That is a great point about the stiff rope. Especially as they age some ropes like good old caving rope (for instance) won't hold a clove hitch. We found some time ago that the rope was way to stiff to cinch down at all. Good stuff Rich.
I subscribed as soon as you mentioned bitch slapping. It was then that I knew you knew what you were talk about and you’re a practical person to learn from. 😂😂😂😂😂❤️🧗♂️🙏🏽
First, your videos are just outstanding. Thank you. Second, what about blocking with a stone/stein knot on a biner spine instead of a clove hitch? I clip the 2 outside strands, not the single inside, so it's impossible to self-untie. I know, I know - the clove hitch has been serving technical humanity with a strong record since forever... if it ain't broke don't fix it, cause it works great as long as... nobody screws it up. I find the stone harder to screw up, far less slip-prone, easy to tie and untie (at least as easy as a simple clove), and it works with stiff rope.
Thank you for your compliment, Shane. And thank you for your thoughtful question. I do understand what you are describing. Another video is in the works about the stone knot. What you are describing is kind of a cross between a stone knot and a marlin spike hitch. Seems like it should work, but I haven't tested it, so can't recommend one way or the other. Maybe something I should put on my pull-test rig.
I just played with variations for a bit, realized it's probably not a good idea. Reliable in one direction but not the other.With the wrong working end under enough tension and/or small enough rope, and an unsecured/untensioned free end, it inverts and becomes a useless overhand. Oh well. Guess it's the constrictor for me.
Trial and error is a great way to learn. As long as our trials and our errors occur in a safe, controlled environment where there are no dire consequences. Kudos for coming up with the idea. And double kudos for testing it out.
Hi Rich, I'm a little confused. Why is the configuration @ 7:30 a bad one? If, for some reason, your fig. 8 makes its way through the rapide, couldn't closing the loop with the biner as pictured be a life saver? I can understand why it may not be essential to use a backup if you've set up the knot correctly, but I'm not clear why you consider this poor technique (other than the biner possibly getting stuck). What surprises me is that see so many climbing videos recommending this approach, esp. for a tag line setup. Thanks!
The configuration you are asking about appeared in a Petzl catalog years ago and I will admit to using it myself. People tend to regurgitate what they see so I’m not surprised if you are seeing it in other places. Since you used the term “tag line” I can guess where at least one of those places was. LOL If you understand the idea behind blocks (and it ain’t complicated) you know the knot needs to be big enough and the rappel ring small enough that it CANNOT FAIL. I am amused when people ask things like, “Yeah, but what if the ring is too big?” Uh, change the ring. “Yeah, but what if I didn’t bring an extra ring?” Uh, switch to a carabiner block or another form of rigging. It ain’t complicated. Now the direct answer to your question ... Having used knot blocks and carabiner blocks for three decades, I have never seen one fail by the knot getting pulled through the ring - when the ring is of appropriate size. It’s more common for people to rappel on the wrong side of the block, in which case this closed configuration is of no value. So if you are concerned, instead of clipping the carabiner back to the rappel strand, clip it into the anchor so you protect yourself agains the imagined problem and the more common problem. Where the clipped rope becomes a real problem is upon retrieval. In a waterfall the rig tends to spin like a propellor and twist the rope so it can’t be retrieved. In other cases the cross-bar in the capital letter A that you create is also prone to snagging on things. Hope this helps.
The configuration you are asking about appeared in a Petzl catalog years ago and I will admit to using it myself. People tend to regurgitate what they see so I’m not surprised if you are seeing it in other places. Since you used the term “tag line” I can guess where at least one of those places was. LOL If you understand the idea behind blocks (and it ain’t complicated) you know the knot needs to be big enough and the rappel ring small enough that it CANNOT FAIL. I am amused when people ask things like, “Yeah, but what if the ring is too big?” Uh, change the ring. “Yeah, but what if I didn’t bring an extra ring?” Uh, switch to a carabiner block or another form of rigging. It ain’t complicated. Now the direct answer to your question ... Having used knot blocks and carabiner blocks for three decades, I have never seen one fail by the knot getting pulled through the ring - when the ring is of appropriate size. It’s more common for people to rappel on the wrong side of the block, in which case this closed configuration is of no value. So if you are concerned, instead of clipping the carabiner back to the rappel strand, clip it into the anchor so you protect yourself agains the imagined problem and the more common problem. Where the clipped rope becomes a real problem is upon retrieval. In a waterfall the rig tends to spin like a propellor and twist the rope so it can’t be retrieved. In other cases the cross-bar in the capital letter A that you create is also prone to snagging on things. Hope this helps.
@@CanyonsCrags Thanks. As a relative newbie it's interesting to hear the different points of view. Here are two recent videos I've seen which may tell you if your guess was correct. :) One from an AMGA certified instructor and the other from Brette Harrington: ua-cam.com/video/dlKPQ_0f6aI/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/90F5-4WO1No/v-deo.html
I would prefer to use a buntline hitch to avoid this --> www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/poor-rappel-setup-led-to-asu-students-fatal-fall-7468789 they tied a sloppy clove hitch and she died from it. But why hitch at all, when you can figure 8?
Thank you for your post, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Proper use of a static block involves sending the tail of the rope down and keeping the reserve rope on top. The accident you referenced involved a block rigged near the tail of the rope.
WTF is the point, just knot block and clip biner on rap line. If worried about which side, just clip the 8 directly to the master point. What is the point of this, seems excessively dangerous and totally pointless when better options exist. OK, so, only a warm fuzzy? No, safety. And worrying about a knot being stuck on the way down, maybe, but a sideways biner seems equally likely to get caught on something. No thank you.
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion. But I am a bit confused about the points you are attempting to make. You mention using a knot block and clipping the loop to the rappel rope with a carabiner. I address this in the video. It DOES NOT add any safety to the system - unless you are concerned that your block might slip through the rappel ring. It DOES create a much greater risk of getting the rope stuck. There is a downside with no upside, so it makes no sense. Beyond that ... Many of the points that I make in the video are specifically directed at issues created by the way some people are rigging blocks. Please clarify what you mean by “better options exist” because the one example you provided is absolutely not a better option.
Spit out my beer @2:24
Such a high quality video. I'm surprised more people haven't given a thumbs up.
Very cool instruction. Love step 1 of Rich's 2 step process if someone dumps the unsecured end over the side. Lol.
Thank you for your kind words. Happy to know you enjoyed the video.
“Replace the damn things.”! Hahahaha. I love it!
That is a great point about the stiff rope. Especially as they age some ropes like good old caving rope (for instance) won't hold a clove hitch. We found some time ago that the rope was way to stiff to cinch down at all. Good stuff Rich.
I subscribed as soon as you mentioned bitch slapping. It was then that I knew you knew what you were talk about and you’re a practical person to learn from. 😂😂😂😂😂❤️🧗♂️🙏🏽
You are very perceptive. 😁
@@CanyonsCrags I’m also “slightly above average intelligence “:😂😂😂😂😂😂😂good stuff. Love your videos
😎
Gotta smirk at your understatement early on in the clip that rappelling on the wrong side of a static block "could be dangerous."
Might just be my thick accent, Augie, but I said "would be", not "could be". :-)
No matter how much experience, all it takes is one mistake! Nice video btw. Cheers from Australia just subbed.nice work 🙂👍👍👍
First, your videos are just outstanding. Thank you. Second, what about blocking with a stone/stein knot on a biner spine instead of a clove hitch? I clip the 2 outside strands, not the single inside, so it's impossible to self-untie.
I know, I know - the clove hitch has been serving technical humanity with a strong record since forever... if it ain't broke don't fix it, cause it works great as long as... nobody screws it up.
I find the stone harder to screw up, far less slip-prone, easy to tie and untie (at least as easy as a simple clove), and it works with stiff rope.
Thank you for your compliment, Shane. And thank you for your thoughtful question. I do understand what you are describing. Another video is in the works about the stone knot. What you are describing is kind of a cross between a stone knot and a marlin spike hitch. Seems like it should work, but I haven't tested it, so can't recommend one way or the other. Maybe something I should put on my pull-test rig.
I just played with variations for a bit, realized it's probably not a good idea. Reliable in one direction but not the other.With the wrong working end under enough tension and/or small enough rope, and an unsecured/untensioned free end, it inverts and becomes a useless overhand. Oh well. Guess it's the constrictor for me.
Trial and error is a great way to learn. As long as our trials and our errors occur in a safe, controlled environment where there are no dire consequences. Kudos for coming up with the idea. And double kudos for testing it out.
have you done the releasable block vid yet? Cant wait
2:24: LMAO. Good one.
Effective system, isn't it? ;-) Thank you for checking out my videos.
Funny I just found this, and came up with a triple clove for a stiff rope situation on the fly
Hi Rich, I'm a little confused. Why is the configuration @ 7:30 a bad one? If, for some reason, your fig. 8 makes its way through the rapide, couldn't closing the loop with the biner as pictured be a life saver? I can understand why it may not be essential to use a backup if you've set up the knot correctly, but I'm not clear why you consider this poor technique (other than the biner possibly getting stuck). What surprises me is that see so many climbing videos recommending this approach, esp. for a tag line setup. Thanks!
The configuration you are asking about appeared in a Petzl catalog years ago and I will admit to using it myself. People tend to regurgitate what they see so I’m not surprised if you are seeing it in other places. Since you used the term “tag line” I can guess where at least one of those places was. LOL
If you understand the idea behind blocks (and it ain’t complicated) you know the knot needs to be big enough and the rappel ring small enough that it CANNOT FAIL. I am amused when people ask things like, “Yeah, but what if the ring is too big?” Uh, change the ring. “Yeah, but what if I didn’t bring an extra ring?” Uh, switch to a carabiner block or another form of rigging. It ain’t complicated.
Now the direct answer to your question ... Having used knot blocks and carabiner blocks for three decades, I have never seen one fail by the knot getting pulled through the ring - when the ring is of appropriate size. It’s more common for people to rappel on the wrong side of the block, in which case this closed configuration is of no value. So if you are concerned, instead of clipping the carabiner back to the rappel strand, clip it into the anchor so you protect yourself agains the imagined problem and the more common problem.
Where the clipped rope becomes a real problem is upon retrieval. In a waterfall the rig tends to spin like a propellor and twist the rope so it can’t be retrieved. In other cases the cross-bar in the capital letter A that you create is also prone to snagging on things.
Hope this helps.
The configuration you are asking about appeared in a Petzl catalog years ago and I will admit to using it myself. People tend to regurgitate what they see so I’m not surprised if you are seeing it in other places. Since you used the term “tag line” I can guess where at least one of those places was. LOL
If you understand the idea behind blocks (and it ain’t complicated) you know the knot needs to be big enough and the rappel ring small enough that it CANNOT FAIL. I am amused when people ask things like, “Yeah, but what if the ring is too big?” Uh, change the ring. “Yeah, but what if I didn’t bring an extra ring?” Uh, switch to a carabiner block or another form of rigging. It ain’t complicated.
Now the direct answer to your question ... Having used knot blocks and carabiner blocks for three decades, I have never seen one fail by the knot getting pulled through the ring - when the ring is of appropriate size. It’s more common for people to rappel on the wrong side of the block, in which case this closed configuration is of no value. So if you are concerned, instead of clipping the carabiner back to the rappel strand, clip it into the anchor so you protect yourself agains the imagined problem and the more common problem.
Where the clipped rope becomes a real problem is upon retrieval. In a waterfall the rig tends to spin like a propellor and twist the rope so it can’t be retrieved. In other cases the cross-bar in the capital letter A that you create is also prone to snagging on things.
Hope this helps.
@@CanyonsCrags Thanks. As a relative newbie it's interesting to hear the different points of view.
Here are two recent videos I've seen which may tell you if your guess was correct. :) One from an AMGA certified instructor and the other from Brette Harrington:
ua-cam.com/video/dlKPQ_0f6aI/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/90F5-4WO1No/v-deo.html
Did the "next video" on using the contingency block ever come out? If so, anyone have a link?
No dude. Not in the last 4 years.
I would prefer to use a buntline hitch to avoid this --> www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/poor-rappel-setup-led-to-asu-students-fatal-fall-7468789
they tied a sloppy clove hitch and she died from it. But why hitch at all, when you can figure 8?
Thank you for your post, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Proper use of a static block involves sending the tail of the rope down and keeping the reserve rope on top. The accident you referenced involved a block rigged near the tail of the rope.
Bitch slapping LOL!!!!
WTF is the point, just knot block and clip biner on rap line. If worried about which side, just clip the 8 directly to the master point. What is the point of this, seems excessively dangerous and totally pointless when better options exist. OK, so, only a warm fuzzy? No, safety. And worrying about a knot being stuck on the way down, maybe, but a sideways biner seems equally likely to get caught on something. No thank you.
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion. But I am a bit confused about the points you are attempting to make. You mention using a knot block and clipping the loop to the rappel rope with a carabiner. I address this in the video. It DOES NOT add any safety to the system - unless you are concerned that your block might slip through the rappel ring. It DOES create a much greater risk of getting the rope stuck. There is a downside with no upside, so it makes no sense. Beyond that ... Many of the points that I make in the video are specifically directed at issues created by the way some people are rigging blocks. Please clarify what you mean by “better options exist” because the one example you provided is absolutely not a better option.