ICF Construction: Why I Haven't Used Them as a Builder
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- As a builder, I get a lot of questions from people wanting to know if I have used insulated concrete forms (ICF's) for the above ground walls in the homes I've built. There are five main reasons why I haven't used them. This video goes into the potential problems with ICF construction including moisture/mold, lack of skilled labor trained in using them, costs (and I give the cost difference as of today), and so on. There are some serious positives to using concrete for above grade wall construction. Just be sure you are aware of the potential issues prior to launching your next project with ICF's. For information about building your own home visit ownerbuilderclass.com/
- Навчання та стиль
I'm doing my own ICF.
None of these "downsides" matter unless you are just trying to slap together cheap homes as quickly as possible.
Build one over a year or 2.
Live in it 2 years while building the next one.
Sell the first one.
Get the $250k-$500k cap gains tax exemption.
Pay no federal taxes on normal size houses.
I'm looking at doing one any info I should know?
I built my ICF home. Hired all my own subs. Found framers, brick layers, sheet rockers, electrician, plumber, etc. My draftsman I hired did ICF floor plans, so they were spot on. The guy that stacked my ICFs has been doing it since the late 90s. He left the door openings bigger than needed so the framers could frame to the door opening, and I would only require a 6-inch reveal for my doors...
Did my homework and hired the right subs!
Yep exactly!
Most builders don't want to use ICF, because they can't upcharge for air sealing, spray foam and other energy efficient, but costly details that would be required to get even remotely close to the efficiency of ICF. ICF is a one stop shop and it can be installed by anyone. It is probably the most forgiving building material (pre-pour obviously) out there. Another reason I see builders not recommend it is because it's extremely DIY friendly and has free engineering tables readily available for most builds.
ICF sounds like it has a lot of advantages but it's new and different. People are usually afraid of what they don't know. It seems like it would be a major headache to deal with changes in the future. Opening up concrete walls to change plumbing, electrical, or HVAC has to be way more difficult. What can you do if you have a leaking pipe or want to remodel the bathroom or kitchen?
@@KPHVAC ICF has been around since 1953, but it just isn't as mainstream. Pre planning all penetration's is key, but for a remodel it is a simple as getting out a demo saw and opening up the wall, same if you had a block basement. You do not run the plumbing in the walls.. I would suggest you watch some videos on it and see how plumbing is routed.
@@FJB2020 Also, just in case you can add a couple of penetrations to those that are already in the plan, and then if you do not need them you can just fill them up later.
@@sebastiantevel898 That is a good point! I added a few extra for things that I might add in the future.
@@KPHVAC My above-ground ICF home is 12 years old I cool this massive home with a small bedroom-sized window AC unit. It's all free span so can be set up most anyway in the future it's also very storm safe and I get insurance discounts. I remodeled 1 bath soon the others its not an issue like you all make it out to be. A conventional home bath isn't a picnic to re-do the floors mostly need replacement the wall may have rot not problems in my on slab ICF.
All of the problems you mentioned about building with ICF can be fixed with proper planning. As for the cost difference you failed to mention that the home owner will be able to purchase smaller HVAC equipment because of the insulation value of ICF. Small unit, smaller electric bill.
This video isn’t a full list of pros and cons…I can list ten more items for and against using ICF’s. This is strictly listing the reasons I’ve chosen not to use ICF in the homes I’ve built. And yes any negative can be worked around. But when you don’t have a decent workforce to build 150 houses a year with these…you don’t do it…it’s that simple.
@@OpenBookBuild The problem of production building is due to the scale its indeed inpractical to deviate from standard stick framing due to the associated lack of attention to detail...although the same can be said of the production crews often not properly sealing Zip panels or any other methods that are designed to air seal the modern build...which will lead to condendation and rot of the wall assembly..is the reason I'll self build with ICF
I was a production framer prior to the current code retirements of air sealing...when our 4 days with crew of 4 could frame a 2 story tract home of good quality...this can't be said for the current production build due to the air tight requirements.
ANY problem can be mitigated through proper planning. The issue is , is it worth it to overcome those mitigated issues? Plus is the contractor going to make a mistake even after mitigating the issues. If it’s worth it then no problem, if not don’t use them.
@@OpenBookBuildICON 3D printed homes are about to take off. All concrete and very popular.
ICFs are a great way to build. Many builders/contractors don't do ICF because it's just easier to stick with something you know.
Exactly!
If a builder doesn't like or want to build with ICF, for whatever reason, you really should continue your builder search.
exactly!
Not the case of this gentleman, but builders do not like ICF at first because most of them (by their own admission) do not even know its existence.
Second, the house walls go up so quickly in 1 go with only 1 trade of 5 men (+ concrete truck guy) instead of 3 to 5 trades, and that leaves with very little room for change orders, up charges for "hard to get supplies" and "unforeseen" issues the stick builders can charge the customer with...
Also if their employees learn how to build in ICF it would not take much to go "solo" and become their competitors in the same area.
The issue highlighted in this video with the flooring system detailing is easily resolved by using detailed drawings which are provided by the ICF block supplier and can be integrated into the original plans in no time.
But in general, a part having to manage humidity for the first 12 months, most of the concerns mentioned in the video offer an advantage if looked from another angle.
Sure it requires better planning and drawings than a stick-built, but that is a win because it will force you to plan and supervise better which is not a con.
From 2000sf and up, building in ICF offers more advantages than the traditional system and comparable costs. For basements, ICF is actually a no-brainer.
As a guy that builds with ifc’s nearly everyday here is my take.
Detailed plans are a must and we will live or die on the plans. Openings, pipe penetrations, windows and doors are set to the plans and followed to a “T” because we do not want to come back and fix anything. But we can build off any standard plans, building off interior dimension isn’t uncommon.
But most of our builds are not complete homes. Most are retaining walls build into the house. A half basement type thing.
Cody, where abouts do you build? I am getting ready for a custom home build in the San Antonio TX area, using my brother in law (a custom home builder) and trying to convince him to try ICF. We will not use it for the main house, but I want to use it on the shop (approx 20’ x 25’)
@@justinjimenez6960 I’m in the north west area. By the Continental divide. If nothing else just try the foundation walls with the Icf. Up here we need to build below the frost line and that is usually two-three blocks high depending on the brand of blocks. It’s a good way to get your feet wet and see how comfortable you are with the blocks. The insulation is amazing with these things. Currently finishing my own home with these blocks. You can literally walk into a room, fart, and the room temp will rise 7 degrees….😉
@@justinjimenez6960 There's a company in East Texas called American ICF. I'm planning on having him help on my house with full basement. You give him the plans, he orders everything you need and puts it all together. You hire your own concrete guy etc.
Hi Cody, did you try Thermasteel panels?
@@coronaviruspandemic7548 did you end up using American ICF? I haven't been able to get ahold of anyone there.
It’s fairly cheap to have plans adjusted for icfs and it’s more like $250-$350. Do it right the first time. There are ICFs that it is almost impossible to blow out e.g. thermagreen blocks; and stick now is costing more. ICFs generally keep your trades from doing it wrong the first time.
Not always true, we had a builder here in Ontario that built with something very similar to ICF. It was "so easy" to install that the builder went bust and now Tarion is suing the builders as well as the municipality and Mike Holmes because the houses have so many issues with them that some are being torn down. These homes were built in 2015. ICF is more expensive up front then a tradition build and most trades don't know how to build around that like with building a straw bale house. Not to mention when you get a blow out while pouring an ICF it's not as easy as people think it is especially not in a climate like Canada. If ICF's were the perfect solution like asbestos was... everyone would be doing it already by now, but there's a reason most don't. Not fair to blame builders when most people have no idea what it costs to build homes in today's atmosphere. Builders can't build it cheaper and people can't afford what we build to begin with.
I really enjoy this channel and how much value it brings to anyone looking to be an owner builder. Some helpful viewpoints. ICF are far superior. It's difficult to even present a comparison. When you look at everything from the lack of thermal bridging, framing factor of traditional stick built homes, thermal mass of the concrete core, blower door test results of ICF, operating cost of HVAC systems in ICF, resilience against water damage, and the ability to survive hurricane wind speeds. Concrete, steel, and the ICF blocks are far more cost stable when estimating a build budget. If the cost is 5% more for ICF you can calculate how fast that is paid back to the owner in operational savings from a significantly efficient home. If you combine ICF with some techniques from passive home design like southern orientation of fenstration and thermal massing of a polished concrete slab floor you can downsize mechanical systems even further. These homes should be constructed with dedicated dehumidification, energy recovering ventilation, and heat pumps. Building codes were designed around a world and climate we no longer live in. In my area we encounter 100 mph winds and within the lifespan of a newly constructed ICF house 200 mph is inevitable. I would rather my family be protected in steel reinforced concrete than a structure that fails at the roofline even when additional hurricane ties are in place. ICF are also DIY friendly when the manufacturers provide an incredible collection of instructional video, documentation, plan inspection and design services. You can even rent bracing systems. Imagine a ICF block wall with 2.5" eps interior + exterior, a 2" eps insert to the exterior (total 4.5" to the exterior), 6" steel reinforced concrete core, total 7" eps insulation with zero thermal bridging and a 6" core of stabilizing thermal mass. Now design and engineer a stick frame wall that will perform the same....
Good comment, but your climate alarmism is way out of whack. Storm proof is good enough without exaggerating future climate risks.
@5starCA There were 200mph winds from Hurricane Ian 10 months ago, so he's not being alarmist. And the heat this summer is record-breaking nation-wide. So all his points are 100% valid.
So true!
I built a 1600 sqft (per floor - Canada, upper floor was traditional 2x6) walkout ICF in 2010 and here is my take. You need a good concrete supplier with consistent quality concrete and need to be very sure to brace the walls properly (mine were 10ft tall) not only to prevent blowouts, but also to prevent the small separations that leak concrete. I planned for all the service penetrations ahead of time, and it wasn't an issue. Extremely quiet and comfortable (although this was out in the country on 160 acres...so already quiet). Humidity was never an issue from day one...I'm not sure where that's coming from.
Also, tons of waste in the form of small pieces of foam and plastic clogging up the landfills afterwards (and blowing around your property). This is not an issue with factory-built SIPs, and the process is much quicker and less prone to screw ups, so I may go that route with my next build in a few years. You do also need to dig out foam channels for the electrical, which was also time-consuming and made another colossal mess. Forget about stucco on the outside too unless you really want to complicate your life.
Hi Karl, we want to build an ICF house in 2023, about 1200 sq ft. Can you provide me with any contacts?
@@JNO_JNO Hi, no idea. I am in Saskatchewan. It isn't that difficult to do yourself. My neighbour (out in the country) did a house our size and him and his wife watched the video that came with the blocks and had the house up faster than I did, and it looked a lot better too. The main benefit other than doing it right is that you aren't waiting on contractors.
@@JNO_JNO nudura or amvic or build block
Pretty sure all of the foams used in ICF blocks are recyclable, so the off cuts shouldn't need to go to the landfill.
@@carlb401 Haha...I have yet to experience a contractor that gives two sh!ts about the environment. They're like grain farmers. I had to tell them several times to clean up the pieces that were blowing all over my property. When I asked them about recycling the pieces (because I had heard that too) the numb look they gave me was not encouraging. I doubt even 0.1% of the waste ever gets recycled.
Builders in the US have become stuck in old technology and don’t want to change. Stick built is cheap, fast, and extremely profitable. In Germany, 85% of the homes there are solid built meaning concrete walls. It takes a couple of months longer to build but they are much more efficient. I think things need to progress in this country especially in FL. There shouldn’t be any stick built houses being built. Everything new should be concrete. I think insurance companies would agree.
Slight mistake here: in Germany and most of Europe nearly all houses are built with solid walls, but not concrete ones, as the insulation properties are not good enough. Building materials may vary by what is locally available and therefore cheapest, but typically (in colder areas) large, light, well insulating building blocks would be used, which have insulating properties approaching rockwool. Concrete would only be used for subterranean cellars and floors or possibly for a concrete framework for high rise buildings . Normally any house will be built on a concrete foundation plate. Building regulations require wall insulation properties equivalent to about 8" of rockwool or Styrofoam, this can be achieved with the aforementioned materials with hardly any additional pure insulation. This added insulation would be on the outside, so as to maximise the heat capacity effect of the materials used inside.
Always sticking to traditional methods can be a bit of a problem, see the UK, where the building trade does not seem to be able to get away from the traditional brick cavity wall, which -in my opinion- makes efficient insulation a nightmare.
I already learned the hard way about hiring so called "tradesmen" or contractors. Their main skill is slapping in the cheapest products available,using the easiest/laziest building methods to get OFF the job as fast as possible and handing you a massive bill. Then you find out they made mistakes, sloppy work,did not do what you wanted them to do and they never answer their phone or call you back. Oh, and they love to toss out their coke cans, cigarette boxes and candy wrappers all over your property for you to pick up. They'll be spilling nails everywhere and you'll get flat tires as well. DONE! After having to tear out and redo a few contractor jobs, I forced myself to learn how to build, do concrete, electrical and plumbing. Now the work I do on my own property is FAR better than any contractor can do or will do. In SOME situations, you're forced to hire, but you better believe I will be standing right there watching and supervising.
Completely wrong. A true "tradesman" strives to perform his task to the best of his ability and known practices, without skipping a single item. They dont drop a single nail, and if so they will stop to pick it up. You seem to have experienced the "Hack", "Handyman", "Jack-of-all" whom tend to perform the way you describe, sorry you have experienced the latter but trained and l;icensed "tradesmen will never perform the way you describe.
@@johndough1966 Unless you're female and they think you don't know how to critique their work. (Yeah. Ask me how I know this.)
@@johndough1966 Yes, but finding these guys unfortunately can be through trial and error. I had the very same experience this guy did with some guys, so no, he's certainly not completely wrong.
You have to be willing to vet your contractors prior to hiring and to pay for quality work.
@@9sheri9 No vetting process is 100% effective. And I've often had better quality work from a lower priced contractor wanting to prove themselves than an expensive one who is relying on a reputation he's no longer earning.
ICF are great for basements! With proper planning, all things said are no problems. ICF homes are also called Legacy Homes because they will last almost forever! One of the best for withstanding natural disasters. Will cost less to heat and cool. Biggest problem is they are airtight and need air exchangers added to ensure there is enough fresh air entering the home. I'm planning on installing for my basement myself maybe. Another thing not mentioned is that the walls are already for interior finishes. Just screw drywall or other finish to the walls!
Great video Michael. Thanks for sharing!
My dude, you're awesome!!! The information you provided and your delivery are priceless. Thank you.
Always good to hear both sides of the story with building a full ICF home. We are thinking ICF for only the basement and stick build on top, with outer envelope of stick build with zip R sheathing to deal with the thermal bridging of the 2x6 or 2x8 studs. Thank you from Eastern Canada in Atlantic Provinces🙏🇨🇦
I'm thinking about the same in the Chicago area ;) no basement, just the ICF foundation and slab on grade
You don’t have to dig out channels in the styrofoam for the sub trades. I’ve been on builds where the walls are firred out with 1x4 for easier drywalling and electrical. ICF blocks have grooves that denote where to screw/nail fasteners but it’s easy to miss, so using 1x4s parallel or perpendicular to the ground works great with little added cost compared to digging out channels.
How are the firrs attached to the concrete?
@@greenthumbprepper8653 Not attached to concrete. the foam part in the ICF has plastic strips in them for you to screw to. Locations are marked on the foam and you can just screw the 1x4 to them.
@@josiahrichardson5455 that makes things so much simpler then!!!
Exactly!
Almost every new construction home I see has a ton of unnecessary details that create difficulty for builders and the trades. I would never try to translate stick built home plans to ICF. If you can make construction details easier, it will probably pay for any increase in materials used. If you plan for electric, plumbing and HVAC in the design instead of build and then tell the trades to figure it out, you'll save there too.
As for trades that don't know how to work with ICF, how will they learn if you only build stick built?
Lastly, ICF really lends itself to energy efficiency with the insulation and air sealing. If you take advantage of that your reduced energy costs should offset that 5% increase in mortgage payment. With wood prices today I don't think it's 5% either, I think I can save compared to a typical stick built design with a complicated roof line and no intention of trying to reduce construction material waste.
Once builders, designers and trades get on the same page ICF builds will happen so smooth and easy that you'll be kicking yourself for stick building for so long.
You get concrete, much of the rebar, great insulation, air barrier, vapor barrier and avoid furring out to hang drywall - all in one step. Am I missing how it can’t be better if the cost is similar to traditional, especially for a basement???
We're aiming to build a home, and hopefully use ICF (for longevity/durability and energy efficiency). I'm trying to compile a list of all the considerations that need to be made, so that we can plan properly and reduce the headaches associated with making mistakes/forgetting things in the plans. Videos like this one have been extremely helpful. Thanks for making this!
One thing I'm doing in the planning of mine (ICF, slab on grade), is planning the plumbing runs carefully. All of my plumbing is on one side of the house and I plan to have the main drain line run under the ground BESIDE the house rather than under the slab like is normal. That way, if there are any problems with the line, the slab will probably not need to be disturbed. Makes the line a bit longer, but if I ever have a problem with it, I think it will be worth it. Pipe is cheap, comparatively.
Great video & insight, thank you for this upload
Everything mentioned is quality control issues with the contractor. Not blaming you, just saying its good you know your limits. Being only skilled enough and not willing to learn a new material isn't a bad thing, its your business, you do whats comfortable and profitable for your company.
The price is the same today stick built vs ICF.
Thanks for the info. For my project, I'll just be using it for pouring the footing only.
Thanks for sharing your experience
All points are valid but we are not comparing apples to apples. The energy efficiency alone allows ICF to be compared to an equally efficient stick frame. The best tip is the construction drawings have got to be redrawn with clearly marked dimensions of the ICF before you start construction. Every utility penetration has got to be planned with exact dimensions. Last-minute changes in outside walls are super expensive if not impossible.
Your concerns about icf is unfounded. I have built several structures out of icf. Zero serious issues. Core drilling isn't a big deal at all, there is also a tool that uses heat to cut into foam for electrical and plumbing. You are crazy to not use icf if you can afford the slight increase in price. It is quite impressive how cool it stays inside!
YES THANK YOU!
@@mathewfrantz482 no problem! It really is amazing how efficient they are. An r60 value is possible
Thanks for the good info. Very well done vid and informative. Im considering building a 16x20ft, two story shed in my backyard with an additional level underground (basement). I've been exploring the ICF forms for this project. The good info you've shared will help me make an informed decision. Thanks 👍.
Alternative views are important. I may not end up on your side of the argument, but everything you said is reasonable and should be a consideration when making the choice, so thank you!
Today is August 6, 2022. Today’s material prices are beyond high, all construction materials. The biggest sin committed by ICF companies is, their greed has destroyed their market. $68.00 for 1 block of Nudura is highway robbery.
Wasnt it around $52 per 8ft straight before?
The only major drawback to icf's is any renovations involving doors and windows (Ie, adding new ones or resizing existing ones). The rest mentioned can be easily mitigated with proper design, planning and installation methods.
Thank you for the information. I love your objectivity. I am considering ICF walls only for the basement walls for a walkout basement in NJ.
I have icf and will never go back. I just love the efficiency
The extra costs of building an ICF house come back as savings over time in the cost to heat and cool the house. That’s half of the reason to build using ICF. The other half of the reason is ICF houses can handle storms easier than stick built houses can.
The argument about the width of the walls isn’t necessary valid. Concrete block houses have the same wall thickness issues that ICF houses have.
Is there anything better than an ICF walkout basement if you plan to build a passive or super well insulated and air tight home? What are your opinions with ICF basements vs others in regards to water proofing and radon mitigation?
May not be anything better -- it's way up there. You definitely need to have air ventilation (ERV/HRV) so you're not trapping various toxins in the house. Waterproofing is essential and non-debatable with any basement, including ICF. Peel-n-stick or fluid applied both work, and be sure to shingle at the footer with a proper drain system also present. Radon is mitigated just like any other basement or home with a slab.
I built an ICF walkout in 2010. It was very quiet and comfortable, but I don't know that I will be doing it again. I only waterproofed the part that is in the ground obviously, but it was overkill as the house was built in jackpine sand. It is definitely a lot more complex than just using wood or SIPs. With a walkout very little is even in the ground, so you can do a hybrid concrete/wood wall pretty easily. You have to really brace well to prevent blowouts, and make sure they're putting CONSISTENTLY good concrete in the wall with EVERY truck. A good concrete supplier is essential. They also need to vibrate properly (i.e. not too much). Finishing the outside with stucco is far more expensive and time-consuming as well as you have to use the fine metal lathe. I'm not sure how it would improve Radon as that comes up through your floor.
Your videos are awesome!
Good for him to admit he lacks experience. He did mention issues from how someone lives in the home, without listing humidities from bath kitchen or humidifiers. Some video showed ventilation channels spaced around for exchanging fresh air. No remarks specified residual wall moisture, but now it makes total sense with this video. Thanks for essential study questions!
Very helpful. Thanks!
Hi. What do you think about the Foam Houses (SAB system from Strata International)?
I've seen a couple channels now.....
I love you all's channel and the camaraderie. You motivate me and hopefully my future wife.
Look forward to watching your videos to completion and maybe someday meeting yall in person.
How would your perspective change with ICF only for a basement foundation? Slab-on-grade I don't see ICF's as a good choice but for below grade the waterproofing (e.g. Polywall) and having moved the dewpoint outboard of the concrete allows drywall directly to the integrated ribs. You make a good point about the moisture getting out of the cured concrete but if you waited to finish the basement that could be mitigated.
I have to build a small house to live in. Around 20x20 is large enough for one old guy. I want to keep costs low, but it needs to be really well insulated to keep the sometimes minus 30F cold and 100+F heat out. I'll have a basement for the water heater and furnace and things like that. Stick frame, at very least 2x6 studs and possibly 2x8. One room with a small enclosure for the bathroom, the rest of the floor plan will be open with just supports for the roof and our often-heavy snow loads. OR, ICFs? There's a local builder who specializes in ICFs. They'll do the job right the first time. Hmm, what should I do?
Can cotton weep rope be installed to help with wicking the moisture out of the concrete walls without affecting the insulation of the walls?
The slow cure is what you want to make 4,000 psi concrete 9,000 psi. Get the roof on and your MEPS inspection then set up the dehumidifiers to run drying the inside of the foam. A couple days then drywall, it will be fine.
I have watched several videos on ICF’s. One issue that I have seen is that they can’t get termite protection. Due to the insulation on the outside. The termites being able to tunnel through it and not being visible.
Not true. The exterior wall of ICF can be protected from termites, if needed, like any other wall by using wire mesh screens or other methods. Plus any termite damage will never be structural as termites can't eat through the concrete core, and the foam is not a food source.
Really like your channel just wondering if you know any new home builders in the knoxville area? We live in a house built in 2019 and the quality of the build is horrible we bought it after it was already built so we didn't have any input so now we bought land 50 miles south of knoxville and wana build keep up the great info thanks
Hi David. Unfortunately I don't know any builders in your area. Sorry I couldn't helpl.
I am also planning to build around Knoxville (Vonore) and met with Charles Park an ICF builder look him up maybe he can help. Also, looked at vanhooseco concrete panel walls.
ICF is outstanding. I vote yes. 😊
While I respect your opinion and agree much of what you say may possibly apply to DIY'ers who rush into it, it's not a very realistic representation of professional ICF construction. If people take the time to know in their minds what they want in the house and accurately relay that using reputable and experienced architects, engineers and contractor most of what you've mentioned doesn't apply. Also if the concrete your using takes a year and a half to fully cure that's a major red flag, typically between one to three months for a large house (triple level) solves any moisture issues with those issue's becoming less as that time passes.
Masonry loves to wick moisture. Masonry need some air contact to dry out, or it gets water logged. The plastic pieces allow moisture to go though the wall. Rebar should be in cased in at least 4 inches of concrete to keep it from rusting. Icf is 3 times the amount of cmu block plus concrete.
Honest assessment
So to summarize, if you don't have the resources or proper infrastructure in your business portfolio. Stay away from ICF as a owner. If you're a buyer and find a specific ICF builder, then ICF is far, far, superior to stick.
Ask yourself one questing, do you want a home after severe weather conditions? You know the choice.
The American fears and loathes construction methods and tools that aren't taught in arts&crafts.
As an European, I'm considering this as a robust alternative to aerated concrete bricks. With bricks of some sort as the default, the only relevant downside is moisture retention.
I'm guessing I'd want to save on costs and still use bricks for interior/non-load-bearing walls?
so most of these things seem to only matter if you use ICF all the way up. I am thinking about using it for the basement and building conventional from there up...
Can you comment or do a video related to California / San Diego as it relates to owner builder?
Bueller Bueller?
How about using ICFs for just a foundation wall? Considering for a bardominum build in NE Ohio.
Definitely good for foundation walls
@@OpenBookBuild Good to hear. Figured it would be excellent for a thermal break to the slab. Side question. As you are in Ohio, are you aware of any bardominium builds around? I’m nervous Lake County will be a real pain to try and build one. Especially as and owner builder.
@@davidreilly3456 I'm now aware of any. Just make sure your plans are detailed and meet the requirements of the building department. Most municipalities require a structural review by a licensed architect or engineer for permit submittal.
@@OpenBookBuild Thank you for your insight! Now to hunt down an architect.
Does anyone know when the concrete is poured in the walls, is it always necessary to shake the icf walls, as the concrete is fil lining into the walls?
Yes, there will be a laborer with a vibrator working as the wall is being poured. ICF 4ever!
What about the quality of foam? Does it look like a wall?
You're supposed to cover the foam on the inside with drywall, and on the outside with waterproof membrane and regular siding. I used hardi-plank. So yes, it looks like a regular wall.@@Summersault666
This may sound silly, but have you had any thoughts on ICF with a regular 2x4 stud wall on the inside? I like the idea of sturdy and energy efficient concrete walls, but stick frames inside also make it easier to wire, plumb, hang TVs or speakers, or make any alterations. The obvious downsides are more cost and larger overall house footprint.
I built a Poly-Steel ICM home 25 years ago in MN and would never go back to stick built construction.
Nice.. I am looking to build up in Otter Tail county Minnesota. I am loving what I am hearing about ICF construction. Any information regarding your experience - dos and don'ts - would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike
@@lembeck4010 Dos: Plan ahead for any possible change you may want to make like running an electric service to a future pole barn. Add the appropriate size PVC sleeve so you won’t have to core drill later.
Dos: Don’t cut corners with the bracing… mistakes are $$!
Dos: The house will be air tight so install a HRV to control winter humidity.
Don’t: Don’t build in a state where you will become a slave of the state!
@@VetSemperFi Thank you Vet!! you said "Don’t build in a state where you will become a slave of the state!". We both live in Minnesota. I do consider Minnesota a slave state as seen by my taxes. Please clarify your "slave state" comment. :) thanks, Mike
Thank you for sharing your experience. I've had clients reach out to me about ICF homes because they hear all of the pros and particularly the ease of construction for it. But it's only AFTER they've invested their money into an architect & engineer to provide drawings, then get their building priced out, is when they realize all of the logistic & cost downfalls of it. I can't count the number of times a pricing exercise resulted in the building structure changing back to traditional framing.
Currently taking the previous architect to court for walking out of our ICF home's drawing and out of complete ignorance. New draughstman is a champ and got everything sorted. I got later told architects have agreements with some material companies and council said they are scared of new stuff... go ICF
Always future proof with conduits and sleeves through pad and walls regardless the type of construction!
None of the issues you talk about, are that problematic enough not consider ICF. You did not talk about the advantages of ICF? There is less labor involved in stacking ICF even with the placement of steel rebar they are easier to install than the typical framed wall, once you have a trained crew. There is less physical labor, so the workers are less tired at the end of the day. The house walls are substantially stronger, hurricane proof, fire proof, insect-rodent proof, Bullet proof, and no dry-rot issues at all! If the caulking fails around windows or doors, there is nothing to rot. And the ICF walls are much better at insulating sound and heat-cold, because of the solid mass of concrete and the high density Styrofoam on either side of the block. It is far superior to a 2x6 framed wall. It seems you are looking for excuses not to use ICF when you could be taking advantage of all the good properties? For example, you mentioned your electrician wanted to charge more for cutting the wire and boxes in, when in reality, it is a much quicker process to simply use a small electric chain saw to do the channels. And when the cost of lumber jumped up, there was no difference in the cost between framed exterior and ICF exterior.
Not a deal breaker, just overall a better, stronger, safer home, and more climate friendly
Icf is the way to go period.
When the big bad wolf comes a huffing and puffing, I would prefer ICF.
Concrete doesn't work the way you think it does! Water is essential to the strength, and it chemically incorporated into the concrete - it doesn't "leak out" over time. Your other reasons for not using ICF just seem to be sheer laziness.
An honest opinion without being rude. OK. But most of the comments were along the line of "if you don't plan right, then...". Of course. No one will take a set of plans for stick built and assume everything is the same for ICF. I got plans for my new home from a company that offered both versions (and then some). This is just about common sense. Of course you make sure you have enough penetrations for your utilities, and maybe a couple more just in case. etc...
I am not a builder but whatever you say is so minor as compared to what advantages I get with concrete house compared with stick frame houses.
I built one. I never consider other methods than ICF. If you use brick the wall wil be 19 cm. But if the land is big no problem. USE STACO AND You have to have very good plan. Otherwise price will go up.
water makes ICF stronger
ONE MORE THING YOU MUST USE FIBERGLASS WINDOW FRAMES.
Here in the Netherlands we have ants that eat or dig in the polystyrene material. For me a reason not to use it underground.
Joey, none of my comments in the video are “assumptions”…they come from my experience in building a couple thousand homes over a several decades as a general contractor. If physically building homes with ICF works for you…great. As I mentioned in the video, they have many positives. Although I’m not sure where you got the “off gassing” from as this was not mentioned in the video. Maybe too much turkey and gravy? Happy Thanksgiving
@6:34 “if you have a general contractor that uses ICF’s and have the trade base that’s familiar with them, I say go for it”…so in other words you don’t have the right tradesmen or experience to deal with them.
Seems to me that the only real "deal breaker" would be the lack of ability to renovate or add an addition. All other excuses he gives can be dealt with by thinking ahead and ensuring good subs.
Icf or stick build you have to tear it out, he’s grasping at straws
"The reason that concrete doesn't dry out and then reabsorb water later is because water isn't leaving the concrete at all. It's reacting with it and becoming part of the concrete form."
@ just 5 to 10% cost difference, ICF is still better than stick frame constructions. This guy is making his points as a builder, not for the consumer’s benefit. Ciao.
I would choose ICF
Why are they digging out foam for electric? Run conduit in the concrete….
Sounds like your subs are not into quality craftsmanship. As an HVAC contractor, I have done a few of these homes and proper planning and constant reviews are required. Yes! This means the GC must be on site at most times, especially at the beginning. Only one problem I had and that was the Heat Exchanger we used was passive vs. active. No bid deal as we connected it with the bath room exhaust.
Get better subs!
2,000-3,000 additional architectural costs to redesign ? more like 12,000 !
Whit the current cost of wood is the price that much diffrent
I don't mean to be rude after all you and I are colleagues since I myself is a contractor in Geneva Switzerland interestingly enough all the cons that you gave us of why you rather stay away from ICF kinda seemed to be linked to either your crew's incompetency or lack of reliable craftsmanship if you want my honest opinion hence the more I listen to the video the more I feel like ICF the way to go anyway let us know if you've changed your mind and why is that....
As someone who has labored on icf and stick builds I strongly disagree with your assumptions. First, a good build begins with good planning which means good architects and site planners. All the math is done. Second, when prices for lumber skyrocketed, concrete turned out to be a cheaper option. While the icf build is definitely more expensive over-all, it's recovered easily through heat/aircon costs in short time as icf is usually in the r 30 range with little wind break vs r12 minus gaps for wood. While it's true you require specific skills for icf pours, it's no different than finding a roofer for steel vs shingles. There are as many costly mistakes for stick frame as other builds. Finally, off-gassing temporarily is a poor excuse to reject quality when redundant hvac system requirements in most municipalities make this a non-issue. Furthermore, renovation concerns are a definite drawback but I revert to where I began with poor planning as a bad excuse for discrimination to this style. We agree on cost being the only significant valid reason to reject this method. Ignorance is not a valid reason.
I thought ICF would be great in places with high humidity.
It is
personally I would prefer to build with sips or do a double stud construction to get to the same end result.
SIPs have tons of real issues even if you don't include cost. Double stud eliminates your conventional framing cost savings but still leaves you with a wall that can be destroyed by insects.
I tried to like both of those systems until I added finishes to try to make them long lasting like steel or cement board siding with good water barrier products and a rain screen. Bottom line, you'll spend more to try to make a wall as durable as ICF but with no guarantee that it will be as durable. You won't see that until you price the entire wall from the siding to your drywall/interior.
Lennar is building using ICONs 3D printing. This means robots and drones are building homes in future, and now. They are cost competitive, so ICF builders will be forced to step up their game.
Those 3d printed houses are trash lol
@@denverbasshead Please explain how they are trash.
The reality is the only reason he’s not building with ICF is cost. It’s superior to stick frame in every other metric.
ICF material cost is relative to stick framed far more stable. How can a DIY builder budget for a build with the price of wood framing, sheathing absolutely unstable..He cant do as are builders, create a cost contingency, passing on increased cost to the customer in order to mitigate risk... agree that ICF is not well suited for non custom builders and those dependent upon semi skilled low quality, low pay framers that construct the bulk of today's homes. Absent is the comparison of stick framed vs icf moisture and rot issues that would no doubt alone tilt the scale to ICFs, the greater resale value and much reduced energy cost as well. The need for a change of rough openings in years to come, how often is it required? Due to the labor intensive process of the straightening of wood studs its often rushed, resulting in unsightly shadow lines of exterior and interior finish( perfectly straight metal stud interior framing is far less costly and labor intensive than 2x4 construction)
ICF is currently a niche market requiring much greater attention to detail,not well suited for shoddy production framers That said, why can't we trade the expense of overly complicated gaudy architectural nightmares soon to be dated for traditional non complicated designs incorporating ICF exteriors?
Why would an icf house have greater resale? There is no calculation for home appraisals for icf. You can build more energy efficiency homes using non icf techniques.
@@av1204 ...the amount of time/extreme attn to detail/labor skill & materials involved to bring stick anywhere near ICF energy efficiency is not worth the huge added costs, as you still face issues of insects/water/fire/winds/noise/etc, which ICF is nearly impervious to.
As for resale, it's mostly on the seller to educate potential buyers of the added value. You're correct in noting appraisal value isn't likely to rise, but this is a fault of the financial industries not keeping up on building tech. Insurance industry absolutely knows the difference ICF makes, just look at premiums in fire/tornado/hurricane/quake prone areas.
@@av1204 Sure, but to reach R25 and perfect seal with a stick-built it will cost the same as ICF and take longer to build.
1 ICF trade will complete the work of 3 or 4 trades in one go.
If you want to go above R25 with stick-built good luck with double framing, all the amount of layers of wrappings, sheeting, nailings and tape.
Also, many counties require to meet a minimum hurricane rating and therefore you will have to use steel strapping on every floor, a 4000sf home stick built will cost you 7 grand for strapping only, while the ICF will not need that.
I understand resale value will not vary by much, although there is the appraisal for "concrete construction" vs else. Not mentioning the saving in house insurance due to fire resistance and hurricane rating.
@@sebastiantevel898 I have an ICF house. I know what the benefits are. Price isnt one of them. Acting like a stick frame house cant be built to the same standards for less is a joke. 2x6 framing with open cell and zip R. You can easily get the same air tightness for less.
@@av1204 hey AV, was it worth going the ICF route? Asking honestly here
So is regular brick still a better alternative?
brick/block are far more labor-intensive & far less energy efficient. Michael is a good guy, but get ICF info from people who actually know about/work with it.
Brick and block do not compare in strength and you will not have the thermal break without a lot of work.
Thank you for addressing the moisture issue. I can't understand why anyone would decide to sandwich curing concrete between two panels of foam, that sounds like you're just asking for trouble.
And what do you think curing is? Sandwiching it actually makes it much stronger. Ever seen concrete being sprayed with water after it set? Why do you think people do that?
Yet people have been building with ICF for decades
@@Concreteshoplife so mad
@@denverbasshead and we know how that goes
@@ioda006 yea, it goes fine
Self interest advertising. That’s why the framed homes on wooded areas burn down to the ground. ICF is a great build and will save energy costs among other benefits. Your way is your choice. Misleading.
1 floor ICF ,2 floor wood. that is good
Im confused! If you mix concrete correctly water DONT evaporate! right amount of water produces masses of needle-shaped calcium silicate hydrate crystals which bind together around aggregates and sand to give the concrete its strength!
i worked many years in concrete companys, and on say small house builds pouring say floors we used say tarp ore wet sawdust ore poured water on top of the drying concrte if it was a sunny windy day so that the concrete sholdnt CRACK IF THE WATER EVAPORATED TO FAST SO THAT THE CONCRETE GOT DRYING CRACKS.
I bet if you get moisture problems AFTER you have buildt a CORRECT ICF room is that you havent added WENTS ENOUGH! 😁
In a SEALED ROOM even the evaporation from a human is enough to make water drops on the walls. hehe
Not to mention the temperature difference between day-night and the difference in air moisture!
Notice what happends if you say take a COLD bottle out of the fridge, IT CONDENSATE the moisture in the air almost in seconds,
And same will happend with the termal mass in the walls IF ITS NOT WENTED CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO LOCAL CLIMATE.
Yeah, I think the that part of the video misunderstands how concrete needs humidity to cure and becomes stronger.
Basic competence is required to build - huh? ^^that Does sound sketchy^^. A draftsman can draw these plans and any ICF maker offers the specialty details. The industry has experience, but by all means let the labor decide the efficiency of your home. We built a 4400 SF 3 story house for same budget as stick built w/ R50 walls that had electric co. inspector guarantee $60 / month to heat & cool. This guy probably has a nice corvette or bass boat.
You just don't use ICF because you don't have enough confidence in your work and trades.
ICF is vastly superior to any stick framing.
Why you think building in timber frame or brick is better? ICF for long term tenancy, solid construction, energy efficient and many other bonusues - so much negativity - really?
So basically use a reputable builder and architect that builds with icf and you are good. Want cheap go stick frame. Want forever go icf.
Stick build should be against the law as this is not a real house. You get 50k in materials and charge 400k for what is a cabin really. You can't call a house some structure that is easily torn apart by stong wind and evan larger hail. People, don't listen to these so called builders, build your home of real material like concrete, stone, iron and brick. These guys are not builders, they are just carpenters that extremely overcharge you for bunch of cheap and not reliable wood. In the rest of the world the carpenter comes to the finishing stage of the house, he is not the main builder like here in the US. ICF is revolution, especially for the US.
at the start and at the end he tells you all the advantages are major the disadvantages are minor - but he is just not competent and if you find competent people its the way to go - not surprising - people put down and are scared of new things and fight change - even for the better. human nature.
Traditional building mechanisms in the USA are garbage. The house becomes a tinderbox, they are subject to every insect known to man, they are also subject to moisture, wood rot, you name it. If I can find a builder that will do ICF then I will do ICF on my next home.
So the bottom line is "You're afraid" to build a quality air-tight envelope that'll save $$$$$ every year for the next 5+ decades because it's a bit more work to find subs...