I’m a retired NFL OL. I have zero intention of ever climbing but your passion for super safe enough and showing how gear works makes me love the channel. Been watching 3 or so years now
@@johnnycigar3240 hahah my fingers are so destroyed from ball😂 I went the opposite route and picked up scuba diving. However I have such a tremendous amount of praise / respect to climbers
I do very little climbing, but am a structural engineer. I notice the multiple looped belay loops are laid up in a spiral configuration. The outer circle will experience more elongation than the inner circle. We can see this in your break tests, where the stitching first rips on the outer section. There is a unzippering mechanism happening to the stitching. This leads to a progressive increase in the tearing stress on the remaining stitching. In contrast, the 'infinite' belay loop has the stress equally shared through the entire circumference and the cross section. I believe that is why the 'infinite' belay loop are yielding double the breaking force compared to the 'spiral' belay loop.
As an engineer that makes a lot of sense. Doubling tripling it up doesn't make it stronger, it removes sensitivity to local wear as the forces can move around the ring
We need to make him a "full rate" fall simulator to see the shock absorption differences in these constructions. There is a whole other world of results waiting for him/us. He's going to need a lot more samples too.
I was on a climbing date with a Skinner (family member of Todd's) a number of years after Todd died. The harness I was wearing was so old and tattered I had tied my own belay loop to supplement the existing one. As I was tying in the gal just started shouting my name and looing down at the harness. It actually took me a moment to figure out what she was trying to communicate. All of a sudden being proud dirtbag didn't feel so proud, I went and got a new harness.
I don't even climb rocks, I bought a harness to work on sailboat rigging because I dislike the bosun's chair. Yet I've spent the last week watching these videos every night just out of curiosity. Good stuff man.
This is awesome, because climbing wouldn't be what it is today without sailing. When it comes to ropework, we have taken soooo much inspiration from sailing.
Some people do both, especially when you've got to work aloft for a long time. Harness (on the inside) for safety, chair for comfort. It can be a little tricky to tie on, but if you're going up on 2 halyards anyway, you can just tie in to the harness and clip the shackle on the chair.
Try rock climbing at least once. If you're a sailor, I bet you already have strong grip and forearms. Climbing is mostly grip strength and balance, and it's also addictive
Hey I really want more experience boating and I fantasize about a life roving the coasts....got worse balance than a blind 3 legged beagle 😅 tac into the wind for me!
Presumably the reason belay loops are only required to be 15kn while everything else is over 20kn is that any piece of gear (other than the belay loop) could be clipped to a bolt or gear placement when catching a lead fall, which puts twice as much force on that component as the belay loop
I thought it was because people will clip/haul things that are not people so they need the other gear to be ready for dead weight falls. Nothing but people should be attached to the belay loop, so it just needs to be stronger than the human.
Love your channel. My background is soft shackles and mast climbing (sailboat). As you might know, I invented or co-invented the soft shackles you use. A lot of this work was chronicled on a Sailing Anarchy forum where a person with screen name Estar had a setup to break stuff similar to yours. One of the things he found, and the reason for my comment has to do with the different kinds of stitching I saw in this video. What we found was that stitching that runs parallel to the webbing, like a fairly popular X-Box stitch, fails because the device under test stretches before it breaks and that stretching breaks the stitching. I could see that happening on some of your tests. That is the advantage of having a series of bar tacks. The thread is not stretched as the material is pulled. I use my Sailrite zig-zag machine to put home made bar tacks in webbing. Estar tested that and it was super good enough. BTW, I am wondering if there is a harness that is a comfortable as a Bosuns chair for climbing a mast.
Try an Industrial Harness (something like the Petzl AVAO SIT FAST). Wider leg loops that really support your legs, also there is a seat that you can clip to your harness, makes it super comfortable. I work as an Industrial Climber and have done some yacht mast work.
Maybe a good test would be running a belay loop on the machine that simulates wear (like years of rappelling and friction) and then testing it? A clean cut might be quite different from cyclical loading and friction when you're break testing. Just a thought!
Seems like the stitching was the weak point on the more 'normal' looking loops. If the abrasion was right at the seam I bet it could break low without looking suspiciously worn.
I was thinking the same: put a wheel over a rock and drag a belay loop on the rock for 10.000 turns (or 100,000) so it wears evenly on the whole surface. Then break test it.
One of My Absolute Favorite Channels to Watch! Your such An ASSET to Your Climbing Community! Although I'm a 71 year old Active Arborist I Truly Love the Passion You Have for Your Sport!
I think there are a lot of us 'Although I'm a...." here. I'm a sailor. Absolutely amazing channel. For the climbing gear, but also for anything from ropes, hardware, methods, dangers; and especially for the thinking. After all what's the most dangerous piece of 'kit' anyone can bring to anything? Assumptions, false assumptions, fallacious arguments. ("It's always worked before....") And "Someone on the internet said...." (Which I confess applies to me here.)
Plastics in general are resistant to acids because they are hydrophobic (don't absorb water). This is a vast generalization but for the plastics you are testing and the acids climbing gear might come in contact with in a house or car it is true enough. I would be much more worried about plastics coming in contact with common solvents (gasoline, mineral spirits, motor oil, etc.). Plastics in general are not resistant to these chemicals as these chemicals tend to be absorbed into or actually dissolve plastic. I can imagine that there is a solvent that would badly damage the belay loop but leave no obvious outward visual queue of that damage. Another possibility is bleach (laundry or pool chemicals), as the oxidizing effect would be similar to sun damage (fibers become brittle). Keep up the good work.
Good point. Back in the the day I can recall some gear mfrs having a separate range of gear for cavers which used an acid resistant material - since cavers in that era used lead-acid battery powered lamps. Doing a quick Google those product lines no longer around. Presume these days less use of lead-acid lamps. Some industrial abseil kit suppliers still mentioning acid resistance.
My wife once put a cotton ball with nail polish remover in a plastic bowl, which dissolved a small defect into the bowl where it was sitting. I'd be curious to see a test similar to this.
I have been watching for a long time and love a good Soft Shackle. you are a true Asset to the community and you dive deeper into the rabbit Holes than anyone really should. Butt our community still has so much to learn, so I Plug your channel to all of my friends.
Acids are only corrosive and bases are only caustic when they are wet. (Did you ever try to slip on handles bicycle handle bars? Impossible. Then you spray the metal handle with Windex or ammonia (a base) and the handle slides right on. But when the ammonia dries (faster than you'd think) it's permanent. And the tightness keeps out water which would reactivate the ammonia. But working water or ammonia back in there would be the way to remove it later. Ammonia is a Base who's properties are tastes bitter, is slippery and burns - like soap. Soaps also contain a lot of fat which is why a dry bar of it is still slippery. And some substances are completely or highly resistant to acids and bases. Like glass and some plastics. Terrific episode , and respect to Todd Skinner.
Since cutting through the webbing does not weaken it enough, what if the rubbing over the years abraded the bar-tack stitching on one side (since that seems to be the breaking point on most of these). If that is true, it would make the "infinite" loops much safer from normal wear and tear.
I have used the Misty Mountain Cadillac since 2000. Their shop is just an hour from my house and used it all over Utah and Arizona as well. I hope you love it as much as I do. So good.
If I had any interest in actually climbing myself, I would buy from your store. I am living vicariously through you. All I have to offer is a thumb's up.
Sulfuric acid works very differently from formic acid. If you try sulphuric, don’t do it in workshop as the fumes can weaken stuff in the area, do it outside
Todd Skinner died because his harness was old and had a very worn belay loop. His partner noticed this while they were rappelling g and pointed it out and Todd replied that he had a new one on order. If he he headed his partners warning his death could have been prevented in several easy ways: clip his belay device biner directly into hos tie in points. Thread a 4ft sling through his tie-in points , equalize and tie and overhand knot and clip the belay device biner to this extension point, Make a backup belay loop with a piece of cord, etc. The accident was caused by human error, not because belay loops are dangerous. In real world scenarios you will never find a scenario where you come close to 16kN of force on a belay loop.
@@michaelbrowder1759 until it's not. The cost/consequence ratio is so low, that calling out even the slightest wear and replacing should not be a big deal, even though it's "super good enough".
@@michaelbrowder1759 The testing is actually pretty clear. We didn't get to see a highly worn belay loop with a personal anchor girth hit hed to it, but you saw what the girth hitch did to a reasonable belay loop. This is no different than calculating rope strength across pulleys based on pull angle, except that we're also destroying the opposite axis of the line at the same time (squeezing with the girth hitch across the cord). I can't think of a worse way to rig anything to a soft point. In the military, we're specifically taught not to do this (and we're the "expendable" ones!).
I was taught from day one (decades ago), never to attach anything directly to, and only to the "belay loop". Never did, and never will. It's mostly there to keep your harness together.
I was thinking the same thing. We saw that cutting thru the side is still strong enough but what happens if the "bar code" stitches on the inside of the loop get worn thru?
I laughed when you suggested double looping the soft shackle. Two weeks ago I made a longer than normal soft shackle out of 1.3mm Marlow D12 SK99 and got about seven wraps of it before looping the button knot. I'm determined that my ID card holder will not break off the pass retractor ever again.
One alternative to a soft shackle that gets rid of the knot is to splice an endless loop of Dyneema. Tools needed are a D-Splicer, a way to cut the dyneema length you want, a few pins, a rope-safe marker to mark locations on the rope, and a needle & thread for final stitching & whipping to make it look nice. You can also do a sort of mini-spanset, splicing a multi-wrap loop of thin Dyneema inside an outer sheath (preferably of Dacron for max UV & wear resistance, but Nylon comes close and is good enough. Jan-Willem Polman has instructions for this on pgs 140-145 of his book "Splicing Modern Ropes". No bulge, plenty strong.
@@mmmmkkk Factory-made soft shackles still have the knot's bulk to deal with. An endless loop can be used where that's not viable. They're common in sailing.
I literally had this same thought. He did a video a year or two ago where he worked with a sailor and made this exact thing. I'm actually very curious about why that wasn't brought up in this video...
I just checked out your shop for the first time, and it's incredible!! You have literally everything and so much info on everything and the layout is fantastic. It's like the shop every climber dreamed it could be like. Well done Ryan!
I think cutting 3/4 through us pretty different to being heavily abraded, as every fibre might at some point be at the surface of the sling/belay loop. Maybe cutting/sanding through the surface 0.25mm all the way around might show that better.
you are right. Someone here in the uk did tests on various slings. With dyneema they could be cut 75% through and still perform well but when abraded with a matchbox across the entire width they failed easily.
Thanks for the great video. I've primarily been a steep sport climber for almost 30 years and all of the harnesses I've retired were from wear to the leg loop tie in point of the harness. Years ago Arc'teryx made a harness that you could buy the leg loops separately from the waist belt so I was able to replace the leg loops when the tie in point wore out and the waist tie in point wore out before the second set of leg loops did. In most climbing applications, if the webbing is usually out of the sun and doesn't get contaminated, it seems that the belay loop shouldn't be the part of the harness weakening first.
I am not a climber I used to do highrise window cleaning and I also painted water towers. It has been about 15 years since the last time. I never had any accidents or failures of equipment or safety gear. I am haunted by one of the times my failure to use safety gear left me in a precarious situation. I was obviously able to stay calm enough to get myself out of the situation. As we know being able to trust in the gear is what gives the convenience to do these things either for occupation or pleasure. Gear fear is most certainly a real phenomenon and could be debilitating. I am still intrigued about this subject and thank you for creating this content.
It's really sad that all the great things that Todd Skinner accomplished in climbing and what an awesome dude he was are forgotten, and his legacy is reduced to "soft on soft."
I would rather splice a continuous loop from dyneema than use a soft shackle for an extra loop. If bury makes it too long, double it up inside a piece of webbing buried in itself to keep it clean. Endless loop will not open. Never done one of belay loop size though, I hope there is not something impractical I'm missing. Of course, if you're not splicing it yourself but getting a commercial ready made one, that is a different story. Then you need a way to open one to connect it.
I'm really glad you tested the Sendero. I have been climbing on one for a few months and the belay loop has always weirded me out. It's just so different from any other harness I've used.
Might be one of my favorite videos. A guide I have been with a number of times personally and also taken my instructor course with was the one that suggested I girth hitch both waist and leg instead of belay. His reasoning was to make the radius bigger esp because of the skinny sling I was using. I’ve since moved to an offset basket hitch with an overhand to make my tether and rappel extension most of the time I need one, and based on a video you did a while back, I use a nylon sling for it instead of my dyneema ones.
@@Ghostman719 it wasn’t something I learned in a video unfortunately. I was out with a climbing guide and that was how he suggested I rig a tether and rappel extension out of one double length sling given my rack for the day.
I tie a double length sling using a bowline on a bight through the waist and leg loops making what I've always considered a kinda 2nd-ish belay loop and personal anchor/rap extension. AlpineSavvy has a writeup about doing a bowline on a bight to the belay loop, not like I do through the waist+leg loops (mimicking the belay loop) and I would love to hear from the community if what I'm doing is dumb or super good enough. And I'm using nylon slings to make it a little stretchy.
So adding the acid is like cutting the belay loop partly. It weakens it but it’s still amazingly strong. I was surprised. Definitely another very helpful video!
I like how you point out the breaking strength of the human body. The Air Force has published papers on this for ejection seats and such, generally for fully harnessed subjects (i.e. best case).
I like the climbing technology and grivel multi chain since it can girth hitch without pinching the tie in points together. It makes a little fixed loop
I would love to work with all the buckles off of those destroyed harnesses, maybe we could do a trade, I make a lot of interesting outdoor products and bags … lemme know
I just love the amount of new merchandise you break for everyone's information. I think out of all the videos that I'm subbed to, it's always these I tend to watch to completion. I also have been rocking the same harness since 2016... I should probably check out your store.
While using a soft shackle for a belay loop seems super good enough, if you dont know how to tie them they can be super sketchy. Splicing a loop is at least marginally easier than tying a button knot, and you can keep that loop inside a chafe cover like whats seen in the dyneema sailing loop video
I effectively make a second belay loop by attaching my personal anchor to my harness with a bowline on the hard points parallel to the belay loop instead of girth hitching. The bowline ring becomes the second loop, keeps the original free, all while having a personal anchor too
@@dubhunter nope, it is exactly like this bowline master point: ua-cam.com/video/3N930_jt5HY/v-deo.html&ab_channel=HowToRockandAlpineClimb bowlines work well ring loaded
When I was taught repelling, we used climbing rope to make the harness. Years later I learned radio tower climbers like to get new factory harness's every year. The sticking weakens from UV, oils body and otherwise, storage conditions and failures aren't good. I figure the sticking adds a weakness altering original weaves.
The narrow girth hitched sling cutting the belay loop was insightful. Maybe thin strong webbing is better used just against metal, and not against other webbing.
Great video! One thing that is pretty interesting about the strength of a belay loop is the tack pattern and how many times the needle goes through the webbing.
Thanks for breaking what seemed like a thousand bucks worth of harnesses for science (and fun ). Definitely useful and good to know my belay loop is super good enough.
You wouldn’t ever catch me climbing a huge wall, or even in a rock climbing gym but I still love these videos. I greatly appreciate the time and all the gear you destroy on your own dime. I’m the guy that would use all three of those stacking loops knowing full well the harness would break before they do.
Ha, that's what I said, and now I'm collecting climbing gear and training at a gym. It is more satisfying and less difficult than many think. That said, I have a new respect for climbers!
I would love to see you slice into both sides of the belay loop instead of just one. Take around 15% on either side enough to cut through that sewing on either side that goes around the loop. This would better simulate wear of both sides instead of a cut on just one side. Great video as always Ryan!
this channel legit rules!! subscribed.. i feel like im learning something 😅.. going to airborne school in the army they told us NOTHING.. Basically just "Jump NOW! Trust your equipment!!"
That's all you needed to know, Airborne. That parachute is a troop delivery system with a maintenance department built-in, and the only goal is to get 70% of the jumpers to the ground. Nothing you can do while you're in air anyway.
If I remember right, Todd had put duct tape or climbers finger tape on the harness in and around the belay loop or the loop itself. The lack of movement because of the tape wore the nylon out in places prematurely and could not be inspected well; and also because he simply did not want retire the harness.
Yes, I remember there was a lot of concern about the state of Todd’s belay loop. HowNot2 stated it was 20% worn through, but my spidey sense went off because I remember it being described as 80% worn through (I think in the RockandIce analysis).I remember this because everyone was horrified by the recklessness of using a harness in that state of distress, and we still discuss the tragedy as a cautionary tale.
I have an old harness that my gym won't let me climb in anymore, they set their max life at 5 years. I'd be happy to send it your way if it can add to a data set in any way. I was also surprised that the acid didn't do a ton. Looking at the chemical compatibility of dyneema and nylon, I'm pretty impressed, who knew?! I've heard/read caution of heat cycling soft goods, perhaps that would have an effect on strength? Thanks for all the interesting and confidence inspiring content, I've gained a lot from this channel.
I have loved this channel since the beginning, would be keen to see some swiftwater rescue setup and gear testing. Happy to share info from Australia/NZ
Yes this event resonates with me as i followed Todd's life and climbing career similarly as you did. I would love to dive deeper into this as i still don't know exactly if heat generated failure on the loop was the culprit or some unknown such as other wear and tear that we may not know of.
In commercial rigging of people I believe all components need to be rated for ten times? the weight of the load for safety. So we had the tie off cables of stainless steel that were 3/8” thick good for several tons all to keep a couple men from falling.
I always repelled with two biners through the waist&leg loops. And belayed on the belay loop with the biner through the main and a back up loop. I like redundancy.
I girth hitch my personal anchor to both hard points. Have been doing it for 15 years and it's never bothered me and definitely more redundant. It also keeps it out of the way if everything else.
I've got a handful of discarded harnesses. Most of them wear down on the lower loop (part attached to the leg loops). This is because the belay loop and the rope rub that part the most.
Great video. And I appreciate that you tested the sendero belay loop. I got that harness a few months ago and when I put it on for the first time I was like that’s one skinny belay loop!
To add a belay loop I use a Openable ring from petzl and it works perfectly for many different purposes, multi pitch applications or even rope access to add a chest progress capture such that a croll or a basic and having a light and fast rope access system.
CAMP makes some harnesses that have the no twist belay loop. Where you put your biner in between the layers of the loop. Might be something to look at im sure its super good enough but it made me take a douple look at my belay loop
consider this: all stitches are exposed (depending on design) there are many layers of fibers in the webbing, but it's connected with stitching that is all exposed. if the stitching wears out, the loop will break. also i think this may be the reason why the partially cut loop broke at the same force, because the stitching was the weak point?
Your videos are getting more and more entertaining. I love the way you present and discuss questions. I would definitely buy at your store because if sympathy, but you don't ship to Europe.
L-36 is The Man! While I've a climbing background dating back to when 'nuts' were reamed-out truck wheelnuts, this past 5 decades I've been using rope on sailboats. Especially single-braid Dyneema. One approach for HowNOT2 might be to make a multi-loop 'sling' in 3mm Dyneema, with the ends 'long bury' spliced together - using a Brummel Splice with a couple of locking stitches. I use 5, 6, 7 loops according to load/safety factor considerations. I also make up this modern 'selvagee strop' inside a tube of anti-chafe Dyneema, which is overlong so one end swallows the other and is held together with a couple of stitiches. Yes, this is fiddly, requiring a splicing needle made from piano wire, but is likely the strongest of the strop assemblies and is how many commercial lifting slings are made. If you know of a stronger way, I'll happily use yours....
the cut/worn out loop broke at the same force as the untouched one probably because the cut made the loop fabric strength close to that of the stiches :) So in one case the fabric tore, in the other the fabric was nowhere close to the limit, but the stiches were gone.
I have re-done my petzl connects with smaller cord that I tie in the harness same as the climbing line. I think this causes less wear to the harness than girthing the belay loop. Also i switched to a double loop of titan cord for my soloist a long time ago. Made a more compact knot and knew it was stronger than a loop of 9mm.
I love your analysis and channel and think "gear fear" has kept me safe for over 40 years of climbing. I have a difficult time believing that two apposing oval carbineers through leg and waist straps isn't superior to the belay loop for trad climbing. I always use smooth non locking gates with nothing to bind. Most of the (tri) loading is on rappel and using different carbineers over the years.
When I started caving there were two main lamp types used, both commecial mining lamps. There were lead-acid "Oldham" lamps and also (older) ones using NiFe cells. The NiFe cells used an alkaline electrolyte. At the time it was considered very important to use the right webbing for the belay belt (which also held the lamp). But, it is clearly not considered important any more as I have been unable to find out which was meant to match with each, even after a fair bit of googling. I think it was Nylon for acid resistance and polyester for alkaline resistance. But it could just as easily have been the other way round.
I have not seen this guy in a while, and I am impressed with how he has built his little company. It is important, we as consumers, support small businesses, such as this, and their hard working owners, and employees, as our government, and our greedy billionaires work feverishly to destroy them. No I am not affiliated with this company. I am just an old retired small business owner, impressed by a hardworking, creative, young small business owner.
Interesting observation: Your couple "cut" belay loop break tests were done with the loop worn differently than the loops likely wear in real use; try cutting one layer of wraps on the inside all the way across, instead of sideways through all the layers. I'd imagine the loops wear from the inside out, and therefore could lose a lot of strength if one of the wraps is fully worn through. The newer style built-like-a-rope "infinite" loops seem like they'd have far less of an issue there since there's several layers of sheath protecting from this wear pattern before you hit any of the core strands, and for that matter, would be much more obvious when worn to the core and easier to identify as a "need to retire" condition.
I think this is a good demonstration that added margin of safety is not the same as more kN of breaking strength. More kN of breaking strength _might_ indicate a greater margin of safety but for belay loops it is repetitive wear that will erode the margin of safety overtime so the absolute strength might be lower than other kit but still have more material to cope with entropy integrated over lifespan. [Upvote for putting a belay loop (or similar) in the rub-master!]
The rings on rope access harnesses are also some of the least redundant parts of industrial rope access systems. It's certainly an interesting conversation.
When belaying someone, the belayer only sees a fraction of the forces the climber experiences. So the belay loop only ever sees a fraction of that force, thus having a fraction of the rating would give you the same safety factor. The uses of a belay loop is … belaying, rappelling, or a PA. Unlike a sling or a carabiner which are used in places that experience more forces, so you need a higher rating for the same safety factor.
Yet when you hitch your PAS to the belay loop and it gets shock loaded the forces it'll see could be very high, even if your PAS is dynamic. I think the UIAA rating is negligent, especially when you consider that belay loops are a high wear point and take repeated large loads.
@@NPC-fl3gq yeah if you put slack into your PAS. Definitely valid and one of the reasons you hear the warning to never put slack in your PAS or climb above the anchor your teathered to
@@NPC-fl3gq based on testing Ryan has done on this channel, you will literally be ripped apart by your harness before the belay loop breaks. Your body cannot handle forces high enough to break the belay loop unless it's damaged.
@@nikolaihedler8883 Yeah that's a new one. They go downhill from there. Also, your belay loop is a single point of failure, and anything that falls into that category should be beefed up because there is zero redundancy. Mammut engineers advise against girth hitching slings to the belay loop because under heavy loads (eg falling onto your PAS with slack in the system) it produces a cutting effect on the belay loop - yes, a sling will cut a belay loop, not the other way around. The real world introduces variables that aren't easy to reproduce in lab tests.
@@NPC-fl3gq did you even watch the video you're commenting on? 13:00 literally shows that exact configuration and at >13kN, you are gonna be ripped in half by your harness before the belay loop breaks. The Mammut engineer in Ondra's video (which is the only source I'm aware of for that claim) also says you should tri-load a carabiner instead, which Mammut's own instructions explicitly state should never be done.
Belay loops are rated 15 kN because climbing ropes (and ferrata set) are allowed to transmit forces of 12 kN or less to the climber. Anyway your redundancy comment makes sense! Note: using a bowline instead of girth hitch for connecting slings to the loop would probably avoid the "cut through" effect
HowNOT2 Thanks so much for this! I've been so glad to have discovered this channel a lot. I'd never heard of other people having something like gear fear. Would you ever think about showing the screen measuring the force as it pulls. like just in the corner or something? That seems like it would be fun to watch 🤙🏻
Love the channel and all gear purchases possible get referred to you folks...Another great video. I would love to see one or literature of how the "runners" are stronger than the belay loops...???...that make no logical sense, yet you showed it!
I think your original bigwall harness shows one of the mechanisms for worn loops being so much weaker. You can see in the slow motion that the webbing pulls, starts slipping, and *then* the angled box stitching engages, which seems to be stronger than the webbing, making the webbing the point of failure. It seems like the first and only time the box stitch ever saw stress was near its breaking strength, and the edge stitching was holding the rest of the time. I think some of the older belay loop designs loaded the box stitching the entire time they were used, putting wear and tear on what should be the strongest part. Most of the other tests failed at the box stitch rather than the webbing.
And this is exactly why we try to have two bolts. The hardware may be super strong (assuming it is not home made), but there is always the potential that a hole was not properly cleaned, etc. and the bolt is not as strong as it should be
Acid is probably not going to do much to the polymers of climbing gear. Scary stuff like acetone, thinner, superglue, that may make for a whole different behavior. Or even white spirit or rubbing in fine sand crystals for a good while.
Appreciate the video, I was looking in to that very thing. Got a sport but looking for an upgrade. Misty mountain Cadillac with the extra belay loops seems to be the best around for comfortabilty and strength. Got this flake at Belle Island aid only. Once I get setup for that I should be able to do most things I'm thinking.
“Tend to have two [bolts] at every anchor” that is not the case everywhere. Many european crags have single bolt anchors. They usually are half inch or 3/8” glue ins.
Two bolts at every anchor would be ideal, I climb in Europe and can confirm it. Of course there are plenty of crags with nice 2 point anchors but there is also a lot with just one point at the top from which you will rappel down. I hate it, when there is only one point, but that's the way it is.. Same case is in canyoning.
Hey, I love the videos. Have you ever done a similar test with a base such as household bleach? I was always told that this would weaken climbing soft goods...
Sewn runners didn't exist when I started climbing. Everything was tied in a knot. When I saw the first sewn runners I thought they were sketchy. How could some stitches be as strong as a good knot? LOL I have never gotten over this fear when it comes to belay loops. The early harnesses didn't have them, and I still clip through the leg loops and waist together just like you tie in. I normally use an atc type device. The only time I use the belay loop is with the grigri because that gives it the proper orientation.
I'd be interested to see what happens with excessive abrasion on the stiches. Like using a dremel on on it. I know they're strong, but it always seems like they could be easily damaged.
Hi, my belay loop had an accident one day and was cut almost half the way, it was a Petzl one and your test made me think I could have still use it! None the less I would never do that so I replaced it with a O ring from Petzl, light and strong (maybe a bit expansive but, you know...). I just have to be watchfull with not using steel carabinner with my aluminium O ring.
Oh and, thanks a lot for your tests and videos, I'm a rope access worker/technician and you have amazing content keep understanding better the gear we use and its limits
I’m a retired NFL OL. I have zero intention of ever climbing but your passion for super safe enough and showing how gear works makes me love the channel. Been watching 3 or so years now
Go ducks.
I was just going to post the same thing! (minus the NFL OL and a shorter watching timeline) I love this channel!
go try climbing man it's fun
@@johnnycigar3240 hahah my fingers are so destroyed from ball😂 I went the opposite route and picked up scuba diving. However I have such a tremendous amount of praise / respect to climbers
@@adamtravan3946 Sco
I do very little climbing, but am a structural engineer. I notice the multiple looped belay loops are laid up in a spiral configuration. The outer circle will experience more elongation than the inner circle. We can see this in your break tests, where the stitching first rips on the outer section. There is a unzippering mechanism happening to the stitching. This leads to a progressive increase in the tearing stress on the remaining stitching. In contrast, the 'infinite' belay loop has the stress equally shared through the entire circumference and the cross section. I believe that is why the 'infinite' belay loop are yielding double the breaking force compared to the 'spiral' belay loop.
Great analysis ! 👏😏
As an engineer that makes a lot of sense. Doubling tripling it up doesn't make it stronger, it removes sensitivity to local wear as the forces can move around the ring
We need to make him a "full rate" fall simulator to see the shock absorption differences in these constructions. There is a whole other world of results waiting for him/us. He's going to need a lot more samples too.
I was on a climbing date with a Skinner (family member of Todd's) a number of years after Todd died. The harness I was wearing was so old and tattered I had tied my own belay loop to supplement the existing one. As I was tying in the gal just started shouting my name and looing down at the harness. It actually took me a moment to figure out what she was trying to communicate. All of a sudden being proud dirtbag didn't feel so proud, I went and got a new harness.
I don't even climb rocks, I bought a harness to work on sailboat rigging because I dislike the bosun's chair. Yet I've spent the last week watching these videos every night just out of curiosity. Good stuff man.
This is awesome, because climbing wouldn't be what it is today without sailing. When it comes to ropework, we have taken soooo much inspiration from sailing.
Some people do both, especially when you've got to work aloft for a long time. Harness (on the inside) for safety, chair for comfort. It can be a little tricky to tie on, but if you're going up on 2 halyards anyway, you can just tie in to the harness and clip the shackle on the chair.
Try rock climbing at least once. If you're a sailor, I bet you already have strong grip and forearms. Climbing is mostly grip strength and balance, and it's also addictive
Hey I really want more experience boating and I fantasize about a life roving the coasts....got worse balance than a blind 3 legged beagle 😅 tac into the wind for me!
Presumably the reason belay loops are only required to be 15kn while everything else is over 20kn is that any piece of gear (other than the belay loop) could be clipped to a bolt or gear placement when catching a lead fall, which puts twice as much force on that component as the belay loop
Also, your back will most likely break with a force higher than 15kn
And belay loops don’t have knots put in them to weaken them
This makes a lot of sense
I'd still rather them be 22kN 😂
I thought it was because people will clip/haul things that are not people so they need the other gear to be ready for dead weight falls. Nothing but people should be attached to the belay loop, so it just needs to be stronger than the human.
Love your channel. My background is soft shackles and mast climbing (sailboat). As you might know, I invented or co-invented the soft shackles you use. A lot of this work was chronicled on a Sailing Anarchy forum where a person with screen name Estar had a setup to break stuff similar to yours. One of the things he found, and the reason for my comment has to do with the different kinds of stitching I saw in this video. What we found was that stitching that runs parallel to the webbing, like a fairly popular X-Box stitch, fails because the device under test stretches before it breaks and that stretching breaks the stitching. I could see that happening on some of your tests. That is the advantage of having a series of bar tacks. The thread is not stretched as the material is pulled. I use my Sailrite zig-zag machine to put home made bar tacks in webbing. Estar tested that and it was super good enough. BTW, I am wondering if there is a harness that is a comfortable as a Bosuns chair for climbing a mast.
Try an Industrial Harness (something like the Petzl AVAO SIT FAST). Wider leg loops that really support your legs, also there is a seat that you can clip to your harness, makes it super comfortable. I work as an Industrial Climber and have done some yacht mast work.
I have a Weaver sling style harness that I find to be very comfortable.
@@greenbimoon 2nd the Petzl industrial harness.
Wonderful insight, thank you for sharing.
Maybe a good test would be running a belay loop on the machine that simulates wear (like years of rappelling and friction) and then testing it? A clean cut might be quite different from cyclical loading and friction when you're break testing. Just a thought!
Seems like the stitching was the weak point on the more 'normal' looking loops. If the abrasion was right at the seam I bet it could break low without looking suspiciously worn.
I offerd Ryan my Harness. Maybe he'll consider it one day. My Harness ist quite .... used... ill hand him a pic later.
I was thinking the same: put a wheel over a rock and drag a belay loop on the rock for 10.000 turns (or 100,000) so it wears evenly on the whole surface. Then break test it.
Impossible to accurately simulate. You need an indicator in the actual harness and trash it once it becomes exposed.
I agree 100% just commenting to bump this more.
Sacrificing so much of your personal gear that has so much sentimental value for science is pretty badass. Thank you!
One of My Absolute Favorite Channels to Watch! Your such An ASSET to Your Climbing Community! Although I'm a 71 year old Active Arborist I Truly Love the Passion You Have for Your Sport!
I think there are a lot of us 'Although I'm a...." here. I'm a sailor. Absolutely amazing channel. For the climbing gear, but also for anything from ropes, hardware, methods, dangers; and especially for the thinking. After all what's the most dangerous piece of 'kit' anyone can bring to anything? Assumptions, false assumptions, fallacious arguments. ("It's always worked before....") And "Someone on the internet said...." (Which I confess applies to me here.)
Todd Skinner was a hero of mine. Most psyched climber I have ever met.
I assume you've read the book his buddy wrote!? It's worth reading if you haven't!!
@bonefishboards Most psyched and a true inspiration for everyone he met. Was honored to climb with him from the early days..
Plastics in general are resistant to acids because they are hydrophobic (don't absorb water). This is a vast generalization but for the plastics you are testing and the acids climbing gear might come in contact with in a house or car it is true enough. I would be much more worried about plastics coming in contact with common solvents (gasoline, mineral spirits, motor oil, etc.). Plastics in general are not resistant to these chemicals as these chemicals tend to be absorbed into or actually dissolve plastic. I can imagine that there is a solvent that would badly damage the belay loop but leave no obvious outward visual queue of that damage. Another possibility is bleach (laundry or pool chemicals), as the oxidizing effect would be similar to sun damage (fibers become brittle). Keep up the good work.
Ozone? Gas from fridges etc can wreck plastics
Good point. Back in the the day I can recall some gear mfrs having a separate range of gear for cavers which used an acid resistant material - since cavers in that era used lead-acid battery powered lamps. Doing a quick Google those product lines no longer around. Presume these days less use of lead-acid lamps.
Some industrial abseil kit suppliers still mentioning acid resistance.
My wife once put a cotton ball with nail polish remover in a plastic bowl, which dissolved a small defect into the bowl where it was sitting. I'd be curious to see a test similar to this.
I have been watching for a long time and love a good Soft Shackle. you are a true Asset to the community and you dive deeper into the rabbit Holes than anyone really should. Butt our community still has so much to learn, so I Plug your channel to all of my friends.
Underrated comment
I see what you did there
Acids are only corrosive and bases are only caustic when they are wet.
(Did you ever try to slip on handles bicycle handle bars? Impossible. Then you spray the metal handle with Windex or ammonia (a base) and the handle slides right on. But when the ammonia dries (faster than you'd think) it's permanent. And the tightness keeps out water which would reactivate the ammonia. But working water or ammonia back in there would be the way to remove it later.
Ammonia is a Base who's properties are tastes bitter, is slippery and burns - like soap. Soaps also contain a lot of fat which is why a dry bar of it is still slippery.
And some substances are completely or highly resistant to acids and bases. Like glass and some plastics. Terrific episode , and respect to Todd Skinner.
ammonia is volatile
Damn it man I'm here for the physics not the chemistry
@@chicken29843 😜
I don't climb, but I'm about 93 hours into your channel.
So I setup a zipline low and slow, and life is happy.
21:08 -- Tridundancy! 😃
Since cutting through the webbing does not weaken it enough, what if the rubbing over the years abraded the bar-tack stitching on one side (since that seems to be the breaking point on most of these). If that is true, it would make the "infinite" loops much safer from normal wear and tear.
Good point. This theory should be tested. Hint hint.
Or fatigue from use, not even abrasion, just bending 1,000 times.
I have used the Misty Mountain Cadillac since 2000. Their shop is just an hour from my house and used it all over Utah and Arizona as well. I hope you love it as much as I do. So good.
If I had any interest in actually climbing myself, I would buy from your store. I am living vicariously through you. All I have to offer is a thumb's up.
Sulfuric acid works very differently from formic acid. If you try sulphuric, don’t do it in workshop as the fumes can weaken stuff in the area, do it outside
Todd Skinner died because his harness was old and had a very worn belay loop. His partner noticed this while they were rappelling g and pointed it out and Todd replied that he had a new one on order. If he he headed his partners warning his death could have been prevented in several easy ways: clip his belay device biner directly into hos tie in points. Thread a 4ft sling through his tie-in points , equalize and tie and overhand knot and clip the belay device biner to this extension point, Make a backup belay loop with a piece of cord, etc.
The accident was caused by human error, not because belay loops are dangerous.
In real world scenarios you will never find a scenario where you come close to 16kN of force on a belay loop.
Sure, but begs the question. The research shows the harness damaged like his should have been "good enough."
What questions does it beg?
And what imagined research are you referring to?
@@michaelbrowder1759 until it's not. The cost/consequence ratio is so low, that calling out even the slightest wear and replacing should not be a big deal, even though it's "super good enough".
@@michaelbrowder1759 The testing is actually pretty clear. We didn't get to see a highly worn belay loop with a personal anchor girth hit hed to it, but you saw what the girth hitch did to a reasonable belay loop.
This is no different than calculating rope strength across pulleys based on pull angle, except that we're also destroying the opposite axis of the line at the same time (squeezing with the girth hitch across the cord). I can't think of a worse way to rig anything to a soft point. In the military, we're specifically taught not to do this (and we're the "expendable" ones!).
I was taught from day one (decades ago), never to attach anything directly to, and only to the "belay loop".
Never did, and never will.
It's mostly there to keep your harness together.
It would be interesting to use a seam ripper or razor and specifically compromise the bar tacks.
I was thinking the same thing. We saw that cutting thru the side is still strong enough but what happens if the "bar code" stitches on the inside of the loop get worn thru?
I laughed when you suggested double looping the soft shackle. Two weeks ago I made a longer than normal soft shackle out of 1.3mm Marlow D12 SK99 and got about seven wraps of it before looping the button knot. I'm determined that my ID card holder will not break off the pass retractor ever again.
I think you need more wraps.
One alternative to a soft shackle that gets rid of the knot is to splice an endless loop of Dyneema. Tools needed are a D-Splicer, a way to cut the dyneema length you want, a few pins, a rope-safe marker to mark locations on the rope, and a needle & thread for final stitching & whipping to make it look nice. You can also do a sort of mini-spanset, splicing a multi-wrap loop of thin Dyneema inside an outer sheath (preferably of Dacron for max UV & wear resistance, but Nylon comes close and is good enough. Jan-Willem Polman has instructions for this on pgs 140-145 of his book "Splicing Modern Ropes". No bulge, plenty strong.
or buy a factory made soft shackle :) They are popular in e.g. paralgiding now
@@mmmmkkk Factory-made soft shackles still have the knot's bulk to deal with. An endless loop can be used where that's not viable. They're common in sailing.
I literally had this same thought. He did a video a year or two ago where he worked with a sailor and made this exact thing. I'm actually very curious about why that wasn't brought up in this video...
Love these videos and very happy with the service from your site.
I just checked out your shop for the first time, and it's incredible!! You have literally everything and so much info on everything and the layout is fantastic. It's like the shop every climber dreamed it could be like. Well done Ryan!
I think cutting 3/4 through us pretty different to being heavily abraded, as every fibre might at some point be at the surface of the sling/belay loop. Maybe cutting/sanding through the surface 0.25mm all the way around might show that better.
you are right. Someone here in the uk did tests on various slings. With dyneema they could be cut 75% through and still perform well but when abraded with a matchbox across the entire width they failed easily.
You are the gift that keeps on giving, brother!!
Thanks for the great video. I've primarily been a steep sport climber for almost 30 years and all of the harnesses I've retired were from wear to the leg loop tie in point of the harness. Years ago Arc'teryx made a harness that you could buy the leg loops separately from the waist belt so I was able to replace the leg loops when the tie in point wore out and the waist tie in point wore out before the second set of leg loops did. In most climbing applications, if the webbing is usually out of the sun and doesn't get contaminated, it seems that the belay loop shouldn't be the part of the harness weakening first.
I am not a climber I used to do highrise window cleaning and I also painted water towers. It has been about 15 years since the last time. I never had any accidents or failures of equipment or safety gear. I am haunted by one of the times my failure to use safety gear left me in a precarious situation. I was obviously able to stay calm enough to get myself out of the situation. As we know being able to trust in the gear is what gives the convenience to do these things either for occupation or pleasure. Gear fear is most certainly a real phenomenon and could be debilitating. I am still intrigued about this subject and thank you for creating this content.
You guys are the best. Keep this amazing information coming
All of those harnesses can still be saved by a big locking carabiner to replace the belay loop. Misty mountains tactical harnesses all use a locker
It's really sad that all the great things that Todd Skinner accomplished in climbing and what an awesome dude he was are forgotten, and his legacy is reduced to "soft on soft."
I really loved that softshackle hack with the 1/8th dyneema.
I would rather splice a continuous loop from dyneema than use a soft shackle for an extra loop. If bury makes it too long, double it up inside a piece of webbing buried in itself to keep it clean. Endless loop will not open. Never done one of belay loop size though, I hope there is not something impractical I'm missing.
Of course, if you're not splicing it yourself but getting a commercial ready made one, that is a different story. Then you need a way to open one to connect it.
By far the best super good enough channel out there. Thanks for keeping us mostly safe ;)
I'm really glad you tested the Sendero. I have been climbing on one for a few months and the belay loop has always weirded me out. It's just so different from any other harness I've used.
did you see any red thread that they advertise for the wear indicator? i couldn’t see it in the video?
Might be one of my favorite videos. A guide I have been with a number of times personally and also taken my instructor course with was the one that suggested I girth hitch both waist and leg instead of belay. His reasoning was to make the radius bigger esp because of the skinny sling I was using. I’ve since moved to an offset basket hitch with an overhand to make my tether and rappel extension most of the time I need one, and based on a video you did a while back, I use a nylon sling for it instead of my dyneema ones.
Hey, great comment! Would you mind linking that old video of his if you can remember something to search it by?
@@Ghostman719 it wasn’t something I learned in a video unfortunately. I was out with a climbing guide and that was how he suggested I rig a tether and rappel extension out of one double length sling given my rack for the day.
I tie a double length sling using a bowline on a bight through the waist and leg loops making what I've always considered a kinda 2nd-ish belay loop and personal anchor/rap extension. AlpineSavvy has a writeup about doing a bowline on a bight to the belay loop, not like I do through the waist+leg loops (mimicking the belay loop) and I would love to hear from the community if what I'm doing is dumb or super good enough. And I'm using nylon slings to make it a little stretchy.
So adding the acid is like cutting the belay loop partly. It weakens it but it’s still amazingly strong. I was surprised.
Definitely another very helpful video!
Thank you for the high quality informative video as always! I'm local and have a couple decade old harness if you want to try to abrade the stitching.
I like how you point out the breaking strength of the human body. The Air Force has published papers on this for ejection seats and such, generally for fully harnessed subjects (i.e. best case).
I like the climbing technology and grivel multi chain since it can girth hitch without pinching the tie in points together. It makes a little fixed loop
I would love to work with all the buckles off of those destroyed harnesses, maybe we could do a trade, I make a lot of interesting outdoor products and bags … lemme know
I just love the amount of new merchandise you break for everyone's information. I think out of all the videos that I'm subbed to, it's always these I tend to watch to completion. I also have been rocking the same harness since 2016... I should probably check out your store.
I haven't thought about the soft shackle going where it's not supposed to in a very long time. 😂 Thanks for bringing that memory back! 😂🤣😂🤣😂
While using a soft shackle for a belay loop seems super good enough, if you dont know how to tie them they can be super sketchy. Splicing a loop is at least marginally easier than tying a button knot, and you can keep that loop inside a chafe cover like whats seen in the dyneema sailing loop video
I effectively make a second belay loop by attaching my personal anchor to my harness with a bowline on the hard points parallel to the belay loop instead of girth hitching. The bowline ring becomes the second loop, keeps the original free, all while having a personal anchor too
Also, shifting a girth hitch to a bowline takes only a certain wrap. Dead easy.
Isn’t it bad to cross-load a bowline?
@@dubhunter nope, it is exactly like this bowline master point: ua-cam.com/video/3N930_jt5HY/v-deo.html&ab_channel=HowToRockandAlpineClimb
bowlines work well ring loaded
When I was taught repelling, we used climbing rope to make the harness. Years later I learned radio tower climbers like to get new factory harness's every year. The sticking weakens from UV, oils body and otherwise, storage conditions and failures aren't good. I figure the sticking adds a weakness altering original weaves.
The narrow girth hitched sling cutting the belay loop was insightful. Maybe thin strong webbing is better used just against metal, and not against other webbing.
Great video! One thing that is pretty interesting about the strength of a belay loop is the tack pattern and how many times the needle goes through the webbing.
Thanks for breaking what seemed like a thousand bucks worth of harnesses for science (and fun ). Definitely useful and good to know my belay loop is super good enough.
You wouldn’t ever catch me climbing a huge wall, or even in a rock climbing gym but I still love these videos. I greatly appreciate the time and all the gear you destroy on your own dime.
I’m the guy that would use all three of those stacking loops knowing full well the harness would break before they do.
Ha, that's what I said, and now I'm collecting climbing gear and training at a gym. It is more satisfying and less difficult than many think. That said, I have a new respect for climbers!
I would love to see you slice into both sides of the belay loop instead of just one. Take around 15% on either side enough to cut through that sewing on either side that goes around the loop. This would better simulate wear of both sides instead of a cut on just one side.
Great video as always Ryan!
this channel legit rules!! subscribed.. i feel like im learning something 😅.. going to airborne school in the army they told us NOTHING.. Basically just "Jump NOW! Trust your equipment!!"
That's all you needed to know, Airborne. That parachute is a troop delivery system with a maintenance department built-in, and the only goal is to get 70% of the jumpers to the ground. Nothing you can do while you're in air anyway.
If I remember right, Todd had put duct tape or climbers finger tape on the harness in and around the belay loop or the loop itself. The lack of movement because of the tape wore the nylon out in places prematurely and could not be inspected well; and also because he simply did not want retire the harness.
Yes, I remember there was a lot of concern about the state of Todd’s belay loop. HowNot2 stated it was 20% worn through, but my spidey sense went off because I remember it being described as 80% worn through (I think in the RockandIce analysis).I remember this because everyone was horrified by the recklessness of using a harness in that state of distress, and we still discuss the tragedy as a cautionary tale.
I have an old harness that my gym won't let me climb in anymore, they set their max life at 5 years. I'd be happy to send it your way if it can add to a data set in any way.
I was also surprised that the acid didn't do a ton. Looking at the chemical compatibility of dyneema and nylon, I'm pretty impressed, who knew?!
I've heard/read caution of heat cycling soft goods, perhaps that would have an effect on strength?
Thanks for all the interesting and confidence inspiring content, I've gained a lot from this channel.
I have loved this channel since the beginning, would be keen to see some swiftwater rescue setup and gear testing. Happy to share info from Australia/NZ
Yes this event resonates with me as i followed Todd's life and climbing career similarly as you did. I would love to dive deeper into this as i still don't know exactly if heat generated failure on the loop was the culprit or some unknown such as other wear and tear that we may not know of.
In commercial rigging of people I believe all components need to be rated for ten times? the weight of the load for safety. So we had the tie off cables of stainless steel that were 3/8” thick good for several tons all to keep a couple men from falling.
Thank you for making this video.
I always repelled with two biners through the waist&leg loops. And belayed on the belay loop with the biner through the main and a back up loop. I like redundancy.
Love this video. Any other nerds out there predicting the force based on the sound the rig makes? 😂
Wait, you mean everyone doesn't do that??
I girth hitch my personal anchor to both hard points. Have been doing it for 15 years and it's never bothered me and definitely more redundant. It also keeps it out of the way if everything else.
I've got a handful of discarded harnesses. Most of them wear down on the lower loop (part attached to the leg loops). This is because the belay loop and the rope rub that part the most.
Great video. And I appreciate that you tested the sendero belay loop. I got that harness a few months ago and when I put it on for the first time I was like that’s one skinny belay loop!
To add a belay loop I use a Openable ring from petzl and it works perfectly for many different purposes, multi pitch applications or even rope access to add a chest progress capture such that a croll or a basic and having a light and fast rope access system.
I've always wondered how those harness loops hold up even after years of use and abuse. Good job! Picked up a thing or two.
CAMP makes some harnesses that have the no twist belay loop. Where you put your biner in between the layers of the loop. Might be something to look at im sure its super good enough but it made me take a douple look at my belay loop
consider this: all stitches are exposed (depending on design)
there are many layers of fibers in the webbing, but it's connected with stitching that is all exposed. if the stitching wears out, the loop will break.
also i think this may be the reason why the partially cut loop broke at the same force, because the stitching was the weak point?
Your videos are getting more and more entertaining. I love the way you present and discuss questions. I would definitely buy at your store because if sympathy, but you don't ship to Europe.
You're a saint for all this work.
L-36 is The Man! While I've a climbing background dating back to when 'nuts' were reamed-out truck wheelnuts, this past 5 decades I've been using rope on sailboats. Especially single-braid Dyneema.
One approach for HowNOT2 might be to make a multi-loop 'sling' in 3mm Dyneema, with the ends 'long bury' spliced together - using a Brummel Splice with a couple of locking stitches. I use 5, 6, 7 loops according to load/safety factor considerations. I also make up this modern 'selvagee strop' inside a tube of anti-chafe Dyneema, which is overlong so one end swallows the other and is held together with a couple of stitiches.
Yes, this is fiddly, requiring a splicing needle made from piano wire, but is likely the strongest of the strop assemblies and is how many commercial lifting slings are made.
If you know of a stronger way, I'll happily use yours....
the cut/worn out loop broke at the same force as the untouched one probably because the cut made the loop fabric strength close to that of the stiches :) So in one case the fabric tore, in the other the fabric was nowhere close to the limit, but the stiches were gone.
I have re-done my petzl connects with smaller cord that I tie in the harness same as the climbing line. I think this causes less wear to the harness than girthing the belay loop.
Also i switched to a double loop of titan cord for my soloist a long time ago. Made a more compact knot and knew it was stronger than a loop of 9mm.
I love your analysis and channel and think "gear fear" has kept me safe for over 40 years of climbing. I have a difficult time believing that two apposing oval carbineers through leg and waist straps isn't superior to the belay loop for trad climbing. I always use smooth non locking gates with nothing to bind. Most of the (tri) loading is on rappel and using different carbineers over the years.
With modern polymers I wouldn't worry about acid.... I'd worry about contamination with hydrocarbons. Like DEET, sunscreen, fuels, and so on.
When I started caving there were two main lamp types used, both commecial mining lamps.
There were lead-acid "Oldham" lamps and also (older) ones using NiFe cells.
The NiFe cells used an alkaline electrolyte. At the time it was considered very important to use the right webbing for the belay belt (which also held the lamp).
But, it is clearly not considered important any more as I have been unable to find out which was meant to match with each, even after a fair bit of googling.
I think it was Nylon for acid resistance and polyester for alkaline resistance. But it could just as easily have been the other way round.
I have not seen this guy in a while, and I am impressed with how he has built his little company. It is important, we as consumers, support small businesses, such as this, and their hard working owners, and employees, as our government, and our greedy billionaires work feverishly to destroy them. No I am not affiliated with this company. I am just an old retired small business owner, impressed by a hardworking, creative, young small business owner.
Interesting observation: Your couple "cut" belay loop break tests were done with the loop worn differently than the loops likely wear in real use; try cutting one layer of wraps on the inside all the way across, instead of sideways through all the layers. I'd imagine the loops wear from the inside out, and therefore could lose a lot of strength if one of the wraps is fully worn through. The newer style built-like-a-rope "infinite" loops seem like they'd have far less of an issue there since there's several layers of sheath protecting from this wear pattern before you hit any of the core strands, and for that matter, would be much more obvious when worn to the core and easier to identify as a "need to retire" condition.
Any good harness nowadays has an indicator thread and a stated lifetime. If one ignores both, it's not really the fault of the harness.
I think this is a good demonstration that added margin of safety is not the same as more kN of breaking strength. More kN of breaking strength _might_ indicate a greater margin of safety but for belay loops it is repetitive wear that will erode the margin of safety overtime so the absolute strength might be lower than other kit but still have more material to cope with entropy integrated over lifespan. [Upvote for putting a belay loop (or similar) in the rub-master!]
The rings on rope access harnesses are also some of the least redundant parts of industrial rope access systems. It's certainly an interesting conversation.
When belaying someone, the belayer only sees a fraction of the forces the climber experiences. So the belay loop only ever sees a fraction of that force, thus having a fraction of the rating would give you the same safety factor.
The uses of a belay loop is … belaying, rappelling, or a PA. Unlike a sling or a carabiner which are used in places that experience more forces, so you need a higher rating for the same safety factor.
Yet when you hitch your PAS to the belay loop and it gets shock loaded the forces it'll see could be very high, even if your PAS is dynamic.
I think the UIAA rating is negligent, especially when you consider that belay loops are a high wear point and take repeated large loads.
@@NPC-fl3gq yeah if you put slack into your PAS. Definitely valid and one of the reasons you hear the warning to never put slack in your PAS or climb above the anchor your teathered to
@@NPC-fl3gq based on testing Ryan has done on this channel, you will literally be ripped apart by your harness before the belay loop breaks. Your body cannot handle forces high enough to break the belay loop unless it's damaged.
@@nikolaihedler8883
Yeah that's a new one. They go downhill from there. Also, your belay loop is a single point of failure, and anything that falls into that category should be beefed up because there is zero redundancy.
Mammut engineers advise against girth hitching slings to the belay loop because under heavy loads (eg falling onto your PAS with slack in the system) it produces a cutting effect on the belay loop - yes, a sling will cut a belay loop, not the other way around.
The real world introduces variables that aren't easy to reproduce in lab tests.
@@NPC-fl3gq did you even watch the video you're commenting on? 13:00 literally shows that exact configuration and at >13kN, you are gonna be ripped in half by your harness before the belay loop breaks. The Mammut engineer in Ondra's video (which is the only source I'm aware of for that claim) also says you should tri-load a carabiner instead, which Mammut's own instructions explicitly state should never be done.
So fun to watch!
Belay loops are rated 15 kN because climbing ropes (and ferrata set) are allowed to transmit forces of 12 kN or less to the climber.
Anyway your redundancy comment makes sense!
Note: using a bowline instead of girth hitch for connecting slings to the loop would probably avoid the "cut through" effect
HowNOT2 Thanks so much for this! I've been so glad to have discovered this channel a lot. I'd never heard of other people having something like gear fear.
Would you ever think about showing the screen measuring the force as it pulls. like just in the corner or something? That seems like it would be fun to watch 🤙🏻
Love the channel and all gear purchases possible get referred to you folks...Another great video. I would love to see one or literature of how the "runners" are stronger than the belay loops...???...that make no logical sense, yet you showed it!
I think your original bigwall harness shows one of the mechanisms for worn loops being so much weaker. You can see in the slow motion that the webbing pulls, starts slipping, and *then* the angled box stitching engages, which seems to be stronger than the webbing, making the webbing the point of failure.
It seems like the first and only time the box stitch ever saw stress was near its breaking strength, and the edge stitching was holding the rest of the time. I think some of the older belay loop designs loaded the box stitching the entire time they were used, putting wear and tear on what should be the strongest part. Most of the other tests failed at the box stitch rather than the webbing.
Thanks. Learned a lot about belay loops in this video !
You only need redundancy on the thing you can’t predict/calculate/test. So topically everything that is natural should be made redundant.
All the best
And this is exactly why we try to have two bolts. The hardware may be super strong (assuming it is not home made), but there is always the potential that a hole was not properly cleaned, etc. and the bolt is not as strong as it should be
@@foobar9220 you always have to take a leap off faith, we never know all the variables.
All the best
Acid is probably not going to do much to the polymers of climbing gear. Scary stuff like acetone, thinner, superglue, that may make for a whole different behavior.
Or even white spirit or rubbing in fine sand crystals for a good while.
Appreciate the video, I was looking in to that very thing. Got a sport but looking for an upgrade. Misty mountain Cadillac with the extra belay loops seems to be the best around for comfortabilty and strength. Got this flake at Belle Island aid only. Once I get setup for that I should be able to do most things I'm thinking.
Thank you for All that you do for us, Great Stuff that is useful. Stay Safe. Stay Well.
“Tend to have two [bolts] at every anchor” that is not the case everywhere. Many european crags have single bolt anchors. They usually are half inch or 3/8” glue ins.
Two bolts at every anchor would be ideal, I climb in Europe and can confirm it. Of course there are plenty of crags with nice 2 point anchors but there is also a lot with just one point at the top from which you will rappel down. I hate it, when there is only one point, but that's the way it is.. Same case is in canyoning.
ocun webee big wall would have been a good addition. 2 different sized belay loops made of different materials
Hey, I love the videos. Have you ever done a similar test with a base such as household bleach? I was always told that this would weaken climbing soft goods...
Sewn runners didn't exist when I started climbing. Everything was tied in a knot. When I saw the first sewn runners I thought they were sketchy. How could some stitches be as strong as a good knot? LOL I have never gotten over this fear when it comes to belay loops. The early harnesses didn't have them, and I still clip through the leg loops and waist together just like you tie in. I normally use an atc type device. The only time I use the belay loop is with the grigri because that gives it the proper orientation.
I'd be interested to see what happens with excessive abrasion on the stiches. Like using a dremel on on it. I know they're strong, but it always seems like they could be easily damaged.
Hi Robert, similar here. The first harnesses commonly seen in Yosemite, 1970's, were the Forrest swami/leg loop combo.
Really sorry for your loss man. Clearly his untimely passing affected you.
there is also potential damage from careless chemical attack, ie oils, sunscreens etc. Things which can go unseen
Hi, my belay loop had an accident one day and was cut almost half the way, it was a Petzl one and your test made me think I could have still use it!
None the less I would never do that so I replaced it with a O ring from Petzl, light and strong (maybe a bit expansive but, you know...). I just have to be watchfull with not using steel carabinner with my aluminium O ring.
Oh and, thanks a lot for your tests and videos, I'm a rope access worker/technician and you have amazing content keep understanding better the gear we use and its limits