I think the other reason they cut the scene is because the dialogue so heavily predicts a LOT of what later gets revealed about the Riddler: that this is a personal vendetta dating back to childhood, that he's a fan of Batman (not a hater), and even that there's a ton of overlap between the Riddler and Batman's mindsets. By including this scene in the actual movie, all of those plot points would feel less impactful, making the final act much weaker as a result.
@@firstlast9846 It does technically count as foreshadowing, but it kind of gets heavy handed especially towards the end of the scene when Joker goes into how Batman and Riddler are morally aligned and Batman subconsciously justifying and understanding how he thinks
When the scene shifts from what Batman suspects what Riddler actually knows and wants, I think it's less impactful if we go in even considering he's a Bat fan and a streamer. "We almost got him" worked because I think suspect it was going to be a thing.
Loved the fact that Joker stole the paperclip off the folder without drawing attention to it. That would have made for an amazing “oh shit,” moment when you see him slip off his cuffs in his cell (and most likely brutalize a guard and take his uniform in the process).
@@crowcortez That’s the real reason why he was taunting Batman: not just to get under his skin but to distract from the swipe. He didn’t even bother looking at the folder when he grabbed it since he was in a hurry to get out of the room. It’s so cool seeing a version of the Batman that’s genuinely unnerved by being around Joker, instead of just acting stoic all the time. You can see it actually having an effect on him. Inversely, I like that Joker is one of the only characters who isn’t creeped out by Batman. Just shows how demented his perception is.
In my head the paper clip was the first thing I noticed when Batman handed joker the file. I feel like there’s realistically no way Arkham would’ve allowed a pointy metal thing inside someone’s cell… but it’s such a small detail I suppose I can suspend my disbelief lol
@@jontsubota6235 Something tells me B-Man gets preferential treatment. Having a friend on the force has got to come with some benefits, including not getting patted down (the guy is a walking armory anyway). I like that this is another example of how green he really still is. He’s so overly cocky that he thought Joker wouldn’t be able to get anything past him.
Just the way Barry Keoghan delivers the line, "Have you read this file" stays with me the whole time I'm watching the scene. I don't understand why yet, but every time I see the scene and get to that part I rewind it over and over again.
For me it's the part when he says "awee are you afraid he make u look soft?" and he cracks himself laughing. He is so natural in his delivery. I can't wait to see more of his joker on the big screen
This scene is absolutely epic but I’m extremely grateful it was cut from the film. The reveal that the riddler thought he was working with Batman the whole time was such a surprising subversion and completely blind sided me. I think this scene may have hinted too strongly at that and it may have lost some of the impact on a first viewing. Either way, I am very excited for more joker and Batman.
I agree and also believe that because the Joker was this creepy and impactful in just five minutes, he might've taken the shine away from the Riddler as well.
yeah, this was probably why the scene was removed. And even though some amazing moments and shots, they couldn't just pick and choose from this scene to add in the movie without it looking scuffed so they had to kill their darlings and cut it out completely instead.
@@ProtagonisTeneT I could see them incorporating the villains more organically into the framework of Gotham in the following films. Joker, Riddler, Penguin etc showing up in each one under different contexts. This films main villain definitely felt as if it was Gotham itself and it’d be cool to see them keep that theme running through a trilogy.
This reminds me a lot of the sequence in The Long Halloween where Batman profiled the Holiday Killer with Calendar Man in addition to the obvious Silence of the Lambs parallels. I loved it.
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 Red Dragon was written in 1981 and first adapted by Michael Mann as 'Manhunter' in 1986, which depicts Will Graham going to Hannibal Lecter to assist in the capture of Francis Dollarhyde, in the exact same manner as Batman does with Joker and Riddler.
Long Halloween had too many homages in it, or imo thefts. First it was The Godfather and then it was Silence of the Lambs. Loeb has a habit of doing this. In the age of Apocalypse comic, i think it was the one about Cable, theres a line stolen Terminator. In another X-men comic he steals a scene from Manhunter. Loeb's tropes are so annoying to me. BUT i will say that I enjoyed the long Halloween animated adaption.
“He may be a fan, or he may have a grudge against you” Love that both of those are right, Riddler’s a fan of Batman, but has a grudge against Bruce Wayne
The screentests for the film had one with both of the Joker scenes on and another without the scenes and they ultimately decided for the version where they kept the second scene and removed this one which I think is the right call. This scene happens early on in the film after the second victim and not only does he pretty much predict the whole thing and actually succeed in profiling Riddler but it also takes away from the second scene later on where he would have been revealed. It also kind of diminishes the shock Batman feels (and what we, the audience, would feel) when he realizes Riddler's motivations since the Joker pretty much already told him. This was a fantastic scene but removing it was the right call and I'm kind of hoping it's not canon. The film didn't need it and nothing in the final cut felt like a piece was missing anyway.
@@CabezasDePescado I dunno, I can't really relate to that criticism for 2 reasons. First, scenes that stand out feeling like reshoots to me are usually those that are visually inconsistent with the movie but that was still completely in line to me. Second, I kinda went into the film already knowing about the scenes and the test screenings so it didn't really feel off to me since I was expecting it. I think placement-wise, we're just used to seeing these things in mid/post-credits.
I suppose adding it like they have is the perfect place to have it. Beautiful done as we get the impact of him in the film while also getting to see this brilliant scene as it was intended without ruining the impact of catching the Riddler.
This scene reminds me why I love the Joker. Just like Batman, there are so many ways you can take the character and it will still be true to the character. He can be a mobster, a deadly prankster, or the psychopath (or all three!). He's just so versatile and fascinating! I can't wait to see more!
I loved the scene where he said to batman ‘’aaw, you afraid he makes you look soft?’’ The way he delivered that line and laughed after actually made me laugh aswell lol. Really like his take ok the Joker, you can tell he has more of a heath take of the character aswell.
“It’s not about some version where he falls into a vat of chemicals and his face is distorted, or what [Christopher] Nolan did, where there’s some mystery to how he got these scars carved into his face,” he says. “What if this guy from birth had this disease and he was cursed? He had this smile that people stared at that was grotesque and terrifying. Even as a child, people looked at him with horror, and his response was to say, ‘Okay, so a joke was played on me,’ and this was his nihilistic take on the world.” - Matt Reeves
You can see the mental damage the tormenting has delivered. He's pulled out his hair, he's got scars all over, his mouth is all scabbed, and he's kind of a wreck. My theory is that most of it is self-harm because he handled the constant taunting and hate in an unhealthy way. I am excited to see if he talks about it.
Dang, it didn’t even take a second for me to wait until clicking here. But yes, Barry is chilling. Imagine seeing this Joker in real life…scarier than Heath to be honest. Better? Not sure. But this is a FREAKY Joker, and I’m loving Matt Reeves’ vision. The man understands BATMAN.
I wasn't 100 percent on this Joker even though I love Barry and I know he's a fantastic actor. When I saw this though, I was sold. My only criticism is it's a little hard to understand what he's saying at times.
@@groverkiinmuppetborn714 Agreed, very much so. At first, with the cameo, I wasn’t sold as the portrayal being “good”. Felt cheap. But this scene…holy crap. And I barely know anything of Barry as an actor. Especially with the proper script and characterization, Barry could be the scariest Joker ever put to film, or in film media as a whole.
@@BloodyFlowerFilms I appreciate the enthusiasm! At one point I believed so too. However, Ledger’s variant wasn’t definitively…Joker, for me, you know what I mean? He didn’t embody the Clown Prince of Crime, the Jester of Genocide. Crime, genocide, psychological manipulation, all present, but the “Clown” and “Jester” aspect was lost for me. He was perfect for his version, for the vision Nolan had. But is he the end all best? Not for me, no. Is anybody going to be? Never, because art is that subjective.
@@BloodyFlowerFilms I’ll Back you up on this. I think Ledger performance is Iconic and that’s why so many Jokers after him crib off of it (even here with Barry). To me there will be no definitive Joker because Joker as a character is a multiple choice of a character. There is no one solid answer to what he is!
It was a good scene and I loved the way this Joker looks. He looks like fell into a vat of chemicals, and Barry's interpretation of the character was fantastic. My take on it is that Joker has been in Arkham for a year at this point. The fact that Batman goes to him for some insight, shows that Batman considers this Joker to have above average intelligence. It was great.
@The Wraith if you cant tell them apart youre blind and deaf. They are all clearly separated , and its not rocket science. Prob should take a break big guy. Youre too jaded.
This scene was so good bc it characterized batman rlly well thru his relationship w joker. It’s almost like a toxic relationship, where batman clearly has this connection to the joker, and there’s a mutual respect that isn’t there w other villains in the movie, but he knows it’s wrong.
I really like this sense of the joker, dude playing him did a really good job. I just hope that they build up to the joker and don’t just make him the villain of the sequel. It would be cool if Batman comes to joker more and more which is what allows him to escape and sets up the final movie
Matt Reeves said they have no plans to use the Joker in any of the sequels. Matt Reeves has a hard on for Mr. Freeze and said he wants to try and have him in a sequel.
Yeah, I hope they just sprinkle in the Joker in each movie. It seems like Barry will be a scene stealer and we’ve had 3 Jokers in 6 years now. Bring Red Hood or other villains out to play.
A few reasons I feel the cut was probably necessary. First off, the pacing. I don't know whether this scene would really fit in anywhere. Secondly, diminishing Bruce somewhat (he makes a few mistakes, but him missing Joker's mental tricks would be too many in the same film). Lastly, spelling out everything might diminish the impact later on. It's still a cool scene though, and I'm glad they are making it available to fans. Granted, the hamfisted reveal later wasn't ideal, but these are small gripes for an otherwise amazing film.
I think it is because "the Joker" sounds like a teenager with asthma,...this movie is so horribly miscast that it hurts. I'm not a fan of BvS, but how the fck can you go from Cristian Bale and Ben Affleck to this sparkling turd?
That scene was awesome, I love the way the joker came off like he could snap on a dime. There was this feeling of a mutual respect between the two, and the dialogue between them screamed, one bad day is the difference between the Batman and the Joker. Love it.
I think the reason they didn’t include it is that you can’t tease Joker earlier in the movie and not expect him to come in a big way later on in the movie! We would all just be waiting for the joker to show up again in the finale. It would undermine the riddler in the movie quite a bit
I believe matt reeves addressed it in and interview. He described this scene and said they removed it because they felt it took the focus of the film and felt out of place (or something along those lines). I think the scene on its own is great I love it and it feels like it adds more context to the other scene with him in. However I need to see where the scene was placed if it was left in the film. Like I trust Reeves when he says it felt out of place like it could have felt different being in the actaul film in terms of continuity
I just don’t see Joker Being the villain of the Sequel. But this Makes Joker his Character in this new franchise . But we have to wait and see when he’s ready to step in into this upcoming franchise.
They could do Calander Man in the sequel, and Joker helps him solve the case along with Gordon. At the end of the film, Joker breaks everyone out of Arkham to set up for the 3rd film. Just so much they could do with this.
Loved the scene! I think part of the reason it was deleted is it would have taken the audiences focus away from riddler knowing there’s another big bad villain around the corner waiting to be unleashed. It also reveals a lot of thr theme of the movie. It’s giving away too much about the riddler and how Batman feels. Still love that we got see that interaction
I think the scene was likely cut out so that the focus could stay on The Riddler and the rest of the story. I think if this scene was in the middle of the movie, it would have been too distracting and audiences would have been thinking "OMG they're doing The Joker again" rather than focusing on the story this film was telling. I liked the scene, but think it was wise to leave it out.
I didn’t really like that we were getting yet ANOTHER cinematic Joker, as Batman has a whole slew of villains the movies could use, but this deleted scene made me change my mind a bit. This Joker has potential.
The best line is when joker says “I know who he is” but he meant it in a more spiritual sense of “I understand this person”. But Batman takes it literally and asks “who is he?” Great dialogue juxtaposition of how each character expresses themselves Edit: corrected the quote
Batman should’ve known better since why else would he seek help from an unhinged psycopath if not for finding commonalities between these folks. I think he was aware of that but he was so in a rush to dig up the truth that he missed what’s so obvious right in front of his face
It's a cool scene to watch now and wouldn't mind it included back in the movie for an extended cut, but I just finished watching it a few minutes ago and I feel it was a good call to cut the scene for two reasons. First, it's unnerving as hell and having the joker appear as a Hannibal Lector type villain in the first film of the series would immediately steal all the attention away from The Riddler, who should remain the focus as the films main threat. The Joker is too popular that no matter what he inevitably going to be the thing people will focus on. The second reason I think it was a good reason to cut it is he's giving away The Riddler's motives and immediately ends the mystery of the movie. It's not even vague hints that become clear on a rewatch, he's saying exactly what The Riddler's motives are. So watching this clip after seeing the film is amazing but good call to remove it.
Fully agree. My thoughts exactly. In a vacuum it's an excellent scene but had it been in the movie it would have have diminished the effect of the ending and also steered attention away from the Riddler which wouldn't have been good. Despite what Jeremy and some others have said, I actually like the small cameo the Joker has in the actual movie. It hints at a larger world without taking the attention away from the main plot. Could this longer scene have been a post credit scene? Like as a flashback? Possibly.
I also think that this scene definitely would've made that I Am Vengeance line at the end of the movie more hard hitting. We get to see Batman's closest nemesis point out how he's no different than most of the people he beats, and the idea that the Batman feels guilty because he's responsible for burning the joker, that's freaking dope. His greatest villain being a constant reminder of the day he went too far.
I feel the same way and not only that but in this deleted scene it at least gets the introduction to Joker "out of the way" so to speak. And it does it well. We need an intro to Joker and we do need him as a side character this time and I thought this worked but oh well
This really adds a lot to world, I love the fact that they’ve already had they’re first encounter prior to these events. I think it’s about time we see how the interact in the prime of their careers. While I’m glad they released this scene I’m also glad they took it out because it would’ve taken away from the prime conflict of the movie and everybody’s attention would’ve gone to this one scene it would’ve ruined the rest of the movie. I can’t wait to see them deliver on more interactions later but I also don’t want him to be the next main villain, Joker shouldn’t always be the main antagonist, sometimes he works just fine as just another foil
I agree that we need more interactions between Batman and the Joker like this scene, but I also want to see the Joker be the final main antagonist for Batman in the future. There are plenty of great Joker stories from DC that need to be told in live-action. Imagine Barry Keoghan’s Joker killing Robin in the third or final film!? That would be the most intense scene in any Batman movie!
*I'm tired of seeing the Joker all the time. Ledger in 2008, Leto in 2016, Phoenix in 2019, Cameron Monaghan in Gotham and now this guy? It's like DC and Warner Bros. forgot Batman has a rogues gallery of other villains they can use.*
Something Beyond the Trailer mentioned that I really agree with on why it was cut. It reveals the Riddler’s actual feelings and motives. At this point in the movie, most of us think that Riddler is antagonizing Batman. But Riddler thinks they are working together. This scene would spoil that a little. But you might be able to cut around that dialogue and keep this scene.
I actually quite like the idea of using Joker as a sort of Hannibal Lecter figure in this new Batman story. It would mean we would still get Joker, but in a different sort of way and not as much. We've gotten so much Joker over the years that another one fighting Batman face-to-face would be white noise, but having him in this position could sort of give new life to the character.
Here’s my take: They should have left the scene in. Where the scene would’ve fallen chronologically in the movie’s timeline would’ve setup the eventual revelation Bruce had that he should abandon the vengeance motif for why Batman exists and change fully to being a symbol of hope. As the movie laid out Bruce’s character arc, he kept making these mistakes, which was phenomenal, but at the end, when he stops Seline from killing her pops, it was like he suddenly made the realization of his own corruption of the populace without any foundation of why he started feeling this way. And I can’t shake the feeling of it coming across that he changed “for love.” This scene plants the seed early on that Bruce, at this point in the movie, isn’t as fully committed to vengeance as he was at first. Joker taunting him by pointing out that Bruce does feel like some of the corrupt people deserved their fate begins Bruce thinking that maybe he’s going about this the wrong way. It sets the stage for him preventing Seline from going down the same path of her father, and it further drives home the “hope” ideology when he demasks the Riddler clone at the end and hears his moniker to his own horror. I think this scene would’ve more fully fleshed out Bruce’s character arc, and definitely would’ve added to the story. Plus, it’s the fucking Joker.
Just watched the deleted scene and then now watched this video (your video Jeremy) and I loved the deleted scene (glad it wasn’t in the movie honestly but glad it exists) and it felt like it would have fit perfectly in the movie. Which makes me kinda wish it was in the movie because of how awesome it would have been as part of Batman’s lore in this franchise
*If Joker is already in prison* and him and Batman don’t properly know each other.. then I’d say they’re building up the “Serious House” storyline.. where Joker lets the Arkham staff leave during a riot and traps Batman in Arkham with his entire rogues gallery.. an isolated Batman movie like the Raid would be “Movie of The Year”
Probably two reasons for this scene getting pulled. 1. Batman clearly doesn't know the answers and needs Joker to explain it all to him. This takes away from him feeling like 'world's greatest detective' angle they were focusing on so much in the movie. 2. Joker explains all the twists about Riddler's identity and motives. This takes away from the later reveals about Riddler. Would have been poor execution to just have another character explain this all to Batman. You don't want to downplay both the skills of your protagonist and the reveals of your antagonist. Would have been like Killer Croc just explaining the Joker's backstory, wouldn't be satisfactory to find out about it that way.
Well for 1 there is an exactly same scene in the comics where this movie was loosely based on but it was with calendar man instead of The Joker. Doesnt take anything away from him he is trying to get in the mind of a serial killer by talking to one and again this is his second year he still has a lot to figure out. Looks like joker and riddler has been the only big thing that he has faced against in his two years besides beating the sht out of regular thugs.
In terms of where the scene could fit into the runtime, I would cut to it after Bruce is in the hospital right after Alfred gets injured from the Riddler's bomb. Because now that he and his home have been targeted, the conflict has become more urgent and personal, and he instantly becomes desperate enough to go to his worst enemy for help.
I think they didn’t want to overwhelm the audience and themselves , bringing in a new joker after so many , is always tough . considering the Jared Leto flop , I really think this scene was meant to be released later on to allow people the time they need to adjust to the new cinematic approach and to capture their reactions, after they have been teased in the movie. Smart approach. Because if they had included it and people didn’t like the scene the whole focus of the audience will shift towards the joker because he will steal the movie if we like him and it will ruin the movie if we don’t.
The scene was cut because Joker pretty much spoils what happens in the movie and the whole plot Riddler was pulling. It would feel cheap to have Batman get this info and not use it to get Riddler and then in the end you go "Oh yeah, Joker was right".
Completely agree with potential reasons why and I think #2 design might be it. We've never seen a Joker like this, brutally, horrifyingly scarred all over. I loved it but I feel like this was going to be a divisive decision down to the wire. Remember the heaps of bad press and reactions on social media Leto's Joker got when his design was released. This is a lot more visceral, that last shot with the mouth (genius btw) might have represented to big of a creative risk.
Although that scene admittedly sent a chills on my back and I think it was great as a stand alone scene, I think it was a good decision from Reeves to cut it from the movie. The only reason for that being is that since it would probably be early on in the movie, (when Batman still tries to connects all the pieces as to why the Riddler did what he did) it would have undermined the self-revelation that Batman reaches at the end of the movie that perhaps being “Vengeance” isn’t too far from being a villain and what people need for Gotham to stop being at a never ending cycle of violence is Hope. So, if that Joker scene was included, Batman would have had already a hint from his discussion with the Joker that perhaps his motives are not too different from the Riddler. This would have definitely underpowered the dynamic of the movie’s conclusion in my opinion…
I love the dynamic here. They both hold hatred for each other but are also each fascinated by the other. I genuinely think it would be in character for joker to continue to agree to these meetings solely to get a closer look into Bruce’s personality
Seems like Gotham's Jerome/Jeremiah but with more of a Ledger impression again, but I'm sold on him now. Way better scene than the Riddler scene at the end, which feels like a reshoot. But glad this was cut, as it takes away from the "interrogation" scene. Can't wait for more now!
If they put this joker scene in the movie, it would have ruined the threat and impact of the riddler knowing that there’s a bigger scarier villian right around the corner
Again, I’m reminded of the TellTale Batman games. And how, in “The Enemy Within” I did everything I could to keep Joker from killing people…to keep him my (Batman’s) friend. And, at the end of the game, I was rewarded with a cutscene that gave me goosebumps and brought a tear to my eye. Cuz, I’m a sap!!
In terms of where the scene could fit, a lot of people say it couldn't work because Joker guesses Riddler's backstory almost perfectly, and I definitely see that perspective. However given it hints at Bruce's brutal vengeance complex and his villains being "inspired" by him which is addressed in the finale, I think this scene might be able to work much earlier on in the movie. It'd predict Riddler's backstory yes but so much happens before the third act that I think it wouldn't deflate Riddler's origin reveal, most would forget what Joker even said, and it'd also enhance Bruce's realization that he can't be the brutal vigilante anymore and needs to inspire the citizens of Gotham rather than the criminals.
There'll be an extended cut of this movie with this scene. I think they wanted to see our reaction first and probably thought the scene was a bit much after they did it
this Joker scene is so much better than the tacked on one at the end. However, this scene reveals too much thats meant to slowly burn and is a little too on the nose with Joker pointing out the similarities between batman and riddler
I really am meh on this incarnation of the Joker, and almost feel a little Joker'd out. Almost time to let him go for a minute and bring other villains to the forefront. I really want to see Clayface in live action
This scene is essentially the same scene as Batman talking to Riddler in Arkham Asylum. The Riddlers motivations are revealed and he gets under Batman’s skin. It wouldn’t make sense to have both.
So glad they cut this because this was good, really really good. Depending on the writing, a full joker and Batman movie with those two would be incredible. Make it more a year one and prequel. If this was in the movie, first run in the theaters, it would take away from the Riddler, and Paul Dano was amazing in the role. I like this Detective Batman feel. Much better than the Swiss Army knife gadget superhero version many have come to expect with the JLA.
the best batman villains are the ones that reflect an aspect of batman's character but in a darker way. Like how batman is all about vengeance in the movie and he does that by fighting crime, and the Riddler does it by murdering people.
The way I saw the last scene, which made me appreciate it more, was showing the audience how damaged people become being in Gotham City. It really drove home the point that nobody gets out of Gotham in one piece...
The self-awareness of the “yeah this dates over” line is why I follow you. Sure The Joker is a great character, but should never be idolized or hero-worshipped. (I will say a Joker tattoo isn’t an instant red flag but it certainly brings up a yellow)
@@LahyriAurbach sure but that's specific to your area. My initial statement still stands that it isn't INHERENTLY a red, but most certainly a yellow card. But damn I didn't know this. Makes sense but that def is a red flag in Brazil then! lol
The scene is good but I think having the Joker almost solve a big part of the mystery for Batman would take away from the film overall. But a directors cut of this would be amazing.
I think they cut this scene because it lessens the interrogation scene with Riddler later on in the movie. It makes that scene feel a little “been there, done that” as well as it alludes to the fact that Riddler is a big fan of Batman and views him as an ally, spoiling the surprise for later. So I think they viewed this as perhaps a great scene on its own, that may lessen the rest of the movie around it.
Batman feels like he had something to do with joker's face situation. But with such long movie yeah I'm glad they cut it but then release it later for some extra context.
My personal opinion: I already love this Joker but I think they should wait a little longer. We already had Ledger and Joaquin, and I think is about time they explore Batman's other villains. Still, amazing actor and I really wanna see more of him maybe in a third movie
Remarkable! Just when I thought we were becoming over-saturated with the Joker, this falls in our laps. Now, I want a whole The Batman sequel dedicated to this rendition of the Clown Prince of Crime. He may be the creepiest version yet.
I love the look, it's great take on the character. My only gripe is that, IMO, the Joker isn't the right villain for this kind of scene/interaction. The 'asking the villain for help' trope in this universe would be more suited to the Riddler or Hugo Strange. That aside, very much looking forward to seeing Barry Keoghan strut his stuff.
The look is good, the concept of "asking the villain for help" is not that bad (I agree that cliche suits better with the more methodical villains like you mentioned)... but man, the actor sounded completely off imo, zero tension, no threatening at all, no "crazy" overtones... nothing, the actor doesn't have a presence. And that is a huge flaw because the Joker is supposed to be a very impactful character, but what we have here is just the curiosity about his deformed looks, but the acting itself, the line delivery, the laugh... none of these things felt right imo
This scene is absolutely magnificent and while it is only 5 minutes, it adds a little bit more to Batman’s/Bruce’s character development, it absolutely should have been left in.
There are two specific reasons why the deleted Joker scene could not have made the final cut. The first is that this version of Batman was intended to be more closer to the World's Greatest Detective than any previous portrayal and in this scene he is effectively given the answers to the Riddler's identity rather than working it out for himself. The second is the inclusion of this scene would have also stolen the limelight from Paul Dano's Riddler. I do agree that the scene that was in the movie where the Joker "befriends" the Riddler in Arkham State Prison looked like it was tacked on to foreshadow the direction of the next film. That scene plus the deleted one have led to a lot of criticism from people about them "playing it safe" by revealing the Joker and/or not giving other villains in the Batman Universe a chance. The thing is that the Joker is Batman's archenemy and you can't have multiple movies in a particular universe without his presence. Barry Keoghan's take on the character in just this one deleted scene was fantastic. His portrayal seems to be equally psychotic and intelligent instantly making his Joker a fascinating character. There is enough there in just that one scene to show the fans that they can offer a different take on a character that has appeared four times in feature films since 1989 with four completely different interpretations of him.
@@swaroop7021 technically every joker to come after Heath will be that because of what he did for the character. If you can’t get past that then I doubt you will be able to enjoy any iteration of the joker moving forward.
@@thefinderskeep1680 This doesn't make any sense. Leto and Joaquin were nothing like Heath, and there's hundreds of interpretations of the Joker to draw on. We don't need a bargain bin Heath, he already gave his great performance.
I think it was removed because it was a little on the nose, joker just straight up tells Batman exactly what’s happening, but now that we’ve seen it an extended version including this would be cool
I also thought the scene with the joker at the end of the movie was extremely week. And I like that they cut that scene as well. It would’ve taken everything away from the riddler. Plus when show him so soon. What made Chris Nolan’s set up for joker so good was that we didn’t see him in the first one, we just get a mention that there’s a new guy leaving calling cards at his crimes, then we see the jokers card. Imagine if we saw Heath ledgers joker in a security camera at the end of Batman begins. It would’ve taken away from his character immensely.
100% agree.. but then again.. I wasn’t too crazy about The Batman anyways.. but seeing the Joker at the end of the film just made me go MEH. Wish we didn’t see him at all until the sequel.. the element of surprise is kind of gone.
@@zacgale4231 I actually think it’s easily the second best Batman movie after the dark knight. I loved the noir style of everything but then again I’m a sucker for anything noir
I'd like to see a sequel with Scarecrow (personally, I'd cast Greg Bryk), and maybe a grounded Poison Ivy that doesn't have powers but is just a seductive ecoterrorist, then a Joker finale to tie everything together.
Yea but where there is Batman, there has to be Joker somewhere down the line. Just hope Matt reeves can get the chance to do more films than a trilogy, then they could introduce anyone like Clock King, Scarecrow, Killer Croc ( unless he is trying to stay realistic, Hopefully not), Firefly, Ivy, Clayface, Zassz( I know im spelling it wrong), Two face , and etc. Mr. Freeze might be the next one for all we know, and we might even see multiple villains in that one.
Ive been a massive fan of The Batman since release but for some reason never got around to seeing this deleted clip. I love this interaction, adds another layer to Batman and I like the Crazy intellectual vibe this Joker has. Shouldve been in the Movie.
I'm intrigued but also see why they cut this scene. A lot of the info given to us in the scene by the Joker was given to us better in other scenes in the movie imo. It felt more natural than Joker just telling Batman all this.
it felt kinda meh for me, it felt like gotham the series joker, kinda meh, in the first minute it felt like a dude imitating ledgers joker than it went to jerome(gotham's) joker, the joker creates hype automatic but Its just feels okay for me. could go either way
I wish they didn't have joker in the movie at all. This is a young batman, joker usually shows up later. There are plenty of villains they could have thrown in. I think Barry Keoghan is a great choice tho.
I think the main reason it was cut was it took the focus out of the movie. If you have a major villain like joker just cameo in half way and not show up again it’ll just feel weird. But I can’t wait to see more!
Love your thoughts Jeremy, also since you talked about wanting/hoping the scene is on the blu ray, does this mean your rating went up from 'no alcohol required' to 'buy on blu ray' ? :D Keep up the excellent work, following you for more than a decade now, starting with the Avatar review :)
I'm honestly glad it was cut. Like he said the riddler feels like the first big threat he's faced but then to not only say that batman's already fought the joker but to also relegate him to a 5 minute scene just doesn't feel right to me. I'm really hoping that idea stays scrapped and the final scene of the movie is him before he really becomes the joker.
Now that I think of it, I also have a problem with the idea that there's some history (backstory) in the universe of that film that we never got to see. Maybe I'm just a bit traditional about it but I do like the idea that within the 2 years of being Batman, The Riddler would be the biggest threat yet. We just assumed that everyone he fought before the events of the movie were goons and small time criminals who were working for the mob...well, the movie did kind of implied that. Also, it feels like this scene would've made Bats a little bit more dependent on the Joker's thoughts in figuring things out. He shouldn't, he's supposed to be smart. On top of that, we are treated with a chemistry that we're not really established with. The only reason why it works for us is because we know the history (comic) between these 2 characters. So yeah, despite the scene being good, I'm glad they cut it and as for the little cameo in the final cut, that deserved to be cut also. We never really needed a Joker tease for this one. Felt like they were retreading the tease in Batman Begins.
While it is a good scene, it kind of ruins Batman’s later development and realisation as the Joker has to tell him rather than Batman figuring it out himself. It was a good move that it was cut.
It's pronounced KYO-han. With little emphasis on the han, and all ran together quickly without a gap between the syllables. So he was actually pretty far off, but I'll give him credit for trying.
I think the other reason they cut the scene is because the dialogue so heavily predicts a LOT of what later gets revealed about the Riddler: that this is a personal vendetta dating back to childhood, that he's a fan of Batman (not a hater), and even that there's a ton of overlap between the Riddler and Batman's mindsets. By including this scene in the actual movie, all of those plot points would feel less impactful, making the final act much weaker as a result.
I’d say more foreshadow than “predicts” I don’t think it ruins anything - but the scene as a while still wouldn’t work with the movie.
it wouldve been a good reveal if they kept it cause whn movie ends joker reveal so
@@firstlast9846 It does technically count as foreshadowing, but it kind of gets heavy handed especially towards the end of the scene when Joker goes into how Batman and Riddler are morally aligned and Batman subconsciously justifying and understanding how he thinks
When the scene shifts from what Batman suspects what Riddler actually knows and wants, I think it's less impactful if we go in even considering he's a Bat fan and a streamer. "We almost got him" worked because I think suspect it was going to be a thing.
Good point.
Loved the fact that Joker stole the paperclip off the folder without drawing attention to it.
That would have made for an amazing “oh shit,” moment when you see him slip off his cuffs in his cell (and most likely brutalize a guard and take his uniform in the process).
bro what... i just noticed that shit
@@crowcortez That’s the real reason why he was taunting Batman: not just to get under his skin but to distract from the swipe. He didn’t even bother looking at the folder when he grabbed it since he was in a hurry to get out of the room.
It’s so cool seeing a version of the Batman that’s genuinely unnerved by being around Joker, instead of just acting stoic all the time. You can see it actually having an effect on him. Inversely, I like that Joker is one of the only characters who isn’t creeped out by Batman. Just shows how demented his perception is.
In my head the paper clip was the first thing I noticed when Batman handed joker the file. I feel like there’s realistically no way Arkham would’ve allowed a pointy metal thing inside someone’s cell… but it’s such a small detail I suppose I can suspend my disbelief lol
@@jontsubota6235 Something tells me B-Man gets preferential treatment. Having a friend on the force has got to come with some benefits, including not getting patted down (the guy is a walking armory anyway).
I like that this is another example of how green he really still is. He’s so overly cocky that he thought Joker wouldn’t be able to get anything past him.
@@lordbauer5983 Right cuz the Joker understands Batman than most ppl despite him being a sick psychopath.
Just the way Barry Keoghan delivers the line, "Have you read this file" stays with me the whole time I'm watching the scene. I don't understand why yet, but every time I see the scene and get to that part I rewind it over and over again.
For me it's the part when he says "awee are you afraid he make u look soft?" and he cracks himself laughing. He is so natural in his delivery. I can't wait to see more of his joker on the big screen
@@gloria7190 totally totally agree
I think it resonates because it reminds us of when Hannibal Lecter says, "I've read the case file. Have you?"
*forcefully closes folder* THAT
This scene is absolutely epic but I’m extremely grateful it was cut from the film. The reveal that the riddler thought he was working with Batman the whole time was such a surprising subversion and completely blind sided me. I think this scene may have hinted too strongly at that and it may have lost some of the impact on a first viewing. Either way, I am very excited for more joker and Batman.
I agree and also believe that because the Joker was this creepy and impactful in just five minutes, he might've taken the shine away from the Riddler as well.
yeah, this was probably why the scene was removed.
And even though some amazing moments and shots, they couldn't just pick and choose from this scene to add in the movie without it looking scuffed so they had to kill their darlings and cut it out completely instead.
I wish Joker isn't the villain in the next movie. Keep him around like this and make him the final villain in the third movie.
@@ProtagonisTeneT I could see them incorporating the villains more organically into the framework of Gotham in the following films. Joker, Riddler, Penguin etc showing up in each one under different contexts. This films main villain definitely felt as if it was Gotham itself and it’d be cool to see them keep that theme running through a trilogy.
@@ProtagonisTeneT it’ll likely either be Mr Freeze or Hush in the second movie.
This reminds me a lot of the sequence in The Long Halloween where Batman profiled the Holiday Killer with Calendar Man in addition to the obvious Silence of the Lambs parallels. I loved it.
Batman goes to Joker in Killing Joke which implies he’s gone there before. So it was before silence of the lambs
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 the book came out the same year and red dragon came out in 1981. Could be a homage or just some from the era.
Wow silence of the lambs you're a genius aren't you
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 Red Dragon was written in 1981 and first adapted by Michael Mann as 'Manhunter' in 1986, which depicts Will Graham going to Hannibal Lecter to assist in the capture of Francis Dollarhyde, in the exact same manner as Batman does with Joker and Riddler.
Long Halloween had too many homages in it, or imo thefts. First it was The Godfather and then it was Silence of the Lambs. Loeb has a habit of doing this. In the age of Apocalypse comic, i think it was the one about Cable, theres a line stolen Terminator. In another X-men comic he steals a scene from Manhunter. Loeb's tropes are so annoying to me. BUT i will say that I enjoyed the long Halloween animated adaption.
“He may be a fan, or he may have a grudge against you”
Love that both of those are right, Riddler’s a fan of Batman, but has a grudge against Bruce Wayne
Wow great analysis
How many times have this comment been copied 😂
So what you are basically saying is, " he may either like you or hate you"
The screentests for the film had one with both of the Joker scenes on and another without the scenes and they ultimately decided for the version where they kept the second scene and removed this one which I think is the right call. This scene happens early on in the film after the second victim and not only does he pretty much predict the whole thing and actually succeed in profiling Riddler but it also takes away from the second scene later on where he would have been revealed. It also kind of diminishes the shock Batman feels (and what we, the audience, would feel) when he realizes Riddler's motivations since the Joker pretty much already told him. This was a fantastic scene but removing it was the right call and I'm kind of hoping it's not canon. The film didn't need it and nothing in the final cut felt like a piece was missing anyway.
I 100% agree beautifully said.
I agree but Jeremy also has a point about the ending scene feeling like a half assed reshoot
Beautifully said.
@@CabezasDePescado I dunno, I can't really relate to that criticism for 2 reasons. First, scenes that stand out feeling like reshoots to me are usually those that are visually inconsistent with the movie but that was still completely in line to me. Second, I kinda went into the film already knowing about the scenes and the test screenings so it didn't really feel off to me since I was expecting it. I think placement-wise, we're just used to seeing these things in mid/post-credits.
I suppose adding it like they have is the perfect place to have it. Beautiful done as we get the impact of him in the film while also getting to see this brilliant scene as it was intended without ruining the impact of catching the Riddler.
This scene reminds me why I love the Joker. Just like Batman, there are so many ways you can take the character and it will still be true to the character. He can be a mobster, a deadly prankster, or the psychopath (or all three!). He's just so versatile and fascinating! I can't wait to see more!
I loved the scene where he said to batman ‘’aaw, you afraid he makes you look soft?’’ The way he delivered that line and laughed after actually made me laugh aswell lol. Really like his take ok the Joker, you can tell he has more of a heath take of the character aswell.
and the cackle at the end mocking batman its so good
“It’s not about some version where he falls into a vat of chemicals and his face is distorted, or what [Christopher] Nolan did, where there’s some mystery to how he got these scars carved into his face,” he says. “What if this guy from birth had this disease and he was cursed? He had this smile that people stared at that was grotesque and terrifying. Even as a child, people looked at him with horror, and his response was to say, ‘Okay, so a joke was played on me,’ and this was his nihilistic take on the world.” - Matt Reeves
The disease is that he can’t stop smiling if I’m not mistaken right? Matt Reeves wasn’t talking about the Jokers skin and everything at the moment.
@@ZeroAxle yes it could be that he has a smiling disorder- so the skin and hair could be side effects or maybe some thing else happened 👀
Some days I remember it one way some days it's another. If I'm going to have an origin I prefer it to be multiple choice.
-Joker paraphrased
You can see the mental damage the tormenting has delivered. He's pulled out his hair, he's got scars all over, his mouth is all scabbed, and he's kind of a wreck. My theory is that most of it is self-harm because he handled the constant taunting and hate in an unhealthy way. I am excited to see if he talks about it.
Isn't that just joaquin phoenix s joker?
This looks so good, the psychological horror behind this joker is amazing.
Dang, it didn’t even take a second for me to wait until clicking here.
But yes, Barry is chilling. Imagine seeing this Joker in real life…scarier than Heath to be honest.
Better? Not sure. But this is a FREAKY Joker, and I’m loving Matt Reeves’ vision.
The man understands BATMAN.
I wasn't 100 percent on this Joker even though I love Barry and I know he's a fantastic actor. When I saw this though, I was sold. My only criticism is it's a little hard to understand what he's saying at times.
@@groverkiinmuppetborn714 Agreed, very much so.
At first, with the cameo, I wasn’t sold as the portrayal being “good”. Felt cheap.
But this scene…holy crap. And I barely know anything of Barry as an actor. Especially with the proper script and characterization, Barry could be the scariest Joker ever put to film, or in film media as a whole.
No one is going to top Ledger. No one. That’s quite literally an impossible feat. Can someone get close? Absolutely. But no, it will never be topped.
@@BloodyFlowerFilms I appreciate the enthusiasm! At one point I believed so too. However, Ledger’s variant wasn’t definitively…Joker, for me, you know what I mean? He didn’t embody the Clown Prince of Crime, the Jester of Genocide. Crime, genocide, psychological manipulation, all present, but the “Clown” and “Jester” aspect was lost for me.
He was perfect for his version, for the vision Nolan had. But is he the end all best? Not for me, no. Is anybody going to be? Never, because art is that subjective.
@@BloodyFlowerFilms I’ll Back you up on this. I think Ledger performance is Iconic and that’s why so many Jokers after him crib off of it (even here with Barry). To me there will be no definitive Joker because Joker as a character is a multiple choice of a character. There is no one solid answer to what he is!
It was a good scene and I loved the way this Joker looks. He looks like fell into a vat of chemicals, and Barry's interpretation of the character was fantastic. My take on it is that Joker has been in Arkham for a year at this point. The fact that Batman goes to him for some insight, shows that Batman considers this Joker to have above average intelligence. It was great.
it's pretty similar to Lecter, of course with other mannerisms.
@The Wraith then you’re blind
@The Wraith if you cant tell them apart youre blind and deaf. They are all clearly separated , and its not rocket science. Prob should take a break big guy. Youre too jaded.
I agree he looks like he fell into a vat of chemicals the burns and scars it makes sense.
He looks like Dane DeHaan's version of Green Goblin
This scene was so good bc it characterized batman rlly well thru his relationship w joker. It’s almost like a toxic relationship, where batman clearly has this connection to the joker, and there’s a mutual respect that isn’t there w other villains in the movie, but he knows it’s wrong.
I love how broken he looks. The layers on this Joker must be completely insane.
I think you mean “damaged” ;)
I think I’m Gonna need a damaged tattoo on his forehead for me to know
@@SuperMysteryboi Yeah this Joker didn’t feel as crazy as I wanted. I hoping to be told he was crazy rather than being shown.
He looks like a diseased, feral creature. Very unsettling.
@@thebatman4279 Good observation, Batman.
I really like this sense of the joker, dude playing him did a really good job. I just hope that they build up to the joker and don’t just make him the villain of the sequel. It would be cool if Batman comes to joker more and more which is what allows him to escape and sets up the final movie
Agreed
Matt Reeves said they have no plans to use the Joker in any of the sequels. Matt Reeves has a hard on for Mr. Freeze and said he wants to try and have him in a sequel.
Yeah, I hope they just sprinkle in the Joker in each movie. It seems like Barry will be a scene stealer and we’ve had 3 Jokers in 6 years now. Bring Red Hood or other villains out to play.
I would love to see a long Halloween movie with Joker in a Hannibal Lecter role
Love that idea!!!
A few reasons I feel the cut was probably necessary. First off, the pacing. I don't know whether this scene would really fit in anywhere. Secondly, diminishing Bruce somewhat (he makes a few mistakes, but him missing Joker's mental tricks would be too many in the same film). Lastly, spelling out everything might diminish the impact later on. It's still a cool scene though, and I'm glad they are making it available to fans. Granted, the hamfisted reveal later wasn't ideal, but these are small gripes for an otherwise amazing film.
The movie was terrible and they ruined characters
Beautifully said.
twistedmetalplayer21 Ha, right..
I think it is because "the Joker" sounds like a teenager with asthma,...this movie is so horribly miscast that it hurts. I'm not a fan of BvS, but how the fck can you go from Cristian Bale and Ben Affleck to this sparkling turd?
@Leath-bit seriously! People will complain about anything…especially if many others enjoy it!
Who is back after the latest Joker movie.
That scene was awesome, I love the way the joker came off like he could snap on a dime. There was this feeling of a mutual respect between the two, and the dialogue between them screamed, one bad day is the difference between the Batman and the Joker. Love it.
I think the reason they didn’t include it is that you can’t tease Joker earlier in the movie and not expect him to come in a big way later on in the movie! We would all just be waiting for the joker to show up again in the finale. It would undermine the riddler in the movie quite a bit
I believe matt reeves addressed it in and interview. He described this scene and said they removed it because they felt it took the focus of the film and felt out of place (or something along those lines). I think the scene on its own is great I love it and it feels like it adds more context to the other scene with him in. However I need to see where the scene was placed if it was left in the film. Like I trust Reeves when he says it felt out of place like it could have felt different being in the actaul film in terms of continuity
You are correct I saw this exact interview a few days after the movie. Well done
It definitely would've stolen the spotlight of the riddler being the main villain, especially for a scene this good
I just don’t see Joker Being the villain of the Sequel. But this Makes Joker his Character in this new franchise . But we have to wait and see when he’s ready to step in into this upcoming franchise.
I could see him as the villain in the fourth flim or at the very least third flim as a secert villain
They could do Calander Man in the sequel, and Joker helps him solve the case along with Gordon. At the end of the film, Joker breaks everyone out of Arkham to set up for the 3rd film. Just so much they could do with this.
@pmerk25 understandable
He’s rumored to be in the Gotham PD show, set in Arkham if I recall
Loved the scene! I think part of the reason it was deleted is it would have taken the audiences focus away from riddler knowing there’s another big bad villain around the corner waiting to be unleashed. It also reveals a lot of thr theme of the movie. It’s giving away too much about the riddler and how Batman feels. Still love that we got see that interaction
I think the scene was likely cut out so that the focus could stay on The Riddler and the rest of the story. I think if this scene was in the middle of the movie, it would have been too distracting and audiences would have been thinking "OMG they're doing The Joker again" rather than focusing on the story this film was telling. I liked the scene, but think it was wise to leave it out.
I didn’t really like that we were getting yet ANOTHER cinematic Joker, as Batman has a whole slew of villains the movies could use, but this deleted scene made me change my mind a bit. This Joker has potential.
The best line is when joker says “I know who he is” but he meant it in a more spiritual sense of “I understand this person”. But Batman takes it literally and asks “who is he?”
Great dialogue juxtaposition of how each character expresses themselves
Edit: corrected the quote
damn didnt think about it like that.
Batman should’ve known better since why else would he seek help from an unhinged psycopath if not for finding commonalities between these folks. I think he was aware of that but he was so in a rush to dig up the truth that he missed what’s so obvious right in front of his face
He thinks they know each other personally lol
@@rhetiq9989 that's probably one of the reasons this scene got removed
It's a cool scene to watch now and wouldn't mind it included back in the movie for an extended cut, but I just finished watching it a few minutes ago and I feel it was a good call to cut the scene for two reasons. First, it's unnerving as hell and having the joker appear as a Hannibal Lector type villain in the first film of the series would immediately steal all the attention away from The Riddler, who should remain the focus as the films main threat. The Joker is too popular that no matter what he inevitably going to be the thing people will focus on. The second reason I think it was a good reason to cut it is he's giving away The Riddler's motives and immediately ends the mystery of the movie. It's not even vague hints that become clear on a rewatch, he's saying exactly what The Riddler's motives are. So watching this clip after seeing the film is amazing but good call to remove it.
Fully agree. My thoughts exactly. In a vacuum it's an excellent scene but had it been in the movie it would have have diminished the effect of the ending and also steered attention away from the Riddler which wouldn't have been good. Despite what Jeremy and some others have said, I actually like the small cameo the Joker has in the actual movie. It hints at a larger world without taking the attention away from the main plot. Could this longer scene have been a post credit scene? Like as a flashback? Possibly.
I also think that this scene definitely would've made that I Am Vengeance line at the end of the movie more hard hitting. We get to see Batman's closest nemesis point out how he's no different than most of the people he beats, and the idea that the Batman feels guilty because he's responsible for burning the joker, that's freaking dope. His greatest villain being a constant reminder of the day he went too far.
I feel the same way and not only that but in this deleted scene it at least gets the introduction to Joker "out of the way" so to speak. And it does it well. We need an intro to Joker and we do need him as a side character this time and I thought this worked but oh well
This really adds a lot to world, I love the fact that they’ve already had they’re first encounter prior to these events. I think it’s about time we see how the interact in the prime of their careers. While I’m glad they released this scene I’m also glad they took it out because it would’ve taken away from the prime conflict of the movie and everybody’s attention would’ve gone to this one scene it would’ve ruined the rest of the movie. I can’t wait to see them deliver on more interactions later but I also don’t want him to be the next main villain, Joker shouldn’t always be the main antagonist, sometimes he works just fine as just another foil
I agree that we need more interactions between Batman and the Joker like this scene, but I also want to see the Joker be the final main antagonist for Batman in the future. There are plenty of great Joker stories from DC that need to be told in live-action. Imagine Barry Keoghan’s Joker killing Robin in the third or final film!? That would be the most intense scene in any Batman movie!
Crazy seeing how much Jeremy has grown. I’ve been watching this dude for so many years. He deserves all of his fame.
I loved this interpretation of the joker. Dude honestly killed it
I hope the scene is included in the Blu-ray.
*I'm tired of seeing the Joker all the time. Ledger in 2008, Leto in 2016, Phoenix in 2019, Cameron Monaghan in Gotham and now this guy? It's like DC and Warner Bros. forgot Batman has a rogues gallery of other villains they can use.*
Killed it in the sense that the character is now dead and ruined
@@starhunter9085 they literally just used the Riddler who hasn’t been around in decades
@@somerandolad hopefully along with a Black and White edition of the film :)
Something Beyond the Trailer mentioned that I really agree with on why it was cut. It reveals the Riddler’s actual feelings and motives. At this point in the movie, most of us think that Riddler is antagonizing Batman. But Riddler thinks they are working together. This scene would spoil that a little. But you might be able to cut around that dialogue and keep this scene.
I wouldn't care get spoil by this scene, this is great
I actually quite like the idea of using Joker as a sort of Hannibal Lecter figure in this new Batman story. It would mean we would still get Joker, but in a different sort of way and not as much. We've gotten so much Joker over the years that another one fighting Batman face-to-face would be white noise, but having him in this position could sort of give new life to the character.
Here’s my take:
They should have left the scene in. Where the scene would’ve fallen chronologically in the movie’s timeline would’ve setup the eventual revelation Bruce had that he should abandon the vengeance motif for why Batman exists and change fully to being a symbol of hope. As the movie laid out Bruce’s character arc, he kept making these mistakes, which was phenomenal, but at the end, when he stops Seline from killing her pops, it was like he suddenly made the realization of his own corruption of the populace without any foundation of why he started feeling this way. And I can’t shake the feeling of it coming across that he changed “for love.”
This scene plants the seed early on that Bruce, at this point in the movie, isn’t as fully committed to vengeance as he was at first. Joker taunting him by pointing out that Bruce does feel like some of the corrupt people deserved their fate begins Bruce thinking that maybe he’s going about this the wrong way. It sets the stage for him preventing Seline from going down the same path of her father, and it further drives home the “hope” ideology when he demasks the Riddler clone at the end and hears his moniker to his own horror. I think this scene would’ve more fully fleshed out Bruce’s character arc, and definitely would’ve added to the story.
Plus, it’s the fucking Joker.
i’m so happy that barry keoghan’s getting more recognition, he’s an amazing actor
I always pictured this being a scene in The Dark Knight Rises if Heath Ledger was still alive but they kept Bane as the main antagonist.
Just imagine how epic that scene would of been ! Damn Heath was taking too soon 😔 fuckkk
0:00 Why yes, but instead of it happening for a day, it happened to me for a whole year 😂
When Joker says 'maybe he sees you as the main course"
What if he knows batman is Bruce but joker just won't really ruin it
Just watched the deleted scene and then now watched this video (your video Jeremy) and I loved the deleted scene (glad it wasn’t in the movie honestly but glad it exists) and it felt like it would have fit perfectly in the movie. Which makes me kinda wish it was in the movie because of how awesome it would have been as part of Batman’s lore in this franchise
*If Joker is already in prison* and him and Batman don’t properly know each other.. then I’d say they’re building up the “Serious House” storyline.. where Joker lets the Arkham staff leave during a riot and traps Batman in Arkham with his entire rogues gallery.. an isolated Batman movie like the Raid would be “Movie of The Year”
So kind of like Arkham Asylum the video game..?
Sounds like Ben Affleck's Batman script Jay Oliva mentioned.
They could also throw in a trial of sorts like they did in BTAS
Trabo - Arkham Asylum was inspired by “A Serious House”
The best video he could ever make is one that shows him actually expressing himself with no edits whatsoever
Probably two reasons for this scene getting pulled.
1. Batman clearly doesn't know the answers and needs Joker to explain it all to him. This takes away from him feeling like 'world's greatest detective' angle they were focusing on so much in the movie.
2. Joker explains all the twists about Riddler's identity and motives. This takes away from the later reveals about Riddler.
Would have been poor execution to just have another character explain this all to Batman. You don't want to downplay both the skills of your protagonist and the reveals of your antagonist. Would have been like Killer Croc just explaining the Joker's backstory, wouldn't be satisfactory to find out about it that way.
Going against your first point- batman doesn't know basic Spanish. That's not really smart. Especially for a rich education
Well for 1 there is an exactly same scene in the comics where this movie was loosely based on but it was with calendar man instead of The Joker. Doesnt take anything away from him he is trying to get in the mind of a serial killer by talking to one and again this is his second year he still has a lot to figure out. Looks like joker and riddler has been the only big thing that he has faced against in his two years besides beating the sht out of regular thugs.
In terms of where the scene could fit into the runtime, I would cut to it after Bruce is in the hospital right after Alfred gets injured from the Riddler's bomb. Because now that he and his home have been targeted, the conflict has become more urgent and personal, and he instantly becomes desperate enough to go to his worst enemy for help.
This scene is better than the entire movie. That is why it was cut.
I think they didn’t want to overwhelm the audience and themselves , bringing in a new joker after so many , is always tough . considering the Jared Leto flop , I really think this scene was meant to be released later on to allow people the time they need to adjust to the new cinematic approach and to capture their reactions, after they have been teased in the movie. Smart approach. Because if they had included it and people didn’t like the scene the whole focus of the audience will shift towards the joker because he will steal the movie if we like him and it will ruin the movie if we don’t.
Jared Leto's Joker wasn't a flop. The bad writing is what failed the character. Not the actor's performance.
Jeremy is so articulate yet so fun to watch doing these reviews. Love your videos keep it up
The scene was cut because Joker pretty much spoils what happens in the movie and the whole plot Riddler was pulling. It would feel cheap to have Batman get this info and not use it to get Riddler and then in the end you go "Oh yeah, Joker was right".
What makes the scene great is Barry's laugh, everytime he does its when he thinks something is ironic and actually funny.
Completely agree with potential reasons why and I think #2 design might be it. We've never seen a Joker like this, brutally, horrifyingly scarred all over. I loved it but I feel like this was going to be a divisive decision down to the wire. Remember the heaps of bad press and reactions on social media Leto's Joker got when his design was released. This is a lot more visceral, that last shot with the mouth (genius btw) might have represented to big of a creative risk.
Although that scene admittedly sent a chills on my back and I think it was great as a stand alone scene, I think it was a good decision from Reeves to cut it from the movie.
The only reason for that being is that since it would probably be early on in the movie, (when Batman still tries to connects all the pieces as to why the Riddler did what he did) it would have undermined the self-revelation that Batman reaches at the end of the movie that perhaps being “Vengeance” isn’t too far from being a villain and what people need for Gotham to stop being at a never ending cycle of violence is Hope.
So, if that Joker scene was included, Batman would have had already a hint from his discussion with the Joker that perhaps his motives are not too different from the Riddler.
This would have definitely underpowered the dynamic of the movie’s conclusion in my opinion…
It would’ve be interesting if Joker is an “ally” for the rest of trilogy.
I love the dynamic here. They both hold hatred for each other but are also each fascinated by the other. I genuinely think it would be in character for joker to continue to agree to these meetings solely to get a closer look into Bruce’s personality
You did get Vigilante Joker in telltale, right
Or just like Joker and Batman working together to defeat Batman who Laughs
Seems like Gotham's Jerome/Jeremiah but with more of a Ledger impression again, but I'm sold on him now. Way better scene than the Riddler scene at the end, which feels like a reshoot. But glad this was cut, as it takes away from the "interrogation" scene. Can't wait for more now!
One day, ONE DAY, an american will pronounce Keoghan right. Today is not that day
If they put this joker scene in the movie, it would have ruined the threat and impact of the riddler knowing that there’s a bigger scarier villian right around the corner
I think it was cut because the riddler's motive was very clearly alluded to. Otherwise, a really good scene for sure.
Again, I’m reminded of the TellTale Batman games. And how, in “The Enemy Within” I did everything I could to keep Joker from killing people…to keep him my (Batman’s) friend. And, at the end of the game, I was rewarded with a cutscene that gave me goosebumps and brought a tear to my eye. Cuz, I’m a sap!!
Exactly....talks very similar when joker is upset in tell-tale series...
I noticed a lot of similarities between this movie and the Telltale series.
Same!
Thanks for the tip, now I know to try a playthrough like that when I FINALLY play enemy within
That's a zombie Joker 😨
This scene is sweet. Really captures all the best things about this movie. Can’t believe they cut it out.
In terms of where the scene could fit, a lot of people say it couldn't work because Joker guesses Riddler's backstory almost perfectly, and I definitely see that perspective.
However given it hints at Bruce's brutal vengeance complex and his villains being "inspired" by him which is addressed in the finale, I think this scene might be able to work much earlier on in the movie. It'd predict Riddler's backstory yes but so much happens before the third act that I think it wouldn't deflate Riddler's origin reveal, most would forget what Joker even said, and it'd also enhance Bruce's realization that he can't be the brutal vigilante anymore and needs to inspire the citizens of Gotham rather than the criminals.
There'll be an extended cut of this movie with this scene. I think they wanted to see our reaction first and probably thought the scene was a bit much after they did it
This joker version could be really interesting with the right storyline and visual direction of Matt Reeves
this Joker scene is so much better than the tacked on one at the end. However, this scene reveals too much thats meant to slowly burn and is a little too on the nose with Joker pointing out the similarities between batman and riddler
I really am meh on this incarnation of the Joker, and almost feel a little Joker'd out. Almost time to let him go for a minute and bring other villains to the forefront. I really want to see Clayface in live action
Or Scarecrow or The Court of Owls
clay face would be awesome if done right. I think Poison Ivy is due for a new adaptation also.
@@sambelyea678 man, I can already imagine her theme by Michael Giacchino
@@ivancores2574 Scarecrow would be really fun to see i think. Let Batman get trippy and scary.
This scene is essentially the same scene as Batman talking to Riddler in Arkham Asylum. The Riddlers motivations are revealed and he gets under Batman’s skin. It wouldn’t make sense to have both.
So glad they cut this because this was good, really really good. Depending on the writing, a full joker and Batman movie with those two would be incredible. Make it more a year one and prequel. If this was in the movie, first run in the theaters, it would take away from the Riddler, and Paul Dano was amazing in the role. I like this Detective Batman feel. Much better than the Swiss Army knife gadget superhero version many have come to expect with the JLA.
the best batman villains are the ones that reflect an aspect of batman's character but in a darker way. Like how batman is all about vengeance in the movie and he does that by fighting crime, and the Riddler does it by murdering people.
The way I saw the last scene, which made me appreciate it more, was showing the audience how damaged people become being in Gotham City. It really drove home the point that nobody gets out of Gotham in one piece...
It's because the audience would have been focused on Joker, rather than riddler and plot at hand.
Thank you for linking the subject of commentary in the description!
The self-awareness of the “yeah this dates over” line is why I follow you. Sure The Joker is a great character, but should never be idolized or hero-worshipped. (I will say a Joker tattoo isn’t an instant red flag but it certainly brings up a yellow)
you say it isn't a red flag, but here in Brazil around the criminal circles it means cop killer...
@@LahyriAurbach Depending what the cops are doing that's not necessarily a bad thing👀
Ah bueno xD saludos de Argentina
@@JainaSoloB312 i somewhat agree, but that's not really the case here...
@@LahyriAurbach sure but that's specific to your area. My initial statement still stands that it isn't INHERENTLY a red, but most certainly a yellow card. But damn I didn't know this. Makes sense but that def is a red flag in Brazil then! lol
The scene is good but I think having the Joker almost solve a big part of the mystery for Batman would take away from the film overall. But a directors cut of this would be amazing.
I think they cut this scene because it lessens the interrogation scene with Riddler later on in the movie. It makes that scene feel a little “been there, done that” as well as it alludes to the fact that Riddler is a big fan of Batman and views him as an ally, spoiling the surprise for later.
So I think they viewed this as perhaps a great scene on its own, that may lessen the rest of the movie around it.
Batman feels like he had something to do with joker's face situation. But with such long movie yeah I'm glad they cut it but then release it later for some extra context.
My personal opinion: I already love this Joker but I think they should wait a little longer. We already had Ledger and Joaquin, and I think is about time they explore Batman's other villains. Still, amazing actor and I really wanna see more of him maybe in a third movie
Remarkable! Just when I thought we were becoming over-saturated with the Joker, this falls in our laps. Now, I want a whole The Batman sequel dedicated to this rendition of the Clown Prince of Crime. He may be the creepiest version yet.
I love the look, it's great take on the character. My only gripe is that, IMO, the Joker isn't the right villain for this kind of scene/interaction. The 'asking the villain for help' trope in this universe would be more suited to the Riddler or Hugo Strange. That aside, very much looking forward to seeing Barry Keoghan strut his stuff.
or even "Calendar Man" if they wanted to pay homage to a great Batman story.
Or dummy or scarecrow
The look is good, the concept of "asking the villain for help" is not that bad (I agree that cliche suits better with the more methodical villains like you mentioned)... but man, the actor sounded completely off imo, zero tension, no threatening at all, no "crazy" overtones... nothing, the actor doesn't have a presence. And that is a huge flaw because the Joker is supposed to be a very impactful character, but what we have here is just the curiosity about his deformed looks, but the acting itself, the line delivery, the laugh... none of these things felt right imo
Jeremy have you watched Peacemaker would love to hear your thoughts on the season
Yeah, Clooney and Kidman were at the top of their game.
@@KahlessTheUnforgettable maybe
Was like a fan film sequence honestly
I wish I could hear and understand Joker better in the scene.
This scene is absolutely magnificent and while it is only 5 minutes, it adds a little bit more to Batman’s/Bruce’s character development, it absolutely should have been left in.
Agreed!
Wrong. The Joker would've stole the movie.
@@joewas2225 it's much better than the scene where he spoke with Riddler at Arkham. That felt so out of place.
There are two specific reasons why the deleted Joker scene could not have made the final cut. The first is that this version of Batman was intended to be more closer to the World's Greatest Detective than any previous portrayal and in this scene he is effectively given the answers to the Riddler's identity rather than working it out for himself. The second is the inclusion of this scene would have also stolen the limelight from Paul Dano's Riddler.
I do agree that the scene that was in the movie where the Joker "befriends" the Riddler in Arkham State Prison looked like it was tacked on to foreshadow the direction of the next film.
That scene plus the deleted one have led to a lot of criticism from people about them "playing it safe" by revealing the Joker and/or not giving other villains in the Batman Universe a chance. The thing is that the Joker is Batman's archenemy and you can't have multiple movies in a particular universe without his presence.
Barry Keoghan's take on the character in just this one deleted scene was fantastic. His portrayal seems to be equally psychotic and intelligent instantly making his Joker a fascinating character. There is enough there in just that one scene to show the fans that they can offer a different take on a character that has appeared four times in feature films since 1989 with four completely different interpretations of him.
This scene was absolutely incredibly well done and that joker needs to happen. Wow. Different type of dark in this scene. Incredible.
No it wasn't. He was just heath ledger 2.0
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@swaroop7021 technically every joker to come after Heath will be that because of what he did for the character. If you can’t get past that then I doubt you will be able to enjoy any iteration of the joker moving forward.
@@thefinderskeep1680 Well said.
@@thefinderskeep1680 This doesn't make any sense. Leto and Joaquin were nothing like Heath, and there's hundreds of interpretations of the Joker to draw on. We don't need a bargain bin Heath, he already gave his great performance.
i agree brö joker’s been my fav character from anything since i was lil ass kid & it’s honestly influenced my personality & taste
I think it was removed because it was a little on the nose, joker just straight up tells Batman exactly what’s happening, but now that we’ve seen it an extended version including this would be cool
I also thought the scene with the joker at the end of the movie was extremely week. And I like that they cut that scene as well. It would’ve taken everything away from the riddler. Plus when show him so soon. What made Chris Nolan’s set up for joker so good was that we didn’t see him in the first one, we just get a mention that there’s a new guy leaving calling cards at his crimes, then we see the jokers card. Imagine if we saw Heath ledgers joker in a security camera at the end of Batman begins. It would’ve taken away from his character immensely.
100% agree.. but then again.. I wasn’t too crazy about The Batman anyways.. but seeing the Joker at the end of the film just made me go MEH. Wish we didn’t see him at all until the sequel.. the element of surprise is kind of gone.
@@zacgale4231 I actually think it’s easily the second best Batman movie after the dark knight. I loved the noir style of everything but then again I’m a sucker for anything noir
I'd like to see a sequel with Scarecrow (personally, I'd cast Greg Bryk), and maybe a grounded Poison Ivy that doesn't have powers but is just a seductive ecoterrorist, then a Joker finale to tie everything together.
Funny how Greg Bryk also uses hallucinogenic gas in a video game.
Father is that you???
There’s literally no point in grounding a character with superpowers tho tbh - Posion Ivy without her powers just wouldn’t be the character.
@@firstlast9846 not really, Bane in DKR worked perfectly
@@thebigshep Bane was just a normal guy in TDKR he didn't even have venom
Honestly I was hoping they wouldn’t reference the joker at all in this film. He’s been way too over saturated give us some other villains
Yea but where there is Batman, there has to be Joker somewhere down the line. Just hope Matt reeves can get the chance to do more films than a trilogy, then they could introduce anyone like Clock King, Scarecrow, Killer Croc ( unless he is trying to stay realistic, Hopefully not), Firefly, Ivy, Clayface, Zassz( I know im spelling it wrong), Two face , and etc.
Mr. Freeze might be the next one for all we know, and we might even see multiple villains in that one.
Im surprised we even got this scene at all! It just came up into my YT feeds and im like...sweet!
Ive been a massive fan of The Batman since release but for some reason never got around to seeing this deleted clip. I love this interaction, adds another layer to Batman and I like the Crazy intellectual vibe this Joker has. Shouldve been in the Movie.
I'm intrigued but also see why they cut this scene. A lot of the info given to us in the scene by the Joker was given to us better in other scenes in the movie imo. It felt more natural than Joker just telling Batman all this.
Definitely should have been in the, just a chilling presence and scene
Might’ve stolen some heat from riddler
@@heelmoxley365 Mostttt definitely would have, especially in the audience eyes
The best thing about this version of The Joker is: he doesn't laugh like a seagull.
@@heelmoxley365 Nah,I thought it elevated the conversation between the Joker and the Riddler.
it felt kinda meh for me, it felt like gotham the series joker, kinda meh, in the first minute it felt like a dude imitating ledgers joker than it went to jerome(gotham's) joker, the joker creates hype automatic but Its just feels okay for me. could go either way
I wish they didn't have joker in the movie at all. This is a young batman, joker usually shows up later. There are plenty of villains they could have thrown in. I think Barry Keoghan is a great choice tho.
I think the main reason it was cut was it took the focus out of the movie. If you have a major villain like joker just cameo in half way and not show up again it’ll just feel weird. But I can’t wait to see more!
Love your thoughts Jeremy, also since you talked about wanting/hoping the scene is on the blu ray, does this mean your rating went up from 'no alcohol required' to 'buy on blu ray' ? :D
Keep up the excellent work, following you for more than a decade now, starting with the Avatar review :)
I'm honestly glad it was cut. Like he said the riddler feels like the first big threat he's faced but then to not only say that batman's already fought the joker but to also relegate him to a 5 minute scene just doesn't feel right to me. I'm really hoping that idea stays scrapped and the final scene of the movie is him before he really becomes the joker.
Now that I think of it, I also have a problem with the idea that there's some history (backstory) in the universe of that film that we never got to see. Maybe I'm just a bit traditional about it but I do like the idea that within the 2 years of being Batman, The Riddler would be the biggest threat yet. We just assumed that everyone he fought before the events of the movie were goons and small time criminals who were working for the mob...well, the movie did kind of implied that.
Also, it feels like this scene would've made Bats a little bit more dependent on the Joker's thoughts in figuring things out. He shouldn't, he's supposed to be smart. On top of that, we are treated with a chemistry that we're not really established with. The only reason why it works for us is because we know the history (comic) between these 2 characters.
So yeah, despite the scene being good, I'm glad they cut it and as for the little cameo in the final cut, that deserved to be cut also. We never really needed a Joker tease for this one. Felt like they were retreading the tease in Batman Begins.
I will say this is the scariest looking Joker I have seen. Felt very much like a horror movie.
Not any from the arkham games?
They can't go wrong with this , they got everything right. The music , the atmosphere , the color tone and the makeup and costumes.
While it is a good scene, it kind of ruins Batman’s later development and realisation as the Joker has to tell him rather than Batman figuring it out himself. It was a good move that it was cut.
Exactly.
As an Irish man thank you SO much for pronouncing Keoghan correctly it’s much appreciated👍🏻
shut up greenman
As an Irish man I can say it annoys me as the part of our Isle I am from would say keyo-han rather than keyo-gan.
It's pronounced KYO-han. With little emphasis on the han, and all ran together quickly without a gap between the syllables. So he was actually pretty far off, but I'll give him credit for trying.
The fact the scene is self is deleted and STILL IS AMAZING. Proves how great the movie is