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28:43 This is exactly what I've been seeing as well. Not only did PED users invade a space that is by and large mostly constituted of naturals so that they could sell useless training programs/supplements, but they also now complain when we point out their tricks in an attempt to secede from their vampiric reign. The natural lifting community will not take it laying down any longer and they know it, their attempts at preventing us from rebuilding a healthy group identity and reclaiming our pride is proof of it. To me, their helpless anger is an encouragement to keep pushing anti-drugs messages until not one PED apologist remains. Noble Natties unite!
I mean this is kind of embarrassing lolol. Who the fuck cares? Like seriously. Get some emotional intelligence. Who cares what others do? Worry about yourself and move along
Really is so disrespectful for Revival to assume that all natties secretely want to hop on roids. So much strawmanning and projection of insecurities. But good to see that the natty community is strong enough to stand united against it. Long live natty YT!
Yeah, I don't subscribe to NH or revival, but I've seen good videos from both. I didn't go into this with a side, but some of the things Revival was saying just seemed like pure projection. Why is he assuming people are watching his videos with SARMs websites up on their browsers?
It's simple logic. You train to pack on as much muscle as possible. If hypothetically PEDs didn't have any bad side effects what exactly would be stopping you from taking them?
@@cimi93x The fact you have to rely on drugs to keep the muscle, and the fact that it isn’t you that has earned that muscle, it’s you taking a drug to do it the easy way. 90 percent of lifting is the journey, the knowledge that you have earned every single muscle fibre through hard work and discipline, that will give a satisfaction that you cannot get from simply having a more muscular physique through taking drugs. I also don’t want to pinning needles in my ass every day
@@joebloggs6922 yes because adding muscle with PEDs is not a journey, PED users take the stuff and the next day they are 50lbs of muscle heavier lol There are oral steroids, and taking low dosages means that you can keep most of the mass you gained on trt dosages. Training naturally you are bound to reach a point at which you simply cannot add more muscle. So tell me why wouldn't you pop a pill twice a week to add more?
I started going to the gym in 2014 with my best friend. Two gym buddies on the grind together. He jumped on PEDs in 2016. Until that point we were fairly even (I was bigger, better genetics)... Literally 2 months later he was blitzing me in size and strength. I hated going with him because I couldn't keep up at all with the exercises. Stopped training with him and started my own journey alone. The year is now 2022. I stayed at it and chipped away day by day myself. He stopped the PEDs and doesn't train much at all now. I blitz him today. Not even close in terms of physiques. Consistent Nattys will always win in the medium to long term. #NobleNatties
Have seen that a lot. Maybe they'll surpass you in the "few months to a few years" timescale, but in 5 years? Hard to say. In 10-20? Usually staying natural actually wins in health AND size.
It's crazy how effective they can be in the short term. He lost significant size and strength once he stopped the PEDs. It's very easy to see why people get addicted and can't stop. Without TRT or HRT you are pretty much back to square one once you stop.
@@Mrraerae It was in the 80s , lm 60 now so you can check out how I'm doing now as a life time Natty. Just press on my profile there. So I was training with this kid. He was very quiet, meek . I was a pretty strong squatter then so we would do squats together. Within about 2 months he was out squatting me by allot . So I just looked at him...Ok what are you talking?, and he came clean almost embarrassed like. Anyway he blew up really fkn fast. He went from this pale wiry kid to this absolute monster . His personality totally changed into this Ultra extrovert. He ended up becoming probably strongest guy in the gym and winning in bodybuilding. Everyone loved him but people and his parents were worried about him. He apparently was on allot of stuff. But it was a short meteoric rise. He got sick . They said it was a tumor in his head brought on by HGH usage. His final days were rough in the hospital. I didn't go see him there but friends that did say he was a horrible sight. We all went to his funeral. It was very sad . Especially seeing his parents. This story may seem like Hyperbole but every word is true.
@@aidaninsua they care that you workout and that you look fit. They don't care how big your muscles are or how much you've gained. Maybe a very small percentage that is really into bodybuilding
Great video. One point around natural limits to muscle size/mass is that they exist for a very good reason - the body does not want more muscle at a given point of time as it cannot support the increased muscle mass without sacrificing health of connective tissue, heart health etc. None of the influencers who take gear actually explicitly state this point. Going past the natural limits once they have been reached is likely to be counter-productive to health and longevity.
Exactly this mate, they are overweight, not in fat as you think of overweight but in muscle, Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates were morbidly obese in muscle
@@GVS Given the prevalent use of steroids (and similar class of substances), perhaps it's time to re-think obesity as the condition where the body is carrying excess tissue - fat or muscle. If it's harmful for the body to carry excess fat, how is it OK for the body to carry excess muscle?
@@SriranjanSeshadri fat and muscle are still wildly different tissues...so no, it wouldn't make sense to do that. Not many people are getting to where the muscle alone is impacting health, usually it's the drugs themselves.
One point revival made that I didn’t like was the one about ‘earning your stripes’ before hopping on cycle, I see a lot of people acting like the first 5 years of lifting are something to trudge through before you get to earn the right to use peds. The way I see it if you’ve been doing well for 5 years naturally there’s no reason to start using drugs, just carry on. As for the overall argument I think morality is too complex of a subject to be based on this single decision, there’s more important things that would make me consider someone to be a good person than whether or not they chose to use peds.
If you've been doing well for 5 years and yet you still want to "break through", then imo you need to reassess why the hell you're actually lifting in the first place. Do the majority of PED users ACTUALLY want to compete against Cbum? This is where it really gets me. What the fuck are the goals of some of these folks anyway? Personally, I think it's because folks like MK actually genuinely believe that they'll miss out on an entire piece of fitness culture if they don't take PED's and the fear of plateauing in other areas of life scares the shit out of them. The sad part is that you know what the solution to that is. It's to be part of creating a fitness culture that doesn't take PED's. Should we do it like NH, with ego and pride? Imo, no. But at least he's doing something to contribute to a community that's more self-aware of natural limitations and accepts them.
I understand this very well. Combine gains that are getting so slow that they are barely visible with the instant gratification era of social media. If I trained for bodybuilding purposes only, it would get so boring for me personally that I would hop on gear. Instead, I train for powerlifting. PL keeps training constantly interesting for me mainly due to the discretely measurable increases/strength gains.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 it entirely depends on your goals dude, what gets me is people who take it despite perfectly obtainable goals without it. For example, I want to do elite calisthenics. Not compete or anything just do calisthenics at a high level. I don't need PED's for that, so there's no use taking them. 99% of people have goals that are obtainable without PED's, yet they do anyway.
A lot of ped users wont be where they are, they take the finacial opportunities of natural trainers who work harder and smarter.in a fair world where merit should be rewarded mediocrity and cheating is being rewarded with money fame and following. Aside from health thats a serious moral implication
@Vanyel_etc see but I think exactly the same way. Even if I did go on peds I'm not beating people in bodybuilding nor powerlifting at the top level anyways. Health issues, cost of the drugs, pretty much high chance to die early and for what? To be yoked like hulk in my 20s? Not worth it for most people
Better person, probably not depending on how you think of yourself. However I’m staying natty for life as I have a child and a wife that need me to be there for them for a long time. So I’d say yes, for me, staying natty makes me a better person as I’m sacrificing potential gains for longevity and health reasons in contrast to shaving years off my life to look good for other men. 🤷🏻♂️
I disagree with you feeling like you're a better person for being natural, you're not. But, I massively respect your decision to not use anything due to having a child, much respect for that. As a father myself, I relate and also don't use peds for the same reason.
@@DDB-91 it might not make me a better person morally than someone else as it’s an individuals life to make sure they do what’s right for them, however, it makes me a better version of the person I would be if I was to go down the dark road of taking PEDs for selfish gains. I choose to be better than that version so I can live long enough to make sure I can guide my children down the right path and make sure they are financially set for life. If anything was to happen to me due to being selfish for my own gain then that would very much make me a bad person for leaving them without the help they needed just so I could put on a few lbs of muscle for other people to admire my physical appearance. As a father yourself I’m sure you feel the exact same way, stay safe bother 👌🏻
Damnit Geoff you got me grinning like a moron everytime with those tennis edits. I had a good time and love your content and how fair and neutral you are. Cheers Bud.
This video aged like a fine wine. Fitness influencers are dropping dead and of course the first thing people are saying is ‘RIP what a freak accident. He was gone too soon. It’s too bad his genetics sucked giving him that disease.’ Meanwhile the guy spent the last 10 years of his life blasting PEDs like he’s trying to jump to mars.
joe's death had nothing to do with his PED use, no peds bodybuilders use cause blood clots and strokes he was vaccinated like 4 times though....... and one of those shots have been taken off of the shelf...........
also man, Joe had top 0.0001% genetics and was natty for a long time, he had world class potential. hes not comparable to the SARM goblins and fake natty influencers.
I’m basically total alignment with NH on this one. It’s not about being better intrinsically, it’s making a clearly superior choice where health and sustainability reign supreme. Unless you’re in that top .1% or whatever naturally there’s just no sound argument to use PEDs, you do what you want but people need to be informed of the risk/reward ratio to be able to make a real choice.
That’s true, if you look like dog shit without the roids 9/10 times you’ll still look like shit abusing them but you’ll have more mass for sure. To be an elite bodybuilder you kind of know at a young age you’ve got what it takes
Just because something is better for your health doesn’t make you a virtuous person. Also another thing people don’t put into context is that just like any drug dosage plays a big role in how safe a drug is. It’s not to say steroids don’t have their dangers, but most moderate steroids users live pretty typical lives. People cherry-pick the mass monsters that drop dead 30, and extrapolate to all steroid users. That would be like using alcoholics to argue against the consumption of alcohol. When most adults drink alcohol socially.
On the "taking steroids to get women" point, if you're that short on women that you're willing to take steroids to improve your chances of getting them, the problem is 100% not how muscular you are and a non-drug solution is going to be the answer.
I like Revival Fitness' content for the most part, but I am honestly a little bit disgusted that he tried using John Meadows' name to shame NH. Also, basing the argument around morality is a massive misdirection that doesn't add anything of value. Like sure, it's debatable whether there is a morality aspect to taking drugs for aesthetic/strength benefits, and even if we were to conclude there isn't (which I disagree with), then it still doesn't give the green light for widespread use/acceptance (which is something that RF hoped for - his audience going "oh yeah bro, we'd be cool with it if you or anyone hopped on"). So it's best to disregard the morality aspect entirely - and just to agree that the negatives outweigh the positives, from a rational pov. And to touch on the mental health aspect - Geoff raised a great point - "why do you so desperately need more muscle?" - most answers would not justify the means and drug use in those cases would most likely exacerbate the problem (body dysmorphia, unfulfilling life etc). So yeah, Noble Natties unite.
Everyone who is serious about lifting desperately needs more muscle, including Geoff. Otherwise he could just train once a week, stagnate, and keep his gains. Not saying he wants to look like a pro bodybuilder but i'm sure most natties would like to go beyond their natty limit
@@cimi93x Imo, there's no such thing as a natty limit, yes, gains will slow down to the point where it's hardly noticeable anymore, but then natties can focus on chasing strength standards, like Geoff is doing. There's no reason to stagnate, just keep finding new lifts that you enjoy and progress on them. Or branch out to other sports where your big ass muscles will be an advantage. There's a lot to explore and enjoy before reaching a point where you need to rely on a needle and CPAP to keep you alive. And most natties will never reach that point.
From what i see in the comments, people are reading "better" in a moral context. NH has clearly stated natties are NOT morally superior, but better in other subjects, such as health and longevity. In his opinion, all but the physical.
When you title your video "yes you are a better person" I don't know what you expect people to think. If he just meant healthier, he could say that frankly Live by the clickbait, die by the clickbait
@@GVS Please tag this comment at the very top. Because that is what was NH's main point. This is what everyone must focus on. It's more about health and longevity than about morality.
@@AP-qu2li you have a fair point, but i will say it was contextually correct as a direct opposition to Revival's title (you are not better as a natty, or something). It's the nature of the beast i guess, welcome to youtube haha
Agree, Revival was 100% projecting his own feelings & intentions in his video & very likely prepping us for the future news that he’s planning to use PEDs. I’ve never had any desire to use PEDs, & most naturals I know feel the same way, so I found that part especially absurd. While I don’t judge people for their choices to take PEDs, I felt RF was particularly irresponsible in his overall handling of this topic in his video, & seemed to have an arrogance behind him that reflects some insecurities he has. His aim seemed to be to further normalize & excuse recreational PED use, & even shame people for deciding to stay natty for reasons he doesn’t seem to actually understand. The decision to use PEDs should never be taken lightly as there are many real potential consequences, & the rewards and reasons for using them have to vastly outweigh the risks in order for it to be a risk worth taking. Unfortunately from what I’ve seen in most cases, the decision to use PEDs is based on little more than the ego’s desire to achieve a physique or level of strength very quickly that nobody but that individual really cares about, since how many people are actually professional bodybuilders or powerlifters…? Solid video brother! 👍
Huh? He didn't shame anyone for staying natty, he shamed cringe lords for believing they are somehow a better person for saying natty. Recreational PED use should absolutely be normalized, as long as people are aware of all the risks. Cigars, alcohol, drugs, gambling are all normalized and one could argue are worse than recreational PED use. With that being said, i'm also natty and am not planning on ever using gear. Am i also preping someone for my future gear use? Btw as long as we're doing assumptions, i would assume you are capping hard if you say you never considered PED use lol i know you're natty but i'm quite sure it's not for moral reasons.
@@cimi93x That was my personal takeaway from his video based on how I interpreted what he said & how it was said, so to clarify, what I said above is not necessarily fact, but rather my own opinion & interpretation of what he presented in his OG video a few weeks ago. I think what we’re talking about is the nuance. People have the right to make their own choices in terms of what path they want to pursue in life, which includes if they choose to smoke, drink alcohol, use PEDs, etc. I don’t compare any of them to one another as they are all individual silos that have their own inherent issues & risk vs reward profiles that should be taken into consideration if someone is considering using them. That doesn’t mean they should necessarily be completely normalized as PED use is also still illegal to my knowledge, & there are very real consequences that most people don’t fully understand before they begin using them, so I do agree on the importance of people being fully educated on the risks vs rewards before deciding to use them or not. My comment about RF prepping people for his likely future use of PED use applies only to him based on what I heard him say in his video & the way that he said it. I don’t necessarily apply that to others like yourself, as you’ve never said anything that would give me a reason to think that of you. There was a time when I first started exercising as a teenager where the thought briefly entered my mind of what it might be like to use steroids, which I attribute largely to what I saw in all the fitness & bodybuilding magazines at the time, but that thought passed very quickly as soon as I learned of all the danger & risks (and also saw the very tangible issues that can come from steroid use in guys in my school who used them). I also decided at a young age that I never wanted to use drugs of any kind, & that decision was mostly based on the health & quality of life issues as you said. PS: Really appreciate you having my back against that rather nasty cave troll last week. Hope to return the favor one day bro. 👍
@@cimi93x it is not normalized to drink alcohol or do drugs every day for 12 weeks straight, like a steroid cycle. Weed and cigarettes being abused everyday by some people is not an argument for normaizing PED, what the actual fuck man🤡Stoners are tolerated because they dont steal to fund their use or fuck up their life like they would have with smack or meth, cigarettes take almsot a lifetime to kill you and there's nothing wrong with having a cigar once in a while. Agree with what you say about shaming, but bro..
@@FitLabb that's precisely the point, you decided against PED use because of health risks. RF's point is that in a hypothetical situation in which there are zero health risks, almost every gym goer would take PEDs to some extent. There isn't a doubt in my mind that NH would take gear in that case, which means his choice isn't related to morality at all. Yet he's prancing around calling himself Noble Natty lol it's corny beyond measure. What about RF's video made you believe he is prepping his audience for his future gear use? Maybe i missed it but i don't think he said anything i didn't.
@@kariusbaktus165 see now you're changing the discussion by putting other variables in such as stealing money from others, which is inherently morally wrong. Let me ask you this: should it be normalized for a person with no kids to take PEDs recreationally using their own money?
Agreed. As a 50 year old in the discussion and one who knows several over 40 lifters, as soon as they hit the “age” they automatically want to jump on TRT under the guise of “anti-aging”. It’s becoming a crutch for many. If you medically need it then that is for you and your doctor to discuss. I think proper training, heavy lifting in particular, sex, diet, sleep, supplements like D3, magnesium, etc all go along way. They certainly do for me.
@Jo Jo it’s your decision, it makes no difference to me either way but if you’re over 40 with good test levels and the capacity to lift for 40 years and keep most of what you put on then ask yourself “why bother” not “why not”. I am stronger, bigger, and more athletic than guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. TRT is meant to give guys with low test, normal test levels. No one on gear keeps what they put on unless you’re on it for the rest of your life. Guys like Doucette for example.
@@brunoherrera2574 haha and I miss the part where I care what you think. Golden age bodybuilders were a lot healthier, christ they were actual athletes in the real sense. They didn’t abuse drugs like present day builders do and there were a lot less drugs to choose from. That’s why they’re still around today and living long lives. I think your mom is calling, your snack is ready…
Women tend to like a base-line of muscle, but this base-line can be surprisingly low. My wife has told me repeatedly that she doesn't want me doing any more arm work (not gonna happen) because my arms are getting too big. She thinks big arms look unrefined. My arms are not big, at least by lifting standards.
no women will like a guy more than another because the first guy has 2 more inches on his arms, only men think like that cuz we are always checking other guys to see if they are bigger than us.
Women desire a baseline of health in their mates. Health = better resource accumulation potential. As as needing to be "jakked" to get laid, my experience has told me otherwise. A solid vocabulary will probably serve you much better. Healthy, athletic with a well exercised mind and straight head on your shoulders is the winning formula for life and the ladies.
@@officialrohinmusic Dude, seriously, my arms aren't big. They are somewhat well defined, so sometimes people think they are big. I believe that most women have a much lower standard for what is considered muscular or fit.
Very good take! Honestly I think some people actually go out of their way to glorify natural bodybuilding to encourage more people to stay the course, because the reality is that it can definitely be a tough journey in the presence of social media and fake natties, or even people who claim they’re not glorifying the enhanced life when they clearly are. Giving the public the perception that being natural is the way to go, that there’s no natty limit, that you can achieve way more than most people think, I believe all of that is positive even if it’s slightly misleading. The funny thing is that those who are dissatisfied with their physique naturally probably won’t fix that with enhancements and in fact will make their image of themselves worse, and I’d imagine it would benefit the genetic freaks more than anyone else as it could take them to the next level. I think a huge driving force is people believing that having an impressive physique will grow them a huge following and tons of success when in reality, that happens to such a small amount of people. I like the whole “you’re a wizard” thing as the most successful people in the industry, natty or not, got their because of their brain and not their physique. Sure, a better physique can help, but information, entertainment, having a good personality is going to do the vast majority of the work. At the end of the day, the only people hopping on gear should be those who can’t be convinced otherwise, but it should absolutely be discouraged imo, even if some slight hyperbole is used to spare the impressionable youth
Disagree that you can achieve more than you think. For some it might be more thn they think for some it will be less. Most naturals at average height cant achieve a physique over 200lbs without becoming medically obese in the mid 20s % bodyfat range. Theyre lucky to look like they even lift in clothes. And thats coming from a natural. I am an an outlier to the point that guys who sell gear try to ask me if I need anything bc theyve got deals. I am definitely not what you think of when you hear the word natural lifter and I am happy to be blessed to where if I ever did want to take any PEDs I wouldnt even need much just to add I little bit extra to my physique and Id be happy. And thats after only 3 years of proper lifting Im also 21 but look 30. I feel bad for most naturals bc they think they can actually look like a semblance of someone who you'd call jacked but they never get anywhere close. Classic natty they start off real skinny and say 15% bodyfat at say 5'10 145 and gain 30lbs of muscle their entire career of lifting.
@@nickcollins9170 Most people dont know how to program, or even how to squat, I dont care about most people I care about what's possible, people like NH shows naturals with average genetics can get big it just takes patience and knowledge.
@@nickcollins9170 They can achieve more than they think, they just give up at the first sign of a hurdle and blame their genetics or say "I reached my natural limit". When you start thinking like that, it's already game over. You think you've completed the game. But you're playing a game like chess where you can keep learning and keep getting better, even if by 1%, it's still an improvement.
You’re niche sense of meme humor of the fitness community is my favorite thing about your channel. The intro made me laugh way too hard with the zoom in on the audience with different labels 😂
The peer pressure thing is big. I've been training naturally for a very long time, and a few years ago my best friend from the gym began hopping on cycles. When we stand side by side I look tiny. It's harder to talk training because he will tell me something that he claims works, but in the back of my head I'm always thinking that of course anything he does is going to work. Then in one of the worst periods in our friendship, he snuck into a natural bodybuilding competition because he didn't think he was big enough yet for the untested comps. It just felt like he was stealing that trophy from someone who really did do it naturally. But what bothers me a lot is he has half the training history as me, but is so much larger. I'm forever stuck at 15 inch arms. He has jumped to 16.5s and bigger everywhere. I plan to stay natural but if I was younger I may of succumbed to this. In my opinion, Revival Fitness is slowly starting to lose faith in the natty journey and he may very well decide to hop on something at some point.
Yeah man, that's awful, and I mean, let's be direct, he really *was* stealing that trophy. I understand when it's stuff like the Olympics, where most people are on gear, but when you have tested and untested competitions, to be like: "Well, I am taking gear, but hey I think I can get away with doing a natty show" is really bottom of the barrel stuff. I'm sure in other ways your friend is a good guy, bro, and it's sad to hear that your friendship was damaged, due to this issue. 15" arms are still something to be proud of, mate, and plenty of people can achieve 16" arms or more, naturally, so I think for sure, you've made the right choice in staying natural. I think your assessment of Revival Fitness is accurate.
@@Legacy-Talks keep at it bro. how long have you been training? i just got to 16 inch arms (though im 20% bf now). I was hardstuck at 15 inches but when I improved consistency and intensity, also nutrition, the gains came
@@Majora141 Yes but your dick does not shrink, in fact it may have the opposite effect (gaining girth through water retention and very high libido giving harder erections) guys also can keep their testes at a normal size by using HCG which mimics lutenizing hormone to stimulate the testicles and keep sperm production high.
@BigfootUnibrowMan that's not how it works? You need to learn how to elaborate and make a clear and concise argument. As opposed to just saying essentially "Nuh uhh". Does it "not work that way" when many PEDs have shrunken testicles as a side effect of usage
Personally I find that being natural is like an added challenge. It’s very possible to meet or exceed roider numbers considering most people don’t really know how to train regardless of their natty status. It’s more rewarding being able to bench 315 natty with no help from drugs at any point, even if it takes longer.
I've always thought NH was an smart guy, but when Geoff started talking in terms like: Wizard, Barbarian, "Int" and Constitution; I knew he was the true intellectual. Also, I find pretty funny how many guys who are roided to the gills always eats shit like "organic", "low X" and "grassfed" foods.
I agree that TRT isn't going to blow your gainz up. Anxiety & depression meds never helped me, but 140mg/wk reduced my anxiety, depression, improved sleep, easier to stay lean, and I do recover better. It doesn't lift the weight, drive me to the gym, nor does it slap the french fries out of my hand. It does make my pocket lighter & hurts the lipids a bit. Definitely everyone should put off TRT if they can, but for me it was a real quality of life saver.
@@YamanoRyuu totally agree. I was also born 6 weeks premature and very underweight. Probably should have just let me die. Maybe we should go ahead and let all the inferior people die once they start taking medicine, get in an accident, or need surgery? Would be very practicle and probably save a ton of money.
My last check I had an 820 ng/dl. I'm now 50. Been lifting consistently for the last four (less consistently for longer). I'm not jacked, but I think if you just keep yourself in shape, you can largely mitigate the age related test losses. I'm sure I'm an outlier with those levels, but still it shows they don't crater as you age. That said, if TRT cycles as you age are safe, make you look better and feel better, it would be really hard for me to be critical of going on. So the question is if those conditions are actually met by TRT, or whether it's hype.
Geoff, respect for this video. I am glad you have added your opinion and credence to remaining natural. I would never tell you what videos to make, but I was almost hoping you wouldn't wade in with this one. I did not assume your opinion or strategy prior to watching, but I felt that if someone tried to wade in with the "middle of the road" approach or tried to both sides the issue, that person would implicitly favor PEDs and their use, or at the very least contribute to their normalization. When you started the video with "I'm in the middle (*slightly to one side)" I indeed puckered a bit. I believe you actually meant that you intended to be objective on the issue, because the entirety of the video was indeed that... the facts of PED usage being detrimental, and their small pros to vast cons for 99% of lifters, cannot be argued with.
You are misapplying the adage. No glass house here, brother. You are free to mess yourself up, but you deserve to hear the facts. What you do is your choice. Influencers have a responsibility to their audience, and I think all that’s been said is appropriate.
@@cimi93x so should obesity be normalized too? or should we not encourage ppl to be the healthiest they can be? its not about shaming, its about positive encouragement.
@@maximustrolleus9860 nothing extreme should be normalized. Being morbidly obese shouldn't be normalized just as extreme gear use shouldn't. Being chubby/moderate gear use should.
@@cimi93x but should we not at least encourage ppl to be as healthy as they can be? like i agree we should shame or look down on them but at least encourage good behavior right?
I’ve met a lot of dudes geared out, and I’ve met a lot of the noble natties as well. I will say this, the geared guys were a lot more tolerable, the nobles I met were basically like the vegans of lifting.
I've found myself wanting to take steroids only when I was in an extremely bad place mentally. I honestly think going on a journey and finding out what you can carve out of your body naturally can mature you in many different areas of life, e.g. patience vs instant gratification. While I don't really care what other people do and don't think worse of them for taking "special sports supplements", I do think that younger people (me included back then) are extremely easy to influence since they don't have a strong sense of identity (simply due to them not being mature enough, not because they're bad people), which means that we need bigger transparency by all people. Steroids might look great but they come with a hefty dose of side effects, and people need to talk about all of the side effects before promoting them. Natural Hypertrophy made some very very good points in here, and thank you Geoffrey for this montage of their points, your thoughts are always appreciated. I've really become a huge fan of yours recently.
You really nailed this! RF is just as insecure as the regular gym goer who watches these videos. Although most regular gym people would not be keen on experimenting with PEDs unless they feel muscles are just as important as breathing in oxygen. Yeah for a old dude who has quit smoking for more than 15 years ago, RF makes it seem that men / women are so feeble and barely can live a principled and disciplined life. As the GOAT for marathoners, Eliud Kipchoge, said : No human is limited. Only people who are determined will not use shortcuts. Unless they are determined to use the shortcut by justifying it in their heads.
no. you are delusional. most polls on gym people show a shit ton of them have tried steroids before (upwards of half of the male gym population in sone of them). also, Ive never seen people *more* insecure than internet gym people. just look at any comment section
Although I agree that staying natty is the better choice, creating a "natty cult" and shaming enhanced people is pretty dumb. Especially the "you're never gonna be natty again and I judge you for it" thing. Although I agree with *what* you are saying (i.e. there is a certain "purity" in being a lifetime natty), I strongly disagree with *how* you said it, since it might just discourage people who (wrongly, imo) at some point became enhanced from letting go of the drugs. And plenty of young adults commit this mistake, due to peer pressure or social media. Please don't feed a natty vs enhanced divide in the fitness industry.
Biggest issue I have with steroids is those claiming natty and giving unrealistic expectations. Otherwise breaks down to different groups. -Hit genetic potential need drugs to get bigger -Lazy need drugs -40+ crowd quality of life is down need TRT -Would do drugs but risks scare me -Natty because risk to reward isn’t worth it -Natty because they live the ‘natural lifestyle’ Then some random mixes in there.
Part of the reason I flat out loathe social media - everything devolves into topics at face value only and creates unreasonable expectations (and a whole lot of personal insecurity). I feel sad for those that are inexperienced and have to sort through the garbage out there without realizing how it is affecting themselves. Perfection is an illusion.
That feeling where you have everything dialed in, you're on a nice little bulk and you're making progress. Feels good man. That's all you. Your mind for figuring it out and educating yourself, your willpower for sticking with the diet and training and your body for actually fucking do it. ...Or you could let daddy pharmaceutical intervention do it for you. People who jump on gear are the people who read the last page of the book first.
Not how its works, usually. You're giving a blanket statement to cover a small minority of PED users. Most people who i know who have hopped on PEDs are already well versed in training and diet, and have their shit dialed in natty or not. Nobody needs anybody else's high five for being natty. Thats sus.
@sheen d This is where context is very important. I agree with you if that same person is actually competing and pushing the boundaries of what’s physically possible. If it’s just some gym bro all they are doing is gratifying without delay. Discipline builds character.
Are you, "Noble Natty", a better person than your friend that takes PEDs? I don't know. Are you better as a natural than your non-natty self? I'll have to agree with NH: essentially in every single aspect, other than the physical.
YES!! I've been thinking of e-mailing you for your opinion on this debate! I side more with NH than RF personally, but I do admit that RF is a force for good with regards to his legendary video on Greg's "maingaining".
i'm 66 yrs old, had consistent low Test numbers. I suffered from depression and my training regimen was difficult to continue. So now I'm on HRT for the last 6 months. Workouts are better work capacity is as well and depression is not as extreme. It's a win for me.
So even though I have ZERO interest in any PEDs, I watched the whole thing. Very informative video to give the TL;DR on the -drama- content that prompted your video. I think the projection was the most astonishing for me (e.g. we're all shopping for sarms in a different tab). I mean, we all say stupid things sometimes because they sound great in our mind but once spoken we realize it was actually stupid. But when you record yourself, I'm assuming you hear yourself again when editing, how do you let statements like that get through?
That Freakie D mogging arc is gonna be brutal, I read the spoilers and Natural Hypertrophy ends up with a badass eyepatch after benching Revival’s squat
Well I've got a car analogy: A non-hormonal treatment/regimen is like a naturally aspirated engine, while introduction of hormonal treatments is like using a turbo to force more air into the engine to up the power. Of course turbo engines are a lot more powerful than N/A engines, but they don't last as long due to the higher stress. Better standards of design are also necessary so the engine doesn't blow up - just like how a hormone treatment regimen needs to be even more well balanced to manage health risks.
Personally, I stay natural because what I find consistently interesting about exercise is how you can get your body to change itself purely through the work you put in. Using drugs would be an interesting self-experiment in itself I suppose. But it would ruin the one I've been running for years now. And I want to see how this one ends
Your boob analogy was awesome, right on the money. I don't feel that either side is better or worse, but I think those that try to minimze the perceived risk, or worse yet, promote steroid use, are shitty people, fake natties being the worst, to me those guys are toxic to the fitness community and should be de-platformed if they aren't going to be transparent with their PED use. I don't really understand why someone would throw away their natty card though, why is muscle gain that important to you?
Alexander Bromley went off PED because he was trying to have kids and well, his PED use made that impossible for 5 years. Now he's a few months away from being a dad :)
I don't think PEDS should be something that one messes around with as a recreational lifter. When your 20s it sounds great until your in your 30s and don't lift anymore and you've screwed up your healthy. Priority changes.
Anyone who thinks or acts like their better than someone else for any reason, like maybe they have more money than other people, or, i dunno, that they're better than non-naturals just because they themselves haven't crossed that bridge (yet), is absolutely no better and needs to check themselves. And speaking as someone who was diagnosed by 3 different physicians with low t at the age of 32, test IS that good at building muscle. I had, in the dr's words, "t levels they expect to see in someone who's in their 60's". So yes, it is a real problem for men who are in their early 30's, and yes, it makes a noticeable difference in many facets of life, aside from weight training.
As with a lot of things, I also very much fall in the middle, mostly because issues such as these are pretty much never black and white. That being said, I’m not a fan of Revival’s arguments. He very much seems to be projecting/prepping subs for his eventual PED use. Who knows? Only time will tell there. But either way, I’m sure he’s encouraged certain subs to consider PED’s. NH won this debate, despite my being a bit more in the middle on the issue. PED use doesn’t automatically determine character, but there is nuance there.
Social media got these kids thinking that they CAN make a life from simply taking gear. They think they can take gear, get big, make some content and cruise on it. Reality is people can’t even make it on the content side of things cuz the industry is flooded with the same crap. Not to mention physiques that look better than the average person but not something a dedicated natural lifter couldn’t achieve.
For sure. A lot of this young, enhanced, aesthetic, techno, fuckboi content does very well in terms of clicks and likes and reach but in terms of converting to SALES it's almost certainly meh because it's mostly dumb teens watching. And usually eventually the audience wises up as they age so it's really a "get in and get out" type of business, PLUS these guys can't blast year round so that really does make this a short term thing.
The thing is not everyone's goal to be a bodybuilder, its certainly not mine. And i tbh i am proud what i ve achieved naturally and i like my progression.
I realise now that for RevivalFitness, who lives in L.A. with a bunch of roided out meatheads, and seeing those meatheads rise to the top of the fitness industry, he feels much more compelled to do it too. Fitness is no longer a single man's journey to discipline, health and greatness where he lives; it's a direct dick measuring competition, and also a success gauge, AND it's key to get there as fast as possible. Hollywood muscles. It's clearly toxic as fuck. The intention behind it was never to what I mentioned, it was always to be the biggest NOW, so demonising PEDs obviously goes against that, preaching the natural and long road goes against that, and that's no good for him.
That's a funny picture of Arnold at 16. Arnold started taking Dianabol when he was 15. He used to frighten the older lifters when Arnold would show up for his workout, take a handful of Dbol (when it was customary to take 2or 3 and wash them down with a jug of milk (spilling copious amounts on his sweatshirt) Then he would let out a large belch, laugh, and hit the iron all for the shock and amazement of his older workout buddies.
I've heard something about throwing stones in glass houses. Everyone has their vices, and it's best to just live and let live. Are you a better person if you never drink alcohol? Are you a better person if you never smoke weed? Are you a better person if you never.... We could do this for anything, or we could just say 'here are your pros and cons, make your own decisions'
Very correct in the term of making the decisions for yourself and dealing with the consequences. However, drinking alcohol is legal (if your the correct age) however in most countries weed and steroids are illegal to have and consume so I’d say being a criminal kind of leans on being a morally grey character. And paying drug dealers to acquire these things gives them more money to ruin others lives in the process.
A) law does not dictate morality. Legal slavery is not moral B) hope you don't buy anything made in China or eat anything grown with the help of exploited illegal immigrant labor with that logic
Young people only see results not enlarged organs. Have to take the wow that is cool factor. Remember the Flintstones advertising cigarettes and Joe Camel? Why do you think that was happening? Why do you think that isn’t legal now?
Honestly, nothing takes me out of an argument faster than when someone feels the need to go back to the "SJW bullshit" buzzword from like, the late 2010's.
Are you a better person if you return the shopping cart too the stand? Not inherently just from the one act. But it can serve as a good indicator that you are.
@@GVS true. In my mind what i see with our juicy bros is impatience, huge ego issues (not across the board but just in my experience) and a general lack of care for the long term results of their choices today. None of those are characteristics I see in people that I have a lot of respect for or view as "good" people. Thats what i mean. Impossible no. But i believe its much more probable that the natural person will have higher character
Good vid Geoffrey! My take is that this is such a stupid back and forth - I watched both the RE: vids and they were both so obsessive about fighting each other that they missed the point of what they were attempting to settle in the first place. Do PED's lower your life? Yes. Does that matter in the first place? That's subjective. Are you a worse or better person because of PED's? No. If you're using a drug as a metric of your value, you need to put more points into intelligence. Should you take them? Subjective and entirely dependent on your goals. But know that unless you get lucky, you'll never hit the big time and no amount of drugs changes that. Is MK's cultural influence clearly far different to many other cultures around the world? Yes. Does that skew his perception? Yes. Is NH's personal viewpoint idealistic more than it's realistic? Yes. Does that skew his perception? Yes. Should either of these people be making morality calls for the entirety of the fitness industry? Hell no. Should they take it upon themselves to be mindful of the mental wellbeing of their viewers? That's up to YOU, the viewer, to decide. I personally stopped watching both. They both just got on my nerves after the situation. It's back to geoffrey, sondre berg, hybrid calisthenics. People who I like for my own psyche and wellbeing. That's the decision we all should make as viewers.
did you know that statistically speaking, men that use PEDs tend to have more daughter than sons ? Now, that i know of, no causation has been studied yet, but it's an interesting thing nonetheless
If one is within reasonable distance of their natural peak physique or strength and they are fully aware of the consequences of hopping on the sauce, then it would be none of our business judging that person for making this decision as an adult. In the end, it all boils down to which path someone decides to go down in their own life. Personally, if I ever reached a point where I had a pretty good chance of becoming the best bodybuilder, or powerlifter, or strongman in the world (you name it), I would go on gear even though it would compromise my health. Ask yourself whether you would stay natural if you were Chris Bumstead, Eddie Hall, or Larry Wheels.
Leaving the PED discussion aside, why does everyone have a problem with people passing judgement? You can’t stop people from having an opinion. In every society people will judge each other for their behaviour. The phrase "Live and let live." doesn’t translate to „Don‘t you dare voice your opinion“. An adult person fully aware off the consequences could decide to cut off their perfectly healthy leg for aesthetic reasons. In my opinion that’s bat shit crazy and I'd advise everyone not to do that.
@@DoomCookie no problem with passing judgement, but some judgement has really stupid justification for it. pointing that out is as expected as the jusgement itaelf
I do pass judgement. I don't want society thrusting mentally ill drug addicts into the faces of our youth. People need to realize that the world is always watching, and no one can operate alone in society. Just because you didn't ask to be a role model doesn't mean no one is using you as one
I don't really think of this as a moral issue. A few years ago I was seriously debating whether I should try a cycle of something, but ultimately decided "I'm in my 30s, I have a wife and kids...what exactly would I be sacrificing my health for? To look a little more impressive (mostly just to other dudes)? So I decided against it and never looked back But for me at least, it was purely a pragmatic decision, not an ethical one. If I had made the other choice, I don't think I would have been ashamed of myself for trying it, but if I had experienced side effects, I would have been pissed at myself for risking so much for so little. For most people, using PEDs just doesn't make logical sense. But if they do it anyway, I'm not going to think of them as lesser in any way
"But if they do it anyway, I'm not going to think of them as lesser in any way" Nah bro I already think more of you as a husband and a father for thinking of your kids and choosing to stay natural. Yes, it has to be said that better choices make you a better person, no matter how much this hurts the feelings of steroid users.
I’m a boxer, and it’s similar to the arguments about whether a boxer should body-build. Everyone thinks they’re some elite boxer who must stay as small as possible and not touch weight. For most people, they will never be elite boxers, and body-building is beneficial in the long run. These ignorant social media boxers spread the non-sense to avoid weightlifting when most people should. Hmmm, maybe my statement isn’t as relevant as I thought.
lets be real, NH absolutely demolished him in the debate and we say guys like the Bold Omni Man breaking absolutely insane strength feats, so yeah RIP Revival
No he didnt, he kept retroactively changing his arguments and literally said you are a better person if you dont use steroids. He argues on the false premises that anyone who uses steroids abuses them and has a blatant superiority complex. Anyone who thinks he won the argument can think for themselves.
It would be interesting, if someone with low test, tested by a doctor, and then does the first thing like training and change habbit's, maybe do a sleep test, ( you should know how many people stop breathing while they're sleeping apnea without knowing) and then after these things got solved, tested again and see how the test is after a period. Such a study could potenitally give an idea of how much test gone up by doing so. If not then they need the TRT as a logical treatment I guess. But it would whipe out a lot of fud about low test at a specific age/habbits0
Why I lift? Self-improvement and health. Supraphysiological short cuts aren't in line my goals. Simple. (But I do recognize that others might have very different goals...)
Tiktok and youtube may have messed up with your attention span, they have mine! Although he is one of the few people I can easily watch an hour video of.
Revival fitness has put in the work and it seems like he’s struggling with the temptation of being jealous of seeing others doing the same or less work than himself, yet getting more visible results. Most trainees will not benefit from steroids because they train poorly. RF has been consistently training well and it appears that something/someone is whispering in his ear, “why not try ped’s? YOU, RF, can actually benefit from them because you already have developed the habit of training well.”
You say at the beginning of the vid that you're in the middle of both these guys views. Either that was the case or you were sitting on the fence. It became apparent getting into the vid that you were on the side of NH and used a passive aggressive approach towards Rival. That's fine and all good but have the balls to call him out straight, instead of casually sitting on the fence and tactfully picking your side in the way you did. Then again that would take balls.
@@user-vv1do1wg1j yeah agree buddy but as you mentioned the guy is still partial whilst playing the role of mediator, trying to sound neutral. Too transparent.
I find it just a tad strange that Revival Fitness hasn't left a comment on this video, despite his activity on videos that favour him or his viewpoint. As for me, I stay natural not just because I compete in a drug tested sport, but because I don't want to get far on borrowed strength. Because that's exactly what PEDs are. Borrowed strength.
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Geoffrey, is there a shipping to Poland?
@@wunnaflo7989 it's an ebook, it'll ship to the moon :)
28:43 This is exactly what I've been seeing as well. Not only did PED users invade a space that is by and large mostly constituted of naturals so that they could sell useless training programs/supplements, but they also now complain when we point out their tricks in an attempt to secede from their vampiric reign. The natural lifting community will not take it laying down any longer and they know it, their attempts at preventing us from rebuilding a healthy group identity and reclaiming our pride is proof of it. To me, their helpless anger is an encouragement to keep pushing anti-drugs messages until not one PED apologist remains. Noble Natties unite!
Lmfao
Inspiring
NH dropping facts
I mean this is kind of embarrassing lolol. Who the fuck cares? Like seriously. Get some emotional intelligence. Who cares what others do? Worry about yourself and move along
@@cimi93x based profile name. THC lifters rise up
Me, a Noble Natty: 👀👀👀
This will be a good watch
King omni has entered the chat 🔥👌🏻
Dude you are a monster. God damn
The crusade to rid the world of unnaturals it is in fact a just cause,therefor we are noble Nattys fellow struggler.
Natty tendons are stronger
Really is so disrespectful for Revival to assume that all natties secretely want to hop on roids. So much strawmanning and projection of insecurities. But good to see that the natty community is strong enough to stand united against it. Long live natty YT!
Yeah, I don't subscribe to NH or revival, but I've seen good videos from both. I didn't go into this with a side, but some of the things Revival was saying just seemed like pure projection. Why is he assuming people are watching his videos with SARMs websites up on their browsers?
It's simple logic. You train to pack on as much muscle as possible. If hypothetically PEDs didn't have any bad side effects what exactly would be stopping you from taking them?
@@cimi93x The fact you have to rely on drugs to keep the muscle, and the fact that it isn’t you that has earned that muscle, it’s you taking a drug to do it the easy way. 90 percent of lifting is the journey, the knowledge that you have earned every single muscle fibre through hard work and discipline, that will give a satisfaction that you cannot get from simply having a more muscular physique through taking drugs.
I also don’t want to pinning needles in my ass every day
@@joebloggs6922 yes because adding muscle with PEDs is not a journey, PED users take the stuff and the next day they are 50lbs of muscle heavier lol There are oral steroids, and taking low dosages means that you can keep most of the mass you gained on trt dosages. Training naturally you are bound to reach a point at which you simply cannot add more muscle. So tell me why wouldn't you pop a pill twice a week to add more?
@@joebloggs6922 Wow you really think you just magically grow muscle when you take steroids? You have no idea how they work lol
I started going to the gym in 2014 with my best friend. Two gym buddies on the grind together. He jumped on PEDs in 2016. Until that point we were fairly even (I was bigger, better genetics)... Literally 2 months later he was blitzing me in size and strength. I hated going with him because I couldn't keep up at all with the exercises. Stopped training with him and started my own journey alone. The year is now 2022. I stayed at it and chipped away day by day myself. He stopped the PEDs and doesn't train much at all now. I blitz him today. Not even close in terms of physiques. Consistent Nattys will always win in the medium to long term. #NobleNatties
Have seen that a lot. Maybe they'll surpass you in the "few months to a few years" timescale, but in 5 years? Hard to say. In 10-20? Usually staying natural actually wins in health AND size.
It's crazy how effective they can be in the short term. He lost significant size and strength once he stopped the PEDs. It's very easy to see why people get addicted and can't stop. Without TRT or HRT you are pretty much back to square one once you stop.
Same thing happened to me way back when I was in my 20s except my friend died about 2 years later.
@@allenroy9250 damn thats rough, what happened?
@@Mrraerae It was in the 80s , lm 60 now so you can check out how I'm doing now as a life time Natty. Just press on my profile there.
So I was training with this kid. He was very quiet, meek . I was a pretty strong squatter then so we would do squats together. Within about 2 months he was out squatting me by allot . So I just looked at him...Ok what are you talking?, and he came clean almost embarrassed like.
Anyway he blew up really fkn fast.
He went from this pale wiry kid to this absolute monster . His personality totally changed into this
Ultra extrovert. He ended up becoming probably strongest guy in the gym and winning in bodybuilding. Everyone loved him but people and his parents were worried about him. He apparently was on allot of stuff.
But it was a short meteoric rise.
He got sick . They said it was a tumor in his head brought on by HGH usage. His final days were rough in the hospital. I didn't go see him there but friends that did say he was a horrible sight.
We all went to his funeral. It was very sad . Especially seeing his parents.
This story may seem like Hyperbole but every word is true.
I guess it's better to be a natty knight, than a fake natty. Both are better than retroactive fake natties.
What is retroactive fake natty?
@@brunoherrera2574 someone who lies about the time they started taking PEDs or the dosages they are taking
Better to be a Natty knight rather than a Drive Knight right Zhoniin?
sup sup zho
Roronoa zoro and kamazo the manslayer are the natty kings
You are not somewhere in between. You are 100% where you should be and you can take pride in that
One of the smartest things, Philion ever said: "the only people that care about your muscles are other dudes"
Yup, definitely a truth.
100% girls only really care about shape , which you can do naturally
Girls that also workout care
@@aidaninsua they care that you workout and that you look fit. They don't care how big your muscles are or how much you've gained.
Maybe a very small percentage that is really into bodybuilding
its over i guess
Great video. One point around natural limits to muscle size/mass is that they exist for a very good reason - the body does not want more muscle at a given point of time as it cannot support the increased muscle mass without sacrificing health of connective tissue, heart health etc. None of the influencers who take gear actually explicitly state this point. Going past the natural limits once they have been reached is likely to be counter-productive to health and longevity.
Very good point, show me a 300lb mass monster (who stayed that heavy for a long time) living to 70+. Just doesn't happen.
Exactly this mate, they are overweight, not in fat as you think of overweight but in muscle, Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates were morbidly obese in muscle
@@GVS Given the prevalent use of steroids (and similar class of substances), perhaps it's time to re-think obesity as the condition where the body is carrying excess tissue - fat or muscle. If it's harmful for the body to carry excess fat, how is it OK for the body to carry excess muscle?
@@SimonNissen94 whole-heartedly agree
@@SriranjanSeshadri fat and muscle are still wildly different tissues...so no, it wouldn't make sense to do that. Not many people are getting to where the muscle alone is impacting health, usually it's the drugs themselves.
One point revival made that I didn’t like was the one about ‘earning your stripes’ before hopping on cycle, I see a lot of people acting like the first 5 years of lifting are something to trudge through before you get to earn the right to use peds. The way I see it if you’ve been doing well for 5 years naturally there’s no reason to start using drugs, just carry on.
As for the overall argument I think morality is too complex of a subject to be based on this single decision, there’s more important things that would make me consider someone to be a good person than whether or not they chose to use peds.
If you've been doing well for 5 years and yet you still want to "break through", then imo you need to reassess why the hell you're actually lifting in the first place. Do the majority of PED users ACTUALLY want to compete against Cbum? This is where it really gets me. What the fuck are the goals of some of these folks anyway? Personally, I think it's because folks like MK actually genuinely believe that they'll miss out on an entire piece of fitness culture if they don't take PED's and the fear of plateauing in other areas of life scares the shit out of them. The sad part is that you know what the solution to that is. It's to be part of creating a fitness culture that doesn't take PED's. Should we do it like NH, with ego and pride? Imo, no. But at least he's doing something to contribute to a community that's more self-aware of natural limitations and accepts them.
I understand this very well. Combine gains that are getting so slow that they are barely visible with the instant gratification era of social media.
If I trained for bodybuilding purposes only, it would get so boring for me personally that I would hop on gear. Instead, I train for powerlifting. PL keeps training constantly interesting for me mainly due to the discretely measurable increases/strength gains.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 it entirely depends on your goals dude, what gets me is people who take it despite perfectly obtainable goals without it.
For example, I want to do elite calisthenics. Not compete or anything just do calisthenics at a high level. I don't need PED's for that, so there's no use taking them. 99% of people have goals that are obtainable without PED's, yet they do anyway.
A lot of ped users wont be where they are, they take the finacial opportunities of natural trainers who work harder and smarter.in a fair world where merit should be rewarded mediocrity and cheating is being rewarded with money fame and following. Aside from health thats a serious moral implication
@Vanyel_etc see but I think exactly the same way. Even if I did go on peds I'm not beating people in bodybuilding nor powerlifting at the top level anyways. Health issues, cost of the drugs, pretty much high chance to die early and for what? To be yoked like hulk in my 20s? Not worth it for most people
Better person, probably not depending on how you think of yourself. However I’m staying natty for life as I have a child and a wife that need me to be there for them for a long time. So I’d say yes, for me, staying natty makes me a better person as I’m sacrificing potential gains for longevity and health reasons in contrast to shaving years off my life to look good for other men. 🤷🏻♂️
bro you have the physique of a Greek god
Thank you kindly sir, must be all those trenboloney sandwiches 😉🤭
I disagree with you feeling like you're a better person for being natural, you're not. But, I massively respect your decision to not use anything due to having a child, much respect for that. As a father myself, I relate and also don't use peds for the same reason.
@@DDB-91 it might not make me a better person morally than someone else as it’s an individuals life to make sure they do what’s right for them, however, it makes me a better version of the person I would be if I was to go down the dark road of taking PEDs for selfish gains. I choose to be better than that version so I can live long enough to make sure I can guide my children down the right path and make sure they are financially set for life. If anything was to happen to me due to being selfish for my own gain then that would very much make me a bad person for leaving them without the help they needed just so I could put on a few lbs of muscle for other people to admire my physical appearance. As a father yourself I’m sure you feel the exact same way, stay safe bother 👌🏻
I just commented and now realize I said basically the exact same thing you did. I agree 100%
Damnit Geoff you got me grinning like a moron everytime with those tennis edits. I had a good time and love your content and how fair and neutral you are. Cheers Bud.
This video aged like a fine wine. Fitness influencers are dropping dead and of course the first thing people are saying is ‘RIP what a freak accident. He was gone too soon. It’s too bad his genetics sucked giving him that disease.’ Meanwhile the guy spent the last 10 years of his life blasting PEDs like he’s trying to jump to mars.
joe's death had nothing to do with his PED use, no peds bodybuilders use cause blood clots and strokes
he was vaccinated like 4 times though....... and one of those shots have been taken off of the shelf...........
also man, Joe had top 0.0001% genetics and was natty for a long time, he had world class potential.
hes not comparable to the SARM goblins and fake natty influencers.
I’m basically total alignment with NH on this one. It’s not about being better intrinsically, it’s making a clearly superior choice where health and sustainability reign supreme. Unless you’re in that top .1% or whatever naturally there’s just no sound argument to use PEDs, you do what you want but people need to be informed of the risk/reward ratio to be able to make a real choice.
That’s true, if you look like dog shit without the roids 9/10 times you’ll still look like shit abusing them but you’ll have more mass for sure. To be an elite bodybuilder you kind of know at a young age you’ve got what it takes
low IQ will always lose to high IQ
Agree.👍🏻
Just because something is better for your health doesn’t make you a virtuous person. Also another thing people don’t put into context is that just like any drug dosage plays a big role in how safe a drug is. It’s not to say steroids don’t have their dangers, but most moderate steroids users live pretty typical lives. People cherry-pick the mass monsters that drop dead 30, and extrapolate to all steroid users. That would be like using alcoholics to argue against the consumption of alcohol. When most adults drink alcohol socially.
HEALTH & Fitness, right? Why would anyone sacrifice the first virtue of the quest? Average dudes hopping on PEDs is just insanely short sighted.
On the "taking steroids to get women" point, if you're that short on women that you're willing to take steroids to improve your chances of getting them, the problem is 100% not how muscular you are and a non-drug solution is going to be the answer.
If people had to be jacked to get laid there wouldn't be 7 billion plus of us on planet earth.
Damn that must suck if people do that
dating is almost prohibited to normal people nowadays
In my college, the guy who got laid the most was skinny and balding, but he knew how to talk well.
@@dariusiii2922 It always has been
I like Revival Fitness' content for the most part, but I am honestly a little bit disgusted that he tried using John Meadows' name to shame NH. Also, basing the argument around morality is a massive misdirection that doesn't add anything of value. Like sure, it's debatable whether there is a morality aspect to taking drugs for aesthetic/strength benefits, and even if we were to conclude there isn't (which I disagree with), then it still doesn't give the green light for widespread use/acceptance (which is something that RF hoped for - his audience going "oh yeah bro, we'd be cool with it if you or anyone hopped on"). So it's best to disregard the morality aspect entirely - and just to agree that the negatives outweigh the positives, from a rational pov. And to touch on the mental health aspect - Geoff raised a great point - "why do you so desperately need more muscle?" - most answers would not justify the means and drug use in those cases would most likely exacerbate the problem (body dysmorphia, unfulfilling life etc). So yeah, Noble Natties unite.
Everyone who is serious about lifting desperately needs more muscle, including Geoff. Otherwise he could just train once a week, stagnate, and keep his gains. Not saying he wants to look like a pro bodybuilder but i'm sure most natties would like to go beyond their natty limit
@@cimi93x Ask Mr. Thanos, "What does it cost?"
@@cimi93x Imo, there's no such thing as a natty limit, yes, gains will slow down to the point where it's hardly noticeable anymore, but then natties can focus on chasing strength standards, like Geoff is doing. There's no reason to stagnate, just keep finding new lifts that you enjoy and progress on them. Or branch out to other sports where your big ass muscles will be an advantage. There's a lot to explore and enjoy before reaching a point where you need to rely on a needle and CPAP to keep you alive. And most natties will never reach that point.
@thc & ohp, grass & mass, mary jane & muscle gain why go past the natty limit when most of the time people aren't competing?
@@jordanwilliams2701 why do anything if you don't go pro? probably because they enjoy it
From what i see in the comments, people are reading "better" in a moral context. NH has clearly stated natties are NOT morally superior, but better in other subjects, such as health and longevity. In his opinion, all but the physical.
Agree, I should have made it more clear that the argument was never about morals. It's about logic and decisions from a practical standpoint.
When you title your video "yes you are a better person" I don't know what you expect people to think. If he just meant healthier, he could say that frankly
Live by the clickbait, die by the clickbait
@@GVS Please tag this comment at the very top. Because that is what was NH's main point. This is what everyone must focus on. It's more about health and longevity than about morality.
@@AP-qu2li you have a fair point, but i will say it was contextually correct as a direct opposition to Revival's title (you are not better as a natty, or something). It's the nature of the beast i guess, welcome to youtube haha
@@josephstalin9167 already have the usual pinned comment on top linking to my book, it's how I support myself without ads.
Agree, Revival was 100% projecting his own feelings & intentions in his video & very likely prepping us for the future news that he’s planning to use PEDs. I’ve never had any desire to use PEDs, & most naturals I know feel the same way, so I found that part especially absurd.
While I don’t judge people for their choices to take PEDs, I felt RF was particularly irresponsible in his overall handling of this topic in his video, & seemed to have an arrogance behind him that reflects some insecurities he has. His aim seemed to be to further normalize & excuse recreational PED use, & even shame people for deciding to stay natty for reasons he doesn’t seem to actually understand.
The decision to use PEDs should never be taken lightly as there are many real potential consequences, & the rewards and reasons for using them have to vastly outweigh the risks in order for it to be a risk worth taking. Unfortunately from what I’ve seen in most cases, the decision to use PEDs is based on little more than the ego’s desire to achieve a physique or level of strength very quickly that nobody but that individual really cares about, since how many people are actually professional bodybuilders or powerlifters…?
Solid video brother! 👍
Huh? He didn't shame anyone for staying natty, he shamed cringe lords for believing they are somehow a better person for saying natty. Recreational PED use should absolutely be normalized, as long as people are aware of all the risks. Cigars, alcohol, drugs, gambling are all normalized and one could argue are worse than recreational PED use. With that being said, i'm also natty and am not planning on ever using gear. Am i also preping someone for my future gear use? Btw as long as we're doing assumptions, i would assume you are capping hard if you say you never considered PED use lol i know you're natty but i'm quite sure it's not for moral reasons.
@@cimi93x That was my personal takeaway from his video based on how I interpreted what he said & how it was said, so to clarify, what I said above is not necessarily fact, but rather my own opinion & interpretation of what he presented in his OG video a few weeks ago.
I think what we’re talking about is the nuance. People have the right to make their own choices in terms of what path they want to pursue in life, which includes if they choose to smoke, drink alcohol, use PEDs, etc. I don’t compare any of them to one another as they are all individual silos that have their own inherent issues & risk vs reward profiles that should be taken into consideration if someone is considering using them. That doesn’t mean they should necessarily be completely normalized as PED use is also still illegal to my knowledge, & there are very real consequences that most people don’t fully understand before they begin using them, so I do agree on the importance of people being fully educated on the risks vs rewards before deciding to use them or not.
My comment about RF prepping people for his likely future use of PED use applies only to him based on what I heard him say in his video & the way that he said it. I don’t necessarily apply that to others like yourself, as you’ve never said anything that would give me a reason to think that of you.
There was a time when I first started exercising as a teenager where the thought briefly entered my mind of what it might be like to use steroids, which I attribute largely to what I saw in all the fitness & bodybuilding magazines at the time, but that thought passed very quickly as soon as I learned of all the danger & risks (and also saw the very tangible issues that can come from steroid use in guys in my school who used them). I also decided at a young age that I never wanted to use drugs of any kind, & that decision was mostly based on the health & quality of life issues as you said.
PS: Really appreciate you having my back against that rather nasty cave troll last week. Hope to return the favor one day bro. 👍
@@cimi93x it is not normalized to drink alcohol or do drugs every day for 12 weeks straight, like a steroid cycle. Weed and cigarettes being abused everyday by some people is not an argument for normaizing PED, what the actual fuck man🤡Stoners are tolerated because they dont steal to fund their use or fuck up their life like they would have with smack or meth, cigarettes take almsot a lifetime to kill you and there's nothing wrong with having a cigar once in a while.
Agree with what you say about shaming, but bro..
@@FitLabb that's precisely the point, you decided against PED use because of health risks. RF's point is that in a hypothetical situation in which there are zero health risks, almost every gym goer would take PEDs to some extent. There isn't a doubt in my mind that NH would take gear in that case, which means his choice isn't related to morality at all. Yet he's prancing around calling himself Noble Natty lol it's corny beyond measure. What about RF's video made you believe he is prepping his audience for his future gear use? Maybe i missed it but i don't think he said anything i didn't.
@@kariusbaktus165 see now you're changing the discussion by putting other variables in such as stealing money from others, which is inherently morally wrong. Let me ask you this: should it be normalized for a person with no kids to take PEDs recreationally using their own money?
Agreed. As a 50 year old in the discussion and one who knows several over 40 lifters, as soon as they hit the “age” they automatically want to jump on TRT under the guise of “anti-aging”. It’s becoming a crutch for many. If you medically need it then that is for you and your doctor to discuss. I think proper training, heavy lifting in particular, sex, diet, sleep, supplements like D3, magnesium, etc all go along way. They certainly do for me.
The long game is always the healthier choice and yes you can build a big strong physique with years of quality training. It has worked for me.
@Jo Jo it’s your decision, it makes no difference to me either way but if you’re over 40 with good test levels and the capacity to lift for 40 years and keep most of what you put on then ask yourself “why bother” not “why not”. I am stronger, bigger, and more athletic than guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. TRT is meant to give guys with low test, normal test levels. No one on gear keeps what they put on unless you’re on it for the rest of your life. Guys like Doucette for example.
@@safathletics "long game" "healthier" I miss the part where Arnold Schwarzenegger is dead or not healthy.
@@brunoherrera2574 haha and I miss the part where I care what you think. Golden age bodybuilders were a lot healthier, christ they were actual athletes in the real sense. They didn’t abuse drugs like present day builders do and there were a lot less drugs to choose from. That’s why they’re still around today and living long lives. I think your mom is calling, your snack is ready…
@@brunoherrera2574 Arnold have the best doctors to take care of him during his old age.
Women tend to like a base-line of muscle, but this base-line can be surprisingly low. My wife has told me repeatedly that she doesn't want me doing any more arm work (not gonna happen) because my arms are getting too big. She thinks big arms look unrefined. My arms are not big, at least by lifting standards.
If anyone tells you that you’re getting “too muscular”, it’s a good sign you’re doing something right haha
no women will like a guy more than another because the first guy has 2 more inches on his arms, only men think like that cuz we are always checking other guys to see if they are bigger than us.
Women desire a baseline of health in their mates. Health = better resource accumulation potential. As as needing to be "jakked" to get laid, my experience has told me otherwise. A solid vocabulary will probably serve you much better. Healthy, athletic with a well exercised mind and straight head on your shoulders is the winning formula for life and the ladies.
@@officialrohinmusic Dude, seriously, my arms aren't big. They are somewhat well defined, so sometimes people think they are big. I believe that most women have a much lower standard for what is considered muscular or fit.
@@trevbarlow9719what do your arms measure?
You have a great sense of humor. I absolutely love the way you structured the video with the back and forth tennis matches.
Very good take! Honestly I think some people actually go out of their way to glorify natural bodybuilding to encourage more people to stay the course, because the reality is that it can definitely be a tough journey in the presence of social media and fake natties, or even people who claim they’re not glorifying the enhanced life when they clearly are. Giving the public the perception that being natural is the way to go, that there’s no natty limit, that you can achieve way more than most people think, I believe all of that is positive even if it’s slightly misleading. The funny thing is that those who are dissatisfied with their physique naturally probably won’t fix that with enhancements and in fact will make their image of themselves worse, and I’d imagine it would benefit the genetic freaks more than anyone else as it could take them to the next level. I think a huge driving force is people believing that having an impressive physique will grow them a huge following and tons of success when in reality, that happens to such a small amount of people. I like the whole “you’re a wizard” thing as the most successful people in the industry, natty or not, got their because of their brain and not their physique. Sure, a better physique can help, but information, entertainment, having a good personality is going to do the vast majority of the work. At the end of the day, the only people hopping on gear should be those who can’t be convinced otherwise, but it should absolutely be discouraged imo, even if some slight hyperbole is used to spare the impressionable youth
Disagree that you can achieve more than you think. For some it might be more thn they think for some it will be less. Most naturals at average height cant achieve a physique over 200lbs without becoming medically obese in the mid 20s % bodyfat range. Theyre lucky to look like they even lift in clothes. And thats coming from a natural. I am an an outlier to the point that guys who sell gear try to ask me if I need anything bc theyve got deals. I am definitely not what you think of when you hear the word natural lifter and I am happy to be blessed to where if I ever did want to take any PEDs I wouldnt even need much just to add I little bit extra to my physique and Id be happy. And thats after only 3 years of proper lifting Im also 21 but look 30. I feel bad for most naturals bc they think they can actually look like a semblance of someone who you'd call jacked but they never get anywhere close. Classic natty they start off real skinny and say 15% bodyfat at say 5'10 145 and gain 30lbs of muscle their entire career of lifting.
@@nickcollins9170 Most people dont know how to program, or even how to squat, I dont care about most people I care about what's possible, people like NH shows naturals with average genetics can get big it just takes patience and knowledge.
@@nickcollins9170 They can achieve more than they think, they just give up at the first sign of a hurdle and blame their genetics or say "I reached my natural limit". When you start thinking like that, it's already game over. You think you've completed the game. But you're playing a game like chess where you can keep learning and keep getting better, even if by 1%, it's still an improvement.
We can all agree Geoff is the funniest natty
Yes
The ONLY funny natty. Most others have the personality of a wooden plank.
NH is unintentionally comedy gold to me
@@Fatfrogsrock same. Just go and look at the comment he unironically posted here.
@@cimi93x or take themselves waaayy too seriously
You’re niche sense of meme humor of the fitness community is my favorite thing about your channel. The intro made me laugh way too hard with the zoom in on the audience with different labels 😂
The peer pressure thing is big. I've been training naturally for a very long time, and a few years ago my best friend from the gym began hopping on cycles. When we stand side by side I look tiny. It's harder to talk training because he will tell me something that he claims works, but in the back of my head I'm always thinking that of course anything he does is going to work. Then in one of the worst periods in our friendship, he snuck into a natural bodybuilding competition because he didn't think he was big enough yet for the untested comps. It just felt like he was stealing that trophy from someone who really did do it naturally. But what bothers me a lot is he has half the training history as me, but is so much larger. I'm forever stuck at 15 inch arms. He has jumped to 16.5s and bigger everywhere. I plan to stay natural but if I was younger I may of succumbed to this. In my opinion, Revival Fitness is slowly starting to lose faith in the natty journey and he may very well decide to hop on something at some point.
Yeah man, that's awful, and I mean, let's be direct, he really *was* stealing that trophy. I understand when it's stuff like the Olympics, where most people are on gear, but when you have tested and untested competitions, to be like: "Well, I am taking gear, but hey I think I can get away with doing a natty show" is really bottom of the barrel stuff. I'm sure in other ways your friend is a good guy, bro, and it's sad to hear that your friendship was damaged, due to this issue. 15" arms are still something to be proud of, mate, and plenty of people can achieve 16" arms or more, naturally, so I think for sure, you've made the right choice in staying natural. I think your assessment of Revival Fitness is accurate.
Stuck at 15? You have some pencil pusher nerd genetics then. I got 15 and only been training 14 months.
@@geodude6244 Yeah i do. I started at 10 inch arms. Congrats on your progress though you've got a lot of potential it sounds.
@@Legacy-Talks keep at it bro. how long have you been training? i just got to 16 inch arms (though im 20% bf now). I was hardstuck at 15 inches but when I improved consistency and intensity, also nutrition, the gains came
Nattycel
I black pilled myself about steroids and PED use because I was scared about my junk getting smaller. Cant take that risk.
That's not how it works but okay
@@BigfootUnibrowMan your testicles shrink when you take exogenous hormones this is a fact, however then can return to normal size after a PCT.
@@Majora141 Yes but your dick does not shrink, in fact it may have the opposite effect (gaining girth through water retention and very high libido giving harder erections) guys also can keep their testes at a normal size by using HCG which mimics lutenizing hormone to stimulate the testicles and keep sperm production high.
@@BigfootUnibrowMan definetely decreases size of balls. Not penis
@BigfootUnibrowMan that's not how it works? You need to learn how to elaborate and make a clear and concise argument. As opposed to just saying essentially "Nuh uhh".
Does it "not work that way" when many PEDs have shrunken testicles as a side effect of usage
Personally I find that being natural is like an added challenge. It’s very possible to meet or exceed roider numbers considering most people don’t really know how to train regardless of their natty status. It’s more rewarding being able to bench 315 natty with no help from drugs at any point, even if it takes longer.
I've always thought NH was an smart guy, but when Geoff started talking in terms like: Wizard, Barbarian, "Int" and Constitution; I knew he was the true intellectual.
Also, I find pretty funny how many guys who are roided to the gills always eats shit like "organic", "low X" and "grassfed" foods.
They do it because they're scared for their health. They're trying to offset some of the health burden from the roids
I agree that TRT isn't going to blow your gainz up. Anxiety & depression meds never helped me, but 140mg/wk reduced my anxiety, depression, improved sleep, easier to stay lean, and I do recover better. It doesn't lift the weight, drive me to the gym, nor does it slap the french fries out of my hand. It does make my pocket lighter & hurts the lipids a bit. Definitely everyone should put off TRT if they can, but for me it was a real quality of life saver.
According to natural hypertrophy your a bad person
@@andydoan4592 I also forget to take out the trash. 😭
How old are you may I ask?
Those who need drugs or pills to live are inferior.
@@YamanoRyuu totally agree. I was also born 6 weeks premature and very underweight. Probably should have just let me die. Maybe we should go ahead and let all the inferior people die once they start taking medicine, get in an accident, or need surgery? Would be very practicle and probably save a ton of money.
My last check I had an 820 ng/dl. I'm now 50. Been lifting consistently for the last four (less consistently for longer). I'm not jacked, but I think if you just keep yourself in shape, you can largely mitigate the age related test losses. I'm sure I'm an outlier with those levels, but still it shows they don't crater as you age.
That said, if TRT cycles as you age are safe, make you look better and feel better, it would be really hard for me to be critical of going on. So the question is if those conditions are actually met by TRT, or whether it's hype.
Geoff, respect for this video. I am glad you have added your opinion and credence to remaining natural. I would never tell you what videos to make, but I was almost hoping you wouldn't wade in with this one. I did not assume your opinion or strategy prior to watching, but I felt that if someone tried to wade in with the "middle of the road" approach or tried to both sides the issue, that person would implicitly favor PEDs and their use, or at the very least contribute to their normalization. When you started the video with "I'm in the middle (*slightly to one side)" I indeed puckered a bit. I believe you actually meant that you intended to be objective on the issue, because the entirety of the video was indeed that... the facts of PED usage being detrimental, and their small pros to vast cons for 99% of lifters, cannot be argued with.
Choosing what to do with your body should be normalized. End of story. Stop throwing rocks from glass houses.
You are misapplying the adage. No glass house here, brother. You are free to mess yourself up, but you deserve to hear the facts. What you do is your choice. Influencers have a responsibility to their audience, and I think all that’s been said is appropriate.
@@cimi93x so should obesity be normalized too? or should we not encourage ppl to be the healthiest they can be? its not about shaming, its about positive encouragement.
@@maximustrolleus9860 nothing extreme should be normalized. Being morbidly obese shouldn't be normalized just as extreme gear use shouldn't. Being chubby/moderate gear use should.
@@cimi93x but should we not at least encourage ppl to be as healthy as they can be? like i agree we should shame or look down on them but at least encourage good behavior right?
The edits were absolutely hilarious and fantastic.
I’ve met a lot of dudes geared out, and I’ve met a lot of the noble natties as well. I will say this, the geared guys were a lot more tolerable, the nobles I met were basically like the vegans of lifting.
I've found myself wanting to take steroids only when I was in an extremely bad place mentally. I honestly think going on a journey and finding out what you can carve out of your body naturally can mature you in many different areas of life, e.g. patience vs instant gratification. While I don't really care what other people do and don't think worse of them for taking "special sports supplements", I do think that younger people (me included back then) are extremely easy to influence since they don't have a strong sense of identity (simply due to them not being mature enough, not because they're bad people), which means that we need bigger transparency by all people. Steroids might look great but they come with a hefty dose of side effects, and people need to talk about all of the side effects before promoting them. Natural Hypertrophy made some very very good points in here, and thank you Geoffrey for this montage of their points, your thoughts are always appreciated. I've really become a huge fan of yours recently.
You really nailed this! RF is just as insecure as the regular gym goer who watches these videos. Although most regular gym people would not be keen on experimenting with PEDs unless they feel muscles are just as important as breathing in oxygen.
Yeah for a old dude who has quit smoking for more than 15 years ago, RF makes it seem that men / women are so feeble and barely can live a principled and disciplined life. As the GOAT for marathoners, Eliud Kipchoge, said : No human is limited. Only people who are determined will not use shortcuts. Unless they are determined to use the shortcut by justifying it in their heads.
no. you are delusional. most polls on gym people show a shit ton of them have tried steroids before (upwards of half of the male gym population in sone of them). also, Ive never seen people *more* insecure than internet gym people. just look at any comment section
Thx Geoff for chiming in, I knew you would make sense of all this
Although I agree that staying natty is the better choice, creating a "natty cult" and shaming enhanced people is pretty dumb. Especially the "you're never gonna be natty again and I judge you for it" thing. Although I agree with *what* you are saying (i.e. there is a certain "purity" in being a lifetime natty), I strongly disagree with *how* you said it, since it might just discourage people who (wrongly, imo) at some point became enhanced from letting go of the drugs. And plenty of young adults commit this mistake, due to peer pressure or social media. Please don't feed a natty vs enhanced divide in the fitness industry.
I believe drug use should be discouraged, although I do agree that once someone decides to quit it should be grandly applauded
Uhh dude but he's right. Once you use the peds you aren't natty anymore and never will be.
Biggest issue I have with steroids is those claiming natty and giving unrealistic expectations.
Otherwise breaks down to different groups.
-Hit genetic potential need drugs to get bigger
-Lazy need drugs
-40+ crowd quality of life is down need TRT
-Would do drugs but risks scare me
-Natty because risk to reward isn’t worth it
-Natty because they live the ‘natural lifestyle’
Then some random mixes in there.
Part of the reason I flat out loathe social media - everything devolves into topics at face value only and creates unreasonable expectations (and a whole lot of personal insecurity). I feel sad for those that are inexperienced and have to sort through the garbage out there without realizing how it is affecting themselves. Perfection is an illusion.
Hatch green chili raises T by 20%
D&D references?
NEEEEEERD!
I would shame you more for it, but I have to prep my GURPs roleplaying session for this weekend. Carry on.
I really liked that clash because it does raise some good points about this natty vs enhanced
That feeling where you have everything dialed in, you're on a nice little bulk and you're making progress. Feels good man. That's all you. Your mind for figuring it out and educating yourself, your willpower for sticking with the diet and training and your body for actually fucking do it.
...Or you could let daddy pharmaceutical intervention do it for you.
People who jump on gear are the people who read the last page of the book first.
Not how its works, usually. You're giving a blanket statement to cover a small minority of PED users. Most people who i know who have hopped on PEDs are already well versed in training and diet, and have their shit dialed in natty or not. Nobody needs anybody else's high five for being natty. Thats sus.
@sheen d
This is where context is very important. I agree with you if that same person is actually competing and pushing the boundaries of what’s physically possible. If it’s just some gym bro all they are doing is gratifying without delay. Discipline builds character.
Are you, "Noble Natty", a better person than your friend that takes PEDs? I don't know.
Are you better as a natural than your non-natty self? I'll have to agree with NH: essentially in every single aspect, other than the physical.
Why?
I will say, because it's cheating. No one likes a cheater. Some 19 y.o. kid blasting didn't earn his body he cheated. I have zero respect for cheaters
YES!! I've been thinking of e-mailing you for your opinion on this debate! I side more with NH than RF personally, but I do admit that RF is a force for good with regards to his legendary video on Greg's "maingaining".
100% natural for life 👍
i'm 66 yrs old, had consistent low Test numbers. I suffered from depression and my training regimen was difficult to continue. So now I'm on HRT for the last 6 months. Workouts are better work capacity is as well and depression is not as extreme. It's a win for me.
So even though I have ZERO interest in any PEDs, I watched the whole thing. Very informative video to give the TL;DR on the -drama- content that prompted your video.
I think the projection was the most astonishing for me (e.g. we're all shopping for sarms in a different tab). I mean, we all say stupid things sometimes because they sound great in our mind but once spoken we realize it was actually stupid. But when you record yourself, I'm assuming you hear yourself again when editing, how do you let statements like that get through?
Neither of them squat my bench, rendering their opinions pointless. #MOGGED
That Freakie D mogging arc is gonna be brutal, I read the spoilers and Natural Hypertrophy ends up with a badass eyepatch after benching Revival’s squat
😂😂😂😂
Well I've got a car analogy:
A non-hormonal treatment/regimen is like a naturally aspirated engine, while introduction of hormonal treatments is like using a turbo to force more air into the engine to up the power.
Of course turbo engines are a lot more powerful than N/A engines, but they don't last as long due to the higher stress. Better standards of design are also necessary so the engine doesn't blow up - just like how a hormone treatment regimen needs to be even more well balanced to manage health risks.
Personally, I stay natural because what I find consistently interesting about exercise is how you can get your body to change itself purely through the work you put in. Using drugs would be an interesting self-experiment in itself I suppose. But it would ruin the one I've been running for years now. And I want to see how this one ends
Unironically 55 minutes is basically a YT short for NH.
I would never take drugs, even though I'm not nearly satisfied after 10 years of training. Too many things left to optimize and methods to try.
Dude, this is like the best way to visually show a debate. A tennis game😂👍
Your boob analogy was awesome, right on the money. I don't feel that either side is better or worse, but I think those that try to minimze the perceived risk, or worse yet, promote steroid use, are shitty people, fake natties being the worst, to me those guys are toxic to the fitness community and should be de-platformed if they aren't going to be transparent with their PED use. I don't really understand why someone would throw away their natty card though, why is muscle gain that important to you?
Alexander Bromley went off PED because he was trying to have kids and well, his PED use made that impossible for 5 years.
Now he's a few months away from being a dad :)
Geoffrey, you don't need to spend 5375 Hours in edition, we would still watch to your videos. Have a rest 💪
That D&D reference though! Don’t care what your bench is, but that reference was 🤌🏻
11 minutes in and the long wait was worthed amazing editing geoff
At the end of the day, it all boils down to the enjoyment of the process
I don't think PEDS should be something that one messes around with as a recreational lifter. When your 20s it sounds great until your in your 30s and don't lift anymore and you've screwed up your healthy. Priority changes.
The tennis clips are so good lmao
For all the shaming of noble natties. RF is a size queen who shames anyone for wanting to keep abs
Anyone who thinks or acts like their better than someone else for any reason, like maybe they have more money than other people, or, i dunno, that they're better than non-naturals just because they themselves haven't crossed that bridge (yet), is absolutely no better and needs to check themselves. And speaking as someone who was diagnosed by 3 different physicians with low t at the age of 32, test IS that good at building muscle. I had, in the dr's words, "t levels they expect to see in someone who's in their 60's". So yes, it is a real problem for men who are in their early 30's, and yes, it makes a noticeable difference in many facets of life, aside from weight training.
As with a lot of things, I also very much fall in the middle, mostly because issues such as these are pretty much never black and white. That being said, I’m not a fan of Revival’s arguments. He very much seems to be projecting/prepping subs for his eventual PED use. Who knows? Only time will tell there. But either way, I’m sure he’s encouraged certain subs to consider PED’s. NH won this debate, despite my being a bit more in the middle on the issue. PED use doesn’t automatically determine character, but there is nuance there.
Social media got these kids thinking that they CAN make a life from simply taking gear. They think they can take gear, get big, make some content and cruise on it.
Reality is people can’t even make it on the content side of things cuz the industry is flooded with the same crap. Not to mention physiques that look better than the average person but not something a dedicated natural lifter couldn’t achieve.
For sure. A lot of this young, enhanced, aesthetic, techno, fuckboi content does very well in terms of clicks and likes and reach but in terms of converting to SALES it's almost certainly meh because it's mostly dumb teens watching. And usually eventually the audience wises up as they age so it's really a "get in and get out" type of business, PLUS these guys can't blast year round so that really does make this a short term thing.
Been waiting on this. Team #noblenatty
The thing is not everyone's goal to be a bodybuilder, its certainly not mine. And i tbh i am proud what i ve achieved naturally and i like my progression.
I realise now that for RevivalFitness, who lives in L.A. with a bunch of roided out meatheads, and seeing those meatheads rise to the top of the fitness industry, he feels much more compelled to do it too. Fitness is no longer a single man's journey to discipline, health and greatness where he lives; it's a direct dick measuring competition, and also a success gauge, AND it's key to get there as fast as possible. Hollywood muscles. It's clearly toxic as fuck. The intention behind it was never to what I mentioned, it was always to be the biggest NOW, so demonising PEDs obviously goes against that, preaching the natural and long road goes against that, and that's no good for him.
That's a funny picture of Arnold at 16. Arnold started taking Dianabol when he was 15.
He used to frighten the older lifters when Arnold would show up for his workout, take a handful of Dbol (when it was customary to take 2or 3 and wash them down with a jug of milk (spilling copious amounts on his sweatshirt)
Then he would let out a large belch, laugh, and hit the iron all for the shock and amazement of his older workout buddies.
"Its normal to have lower test at older age" Thank god for some common sense lol
The tennis match makes this so much more entertaining
I've heard something about throwing stones in glass houses. Everyone has their vices, and it's best to just live and let live.
Are you a better person if you never drink alcohol?
Are you a better person if you never smoke weed?
Are you a better person if you never....
We could do this for anything, or we could just say 'here are your pros and cons, make your own decisions'
Very correct in the term of making the decisions for yourself and dealing with the consequences. However, drinking alcohol is legal (if your the correct age) however in most countries weed and steroids are illegal to have and consume so I’d say being a criminal kind of leans on being a morally grey character. And paying drug dealers to acquire these things gives them more money to ruin others lives in the process.
Really all that needs to be said about the discussion. Well done.
A) law does not dictate morality. Legal slavery is not moral
B) hope you don't buy anything made in China or eat anything grown with the help of exploited illegal immigrant labor with that logic
Young people only see results not enlarged organs. Have to take the wow that is cool factor. Remember the Flintstones advertising cigarettes and Joe Camel? Why do you think that was happening? Why do you think that isn’t legal now?
Are you a better person if you never drink alcohol? Yes.
Are you a better person if you never smoke weed? Yes.
Honestly, nothing takes me out of an argument faster than when someone feels the need to go back to the "SJW bullshit" buzzword from like, the late 2010's.
Are you a better person if you return the shopping cart too the stand? Not inherently just from the one act. But it can serve as a good indicator that you are.
Better than if you didn't, I guess. But a "good" person? That's a lot of factors, for sure, PED use or shopping card returning only being part of it.
@@GVS true. In my mind what i see with our juicy bros is impatience, huge ego issues (not across the board but just in my experience) and a general lack of care for the long term results of their choices today. None of those are characteristics I see in people that I have a lot of respect for or view as "good" people. Thats what i mean. Impossible no. But i believe its much more probable that the natural person will have higher character
This video made me feel proud of myself :)
Good vid Geoffrey! My take is that this is such a stupid back and forth - I watched both the RE: vids and they were both so obsessive about fighting each other that they missed the point of what they were attempting to settle in the first place.
Do PED's lower your life? Yes. Does that matter in the first place? That's subjective.
Are you a worse or better person because of PED's? No. If you're using a drug as a metric of your value, you need to put more points into intelligence.
Should you take them? Subjective and entirely dependent on your goals. But know that unless you get lucky, you'll never hit the big time and no amount of drugs changes that.
Is MK's cultural influence clearly far different to many other cultures around the world? Yes. Does that skew his perception? Yes.
Is NH's personal viewpoint idealistic more than it's realistic? Yes. Does that skew his perception? Yes.
Should either of these people be making morality calls for the entirety of the fitness industry? Hell no. Should they take it upon themselves to be mindful of the mental wellbeing of their viewers? That's up to YOU, the viewer, to decide.
I personally stopped watching both. They both just got on my nerves after the situation. It's back to geoffrey, sondre berg, hybrid calisthenics. People who I like for my own psyche and wellbeing. That's the decision we all should make as viewers.
Best comment here
I never trier of this video, whenever i feel down i just watch this video and instantly cheer up
Noble natty tennis team.
Also, while steroid users might get a more impressive physique, noble nattys will get to meet their grandchildren
did you know that statistically speaking, men that use PEDs tend to have more daughter than sons ?
Now, that i know of, no causation has been studied yet, but it's an interesting thing nonetheless
The thumbnail is a beauty to behold.
Was waiting for your take on this situation
Tennis match edits are too good 😂
The wizard and barbarian comparison was very nice.
NH ripped him apart he should truly name his channel RIP revival fitness from now on
“I’m still gonna judge you” not not just you, WE 🤝
If one is within reasonable distance of their natural peak physique or strength and they are fully aware of the consequences of hopping on the sauce, then it would be none of our business judging that person for making this decision as an adult. In the end, it all boils down to which path someone decides to go down in their own life. Personally, if I ever reached a point where I had a pretty good chance of becoming the best bodybuilder, or powerlifter, or strongman in the world (you name it), I would go on gear even though it would compromise my health. Ask yourself whether you would stay natural if you were Chris Bumstead, Eddie Hall, or Larry Wheels.
Leaving the PED discussion aside, why does everyone have a problem with people passing judgement? You can’t stop people from having an opinion. In every society people will judge each other for their behaviour. The phrase "Live and let live." doesn’t translate to „Don‘t you dare voice your opinion“. An adult person fully aware off the consequences could decide to cut off their perfectly healthy leg for aesthetic reasons. In my opinion that’s bat shit crazy and I'd advise everyone not to do that.
@@DoomCookie no problem with passing judgement, but some judgement has really stupid justification for it. pointing that out is as expected as the jusgement itaelf
I do pass judgement. I don't want society thrusting mentally ill drug addicts into the faces of our youth. People need to realize that the world is always watching, and no one can operate alone in society. Just because you didn't ask to be a role model doesn't mean no one is using you as one
Great fucking video, you seem to never disappoint.
I don't really think of this as a moral issue. A few years ago I was seriously debating whether I should try a cycle of something, but ultimately decided "I'm in my 30s, I have a wife and kids...what exactly would I be sacrificing my health for? To look a little more impressive (mostly just to other dudes)? So I decided against it and never looked back
But for me at least, it was purely a pragmatic decision, not an ethical one. If I had made the other choice, I don't think I would have been ashamed of myself for trying it, but if I had experienced side effects, I would have been pissed at myself for risking so much for so little. For most people, using PEDs just doesn't make logical sense. But if they do it anyway, I'm not going to think of them as lesser in any way
"But if they do it anyway, I'm not going to think of them as lesser in any way"
Nah bro I already think more of you as a husband and a father for thinking of your kids and choosing to stay natural. Yes, it has to be said that better choices make you a better person, no matter how much this hurts the feelings of steroid users.
@@Pedro_Le_Chef Well said. It affects those around you.
@@Pedro_Le_Chef I dont think you understood their point
I’m a boxer, and it’s similar to the arguments about whether a boxer should body-build. Everyone thinks they’re some elite boxer who must stay as small as possible and not touch weight. For most people, they will never be elite boxers, and body-building is beneficial in the long run. These ignorant social media boxers spread the non-sense to avoid weightlifting when most people should.
Hmmm, maybe my statement isn’t as relevant as I thought.
lets be real, NH absolutely demolished him in the debate and we say guys like the Bold Omni Man breaking absolutely insane strength feats, so yeah
RIP Revival
No he didnt, he kept retroactively changing his arguments and literally said you are a better person if you dont use steroids. He argues on the false premises that anyone who uses steroids abuses them and has a blatant superiority complex. Anyone who thinks he won the argument can think for themselves.
@@imhopelesslyaddictedtofent4266 exactly
Thank you for the recap of the Revival vs Natural Hypertrophy arc
It would be interesting, if someone with low test, tested by a doctor, and then does the first thing like training and change habbit's, maybe do a sleep test, ( you should know how many people stop breathing while they're sleeping apnea without knowing) and then after these things got solved, tested again and see how the test is after a period. Such a study could potenitally give an idea of how much test gone up by doing so. If not then they need the TRT as a logical treatment I guess. But it would whipe out a lot of fud about low test at a specific age/habbits0
Why I lift? Self-improvement and health. Supraphysiological short cuts aren't in line my goals. Simple. (But I do recognize that others might have very different goals...)
Honestly, Natural Hypertrophy's videos are so long I just can't get into his channel, even though the content seems pretty good
There's timestamps in the description or comments :)
i mostly just treat his videos like a podcast and leave it in the background
Tiktok and youtube may have messed up with your attention span, they have mine! Although he is one of the few people I can easily watch an hour video of.
I don’t have an issue with the length. For me it’s the audio quality and accent that sometimes make it hard for me to follow
@@Fatfrogsrock I wish I could blame it on social media! 😅 Unfortunately attention span is a lifelong issue for me
Revival fitness has put in the work and it seems like he’s struggling with the temptation of being jealous of seeing others doing the same or less work than himself, yet getting more visible results. Most trainees will not benefit from steroids because they train poorly. RF has been consistently training well and it appears that something/someone is whispering in his ear, “why not try ped’s? YOU, RF, can actually benefit from them because you already have developed the habit of training well.”
apparently you cannot take a rational position without wanting to take PEDs. you guys are pathetic
VIRTUE > Jealousy
The effort with your tennis edits made this vid 100x better
Glad it was worth the extra hours!
You say at the beginning of the vid that you're in the middle of both these guys views. Either that was the case or you were sitting on the fence. It became apparent getting into the vid that you were on the side of NH and used a passive aggressive approach towards Rival. That's fine and all good but have the balls to call him out straight, instead of casually sitting on the fence and tactfully picking your side in the way you did. Then again that would take balls.
yea he is definitely partial and on NH's side.
i like revival, but he did lose here and its a bad take.
@@user-vv1do1wg1j yeah agree buddy but as you mentioned the guy is still partial whilst playing the role of mediator, trying to sound neutral. Too transparent.
lmao with the tennis edits!
Revival took an L with that video but he still has good content.
"Nailed it!" You are the GOAT!
Gem, set, match...
I find it just a tad strange that Revival Fitness hasn't left a comment on this video, despite his activity on videos that favour him or his viewpoint.
As for me, I stay natural not just because I compete in a drug tested sport, but because I don't want to get far on borrowed strength. Because that's exactly what PEDs are. Borrowed strength.
The dude got verbally beaten up severely last time so I think hes just hoping for it to be over asap
@@fdsafsgrgsdg242 he doesn’t give af about what you say
@@mikesmith2222 Me? No one was talking about me buddy
@@fdsafsgrgsdg242 cry baby
@@mikesmith2222 because?
22:25 ay sneaky jab at Jeremy lmao