Gaijin Has Limited This Plane: F-16A ADF (War Thunder)
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
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F-16: Limited to 9Gs
Zeros: Pulls sustained 12G turns
sagitar or whatever it is called in it tech tree puls 15 sustained gs
rocket powered I-153 (50g)
Me who pulls sustained 17g in AB
I’ve seen the 163 pull 30Gs in arcade. No FBW needed
Fly by r o k e t
Altough the fly by wire system was a very important system in real life and gave the pilots that used them a lot of advantages, in warthunder all it is is a huge nerf to the ability to turn for the F-16
this will be on all aircraft going forward
@@dbzfanexwarbrady yeah no it wont. and if it is, those aircraft will not be used over the superior f14
@@sulferix7265 habibi come to dcs 💃
@@sulferix7265 A lot of aircraft going forward will use G-Limiters, especially Western airframes, the Hornet is limited to 7.5G with the limiter although it can be turned off in the Hornet.
@@Series-One this is war thunder, not dcs. The f-14 does not have these limits in game.
Spit, don't use flaps when you're slow. They're actually hurting your maneuverability. The plane has leading edge slats on the wings that automatically adjust depending on speed and AOA, think of them like automatic combat flaps. When you activate your takeoff or landing flaps, you're preventing the leading edge slats from doing what they're supposed to do, and hurting your turn performance
Is this only on the f-16? Should you still use your flaps in dogfights with other jets/props?
@@henryfraipont9343 yes, leading edge slats are generally more of a 4th gen thing
That's an excellent tip. Thank you.
Does the a4e have a earlier version of these? If so do the combat flaps hurt its turn time
@@J-Kabar just look ay the aircraft. If it has flaps on the leading edge they probably activate during turns
I don’t think people realize how much of a monster the F16 genuinely was. It is truly insane, and gaijin has definitely nerfed it into a coma.
Is*
It's still the workhorse of the air force.
@@ricardohumildebrabo exactly although heavily updated the things one of the best aircraft in the skies
Its not really that. It is probably performing a little poorly with the AOA limiters at higher speeds, but that was a safety feature of the F-16 to prevent rapid onset of G-Loc.
Its more that older planes like the F-14, F-4 Mig-21 and Mig-23 are able to perform WAY WAY beyond their means of performance because of the crew skills and G-Loc systsems, which killed a lot of pilots due to them losing conciousness. Most of these aircraft would RARELY exceed 7g in a dogfight, but in warthunder are able to due ridiculous turns at would never be possible IRL
@John W GoldMountain
The AOA limiters are not to prevent Gloc. The aircraft will depart controlled flight before a trained, Gsuited experienced pilot will gloc if AOA beyond 35 degrees is attempted.
The airplane is inherently unstable, which is why it is FBW
This was deliberate, it allows for "relaxed stability" and the ability to manuver within its intended flight envelope in a manner that was never before seen in a fighter aircraft. (In the late 1970s)
It also cannot be flown by a human to remain stable it requires too many imputs, faster than human muscle memory or the human mind can handle. Hence the FCS - the pilot tells the computer what he wants the plane to do, the plane does it - it also makes the needed adjustments to the control surfaces thousands of micro adjustments per second to keep the airplane flying level, and "in control". if the FCS fails. The F16 is a dead bird. It cannot go into a manual reversion. You egress the aircraft, it is no longer controllable.
So, because the aircraft is inherently unstable there are corners to the flight envelope that even the FCS cannot cope with and keep the plane flying in control.
That's what the AOA limiter is for. its to keep the pilot (and the FCS) from putting the airplane in one of those "coffin corners" and departing the plane... which in the F16, WILL occur at 36 degrees AOA.
The plane WILL depart along the yaw axis if AOA in excess of 35 degrees is attempted, it will enter an unrecoverable spin and the pilot will have to abandon the aircraft.
The little ventral fins on the belly aft of the main wings are there to delay this departure along the yaw axis at high (for the F16) AOA, but they can not eliminate this behavior completely.
Tbh it'd suck to play the MiG-29 even more if it was realistic. There's a reason it has like a 70 something aircraft kills vs two shootdowns IRL and the MiG has barely 1:1, and it's not just the pilot skill.
Not really a fan of the G-Limiter, I like the idea that you have to manage your turn rates and rip speeds like any other jet, instead of being artificially limited because of some irl boringness.
If the Sturmtiger can have a 50s reload instead of a 2 minute reload then this thing can have an unrestricted turn rate.
Thank god I'm not the only one who thought this. I was worried my expectations were unrealistically high for this thing, though I knew it wasn't a skill issue because other planes I would fly regularly were no different and I could still kick ass (assuming the enemy was dumber than me, which at 10.0 hard)
Imagine gaijin giving us the option to turn off the limiter, but whenever we pull more than 9g, the wing breaks
most planes, under the turns in war thunder, do rip apart and warp beyond repair irl
@@charlescourtwright2229 i mean its gaijin, they wont give us anything without taking something else away
I'm not sure if it's the Gripen or the Rafale that irl has a 9G limiter that can be turned off allowing the plane to pull 11G for emergency situations.
@@brunobegic3841 thunderbirds pilots can pull more than 9G in their F16 so I think the limiter can be turned off ?
According to Gaijin, the maneuverability in-game is supposed to be “1.5x the structural limit.” Makes no sense why they added a G-limiter on this plane. Balance maybe?
same with mig29, feels like im flying a brick whenever i go above 500kmph and try to turn
agree. i recomend using the airbrakes for realy hard truns works amazing
Feels more like it becomes a brick as soon as I go under 500km/h
Definitely doesn't brick up as hard as the F-16, you can pull 9G in that and 10-11 in the 29. I do think it's missing some AOA though
@@dti1312 dude the mig 29 is laughably under preforming in the low speed regime, under 350 KTS it should easily turn inside the F-16A but the F-16 beats it in the 1 circle.
It’s miss some AOA I’m unsure if the model can cobra but the 29 is know to be able there cobra genuinely but can’t in game when spaded and ace crew
Regarding the realism of the g limiter, the f16 has a soft aoa limiter. This means when the f16 reaches 25 degrees of AOA the fly by wire system reduces the input you can place on the system, this can be bypassed by the pilot.Up to 35 degrees of AOA results in the hard limit activating, this means the f16 returns elevator inclination to neutral
TL:DR F16 should have a soft aoa limiter which can be bypassed by the pilot and a hard aoa limiter, not a g limiter
Edit: Soft limiter is 25 degrees
Hard limiter is 35 degrees
Didn't know that I assumed it had a similar G limiter that can be overriden.
However the AOA limiter does keep the aircraft under 10 G almost all of the time. It ranges from very difficult to impossible to go above 9 since that's the structural limit of the airframe and the turning ability of the plane is designed around it. Honestly the viper is working fine in WT, people have just become too comfortable with an unrealistic method of fighting (full speed all the time) and it's starting to cause problems.
@@sometoastxd Probably because it locks up super hard compared to the MLD and F-14A that can still turn pretty darn well above 1000kmh, transitioning from that to the Viper and maybe the MiG-29 will throw off a lot people.
The soft limiter is 25° AOA, and pilot input to flight controls is gradually decreases by the fly by wire until 35°, which is the hard limiter. Everything else you said is correct
@@sometoastxd "Honestly the viper is working fine in WT, people have just become too comfortable with an unrealistic method of fighting (full speed all the time) and it's starting to cause problems." if the viper is working fine in WT then so is the MIG29, currently they both pull 22-23 degrees AOA at 700km/h (MIG29 does so at about 800km/h) and the MIG29 performs a bit better then the F16 at 1000km/h+.
9:37 A MISSILE KNOWS WHERE IT IS
From what I hear the FBW systems use historically accurate limits (e.g 9Gs) while planes without it have their limits increased. If both were treated the same, I think the new planes would be more in line with the planes without FBW
This. In other aircraft you're able to pull a loads that would cripple the pilot, jam the flaps, break the flight control actuators, ect ect
@@d.thieud.1056 yeah exactly my mig 23 I go into turns at around Mach .97 and can pull like 13-14gs, almost black out and make a complete U-turn really quickly whilst keeping a load of the speed. F16 tho pulls about 6gs and has a 3-5 day delivery time on turning above 750 kmh
most jets have x1.5 maneuvrability
@@thcfck6870 structural limit, not maneuvrability
@@Texas_Engineer_Mike it's both
6:13 Basically, from using the F-16, it’s sweet spot for maneuvering is between 600 and 800kph rather than below 600, which is why you were able to turn really fast there.
And F-16 rips around the circle insanely fast at around 750kph (around 400 kts) which is the best deck rate fighting speed. though u do have to be careful to not let the after burner out accelerate away from the speed, or use keyboard control to "neg" G to prevent airspeed from dropping too rapidly
most warthunder players enter a merge going mach infinity and still wonder why they can't turn that well
Seems to be something that a lot of War Thunder players don't realize. Every plane has a unique and specific "sweet spot" for maximum turn performance. Some planes turn better at low speeds, others only at very high speeds, and most are somewhere in-between. I would expect any experienced player to already know this. Simply by test flying a plane you can quickly discover it's sweet spot and fly accordingly.
They just need to add too many G's killing your pilot then the fly by wire addition would make sense 🤣
You really couldn’t pull enough Gs in an F-16 to kill you
Yes. G-tolerance needs a serious nerf across the board.
Agreed. Would also help out some of the worse planes too, like the F-104
people dont die from pulling 13gs
@@ferrous3262 not instant, sustained yes and can cause spinal damage in an instant though.
Spit, there are some mistakes you're making with the F-16. The F-16's best rate speed is around 800km/h and the MiG-29's is closer to 650km/h. In that dogfight with the MiG-29 you ended up slowing down way too much, putting you into the MiG-29's best rate speed regime, and giving him a leg up in the two circle fight in addition to it's better one circle abilities. Then you ended up going one circle with him when you had to dump the nose because you stalled yourself out. Even though you started with an advantage he slowly started to pull some of that advantage back into his favor due to the mistakes you made.
The F-16 in a two circle at it's best rate speeds is a monster in War Thunder, so just like any other plane, it's best to force fights into regimes where your plane's characteristics give you the upper hand in the fight.
it occurred to me that most wt pilots don't even know how to fly and try and turn fight at supersonic speeds then cry when their planes doesn't perform at its best
Like I understand that WT wants to add realistic aspects to the game it’s great and fantastic to a certain degree. The Gimp-16 however is ruined by it. The Tomcat can hit 13Gs wings fully swept at 800kmh, the MiG-21Bis can hit 11Gs at 1100kmh, the Gimp-16 even with the shadow buff to its flight performance at higher speeds hits a maximum of 7G to 9Gs at 1100 on the deck(lower at higher altitudes due to low energy after a climb and WT spaghetti code). It’s maximum turn capability starts to kick in towards 600 to 700 kmh (150 battles tested, 20 hours of test flight testing with 4 AIM9Ls, 2 AIM-7M, and with drop tank running at 20 minutes of Gas). Although many have said the F-16 is better than the MiG-29 in this update, I’d say both of them are screwed by becoming Tomcat food. The APG-66 on the ADF, MLU, and Block-10 doesn’t have HDN while the APG-66J has HDN (EJ Kai) while to some it doesn’t seem like much of a difference many may notice that the AIM-7Ms will miss easy targets when comparing to the AWG-9 on the Tomcat with its AIM-7Fs.
The problem is not to fix the F-16, it's to make every other plane immediately reduce their pilot to a fine pink slush whenever they do such a thing.
@@TheFanatical1 I agree. We should reduce pilot's G-force endurance
Heres what I do in top tier, for every 60 seconds: I spend 25-30 looking at my target, 10 looking behind me, 10 looking left and right and 10 looking up
5:55 "Think there's something going on here" Yeah, you're attempting to dogfight at 215 knots in an F-16 with your flaps down.
Note how the nose whips around at 6:13 when around 400 knots, keep that airspeed up! (but not too fast)
I think people misunderstand high manueverability... yes, the F 16 IRL was designed for good maneuverability in order to be an amazing dogfighter, but it did have a g limiter. IRL, you do not dogfight at mach one, you dogfight at a much lower speed, which is modeled in game with the F 16 being one of the best dogfighters in the game. At high speed, pulling 7 to 9 gs is a lot, and IRL it would not be pulling more than that. My case, is that the F 16 is decently realistic. I mean, my dad was an F 18 pilot, they did not pull more than 7 and SOMETIMES 9 gs when going that fast. AT low speeds, you can turn tighter without pulling as high a number of Gs. I think people are just to used to gaijin's other planes that pull like 13 gs regularly...
I've also flown it in SIM, and the flight characteristics feel decently realistic there, kinda like DCS. But guys, I don't want to get into debates about the F 16, this is just my understanding and experience.
I love the F 16... even though it's a little limited. First, don't use the flaps, they actually hinder you, and they break off very easily. I maintain around 300 to 400 mph in a rate fight (yes, I'm American) and I can rip into anyones circle basically. Also, don't be afraid to slow down the turn a bit to gain lost speed, if you get too slow through turning, even with afterburner, you can lose. DOn't always stamp on the elevator. Fighting mig 29s is tricky though. But yes, aiming the gun is hard. Also, I recommend firing your 7Ms at above mach one.... it helps a lot with reliable kills.
They way I play it rn, is to fly far left, climb to 20k feet, turn in, get to mach 1.10, fire my 7ms, get a kill or 2, and then dive and fire as many 9Ls on people's heads as possible and run away. Then I come in and dogfight the remainders.
Trade offer:
a) Buy the DCS F16 module for 70$ and do whatever TF you want with it and get fully immersed
b) Spend unreasonably long time, huge frustration, maybe more than 70$ to even get somewhere in WT and finally research the F16 just to realize that it's once again second hand saved plane from scrapyard
The choice is yours. I spend the same money in DCS and WT (Around 150$ each) and you can guess which game I'll stick to now. Don't really wanna shit talk WT but they should've stayed in the Cold War era.
dcs is just larp
A G limiter is really common in western fighter jets, its to protect the airframe from being damaged due to high speed maneuvers.
yes, but you cant g limit one plane while having others that dont have such things.. many frames shouldnt even do 6gs but do 12gs.. its idiotic game development
Not really surprising that your missile tracked that F14. The Su17 was mostly in the frontal aspect and that F14 merged in front of you mostly on the rear aspect.
Also btw, the ADF is the only f16 in game the struggles to rate fight, use the regular F-16A or the MLU, also when in the rate fight sustain 380 knots on the F-16A ADF that is the best rate speed while turning as sharp as possible. Lower the 350 knots and you'll struggle or won't do shit, you can translate the speeds just mentioned to your preferred speeds in game. Use a calculator or ask Google.
playing the F-16, I found that it is the best plane at turning, when at a VERY specific velocity. If you go at all too fast, it locks up and doesn't let you pull more than 5G or something stupid. If you go too slow, it has no energy. If you have JUST 750-800 km/h IAS, the plane makes a 180 in a second. You really notice it when you go about 1000km/h IAS, turn off after burner, and try to make the sharpest turn you can. It goes so miserably wide, wide wide wiiiiiiide wid- OH SHIT WHERE DID THIS SUDDEN 180 TURN COME FROM?????
The issue is that this jet is not a bus, it flys similarly to how it would IRL. The issue comes from all other planes exceeding max Gs on normal turns. Pilots IRL are trained not do do that, but in warthunder they don’t give a shit
Coming from DCS you really have to overlead and let the enemy fall into your gunsights. You need to pull lead to get guns on target effectively. The F16 just doesnt let you pull a lot of AOA due to the FBW system, as well as the G load.
Fact is that the flight performance of this aircraft is pretty realistic, problem is that older jets such as the Mig-21/23, F4 phantom and even F-14 are able to perform well beyond their realistic means due to the crew system where 7g has exactly the same effect on the pilot as 12g or even 15g. Realistically, if you pull more than 12g for more than a few seconds, you would G-Loc almost instantly. and the higher G that you lose conciousness at, the longer you would be unconcious for and the more severe the effect. Whereas a well training pilot would be able to pull 7g for minuites at a time, and in specific situations, go up to 9g for a couple of seconds at a time.
in Warthunder, your crew skill being a pay2win system where by default, everybody G-Locs at 5g, but this can increase to 6.9g with skills and the flight suit module. When you go above this number stated in your crew skill, you will G-Loc untill your pilot loses all their "stamina" which is another crew skill affected by the pay to win system. Whether you are pulling 7.2g or 13g, this is always the same amount of time to lose conciousness. Over time, the maximum stamina will be reduced to a cap of about 50%. Higher skill crews this reduces more slowly as well.
So this means that the older planes which would let pilots pull these ridiculous G's end up being much more capable at pulling tighter turns, with little to no consequence when it should really knock the pilot out within a few seconds, especially if they have maxed out crew skills and the additonal GE/SL straining modifiers for the plane.
5:35 "the plane is limited" he says while throttling DOWN, below the corner speed of the aircraft and committing full elevator turn lmao. That's nothing but a good way to hemorrhage your energy and let him reel you in
The problem with the viper is that it compresses horribly but even worse is that it’s pulls harder than any aircraft at top tier at low speeds like 300 kt.
In the dog fight during both sim and air rb, the f16 dominates the MiG 29. They need to buff the high speed pull and lower the low speed pull
the burn time of the 7f sparrow is around 13 seconds if im not wrong.. 2s booster + 11 second sustainer if iirc
So I've been playing the F-16 a lot. And it's not really the plane that is the problem, it is the way you are flying it.
The common saying "speed is life" doesn't apply here. I try to keep my F-16 under Mach at all time unless I am running someone down. I only use the afterburner to regain lost speed or climb. You want to keep the F-16 in its happy zone.
@Jalen King it's too many prop and early jet bad habits. They are going to cry harder when more FBW 'nerfs' come into the game in other aircraft. Too many people auto reflex flaps, afterburner, etc when they fly. Flap use in the F-16 is an instant lack of understanding of aircraft functionality. Too few people actually test the aircraft they get and think they can just jump into matches and know every performance envelope and think it will fly like their last plane.
is the best turn fighter out there, but at high speeds compress, you have to keep it at around 500-700k/h when u are turning or making a high yoyo, u are putting your afterburner off, that really affect the turn rate when you are pulling, because u are trying to turn at 450 k/h making it really sub optimal.
In real life the fly by wire system is used to prevent the plane from ripping the airframe so it’s realistic but limits the plane
irl the pilots had the ability slightly increase the maximum aoa limiter. War Thunder uses the lower limit currently.
Mfs be pulling 12gs… I don’t think the devs are going for realism
The problem is that G resistance for the pilot is unrealistic in War Thunder, before fly-by-wire the pilots limited themselves to not blackout and when fly-by-wire arrived became easier for the pilots to maneuver the plane and was a good thing, but since War Thunder is unrealistic fly-by-wire is a problem, so what Gaijin should do instead is make G resistance for the pilot more realistic, it would fix everything.
Top tier isn't ready for these aircraft so they had to slightly butcher them to make them not as game breaking as they are. Hopefully they'll buff them and make them more accurate to irl if there's less compression.
The fact that they're going so far as to slap G-limiters on all the top tier jets goes to show that Gaijin is willing to do literally anything to avoid decompressing BRs
Most people think that its the fly by wire that is responsible for it but its not. The flight model is bricked. To understand what i mean just do the following experiment: reach 700kph IAS on the deck and pull a sharp turn. See how fast it turns and then do the exact same turn at the same speed at higher altitudes. When you get to about 3km, you will start to notice that the turn lags and the higher you go the more it lags. By 'it lags' i mean the plane acts like you are tapping W without you tapping W, it turns a little, it stops, it turns a little more, it stops and so on. This is just one example of how the flight model is simply wrong
"Gaijin has limited this plane"
Oh thank God.
The F16 IRL does indeed have a G limiter. It is called the pilot and what ever he can handle is what the bird handles. Remember this is only a game don't none of you submit classified info to prove your point.
I LOVE this humor. earned a sub
Its not the realistic 9G limit of the F16 that's the problem but the unrealistic ability in every other plane to pull 13G without snapping.
This wouldn’t be a nerf if war thunder didn’t think pulling a constant 10+ gs without serious structural damage was “realistic”
The G limit is not the problem. It’s just showing that WT always had the issue of planes pulling unrealistic amounts of AOA for extended periods of time.
True but 1) it should be consistent across the board and 2) it makes missiles way less deadly allowing for more gunplay/dogfighting and less bland standoff/missile combat
The greatest part of it is when your plane still rips with new boosters despite the g limiter (at least on the mirage 2000)
I 100% agree yesterday it was a 1v1 and I had the MIG 23 Mld and the other guy had f16 , and we entered a dogfight, even in a two circle fight on the deck , I outrated him 😂. Imagine a plane outrating the f16 .
the f16 manages its best maneuverability around 350-430 ish knots (648 kmh - 796 kmh) any faster or slower and you're turning the plane into a flying brick. Dogfighting in the f16 is all about managing your speed to never go outside the speeds listed, but as long as you stay within those speeds then it will beat pretty much anything currently in the game, and most likely anything they add in the future, in a dogfight as long as you know what you're doing.
GD engineers: Let's make sure the plane doesn't overstress itself and turn the pilot to mush!
WT Player: cOMprEsSioN
I once pulled 17G's in a J-35 on min fuel bruh
Thhe G limiter is accurate but the problem is all other planes in the game are for some reason allowed to pull 15 G without completely disintegrating
I believe the G limiter is a real feature in the jets which include the f15 which could pull even less Gs with fuel and payload.
In terms of war thunder they should allow up probably just for balance purposes unless they plan on limiting Gs on a lot more aircraft
Limiting this plane my ass, they’re limiting the MiG-29, buff that shit
they should just remove the limit for both of them.. fucking nonsense they pulled off
It does limit both aircraft.F16 should have a soft aoa limiter, however in the case of the mig 29 it does have a hard limiter (like implemented in game) however i believe the limiter on mig 29 is too strong
the F16 has a pretty hard limiter too, it struggles to even hit 9gs most of the time and at certain speeds becomes a complete brick, at around 1100km/h the F16 pulls about 4 degrees of AOA compared to the MIG29s 7 degrees, at slower speeds the MIG29 and F16A actually pull about the same AOA which seems to max out at about 22-23 degrees, however the MIG29 starts pulling these AOAs at around 800km/h whereas the F16 will only do so at around 700km/h, so the MIG29 doesn't become a brick past 1000km/h and at certain speeds has no problem turning the same as the F16, so to say the MIG29 is limited but the F16 isn't is kind of a joke, both FMs seem completely broken. The F16 feels like an F104 at times, its weird.
Technically every plane in the game has FBW. Even in sim controls the game will not allow you to fully deflect the elevators on something like the F-14.
I've noticed the F16A can turn a lot harder than the ADF. Idk if it's my imagination or not but I have a lot more fun in that variant
the A weight quite some bit lighter than the ADF
@@areyou0k98 America had their own ADF aswell
If you want hampered get in the MiG-29
9:36 I think what happened there was you fired your aim-9L just as the SU-17 fired its missile, causing the 9L to track the missile (my own expecience with heat seekers is that they preferentially target missiles). When the enemy missile being tracked left the targeting radius of the 9L seeker head, it then re acquired the hottest thing in front of it, which by that point was the F-14 in fuller afterburner rear aspect.
*This is gonna be half rant, half constructive criticism*
No memes because I love this jet too much to have it be shat on ngl.
I simply can't understand why people blame Gaijin or the jet for realistic limitations in an unrealistic game and complain about it. People are fundamentally misunderstanding the F-16s manouverability and expecting it to work in a setting where it's not going to even IRL. IRL the jet only pulls 9-9.5Gs as a measure to not turn pilots into a fine mist at the bottom of the cockpit, because otherwise it absolutely would. Because of the G limit, the F-16 needs to be slower to get its excellent manouverability, which is much more often the case IRL.
One thing to understand is that for pulling the same G at a higher airspeed you will have a lower turning rate and a higher turning radius (both bad in their own aspects). Alternatively, to pull and maintain that G, you need airspeed and thrust (which the F-16 has plenty). ua-cam.com/video/pq2l6ZRoBaI/v-deo.html Watch this video on what's called an 'energy-manouverability' diagram and you'll understand why too high speed is bad for the F-16 with its G limit. This guy's channel in general is just top notch for BFM stuff for DCS World, and with the F-16 in WT it applies equally well.
Other jets constantly doing 12G manouvers at supersonic speeds is the thing to blame Gaijin for, as that would definitely not be happening IRL to the degrees it does in WT. The type of ACM that the F-16 was designed for and excells at IRL is not present in WT. Getting slow for a 1 circle fight or going for a 2 circle fight (which barely exist anyways when people just hold full elevator) means you get missiled quick. It dominates in WT if you can get in these kinds of fights, but you don't ever.
One thing Gaijin *can* probably be blamed for is the flaps not being handled automatically at lower speeds, but that would probably require an overhaul of that game mechanic and modelling the FLCS far beyond setting a 9G limit.
*To get to the gameplay*, the 1st game highlights pretty much perfectly the tendencies set out by the meta to be super quick all the time, combined with poor airspeed management outside of that. The shot on the stalling MiG-29 was taken at *.9 mach*, having extremely little regard for closure (a core aspect of BFM). This is well above the airspeed at which the F-16 turns best, and leaves you extremely little time to adjust to the bandit's manouvers (which the MiG did well, even slowing down to compound the closure issue). At even 200kph slower (aka not riding the afterburner) the jet would've whipped around much better. The airspeed was too high to turn G into rate and radius.
On the flipside of this: around 6:00 mins in you find yourself in a 2 circle fight (nose to tail). You didn't have enough airspeed (due to not having the afterburner engaged and not levelling off for half a second) to get any meaningful G and thus turn rate out of the jet and thus the faster MiG-29 with his afterburner engaged *and* using gravity better ends up on your tail quickly. When you do get speed and pull around you even remark that the turn you make is sharp, but you pull up into the vertical so you lose all your speed again and thus your rate goes down the shitter while the lower turn radius (which is good, but not in a 2 circle where you want turn rate) at slow speed meant you moved less from your original position: the MiG-29 gets his guns on. You were probably still going to get shot down there since the MiG-29 had a very good position to adjust to your plan, but had you made that turn horizontal you would've ended up with a higher turn rate throughout which would've made it considerably harder for the MiG-29 as he would've had to turn further against a faster target more nose-on.
Whether he knew it or not, this MiG-29 flew pretty good BFM, throwing constant curveballs when on the defensive and recognising the type of fight he was in. GF Fantomas!
11:40 in: This is much more like it! To have the turn rate needed to bring the nose around for a 9L shot on the 23ML you have to be slow. You correctly stayed out of afterburner to manage airspeed which resulted in a quick 180 turn and you managed to get the shot off quickly.
Around 12:40 you also do the correct thing. Stay below mach using the vertical to bring your airspeed down and set yourself behind the enemy. After that it does go down the shitter again though. High aspect shot + high airspeed (aka no turn rate) = not gonna be able to pull lead, no matter how much you want it. 2nd time around you do stay out of afterburner and get a crit. Solid work there but an F-16 going 90 degrees down still picks up too much speed, with airbrake that shot would've been much more comfortable but it wasn't bad. Further turns are also much better since you keep the speed low (maybe a touch too low, but in this case that's better than too fast). Had your teammates not been there that Mirage would still have stood very little chance.
As an experiment, try to fly the F-16 around its cornering speed (~.8 mach on the deck). You can instantly cut into that 9G turn and once you light the afterburner you turn circles around everybody. If you ever need speed just let go of the mouse and watch the speed to space shuttle mode and if you need the opposite you already know the F-16 can perform at slow speed.
tl;dr:
The entire crux of the F-16s performance in WT can be dumbed down to people being super heavy on the afterburner while being slower (.6-.8 mach) is where the F-16 gets its famous manouverability. It's 100% a skill issue derived from the meta being focussed around always being at your top speed, and not the speed at which your jet manouvers best. Be slower pls
Thank you sir for your details explanation.
I see way too much people complaining of the F16 lack of agility while taking full fuel and full afterburn all game.
So yeah people learn to get slower at the right times in the F16 and then it's a monster.
@@vedeved5246The problem is a slow jet is a dead jet at top tier. If you’re at the proper corner speed, you’re food for missiles
@@justsomemainer1384 that’s not an issue with the jet though, that’s an issue with gameplay and meta (if it is an issue). Tbf though the latest SAHR missiles aren’t often dodged anyways, so you might as well be a bit slower to try and notch them faster. Then again, you’d be discounting older SARH missiles and IR missiles, but countermeasures are still effective for those
@Spit_flyer, you are using the F16 wrong (this comes from 2.5kd). Personally,i believe you should climb to 6km and fly into enemy flight path, this enables you to neutralise any adversary by either killing then or forcing them to disengage.After neutralising high altitude targets you are in a position to dive down on the other planes, high altitude +long range ir missiles = very high pk
After which, depending on density of targets within environment you can employ boom and zoom and pick more planes or choose to dogfight adversaries.
When dogfighting ideally you should be at 550-500mph depending on your looping(vertical/diagonal/horizontal) in game the f16 is best suited for 1circling, you can turn fight any jet as long as you follow principles of manoeuvring
It’s supposed to be a monster in the two-circle and its optimum rate of turn is at 400-450mph
The F-16 is also an extremely capable rate fighter because of how much energy it can generate. I am not convinced it isn't better at dogfighting than everything else in the game currently.
@@jordanlee9001 yes but it bleeds like crazy once on optimum energy band, starting at a slightly higher energy state allows you to retain more energy later into the flight instead of losing all of it straight off of the merge
Its maybe just me bcs im not a top tier player for long but, high alt i cant get the radar to pick up on the enemy even after i set the range to 37km. So everytime i got locked very early by an F14 spamming missiles bcs well US vs US.
@@drae2173 I think it's cuz u looking to high, it only scans 10 degrees vertically without acm
him: 'firing a relatively simple salvo'
*dumps 200 rounds into the void*
dude you aren't aware of what you're doing wrong if you think the fight at 6:00 with the mig29 was some problem with the f16.
he doesnt even know how to properly fly the plane and still thought itd be a good idea to make a vid crying abt it
Playing the F-16 and F-16 ADF, I've found out that the guns does not aim at where the pointer is aimed. It's a little higher and a little to the left. Making the convergence at 600 and having vertical aim turned on helped a bit.
It's to be expected, it's not a straight nose gun. It's embedded in the left cheek
the reason why the f16 has a g limiter is probably because of the compression in br, as if it had no g limiter it would be the best plane in 11.0/11.3+br (more then it already is)
meanwhile: tornado not even able to pull enough gs to get a g warning
LOL poor tornado
The Mirage 2000 is supposed to be a fbw aircraft with a 9g limiter, but it doesn't have it. So it would be better for gajin to be consistent. Either all fbw planes haver thier g limiters or none don't.
6:00 the f16s best speed for rate fighting is 396 knots or 730 kph
Heres the thing tho. In real life the f16 has a G limiter of 9 G because if it were pull at max speed withought a G limiter it would most likely sustain damage to the airframe.
Speaking as someone who mostly plays american vehicles, in a game where vehicles already over-perform compared to how they did IRL, historic performance nerfs to SPECIFIC nations' vehicles is not right or fair. It wasn't fair when the Tiger II had the "bad steel" modifier to it's UFP and it isn't fair here. And no, I'm not whining that muh 'merican plane isn't taking as much of a fat shit on everything as it could be. Players SHOULD be alarmed when the devs just hand out random nerfs/buffs based on historical accuracy when there's a metric fuck-ton of historical in-accuracies in this game already.
On top of some the excellent comments here, it’s not so much that the F-16 is too limited, but that everything isn’t limited enough. MiG-23’s should not be pulling 14 G’s, more like 7.5-9.
Dude you don’t have to turn the burner off after takeoff, just use half burner saves fuel and goes fast
Honest opinion: instead of removing fly-by-wire from the f16, they should make all pilots in WT way more susceptible to G limits as they should be. It's not a problem of the plane.
I've been thinking about this for years. I'm glad it's implemented correctly. Of course the MiG-29 should be limited as well. It does have an override for the G-limiter and if it's used it should rip.
9:37 The F-14 is incredibly hot, generally speaking it's hotter without burner than most aircraft are with it. Before the series of R-24T nerfs you could practically lock them in BVR with it, and you can forget about firing an R-60M within 5km of a friendly tomcat or it will always find its way to them. The same goes for most IRs really
They say they added FBW to make it realistic, which is stupid considering the fact that in the Ariete you can pull 14G easily, which is something that would break a pilots spine in half in real life.
it feels weird to turn harder in the F104A than the average F16
Realistically, no pilot could handle more than 7gs for even minutes anyway…
F-16 is one of the most manouvreable planes of the 1980s/1990s. Also over-G is not a thing you normally use in real life and if you pull too hard, you might break the airplane (i.e. vings and control surfaces coming off, engines breaking loose, etc) at a minimum the ground crew will not be happy if you overstress your very expensive airplane. So to make the F-16 as good as it should be, it needs to be able to over-G or make it pull more Gs....this is just sad.
Mirage is not slow anymore. It’s faster on the deck than an f-16. Just recently updated.
I'm not totally sure about what I'm going to say, but I swear that the first day I took out the adf it wasn't limited like that, I think if I don't remember it was fantastic, they put that nerf in a few days later
Now look :D
The vulcan has absolutely been changed.. if you chase ai sometimes it will take up to 4 rounds to kill them, with players if you don't hit a wing or engine their flying away. I strive to be really good with my guns on aircraft and the vulcans used to be my favorite but now.. I'm not sure, while Russia aircraft can implode your plane with contact.
Best Radar in game + Best Radar Missile in game + Best IR missile in game
2 of these are not true
F-14 has a better radar, the R-27ER is better than the AIM-7F as it will reach targets faster, and the r-24t is the best IR missile in game
Kinda noticed the 20mm nerf myself too with the SPAA Vulcan, I often just don't do anything more than critical damage (which usually never results a fatal damage on the longrun: flaps, one wing damaged, fuselage damaged, etc.), I basically have to saw through the entire wing to take them down.
Its missing quite a bit as well, I dont believe it actually has the Enlarged HUD like it should and it if I remember correctly I believe the ADF was also the testbed airframe for HMD
Your aim in this video was absolutely stellar Spit and that intense dogfight you won against a Mig-29 with no issues? MMMM. Wow the F-16 ADF is so OP :D
With this plane you do want to have high awareness of your speed and keep it around 600-850km/h sweet spot when dogfighting and don't use flaps as the plane's automatic leading edge flaps will do a better job, putting the air break on a hotkey will be essential
yeah at high speeds it cant pull hard but get to around 300kts then you can out turn F-5’s, MiG-21’s MiG-29’s etc
You can still out turn Mig29s because your pilot doesnt pass out when youre turning at 600kmh
F16 best turn rate speed is about 650 to 750 km/h
Looking at the footage, your turning performance drops significantly when using flaps. Let the automatic leading edge flaps do their job
Ah, the War Thunder Cycle.
>Russian soft sim game adds western design
>Western design seal clubs eastern bloc garbage
>The western design is nerfed
you need to use that airbrake bud! wep + airbrake when dogfighting turns you into a machine, the sweet spot is 600-700kmh, perfect plane for sitting inside peoples turning circles, even the flaps help
Wasn’t the g-limiter just for peace time? In the hornet the g-limiter can be disabled
2 things gaijin didn't make the ADF model a rate fighter. The standard A model is the best of the 2 for dogfighting. Also dont use your flaps! The FCS limits your aoa down to 10°aoa cause you're telling it you're landing or taking off and it tries to avoid tailstrikes. They messed up the rate fight capabilities. If you want success in dogfighting with this plane, fly specifically the A model (block 10) and/or use it as a AOA fighter (unless its a mirage ur Fighting) hope this helps, and hope gaijin fixes it
The G-Limit is great, change my mind. High AOAs and G-numbers cause you to bleed speed and lose energy so much faster. With the G-Limit you maybe cant reverse that great but in a sustained dogfight, you're going to out rate anyone.
It does not suffer more than other planes do or have been in game regarding the flight model and balancing. The F-16 pulls more than 9G if flown properly you can also use the energy retention to your advantage in many situations. It is all about managing your speed. Against the MiG-29 at around 06:18 you are to slow and when you manage to pull sharp as you say you are just entering the range of speed that the F-16 wants to be kept in.
It's funny
how massively different The F16 is in sim turns like it should u can pull 12G's over Mach only issue is your pilot goes to sleep
It's perfectly accurate, IRL the F-16 is a rate monster that kinda flounders in the 1 circle, the g-limiter is implemented exactly as it would work.
@@dingle2844 irl the f-14 can pull up to 11g's before the wings come off, but permanent damage will most likely be sustained
@@oceanforth21 No it doesn't, I don't know who told you that
make sure you take "armored targets" for the 20mm, this will give you more kills and less crits
Just taking a break from top tier air atm, just kind of tired of my pulse doppler locking chaff, and notching not working correctly. Also the spotting system is atrocious, nothing like seeing a jet appear out of thin air 3km away, and the spotting system being so bad, the jet was completely invisible the whole time.
Gaijin always have been super picky with the historical elements that "nerf" some aircraft. The rudder of the Scimitar and the never exceed speed limit of the Javelin come to mind. However, some people here are pretending the F-16 is absolute trash for this and that definetly isn't the case. An F-16/F-14 combo has a 90% chance to win any match, with the Mig-29 being a close third for the best plane this patch. And I don't even want to imagine how strong the F-16 will be if the FBW limiter is removed and AIM-7M is fixed... 12.0 BR is badly needed atm
I got the F-16 yesterday at I must say it flies like a brick, it feels like flying an f-4j
This is where WT's terrible flight models really cause problems. As far as I can tell the F-16 is performing as it should, just everything else is unhampered by the laws of physics. MiG-21s, for example, are nowhere near as manoeuvrable in the real world, as they are limited by wings and engines stalling at high AOA, something not modelled in WT. The Viggen is the worst offender of all, which over performs to such an extent it has no resemblance to the real world aircraft. If WT was actually the "Most Realistic" simulation of these aircraft like those gronks market it as, issues like this would never exist
The Viggen is actually fairly accurate relative to what I’ve flown in DCS. And I really don’t think the F-16 “nerf” is a big deal, it still easily beats any other jet in the game.
@@collander7766 Considering that up until recently the Viggen was capable of Mach 2.2 so easily in DCS I don't think it's an accurate representation. Keep in mind how much it compressor stalls in DCS as well and how that would affect its performance in WT if that were modelled
@@henryoshea4951 DCS’ AJS-37 has been limited to about Mach 1.7-1.8 at altitude for years.
And the only Viggens that really suffered from compressor stalls were the attacker ones (AJ) as they wouldn’t need to dogfight anyway. Fighter versions (JA) had an extra compressor stage added to burn fuel and pull air in better at low speeds and high AOA.
@@collander7766 Fair point on the compressor, but this doesnt apply to the AJ model we have in WT. The update for the Viggen's FM in DCS only came in November or December from what I remember. Before I was easily able to surpass Mach 2 above 30,000ft
engines stalling would make alot of planes unflyable there is no need for it be in war thunder
a G limiter is made to help the pilot not black out yes 8g or 9g is good in a dog fight it helps you in game making the g limit 8 or 9 means you will keep you energy
They’ve said on the latest shooting range episode at least for the mig 29 they have limited the planes capabilities for balancing reasons till they add stuff in the future im sure the same can be said for the f16
They limited it by taking away one of it's strongest missiles seen in the dev server, that's it