Why Old School Comic Fans DUMPED DC & Marvel
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2023
- Wes and Eric Breen talk about why so many old school comic fans dropped comic books. DC and Marvel Comics got what they wanted, thousands of loyal customers stopped supporting them. Unfortunately, the better customers they wanted aren't buying Marvel and DC either. What would Marvel and DC have to do to get their old school, loyal comic fans back? Why did they dump Marvel and DC in the first place? Wes and Eric explain why real comic fans dumped DC and Marvel Comics.
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The reason why fans dumped marvel & dc is because they started catering to people who don’t read comics
Imagine going into a steakhouse you loved for decades but where the new management only sells "veggie steaks" now and continually lambasts carnivores as being terrible people. Imagine how quickly that business would go out of business.
That is exactly what is happening. This is why independant comics are becoming so successful. They respect their readers, and they make fun stuff. That's all anyone wants.
@@01What10 And the indies must know who their target market is and cater exclusively to them. They don't have the luxury of being a loss leader for a massive parent company that can offset the losses of a comic publishing division with revenue from some streaming service or theme park. DC and Marvel literally have no incentive to produce anything anyone actually wants.
I'll give the woke comics fans this much, they're quite active on leagueofcomicgeeks. There's a lot more of them out there than I originally thought, and they're loyal readers. I don't like it, but I can respect that they're at least putting their money where their mouths are (the one's that aren't pirating anyway). Having said that, there's still not nearly enough of them to sustain an industry, and it's absurd that they're being catered to.
@@ShadeDraws Precisely. I get the feeling though that after all the hits to the wallet these big companies have been taking these past several years, even all that extra is starting to wear thin.
Even companies like Warner Bros. and Disney have a limit. I think that is why we have seen some of the downsizing and cuts to some projects, lay offs the past couple years. The pandemic hit a lot of these entertainment companies hard, losing out on lots of Box office revenue, and merchandise revenue.
Didn't Disney just fire a bunch of people recently?
We didn’t leave them. They left us.
Bingo!
I think one of the biggest problems is that the attachment to mega corporations like Disney and WB have given them a false sense of security; that they're too big to fail.
If they were left to fend off on their own, you'd probably see them sing a VERY different tune to stay afloat.
I don't know about that. My guess is they're betting on fans being loyal to the brands/IPs.
People like me, who have been X-Men fans for most of their lives for example.
More like, the attachment to Disney and WB make them do many changes to adapt to their programms
Like Disney with marvel is a big example
@@marcosvarsano6262 The people creating/publishing DC/MARVEL comics have blatantly said they are going to change the brands that the public recocognizes. Deliberately. The "brands" are not the same, the "comic creators/publishers" don't really care about the brands, and people are starting to see it.
AMEN
100% these are no longer comic book publishers but product placement marketers
Modern comics prove why having continuity guys like Roy Thomas and Mark Grunewald are so important.
God I miss all star squadron and squadron supreme.
I mean most villains keep 'escaping' so unimaginative hacks can pay rent.
couldn't agree more. But this isn't really new.... it's been a long time in coming (since the late 80's?) newer writers removing continuity/ putting down continuity, going for "dark /grim/gritty" for everything, using "event " stories, or company wide stories, even when the mini series aren't that good or needed (one of the few truly great cross company mini series, that functioned as both event, had a superb story and served multiple true purposes, was Crisis On Infinite Earths - while some subsequent event stories had some good element, for the most part they were just a cash cow for the big 2. ) , starting over comics from #1 over and over again, rebooting universes and continuity over and over again , have been going on for years. New writers have come in over the years to put "their mark" on a series or character, for good or bad, now you have the over corporatized element of tying into toys, and tv / cinema..... not bad in of themselves, but in the wrong hands, and over used, .... and tying the comics to these things, then it brings the comics down. There are also the business sides to this too...... DC and Marvel used gimmick elements during the 90's to sell their comics (alternate cover art, gimmick cover elements, over saturation of popular characters, among other things), DC and Marvel severing ties to newsstand markets, Diamond buying out their rivals over time....... everything has helped to shrink and weaken the industry. You have newer writers now, wanting to put in their own takes on things...... I think the writing has gone down the tubes, and I don't really recognize most of the characters anymore....... but what we're dealing with , has been a downward spiral that has gone on for a very long time. The newer writers and editors and publishers are forgetting the older fans who kept the industry alive for decades, try to bring in a new fan base that isn't there / could care less / never liked the medium..... and at the same time, pushing away older fans...... they'r putting the final nails in the coffin. I fully expect the industry (in terms of comics) to more or less collapse over the next 10 years or so.... the big companies just want product to sell , so they'll make their money much as DC / WB has done w/ Mad Magazine over the past several years..... reprints only. I had gotten away from comics between 2005-2017.... then tried again from 2017 to today. I only buy a handful of comics from Dark Horse, IDW and Marvel. the lack of quality (honestly the writing is horrendous) , and lack of reverence for the earlier / original comics is quite apparent. I don't know how long the industry is going to last.
@@christophermosca4547 completely agree with all that too. Things gradually declined after Jim Shooter, picked up a little in early 00s. But 2015 was the year Marvel changed overnight. They don't even pretend to hire people that know the stories or lore anymore. Art styles are dictated by unhinged Twitter puritans who'll never go near a comic if their life depended on it. Editorial standards and continuity are nonexistent. Contempt for actual comic fans is palpable. Vilifying those fans for completely imagined exclusion that never happened seems to be their only goal. Over time the same cultural vandals who destroyed Marvel moved to DC too.
Yes. This is the key point. Without continuity, why would you read Marvel or DC over indies? Indies are far far better for self contained tight stories meant to end conclusively.
It's just like wrestling, I watch the old stuff.
NWO?
@@cheeseburgersuperior1874 the NWO was cool. 👍:-)
Same. I always say the great thing is we have years full of wonderful stories we can go back to.
4 Life, brother.
@@cheeseburgersuperior1874 You know it. 👍
I have been reading comics for almost 5 years now and my solution to finding great comics these days is reading back issues. I mostly read back issues of Batman from Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Ed Brubaker, and other great writers that just write a two part story and done.
The best stuff is the old stuff. I actually met Doug Moench back in 94...dude looked like Charles Bronson...really cool guy.
To quote a wrecked show…”This is the way”
That's what I do too. I don't buy floppies because they aren't worth the price for what I'm getting. I stick to trades and larger collections of past stories I haven't read yet, follow the discussion around the current stuff online, and then pick and choose what I'll engage with once they're collected somewhere. It saves money and brain cells since I've largely avoided bad comics. Now I'm trying to figure out what bande dessinee and manga I'd be interested in reading.
Exactly what I said.
@@AntiLifeEquation1 My friend, great minds
really do think alike.
Hiring people who hate your product to self insert themselves will never convince their peers to consistently buy it…
Hiring people who hate your product...
Why does that sound familiar?
@@thesupershinymegagengar2034 It’s interesting that its Japan and Beer where we’re finally pushing back…
I KNOW, RIGHT !?
I collected comics for decades -- throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, even into the early 2000s, but I cannot bring myself to spend a dime on any of the garbage currently being printed by Marvel or DC.
Not worth it!
SAME HERE ! Just enjoy all of the back issues ! We don't need the new stuff ! Modern day superhero comic books are mostly crap & garbage !
Any indie comics?
@tomfink7505 Well said.
Cause the old stuff is light-years better than what we get now
Yes, why ARE we giving money to people who hate us?
Bc we dumb
The biggest reasons as many have mentioned. Catering no non fans, writing bad stories, changing the characters to behave how they want instead of how they should
"Why don't people rob banks anymore?" Exactly. If that happens in modern comics, the heroes will most likely be on the side of the robbers who are "marginalized" and against the "too big to fail" bank, which is insured anyway! "Not my job to protect corporate profits" --Batman
I can believe that, well outside of flash comics say what you will about a group going against a guy impossible to measure speed armed with a cold gun, flame thrower, living tar, a(in my personal opinion) better joker, and a guy with boomerangs.
They’re not pretentious and have enough self awareness to know it’s not about the money.
@@changvasejarik62 You’ve apparently never been robbed, have you?
@@basementbrotherscollectibles I have conservative views while living in California, go watch the maxx and come to your own conclusion.
In that order
@@basementbrotherscollectibles Live in a red state, or rather, stay in your burnt out city and never move from it. Reap what you sow.
@@basementbrotherscollectiblesif I am ever robbed, I know the superheroes will side with the burglar. "He needs money for meth"!
Erik is absolutely spot-on! THERE’S NO CONTINUITY!
Don't forget the younger readers as well.
Demon Slayer alone dominated the Western sales
I'm 39 and I had a blast with Demon Slayer. It's fun. I see why the kids love it.
Funny thing too is that Demon Slayer isn't that good. A very mediocre generic manga is somehow better than most of the modern comic industry.
@@Dr._GroovyDude You're right! That says a lot about the modern comic industry. Demon Slayer is definitely not ground breaking, but it doesn't have to be. It's fun. It's got crazy characters, a simple idea that can be played around with, and action. BOOM! You got a hit!!
I also have always liked Manga creators' attitudes toward fans and readers. They are all so humble and thankful for the attention. A far cry from modern American comic creators who are all so.... self absorbed, mean, and nasty to everyone.
I like My Hero Academia and One Piece better than Demonslayer 😂I guess I’m lame, but I read Demonslayer and Attack on Titan too. Gantz is underrated, but I’m not too far along in manga rn. I’m a normie status with that stuff and probably always will be. The Beginning After the End, Spy x Family, and Solo Leveling have been cool too…Manhwa/ Webtoons.
One Punch Man, Chainsaw Man, hell there's even a Manga about a super powered Rooster called Rooster Fighter that's a better superhero book than anything Marvel and DC have put out in years.
I stopped buying new monthly DC and Marvel in the early 2000s. I got back into the hobby a few years ago, but mostly buy Manga and graphic novels now. There's so much great stuff coming from Europe, Japan, Korea and indies in America.
The business model of DC and Marvel doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. There's no consistency and nothing matters. It makes no sense as a potential new reader to even get onboard.
I want new interesting stories with new characters and a knowledge that each story I invest in will have an eventual resolution.
I mean, in that time there was also a lot of good stuff
The real problems started at start of 2010 with downs but also many ups
The problem is the post 2019 state
Early 2000’s? Most people dumped them around 2010
@@Bolbi145 I didn't wait that long. I had two kids by the early 2000s and money was tight. Comics were the first thing to go.
I was going to make a comment but you basically said the same thing. Congrats on finding things you enjoy to read.
@@ShadeDraws understandable, and noble
One of important things is how hardthe writing fall in this years,
If only rebirth could have lasted forever
As a collector since 1984 & content creator based in Saudi Arabia, I am investing my time and money in educating audiences about what was produced by both publishers up to 2010
From that point onwards, if I come across a series which caters to us ‘old school’ comic book readers, I collect it but so far they haven’t been too many. I can literally count them on my fingers
2009 for me…similar situation but different location. Sorry to hear about the “fractured fandom.”
Same for me but a bit earlier collecting since the 70's and left later in 2012. It's such a shame. I thought I'd be 80 yrs old and still buying comics. I'll have to check your site out.
Ed Brisson's Iron Fist run is an okay run post 2010
@@cmleibenguth thanks. Will check it out. I have enjoyed Ed Brisson’s works, too especially Ghost Rider
Started in 1974. Stopped in 2001.
Never regretted it. Also stopped watching and supporting NBA, NFL and MLB. Costa Rican futbol is my new sport.
I will not give my time and money to things that hate me.
Things change… evolve…mutate. Audiences, styles, preferences and so on. What don’t change are the fundamentals - the principles that make changing styles and such always work for changing audiences; the things that made Marvel and DC great, and kept them great for decades. Marvel and DC have forgotten, or tossed out, the fundamentals of good illustrated story-telling; putting in their place the conveniences of simply using whatever cheap mediocrity will provide them in the moment.
There’s plenty of great, seasoned illustrated story-telling talent out there, both old and young - all more than able. Barely few of them, however, are getting the jobs - and paid what they’re worth - to make comic books shine and worth their price and time.
Marvel Comics and DC Comics haven’t been Marvel Comics and DC Comics for years.
I've been reading Amazing Spider-Man for almost 30 years ( I have a near perfect ASM collection).... but I stopped caring (not just reading, caring) Zeb Wells is going to Hell for what he did to MJ... at least I'm saving a Boat load of money
Yeah how marvel is treating MJ in recent years is literally sad
I think the problems are the writers who just want to mess things
And the editors that just doesn't want spider man to grown up
@@SubZero-hs9xc Spider-Man has the worse editorial and writers on the planet he's their biggest character but easily makes up their worse story list
Thank you the faster that dweeb wells gets fired the better
@@retronerds6884 X-Men editorial and writing team has Spider-Man beat…shockingly
Do you mean to say that you’re not going to give it “one more day”? 🤓
There’s many reasons why we are leaving:
Constant continuity retcons & reboots
Legacy characters replacing the classic ones
Over pushing of agendas
Too much forced and patronizing representations
Sexuality changes & race swapping of characters ( Drake syndrome)
Obnoxious new characters that are supposed to be ( supporting) yet they over shadow the hero and ruining the story ( Jay nakamora )
"Constant continuity retcons & reboots" Marvel has never rebooted their 616 universe, in fact it's because of that it's so hard to get into Marvel. DC the last real rebbot was new 52. that was 2010. before that it's 1986. that's twice in 30 + years. stop repeating talk points from youtubers and think for yourself.
@@bigz2008 I severely disliked the idea of the new 52 reboot and stopped reading around then. Not because someone else told me to think that but because I took serious issue with the idea of the legacy characters I grew up with being erased. Like wally west's legacy. He was my flash and was unceremoniously removed from continuity. He had truly stepped out from Barry's shadow and had reached new heights. Dc rebirth was even essentially a tacit acknowledgment of their colossal fuckup in the removing of character relationships and legacy characters.
Most modern stories aren't even written in a way where you need the past 80 years of comic continuity. In many cases, modern stories shit on and ignore past precedent, lore, and history. That isn't even referencing soft reboots or retcons to character origins. Sometimes it just happens because the writer wasn't aware of something that'd come before.
People can have their own opinions and I'd wager that most ppl familiar with the universe prior were unhappy with the change. Doesn't mean they're simply parroting someone else's talking point. Especially if those that read prior and disliked the new 52 reboot outnumber those that read prior and did like the reboot.
@@bigz2008 do you even read the comics ? Marvel retcon their stories more times than I can mention here , just look up the many stories from spider-man alone and you’ll see what I mean , as for DC , your track record is a bit off , here’s the many times DC rebooted or changed their universe :
Crisis on infinite earths ( 1986 )
Zero hour ( 1994 )
Infinite crisis ( 2005 )
Flash point ( 2010 )
Convergence ( 2015 )
DC rebirth ( 2016 )
Doomsday clock ( 2017 )
Dark nights death metal ( 2020 )
Dawn of DC ( 2022 )
Do your homework before you open your mouth , boy
Nothing wrong with Legacy characters. If they are well written, fans like them (Jamie Reyes, Wally West and Roy Harper are good example). But the problem Is that the current crop of legacy characters suck and only exist to pander to a non existent audience.
@@RichardAcevedo2814 I feel like Wally West is the character who got it worse in DC after flashpoint, he was pretty much replaced by a race swap character, fan’s outrage led to DC saying that ( this wasn’t the Wally West , it’s just a relative who happens to have the same name) then they brought him back in rebirth only for them to do ( heroes in crisis) showing how much they hate the character
Marvel is doing the same thing with Mary Jane, trying to ruin her character and keep her away from Peter and making sure they’ll never get together
I’m begging to think they have something against redheads
I miss old school comic book industry.😢. Marvel and DC comics should do other stores beside of the superhero comics like Manga.
They did before the wokeness era. DC had Vertigo and Marvel had the Max.
This is why I have mostly just been buying DC and Marvel trades from the 80s, 90s, and a few from the 2000s because it was where the big two's were at their peak.
I like 60s and 70s DC too 😂 mainly just Supes and Bats tho.
80s until New 52 is my fav. Finally, “forget you, Bendis”
When you ignore true comic book fans and cater to non-fans with virtue signal headline grabs, you're just feeding the law of diminishing returns. True fans leave and the people you're trying to pull in only care about the media coverage but will not buy the book.
so new readers are not real fans? Isnt the same kind of complaint that is made every decade or so?
@@hellsonly8908 New readers have the potential to become fans if they stick around. If they only buy the one issue because of trending media coverage but don't return month after month, then no, they are not real fans.
@@vfrebel6166 Yea lets not deal with the reality of costs. Also being a comic book reader and fan mean you must buy a book each month in it of itself. Its like saying you could not be fan of wrestling if you dont pay for the paperviews. Also this bullshit line of trending media coverage is tiresome. Comics are part of the media. the genre of superheroes can be found outside the specific medium of comic books, in tv, movies, toys, video games. And again the big variable that plays here is always going to be the money. It was easy to buy comics in the 90s because the price was manageable. Nowadays its not not for adults let alone for kids. All of you are so stuck on this delusion that outside of the inclusion of gay and trans characters in comics as well as how stories are played out nothing else can be considered in how the comics industry is presently operating.
@@hellsonly8908 You did a lot of mental gymnastics to blame other factors outside of the garbage stories. The writers lack talent and do self-inserts and virtue signals, sacrificing the story in the process. Price could play a factor, but I hear the new Clark Kent Superman is selling well when the Jon Kent Superman wasn't. Not because he's gay, but because the stories were only focused on his sexuality and relationship, not the action superhero comic readers want. Same with the Tim Drake Robin. The inclusion of gay and trans characters wouldn't be a problem if not for the fact they make it the only focus which turns off a lot of readers. There is an audience for this, but it is not the average superhero audience who want action, plot, conflict, character development, etc. Also, there's the race and gender swap nonsense. As a Black man, I don't care if a character is white or a woman, or whatever. Just give me a well developed protagonist and antagonist. I don't need to "see myself" in a certain character. That's for mental weaklings with low self-esteem and victimhood mentality. I can relate in many other ways due to the human experience.
@@hellsonly8908 When decades-long fans that have spent their adult life investing time and money into something they love are walking away each day, you have to ask yourself why this is…
It’s not because they made a character trans or gay that wasn’t that way for decades. It’s bc the people creating the product now hate their target audience, have absolutely objectively demonstrated that, it has been objectively proven, and now we are in a gaslit relationship of paying for low-quality products by people who say we are the whole problem. We, the fans, are walking away bc the industry has abused us. It is obvious. They only thing left for them to do is walk around con’s and give us wedgies, swirlies, pin us and knock on our chests, and shove us into lockers. And they would if they could and laugh about it.
Of course, you could dismiss all this and just say “shut up nerd, incel, go cry some more, etc.”
The apathy just washes over my person when folks like you enable the absurd behavior of the comics industry.
Very few people actually read the comics. If it wasn't for speculators and people who just buy the book for the cover art, Marvel and DC would be gone already.
This right here. Right on.
Burnt, you're wrong about there's not not many people reading comics,
Variant covers: the original NFTS
@@jamesortiz3425
Nahhh…they won’t report the sales they’re so low.
Collectors started all this crap. Don't read just buy the books with silver or gold or whatever covers. Readers stopped reading because it all became about collecting. Of course none of you will believe me. More controversial the higher it might pay off. These people are bi..ing are probably still buying hoping they find the next peice of crap oh whoops gold
I stopped buying Marvel back in 2016 or 2017 and Bendis's run on Superman pretty much made me rage quit comics until 2022. I think a lot of people in my age range started getting into manga instead because if you were born after 96, your saturday morning cartoons were anime and there's still a craving for comics.
If you’re born before 1996, you also may be checking into manga at this point too 😂
Here' why I dumped modern comics for the most part (I still collect GOTG and Daredevil): The constant renumbering ruined the back issue market, the huge decline in artwork and story telling, and frankly $3.99 is too much to pay for a fragment of a story now.
I fortunately have an All-Star LCS that offers 25% off pullbox items. I still am having to cancel titles bc of price and poor quality.
I read the big two will never hire superstar artists again because of how they all teamed up and walked out of Marvel 30 years ago to form Image comics.
@@Spongemonkey26 Tell that to Jim Lee, haha. Granted they weren't as popular as McFarlane or Liefeld, but Ed McGuinness, Gary Frank and Ivan Reis were certainly recognizable names when they were at DC.
@@keithoneil9894 Jim Lee was one of those superstar artists who started Image though lol.
@@Spongemonkey26 I know. So it isn't like DC completely stopped hiring superstar artists.
Three weeks ago, for the first time in almost 30 years, I have officially stopped buying MARVEL comics (I gave up on DC a while ago).
Now I just stick to INDIE COMIC BOOKS.
Sean-ito me too, more so because of the freaks taking over the writing!! 🤗
ME just this week. I actually wrote Marvel an email, hit send, said to myself, “they don’t care,” and then decided to leave 😂
Selling off my 2009+ comics but I’ll keep the stuff before when Stan was still around.
DC is hit or miss. Marvel is basically gone with me. I will be reading the doom of Spider-Man that is Zeb Wells in 25-26. Mostly bc it’s a trainwreck and I wanna be there to watch it. I’ll probably quit ASM after the dumpster fire 🔥 🗑️
Which means…just me and the OG Doctor Strange bc Alex Ross covers. Very mid title tho.
When your comic industry is believing the force is feminine or wanting to be the next Alan Moore is the biggest problem.....and so when series or character change happens in DC or marvel the writer runs the same play to get a touchdown and if they fail it because "insert name calling" is the problem not them....
The vast majority of the money I spend on comics now goes to back issues. Any comic book I've never read is a new comic to me.
To quote a dead Star Wars property “This is the way”
💯 same..
Silk is on her 5th volume already....obviously Silk isnt popular enough to carry a title...Silk should have been a supporting character this whole time building her own character up to where she gets her own title about now...the current Silk volume should be her 1st volume
Every time I see a solicit for a Silk reboot I laugh. Ahhh yes another 4-5 issue run…MAYBE it’ll work this time
@6.04: "GET GOOD WRITERS." As Stan the Man would say, "'Nuff said."
"they've lost sight of supporting cast, the continuing stories, the subplots.... the reason they don't do subplots anymore is that they can't guarantee the writer is going to be on the book long enough to carry them out,....the solution is to get good writers and keep them" Couldn't agree with this more, but he said it himself later in the cast. I've shut out the big two for so long I had no idea some of the veteran creators even came back for some projects recently. It's just too late for some of us. I do my best to follow good creators into other ventures, but f*** the big two.
I agree with Breen In Zeb Wells run.Marvel destroyed the ending of Nick Spencer after undo Sins Past and engaged Peter and MJ relationship again because they just cannot allow both be a couple and be happy again.A big SCREW YOU to old readers. DC And Marvel just don't care about the old comic readers and and prefer to prioritize a new generation that doen't care or read comics.Meanwhile mangas and indies books sales increases more and more each new year. I just cannot to see a future to the Big 2 in the next years.
Facts and now look we have one of the worse Spider-Man runs since the slott days
@@retronerds6884 Yes,but Wells was the worst Spidey writer in New Brand Day Era.I never had any hope that him do something worth.
@@EvandroACruz you're not wrong on that if you find a way to be the worse writer on that shit stain as bnd then you truly suck
Captures the whole problem. "Why don't people just rob banks anymore."
Robbing banks was good story telling back in the times when there was a real world chance that robbers could get away with it in real life. That hasn't been the case for decades.
@JayLucien I agree with your point as well but stories like that could be told. The universe or multiverse does not always have to collapse. Heroes can save normal people and not always T he world; though that can be a good story too. Gotham does not have to be taken over every 6 months.
We could use at least a year of superheroes fighting bad guys in the streets after 2020-2022
It's funny to see some of these ideological idiots who happen to be CB fans do mental gymnastics as to why older fans left. You either have scarlet lettering with the ist and phobes or the time and tested tactic of gaslighting("Your comics you always liked were always political.") not realizing we have eyes; we know that comics have had a political element to it , the thing is HOW it was written which was more nuanced and oh yeah; there was a story. It's the equivalent of having someone shout your personal views with a megaphone as opposed to being subtle about it or having a nuanced position. Denny O'Neil's Green Lantern and Green Arrow comic for example.
But yes; let's just ignore that fact and many others. I'll always have a love of comics, namely indie stuff, and a few recent Marvel and DC titles, but it's back issues for me of older, good stuff. And I don't think I'm alone in that reasoning.
Well said. Couldn't agree more. The writers of the past used the characters and story to meditate on various political/social issues of their times. Sort of how old Star Trek used to tackle complex morality struggles and ideas through their storylines. (I remember one specific TNG episode called the Drumhead that really sticks out in my mind.)
These modern comic writers don't seem to understand how to play with an idea like those writers of the past. Explore it's different angles and perspectives in a nuanced way.
I miss writing like that.
“Go home, Commie”
-The guy who punched Hitler on his first cover…
R.I.P. Jack Kirby
Example green latern/green arrow of the 70s commie and republican. Privileged commie and by the book space cop
Great talk gents!!! My beloved X-Men are an abomination to me nowadays. I cringe looking at them. Revulsion in my guts. It's very hard looking at them. Ive been reading uncanny X-Men since 200. But since since this woke agenda got injected to both dc and marvel, I've stopped collecting. None of this woke writers/artists can hold a candle to any great writers/artists from 80s, 90s, and even early 2000s. I'm fed up. I switched to manga/anime/indies. Even manhuas are are better written and illustrated than any woke shitshow writers/artists in big2. Big2 brought some great names of old, but it's not in continuity. I just want a gaddam great stories with great art in comic books of big2, it's goddamn too hard to ask for!? Big2 management are part of the problem as well. Please, please, please, take me back to the 80s n 90s. Mabuhay!
Just read Uncanny X-Men 274-275, 281, 305…randomly. What a difference in every way to modern 🗑️
They follow that 'Dragon Ball' syndrome- where, every major event has to be world ending.
Eric Breen and Aaron Sparrow are two people the industry could learn a lot from.
You're not wrong.
Eric Breen walking away from comics shocked me. I haven’t heard from him in a while, and I had no idea. Disappointed to hear that, but I understand.
@@basementbrotherscollectibles Just the big 2 in continuity . I still read some Indies and still pick up tons of Back Issues .
That's because dc and marvel decided to go woke and began hiring activists who don't care about the fans or the source material and end up bastardizing our favorite characters in the name of "diverseity and representation" which is not important and calling fans terrible names for not liking their woke comics
You're absolutely right, when they put those freaks in charge of writing comics I got into independent comics and that's were I'm at now 🤗
@@jamesortiz3425 good
Define woke
@@sup3414 social justice messaging,lgbt propaganda,feminist propaganda race baiting stories depicting christians and conservatives as villiains race swapping,gender swapping and sexuality swapping
lol Marvel (and DC) material started sucking LONG before the word "woke" was even a thing. If you never picked up on that you have shitty taste in comics.
The Breen is back!
One modern problem is also how they sponsor their project.
I think you do more sponsor for them about the comics you like than the conpany themself
They seriously gave more market to things like "i'm not starfire" To genuely good comics they printed in that period
Marketing: I’m Not Starfire > Action Comics
😬
"Bold and daring" (Meaning everyone is now a black transgender 15-y old female genius)
"Subverting expectations" (Meaning that they do away completely with the original stuff)
"Adapted for a modern audience" (Meaning no fights and lots of navel exploration)
Both old school and current fans left when there was drastic changes in the writing and when people asked question the creative insulted them then manga comes along the mangaka a thank and respect thier fans for investing in the work cause it’s good and their humility is endearing to the fans their humble their not stuck up they accept anyone’s praise
We still have DECADES of back issues from DC, MARVEL, and various other superhero comic book companies with great art & stories to look back on ! We don't need any of the new stuff which is mostly crap & garbage !
Some of it is crap.
Some is garbage....
And some, is BOTH.
Total= 100%
Love seeing Breen back on the channel.
Love Jeremy Adams Flash...it's next level good.
I don't trust Marvel/DC...if I come back I believe it would be fruitless. I believe they'll just go right back to their garbage ideas.
They have shown that they no longer want my money.
Nice seeing Breen back on the channel
Been reading attack on titan and American comics has nothing that even comes close to that level of storytelling
Chomp chomp chomp
Great interview
Big ups Eric Breen 😎👍
Breen!
Man, I miss seeing Breen! Thanks for the great conversation!
*DC & Marvel are in a Catch 22 scenario because of long term Fans. We may be the problem!*
Fans want to keep the characters they love, as they’ve know them to be from the start. Yet, they demand new stories and dislike anything that would appeal to new readers from a NEW generation. So, it’s either more of the same characters and stories we’ve seen a million times, OR new characters and story lines that don’t fit the mold of what long time readers are used to. Essentially, fans are a huge part of the problem. Some hate new stories, new characters, and any character development they’re not familiar with. Other fans, are tired of the same stories with the same characters but hate new characters that don’t measure up to the classic ones. The new readers are caught in between, and lose interest when the reset button (crisis) is pressed, and they have no idea wtf is happening anymore. Me, I am caught in between all of these descriptions, my biggest issue is DC & Marvel pandering by creating new characters that replace the classic ones, without ANY kind of meaning (except sales). i.e. Jace Fox/Future State.
I really enjoyed your conversation with Breen
Appreciated seeing this. I feel everything you all discussed. For example, not sure how giving Wonder Woman a father or brothers has strengthen the character. I never thought she needed Hercules origin as she already interacted very well with all the mythological gods. And she was the last time it was even a major story point that she has brothers? Let’s not even get started on breaking the entire universe every five seconds.
I do not mind some of the new characters, but these new characters would benefit from being in support roles for years- not just their introduction to replacing the core character.
Some of the best stories were Terror of Trigon, Who is Donna Troy, the Mutant Massacre, the Muir Island Saga, etc which deals with characters, family dynamics, interesting ways powers work, etc. please give us character development which includes supporting casts. Deathstroje was more intereswith Wintergreen. And stop Willy Nelly killing supporting cast characters or simply not using them!
Thanks for this topic discussion!
If they ever decide to make comics fun again I might start buying new ones again, but enough of the restarting series at number one over and over again. I say do it one last time to get things back to square one and swear they'll never do it again for forty years. For right now I just collect the old stuff.
Sounds like Disney Marvel/Disney Star Wars
I completely ditched all my comics January 2022 & totally switched to manga. I was getting 45 monthly comics at the time, 25 were DC & the rest was Image, Dynamite, Boom, Mad Cave.
As soon as I read manga and realised just how much better it was to the gibberish on the pages of American comics it was a no brainer to drop everything and switch.
And I’m never coming back, even if they completely ditch all the nonsense they’ve been pushing for the last decade, I’m just too happy reading manga. They just can’t compete with Berserk, it’s so far beyond their skill that it’s actually funny.
A common story…dipping my toe into manga currently. My buddy showed me the typical stuff back in the day…Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, DB, DBZ, Gundam, Pokémon, Sailor Moon, Studio Ghibli, Full Metal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion or w/e that name was. I love MHA and One Piece, which is so normie, but I like what I like. It makes me laugh in the purest way.
All-Might is so funny to me, and I even watch the Anime.
Berserk is good too, but it sucks homie died. (Kentaro Miura?)
Gantz is underrated. I really like it.
I am lame and reading the Legend of Zelda manga.
I also read Demonslayer, Attack on Titan, and Deathnote bc everyone has read those.
Same with Naruto and Bleach (I always say NAR-oo-toe and BLEEEEEEEE-otch in an exaggerated fake-samurai yelling voice)
I also yell “One’d-uhhhh-PEAHHHHCE” ✌🏼 🇯🇵 ✌🏼 and do the hand signs bc I am lame.
I don’t think I’m the right fit for this fanbase 😂
Manhwa/Webtoons:
TBATE
Solo Leveling
^^^These are sold at Target 🎯
One Punch Man and Chainsaw Man are popular near me too, but I’m not into CSM and OPM basically means I’m done with Supes, which I’m not.
Still like Bats, Supes, and Spidey bc I’m a normie, but it’s mostly back issues.
I’m a normie fan with the “them there Japanese Animations and them Mahn-Guhs that read backwards-like from American 🇺🇸 “
BLEAAAAHHHHHHHHHchhhhhhhhhhh
One’dddddddd-uhhhhhh-PEEEEEAAAAHHHHCE!!!
because it's $10 of nothing.
I left enough comments for anybody who reads them to know how I feel about this new age big 2 comics. Can't wait for that new Conan from Titan on comic book day.
I read the pulps for Conan…REH and also Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan and John Carter…so imaginative
When Prego and Ragu decided to expand the customers of their pasta sauces they decided they wanted to keep their old customers. They did this by keeping their original recipes. Do you want chunky sauce? Maybe spicy? They had a flavor for you. However, if you wanted plain, it was right there for you as well.
They didn't take away your original flavor while screaming obscenities at you, they just took it all and gave you a quality product in exchange. They treated customers like customers and that made everything better.
So far my pull list consists of Alien, Predator, and Punisher. I don’t like the current Punisher run and Alien and Predator can’t hold a candle to its Dark Horse days. I’m only sticking with these three titles being a long time collector. Otherwise I can’t find another title in the big two that I legitimately enjoy and would recommend others to try.
Phillip Kennedy Johnson's run on Alien was very good I thought, not sure about switching to Declan Shalvey as writer though...
I’m in a similar boat with different titles. I made the decision this week to quit collecting bad titles. So I’m done with She-Hulk and Spider-Woman. Amazing Spider-Man is more of a clinical study at this point. I’m tracking a crime scene with each murdered issue. When I get bored, I’ll stop buying (I skipped most of Slott and Spencer).
Still reading Doctor Strange tho. It’s not great, but it has enough weirdness and cool art to keep me reading like I have for years.
I still read DC and have been liking about 1/2 of Dawn of DC. The other half has trash writers, so I’m not even picking them up. It’s not even on Rebirth’s level. It’s more like DC Afterbirth.
So far…
1) Action Comics
2) Superman
3) Superboy, Man of Tomorrow
4) Unstoppable Doom Patrol
Have been alright.
I’m also gonna try Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Shazam, and Green Lantern: War Journal (if it comes out). The rest no way.
Honestly, the reason why the "big two" is not getting their audience back, is largely because there are some outstanding Independent Creators that are producing quality content that audiences can get behind. Social Media has been a great source for promotion and galvanizing and audience that excludes the "middle man" or "gatekeepers" as they say, and allows these creators to interact directly with their audience.
Maybe it's time for DC and marvel to combine forces and create something new.
MARVEL & DC are all-in with their current content/direction, and they would not know how to create something "new" even if they weren't.
They don’t even know what is old or new at this point
There are large conceptual problems, but where marvel and DC fail the most is to just make the damn book in my hands interesting. Make the book I am reading RIGHT NOW not a chore to get through
Awesome work mate
Fantantangonism kinda worked for Captain America 25. But that was Brubaker, who was a proven commodity. The current run of creators do not have that acumen for that.
That was not fantagonism
@@deepfriedokra "Fantantangonism" is funnier, though.
@@ShadeDraws lol i didn’t even notice that
True, there is much to hate about Fanta. Lol.
I'm an old school comics reader and I heard about Jon Samuel Kent and Tim Drake being reinvented for a new generation and it caught my attention and I went and read those comics, then I collected their entire runs. Now I'm picking up more and more DC as there is interesting things going. That said, I do wish there were subplots, I wish the art were better on some books - i prefer Weiss and Sook. I didn't think i liked the artist for Robin: Tim Drake - but three issues in i'm like 'yeah' i get it and it's cool and enjoyable and offers a moment of escape. Marvel -- I dropped that with the Krakoa X-Men as it be came evident that all the things the x-men had stood for, being the book of the outsiders and outcasts were gone and now it's a substandard version of HBO's "House of Cards", or "Game of Thrones", or "Successions". I read superhero adventure for super heroe adventure. A bunch of heroes around a bit circle bitching, not so much. Maybe an issue, but now like 300 or how ever many have come out since Hickmen started the new direction -- The Krakoa is good stuff, but ti'ts not the X-Men - it ought to be it's own label or something in my opinion.
These new writers don't know how to write action. They have written issues where not one punch is thrown.
Turning heroes gay, awful drawings, movies aren’t told like the comics, secret identity has gone out the door, trying to change our heroes from the 60s, 70s, 80s, some early 90s. Too many Spider-Man, I can just keep going. Just sucks all the way around!
honestly for me the only books i am enjoying right now from the big two are Spider-Man lost hunt which I know ended Action comics and The flash by Jeremy Adams and Superman by Joshua Williamson and that's about it everything else I am taking a break.
Hey try reading rogue sun and vanish from image I thinky you'll like them
@@retronerds6884 I tried reading rogue sun and Raidant black when they first came out and honestly kind of lost interest with those series not because their bad they are not but they are just okay at least in my opinion.
@@TevyaSmolka damn I gravitated towards rogue sun cause of art and story but it's cool
@@retronerds6884 i can understand that
@@retronerds6884
It’s hard to get into an indie universe after two failed universes w the Big 2. I struggle with Millarworld even.
Am currently waiting on the Rippaverse to launch more frequently.
I think Eric nails it, at least for me. Marvel and DC keep doing all of these events, and it's just burned me out. I DON'T get excited about them anymore. The books I like are either single books or books that are related, but there are only one or two. I'm done with DC. But at Marvel, the books I get are Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Punisher, and Daredevil. Occasionally I'll go through a period where I read Venom and Carnage. But my utter hatred of Spider-Man under Zeb Wells has made me not really get those as much as I could, since they cross over too much for my liking.
I just feel like super heroes are a genre that is fun, but they've been overkilling it for decades. Too much of anything isn't good. But when there are fifty books a month from a company that are essentially the same story, those small companies' books that are their own thing start looking good.
Great to see Mr Breen back! Always uses his experience as a collector to provide wise insights.
Excellent video. You guys discussed a lot of the things that chased me away from comics.
Read Coffin Comic....
All Hail Lady Death
🔥🤘😆🤘🔥
Hail la Muerta
La Muerta : Descent was the best book I've read in a long time, plus I love Joel Gomez' art style👍
Best comment on this thread all Facts 👍👏
She got a new comic
My only regret is... I wish I had discovered Coffin Comic sooner...
The best way I find out about modern ongoing comics is YOUR channel !!!
A recent Batman comic had Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent on a date with Selina Kyle (Catwoman) and Lois Lane. They get refused entry to a club having a superhero themed night for not looking (dressed) like Batman or Superman. The artwork was four panels per page with no backgrounds. Don't forget, overwhelming computer coloring is another huge factor in making comics unreadable now.
Great to see Breen again! I got a fever and the only prescription is more Eric Breen!
What needs to be done is to recreate the comic book industry. Someone has to step outside the brand names and publish something that will appeal to the original base. It may mean abandoning the traditional characters, but only for a short time, by creating competition they may bring back the traditional characters along with the traditional writing.
So they are trying to top OMD ? Well what happens to collectors , when no one is interested in comics?
We need more Breen!
I guess I would be old-OLD school... because I started turning away from super-heroes comics in the 90s when everything became XTREME, deconstructed, and dark -n-gritty.
I'm a Bronze Age Baby. 😁
I haven’t bought a new comic since Ta’Nihisi Coates Black Panther #1. And I had a $30-$40 a week habit back when they were $2.99. I own 1,000s of books,but now I can barely read one.And that’s a shame.
Oh man…I relate. So bad it broke your love for the good stuff. Hang in there. Try to revisit the old stuff but stay away from the new until you heal.
I dumped them 3 years ago, I wished I’d dumped them after secret war/ before all new all different. I’ve got a box of crap I’ll never read. Now I just buy old trades to read the good stories. Even the 90s comics had more entertainment value than todays comics that dick whip you in the face with agendas
I bought all of the Hellfire Gala but didn’t read them until it was done…
Needless to say I was quite surprised to learn I bought an entire event of 💩
Fool me once…no more…
@@basementbrotherscollectibles I wanted to support my local comic store but I could no longer justify spending $60 a month on crap I was never gonna read.
I can't blame them.
What were the last comics i bought?
The ambassadors (mark millar independant company)
X-treme x-men mini (out of loyalty for claremont)
Batman/joker
X-men legends
Basically its out of loyalty for the old artist i loved.
Nothing new is worthy time
Same but I noped on X-Legends
I enjoyed this discussion. It is a challenge finding a good story that hooks you in long term.
Miracle man is the only ongoing i keep up to date with and thats only because…
A) Neil gaiman
B) Neil gaiman somehow made me a fan of young miracleman.
C) 29 year cliffhanger
@@changvasejarik62
I am not trying to clown you, but I have tried to like Neil Gaiman, and he is so overrated to me. He is a writer’s writer tho. I acknowledge he has talent. I just don’t care for most all of his subject matter.
@@basementbrotherscollectibles fair enough, what are your thoughts on Alan Moore in his prime?
One would think the retro stuff is done the way it's done because most of the creators don't have to put up with anything from editorial. They've made their money, like Levitz and Silvestri, and are in a position to just walk away if they dont like the situation. Most creators don't have that leverage, and things like substack aren't gonna change anything in the near future. WTF20
There is always DSTLRY 😂😂😂
Breen! Glad to see him back, if you’re out there you gotta check out the Millarworld stuff!!
I'm reading Night Club and Nemesis
Buying 80s & 90s comics that I missed out on. Much better story line.
We need a Dok-Breen Podcast.
For the past few months, I’ve been making several headcanons and timelines on how I should approach for a lot of DC characters (i.e. Superman Family, Batman Family, Wonder Woman Family, Flash Family, Green Arrow Family, Young Justice Hawkgirl, DC5G, JSA, Fawcett heroes, etc.) on this channel (and other comic book channels) to have a stable continuity because although a lot of DC stories are good and/or bad, the continuity is confusing in terms of what age each characters are or how many years each superhero has been active as well as when the story takes place.
I bought all the Crises in trades or back issues and just fill in runs I like between them. I don’t care for some of the crises runs but I at least use them for reference. It also helps me determine WHERE/WHEN I buy back issues in titled runs.
@10.12 This is my situation, I didn't know about the Levitz/Davis Avengers book and the Claremont/Larroca X-men book until they were halfway done. I have pre-ordered the trades this month however because I know these books will at the very least be competent unlike most Marvel ongoing books.
After a lifetime of reading D. C. And Marvel I left after seeing superboy kiss another boy! That's not what I like to read or see, I don't pay good money for that.
I grew up on comics, starting in the 80's and got out of them in the late 90's- early 2000's (for a few reasons). I loved them and still love seeing them showcased in the handful of YT channels that I follow, but I don't know if i'd return to collecting (especially with the way things have changed). There's been a few series that appeal to me these days, but I haven't gone back yet. There's so much I could say here, but in short I appreciate the content that you make. ~Eric
Always love to see the Breen!
What is there to come back to? Sorry to feel blackpilled, but the entire Superhero genre, the ones fans remember being a culmination of incredible storytelling ideas and tropes from the 1960's to the mid 90s, are no longer present in 2023. It's a genre written now by people who think superhero comics can just be whatever they want to write that day, but with superhero characters, or just self referential navel gazing. The masters are gone (or at least no longer being hired), the editors are just as complicit in the downfall, and so all we're left are disappointed fans who know the rules and the story beats, but just can't write and draw the damn things themselves.
So true. Superhero comics are their own genre, there’s an expectation, but very few of them actually read like superhero comics.
I don’t know, maybe I’m senile, but too often I’m left scratching my head and wondering what, exactly, was “super” or “heroic” in the book I read.
IDw comics won me over with Tmnt, Transformers, Mars Attacks, Ghostbusters and Gi Joes had great story's an easy to follow.
I stopped reading DC when Darkseid killed Batman and Batman came back. The New 52 ruined it all for me. Now I just read occasionally. I have about 1,500 and am now selling them off, now that I'm retired and 61. I've tried to read the newer ones after the New 52 flopped, and I just can't get into the stories any longer. Once writers start messing with the traditional characters whom the companies was founded on, it's game over.
I'm done with collecting comics, no more. I'm going to leave it in the past and just be content with the happy memories. I have really tried to get into modern day comics but they just leave me angry and frustrated about how terrible they are. The final straw for me is what they have done to the Punisher. CONGRATULATIONS Marvel/DC you have lost yourself another fan that has been following you since the late 80s 👏👏👏👏
I have been a comic book fan since 1973 when I read my first marvels greatest comics, fantastic four reprint and the images of the legendary Jack Kirby, Joe Sinnott and the writing of Stan lee sold me and cemented me as a life long fan.
But let’s be clear I am a fan of comics from the 1940’s through the early 1990’s and some In the early 2000’s. This crap woke alphabet people driven storylines is not the stuff I will waste my time in reading.
There is enough stuff I have not read in those 50 odd years that I can spend the rest of my life reading and never read everything in print. So so long woke garbage dumpster fire and hello classic 1940’s great stories where the men were portrayed as MEN. And in the 70’s- the early 90’s where WOMEN were shapely and sexy, super hot and desirable. Mmmmmmm mmmmmmm! Good stuff baby.
I heard that many Pre Crisis DC readers don't liked of the more dark and edge storylines of Post Crisis Era and stopped to read DC in the late 80's.This is true?
@@EvandroACruz I like Pre-Crisis DC. I like post-Crisis DC until New 52. Mostly Supes, Bats, WW vol. 2 Perez Wolfman, Grell Green Arrow, Johns GL, Swamp Thing, and of course Teen Titans.
I went to Dynamite Entertainment for my comics needs (Project Superpower, Masks, Bionic man, Buck Rogers and many more).
Thumbnail summed it up, they went from epic fights and Bane breaking Batman's spine, to Robin going Brokeback Mountain 😂