Are 600CC Super Sports Still Worth Your Money? | Aprilia RS660 VS Honda CBR600F4i
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
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600cc super sports have been the gold standard of sport bikes for a while, but in recent years bikes like the RS660 are making them seem kinda pointless. Is a 600 like the CBR600F4i still worth your money?
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00:00 - Intro
01:44 - Specs & Predictions
04:24 - First Impressions
06:45 - Twisty Road Test
11:09 - Swapping Bikes
20:03 - Which One's Faster? - Авто та транспорт
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Spike you weigh 60 pounds more than him, it makes a difference in the roll races.
Our weight differences are canceled out by the bikes weight differences. The F4i is significantly heavier
Do you think that a better exhaust system would make any better performance on the 4I ? It's got a muted sound!!
@@spitescorner When you are racing to determine which bike is faster, rider weight is a variable, bike weight is not. You can't claim one bike is faster than the other when there is a big rider weight difference. One of those bikes has a better power to weight ratio than the other, and is faster, when there are big discrepancies in rider weight, the which bike is faster test is completely inaccurate. Good video though, just wanted to throw that out there. EDIT: That's also not even taking into consideration rider size, not weight. A much taller/larger person is going to have more wind resistance, which also makes the test inaccurate.
It would if they swapped bikes? Otherwise it’s 2 engines hauling a bunch of of weight around lol
Spite, take a poop first to even out the weight
Mid 00s supersports are hard to beat. No driver aids, minimal emissions restrictions; just pure, unadulterated fun. I have a ‘23 CB650R and an ‘06 GSXR 600, and to my surprise, the Gixxer is almost more comfortable…and that exhaust note? 🤤
My 2023 GSX-R. Also no rider aids and an advertised 150 crank horsepower.
Keep in mind that the F41 ,though a bit underpowered compared to the other 600's from that era was the most popular stunt bike until the Kawai 03'-04'636 came out .They wheelie like a dream . I still miss my 02' . The F4i also has beautiful smooth fuel injection and very tough build quality .
I am addicted to old early 2000s Honda Fours, my 06 Blackbird tells me so. A Hornet 919 or CB400 SF is another excellent bike. The twins are very good - but ill ride those fours as long as possible.
Spite I'm so happy your channel is growing and the product looks great. Much love buddy
I love how both have all this praise to to the 660 but then both as soon as they crack the throttle on the F4I are like muhahahaha that inline 4. and thats the point, thats why i got the zx4rr all the sound and the feel but non of the scary speed to hear it.
I've booked one too. How does it compare to the usual inline twin supersports? Tell me more on the ownership experience?
Honda CB650R with 4 cylinders, 94 HP, 12,000 rpm also offers more chances to wring it out than the supersport bikes. Not as much as that new Kawi 400, though. Bet that is fun to wind out!
That 400rr is sub zero cool. I hope it sells really well
Picking up a ZX4RR next week for the experience not the outright speed. I have other V and parallel twins that are faster. But because screaming a I4 is completely different experience.
Zx4rr is a waist of money. You could get a couple years old 636 or gsx 750 for the same price. Or even an r6 if you want the top end. Zx4rr is a spec racing bike. If you are not spec racing then um… dont get one.
I love twins & I4's for different reasons, although I'd take a V twin over a parallel any day of the week.
If I'm out for a ride on an unfamiliar twisty road I'd take my Aprilia V twin every time so I can focus more on the road & still have heaps of fun, even if I'm not in exactly the right gear for the corner. If it's a road I know fairly well though I'll tale my I4 for the immense satisfaction & engagement of keeping it on the boil for as much of the ride as possible.
I would love a RS660 with a traditional Vtwin. That would be such a sweet bike, but the Ptwin is lighter. Give and take I guess.
@@spitescorner If AF1 ever get an Aprilia 750 Shiver in you should jump on the chance to ride it.
A v-twin is surprisingly complex and difficult to maintain compared to a P-twin or even an inlines four. You practically have to take the whole bike apart if it's a v-twin if you're doing anything that requires gas tank removal. There's a lot of engine that needs to be packaged inside the bike. In contrast, a p-twin is more like a chunky single; everything is easy to reach and there's a lot of "empty" space around the engine. If you look at a Tuono from the side there's a lot of places you can see through the bike.
Of course, you can choose the worst of both worlds; a V-four. Ducati's maintenance for valve adjustments is so high because the bike's engine has to be almost removed from the frame just to get under the valve covers.
I do find the general quality of modern bikes to be so much better than, say, bikes made 20 or even 10 years ago. When you got a new bike, you used to have to correctly torque the steering head bearings, and do so every couple thousand miles (most handling problems of guys going into speed wobbles on the highway are loose or tight steering heads). Now, you hardly even find loose steering heads even on bikes with 10K miles. The metal quality and bearing precision of modern bikes is just so so much higher these days. Of course, you'll smash up steering head bearings by wheelies...
By the way, Aprilia p-twins are infamously leak-prone but they can almost always be fixed by simply taking a torque wrench and gently checking all engine case screws. Then take a white magic marker and draw a line across the bolt to the frame. Check often, especially if you rev-bomb.
As to the choice of an inline four or an inline two… the two wins by compactness and rigidity but that is by sophisticated use of balance shaft and piston timing ( primary balance ) compromise of complexity trade offs. The Honda straight 4 if one looks at that long skinny journal crankshaft it surely lives only by excessive block mass to make up for its rigidity… but it is skinny journaled as high enough rpms bearing surface speeds start to be a limitation. Now similarly the balance shaft of the Aprilia means its block lives by excessive block mass to make up for the containing the vibration by stiffness stress strain curve of the block. ❤😂
A V4 makes a lot of sense… as does a narrow angle V2 … perhaps either with cylinder bore overlap maximized by minimal engine length possibly achieved with two main bearing very stiff overlapping rod journal crankshaft… it may be unusual maybe a rather strange fork and blade and/or master rod set up might be worthwhile complication to consider or not.
I'm 6'3", I own an RS660 and I love it. Super comfortable, but more the capable of tearing it up at the track. Wouldn't trade it for anything
6'3 here too, got the Tuono 660 as my second bike. I know it ain't as fast as a proper 600, but itll sitll blow your hair back while being very tame on regular roads during every day riding.
New Yammi is a lot more handsome and fun. Good find, Spite. We should keep him.
Mom, can we keep him?
He also doesn’t sound whiny and talk at 350 words/minute.
He also hasn't shit on anything automatic or three-wheeled.
He also doesn't say "bespoke" every other word.
Great review and compare/contrast with complementing reviews. I'd go for the Honda CBR600 F4I. You can buy one used for less money, I love the zing and wind up of the inline 4, and it's always satisfying to have to work for what you really want and extra satisfying when you get it.
(Referring to the powerband)
Loving your content my man. Just nerding out on bikes and getting out and riding. Makes me want to ride so bad.
Just saw you channel dude didnt know you had one! New sub glad your still on youtube doing your thing 🤙🔥👊
I think it would’ve been cool to see you compare the F 4 I to the CB 650 R.
I had a 2005 Ninja 636R, loved that bike. Back then, marketing and MotoGP was different, many bikes were developed for homologation, so bikes were developed more for performance than today's commuter buyer. Glad you pointed out ergonomics, back then I could handle it, now in my 60s I was forced to move to sport tourers just to save my back, wrists and knees.
people buying a 600 arent doing it because it's the logical choice :) lol it's about that scream and that's totally valid. cool to see the difference head to head and the progression of tech over time.
Fr, I'm trying to find a clean ZX6R, and everyone's like "It's expensive, it's uncomfortable, no torque" and I'm like
Okay...None of those are why I ride anyways☠️
@@Next2Null good luck on your quest. that's what's cool about motorcycles. they don't need to be logical or make sense to be great. many of the best are some of the craziest things you can buy.
Right so I have no idea why Honda wouldn't have a modern F41. Literally just give the CBR600 with slightly comfier ergo's and a different set of fairings lol
@@Next2Null Consider a GSXR 750-- you're leaned forward about 38 degrees compared to 44/46 for the ZX6 + more torque + avail everywhere and cheaper.
Yep that's what sold me on my cbr600rr. Pretty much any mid-sized sport bike has "enough" performance, but they don't all sing the same.
The moment you have a different look at the 4 cylinder things make a lot more sense. The 4 cylinder has an additional driving mode over a 2 cylinder which I call "smooth and quiet" at the bottom of the rev range. You switch it on by switching a gear up and switch it off by switching a gear down. So the real comparison is e.g. 2 cylinder in 5th gear vs. 4 cylinder in 4th gear. This is fair because the 4 cylinder has a wider rev range (rs660 up to about 10500, CBR600F4i up to about 12500 (for the example I took the rpm of max power which are easier to find rather than the max engine rpm)). So even if the 4 cylinder is reving 1000rpm higher it still has 1000rpm more headroom.
That said, today it isn't necessary anymore to have a 4 cylinder engine to get "enough" power for road riding. Modern 2 cylinders get there too. And they are a bit ligher, smaller and cheaper to produce.
Finally someone else has the same mindset that I do. My '09 ZX6R is the same way. Riding it below 7,000 RPM and it acts like a heavier 400. Ride it above 7,000 and you get the full 600 experience.
Not to mention how nice it is to have such a large reduction ratio in first that I can easily pull away from stoplights without ever coming off idle.
You would be surprised how smooth the twin cylinder from the bmw 1250 series is
600cc I-4 is the enthusiasts motor, keeps you busy working the gears and clutch. You work to extract the experience you seek, and are rewarded when you get it right. Seems like bikes are now trying to be so composed and easy to ride, which is fine if that is what you want. But a classic 600cc sportbike on a desolate backroad is pure joy, you chase the power and get aggressive and you feel like you accomplished something when you complete a corner with the power you wanted, at the speed you were trying to achieve. In the end, though, each person should ride the bike they like. Some might find the aspects of the 600cc I love, to be annoying to them.
When I have trouble sleeping I just think of a parallel twin motorcycle....
Lmao
In-line four 400cc*
Even Spite's best praise is: " It sounds like a v twin."
Have you ever ridden an mt07? Anything but boring especially with a pipe
@@bigounce4108 you know you could have just bought an 8 year old in-line 4 for the same price with twice the fun… but you keep coping bru
My old 73 CB 750 with 4 into 2 Jardine pipes had an awesome sound.
Awesome work on the Honda. It looks considerably less crusty than I remember. Sounds great, too. 👍🏼
I see the 660 is suffering from the rear swing arm boot rub where they stuck a stupid thin piece of plastic film in an attempt to stop you scuffing the swing arm... for anyone else with one, they did it entirely for looks. You can get a plastic plate that covers the same section for like $15 (at least, it was £7 from a dealer where I bought it in the UK so I am assuming it'll be $15 or less US) from the tuono 660 since it has the exact same swing arm and they cared more about practicality than looks on that one. You just stick it on with some heavy duty double sided 3M tape and it protects the swing arm from your boot infinitely better, and doesn't get the horrible black smudges.
Man, I loved my F4 (carbs). I did over 60k miles of touring in 3 years. I had some cash to spend and I switched to SC57 but F4 was a sweet ride.
I think the 660 platform does just fine for taller riders, granted, I ride a Tuono 660, not the RS. I'm 6'4", and it's an absolute blast, love that bike. And with an exhaust it sounds amazing
"- it just has a really nice rumble (vrrrrrrrr)"
"(WAAAAAAAAAAH) Yea."
14:46
Just about sums up the two engines for me.
That 660 is a great bike. I ended up with a Street Triple and have no regrets, but the Aprilia is definitely a better looking bike.
Why did you choose the Street Triple over the 660?
@deshawn4077 found a great deal on a low mileage 2022, and I'm a bit more confident about Triumph's build quality and overall reliability. It's a proper weapon.
Spite you should make a podcast like you used to do with that other guy back in the day I really enjoyed your motorcycle news segment you could even just do 10 15 min news set once a week or whatever. I just miss having some good motorcycle content to listen too when working, any suggestions from people?
In line 4 sound track for me baby! I do enjoy a good v-twin though. So far I'm not as excited by the sound or the vibration of a p-twin...
Nice vid! I do like the Aprilia but those scuffs on the swinging arm? Are they from your boots?
Pretty sure they're from when it went to the track.
@@spitescorner 👍
Put 25k, along with a handful of track days, on my Tahitian Blue '06 F4i over 4 years. The hit @ 8k rpms was something else and the riding position wasn't too bad for my 50+ year old knees. Really miss her!
Edit: Only nit I'd pick re: the comparo - A new bike with a modern suspension vs. an old bike that probably still has the original fork oil and hasn't been set up correctly does the F4i an injustice.
What did you add to the bike?
@@ceejay1364 Not too much - double bubble windscreen (made a huge diff at high speeds), frame sliders, Coffman shorty, and would swap out the front sprocket for a -1 on track days.
How is the reliability for the newer rs660s? Im planning on grabbing a new motorcycle for the season
Fun review! Now compare a new honda cbr600rr vs an Aprilia from 2001.. if there is still one running😜
what exhaust did the RS have on it?
I'm a RS660 owner and I agree with 99% of your impression about the bike. Regarding the accelleration test, keep in mind a couple of things: the bike is really sensitive to the rider weight and the result may vary quite a bit, I think you both tested the bike in Dynamic mode that has the middle throttle response in the settings. If you test the bike in either in Race mode or Individual with throttle setting at 1 you'll feel what the chassis was designed for. Peak power remains the same but it accellerates much more aggressively and would have give you a bigger advantage on the rolling start.
Last but not least, Aprilia released an update in the second part of 2023 that really smoothed throttle response for level 2 and 3, resulting in better response in the transition when you open the gas but a slightly slower accelleration
Is this throttle software update for all rs660 models or only the 23 model? This is my only criticism of my 22 rs660, if you are in dynamic or individual around town or slow speed riding, the throttle response is jerky / choppy and I usually resort to putting it back into commute mode
@@badassbiker78 Hi I have a '22 model as well and the update is for every model year. It's a software update that requires around 45 minutes and it really improves the bike.
I had the same feeling that you have in Dynamic and Individual (throttle map 2 and 1), now I feel very easy to ride around town in Dynamic and I use Commute mode only when I'm low on fuel. The update solves an issue that I had when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd gear in commute and dynamic. I haven't noticed any changes in Individual mode, throttle response is still aggressive and downshifting in second is not always working.
I live in Italy, so I'm not sure if it's a worldwide release, but I brought the bike for a periodical check at an official dealer and the software update was part of it.
The top end rush on an online 4 is hard to beat! I guess I'm old school now
Try something like a Superduke
Yeah the race right there goes to show why I like 4 cylinder bikes so much. But the 660 is an amazing package. I want to get one and upgrade to the rsv4 eventually. I think they are so cool and Italian. Like a two wheeled lambo.
what exhaust did the 660 have? ive been looking for one for my tuono 660 factory. so far ive found motobox and ziiv project that are the only opnes who make a good looking exhaust for the 660 platform.
Spike the setback on those F4i clipons is killing me lol. Set them out wider like the RS's to get more leverage and the front end will feel more responsive.
There's a little tongue on the clip ons that keeps them set there. I need to grind it off
I have a 2023 Suzuki GSXS-750 and my first bike, a 2013 Yamaha Zuma 125 and I always find myself ripping around town on my little Subaru WRX STI styled moped over my crouch rocket.
The exhaust appears to be the TT Racing stainless steel exhaust, found on the AF1 site.
Thank you for taking at least a moment to talk about engine vibration. For someone who isn't riding at 9/10 all the time on a track engine vibration is a pretty important thing and it seems like essentially no reviewers ever mention it. I find it completely baffling that it's not one of the first things that's talked about. A bike is fun and all but if you can't feel your hands and feet after 20 minutes it's kind of useless at least to me.
I would go for the Honda. I’m a middle aged Gen X’er and for me the late 90’s early 2000’s were the pinnacle for bikes for me. I didn’t expect the Honda to really be all that competitive at this point but I was really happy to see it.
Good video very enjoyable.
i love the rs and thats where id go BUT my heart still leans to those inline 4's! 😍
Everytime I think I'd love a sports bike over a cruiser I get on one, feel the discomfort and go naw. Honestly I wouldnt mind having one for a weekend toy, but I'd never get serious miles on it. A naked maybe, but man I like my back not being sore lol.
I have the Tuareg with the off road tuned version of this 660 engine, it's an absolute delight, most entertaining motorcycle I've owned
Low-key looking at a New-Old-Stock Tuono Factory 660 from the local Aprilia dealer in PDX for Wife. However she favors the Ducati brand and specifically the Scrambler models over Aprilia
Atleast make it fair and compare the rs660 to a modern 600. Not a almost 20 year old honda lol.
Hey. YES, they're still worth it. Keep in mind, the cbr600f4i WAS the supersport bike and was eventually replaced by the RR. The RR was the evolutionary step. The f4i was NEVER produced to be some detuned sport tourer. They just simply offered an Fsport and a standard until the RR.
I had been riding the 2 for all my life in riding, but when you get to the inline 4, the power is different, believe me the difference is ginormous, yeah missed the torque but on the inline you just need to live on the High rev range to get torque!
The problem with inline four is that it only wakes up after your second traffic fine. For normal street riding and light speeding the rs660 is probably much nicer. You can’t rev these things out every dag on normal streets.
Went from a 2005 r6 to the RS 660 extrema and love it. Sure I miss ringing the R6 neck but the RS is so much better for me commuting then when I want something to go balls to wall on pull the Tuono out
Honda (more fun, better sound, faster, longer and comfy) RS ( low end torque, all the nannies.) Spite ( RS is just a better bike) lol because it cost 10 times more
I cross shopped a new CBR600RR and a RS660, They both have their advantages and disadvantages over the other. I ended up getting the RS 660.
It's not pointless if you enjoy it
Exactly. I have 2 liter bikes that are bananas and the least practical machines, but I love them
We as a family are inline 4 lovers. I can't tell you how many times I started out with intentions of getting a different engine configuration, only to come home with a four banger. My son got a helluva good deal on a Suzuki bandit 600 a few years ago and although it's a good bike for him, I'm pretty set on liter bikes now too. I'm kinda considering the xsr900 but I can't help thinking that the MT10 would be a better fit for my dumb azz
Good to see u finally got Dan Bilzerian as a guest on your show. Didn't know he rode .... Motorcycles.
that street squid is cool AF
Have you tested the hornet 750? For me thats the best overall package. 75nm / 92hp
what would really be interesting is the F4I vs the cbr650r
The f4i would absolutely smoke that thang
@@colinharris9494have you even tested the CBR?
Cbr650r is a sweet spot indeed..Jack of all trades
Did he ever mention what exhaust was fitted to the Aprilia? I didn't catch it
It is the original standard exhaust.
The RS660 is what I want Yamaha to do with the R9 but I think it may end up being a much more aggressive rider triangle and no cruise control. Not near as streetable…that is if they ever make the damn thing. Yamaha please! That and an XSR 1 please
The xsr900 Gp got cruise control so the r9 should as well.
The " A LOT LIGHTER" part is not true thou... via spec sheet both bikes have de same dry weight, 169kg, 372 lbs. Ready to run they are 10 kgs apart, so a lithium battery would almost equalize running weights for the CBR. But i do admit that if you going full race built, its pretty possible that the Aprilia would go much lighter, as it has much more crap to shave. (Abs module and its parts, emission stuff, cats in the exhaust system, so on) >
But great vid as always... keep it up.
Where are y'all riding at? Looks like the Texas Hill Country
Except nothing will have the character of an inline 3 or 4. I have a '23 Z900 with full LeoVince exhaust and tune. I adore that bike. Granted its suspension isn't great in stock form. Holy cow is it fun. 130hp to the tire at 10,500rpm is incredible
You can tell yourself that the 660 twin cylinder is better when you are in the wrong gear all you want; it won't change the fact that if you know what gear to be in the I-4 is more fun. But your right 600 for the street makes little sense when there is a GSX-R750.
The Tuareg 0:13 my Wife likes because she has read many books about the Tuareg and been to Africa many times. I think it would be a great bike for her, and she agrees and she wants to try something before the Tuareg, like a Scrambler.
You are blowing up and I absolutely love it. Super proud to have discovered you on Scammy Noob and to see how far you've come in such a short period of time. You're actually beating Scammy Noob in views even with 10% of the amount of subscribers. Incredible job sir. Hope you enjoy all of the success coming your way 😊😊😊
The F4i was such a good machine Honda HAD to take it off teh market, wild
Just get a ninja 1000, inline 4 with full torque across the rev range 😉
Did they find out what the exhaust was on the Aprilia? Sounds really nice.
Its weird. The tuono and the rs 660 feel like they have good oomph in the midrange until you are riding alongside a bike that actually has 100-110 hp. But if you rev it out, it feels a lot quicker haha.
So would the Honda 650rr the modern version of the F4i?
Spite's Corner has now become the Squid's corner 😁
Nothing compares to the raw power and sound of an inline 4. The twin cylinder motorcycles was a huge mistake by the motorcycle industry
I like the RS660, but I can't stand parallel twins. V-4 is my favorite with single & parallel twins being on the opposite end of the spectrum
Trust me, the rs660 isn't your typical parallel twin. I came from the rsv4 to the rs660 and it feels and sounds very similar. The 660 is pretty torquey for a smaller capacity engine but rides fantastically due to the lighter weight. Definitely advise test riding one
2001-2002 the CBR 600F4i, was the sport 600 of Honda. In 2003 they made the first 600RR. And that shows, look at the acceleration.
I would go with the twin. My days of beating on a 600cc inline 4 was a long time ago. Give me some torque.
I noticed it was said here that the Aprilia is "a lot lighter".
In fact, the Honda weighs in at 168kg dry vs the Aprilia's 169kg.
In the UK at least you can get a used 00s 600 for about 1/4 the price of an RS660 - you could spend thousands on suspension upgrades and still be saving money overall. You'll probably habe a more reliable bike that will last longer too...
I want a modern one but with the inline 4 still in it. Kawi please
Nothing like an inline 4. And newer naked bikes give you good torque. Americans love things that work well like an inline 4 or an AR 15.
I have just got a honda f4 and love it
idk I feel like comparing these 2 bikes is like comparing a car designed for a course to a car designed for spirited driving
Wouldnt it better to compare cb650r with the aprillia?
I would pick cbr650r 2024 anyday...an all-rounder, looks so smart in red
So which one is it? Is it "More bike than you can ring out". or is it "Im not scared, I feel like I can use all the power? I feel like he pretty much said both in the same breath.
I had an F3. It was fun, but on the street it was mah below 5000RPM. It didn't make any power and you had to really rev it to get going in traffic. But any higher than that and it felt like an angry Chihuahua. Twitchy.
first street bike i rode when i was 18 or maybe 19 was an f4i and the first time i rode it i went 156 indicated on the dash. lol im lucky to be alive
Before i watch. Im gonna predict the the twin gets marginally better MPG and thats about it. Maybe the newer bike handles better?
Got a 2001 F4i and the money to smiles ratio is insane - and I'd be more worried about dropping the Aprilia, would cost a fortune to repair. But those aftermarket mirrors on your F4i are the fugliest accessory I've ever seen. Dayum!
Dude! Why don’t you have a fairings on the Honda 600??
Because they haven't come in the mail yet. My old fairings are ruined
@@spitescornerto be fair you should have pointed that out! People watching this video who don't know the F4i well might wondering what's with the looks. And it's a good looking bike fully dressed.
I bet that rs660 won’t be running like that Honda in 20 years though
I'm still waiting for a 400 parallel with a 270 crank on a super moto
I just split the difference and put down a deposit on a 2024 CBR 650R with an i4 and pretty nice electronics 😁
The RS660 is a nice bike but it'll just never really sound good. Reminds me of a Ninja 400 with a slip on unfortunately.
Upgrade the suspension on the f4i, its cheap and simple to do. A brembo master cylinder, lever and brake line upgrade makes a big difference as well. Also, of course, get some real mirrors and nice plastics on the thing. Spend a few hundred on the f4i's suspension and it feels lighter, corners with greater ease and is just far better than stock, even if the stock suspension isnt worn out. The f4i isnt the fastest bike around but it isnt much different than new 600s and itll certainly lay waste to a RS660 in corners or straights.
Anyone else recognize that deadend road? Seen it a thousand times.
Yes! I prefer the screamer!
The Aprilia is a great bike and obviously manufacturers see the demand for a sport bike that's got comfier ergo's and middleweight power-- so Yamaha...... R9???? The big triple's fill that void too with a fun high revving screaming engine over these more boring twins.
Additionally, the F4I could make a comeback... CBR600F4I modern IMO would sell. Riders actually like the screamy high rev over the low down torque in this segment.
Also as far as ergo's, even in traditional sport bikes this differs. Gixxers are relatively comfy and less committed and you sit in the bike so easy to clinch the core and relax on the tank I can ride those all day.... but Ducati's and R6/1 are torture racks.
I love the CBR Smoking Joe bikes so would take one of those