Quick correction: in this video we incorrectly stated that Adrienne Rich coined the term "compulsory heterosexuality." She did indeed popularize the term, but it originated in the 1976 Brussels International Tribunal on Crimes against Women. We do our best to give you accurate info, but we write the scripts in addition to our full-time jobs and responsibilities so we occasionally make mistakes. Wowsers, people sure do have a lot of thoughts about Clay! One thing we want to make clear is we don't claim to be experts on any of the topics we touch on, but we do a lot of reading and try to give it the old college try! That said, remember to be nice to each other in the comments, and we always welcome respectful debate!
I really like the idea of Angela seeing Clay as and giving him the love of eleven children; a child can't process that amount of smothering, and him giving in to the whims of whatever his mother wanted makes so much more sense. I hadn't thought of it like that before.
haven't finished this entire video yet but you have no idea how satisfying it is to finally hear a video essay that treats Clay's alcoholism like a disease and a psychological issue rather than something that makes him flatly irredeemably evil. Obviously Clay isn't a "good person" he's an abuser, but it's insane to me that people talk about him like a mustache twiddling cartoonish supervillain and not a complex broken mentally ill man. Also kudos for acknowledging that Stopframe stalked this man for years and isn't an unproblematic uwu victim I feel insane when people don't see this
Just a little note. Orel doesn't tell Clay that he (Clay) shot the bear. He says Clay KILLED it. I think those words were deliberately chosen, as not only does Orel not want Clay's approval, but he also thinks Clay is at fault for the bear's death, despite Orel having been the one to put the bullet in it.
I was a rainbow baby (my mom had around 5 miscarriages before having me), and while I haven't watched a lick of this show, learning about clay really hit. My mom over time became obsessed with wanting a child, she told me that when she was pregnant with me she "made a deal" with god where she'd give me to him if he allowed the pregnancy to go through. Soooooo you can imagine just how attached my mom was to me when I did survive, and how angry and abusive she became upon realizing that I was not everything she wanted me to be. My middle name is literally the name my mom would have given a son if she had one. She was incredibly attached to my hair and my appearance as a "girl", which as someone who doesn't identify with their assigned gender at birth anymore, definitely affected me in many ways. I was babied all my life, where even now at the age of 20 I still have this impulse to tell my mom everything and ask her permission for even the smallest things (when I don't even live in the same city as her anymore). Growing up I felt like I had to compensate for the five children my mom lost before me for some reason. So honestly if this show depicts an upbringing that's this REAL and complex, I definitely gotta give it a shot lol. Great video
I was a disappointment my whole life. I was supposed to be not autistic, go into the medical field and be successful as a nurse, and take care of my parents forever as their eldest “daughter”. Well…that didn’t happen. So after four subsequent miscarriages my mother did the same thing as your mom about her youngest. Imagine how proud she is now of her perfect daughter! Yuck. She always smothered the child, praising her endlessly just for breathing. Meanwhile, as a trans man who wants to be a long-haired high school biology teacher and who writes on the side while running an Etsy shop, I’m a huge disappointment - mostly beca I can’t handle the suffering people deal with when they go to the hospital. My father has NPD and I’m the scapegoat - that is, when I’m not invisible. She threw me to him to be abused when she finally got the baby she wanted after 12 years of miscarriages and a stillbirth, shaping her into the medical field prodigy she always wanted. My father was easy to get past since I was allowed to be angry at him for years. God forbid I’m angry at a woman who told me I was a disappointment multiple times in my life though. I still have a lot of anger to process, especially since whenever I put up boundaries I’m called childish and selfish, but once I’m graduated from college I’m gone for good.
Similar, but different. My mom didn't actually want kids, but felt compelled for religious reasons. As the oldest, and the one who "ruined her body" as a C-section baby, I became the natural scapegoat as I was the first to "trap" her in motherhood. I had to make up for this by being a caretaker to my youngest sister (the second was only a year younger). I was supposed to be either invisible and/or of benefit. As a child with ADHD (and early childhood depression, both of which were diagnosed), you can imagine how successful I was in this endeavor.
Damn, I felt this. I was also a child born after miscarriages and at the point when my parents were unlikely to be able to have kids. My mom loves the idea of being a mom and does all the “mom” things but never actually…communicates with me. I’m also 20, and for a long time I felt like my relationship with my mom was good because she did all the surface things I saw other moms doing, mainly cooking. She says it’s “her love language” but to me food has no association with love, so when I would get upset, instead of comforting me or talking to me at all she would just silently bring me dinner an hour later and leave. There was no desire for resolution or reconciliation, it was just expected of me to erase my feelings because they would never be addressed. So I did. And in senior year of highschool, right before I needed to choose a college, my parents got divorced. My mom was also a stay at home mother with no ability to get money on her own and she put that on me, seeing it as my job to have a relationship with my emotionally abusive father so she gets money out of the divorce. She didn’t even tell me about my learning disabilities and mental health diagnosis until she just randomly mentioned it one day, after I had dealt with years and years of bullying and othering from both classmates and teachers. I only recently got friends who were like “your parents are awful” because I always thought that “abuse” was something much more overt and severe than what I was dealing with (much moreso in my fathers case but that’s it’s own can of worms) and even so being mad at my mom is so hard because she always apologizes and acts all pitiful but when pressed, has no idea what she is apologizing FOR and will do the same harmful behaviors even an hour later. Communicating with abusive and neglectful parents is rough, I wish y’all the best, and to have people in your lives that tell you that you deserve better.
@@seasonsstarsstudiosI too am autistic and also have a very shitbag father who is easy to get mad at, especially around the autism thing. I remember clearly when he came to visit me in college last year he told me “I grew out of Autism” and I was just thinking like…..”bruh that is the most undiagnosed autistic cishet man mindset I have ever SEEN.”
This is my not defense of Arthur, but why I like him so much. My grandfather was a complicated man. He was an abusive drunk who hit my grandmother and belittled his kids. He was also a csa survivor, put down the alcohol when I (the eldest grandkid) was born and did not pick it back up until the final few years of his life when it was clear treatment for his illness wasn't working anymore. He was an excellent grandfather, he was kind, considerate and did his beast to teach us kids life skills like gardening and cooking. As well as making sure we had the knowledge that we did not deserve to be treated poorly by a partner, friends or family. I do not know if he laid hands on his children, I do not know the full extent of his treatment of my grandmother or of how awful his own parents treated him and his siblings, what I can say is that he did right by his grandkids. It doesn't erase what he did, or what was done to him, only that he tried to break that cycle (admittedly too late) Both men were shitty fathers and good grandfathers, and I love them.
He really is such an interesting character, there’s so much that can be said about him!! He’s a cartoony spin on abusive men yet he simultaneously manages to be such a raw and real character. I can’t even put into words how much this show and character has (positively) impacted me.
OH YAASSSSS, so great to see new “Moral Orel” analysis AND some fresh arguments to prove Clay is more likely to be gay, than bisexual, which view on his character I personally stick to too 🙏🙏🙏 Love this video-essay incredibly much! Thank you for your service to the fandom 😔🫀🫀
was watching this while drawing clay and i cried 👍 very hard 👍 clay has never been a good person but he’s always been a good character, he’s personally my favorite character and i went on a really long ahh rant about him to my boyfriend who knows nothing about clay or the show 👍 it’s 11:11 pm idk what im doing 😭
if/when we get a rev. putty analysis vid, I would LOVE to hear your guys' take on Narcissism episode. What we get on s3 really portrays him as a guy on the path to improving himself, and I think it would've been really great to portray that even as he's trying to improve himself, he is still a womanizing sex addict that has and continues to hurt the people of Moralton with his overwhelming social influence
@ exciting! I always found Sundays a very interesting episode in how it portrays the double standards of eating disorders between binge eating and purging, and how one is generally ridiculed while the other is praised in Moralton. As a result I didn’t love the idea that Florence would stop binge eating because of the incident with Putty, but I’m sure Stamatopoulos would’ve pulled it off great
Sort of unrelated but, at the first time of watching Moral Orel and seeing how Clay's character was portrayed and written was one of the first times I felt a bit called out or saw a bit of myself in a character at such a deep level (ashamedly). Also amazing video.
loveddd the video omg - loved ur purity and bloberta videos too! will say, adults can in fact groom other adults and i believe that that is what happened to clay, yes.
my theory is that ms censordoll was born intersex and her mother had them perform a genital surgery that took out the "female" parts, and then later (but probably still pretty young) identified as a woman
god i love this show so much, it’s made perfectly for me. enough allegory and implications to spark my interest, but ideas clear enough for my autistic brain to understand in depth what ideas are being conveyed without having to second guess too much
its really such a show, i can say so much about it (which doesn’t typically happen to me with fiction (having such complete certain ideas that i can express them without worry)). like if things like this are too on the nose i’m uninterested but if theyre too vague i’ll miss them, but when its like this i can talk in depth about the show and its themes and ideas and small details and symbolism and… etc etc because i don’t miss any basic ideas and i actually care enough to think in depth about it! for me theres only a few bits of fiction like this, so it’s fun when i get to like media so much with such ease
in my mind clay moves back with his dad to get a connection with him and growing to be a better person and thriving to a better dad to orel in his teen years and he lives happily with danielle and fights his addiction with alcohol and myb age regresses to cope w all the childhood trauma his mom put him through and bloberta lives happily to w someone who loves her for her thats the ending in my head after all
I do NOT think clay should be with Danielle. Danielle literally tried to destroy the family of a man to get in his pants, I’m for a maybe Clay redemption but Clay x Danielle wouldn’t be healthy
I’ve never watched Moral Orel but my friend recommended it to me and ur video on purity culture was the first I saw on it. Definitely gonna watch the series now but just wanted to say these videos are incredibly well made and insightful and are my new obsession! Keep up the good work queens I love these sm
i’m gonna be that bitch that comments before i’ve seen the whole thing but whether or not this is mentioned i still think it’s important to comment this. i’m a lesbian but the more i’ve interacted with bisexual individuals, the more i believe that it’s wrong to imply comphet only applies to people who are homosexual. it’s definitely a different type of comphet but it would be wrong to say that bisexuals do not feel compelled to date someone of the opposite sex because it is more desired by cishet communities at large. i mean this is even seen in bi women that date only men. there are multiple aspects of this but the main aspect is that it is much easier to date men than it is to break out of your comfort zone and figure out how to flirt with women. i’m commenting this because i got to the point in the video where comphet is mentioed. i do not know if it is discussed further later in the video but i still think this sentiment is important. this is not to discredit the argument that clay is gay rather than bi.
Hi I’m one of the people in the video, I’m bisexual as well, I personally don’t care how we label it but that wasn’t the conclusion we came to in the video. We all definitely understand that every queer person feels pressured by society to pursue a heterosexual relationship, the “different type” you mention in your comment is heterosexism. That’s all, we’re in agreement :)
@@laurenpaus7608 I want to say also thank you for your allyship :) it’s very nice to see someone who isn’t bisexual seek to correct what they perceive as misinformation about us. That’s very kind of you ❤️❤️
hell yeah! i didn’t want to imply that y’all didn’t think that but i know it can get disregarded in comphet discussions so i thought i’d just leave it in the comments 😅
@@laurenpaus7608 No worries! We’re happy to have the discussion I just wanted it to be clear to everyone that it’s definitely not about exclusion, just clarification
I also think that queer people at large have felt pressures to date the opposite sex whether or not they're attracted to that person because it's what they're "supposed to do". ik the whole difference is that compulsory heterosexuality vs heterosexism but I feel like they're not very different in the end. I'm bi, but I still tried to be the man I thought I was supposed to be by trying to have a wife and kids one day. I don't want kids and I wouldn't have been happy in that life, probably wouldn't even have been happy with that wife, because I'd be living someone else's life. dunno if this makes sense or was just a little rant for extra perspective
Wanted to say that uh I've been loving your guy's videos! I love videos that are just super long and have a discussion about certain topics within the show! Thank you! But I wanted to add that in 1:05:10 that anyone can get groomed, while it is more common and eaiser- for an adult to groom a child and such. But, a groomer can groom a person who's the same age or even older than them! So, in a way; Yes, she did groomed him and took advantage of his regression. She preyed on his vulnerability and emotional needs in regards of his mommy issues(?) to gain trust faster so she can manipulate him and get what she wanted from him. Like a couple things that I think she did? It's been awhile since I've seen the show- but a few common grooming tactics that I think she did in the show was 1. Building a relationship that creates a sense of trust and special connection. I guess relating to the bar scene. 2. Manipulating the victim's feelings with her montherly additude. I think there was a scene where she guilt him and such?? And 3. Testing his boundaries to see how far she can push and get away with it. Pretty much what she does when wanting to be mayor instead! Again, I haven't seen the shower in like- 2? 3? Years- so I can't remember exactly what she does- but again! She's manipulating his vulnerable feelings with mom stuff to get what she wants from him. Sorry if I get anything wrong! Do take it with a grain of salt haha. I possibly have forgotten things or messed some stuff in the video that is probably important- but yee!
Agreed! Grooming has to do with power imbalances, which is why the most common instances of it are when an adult grooms a child due to the obvious power imbalance between both people. But, even though both clay and her were the same age, he was in a vulnerable position, and she took advantage of it
@@_b_e_a_n_s_ I am with ya! It is a common misunderstanding that only is it could happen between an adult and kid- so I do not blame them for thinking that was the only way, haha. Let alone other types of groomings like financial grooming- though on Google it doesn't even mention those other types of grooming besides the same sëxúáI grooming. So it's even hard to find other types of it.
I recently got into moral orel and have been analyzing the show on my own since none of my friends have watched the whole show so im glad to have found this channel i love the way you guys analyze the characters and the shows themes in depth, keep it up !
Breakfast of Champions is my favorite Vonnegut book. Only glaring omission from the list of best Vonnegut in this video IMO. Thanks for saying Mother Night though, that one gets forgotten a lot and it's probably the best out of the more grounded Vonnegut work. Movie wasn't terrible either actually. Not like the Breakfast of Champions movie, that was bad enough to be disrespectful to Vonnegut.
Lauren here! Breakfast of Champions is a great one, it’s just been quite awhile since I’ve read it. Also I’m glad you appreciated the Mother Night shoutout, it’s an underrated gem!
Love these!!!! Moral Orel is my favorite show and a podcast surrounding it is genius because there’s so much subject matter to base each episode of the podcast around. Great idea yall!!! And you guys do such a good job ! Love it !keep it up!!!!! Praying for a revival of the show tho o(^_^)o
dude- i told my dad that clay reminded me of him- and my dad took it as a compliment- i told him to rewatch it and he did and he said it was a compliment- wtf
Clays dad is a character that I hate. And I feel like people praise him for being “morals dad that stepped up.” And…that’s the thing- I wish Moral could stay with him. But not for his sake- for Orels. Aurthor doesn’t deserve Orel, it just happens that he damaged his son bad enough that he’s now damaging his grandson.
The whole younger brothers being more likely to be gay thing is wild. Wonder if thats why my younger brothers are both aroace, because my mom had a bunch of miscarriages after she had me Probably not, but still an odd thought
Its not a given, the average percentage is 2%, and even 10 male miscarriages only bumps the odds to 57%, which is wild but it's so unlikely for anyone having that many unviable pregnancies to carry one to term, and even more unlikely for all of them to be male. And even then, there's still a 43% likelihood that the son is not gay.
Its more that ther is more likelyhood, but ther is no definitive, and maybe younger siblings can, or gay people have siblings with many kids, but thats more guessing and who knows what factors play onto it. Maybe younger siblings have less pressure too? Ther are no sudis that i wouldnt take with a salf of grain to be honest. But its common, To the point that the youngest brother in some culture is designated a feminine role in society? To be clear thats just a common thing and nothing definitive or that scientific per se. Its just really statistically way above the average. And if its more about chances really that can go still anywhere.
Clay really is one of my favorite kinds of antagonists; complex enough in circumstance and themes to discuss for hours on end in the ways he reflects and portrays our reality, but also abusive and intensely vile enough to really stimulate a personal kind of hatred in a viewer.
Also I think Danniel perusing him first is a major reason as to why clay is attracted to him because Clay sort of thrives and craves that attention because from what we see of clay and bloberta in the show, she kind of just ignores him. In my opinion clays sexuality or rather what makes him feel attraction is mostly based on how much attention the other person can give him and I think that’s why he originally did get along with bloberta in the beginning because she was giving him that attention
Couldn't his attraction to Danielle also due to the fact that "Another life" could be produced vs Clay and a woman? Had Clay had an "outside" baby, that's just another responsibility one way or another.
Unfortunately we had some technical difficulties and lost a lot of our recorded audio! We’ve finished re-recording but still need to edit. We should have the Bloberta video posted in a week or so 🫡
if/when you guys make an episodes about florence and dotty or just about the episode sundays i will cry so hard that episode makes me feel so many things... and if/when you do a deep dive on stephanie
Clay doesn’t have an excess of money because he has to spend it on his crippling Alkohol addiction. But on a serious note it definitely make you wonder how he is able to fund his gun and taxidermy collection as well as all his Alcohol, like it can’t be purely based on bribes and a mayors salary. Also unless I’m missing something it’s kind of wild that censordoll never ran for mayor before or some kind of political position before since her whole thing was controlling the town
I would guess too, hos drastic alcaholism makes him probably waste a looot money, unless he takes it as bribe i guess? But it has to be a big money drain. Know a relative that ... yeah drained a lot from not only himself. I imagine his alcoholism leeches a loooot of money . He does look barely functional enough to keep up a fassade either?! For real do deserve addicts that clay is a chance, but also tough love and not trusted with finances if they are not shown to be in a better place. Addictions can so fast drain money over the amount having it even. Him Being a barey functioning alcoholic who is , a wreck, and really that cripling alcoholism and addiction just makes him more impulsive else to his already issues. Thats why addiction does existing issues not forgotten away, it just makes it worse with a terrible spiral, to even more fall in extreme more dark holes. That said i highly respect people that get their shit together, own up and do even talk about it openly even more. That said it doesnt make him a terible person, he is, but it probably makes him even worse and more dysfunctional. To be clear he has no moral qualms to distract from his stuff to make it everyones issues and is very abusive doing so. Why worse probably.
I do think bojack horseman takes alcoholism seriously and showcases the effects it has on bojack and his peers/loved ones. To say that it doesn’t or that bojacks drinking to excess is not taken seriously because he’s a ‘horse that can drink a lot’ negates a huge portion of the show that explicitly explores the effects of bojacks alcohol and drug abuse and how he has “poisoned” his relationships around him almost exactly like what clay says in the bar scene in sacrifice. Bojack exhibits similar traits to clay in that he is crass/brazen with others, that he saw his parents drink from a young age similar to clays mom and he emulated that behavior, bojack has been seen blacking out, drunk driving, and making a multitude of bad decisions linked directly to his alcoholism and drug use. To say that Bojack Horseman doesn’t take alcoholism/alcohol abuse seriously is a blatant lie and there are so many episodes and moments from the show that contradict that notion. TLDR: Bojack Horseman does take alcoholism seriously as evidenced by multiple episodes and similarities are shared between Bojack and Clay developing alcoholism and how they are both affected by it. It seems unfair to put bojack in with Rick and Morty and The Simpsons when it comes to how alcoholism is portrayed in media.
I think you may have misinterpreted what they were saying- The show does explor3 bojacks alcholism but its really set dressing to his mental health and choices, whereas clay's relationship with alcohol specifcally is adressed to the point its almost a character of its own. It's done in two different ways and neither are bad or wrong. Can you pinpoint where it was said that BJ doesn't take alcoholism seriously? Rick and Morty/The Simpsons these things as well, just in different ways and in different amounts.
@@blossomentrails3398the specific part begins at 40:12 but I do see what you’re saying as well and I may have read too into what was said. The show(Bojack) mostly discusses his mental health and how his destructive behavior affects those around him though there are moments(most of season 4/5) that address his alcoholism specifically. I think what more or less irked me was hearing “when bojack drinks he’s a horse so he can drink as much as he wants and not really get drunk” which also struck me as very odd since we see bojack get drunk/black out a lot though he does usually do other drugs when he drinks. Either way I don’t think any harm/foul was meant by the people making this video and I’m glad we could respectfully discuss this :)/gen
@@blossomentrails3398oh and also at 40:34 ish? When they say “what does that do to a family, what does that do to your mental health” which I interpreted/perceived as them saying “these shows aforementioned do not do this/meet this criteria whereas moral orel does” which also struck me as odd since bojack(the show not the actual character) puts a lot of focus onto how alcohol affected bojack growing up as well as explored the alcohol dependency both his mom and his dad had and how he learned to drink at a very young age and how alcohol had affected him all the way until the end of the show. But as aforementioned in my other comment I truly don’t think what was said in the video was with ill intent towards the shows mentioned.
33:48 dissagree here. Clay is exeedingly rich, but he uses that money to avoid his family. Example: alcholism, obviously. But also the many exodic heads on his wall and the hallway of guns. But all the money goes strait into his study and himself and his ego. He only gets upset becuse it means less money spent on booze and meterial goods to numb himself, ironicly one of the only prominate idems clay buys is a lust guard to keep him and blowberta seperated. More in line with the idea of welth corrupting people thats super prevelent in the new testement.
The "he's too self aware" stuff does perpetuate stigma and misinformation. I like the video otherwise, and I get that a lot of narcissists aren't self aware. But plenty of people with egosyntonic PDs do have awareness that the way they're acting isn't ok, and don't know any other way of behaving. Its a stereotype that falls into the "if you were a narcissist you wouldn't be worried about being a narcissist" type thinking, which just isn't true
@@lambroastkenny-smith2301 Please listen to the section again, we did touch on exactly what you’re saying here and discussed that it’s not always true!
“It’s not necessarily to say that people with NPD can never have a level of self awareness but in some cases it’s an aspect of healing it’s not something that characterizes the disorder itself.”
Just a thought/connection... Sorry if you mentioned this in the video and I just missed it. The bar scene when Clay is ranting and Reverend Putty, Officer Papermouth, and Dr. Potterswheel (? I think that's his name,) they all seem like they're going to fight Clay, but then they decide not to and that its not worth it. There is a parallel between this and the fact that his father told him he wasn't worth it when he went to hit him. So again, Clay is receiving this message of not being worth it. I don't think I explained very well (I was struggling to put my thoughts into words) but I hope this makes sense!
Good material but i have some vonstructive critism in the audio: The mic quality should be imoroved, and the sound should be ballanced. Some segments are quieter than others. The music segments are way too loud and jumpscare me. The speaker is so quiet so i put the volume up then BLAM swerslut! So i can tell you are on call, recording other people thru your speakers. Instead, you should record as you do, but ask each speaker to recird themselves on their end, then send you the recording for edotong it all together .
I swear I read somewhere that the show's creator said if homosexuality wasn't so taboo in Moralton, Clay wouldn't be so into Danielle because the fact they have to keep their love hidden is a turn on for Clay. If that's true and I'm not just misremembering then I wonder how much Clay actually loves Danielle and how much of their relationship is just lust.
Hi, Wes here! There has been a big confusion about the term "Compulsory Heterosexuality" for years now due to the discrepancy between its original use in the 1976 Brussels International Tribunal on Crimes Against Women as opposed to Adrienne Rich's expansion of the term in her essay. The usage of "Compulsory Heterosexuality" in the Tribunal referred to an incident in which a lesbian woman in a heterosexual marriage underwent a conversion therapy session of several months consisting of being raped by her husband at the orders of a medical professional. What characterizes this use of the word is the fact that this treatment it was 1) institutionally backed and supported, 2) socially encouraged and 3) extremely violent and literal. Adrienne Rich expands on the term in her essay, arguing that all women in society actually experience Compulsory Heterosexuality because female socialization doesn't give you another option, and that heterosexual feminists don't interrogate their own sexuality in consideration of the power imbalances that plague their relationships with men. It is worth noting that under Rich's definition of the term, men in general cannot experience comphet because they have the social upperhand regardless of their sexual orientation. We are NOT using Rich's definition of the term. We are using the ORIGINAL term, designating a very literal, pervasive long term pattern of rape and sexual coercion in a marriage on the basis of trying to "prove" that someone's partner is heterosexual and not homosexual, ie incapable of attraction to an opposite sex partner on the virtue of them being opposite sex. That is exactly what was going on with Clay. When straight people are pressured to get into a straight marriage, that's heteropatriarchy. When queer people in general are pressured to get into straight marriage, that's heterosexism. When a homosexual person, who cannot enthusiastically consent due to the definition of their orientation, enters a straight marriage or otherwise tries to "convert" their attraction, that's compulsory heterosexuality. If you want to read about the version of the term where it only applies to straight, bi and gay women and zero men, Adrienne Rich's article is out there floating around, and it includes the horrific circumstances of the original coining of the term in Norway. Hope that helps!
Personally I think clay is attracted to women sexually that’s or he’s just willing to fuck anything We see clay reacting positively to censordolls flirting (if you can call it that) and to me I always say clay having some sort of attraction to Bloberta when they met. However I don’t think he’s into romance with women considering he’s more romantic with Danielle than sexual (it’s obviously still an aspect). I don’t have a label but I think clay is romantically and sexually attracted to men but only finds women sexually attractive if that makes sense
Quick correction: in this video we incorrectly stated that Adrienne Rich coined the term "compulsory heterosexuality." She did indeed popularize the term, but it originated in the 1976 Brussels International Tribunal on Crimes against Women. We do our best to give you accurate info, but we write the scripts in addition to our full-time jobs and responsibilities so we occasionally make mistakes.
Wowsers, people sure do have a lot of thoughts about Clay! One thing we want to make clear is we don't claim to be experts on any of the topics we touch on, but we do a lot of reading and try to give it the old college try! That said, remember to be nice to each other in the comments, and we always welcome respectful debate!
I really like the idea of Angela seeing Clay as and giving him the love of eleven children; a child can't process that amount of smothering, and him giving in to the whims of whatever his mother wanted makes so much more sense. I hadn't thought of it like that before.
haven't finished this entire video yet but you have no idea how satisfying it is to finally hear a video essay that treats Clay's alcoholism like a disease and a psychological issue rather than something that makes him flatly irredeemably evil. Obviously Clay isn't a "good person" he's an abuser, but it's insane to me that people talk about him like a mustache twiddling cartoonish supervillain and not a complex broken mentally ill man.
Also kudos for acknowledging that Stopframe stalked this man for years and isn't an unproblematic uwu victim I feel insane when people don't see this
he's SO horrible but there's just smth abt him that scratches an itch in my brain. he's awful.. yet really really fascinating.
It’s because he’s a complex character
That’s exactly how I feel!
He’s like a feral rat in a cage and we’re the scientists writing information about him
It’s probably the fact that there’s so many “straight” men
Hes all over my walls
real
W- what?
I hate him but I love him
Just a little note. Orel doesn't tell Clay that he (Clay) shot the bear. He says Clay KILLED it. I think those words were deliberately chosen, as not only does Orel not want Clay's approval, but he also thinks Clay is at fault for the bear's death, despite Orel having been the one to put the bullet in it.
Moralton University: The educational channel that teaches me more lessons than Clay’s belt.
I was a rainbow baby (my mom had around 5 miscarriages before having me), and while I haven't watched a lick of this show, learning about clay really hit. My mom over time became obsessed with wanting a child, she told me that when she was pregnant with me she "made a deal" with god where she'd give me to him if he allowed the pregnancy to go through. Soooooo you can imagine just how attached my mom was to me when I did survive, and how angry and abusive she became upon realizing that I was not everything she wanted me to be. My middle name is literally the name my mom would have given a son if she had one. She was incredibly attached to my hair and my appearance as a "girl", which as someone who doesn't identify with their assigned gender at birth anymore, definitely affected me in many ways. I was babied all my life, where even now at the age of 20 I still have this impulse to tell my mom everything and ask her permission for even the smallest things (when I don't even live in the same city as her anymore). Growing up I felt like I had to compensate for the five children my mom lost before me for some reason. So honestly if this show depicts an upbringing that's this REAL and complex, I definitely gotta give it a shot lol. Great video
Funny enough, while the circumstances differ I can relate to how you feel. Having a smothering mother is very traumatizing
I was a disappointment my whole life. I was supposed to be not autistic, go into the medical field and be successful as a nurse, and take care of my parents forever as their eldest “daughter”. Well…that didn’t happen. So after four subsequent miscarriages my mother did the same thing as your mom about her youngest. Imagine how proud she is now of her perfect daughter! Yuck. She always smothered the child, praising her endlessly just for breathing.
Meanwhile, as a trans man who wants to be a long-haired high school biology teacher and who writes on the side while running an Etsy shop, I’m a huge disappointment - mostly beca I can’t handle the suffering people deal with when they go to the hospital. My father has NPD and I’m the scapegoat - that is, when I’m not invisible. She threw me to him to be abused when she finally got the baby she wanted after 12 years of miscarriages and a stillbirth, shaping her into the medical field prodigy she always wanted. My father was easy to get past since I was allowed to be angry at him for years. God forbid I’m angry at a woman who told me I was a disappointment multiple times in my life though.
I still have a lot of anger to process, especially since whenever I put up boundaries I’m called childish and selfish, but once I’m graduated from college I’m gone for good.
Similar, but different. My mom didn't actually want kids, but felt compelled for religious reasons. As the oldest, and the one who "ruined her body" as a C-section baby, I became the natural scapegoat as I was the first to "trap" her in motherhood. I had to make up for this by being a caretaker to my youngest sister (the second was only a year younger). I was supposed to be either invisible and/or of benefit.
As a child with ADHD (and early childhood depression, both of which were diagnosed), you can imagine how successful I was in this endeavor.
Damn, I felt this. I was also a child born after miscarriages and at the point when my parents were unlikely to be able to have kids. My mom loves the idea of being a mom and does all the “mom” things but never actually…communicates with me. I’m also 20, and for a long time I felt like my relationship with my mom was good because she did all the surface things I saw other moms doing, mainly cooking. She says it’s “her love language” but to me food has no association with love, so when I would get upset, instead of comforting me or talking to me at all she would just silently bring me dinner an hour later and leave. There was no desire for resolution or reconciliation, it was just expected of me to erase my feelings because they would never be addressed. So I did. And in senior year of highschool, right before I needed to choose a college, my parents got divorced. My mom was also a stay at home mother with no ability to get money on her own and she put that on me, seeing it as my job to have a relationship with my emotionally abusive father so she gets money out of the divorce. She didn’t even tell me about my learning disabilities and mental health diagnosis until she just randomly mentioned it one day, after I had dealt with years and years of bullying and othering from both classmates and teachers. I only recently got friends who were like “your parents are awful” because I always thought that “abuse” was something much more overt and severe than what I was dealing with (much moreso in my fathers case but that’s it’s own can of worms) and even so being mad at my mom is so hard because she always apologizes and acts all pitiful but when pressed, has no idea what she is apologizing FOR and will do the same harmful behaviors even an hour later. Communicating with abusive and neglectful parents is rough, I wish y’all the best, and to have people in your lives that tell you that you deserve better.
@@seasonsstarsstudiosI too am autistic and also have a very shitbag father who is easy to get mad at, especially around the autism thing. I remember clearly when he came to visit me in college last year he told me “I grew out of Autism” and I was just thinking like…..”bruh that is the most undiagnosed autistic cishet man mindset I have ever SEEN.”
This is my not defense of Arthur, but why I like him so much.
My grandfather was a complicated man. He was an abusive drunk who hit my grandmother and belittled his kids. He was also a csa survivor, put down the alcohol when I (the eldest grandkid) was born and did not pick it back up until the final few years of his life when it was clear treatment for his illness wasn't working anymore. He was an excellent grandfather, he was kind, considerate and did his beast to teach us kids life skills like gardening and cooking. As well as making sure we had the knowledge that we did not deserve to be treated poorly by a partner, friends or family.
I do not know if he laid hands on his children, I do not know the full extent of his treatment of my grandmother or of how awful his own parents treated him and his siblings, what I can say is that he did right by his grandkids. It doesn't erase what he did, or what was done to him, only that he tried to break that cycle (admittedly too late)
Both men were shitty fathers and good grandfathers, and I love them.
He really is such an interesting character, there’s so much that can be said about him!! He’s a cartoony spin on abusive men yet he simultaneously manages to be such a raw and real character. I can’t even put into words how much this show and character has (positively) impacted me.
THANK YOU FOR OUR MEAL PROFESSOR
Babe wake up, Moralton University dropped a new course
babe wake up moralton university uploaded
For a moment I thought the ghostly sound at 5:13 was my mind flashing back to my own childhood with a substance abusing adult
OH YAASSSSS, so great to see new “Moral Orel” analysis AND some fresh arguments to prove Clay is more likely to be gay, than bisexual, which view on his character I personally stick to too 🙏🙏🙏
Love this video-essay incredibly much! Thank you for your service to the fandom 😔🫀🫀
was watching this while drawing clay and i cried 👍 very hard 👍 clay has never been a good person but he’s always been a good character, he’s personally my favorite character and i went on a really long ahh rant about him to my boyfriend who knows nothing about clay or the show 👍 it’s 11:11 pm idk what im doing 😭
if/when we get a rev. putty analysis vid, I would LOVE to hear your guys' take on Narcissism episode. What we get on s3 really portrays him as a guy on the path to improving himself, and I think it would've been really great to portray that even as he's trying to improve himself, he is still a womanizing sex addict that has and continues to hurt the people of Moralton with his overwhelming social influence
We definitely have plans to talk about Rev Putty, and you’ll also get to hear a lot of our thoughts on Dottie and Florence!
@ exciting! I always found Sundays a very interesting episode in how it portrays the double standards of eating disorders between binge eating and purging, and how one is generally ridiculed while the other is praised in Moralton. As a result I didn’t love the idea that Florence would stop binge eating because of the incident with Putty, but I’m sure Stamatopoulos would’ve pulled it off great
This video was more informational than Clay's belt lessons. Definitely earned a sub for this video.
Sort of unrelated but, at the first time of watching Moral Orel and seeing how Clay's character was portrayed and written was one of the first times I felt a bit called out or saw a bit of myself in a character at such a deep level (ashamedly). Also amazing video.
loveddd the video omg - loved ur purity and bloberta videos too! will say, adults can in fact groom other adults and i believe that that is what happened to clay, yes.
my theory is that ms censordoll was born intersex and her mother had them perform a genital surgery that took out the "female" parts, and then later (but probably still pretty young) identified as a woman
so glad to be in this class, were gonna be graduating from moralton uni guys
god i love this show so much, it’s made perfectly for me. enough allegory and implications to spark my interest, but ideas clear enough for my autistic brain to understand in depth what ideas are being conveyed without having to second guess too much
its really such a show, i can say so much about it (which doesn’t typically happen to me with fiction (having such complete certain ideas that i can express them without worry)). like if things like this are too on the nose i’m uninterested but if theyre too vague i’ll miss them, but when its like this i can talk in depth about the show and its themes and ideas and small details and symbolism and… etc etc because i don’t miss any basic ideas and i actually care enough to think in depth about it! for me theres only a few bits of fiction like this, so it’s fun when i get to like media so much with such ease
Intro was actually rlly fire
jumped up in absolute JOY seeing this notification. going to watch now 🙏
I’m so happy I found this channel I can finally rot in the moral Orel hole I’m in 😆🎉🎉
in my mind clay moves back with his dad to get a connection with him and growing to be a better person and thriving to a better dad to orel in his teen years and he lives happily with danielle and fights his addiction with alcohol and myb age regresses to cope w all the childhood trauma his mom put him through and bloberta lives happily to w someone who loves her for her thats the ending in my head after all
Me too. I need a fix it fic or whatever. I just sympathise with all the Puppington family members.
I do NOT think clay should be with Danielle. Danielle literally tried to destroy the family of a man to get in his pants, I’m for a maybe Clay redemption but Clay x Danielle wouldn’t be healthy
CAT'S CRADLE IS MY FAVORITE BOOK TOO! I LOVE KURT VONNEGUT. I LOVE SATIRE!!!!
Clay is so realistically bad, I love him so much.
I'm going to the time out corner now. Thank you for everything you all do, this series is fantastic
I’ve never watched Moral Orel but my friend recommended it to me and ur video on purity culture was the first I saw on it. Definitely gonna watch the series now but just wanted to say these videos are incredibly well made and insightful and are my new obsession! Keep up the good work queens I love these sm
That intro was so tuff for what
As someone who watched this show with my own father, the hunting episode was really uncomfortable lol
i’m gonna be that bitch that comments before i’ve seen the whole thing but whether or not this is mentioned i still think it’s important to comment this. i’m a lesbian but the more i’ve interacted with bisexual individuals, the more i believe that it’s wrong to imply comphet only applies to people who are homosexual. it’s definitely a different type of comphet but it would be wrong to say that bisexuals do not feel compelled to date someone of the opposite sex because it is more desired by cishet communities at large. i mean this is even seen in bi women that date only men. there are multiple aspects of this but the main aspect is that it is much easier to date men than it is to break out of your comfort zone and figure out how to flirt with women. i’m commenting this because i got to the point in the video where comphet is mentioed. i do not know if it is discussed further later in the video but i still think this sentiment is important. this is not to discredit the argument that clay is gay rather than bi.
Hi I’m one of the people in the video, I’m bisexual as well, I personally don’t care how we label it but that wasn’t the conclusion we came to in the video. We all definitely understand that every queer person feels pressured by society to pursue a heterosexual relationship, the “different type” you mention in your comment is heterosexism. That’s all, we’re in agreement :)
@@laurenpaus7608 I want to say also thank you for your allyship :) it’s very nice to see someone who isn’t bisexual seek to correct what they perceive as misinformation about us. That’s very kind of you ❤️❤️
hell yeah! i didn’t want to imply that y’all didn’t think that but i know it can get disregarded in comphet discussions so i thought i’d just leave it in the comments 😅
@@laurenpaus7608 No worries! We’re happy to have the discussion I just wanted it to be clear to everyone that it’s definitely not about exclusion, just clarification
I also think that queer people at large have felt pressures to date the opposite sex whether or not they're attracted to that person because it's what they're "supposed to do". ik the whole difference is that compulsory heterosexuality vs heterosexism but I feel like they're not very different in the end. I'm bi, but I still tried to be the man I thought I was supposed to be by trying to have a wife and kids one day. I don't want kids and I wouldn't have been happy in that life, probably wouldn't even have been happy with that wife, because I'd be living someone else's life. dunno if this makes sense or was just a little rant for extra perspective
I fucking love this show it's an absolute MASTERPIECE
Wanted to say that uh I've been loving your guy's videos! I love videos that are just super long and have a discussion about certain topics within the show! Thank you!
But I wanted to add that in 1:05:10 that anyone can get groomed, while it is more common and eaiser- for an adult to groom a child and such. But, a groomer can groom a person who's the same age or even older than them!
So, in a way; Yes, she did groomed him and took advantage of his regression. She preyed on his vulnerability and emotional needs in regards of his mommy issues(?) to gain trust faster so she can manipulate him and get what she wanted from him.
Like a couple things that I think she did? It's been awhile since I've seen the show- but a few common grooming tactics that I think she did in the show was
1. Building a relationship that creates a sense of trust and special connection. I guess relating to the bar scene.
2. Manipulating the victim's feelings with her montherly additude. I think there was a scene where she guilt him and such??
And 3. Testing his boundaries to see how far she can push and get away with it. Pretty much what she does when wanting to be mayor instead!
Again, I haven't seen the shower in like- 2? 3? Years- so I can't remember exactly what she does- but again! She's manipulating his vulnerable feelings with mom stuff to get what she wants from him.
Sorry if I get anything wrong! Do take it with a grain of salt haha. I possibly have forgotten things or messed some stuff in the video that is probably important- but yee!
Agreed! Grooming has to do with power imbalances, which is why the most common instances of it are when an adult grooms a child due to the obvious power imbalance between both people. But, even though both clay and her were the same age, he was in a vulnerable position, and she took advantage of it
@@_b_e_a_n_s_ I am with ya! It is a common misunderstanding that only is it could happen between an adult and kid- so I do not blame them for thinking that was the only way, haha. Let alone other types of groomings like financial grooming- though on Google it doesn't even mention those other types of grooming besides the same sëxúáI grooming. So it's even hard to find other types of it.
This is a really in depth view of Clay's character and goes into things I've never heard people take into consideration"!!! yummy video
I recently got into moral orel and have been analyzing the show on my own since none of my friends have watched the whole show so im glad to have found this channel i love the way you guys analyze the characters and the shows themes in depth, keep it up !
The icons are back with another vid!!
TWO HOUR VIDEO ESSAY THANK YOU. I needed something to draw to
This was really well thought out, great video guys! ✨👍
I live, breathe and sustain myself through this channel ❤
this hole is for me
Coach Stopframe?
My mom was an alcoholic for years and years until she hit her 60’s and it no longer appealed to her.
Thank you professors of Moralton University for keeping me company while I work/draw
Yesss new video essay
You’re so real for this
YESSSS THANK YOU MORALTON UNIVERSITY
god bless this came out at a perfect time
#NeedThat Freudian analysis of Moral Oral
Breakfast of Champions is my favorite Vonnegut book.
Only glaring omission from the list of best Vonnegut in this video IMO.
Thanks for saying Mother Night though, that one gets forgotten a lot and it's probably the best out of the more grounded Vonnegut work. Movie wasn't terrible either actually.
Not like the Breakfast of Champions movie, that was bad enough to be disrespectful to Vonnegut.
Lauren here! Breakfast of Champions is a great one, it’s just been quite awhile since I’ve read it. Also I’m glad you appreciated the Mother Night shoutout, it’s an underrated gem!
Love these!!!! Moral Orel is my favorite show and a podcast surrounding it is genius because there’s so much subject matter to base each episode of the podcast around. Great idea yall!!! And you guys do such a good job ! Love it !keep it up!!!!! Praying for a revival of the show tho o(^_^)o
Everybody shut up sit down moratlton university uploaded
You RE BACK!!!! ❤❤❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
dude- i told my dad that clay reminded me of him- and my dad took it as a compliment- i told him to rewatch it and he did and he said it was a compliment- wtf
heck yeah!! a new moralton university video :]
aw man they sent me to the study 😔
anyways rest in pieces clay puppington you wouldve loved femtynal
ok finally watched it to avoid being sent to clay’s study 😔
01:57:33 need a moral orel soundboard
Good luck babe! Comes on the radio and clay has another mental break down
37:04 NOOOO I WANT TO KNOW
1:57:05 oh god I am being aggressively called out
Please see yourself to the timeout corner so you can watch the show 😠
@MoraltonUniversity I apologize I'll get to it right away 😔
But in all seriousness I freed up time to watch the show tomorrow in one sitting 👍
Clays dad is a character that I hate. And I feel like people praise him for being “morals dad that stepped up.” And…that’s the thing- I wish Moral could stay with him. But not for his sake- for Orels. Aurthor doesn’t deserve Orel, it just happens that he damaged his son bad enough that he’s now damaging his grandson.
Damn it's sad that I relate to him
Hear me out on him…
The whole younger brothers being more likely to be gay thing is wild. Wonder if thats why my younger brothers are both aroace, because my mom had a bunch of miscarriages after she had me
Probably not, but still an odd thought
Its not a given, the average percentage is 2%, and even 10 male miscarriages only bumps the odds to 57%, which is wild but it's so unlikely for anyone having that many unviable pregnancies to carry one to term, and even more unlikely for all of them to be male. And even then, there's still a 43% likelihood that the son is not gay.
@MoraltonUniversity Yeah, I assumed it was more complicated , still an interesting idea.
Its more that ther is more likelyhood, but ther is no definitive, and maybe younger siblings can, or gay people have siblings with many kids, but thats more guessing and who knows what factors play onto it. Maybe younger siblings have less pressure too?
Ther are no sudis that i wouldnt take with a salf of grain to be honest. But its common,
To the point that the youngest brother in some culture is designated a feminine role in society? To be clear thats just a common thing and nothing definitive or that scientific per se. Its just really statistically way above the average. And if its more about chances really that can go still anywhere.
1:34:00
.... interesting
9:30 ITS REAL!!!???
Yes! I learned about it in the same class I learned that intersex people exist 🤓👍🏾
@@Setsunako6587holy shit. I really thought it was just a podcast 'did you know ___' 'Ohhhh.' thing
Very cool 👍
Love genetics
So clay is gay
Clay really is one of my favorite kinds of antagonists; complex enough in circumstance and themes to discuss for hours on end in the ways he reflects and portrays our reality, but also abusive and intensely vile enough to really stimulate a personal kind of hatred in a viewer.
Also I think Danniel perusing him first is a major reason as to why clay is attracted to him because Clay sort of thrives and craves that attention because from what we see of clay and bloberta in the show, she kind of just ignores him. In my opinion clays sexuality or rather what makes him feel attraction is mostly based on how much attention the other person can give him and I think that’s why he originally did get along with bloberta in the beginning because she was giving him that attention
Couldn't his attraction to Danielle also due to the fact that "Another life" could be produced vs Clay and a woman? Had Clay had an "outside" baby, that's just another responsibility one way or another.
EVERYONE SHUT UP MORALTON UNI MADE A NEW VIDEO
Is it just me…or is he kinda
🤨
Is he kinda a self-destructive alcoholic? I hope that's what you were going to say..
YEYAYEYSYEYYSYEYSYSYS ITS HERE GAHAHDHDHDYE
where is the bloberta video?
Unfortunately we had some technical difficulties and lost a lot of our recorded audio! We’ve finished re-recording but still need to edit. We should have the Bloberta video posted in a week or so 🫡
sorry to hear that! Thank you for the reply. I’m very excited to see it!!!
32:38
if/when you guys make an episodes about florence and dotty or just about the episode sundays i will cry so hard that episode makes me feel so many things... and if/when you do a deep dive on stephanie
We plan to! Florence means so much to me as well
Clay doesn’t have an excess of money because he has to spend it on his crippling Alkohol addiction. But on a serious note it definitely make you wonder how he is able to fund his gun and taxidermy collection as well as all his Alcohol, like it can’t be purely based on bribes and a mayors salary. Also unless I’m missing something it’s kind of wild that censordoll never ran for mayor before or some kind of political position before since her whole thing was controlling the town
Patriarchy y'know. Women can't be mayor, absurd.
I would guess too, hos drastic alcaholism makes him probably waste a looot money, unless he takes it as bribe i guess? But it has to be a big money drain. Know a relative that ... yeah drained a lot from not only himself.
I imagine his alcoholism leeches a loooot of money . He does look barely functional enough to keep up a fassade either?!
For real do deserve addicts that clay is a chance, but also tough love and not trusted with finances if they are not shown to be in a better place. Addictions can so fast drain money over the amount having it even.
Him Being a barey functioning alcoholic who is , a wreck, and really that cripling alcoholism and addiction just makes him more impulsive else to his already issues.
Thats why addiction does existing issues not forgotten away, it just makes it worse with a terrible spiral, to even more fall in extreme more dark holes.
That said i highly respect people that get their shit together, own up and do even talk about it openly even more.
That said it doesnt make him a terible person, he is, but it probably makes him even worse and more dysfunctional. To be clear he has no moral qualms to distract from his stuff to make it everyones issues and is very abusive doing so. Why worse probably.
I do think bojack horseman takes alcoholism seriously and showcases the effects it has on bojack and his peers/loved ones. To say that it doesn’t or that bojacks drinking to excess is not taken seriously because he’s a ‘horse that can drink a lot’ negates a huge portion of the show that explicitly explores the effects of bojacks alcohol and drug abuse and how he has “poisoned” his relationships around him almost exactly like what clay says in the bar scene in sacrifice. Bojack exhibits similar traits to clay in that he is crass/brazen with others, that he saw his parents drink from a young age similar to clays mom and he emulated that behavior, bojack has been seen blacking out, drunk driving, and making a multitude of bad decisions linked directly to his alcoholism and drug use. To say that Bojack Horseman doesn’t take alcoholism/alcohol abuse seriously is a blatant lie and there are so many episodes and moments from the show that contradict that notion.
TLDR: Bojack Horseman does take alcoholism seriously as evidenced by multiple episodes and similarities are shared between Bojack and Clay developing alcoholism and how they are both affected by it. It seems unfair to put bojack in with Rick and Morty and The Simpsons when it comes to how alcoholism is portrayed in media.
Can't argue with that!
I think you may have misinterpreted what they were saying-
The show does explor3 bojacks alcholism but its really set dressing to his mental health and choices, whereas clay's relationship with alcohol specifcally is adressed to the point its almost a character of its own. It's done in two different ways and neither are bad or wrong. Can you pinpoint where it was said that BJ doesn't take alcoholism seriously? Rick and Morty/The Simpsons these things as well, just in different ways and in different amounts.
@@blossomentrails3398the specific part begins at 40:12 but I do see what you’re saying as well and I may have read too into what was said. The show(Bojack) mostly discusses his mental health and how his destructive behavior affects those around him though there are moments(most of season 4/5) that address his alcoholism specifically. I think what more or less irked me was hearing “when bojack drinks he’s a horse so he can drink as much as he wants and not really get drunk” which also struck me as very odd since we see bojack get drunk/black out a lot though he does usually do other drugs when he drinks. Either way I don’t think any harm/foul was meant by the people making this video and I’m glad we could respectfully discuss this :)/gen
@@blossomentrails3398oh and also at 40:34 ish? When they say “what does that do to a family, what does that do to your mental health” which I interpreted/perceived as them saying “these shows aforementioned do not do this/meet this criteria whereas moral orel does” which also struck me as odd since bojack(the show not the actual character) puts a lot of focus onto how alcohol affected bojack growing up as well as explored the alcohol dependency both his mom and his dad had and how he learned to drink at a very young age and how alcohol had affected him all the way until the end of the show. But as aforementioned in my other comment I truly don’t think what was said in the video was with ill intent towards the shows mentioned.
33:48 dissagree here. Clay is exeedingly rich, but he uses that money to avoid his family. Example: alcholism, obviously. But also the many exodic heads on his wall and the hallway of guns. But all the money goes strait into his study and himself and his ego. He only gets upset becuse it means less money spent on booze and meterial goods to numb himself, ironicly one of the only prominate idems clay buys is a lust guard to keep him and blowberta seperated. More in line with the idea of welth corrupting people thats super prevelent in the new testement.
Hey pal! Maybe listen ten seconds further to where they conclude that he's swimming in bribe money?
The "he's too self aware" stuff does perpetuate stigma and misinformation. I like the video otherwise, and I get that a lot of narcissists aren't self aware. But plenty of people with egosyntonic PDs do have awareness that the way they're acting isn't ok, and don't know any other way of behaving. Its a stereotype that falls into the "if you were a narcissist you wouldn't be worried about being a narcissist" type thinking, which just isn't true
@@lambroastkenny-smith2301 Please listen to the section again, we did touch on exactly what you’re saying here and discussed that it’s not always true!
“It’s not necessarily to say that people with NPD can never have a level of self awareness but in some cases it’s an aspect of healing it’s not something that characterizes the disorder itself.”
Just a thought/connection... Sorry if you mentioned this in the video and I just missed it. The bar scene when Clay is ranting and Reverend Putty, Officer Papermouth, and Dr. Potterswheel (? I think that's his name,) they all seem like they're going to fight Clay, but then they decide not to and that its not worth it. There is a parallel between this and the fact that his father told him he wasn't worth it when he went to hit him. So again, Clay is receiving this message of not being worth it. I don't think I explained very well (I was struggling to put my thoughts into words) but I hope this makes sense!
god get me in there i got shit to say. great video so far love these loose but structured conversations you guys decided to have 👍👍👍👍👍👍❤❤
Good material but i have some vonstructive critism in the audio:
The mic quality should be imoroved, and the sound should be ballanced. Some segments are quieter than others.
The music segments are way too loud and jumpscare me. The speaker is so quiet so i put the volume up then BLAM swerslut!
So i can tell you are on call, recording other people thru your speakers. Instead, you should record as you do, but ask each speaker to recird themselves on their end, then send you the recording for edotong it all together
.
he’s so evil. and yet….
Real.
56:11 the word was heteronormativity
I swear I read somewhere that the show's creator said if homosexuality wasn't so taboo in Moralton, Clay wouldn't be so into Danielle because the fact they have to keep their love hidden is a turn on for Clay. If that's true and I'm not just misremembering then I wonder how much Clay actually loves Danielle and how much of their relationship is just lust.
56:27 I'd disagree with this, bisexuals denying their queerness still falls under compulsory heterosexuality
Hi, Wes here! There has been a big confusion about the term "Compulsory Heterosexuality" for years now due to the discrepancy between its original use in the 1976 Brussels International Tribunal on Crimes Against Women as opposed to Adrienne Rich's expansion of the term in her essay. The usage of "Compulsory Heterosexuality" in the Tribunal referred to an incident in which a lesbian woman in a heterosexual marriage underwent a conversion therapy session of several months consisting of being raped by her husband at the orders of a medical professional. What characterizes this use of the word is the fact that this treatment it was 1) institutionally backed and supported, 2) socially encouraged and 3) extremely violent and literal.
Adrienne Rich expands on the term in her essay, arguing that all women in society actually experience Compulsory Heterosexuality because female socialization doesn't give you another option, and that heterosexual feminists don't interrogate their own sexuality in consideration of the power imbalances that plague their relationships with men.
It is worth noting that under Rich's definition of the term, men in general cannot experience comphet because they have the social upperhand regardless of their sexual orientation. We are NOT using Rich's definition of the term.
We are using the ORIGINAL term, designating a very literal, pervasive long term pattern of rape and sexual coercion in a marriage on the basis of trying to "prove" that someone's partner is heterosexual and not homosexual, ie incapable of attraction to an opposite sex partner on the virtue of them being opposite sex. That is exactly what was going on with Clay.
When straight people are pressured to get into a straight marriage, that's heteropatriarchy. When queer people in general are pressured to get into straight marriage, that's heterosexism. When a homosexual person, who cannot enthusiastically consent due to the definition of their orientation, enters a straight marriage or otherwise tries to "convert" their attraction, that's compulsory heterosexuality.
If you want to read about the version of the term where it only applies to straight, bi and gay women and zero men, Adrienne Rich's article is out there floating around, and it includes the horrific circumstances of the original coining of the term in Norway.
Hope that helps!
I thought Clay is a closted bisexual.
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxdvdWGduH1U7mjHK9B1M9rd3L9_tmd_Iw?si=c0v3POYzsKxA-3Ci
wouldn't he be bisexual ?
Check out the "favorite food: high balls" section
The show's creators specifically say he's gay in the commentaries
He reminds me a lot of BoJack Horseman in a way
Personally I think clay is attracted to women sexually that’s or he’s just willing to fuck anything
We see clay reacting positively to censordolls flirting (if you can call it that) and to me I always say clay having some sort of attraction to Bloberta when they met. However I don’t think he’s into romance with women considering he’s more romantic with Danielle than sexual (it’s obviously still an aspect).
I don’t have a label but I think clay is romantically and sexually attracted to men but only finds women sexually attractive if that makes sense