There's a PDF online from Electronics Today 1977 with an instruction how to make a DIY ignition secondary probe. If I remember it right, they suggest a maybe 2" wide strip of tin foil wrapped around the ignition lead, to that foil you connect a 1nF capacitor (different sizes can be used to adjust voltage, the same goes for the width of the tin foil) to ground, an a 1 megaohm resistor parallell to the capacitor. Then you just connect the scope to the tin foil wrap. Similar to the wire wrap, but with a way to limit the voltage = less risk of BBQing the scope. As far as i know the store bought secondary probes use this basic construction.
Thank you Darren. You may want to capture the same ignition event simultaneously with all 4 probes connected to the four channels? You would avoid whatever might be caused by differences/changes between different combustion events. Another economy trick is to use a paper clip around the ignition wire, one of those that look like a butterfly where you press on the levers to open them. Then you connect your gator with the test lead to it. It will work as a capacative probe, like the pico, rotkee and hantek.
Honestly the Rotkee seems to have the cleanest waveform. And it's more consistently detected by the pico. Thanks for the demo :) you definitely have the more useful + interesting contents on UA-cam. So i appreciate that. one small detail, i really would've liked to see a paddle probe and see how it compares. I've got one from aeswave and i think pico has a more expensive version.
Thanks! I like your observation 👍. I have a couple of paddle probes and can compare them to this clamp plus the coin method etc. I’ll line that video up. Cheers
I thought I'd subscribed to enough diagnostic UA-cam channels but I've decided (after viewing several of Darren's posts) that there's room for one more
I like we are all on the same wavelength, pondering the same questions. I’m grateful I get to share these experiments and enjoy doing them! More to come 😁
I strongly lean towards the Rotkee. That being said, I do own all the "nice" accessories from Pico however I have purchased two 2204's to use for the younger ones to learn . Mainly for understanding how and when to use an attenuator and get to grips with using a scope. For this I was looking at the Rotkee accessories. Good value for money.
My vote goes to pico Others are not really bad either although after personally testing several units I noticed there is always something to adjust while pico is consistent. Now I keep the other units for cylinder reference duties.
Someone else noticed the consistency; I wonder what they do different. I think as long as you use the same tool while testing, the comparison will stand out. I have an older Pico clamp which I did t compare here, would have been good in hindsight 😆
Would the wire coil not be a bit risky for your scope as it’s not grounded in the event of a lead arcing out and sending all that energy straight to the scope. Just a thought. Great comparison of probes here.
Possibly. Not sure how much a risk it is without the scope being part of the voltage differential (ie if it’s not connected to chassis ground, current shouldn’t flow through it). I was going to try actually, see what happens! Thanks
The Hantek et al are capacitive pickups and measure the voltage on the line, the coil is an inductive pickup and measuring the current that flows in the line. I've got no experience with spark ignition, but maybe you could use both the further analyze the system.
Darren thanks for sharing. If I get a chance this weekend I have the ROTKEE the Hantec and Micsig and AES wave U scope. Should be interesting. Nice shop you have there. Very nice job. Darren hope all is well 😊
This was standard training back in the day , firing lines are the same weather created by a set of points or an ECU , Raster and firing lines ask any Crypton of Sun machine man , however your doing a good job teaching old school, perhaps you should try AFR and how that applies to carburettor settings?
I think the Darren mechanic mindset coil is the one for this hobbiest. I believe you'd get a much better waveform out of it if you used only 1 wrap. I think the additional wraps are picking up more noise like an antenna. Something I wish I could go outside and try, but all my cars are cop, and I don't have the extenders.
Nice hypothesis! I was wondering whether more or less windings would be best. The clamp definitely picks up a lot. I think I’d need something to trigger to prove out the interference vs measured coil 👍
Hantek is great value and nice quality. I think as long as you have 2 of the same probes to compare, you’ll get the results you want. Mix and match probes, you could get misleading tests results 👍
Using the preset channel for configuration for the first two and a custom one for the Rotkee skewed the comparison test results. You should have revisited the first two and using custom settings it might have been possible to get a better trace. The only one which showed the combustion adequately was the Rotkee.
Another Awesome video, Darren, Thank you for all that you do, i personally prefer 'Home made things' we need to campaign for your promotion in a 'BOND MOVIE' as ' Q' (fittingly) with all these innovative Hack's , perhaps you'll get Global recognition with it's Fame and Fortune too, i can just picture you with Cubbi Broccoli (not the fat version of a Vegetable) but the producer of many Bond Films, and you continuously produce ever more Gadgets and design innovations, now that would be electrifying !! Lol 🙂
Not wasted spark. Many modern engines have multiple injection phases and also now multi spark. Just as an example the Mercedes M256 inline six cylinder is multi spark unless you unplug the rail pressure sensor. I often find the pattern very difficult to interpret and I haven't found any information online on how to analyse this type of ignition
do you need to do that with those plug extension cables? that seems like a complicated setup. and then the extension cables go attached to the spark plugs? could you explain that part better. I know you are measuring for ignition voltage signal how do you get those cables? finally, does the scanner provides that signal? I guess not ahh?
Great vid. If you don't fck around with it you will never learn its full potential. If you bared the other end of your wire and you had a reverse polarity if you put the clip on the other end it should turn it positive, what do you reckon. Love your work.
Hello Darren I just got the Hantek but i still haven't used yet. I have one question do I need to "tell" my pico scope 2k series that I have antenuetor or I can just connect it as it is and read the wave form?
Being a DIY'er I'm going for the Hantek. I'm thinking the Pico probe has a little cleaner trace but the Hantek has a usable trace even for beginners. Thank you!!!!!
I was going to show all live on the same screen but the time base wasn’t suitable, so just did it like this. Makes for a better thumbnail picture 😅. But yeah, possible some minor discrepancies between cylinders, this gives the broad idea 👍
have you ever moved the clamp on different places to see if you can get a real good waveform. i forgot to try last time i had sparkplug wires. my autel secoundary ignition clamp seems to work like your pico and hantek probable made by same co. i know with the 2in. copper sq. and the clamp i can get a nice waveform COP but, you must find the sweet spot.
Perhaps you may get away with not using one, but there's no downside to using it and it reduces the risk of damaging the scope. Might as well put it on there, better safe than sorry. Especially as using a 2204 implies your budget may be limited, wouldn't want to risk damaging it.
@@MechanicMindset I mentioned a DIY probe in a separate post, using tin foil around the wire and a capacitor connected to ground. This gives you a capacitive voltage divider, about 1pF capacitance between the ignition wire and tin wrap, and 1000 times larger capacitance between the wrap and ground thanks to the added capacitor. This makes a ~1000:1 voltage divider, different sizes can be used for other attenuations. Those voltages may sitt be a bit high for a 2204, so attenuating isn't a bad idea. You never want to see the overvoltage warning when using the scope at its highest voltage range, you know it's more than the scope can show but you have no idea how much more. Could easily be enough to damage it.
I think the is a reason why they all have a clamp to put on chassi ground.. This amount of voltage will create a spike inside the test leads like any coil ..so without that ground cable you will burn your scope
Yeah I need to check where the ground connects, the voltage is quite low because I think there is an attenuator, but if there is a fault and the spark leaks, it should protect.
I cut my teeth using BIG, SUN Engine Analyzers in the 1980's; the scope patterns were AWESOME. Waveforms were stable, predictable, repeatable & analog. When SUN introduced the INTERROGATOR, and subsequent models with DIGITAL scope, the waveforms got choppy and went to hell. In 2024, the one thing that hasn't seen improvement from legacy SUN ewuipment is the IGNITION SECONDARY WAVEFORM 😢.
I suppose the analogue waveform will be hard to beat there. My Granddad had one in his van, mobile home tuning! The 12 bit scopes are pretty good though. The 8 bit can’t cut it really.
As expected the pico one looks best. But now i wonder. Can we use the pico scope to check for RF signal from key fob remotes? And which way is best.. If you get a clean signal, remember to hide the registration of the vehicle so noone can find it and open it from watching (the soon to come video?)😜
@@MechanicMindset sure enough my 22 year old Audi A4 B5.5 uses 433.92 Mhz. Didn't concider it was that high... Might be possible to get something with an scope with lower bandwidth but will probably be garbage signal but maybe enugh to tell if it is sending something at all. I have a 2 usd spy cam finder that screams when i use my key fob close to it and i doubt it uses any high bandwidth chip but just looking for some oscillation signal
![HOW TO DIAGNOSE CAN BUS FAULTS [PicoScope 2204A Powertrain High Speed CAN] Mechanic Mindset](/img/n.gif)
There's a PDF online from Electronics Today 1977 with an instruction how to make a DIY ignition secondary probe. If I remember it right, they suggest a maybe 2" wide strip of tin foil wrapped around the ignition lead, to that foil you connect a 1nF capacitor (different sizes can be used to adjust voltage, the same goes for the width of the tin foil) to ground, an a 1 megaohm resistor parallell to the capacitor. Then you just connect the scope to the tin foil wrap. Similar to the wire wrap, but with a way to limit the voltage = less risk of BBQing the scope.
As far as i know the store bought secondary probes use this basic construction.
Just saw this mate; I’ll check it out!
Thank you Darren.
You may want to capture the same ignition event simultaneously with all 4 probes connected to the four channels? You would avoid whatever might be caused by differences/changes between different combustion events.
Another economy trick is to use a paper clip around the ignition wire, one of those that look like a butterfly where you press on the levers to open them. Then you connect your gator with the test lead to it. It will work as a capacative probe, like the pico, rotkee and hantek.
I’ll give the paper clip a go! I like the sound of that.
Yes for sure, I’ll follow up with a single cylinder test 👍
Ammazing and it even works on coilpacks a type that all four coiled packed in a black box and altogether directly sits on plugs
Honestly the Rotkee seems to have the cleanest waveform. And it's more consistently detected by the pico. Thanks for the demo :) you definitely have the more useful + interesting contents on UA-cam. So i appreciate that.
one small detail, i really would've liked to see a paddle probe and see how it compares. I've got one from aeswave and i think pico has a more expensive version.
Thanks! I like your observation 👍. I have a couple of paddle probes and can compare them to this clamp plus the coin method etc. I’ll line that video up. Cheers
You are doing an excellent job!
Keep up the good work and always stay honest, that's what makes me follow you.
Cheers!
I thought I'd subscribed to enough diagnostic UA-cam channels but I've decided (after viewing several of Darren's posts) that there's room for one more
Great you can join us! 😂
Old school we were taught check dwell, firing line , spark line. All where usable patterns
My grandad had a Sun tester on the van for his mobile tuning business. All relevant stuff, lots to learn if you know what to look for! 👍
@@MechanicMindset yup had a old snap on back in 75
Daren what I like about you channel is all the options you give great ideas especially if your on a budget thanks
I like we are all on the same wavelength, pondering the same questions. I’m grateful I get to share these experiments and enjoy doing them! More to come 😁
Good comparison, Rotkee is the one I would say here , clearer waveform, cheers
Lots of 👌👌👌👌 for Rotkee. Cheers Rob!
never took notice! thanks for the info .got it all setup now on my MP408
Awesome video. Never seen the copper wire trick.
Me either 😆. I’d seen similar and thought I’d try it
I strongly lean towards the Rotkee. That being said, I do own all the "nice" accessories from Pico however I have purchased two 2204's to use for the younger ones to learn . Mainly for understanding how and when to use an attenuator and get to grips with using a scope. For this I was looking at the Rotkee accessories. Good value for money.
Awesome way to learn! Once you master something basic like the 2204, you can appreciate the specs of a high end scope. I’m loving the Rotkee probes 👍
The best I've used is pickup coils out of distributors amazing waveforms, even Toyota coils
Excellent presentation ! Super helpful !! Thanks !!!
My vote goes to pico
Others are not really bad either although after personally testing several units I noticed there is always something to adjust while pico is consistent. Now I keep the other units for cylinder reference duties.
Someone else noticed the consistency; I wonder what they do different. I think as long as you use the same tool while testing, the comparison will stand out. I have an older Pico clamp which I did t compare here, would have been good in hindsight 😆
Would the wire coil not be a bit risky for your scope as it’s not grounded in the event of a lead arcing out and sending all that energy straight to the scope. Just a thought. Great comparison of probes here.
Possibly. Not sure how much a risk it is without the scope being part of the voltage differential (ie if it’s not connected to chassis ground, current shouldn’t flow through it). I was going to try actually, see what happens! Thanks
Ahh man D. You beat me to the ignition shootout.lol.you even made your own probe 😆
You still go and do the video though dude. It all counts 👊
The Hantek et al are capacitive pickups and measure the voltage on the line, the coil is an inductive pickup and measuring the current that flows in the line. I've got no experience with spark ignition, but maybe you could use both the further analyze the system.
Excellent video brother as always, my Rotkee order should be here soon got held up but it’s moving now spent $1500 lol
Wow! Did you buy the whole catalogue? 😆
@@MechanicMindset haha yup pretty much I figured it would be easier to sell it here then have it shipped all the time
Darren thanks for sharing. If I get a chance this weekend I have the ROTKEE the Hantec and Micsig and AES wave U scope. Should be interesting. Nice shop you have there. Very nice job. Darren hope all is well 😊
Cool, let us know how you get on! Hope to see you live tonight if you can make it 👍
This was standard training back in the day , firing lines are the same weather created by a set of points or an ECU , Raster and firing lines ask any Crypton of Sun machine man , however your doing a good job teaching old school, perhaps you should try AFR and how that applies to carburettor settings?
Cheers Tim! Will see what we can do with AFR 👍
hello, thank you very much for the demonstration
Cheers Stephane
there is no extention cable link..
have a nice day.
Sorry, I can’t find any! Hantek to make them though. Thanks
I think the Darren mechanic mindset coil is the one for this hobbiest. I believe you'd get a much better waveform out of it if you used only 1 wrap. I think the additional wraps are picking up more noise like an antenna. Something I wish I could go outside and try, but all my cars are cop, and I don't have the extenders.
Nice hypothesis! I was wondering whether more or less windings would be best. The clamp definitely picks up a lot. I think I’d need something to trigger to prove out the interference vs measured coil 👍
I like to see them under loaded snap throttle. I like the hantek for the price.
Hantek is great value and nice quality. I think as long as you have 2 of the same probes to compare, you’ll get the results you want.
Mix and match probes, you could get misleading tests results 👍
Do you need to attach an attenuator to the scope when using these probes?
Great question, I believe they have one built in. For the coil of wire best use one to be safe
Using the preset channel for configuration for the first two and a custom one for the Rotkee skewed the comparison test results. You should have revisited the first two and using custom settings it might have been possible to get a better trace. The only one which showed the combustion adequately was the Rotkee.
Another Awesome video, Darren, Thank you for all that you do, i personally prefer 'Home made things' we need to campaign for your promotion in a 'BOND MOVIE' as ' Q' (fittingly) with all these innovative Hack's , perhaps you'll get Global recognition with it's Fame and Fortune too, i can just picture you with Cubbi Broccoli (not the fat version of a Vegetable) but the producer of many Bond Films, and you continuously produce ever more Gadgets and design innovations, now that would be electrifying !! Lol 🙂
🤣🤣🤣 That would be awesome. Bond could go round fixing P0300 fault codes
@@MechanicMindset 🙂
An idea for a future video - Multispark Secondary Ignition Diagnosis
Like wasted spark?
Not wasted spark. Many modern engines have multiple injection phases and also now multi spark. Just as an example the Mercedes M256 inline six cylinder is multi spark unless you unplug the rail pressure sensor. I often find the pattern very difficult to interpret and I haven't found any information online on how to analyse this type of ignition
@@ashleyg3357 Ah ok yes, think the older straight 6 BMWs used to use it too. If I see it, I’ll show it 👍
@@MechanicMindset awesome, thanks!
do you need to do that with those plug extension cables? that seems like a complicated setup. and then the extension cables go attached to the spark plugs? could you explain that part better. I know you are measuring for ignition voltage signal how do you get those cables? finally, does the scanner provides that signal? I guess not ahh?
Have the rotkee probe did not get such a clean waveform what was the settings for that probe
I just use the normal 1x setting and adjusted the voltage to get the waveform. What scope are you using?
@@MechanicMindset hs402 and the pico 2004
@@ford03369 HS402 looks interesting. What do you know about the wifi versions?
@@MechanicMindset i have hs402 wired. The wifi one from all i seen is pretty awesome
Great vid. If you don't fck around with it you will never learn its full potential. If you bared the other end of your wire and you had a reverse polarity if you put the clip on the other end it should turn it positive, what do you reckon. Love your work.
Great idea, I’ll give it a go 👍 Cheers
I'm using the hantek HT-25 with my 2204a. I'm wondering what probe I should use on Pico 6?
I think the probe is x1000. You can copy the probe from Pico 6 Autmotive and load it in Pico 6 normal 😁
Thanks I'll try that.
In my opinion mechanic mindset special tool is best one😜😜👍👍❤️
😆👍Thought I’d give it a go, I saw similar tests on different components. Amazing what these things can pick up!
Hello Darren I just got the Hantek but i still haven't used yet. I have one question do I need to "tell" my pico scope 2k series that I have antenuetor or I can just connect it as it is and read the wave form?
No need to tell but you shown voltage on screen will be 1/10 of actual at probe voltage
@@tullgutten thanks a lot
Hi Darren, great video. I would be interested on a review of the rotkee oscilloscope, maybe a comparison.
Thanks! Hopefully I will receive one soon. I will be sharing the Ditex scope very soon 👍
Being a DIY'er I'm going for the Hantek. I'm thinking the Pico probe has a little cleaner trace but the Hantek has a usable trace even for beginners. Thank you!!!!!
@@dalebabbitt6185 It does for sure! Not much in it to be fair!
Just getting into may be getting A scope.
On checking 2ndry kvolts will higher kv give a better ignition
@@kevstrawmonochromeracing999 Not necessarily. It could indicate a problem
Nice video, thanks. Why not clamp them all on the same cable for an even better comparisson
I was going to show all live on the same screen but the time base wasn’t suitable, so just did it like this. Makes for a better thumbnail picture 😅. But yeah, possible some minor discrepancies between cylinders, this gives the broad idea 👍
@@MechanicMindset Could have put them all at the same cylinder, at the same time.
@@ulfg1409 I’ll follow up 👍
good mind .... last experience frome you .
do you have some online courses ?
We do! Check out MechanicMindset.com
have you ever moved the clamp on different places to see if you can get a real good waveform. i forgot to try last time i had
sparkplug wires. my autel secoundary ignition clamp seems to work like your pico and hantek probable made by same co. i know with the 2in. copper sq. and the clamp i can get a nice waveform COP but, you must find the sweet spot.
I haven't, I tried to get them all in the middle of the extentions, but I'll have a play around as you suggest. Cheers!
Would an attenuator be required using Pico 2204?
For the coil of wire I’d say yes. But it’s not needed for the others. I think it’s already built in
Perhaps you may get away with not using one, but there's no downside to using it and it reduces the risk of damaging the scope. Might as well put it on there, better safe than sorry. Especially as using a 2204 implies your budget may be limited, wouldn't want to risk damaging it.
@@MechanicMindset I mentioned a DIY probe in a separate post, using tin foil around the wire and a capacitor connected to ground. This gives you a capacitive voltage divider, about 1pF capacitance between the ignition wire and tin wrap, and 1000 times larger capacitance between the wrap and ground thanks to the added capacitor. This makes a ~1000:1 voltage divider, different sizes can be used for other attenuations. Those voltages may sitt be a bit high for a 2204, so attenuating isn't a bad idea.
You never want to see the overvoltage warning when using the scope at its highest voltage range, you know it's more than the scope can show but you have no idea how much more. Could easily be enough to damage it.
@@ulfg1409 For sure 👍. Thanks for sharing!
I have all 4 options already and think that the Rotkee looks best
It’s a cool little tool; different!
I think the is a reason why they all have a clamp to put on chassi ground.. This amount of voltage will create a spike inside the test leads like any coil ..so without that ground cable you will burn your scope
Yeah I need to check where the ground connects, the voltage is quite low because I think there is an attenuator, but if there is a fault and the spark leaks, it should protect.
I cut my teeth using BIG, SUN Engine Analyzers in the 1980's; the scope patterns were AWESOME. Waveforms were stable, predictable, repeatable & analog. When SUN introduced the INTERROGATOR, and subsequent models with DIGITAL scope, the waveforms got choppy and went to hell. In 2024, the one thing that hasn't seen improvement from legacy SUN ewuipment is the IGNITION SECONDARY WAVEFORM 😢.
I suppose the analogue waveform will be hard to beat there. My Granddad had one in his van, mobile home tuning! The 12 bit scopes are pretty good though. The 8 bit can’t cut it really.
Being a poor just starting , I'll go for the hantek..
Got a follow up video coming on this, you will t be disappointed with your Hantek purchase! 👌
As expected the pico one looks best.
But now i wonder.
Can we use the pico scope to check for RF signal from key fob remotes?
And which way is best..
If you get a clean signal, remember to hide the registration of the vehicle so noone can find it and open it from watching (the soon to come video?)😜
I suppose you would need a high frequency antenna to catch that and the scope to match.
I think the automotive picoscopes usually have a 20MHz bandwidth. What frequency do the key fobs use?
@@ulfg1409 315Mhz US, 433Mhz Europe/Asia
@@MechanicMindset Well, then that's far out of reach of any automotive scopes I've seen the specs for.
@@MechanicMindset sure enough my 22 year old Audi A4 B5.5 uses 433.92 Mhz.
Didn't concider it was that high...
Might be possible to get something with an scope with lower bandwidth but will probably be garbage signal but maybe enugh to tell if it is sending something at all.
I have a 2 usd spy cam finder that screams when i use my key fob close to it and i doubt it uses any high bandwidth chip but just looking for some oscillation signal
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Thanks for sharing it 👍
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