There are lots of factions that rely on their battleline. Death Guard and Thousand Sons have straight competitive tournament lists that run 5+ battleline. Ad Mech of every detachment, including the new one, worship at the feet of their battleline. Not just because they're loaded with special weapons, but because they activate insane bonuses like flat AP1 bonus for being within 6" of them. Blood Angel's most dangerous unit is Assault Intercessors running a Captain. Within CSM, they're super dependent upon Legionnaires in Renegade Raiders/Veterans of the Long War and Cultist Mobs in Chaos Cult. Most competitive Orks lists are running Beast Snaggaz or Boyz, in Trukks if they're War Horde or on foot if they're Green Tide. Then there was a Dread Mob player that ran 100 battleline gretchin and took a GT. Invasion Fleet Tyrannids can run a highly competitive spinefist termagaunt spam list. Really, there are just lots of factions that build extremely strong cores around their battlelines. It's just space marines that don't. Hell, even the Astra Militarum detachment wants to run doomstacks of Kriegers (who hit on 2's and re-roll 1's with Take Aim) to protect the now-battleline Scions.
intercessors were before one of the strongest units in the rage of space marines. The utility of that unit is very good for 80 points. Now even more with the nerf to 3" deep strike and the DMG buff. They overshadow all other units in that point range by far.
A long time ago, like 4th-5th Edition long time ago, back when the Force Org charts were a thing, I was big into trying to make the Astartes a horde army. I would just load up on ten-men squads of Tac Marines, sometimes mounted in a Rhino, sometimes not. Their anti-tank was their Sergeant with a Power Fist. (Tanks and other heavy armor were easier to kill back then; Sarge with a Power Fist could do more work than you think.) I'd throw sixty of those guys on the table and dump any remaining points into my HQ, which was always just a Captain and Command Squad. Basically the most generic marine army you can think of. My rationale was "no matter where you are on the table I'm going to direct so much bolter fire at you you'll just die, and if you try and out-horde me with Orks or 'Nids or Guards I've got my 3+ save to hide behind." It wasn't a terribly effective list in actual tournaments, but I won my fair share of games with it because it turns out that that many bolters CAN be difficult to deal with; you have to respect the bolter. Perhaps with the Intercessor changes, the time has come again, and I should dig up my old Tac Marines and proxy them as Intercessors, see how it works.
I've used a list with 20 intersesors and 10 assault intersesors before the changes. It was surprisingly amazing. Now, I think I'll try 30 intersesors and see how that fairs. I'm not sure how 60 will work with no heavy weapons, but who knows
Jokes aside we both know this won't really move combat patrols. Intercessor are already one of the easiest kits to get for cheap either through discount stores or ebay
Honestly this is exactly what we needed Out of them. Finally you have a batlleline unit that can actually remove some Models From the table. I dont understand why Shooting for normal infantry unit has to be so Bad in General in 40k.
I agree with this. To GW's credit, they've done a nice job not only making bolters better, but diversifying their battlefield roles: Intercessors for light infantry, Heavy Intercessors for MEQ equivalents (to a point), and Sternguard punching up and finishing things off.
I am rather tempted to play an Army only using Intercessors (normal, heavy and assault), maybe even the flamer dudes, and charaters. This could be hard to win the point game against this flood of Marines. but I don't have the numbers of models, maybe proxy them for testing. 😂
The Storm Bolter has never felt anywhere near good on tabletop. In video games and lore anything in front of it is torn to shreds.. 2 S4 hits ain't it.
I think it’s clear that GW wanted to make new Smurf players first experience with these guys a “wow these are awesome” moment without really taking balance into account. Let’s be honest having two abilities both sticky and double tap is pretty insane for 80pts
I mean its good for saturation fire against light infantry, but they still aren't likely to be good for much more than clearing chaff. 10th edition is still the edition of 'Everyone and their mother has cover' so that -1 AP doesn't mean much. Though a 5 man unit spitting out 20 shots is still kinda hilarious.
One hand: you're not wrong. Other hand: if 4s in the base statline are gonna stop being special, Astartes should have some bonkers-sounding non-stat abilities to keep small numbers of them scary. They're super-soldiers with literal magic in the genetic enhancement process, a step down from Custodes but still several steps above "a Catachan who doesn't refuse to wear a plate carrier."
Deleted a squad of scouts moving towards me with ten of these. Deleted another five infernus marines the next turn. Finished off half a squad of aggressors the turn after.
For Black Templars they are looking pretty good paired with Castellan and Witchseeker bolts. Maybe even throw em in the back of an Impulsor to utilize that firing deck.
yes its stupid. terminators are a complete joke now. and theyre better than hellblasters too unless you never roll 1s. it gets absolutely horrendous with the +1 to wound from oath of moment too. Now those bolters that are S4 are hitting like theyre S7. Custodes get dropped easily by en masse bolt rifle fire now. Theyve really messed up internal codex balance with this just so they could sell more dark angels and deathwatch combat patrols...
@Khobai what in the world are you waffling about. The new intercessors are good sure but they're not a plasmagun. Not awful shooting mind you, but much worse than Hellblasters plasmagun. Nobody took terminators for the storm bolter either, they took them for the statline and the power fists.
@@DuxDamnatioyes they are heres the math: Intercessor vs space marine = 4/1 2/3 1/2 1/2 = 8/12. Intercessors also get a grenade launcher shot on top of that which puts their damage vs marines above hellblasters. Hellblaster vs space marine = 2/1 2/3 2/3 5/6 = 40/54 = 8.88/12. Intercessors cost 80 points hellblasters cost 115 points. intercessor can also sticky objectives and have OC2. intercessors also get a power fist. So why would I ever use hellblasters again? hellblasters are literally only better if you overcharge every time and dont roll 1s which is statistically unlikely. they are crap now compared to intercessors. "Nobody took terminators for the storm bolter either, they took them for the statline and the power fists." that isnt true. because if it was true people would always take assault terminators instead. people absolutely take terminators for the stormbolters and the cyclone missile launcher. And stormbolters comparatively werent that bad until this intercessor x2 rate of fire nonsense...
@@KhobaiHellblasters are still far better, with strength 8, hitting on 2s, and -3ap, 2 damage each and the chance to shoot 2 times in a turn thanks to hazardous. The only thing going for intercessors is the 80pts.
I love them, but I am still leaning toward running three squads of 10 Sternguard in my Anvil Siege Force instead. But...my two squads of Heavy Intercessors might get bumped for two squads of Intercessors. Just...all the bullets.
They're different roles, and I love that about them. Intercessors excel at wiping chaff. Sternguard *could* do this albeit less efficiently (+20 points, 75% of shots), but they can also reliably finish any unit out there, even without something insane like Fusillade. Heavy Intercessors are--in a funny way--kind of the *anti* intercessor with their storm of 2W shots and T6.
Took 2 5 man squads to a game on Wednesday against a Tyranid force. They absolutely did the business on stickying objectives and shredding gargoyles. Also the volume of fire helped put some hurt on some bigger stuff like lictors
A battle line of space marines clad in heavy power armour, advancing relentlessly, mowing down heretics and xenos with bolters (which are actually powerful now). That's what SM should be about. I always much preferred that concept to having sneaky marines in 'tacticool' style light armour.
Balancing with a Hammer instead of a scalpel. I see a nerf incoming. If the target elimination would only apply if they are stationary it would cause less trouble.
I'm pretty stoked about this. Perhaps playing a MSU space marine army with 3-4 intercessor squads can be really nice, as it gives you enough punch against horde armies as well as the potential to punch up against terminator profiles, or at least soften them up for something else to take them out.
Im so happy about the buff. Felt so lame that the main posterchild unit for SM was basically useless and overshadowed by the specialized units, especially after SM2 and all the media around it. Ill prolly play 2 in lists going forward, maybe more depending on the list. I could easily see blobs of them again. Might not be competitive, but volume of fire is nothing to sneeze at.
One very interesting thing to note about sticky objective, which I haven’t thought of until recently even thou I’ve played with and against sticky objective rules probably a hundred times! Is that if a group of intercessors walk up to an objective in your movement phase, and then in they get shot to bits in your opponents turn - you don’t get sticky objective! That’s huge to me, I just thought it was like, per phase Another interesting thing is if you have made an objective sticky the enemy can’t actually take the objective until the end of their turn Meaning that even if GK, CD, TS or Necrons have a load of units on the midfield objectives, they can’t benefit from their detachment rule since they don’t actually control the objective yet Crazy good!
I'm playing the in squads of 5 and are quite cool. Good screen cleaning, movility as can advance and shoot(I'm using stormlasce so also charge), OC2+sticky, the sergeant fist make them quite nice in melee too, grenades strat helps a lot too. Very usefull unit now.
Played my first game post update with these last night. I normally run 1 squad of 5. Last night I ran 2 squads of 10 and a squad of 5. The punch up really well. Especially with oath of moment and a Lt babysitting them
As a Raven Guard player im definitely running a 10 man unit of these with a Lieutenant and using our +1 AP and BS strat when shooting for 40 shots at S 4 AP 2 hitting on 2s and we have a strat for returning to reserves or running from charges. Sounds super annoying now i think about it not to mention -1 to hit and cover outside of 12 “ when they are shot at😂
Storm bolters are now equivalent to heavy stubbers. Heavy stubbers are now equivalent to heavy bolters. Heavy bolters are now equivalent to autocannons. Autocannons are now equivalent to Tau Rail Cannons. Let’s do this! 😜
It's a little bit mad that Intercessors now flat-out outgun Terminators, who are supposed to be the guys who carry the heaviest weapons. I suppose Cawl never got around to upgrading Storm Bolters. In any case, if you were running the Librarius Conclave, Inquisitor Draxus might be worth a look for Intercessors. She wants to shoot much the same things they do, adds a bit of extra melee, and can reduce the amount of shooting they take, which is pretty useful if you're using them to advance on Objectives and clear them. Certainly if you're playing a Codex chapter and the enemy has the misfortune of being Xenos, they can look forward to that unit potentially having +1 to hit, +1 to wound and full hit re-rolls against them, which is going to put a pretty major dent in any Ork mob.
I took a small squad almost all the time just to sticky my home objective. And in some cases when i was able to hold down the enemy army they stickied 2-3 objective for me, effectively winning the game
I think this is a good choice. Assault intercessors were so much stronger in damage dealing before that no one uses the normal one for more the Objectiv holding. Now it's more even out. Still not game breaking and the wound rerolls are so much stronger for actual Support.
Tactical squads without any special or heavy weapons. Who would re organize an entire galaxy wide army and make the basic troops unable to field special or heavy weapons?
@@codename1176 Not really? Imperium needed space marines to even compete on equal footing with Chaos and Xenos. They're not special and any of the non-Imperium books show you that.
Running 10 with chief librarian Tigurius is great. Opponent is -1 to hit them at range and melee. Tigi provides great D2 attacks and a free overwatch. Combined about 50 shots in overwatch
Forget pulverizing infantry, have a lieutenant lead them with bolter discipline in gladius for sus lethal 40 attacks hitting on 3s sus lethal full rerolls +1 to wound spend the Strat for +1 ap ignore cover and it gets scary against vehicles and monsters too. Anything with a 2+ or a 4+ invul takes like 10-20 wounds on average and anything with a 3+ no invul gets yetis deletus
Ok, but - unit is broken And -Unit is super steong if i: Put a HQ in it Put an enachement on that HQ Use a my army rule on it's target Use a stratagem too Are 2 very different concepts
@ eradicators are good, eradicators with an enhancement and hq single handedly changed the enhancements rule. Units can be broken because of their combo.can you name another 260 point combo that is equally good against tanks as infantry?
The +2A Rule triggers every time the unit shoots single target/doesn't split fire. Overwatch from a 10 Marine Squad will be quite scary. In addition to the Firestorm Detachment the Grenadelauncher profits from the Assault Keyword and the +1S below 12" distance.
Plasmas chew through space marines in general. I always enjoyed intercessors, they aren't stand out, but they were never terrible. I do lean towards assault intercessors to take an objective and heavy intercessors to hold it. Any time I made use of the sticky objective, it didn't really work for me - it almost always gets taken before you score on it because you've left it unattended and the opponent rarely let's that opportunity go.
With Space Marines kinda lacking in cheap anti horde options this new rule really helps them deal with any 20 man squads. I mean for 5 guys you're getting 20 shots plus a grenade launcher. I can see them being good for just destroying any weak chaff units. Maybe just through pure amount of shots do some damage to tougher stuff. Now they feel like a unit that I want to take for more than just being cheapish and sticky objective. Also with them being in almost every freaking discount box, SM players have so many of them you might as well make them tempted to use all the excess units they have.
i dont see how. 60 intercessors seems pretty autowin. they even kill tanks. you dont even need dedicated antitank anymore. you just have to fire enough bolt rifle shots into a tank to kill it.
@@Grassouillelafripouille why not? they can kill anything in the game with oath of moment. even a ctan goes down to mass bolt rifle shots because its half damage ability doesnt help it. theyre also very good at scoring. they can outshoot tau quite easily while being way better in melee and more survivable. 60 intercessor lists are definitely a possibility. you just lack imagination.
@@Khobai in casual play 60 intercessors is possible as you can take what you want, they won't do as much damage against heavier or tankier infantery even if they have a lot of shot. However we might start to see frequently 2 or 3 units of 5.
Just reread that new rule because i thought it was only just once per battle, so every squad has storm bolters with ap -1 and both assault and heavy. So uh my grey knights, with wrist... i repeat wrist attached "psychic" storm bolters get none of these rules. Ok I'm ready for 11th edition I didnt want a new purifer detachment i wanted psychic spells and assault storm bolters.
Hey, how about giving CSM legionary boltguns something similar? Or at least Strength 5 or AP -1 since those are still AP0? Boltguns need a rework across every army, not just for space marines with an ability only Intercessors get.
Why is it possible? I wonder because some of my friends said it is not possible. The distribution of key words is only possible for general space marines. But for Inner Circle, he said it is not possible.
Kinda sad that the basic obj taker unit is now no longer for that and is gonna just be more expensive to make up for their new role. Cause what space marines needed was definately another gunline damage dealer and not cheap flexible units or anything
Disagree. This makes them more of a jack of all trades, which is exactly what a 'tactical' squad should be doing. If you want action monkeys there are outriders, jet pack ints, scouts..
Eh.. doesn't sound great. All of the Redemptor dreads feel a little overpriced and the old mini dread is trash. Probably better to go half dreads, half tanks.
My only issue with this change is it does kinda make the grenade launcher pointless. You cant splitfire it since the rule applies to the unit not the bolt rifle users so its random 1 strong shot isnt that useful now, and the blast profile is weaker than normal rifles now. Free wargear is free though so...meh...
The grenade launcher is in addition to the bolt rifle(the model with the grenade launcher does not replace their bolt rifle for it). You lose nothing, except the option to split fire. To make it clear. A unit of 5 Intercessors have 5 Bolt Rifles and 1 Grenade Launcher, and if they all shoot at 1 target, you get +2 attacks on every Bolt Rifle.
I honestly do not get it. Bolt Rifles were quite good as they were already(compare them to regular Bolters). 2 attacks, S4, AP-1, range 24" with both Heavy and Assault Keywords is not bad for a "standard weapon" on a unit that is meant to help secure objectives. The additional special rule could have been "add 1 to the Bolt Rifle attacks", and it would have been solid. But 2? That is just insane. Especially when combined with a Lieutenant, Oath of Moment, some of the detachment rules or stratagems support. Basically, the Intercessor Bolt Rifle is now just a much better Storm Bolter. Same amount of shots and strength, but can do it from 24"(rather than 12"), has AP -1 and both the Assault and Heavy keywords. Are we to expect similar buffs to basic infantry of other factions?
It's even worse than that. It's completely invalidated the need for most of the other space marine units. Why take hellblasters, scouts, infiltrators or reivers if the heavy intercessor and the intercessor saw damage doubled. In fact why take any anti infantry weapons other than them at all when you'll get more damage with intercessors and heavy intercessors. The buff on heavies saw a pretty significant point increase to justify it but these saw none.
@@lunawense6288 The specialists are still better at their speciality, but the flexible nature of the Intercessors combined with the amount of firepower they add, not just "tips the scales", but flips it over compared to other factions. A unit of Hellblasters supported by a small unit of Intercessors can lay down a massive amount of punishment against any type of infantry targets, while keeping the cost to a minimum and tactical flexibility high. And yes, they are even "not bad" against tougher targets like vehicles and monsters. Grenade strategem+volume fire+grenade launcher, followed by decent melee, can put a lot of damage to a target, for just 80 pts. If I played Daemons, and I see 60 Intercessors on the board, I would probably just forfeit(I would not, but it would not be a fun battle).
u must be new to GW, they do this every time they have a lot of stock of something, and then once they are sold its oops and they get nerfed. its basically their sales strategy for years now. dont meta hunt, u will be dissapointed.
@@mrlakkie1612 That would make sense if it was some obscure/unpopular unit they wanted to sell more of(like Outriders or Reivers). But intercessors have been in several box sets and already sold really well. They are fairly common in non-competetive lists, and even in competetive lists, you see they from time to time due to their sticky objective.
@@elispiller2686 A 10 man squad of guard is 65 pts. It is not far off from the 80 pts for Intercessors. And it is much harder for that guard squad to remove 5 models of intercessors, than it is for the 5 intercessors to remove the guards. Same if you look at tyranids, orcs and a bunch of other factions. The Intercessors do not need to completely kill opposing units. They just need to bring them below 50% so that they have to constantly deal with battleshock. Intercessors have LD6, and are fairly competent in melee, so there are no easy way to negate them, other than outright killing them. And most things that are "cheap and decent/good at killing space marines" are now also very vulnerable to mass Bolt Rifle fire.
My army was hilarious bad 30 intercessors with 3 apothecary 1 leutent 1 captain is now ridiculously meta with anvil siege force lol +1 wound heavy, +1 wound oath = 4+ wound on anything with 40 attacks lol
Its still bad. Ive already tested it. The difference is that before its was worse, like borderline useless, being the sticky objective + "cheap" screening the only reason to take them. It still is. After all the filters a 5 man squad manage to put maybe 3-4 wounds into t4 infantry, its really bad. There is still no reason to take more than a 5 man squad to sit at home objective.
It's not flavor. Bolt rifle has more AP than a fucking Gauss Flayer. You know, that highly advanced weapon that Necrons have as standard that the imperium can't reverse engineer?
@@arn1345 A good point! I just feel like given how powerful they are in books and video games, they should be more powerful on the battlefield. It feels like ten Space Marines should be a serious threat, not a speed-bump. But yeah, juicing the Bolt Rifle so much might be a bit much.
@@geneticwolfman The point is that the guy I responded too was saying the gauss flayers should have more AP than the bolt rifle since they’re more advanced. But gauss flayers inherently have lethal hits, and don’t require a character to be attached. If we’re going that route, then add a Plasmancer to the warriors and now they crit on 5+. Things get better when you add characters.
IDK about "scary". Boosted for sure, but this is not a damage unit and it never has been. It's effective only against light targets, and I can't imagine any list where you want more than a single 5 man unit.
80 pts, and you can clear all units that try to perform a similar role(cheap take and hold). 2 units of 80 pts working together, can handle targets that are far more expensive than they are. Yes, it is not a "damage unit", but when it can wipe out other infantry around its own point cost(60-100 pts) in a single activation, it is scary. And that is on top of its other functions. If I could get a "take and hold" unit with 10 wounds, T4, 3+ save and 20 attacks with 24" range and S4 AP-1, with the heavy and assault keywords(and a grenade launcher, can do grenade strategem and have decent melee), for just 80 pts, I would want it in all my armies. 2-3 of such units will give you so much flexibility and combined firepower. Especially when you have an army rule like Oath of Moment that gives you great reliability. Again, 1 model, shoots 4 times, hits on 3+, with S4 AP-1. On your basic infantry. What does the opposition have? 1-3 shots, S3 or 4, 0 AP. Maybe hitting on 3 or 4s.
it s a "reborn" bolter discipline from 9th edition....or kind of. Seems pretty ok but not overpowered, for even like this, they re still not THAT good to dealin damages... or i guess.
It's hilarious watching (certain) people losing their mind over this. Reminds me of late in 9th when GW announced 10th edition and gave a preview of Oath of Moment. "OMG WTH GW!!! Space Marines will NEVER LOSE A GAME!!!" 10th launches and Marines have a 44%-win rate. 42% after the Oath nerf. Moral of the story: 🥱🥱🥱🥱
GW: Dammit! How do we get people to use more battleline in games?
New Rules Guy: Maybe if they, didn’t suck?
That was New Rules Guy's last day on the job
There are lots of factions that rely on their battleline. Death Guard and Thousand Sons have straight competitive tournament lists that run 5+ battleline. Ad Mech of every detachment, including the new one, worship at the feet of their battleline. Not just because they're loaded with special weapons, but because they activate insane bonuses like flat AP1 bonus for being within 6" of them. Blood Angel's most dangerous unit is Assault Intercessors running a Captain. Within CSM, they're super dependent upon Legionnaires in Renegade Raiders/Veterans of the Long War and Cultist Mobs in Chaos Cult. Most competitive Orks lists are running Beast Snaggaz or Boyz, in Trukks if they're War Horde or on foot if they're Green Tide. Then there was a Dread Mob player that ran 100 battleline gretchin and took a GT. Invasion Fleet Tyrannids can run a highly competitive spinefist termagaunt spam list.
Really, there are just lots of factions that build extremely strong cores around their battlelines. It's just space marines that don't. Hell, even the Astra Militarum detachment wants to run doomstacks of Kriegers (who hit on 2's and re-roll 1's with Take Aim) to protect the now-battleline Scions.
@@Russlem his point still stands that people will play them if, can u imagine, they dont suck.
If only this applies to all non space marines units
intercessors were before one of the strongest units in the rage of space marines. The utility of that unit is very good for 80 points. Now even more with the nerf to 3" deep strike and the DMG buff. They overshadow all other units in that point range by far.
A long time ago, like 4th-5th Edition long time ago, back when the Force Org charts were a thing, I was big into trying to make the Astartes a horde army. I would just load up on ten-men squads of Tac Marines, sometimes mounted in a Rhino, sometimes not. Their anti-tank was their Sergeant with a Power Fist. (Tanks and other heavy armor were easier to kill back then; Sarge with a Power Fist could do more work than you think.) I'd throw sixty of those guys on the table and dump any remaining points into my HQ, which was always just a Captain and Command Squad. Basically the most generic marine army you can think of. My rationale was "no matter where you are on the table I'm going to direct so much bolter fire at you you'll just die, and if you try and out-horde me with Orks or 'Nids or Guards I've got my 3+ save to hide behind."
It wasn't a terribly effective list in actual tournaments, but I won my fair share of games with it because it turns out that that many bolters CAN be difficult to deal with; you have to respect the bolter. Perhaps with the Intercessor changes, the time has come again, and I should dig up my old Tac Marines and proxy them as Intercessors, see how it works.
I've used a list with 20 intersesors and 10 assault intersesors before the changes. It was surprisingly amazing. Now, I think I'll try 30 intersesors and see how that fairs. I'm not sure how 60 will work with no heavy weapons, but who knows
Pretty much a similar strategy with my Repulsar Executioner. All weapons targeting one target. Because "When you Absolutely, Positively want it dead"
GW wasnt selling enough of the combat patrols with 10 intercessors in them
Jokes on them, I'm gonna use my tactical marines as ints
Jokes aside we both know this won't really move combat patrols. Intercessor are already one of the easiest kits to get for cheap either through discount stores or ebay
@@skilledwarman not anymore theyre being bought up like crazy. it will definitely move combat patrols.
There are currently no non-chapter specific combat patrols with intercessors.
@@Khobai it's a blip cause of the buff. If people are patient they'll be able to get them for cheap again
Honestly this is exactly what we needed Out of them.
Finally you have a batlleline unit that can actually remove some Models From the table.
I dont understand why Shooting for normal infantry unit has to be so Bad in General in 40k.
Basic dudes with Bolters should have always been scary and effective, not hit like a wet noodle
Especially considering how many of them GW made us buy with Combat Patrols and Battleforces
Scary? No. Simple and proficient in at least a single task? Yes.
That would also be nice for plague marines, can't justify not taking special weapons instead when your bolters are meh.
I agree with this. To GW's credit, they've done a nice job not only making bolters better, but diversifying their battlefield roles: Intercessors for light infantry, Heavy Intercessors for MEQ equivalents (to a point), and Sternguard punching up and finishing things off.
@@alexanderabramov2719 so as ones with shruikens and pulse rifle
How mad would an opponent be, if I pulled up to a match with 60 intercessors and 20 heavy intercessors
I am rather tempted to play an Army only using Intercessors (normal, heavy and assault), maybe even the flamer dudes, and charaters. This could be hard to win the point game against this flood of Marines.
but I don't have the numbers of models, maybe proxy them for testing. 😂
Personally I'd just be impressed if you painted all of them
as a guard player i’d love it. i have 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber on basically everything and most of my big guns are damage 3
So getting 20 of them a few months ago wasn’t a bad idea
Sad storm bolter noise
Whoever has a storm bolter also tends to be a beast in melee.
And you can split fire.
The Storm Bolter has never felt anywhere near good on tabletop. In video games and lore anything in front of it is torn to shreds.. 2 S4 hits ain't it.
@EruCoolGuy Impulsors are good in Melee?
@EruCoolGuy no AP on storm bolters though, gives most units a 3+ save woth cover
I think it’s clear that GW wanted to make new Smurf players first experience with these guys a “wow these are awesome” moment without really taking balance into account. Let’s be honest having two abilities both sticky and double tap is pretty insane for 80pts
Agreed. It’s simply insane. Imagine 60 of them with new oath. That’s not even half the army.
They should be 100 with how good they are now.
I mean its good for saturation fire against light infantry, but they still aren't likely to be good for much more than clearing chaff. 10th edition is still the edition of 'Everyone and their mother has cover' so that -1 AP doesn't mean much. Though a 5 man unit spitting out 20 shots is still kinda hilarious.
At the same time, i feel battleline arnt really used enough, and think its probably good for theme purposes
@@scotiansaint5679 Not really, considering how easily BoC is to get for a unit.
One hand: you're not wrong.
Other hand: if 4s in the base statline are gonna stop being special, Astartes should have some bonkers-sounding non-stat abilities to keep small numbers of them scary. They're super-soldiers with literal magic in the genetic enhancement process, a step down from Custodes but still several steps above "a Catachan who doesn't refuse to wear a plate carrier."
As a fluffy Imperial Fists player, I run 40 of these and it feels great.
I started my homebrew Fists successor in 9th with running big Intercessor bolter gun lines and now I’ve got them back. It feels so good
Deleted a squad of scouts moving towards me with ten of these. Deleted another five infernus marines the next turn. Finished off half a squad of aggressors the turn after.
Cadia Stands!!!! behind that tall terrain over there
Gotta cover the recently point hiked Heavy Intercessors now
For Black Templars they are looking pretty good paired with Castellan and Witchseeker bolts. Maybe even throw em in the back of an Impulsor to utilize that firing deck.
They have an AP-1 storm bolter without having to go half range
yes its stupid. terminators are a complete joke now. and theyre better than hellblasters too unless you never roll 1s. it gets absolutely horrendous with the +1 to wound from oath of moment too. Now those bolters that are S4 are hitting like theyre S7. Custodes get dropped easily by en masse bolt rifle fire now. Theyve really messed up internal codex balance with this just so they could sell more dark angels and deathwatch combat patrols...
@Khobai what in the world are you waffling about. The new intercessors are good sure but they're not a plasmagun. Not awful shooting mind you, but much worse than Hellblasters plasmagun. Nobody took terminators for the storm bolter either, they took them for the statline and the power fists.
@@DuxDamnatioyes they are heres the math: Intercessor vs space marine = 4/1 2/3 1/2 1/2 = 8/12. Intercessors also get a grenade launcher shot on top of that which puts their damage vs marines above hellblasters.
Hellblaster vs space marine = 2/1 2/3 2/3 5/6 = 40/54 = 8.88/12. Intercessors cost 80 points hellblasters cost 115 points. intercessor can also sticky objectives and have OC2. intercessors also get a power fist. So why would I ever use hellblasters again? hellblasters are literally only better if you overcharge every time and dont roll 1s which is statistically unlikely. they are crap now compared to intercessors.
"Nobody took terminators for the storm bolter either, they took them for the statline and the power fists."
that isnt true. because if it was true people would always take assault terminators instead. people absolutely take terminators for the stormbolters and the cyclone missile launcher. And stormbolters comparatively werent that bad until this intercessor x2 rate of fire nonsense...
@@KhobaiHellblasters are still far better, with strength 8, hitting on 2s, and -3ap, 2 damage each and the chance to shoot 2 times in a turn thanks to hazardous.
The only thing going for intercessors is the 80pts.
@@KhobaiI think you’re forgetting hellblasters also get +1 to wound with oath
I love them, but I am still leaning toward running three squads of 10 Sternguard in my Anvil Siege Force instead. But...my two squads of Heavy Intercessors might get bumped for two squads of Intercessors. Just...all the bullets.
They're different roles, and I love that about them. Intercessors excel at wiping chaff. Sternguard *could* do this albeit less efficiently (+20 points, 75% of shots), but they can also reliably finish any unit out there, even without something insane like Fusillade. Heavy Intercessors are--in a funny way--kind of the *anti* intercessor with their storm of 2W shots and T6.
Took 2 5 man squads to a game on Wednesday against a Tyranid force. They absolutely did the business on stickying objectives and shredding gargoyles. Also the volume of fire helped put some hurt on some bigger stuff like lictors
A battle line of space marines clad in heavy power armour, advancing relentlessly, mowing down heretics and xenos with bolters (which are actually powerful now). That's what SM should be about.
I always much preferred that concept to having sneaky marines in 'tacticool' style light armour.
Balancing with a Hammer instead of a scalpel. I see a nerf incoming. If the target elimination would only apply if they are stationary it would cause less trouble.
I'm pretty stoked about this. Perhaps playing a MSU space marine army with 3-4 intercessor squads can be really nice, as it gives you enough punch against horde armies as well as the potential to punch up against terminator profiles, or at least soften them up for something else to take them out.
Im so happy about the buff. Felt so lame that the main posterchild unit for SM was basically useless and overshadowed by the specialized units, especially after SM2 and all the media around it. Ill prolly play 2 in lists going forward, maybe more depending on the list. I could easily see blobs of them again. Might not be competitive, but volume of fire is nothing to sneeze at.
One very interesting thing to note about sticky objective, which I haven’t thought of until recently even thou I’ve played with and against sticky objective rules probably a hundred times!
Is that if a group of intercessors walk up to an objective in your movement phase, and then in they get shot to bits in your opponents turn - you don’t get sticky objective! That’s huge to me, I just thought it was like, per phase
Another interesting thing is if you have made an objective sticky the enemy can’t actually take the objective until the end of their turn
Meaning that even if GK, CD, TS or Necrons have a load of units on the midfield objectives, they can’t benefit from their detachment rule since they don’t actually control the objective yet
Crazy good!
They changed this, control of an objective flips at the end of each phase.
I'm playing the in squads of 5 and are quite cool. Good screen cleaning, movility as can advance and shoot(I'm using stormlasce so also charge), OC2+sticky, the sergeant fist make them quite nice in melee too, grenades strat helps a lot too. Very usefull unit now.
So happy for the changes overall, looking forward to get some Games in and optimize my Scars list.
Now hybridize them with the Tactical Squad and the Heavy Intercessors with the Devastation Squad so there's a bit less bloat.
Played my first game post update with these last night. I normally run 1 squad of 5. Last night I ran 2 squads of 10 and a squad of 5. The punch up really well. Especially with oath of moment and a Lt babysitting them
As guy who has 4 of these guys, I'm very pleased.
As a Raven Guard player im definitely running a 10 man unit of these with a Lieutenant and using our +1 AP and BS strat when shooting for 40 shots at S 4 AP 2 hitting on 2s and we have a strat for returning to reserves or running from charges. Sounds super annoying now i think about it not to mention -1 to hit and cover outside of 12 “ when they are shot at😂
Or just use an actual good unit like centurions
Don’t for get +1 to wound path target!
As a Dark Angels player, I’m glad that I could get some use out of Intercessors.
So what's the point of Storm bolters and Inferno bolters again? Lmao. Never forget SM is GW's favorite child.
Storm bolters are now equivalent to heavy stubbers.
Heavy stubbers are now equivalent to heavy bolters.
Heavy bolters are now equivalent to autocannons.
Autocannons are now equivalent to Tau Rail Cannons.
Let’s do this! 😜
It's a little bit mad that Intercessors now flat-out outgun Terminators, who are supposed to be the guys who carry the heaviest weapons. I suppose Cawl never got around to upgrading Storm Bolters. In any case, if you were running the Librarius Conclave, Inquisitor Draxus might be worth a look for Intercessors. She wants to shoot much the same things they do, adds a bit of extra melee, and can reduce the amount of shooting they take, which is pretty useful if you're using them to advance on Objectives and clear them. Certainly if you're playing a Codex chapter and the enemy has the misfortune of being Xenos, they can look forward to that unit potentially having +1 to hit, +1 to wound and full hit re-rolls against them, which is going to put a pretty major dent in any Ork mob.
A bolt is a smal rocket... now people will fear it for what it is 😁
I took a small squad almost all the time just to sticky my home objective. And in some cases when i was able to hold down the enemy army they stickied 2-3 objective for me, effectively winning the game
I think this is a good choice. Assault intercessors were so much stronger in damage dealing before that no one uses the normal one for more the Objectiv holding. Now it's more even out. Still not game breaking and the wound rerolls are so much stronger for actual Support.
Tactical squads without any special or heavy weapons. Who would re organize an entire galaxy wide army and make the basic troops unable to field special or heavy weapons?
It really feels like a rebirth of the Legion style organization of units, with lots of squads being single loadouts for specific jobs.
@@ShadowGhost0117 Yeah they conquered the galaxy with basic Legion squads.. makes sense that Bobby G would approve
Someone who doesn’t want to have to roll for 6 different weapon profiles for one unit’s shooting.
Personally, I’m a big fan of Marine infantry, being you know, fucking terrifying.
As they are supposed to be in lore
@@codename1176 Not really? Imperium needed space marines to even compete on equal footing with Chaos and Xenos. They're not special and any of the non-Imperium books show you that.
Black Templars can give lethal hits to up to 6, 10 man squads with 3 LTs and 3 Castellans. I want to try bolterstorm now
Running 10 with chief librarian Tigurius is great. Opponent is -1 to hit them at range and melee. Tigi provides great D2 attacks and a free overwatch. Combined about 50 shots in overwatch
Forget pulverizing infantry, have a lieutenant lead them with bolter discipline in gladius for sus lethal 40 attacks hitting on 3s sus lethal full rerolls +1 to wound spend the Strat for +1 ap ignore cover and it gets scary against vehicles and monsters too. Anything with a 2+ or a 4+ invul takes like 10-20 wounds on average and anything with a 3+ no invul gets yetis deletus
Ok, but
- unit is broken
And
-Unit is super steong if i:
Put a HQ in it
Put an enachement on that HQ
Use a my army rule on it's target
Use a stratagem too
Are 2 very different concepts
@ eradicators are good, eradicators with an enhancement and hq single handedly changed the enhancements rule. Units can be broken because of their combo.can you name another 260 point combo that is equally good against tanks as infantry?
The +2A Rule triggers every time the unit shoots single target/doesn't split fire. Overwatch from a 10 Marine Squad will be quite scary.
In addition to the Firestorm Detachment the Grenadelauncher profits from the Assault Keyword and the +1S below 12" distance.
The out of sequence rules would mean they don’t get the extra shots
@@AngryAcolyte Are you sure? The Intercessor ability seems to be carefully written to not avoid mentioning the shooting phase.
@@AngryAcolyte but their rule just says "when selected to shoot", it doesn't say "in your shooting phase". I would assume that it works for Overwatch.
Plasmas chew through space marines in general. I always enjoyed intercessors, they aren't stand out, but they were never terrible. I do lean towards assault intercessors to take an objective and heavy intercessors to hold it. Any time I made use of the sticky objective, it didn't really work for me - it almost always gets taken before you score on it because you've left it unattended and the opponent rarely let's that opportunity go.
With Space Marines kinda lacking in cheap anti horde options this new rule really helps them deal with any 20 man squads. I mean for 5 guys you're getting 20 shots plus a grenade launcher. I can see them being good for just destroying any weak chaff units. Maybe just through pure amount of shots do some damage to tougher stuff. Now they feel like a unit that I want to take for more than just being cheapish and sticky objective.
Also with them being in almost every freaking discount box, SM players have so many of them you might as well make them tempted to use all the excess units they have.
I have had 2 squads of them in my Flamestorm army. Now its just so much better. 20 shots at Str 5 at 12 inches. A lot to like.
I'm going to start digging graves for all my Hormagaunts right now.
@@Peter_Wendt Just eat them, no wasting biomass
@Peter_Wendt Funny you should bring up Nids. Im playing a 3k game against them on Saturday.
@@jakenewman1084 3000 is a lot of bugs! Good luck!
Intercessors vs tzaangors…
Their battle will be legendary!
space marine players will still somehow manage a 40% winrate with these buffs :p
i dont see how. 60 intercessors seems pretty autowin. they even kill tanks. you dont even need dedicated antitank anymore. you just have to fire enough bolt rifle shots into a tank to kill it.
@@Khobai 60 intercessors isn't autowin at all, they are strong now but you will never take 60 of them
Don’t you threaten me with a good time there good buddy.😂
@@Grassouillelafripouille why not? they can kill anything in the game with oath of moment. even a ctan goes down to mass bolt rifle shots because its half damage ability doesnt help it. theyre also very good at scoring. they can outshoot tau quite easily while being way better in melee and more survivable. 60 intercessor lists are definitely a possibility. you just lack imagination.
@@Khobai in casual play 60 intercessors is possible as you can take what you want, they won't do as much damage against heavier or tankier infantery even if they have a lot of shot. However we might start to see frequently 2 or 3 units of 5.
I ended up with a ton of them from my Dark Angels boxes and I was planning on using them anyway so I'm fine with these developments lol
I was already running 2 units of 5 in most lists. I see no reason to change that.
I feel pretty safe in saying that Assault Intercessors might be the least taken Intercessors for a bit.
Vanguard marines have the strat for extra and hit roll that works well with the lt
That...seems like a crazy increase
10 dropping in from deep strike using ventris deep strike power with character for lethal hits and another 10 in a drop pod
Just reread that new rule because i thought it was only just once per battle, so every squad has storm bolters with ap -1 and both assault and heavy.
So uh my grey knights, with wrist... i repeat wrist attached "psychic" storm bolters get none of these rules. Ok I'm ready for 11th edition I didnt want a new purifer detachment i wanted psychic spells and assault storm bolters.
True to lore, we’re entirely hidden to the rules makers.
I can't wait to use them in Anvil.
4 shots, hitting on 2+, with a +1 to wound.. oh thats nice
How coincidental that I just made a non-keyworded LAG army with 60 intercessors and 3 lieutenants. +1 to wound oath and 4 attacks at str 6 in melee.
Hey, how about giving CSM legionary boltguns something similar? Or at least Strength 5 or AP -1 since those are still AP0?
Boltguns need a rework across every army, not just for space marines with an ability only Intercessors get.
DeathCompany Intercessor's still stack up, they have 2 more melee weapons, free overwatch and heroic and hit rerollsas well as a 6+++
More points for half the OC, half the shooting and needing a Chaplain babysitter.
Not even close. Just take regular DC.
Why is it possible? I wonder because some of my friends said it is not possible. The distribution of key words is only possible for general space marines. But for Inner Circle, he said it is not possible.
I wonder how well they would work with Chief Librarian Tigurus for free overwatch each turn
Kinda sad that the basic obj taker unit is now no longer for that and is gonna just be more expensive to make up for their new role. Cause what space marines needed was definately another gunline damage dealer and not cheap flexible units or anything
Disagree. This makes them more of a jack of all trades, which is exactly what a 'tactical' squad should be doing.
If you want action monkeys there are outriders, jet pack ints, scouts..
Stormlance 5 in an impulser it can advance then they can get out shoot with 20 shots then impulser charges and tank shocks somthing
Is 9 dreadnoughts a bad idea for a 2k points list? Barely related 'cause intercessors are there to fill out the list
Eh.. doesn't sound great. All of the Redemptor dreads feel a little overpriced and the old mini dread is trash.
Probably better to go half dreads, half tanks.
I mean straight-up doubling their damage output is /one/ way to make bolters feel strong. XD
It's more than double with the Oath buff
its a fricken stormbolter on roids 😮
Defo way more OP point for point than fire warriors
My only issue with this change is it does kinda make the grenade launcher pointless. You cant splitfire it since the rule applies to the unit not the bolt rifle users so its random 1 strong shot isnt that useful now, and the blast profile is weaker than normal rifles now.
Free wargear is free though so...meh...
The grenade launcher is in addition to the bolt rifle(the model with the grenade launcher does not replace their bolt rifle for it). You lose nothing, except the option to split fire.
To make it clear. A unit of 5 Intercessors have 5 Bolt Rifles and 1 Grenade Launcher, and if they all shoot at 1 target, you get +2 attacks on every Bolt Rifle.
I honestly do not get it. Bolt Rifles were quite good as they were already(compare them to regular Bolters). 2 attacks, S4, AP-1, range 24" with both Heavy and Assault Keywords is not bad for a "standard weapon" on a unit that is meant to help secure objectives.
The additional special rule could have been "add 1 to the Bolt Rifle attacks", and it would have been solid. But 2? That is just insane. Especially when combined with a Lieutenant, Oath of Moment, some of the detachment rules or stratagems support.
Basically, the Intercessor Bolt Rifle is now just a much better Storm Bolter. Same amount of shots and strength, but can do it from 24"(rather than 12"), has AP -1 and both the Assault and Heavy keywords.
Are we to expect similar buffs to basic infantry of other factions?
It's even worse than that. It's completely invalidated the need for most of the other space marine units. Why take hellblasters, scouts, infiltrators or reivers if the heavy intercessor and the intercessor saw damage doubled. In fact why take any anti infantry weapons other than them at all when you'll get more damage with intercessors and heavy intercessors. The buff on heavies saw a pretty significant point increase to justify it but these saw none.
@@lunawense6288 The specialists are still better at their speciality, but the flexible nature of the Intercessors combined with the amount of firepower they add, not just "tips the scales", but flips it over compared to other factions.
A unit of Hellblasters supported by a small unit of Intercessors can lay down a massive amount of punishment against any type of infantry targets, while keeping the cost to a minimum and tactical flexibility high.
And yes, they are even "not bad" against tougher targets like vehicles and monsters. Grenade strategem+volume fire+grenade launcher, followed by decent melee, can put a lot of damage to a target, for just 80 pts.
If I played Daemons, and I see 60 Intercessors on the board, I would probably just forfeit(I would not, but it would not be a fun battle).
u must be new to GW, they do this every time they have a lot of stock of something, and then once they are sold its oops and they get nerfed. its basically their sales strategy for years now. dont meta hunt, u will be dissapointed.
@@mrlakkie1612 That would make sense if it was some obscure/unpopular unit they wanted to sell more of(like Outriders or Reivers). But intercessors have been in several box sets and already sold really well. They are fairly common in non-competetive lists, and even in competetive lists, you see they from time to time due to their sticky objective.
Probably a good thing you can’t put SIA on them.. 40 A wounding infantry on 2’s would b a problem
I mean, against anything Toughness 3, they are wounding them on 2s if they are the Oath of Moment target and you are using "vanilla" SM.
@ sure, though wounding Terminators on a 2+ with 40 shots on a 160point unit would be crazy. T3 units tend to be much cheaper in points.
@@elispiller2686 A 10 man squad of guard is 65 pts. It is not far off from the 80 pts for Intercessors. And it is much harder for that guard squad to remove 5 models of intercessors, than it is for the 5 intercessors to remove the guards.
Same if you look at tyranids, orcs and a bunch of other factions.
The Intercessors do not need to completely kill opposing units. They just need to bring them below 50% so that they have to constantly deal with battleshock. Intercessors have LD6, and are fairly competent in melee, so there are no easy way to negate them, other than outright killing them.
And most things that are "cheap and decent/good at killing space marines" are now also very vulnerable to mass Bolt Rifle fire.
lol they gave them Fury of the Legion. Marines getting more and more 30k by the minute.
Oh I do hope so, 30k is best k
My army was hilarious bad 30 intercessors with 3 apothecary 1 leutent 1 captain is now ridiculously meta with anvil siege force lol +1 wound heavy, +1 wound oath = 4+ wound on anything with 40 attacks lol
They don't stack, you don't get more than +1 to hit or wound.
Still good though.
I wouldn't run them in 10, but 5-man squad would still do the trick, I guess? DA players can't reroll wounds for OOM so...
The only unit that can reroll wounds are Sternguard. For every other unit in a core codex army, it's "just" +1 to wound.
Well the day of Tactical squad is over huh? Well better getting them and Devastator squad before the squatting
I just run my Tacticals as ints
Do Intercessors outshine Aggressors now? 😢
Yes. Good riddance, Aggressors are ugly af
Yes
Its still bad. Ive already tested it. The difference is that before its was worse, like borderline useless, being the sticky objective + "cheap" screening the only reason to take them. It still is. After all the filters a 5 man squad manage to put maybe 3-4 wounds into t4 infantry, its really bad. There is still no reason to take more than a 5 man squad to sit at home objective.
tbh should have just been rapid fire 1.
wouldn't have been enough
why wouldn't you just put them in a rino?
Intercessors have sticky and storm bolters, tactical marines the overpowered ability to be splint in two squads 😢😢 I'm sad
I approve for flavour reasons, but disapprove for playing against Space Marines reasons.
It's not flavor. Bolt rifle has more AP than a fucking Gauss Flayer. You know, that highly advanced weapon that Necrons have as standard that the imperium can't reverse engineer?
@@arn1345 A good point! I just feel like given how powerful they are in books and video games, they should be more powerful on the battlefield. It feels like ten Space Marines should be a serious threat, not a speed-bump. But yeah, juicing the Bolt Rifle so much might be a bit much.
@@arn1345
Kind of conveniently leaving out that gauss flayers have lethal hits…
@@rickkcir2151 and a squad of Intercessors do too if a Liuetenant happens to be standing next to them. What's your point?
@@geneticwolfman
The point is that the guy I responded too was saying the gauss flayers should have more AP than the bolt rifle since they’re more advanced. But gauss flayers inherently have lethal hits, and don’t require a character to be attached. If we’re going that route, then add a Plasmancer to the warriors and now they crit on 5+. Things get better when you add characters.
Should bring back the previous blood angels combat patrol and rebrand as the basic space marines one. Current one is bad value
IDK about "scary". Boosted for sure, but this is not a damage unit and it never has been. It's effective only against light targets, and I can't imagine any list where you want more than a single 5 man unit.
80 pts, and you can clear all units that try to perform a similar role(cheap take and hold). 2 units of 80 pts working together, can handle targets that are far more expensive than they are. Yes, it is not a "damage unit", but when it can wipe out other infantry around its own point cost(60-100 pts) in a single activation, it is scary. And that is on top of its other functions.
If I could get a "take and hold" unit with 10 wounds, T4, 3+ save and 20 attacks with 24" range and S4 AP-1, with the heavy and assault keywords(and a grenade launcher, can do grenade strategem and have decent melee), for just 80 pts, I would want it in all my armies.
2-3 of such units will give you so much flexibility and combined firepower. Especially when you have an army rule like Oath of Moment that gives you great reliability.
Again, 1 model, shoots 4 times, hits on 3+, with S4 AP-1. On your basic infantry. What does the opposition have? 1-3 shots, S3 or 4, 0 AP. Maybe hitting on 3 or 4s.
Add a comment...😮
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@Peter_Wendt reply...
Wow i have 80 of them. Poor be thy opponents
it s a "reborn" bolter discipline from 9th edition....or kind of.
Seems pretty ok but not overpowered, for even like this, they re still not THAT good to dealin damages... or i guess.
Standard Troop Space Marines should always have been scary to face. It's just that typically the Elite choices are scarier.
Sorry to change the subject, do you have a video ranking the Chaos Marines (best to worst) that’s current?
Sell a bunch of stock, nerf the unit down to +1 attack and lose the AP before 11th and bam. Money made, stock cleared out.
Standard GW operating procedure. Remember when Aggressors could shoot twice if stationary and had twice the shots?
39 seconds since the video was uploaded? I am late.
You just figured this out?..must have watched real streams
warhammer players are genuinely never happy i’m exhausted of this community
Scary not really
I think this is too much for 80 points...
and yet they are still very boring and not able to bring heavy or support weapons.
Holy shit, orks with T5 might be the only horde still viable in the face of that.
Hey, while we're at it, can we maybe give an ability like that to Shoota Boyz? Our poor Dakka-ladz have been completely unviable for 2 editions.
It's hilarious watching (certain) people losing their mind over this. Reminds me of late in 9th when GW announced 10th edition and gave a preview of Oath of Moment. "OMG WTH GW!!! Space Marines will NEVER LOSE A GAME!!!" 10th launches and Marines have a 44%-win rate. 42% after the Oath nerf. Moral of the story: 🥱🥱🥱🥱
This, marine players are so tarded that it's beyond saving lmao