So... I'm seeing a lot of the lotus being the one to move the frame. I'm curious, why do you believe this? I'm generally interested. Is it Just because she shows up there or do you feel there are other instances where she controlled either a or multiple frames aside from powering them from afar?
@@WFyinxia Are we sure the Lotus is in control of that hand? I'd question who it belongs to once it was cut from her body... especially when wally uses it to entice us...
@@TheDsIEGESorry, my English is not good.（Software translation）emmm，We currently don't understand why Lotus's hand can Transference，But I can see that Lotus's hand is Amalgam on the arm of the drifter，in the new war，perhaps Wally used this to make the operator and the drifter shake hands，link them.Why did the Amalgam hand of the drifter disappear in the new war, and what did the drifter experience.Two hands are different in terms of time，Wally's is the hand of eidolon lotus，Where does the complete lotus hand in duviri come from.There are still too many mysteries about lotus，Lotus knows Wally, what has Lotus experienced，we don't know how Lotus put Lua into the void.
@@TheDsIEGE I remember in the abolished version of the war within, ordis said that Transference is the link between us and lotus, I don't know if there is any connection
Well in Sacrifice Quest we technically saw Ballas use a transference bolt to control Umbra, and basically, until we, the Tenno overwrote this control he was able to keep full control over Umbra despite its unusual free will, also showing that transference could be done without physical contact, and seeing how tenno during 2nd dream was in danger of death, I believe it could have been a display of greater transference power than usual even if just as self-preservation act
Theory on why Stalker didn't wipe us right then and there at the moon. He was still in control and had a moment of weakness that Peepaw Hunhow didn't like. So the second time we see him on the ship it's Hunhow pulling his chain tighter, deeper in to his mind in his rage. Hence why when we broke the sword, which appears to be the strongest link Hunhow had during that time, it looked like it hurt the stalker, convulsing before being zapped off the ship.
Since warframes do possess personalities and the way we link to them is empathetic, I think that there is a certain level of consciousness in each warframe. I think transferrence in the tenno sense is essentially "joining" the warframe and tenno's mind together with the tenno in a sense filling in the missing parts, where orokin based continuity completely destroys and takes over the host. Edit: grammar
Very potentially, I just personally feel that area we see umbra in is essentially where all the warframe minds go at some point, until they are freed... I'm guessing 1999 will shed some light on this...
@@TheDsIEGE, hope so. For me, the WF 1999 had a much more impact because of this. I never played DS, but i know the lore. For me, WF'99 is an answer to a pray. But we have to wait...and hope. Hopefully, will not be the last chance, in case Devs will take another path.
@TheDsIEGE On this note, since the second dreams, it's always felt odd that each frame comes with unique animation sets. If they were complete blank slates, then why would they have these, at times, very expressive animations? To add to that, these animations sometimes play into certain frames having an affinity for certain weapon types. This might harken to the kind of warrior each frame started as. I hope I am not restating anything that hasn't already been covered.
I think people forget one very important fact: The Warframes were made before the Tenno were found. THey were considered a failed experiment of uncontrollable weapons that is until the Tenno managed to transference into them as Ballas says, take the broken things and take their pain away.
True, but that was only the original copies. The warframes we use in game are built by us through schematics. So they aren’t sentient like the original warframes. Hence why they freeze up when using transference.
@@ItsxSpartan Right but Umbra was also refabricated and still was Umbra. Its not like the Grineer where its direct cloning either as the Warframes do not seem to degrade at all. Id still argue there is a sense of their personality that bleeds over and in most cases some failsafe keeps the warframes in check but in this freak incident the warframe gains a bit of sentience to aid its longtime friend or companion or partner or even child if we push it that far.
Yeah I always assumed the move at the end was the warframe itself. While not fully sapient, it contains some latent memory of its past self. Whether that is some type of thread to a soul or memory imprinted in the cloning process I dont know.
Warframes definitely retain a shred of their personalities, as shown by the animation sets that can be equipped in the cosmetics menu, so my personal theory is that the warframe just had a small moment of clarity, even though they don't retain memories of before they became warframes.
Honestly the worst part about them having any kind of sentience leftover is the realization that barring physical destruction they will never be allowed to age or die. So if there is some kind of sentience still left in the Warframe which I think that there is and Warframes like Umbra prove that. It has to be a living hell of unimaginable proportions it's exactly the same nightmare as the sunken place in Get Out.
I was thinking a lot about that during the making of this... If what umbra went through is normal, that would be absolutely terrible. Imagine the ones who volunteered for it, Maybe thinking they'd be some super soldier and ended up a beast they themselves can't control...
The warframe moved itself, any other answer is less cool and less hype so I don’t care for it. Also the Tenno take away a warframes pain, that implies they can feel pain. Even if they are just as alive as an infested Moa would be that still makes them fairly alive. Though there is the note that the connection between an operator and their frame doesn’t exactly care about the distance between them and it might have been an earlier showing if long distance transference. Headcanon is the operators distress made enough energy to wake the warframe and though they couldn’t control it at a distance the warframe still moved to save them
They stated that the original intention was for all frames to be like Umbra. But, that it was going to be a logistical nightmare to make that a reality. Not that the idea has been scrapped, but that it's been shelved. We can't fully rule out other umbra frames later on.
Hunhow's words, not the Stalker's. But that would track, the same. Additionally, the Operator being choked out there, perhaps a momentary loss of consciousness into non-lucid mental state, the frame was no longer being "tamed" for just long enough to break the sword. Warframes are if nothing else, Infested. Perhaps it was Helminth operating the frame to save us?
@@vladyvhv9579i have NEVER seen anyone attempt to tie the helminth system in the ship to any part of the lore or make it make sense, i do like this theory to a degree
From what was said in the War Within, it can be understood that it couldn't be the tenno controlling the warframe due to not being able to control it when not in the chair, thats why the tenno neads the somatic link in the back of the orbiter. Only after The War Within do they not need it, because their power us unlocked. And it can't be The Man In The Wall because he wasn't released until The Chains of Harrow. It has to he the Warframe's action. And Chroma could be implied to be controlled by Hunhow or influenced as such, since the Pelt of Chroma looks and shares characteristics of a Sentient, same as the wings which could explain the control. Atleast from what I think
A few points: The Drifter, when using a warframe for the first time, compares it to riding a horse. This suggests some free will. Next, Wukong's clone acts without direction. It still follows any instructions given, but moves and attacks freely by itself. This would suggest that at least some frames, even among the fully produced versions, were permitted to retain some free will. In the Vitruvian, Ballas say the warframes failed after they were sent to the battlefield. It is possible that warframes that were not traumatized by war, like Protea, did not rebel. (Something something Detroit: Become Human) Just before that he calls the warframes "bio-drones." A drone is actually more autonomous than most people think, with a built in autopilot to handle movement based on commands, rather than detailed movement instructions. So, in my mind, the warframes do have free will. They have to. But that will likely does not resemble anything like a human's anymore.
Also, adding to this, many Warframes were not just simply created for war, contrary to what their titular name implies. Lavos was originally designed to be a warden for a prison, Dante was designed to be a scholar, and Trinity was designed to be a healer. The Orokin would've never even bothered to design these particular Warframes for the aforementioned tasks if they weren't able to keep themselves composed to a certain extent.
@@tellmeninetails5819 the horse riding analogy is incorrect. Just before performing transference for the "first time" the drifter says, "Can't be harder than riding a horse can it?" That line does not really convey that the drifter thinks operating a warframe is like riding a horse, they are comparing the difficulties of the two actions, not the actions themselves.
After seeing more examples of sapient autonomous Warframes with Sorren and Jade, I firmly believe Our Warframe snapped and tried to save us, after all, we're connected for a veeeeery long time and that's a bond hard to break.
I believe your theory is correct. One thing that I noticed is that Tenno brings out the humanity/light in people like with the zariman crew from dying. This could possibly mean that the bond between Tenno and Warframe restores some form of humanity to the frame leading to saving the tenno life
From this we might infer that there is a sort of geometry of archetypes in the Warframe universe. One where opposites exist solely because of their counterparts; e.g. the Tenno representing child-like compassion as opposed to Orokin jaded tyrannical cruelty. But more than that, there always exists something in the middle - neither a conjunction or disjunction, inherently paradoxical. Perhaps personified as the Indifference but definitely represented metaphorically in the Sun/Moon dialog choices made in cut scenes of various main quests.
My favourite theory and the thing I thought that happened is that the warframes have some will of their own(also I thought that the stalker was a sentient frame). So I assumed that our warframe liked us enough to do it Edit: This video showed up for me again. I finished every quest available for now like a month ago and it turns out I was right about the stalker. And turns out original warframes(so the ones not made on the orbiter by us) are in fact sentient. So that's cool
Honestly, I get the feeling that it would've had some ties to the Echoes of Umbra (A supposedly scrapped item that would've been able to give all of the Warframes Umbra's Passive Ability. it was announced around the same time as Disruption as a gamemode.)
My personal belief is that the Warframes retain their humanity, or sense of self, but due to the infestation, it is inhibited, overtaken by the unfaultering rage of the helminth. And only after the Tenno calm that do they regain said humanity, in Umbra's case at least. For the other warframes I believe their tenno would have had to do something to them to allow them to regain control, something we are unaware of, perhaps it is what ballas had done to Umbra to allow him to retain his memory and sentience after we obtain him. At first I had always thought chroma was being controlled by the sentient based pelt he wears, since the tenno disappeared, it got control, but now I am starting to rethink that because of the mentioning of how it was trying to keep something a secret... Hopefully we will get 1999 soon to elaborate, if not some spacing updates prior. anyways wonderful video as always!
I think we'll find out more in 1999 for certain. I really do think they are gonna show more of the "making of the frames" if you will. I can't wait. Thank you for checking the vid out!!!
When I first played it, I saw it more as the Warframe itself protecting the Operator, having made such a strong bond over time, and without us, the Warframe itself knows it can have no peace and no "life" and only silence. Especially after having done Umbra questline, seeing how we bring peace of mind to the frame, it's one of the more unique frames there is, with its more free will and act as it wants. It shows the frames has a personality, just us making them calm down, peace of mind. So for me, them wanting to protect us makes sense in my mind. Our frame is so sluggish with movement, struggling to do the simplest of things, while Umbra later on have full range of motion because of its more unique circumstances
i don't know if it's just a coincidence or I'm just overthinking it but I found this: Xata (Truth): We learned the truth about ourselves in the second dream, and the about our past in the war within Jahu (Form): The man in the wall first appearance in the game as he took our for in the end of "Chains of Harrow". Vome (Order): We made took control of the Umbra and learned that our void power made the Warframes mind stable by "taking away their pain" Fass (Chaos): The new war. Ris (light): Same as Albrecht did describe it: "The senselessness of it, the paradoxic, the vague untime form" We learned about the void and it's ability to manifest emotions and "ideas" into a physical forms, we learned that through "Angel of the Zariman" and "Duviri Paradox" and "Citrine's last wish". KHRA (Time): The time travel of Albrecht, I don't know if the "Whispers in the Wall" count or we shall wait for the next ones. The last two (Netra and Lohk) or three (counting Oull) requiem words are to be answered in the upcoming quests.
maybe you overthought this, but... I am inclined to believe that you may indeed be on to something here. However, Khra (Time) referring to Albrechts activities, when the rest of what you have said refers to our own, this simply doesn't seem to fit in this context. If we want to fit Whispers in the Walls into this we need to look at it differently, at how our actions affected time. Khra (Time): Our first (accidental) attempt to travel into the past via transference, arriving too late and dooming one possible version of reality to a dark and indifferent fate. Through eternalism, the repercussions of this may still come to haunt us even if we get it right the next time and arrive on time in 1999.
In the update, Dante Unbound, Loid has a new quote when you talk to him about researching Dante that I feel is extremely important to this topic. He says, "Warframes cannot speak, as a rule. Their creator decided they should only scream, or roar, or howl. Dante spoke through his writing, and his voice was beautiful." I see this is as giving credence to the "The Warframe awoke and pulled the sword from its body" argument (which I personally believe, and have always believed, ever since I first experienced The Second Dream quest for myself.) Loid knows about the Tenno, or "Void Orphans" as he calls them, so why didn't he instead say, "Warframes cannot speak, as a rule. Their creator decided they should only scream, or roar, or howl. Dante's *Void Orphan* spoke through his writing, and his voice was beautiful."? That just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If that were the case, he would've viewed Dante the same way he views his Necraloid self, a "construct", nothing more. So no, I will never accept the idea that Warframes are nothing more than empty husks only for the Tenno Operators to parade around like some sort of puppet. Warframes have too much unique personality for me to believe that, plus, they were around before the Zariman incident occurred. Dante's lore also insinuates that he wasn't even created for combat in the first place, designed more to be a scholar, and that he did not share the same berserk and overly aggressive temperament that many of the other Warframes exhibited.
Also don't forget that the transference pods made the tenno operators drift into sleep, controlling the warframes through subconscious and this made them think they WERE the frames they were assigned to. Do this for years, possibly decades, and the warframe became them, so that is why they have personalities. They were different probably because each frame channels their power differently.
33:58 this here makes me really want umbra to be able to walk around and mess with stuff in the orbiter while you’re not piloting him, like imagine walking around as your Operator and he’s there, petting your cat or fumbling around with void relics or your mods
I think that the reason the Leverian has stories of Warframes acting with personalities was because it was Tenno acting with personalities. So when a Tenno did something, it was attributed to the Warframe they were using. I also think that each Tenno probably got their own specific frame, which is why there’s consistent characterization.
Rell had Harrow. Harrow's motif is a dark silent priest. Rell was not really a talkative person and his acts when he sacrifice himself on his belief that the man in the wall was real and a threat to everything can be interpreted as a priest taking on the duty to fight for their beliefs n" dealing with evil spirits that posed as a threat.
I'm also a firm believer of this as far as the Leverian and the stories of the past I do wonder if it's lore-accurate or simply for game design that we can replicate blueprints to forge copies of Warframes. If lore-accurate, then that means none of our frames have any consciousness (aside from Umbra), and the frame moving in The Second Dream was just a precursor to the ability we would discover and be able to fully control in The War Within
I always just assumed that the tenno was still 'waking up' and used transference remotely just enough to control it slightly. I think this was always the case, but now we have extra content that adds more NEW options. (aka this was never canon before these new things were added)
31:14 The stalker most definitely has his own orbiter or at least a landing craft, as it directly shows what his looks like in the “Hunhows Gift” pack. It’s a sentient modified Scimitar Drop Ship.
I Think Stalker/Hunhow Accidentally Created A WireLess Conection Bewteen The Tenno And Warframe Shadow Stalker Is Linked To War Thanks To Hunhow (And His Armor Pieces), After Stalker Stabs Our Warframe And Leaves The Sword War, He Picks Us Up And Grabs Us, We Were In Contact With Stalker And Our Frame With The Sword, Making Some Weird Conection, Making The Tenno Able To Still Control Them, That's Why The Frame Instantly Goes To Idle The Moment The Sword Breaks, Because It Lost The Only Connection It Had To The Tenno (Via Hunhow And Stalker)
Im still in the boat that it was either Imprinting, where it isnt too far fetched that both operator and warframe have imprinted onto each other. Similar to how the Operator identifying as Umbra when questioned on who killed Isaah. Or worse, it was Wallie as a contingency for when the Chosen Operator life is on the line. In our orbiter we are quite literally as far as possible from his influence; but, during the New War our frame not only had no reaction to our death, but the reveal that Wallie was on the other side of the gate plays into it further. (Not including the missing time between our death and revival via the drifter, as we saw bits and pieces of our prison manifesting as the Zariman, but time has passed in reality, the Zariman, and Duviri left unaccounted for.)
i said it once, but your channel is probably my best source of ideas and lore explanations for my warframe fanfic. Thank you not only for the lore but just for makin these so well!
Could be a mix of both. Two minds acting as one, and that's a Warframe on the battlefield, similar to Jaegers from Pacific Rim. When the Tenno is held by the neck, they could be unconsciously calling for help, through the void, which the Warframe could possibly "hear" and "awake" to. A small shed of consciousness. One that was in a long period of peace, disturbed by the cries of the one who brought it to them. Most of these Leverian stories are told as if there's no Tenno because no one knew of their existence. As mentioned in the video, however, there could be others who used the helminth strain on themselves. A possibility being that Stalker and his acolytes could of been Dax who used the strain on themselves. This would eventually drive them insane, yes, but being hell bent on killing someone sounds like insanity to me.
I feel like one very important factor to look at when observing how our warframes work should also be crafting. Although simply a gameplay mechanic for with a time requirement to build the warframes you need, umbra is special because of the fact that he was rebuilt with the parts of the original, being brought back like a Frankenstein monster rather than being built using a blueprint. Having a blueprint and pouring resources into a mold just shows that we are replicating what was there, but not what IS there now. The leverian stories might have had stories of warframes acting by themselves before the helminth strain did its thing, or stories like Voruna where a Tenno was at play. But the suits we use now are just reconstructed bio machines of what once was, as even by opening relics of the past you will only find more advanced blueprints for prime warframes, but never the original parts. For me, this means that the biological function is there, but the first host infected with the strain is not required, and can also be replicated.
I interpreted Ballas’ speech in the vitruvian being true to their perception: that the original warframes were completely sane, but overestimated their power and rebelled against the Orokin. Thus the Orokin destroyed the originals, but continued to experiment on their clones, continuously attempting, through varying levels of lobotomy, to excise their rebellion, until they were left with feral warframes which, unfortunately for the Orokin, still didn’t take orders well. With the advent of the Tenno as controllers, even the ferality was excised, leaving a mostly blank slate for the Tenno to inhabit. Umbra is unusual, then, because he has that one tortuous memory to anchor his ego; I don’t think that’s standard for warframes.
I agree, but with one caveat. What we know from Ballas was from a communique to Hunhow. Being the a superlative shadowmaster he was (is?), I suspect he shared only enough to be persuasive, not informative. Once again, DE Steve plays some hard-core poker.
@@johnpayne7873 with Ballas it is hard to say. Everything says that first and foremost he was a clinical idiot, each of his decisions has shot back massively. So another failed project looks completely inline here, applying malice seems excessive to me. He tried to be a "shadowmaster", but was outplayed extremely easily and willingly, you may even say he was naive. And I hope he indeed "was", and DE won't resurrect this failure of an Orokin.
@@Blackwing2345635 Interesting post … got me thinking of how a measure of incompetence may have been the norm amongst the Orokin elite. Rather like most stultified civilizations of the past and nations of the present
@@johnpayne7873 rather ignoring the world around. They are arrogant, overconfident, self-absorbed, etc., but not THAT incompetent. But Ballas literally an idiot plus to all of that. And, honestly, Orokin society was trying to stop him from some of his fatal mistakes (just like one of the core rules being creating sentient, meaning exactly self-conscious, machines).
Silvana fled her assignment and was hunted by the Orokin's soldiers (Dax). Titania sacrificed herself to rescue her. This altruistic act could not have been done by a Tenno for several reasons. For one, Silvana despite not being a Tenno learned how to perform Transference with Titania. This was a secret series of tests; Silvana couldn't have been entering Titania if a Tenno was occupying her. Secondly, she then abandoned Titania when she fled, but Titania was able to find her again. If Titania was Tenno-controlled then that would have to mean she told the Tenno where she was going. Thirdly, her act of rebellion happened much earlier than Ballas' coup, If a Tenno supported her then that would have caused animosity and distrust between the Orokin and the Tenno. But the Orokin went on relying on the Tenno throughout the Old War and did not see Ballas' coup coming, so they couldn't have perceived the Tenno as potentially rebellion until much later. Fourth, Silvana was one of the inventors of Transference, yet she had no gratitude for the Tenno when Titania saved her. She would have known if it was Titania or a Tenno, but she said that Titania gave her life to rescue her. The foremost expert on Transference was basically testifying that a Warframe acted independently. So the Silver Grove events clearly show a capacity for Warframe independence, especially when it comes to protecting someone that has performed Transference into them. I think what makes Transference possible is a mutual understanding and an alignment of values. You don't "wear" a Warframe, you "become" that Warframe. You don't invade their mind, you harmonize with it. But I also believe the Orokin didn't understand that because they lacked empathy, so their documentation doesn't show that. But Tenno who become one with their Warframes do, and after long enough they start to forget that they're separate entities from their Warframes (and I believe it works the other way around as well).
Other thing I'd like to add is that we see evidence of that harmonization all through the game. Both the Operator and the Warframe contribute to the final personality. While idle, why does Octavia dance, Wisp giggle, Gara taunt, and Khora tease? Are we to believe the Tenno is choosing to do this all on his or her own? Also, why would the history of a Warframe even matter if they're just suits to wear? Even the small descriptions on frames have phrases like "Team Player" or "Trickster." How can the Tenno have a different personality just from swapping one frame out with the next? I think often times without any of us knowing, Warframe is making us do this. Depending on what frame your main is, your playstyle will change. Is it your playstyle that chose the frame? Or is it the frame that influenced your playstyle? It's a little of both, right? Like you're harmonizing with that frame. If instead it was 100% Tenno-controlled, then these differences would be very silly. The Tenno is off committing one massacre after the next, fighting to save the entire system, but still does it while "cosplaying" whatever character they think is cool? Seems a bit callous. It would be more appropriate to think that there is an alternative "silly" personality soaking into the "serious" one, making the Tenno dance and flirt while the Tenno is trying to harness that madness to achieve their goals.
The key to the answer is Gara. Each Warframe was originally a human being with desires, feelings and self-determination. Fusion at the cellular level with the virus created by Orokin erased many of these characteristics, but not completely. And to return to the Gara, many forget the one that she preserves most of what the Gara used to be: Unum. What I want to say is that the fusion with the Infestation leads to new forms of existence and identity. In conclusion, every warframe retains parts of self-determination and that is the key. In fact, Umbra proves this unequivocally. Each frame has latent sentient capacity. Maybe we should be more careful how we use these warframes, because our actions have an impact on what were once human beings.
@@Nomolun_Vr, so it seems. Judging by the flowers that are sprouting throughout this process and all in happy colors...I don't know, but I prefer to think so.
One thing to note is that are operator looks just as confused if you look at him in the background especially the way his head lifts to look at the Warframe so i would like to think that it was instinctive reaction from the Warframe not full sentence
I'm a big fan of our warframe move on it own i know it would not make sense with the sacrifice. But as someone who use the same warfame for the story it more fun to think that over the journey our warframe piece it mind for one last act to save us.
you know i actually wana see umbra only missions kinda like with khal in drifters camp. show that he isnt just sitting in our arsenal but actually doing stuff and when we use him its more like calling in a favor could even introduce it as a mission where we get a mail from umbra but opening it causes him to transference to us and he talks. have a mission where we go to the control room and can swap between controlling umbra or tenno. could be an interesting mission
A youtuber "Corgthemighty" made a video about warframes that illustrates this subject well. There are 3 generations of warframes (4 now with 1999) Gen1: are like stalker and chroma, as well as mesa, who can act entirely of their own accord, are often frantic, and seemingly cannot be controlled. Gen2: are like umbra and jade, who possess most of their minds, but can be overridden and controlled through transference. Gen3: are our warframes, mere blueprints, copies, as hunhow puts it "no sense, no self, no death. Just a metal puppet, dangling on tenno strings. bonus gen 4: are the proto frames like arthur, aoi, amir, quincy, levi, and eleanor, in full possession of their free will, and cannot be controlled even through transference. (the whispers in the walls quest part where we control arthur is implied to be his own actions, as he does not panic, but recognizes that we are present in his head.)
I ve always had a theory that the stalker resides in a ship near the sun. When youre in the Navigation if you zoom on the sun and look Northwest of it, you see the silhouette/shadow of what appears to be a Liset Ships profile and another shadow. Of course this can be just a game texture thing that coincidentaly resembles our Ship, but i have always found it curious
31:24 "But, he's built different." you just accurately described the concept of The Man in the Wall in 4 simple words. astounding. awesome video, been watching a lot of your lore breakdowns recently :) long overdue sub
Another great video as always, much appreciated TheDsIEGE! I am currently of the opinion that most frames are puppets with memories or maybe more like a person in a coma. The infestation allows them to perceive their surroundings, while the Tenno is able to calm or soothe their lingering emotions, allowing them to control (but more in a partnership way.) Reason the Drifter has a little trouble adjusting when they first try one out in NW where they mention a riding a horse. I believe in the second dream cutscene, it's the Warframe in proximity to the Tenno's growing self and growing understanding of their powers that activates the half of the Warframe's inner self, and as a way to pay forward the easing of the Warframe's pain of no control they then reach out to protect. But none of this is set in stone, in my mind, yet I believe the 1999 expansion will give us a few more inferences to what exactly are Warframes, so the idea will likely shift or grow during that I believe. Also I believe the duality of mind in Warframe and Tenno convergence to be backed by the infestation and how it affects the mind, if you look at the Entrati this can slightly be inferred during their meetings and the leveling of their reputation levels. Just like the Sister and Brother fighting over dominance in Deimos, both are of the same creature but fighting one another. We need a deeper dive into how much of a warframe is infestation and how much is the hero or warrior chosen to become one.
I believe it's the 2nd half. Also, i speculate/hope there's other tenno (that are not players) that we'll eventually meet, and a theory to splinter off of the idea, and that's related to the video my threory is that maybe it was another tenno that momentarily took control of the frame to help us. (i just thought of this instead of a tenno it could have been the man in the wall)
The other tenno thing has to be a thing yet... they don't really talk about it much in the lore. It's kinda weird because the other players we see are supposed to be from different timelines so... where are the other tenno?
The entrati lab fragment about "partial" warframes may be the explanation about Arthur wearing excalibur's "carapace". Still waiting for DE to explore rogue chroma and warframe breaking the war.
I have noticed we cant control each others Warframes yet so I believe every Warframe we craft is connected to us like a lesser intelligence that might not understand but wants to keep us safe so like a protect the pact mentality.
I feel like perhaps in the past where most stories regarding each Warframe take place, a lot of Warframes were still capable of functioning on their own in the sense that the Tenno wasn't directly controlling them. Like how Umbra is able to accompany us now and not simply revert to being enraged all the time - Having a tenno linked to the Warframe was just enough for some of them to not go ballistic all the time.
Before my last Warframe hiatus, I was a child, and once I came back I was an adult. Your lore videos have helped me comprehend this game’s lore to a crazy degree. I loved it when I was young, but now I can love warframe even more now that I know what is going on 😂
Great video! As far as I remember, the voiced diary of Ballas during the Sacrifice quest mentioned that the warframe program was working as intended at first, and only after some time did they lose control. Maybe the mind was corroded by the infestation gradually, and without specific control options like with the umbra, they just continued living as soldiers, amassing achievements. You brought me some more insight about the nature of Tenno's being. I had all pieces of info, they just didn't connect into a sigle thought. So we are just of the "Void Demon" family, pure consciousness, and the Lua was CONTAINMENT to prevent escape. I guess the game's tutorial presents us with a warframe "sealed" while the transference was still active, preventing Tenno's escape. Thanks for activating my thought process in this regard :)
Spy missions (in warframe) are not so forgiving, but the fires spy mission in the second dream hits me hard. Like the difficulty when from zero to 1000 in just the moment I try not to set of alarms.
How about I raised drifter in this case? With all time travel going on in 1999 and lotus choose the drifter to go back in time instead of tenno in the recent quest. Lotus must be asking drifter to do stuff for her like saving tenno in this quest or wake the warframe in the awakening quest. In the trailer, she looks like drifter ngl.
When it comes to the Leverian, I believe each Warframe is Tenno controlled, and each story is told from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the Tenno exists. The Orokin did do such a good job at hiding the Tenno that they themselves forgot they were human and believed they were the Warframes when coming out of the Second Dream. As for Chroma I believe it was being controlled by either Hunhow, or the sentient that it had killed, skinned, and was using as its cloak as it was seemingly searching for Hunhow by chasing the signal provided by the arcane codices. As for other quests it's been so long since I completed them that I can't remember what happened off the top of my head. As for the Second Dream instance, I believe the Warframe moved on its own. Partly because I love the thought of it wanting to save us. My theory is that all frames, excluding umbra, have been numbed by their extended therapeutic connection to the Tenno that they're basically in a sleep/meditative state mentally. If Umbra is anything to go by, the pain from the process of being turned into a warframe seems to be the only thing their minds are able to focus on and becomes their driving force from there on. So with that taken away, they become less active and again fall into a sleep or meditative like state allowing the Tenno to take full control. Grammar Edit
Interesting... I like that end part and never really thought about that. This episode really opened my mind to others being able to "transfer" essentially by using continuity, so... Yeah, Everything is on the table now, huh? And I agree, I think the tenno control them too
Great Video. Thank you for your wonderful work here. it really reminds me why I love Warframe so much.. The story is soo deep and "well presented" its highly fragmanted and it took them over 10 years to come this State :) ButI love to solve it and learning more each year. its a long run but definitely a good one. Thanks again for making rhis video .
I believe the warframes still have their humanity but stays still when not controlled because they're in peace but they move when needed to save their operator. My theory is supported by the story of Citrine and how it "saved" Belric and Rania trapping them in her crystal to protect them.
If I remember correctly, there was at least one point where DE was going o give us the ability to give any Warframe sentience, at least to some degree. That would indicate that all of them had the potential to be like Umbra and function at least to some degree independently. But at some point that seems to have just been forgotten. Depending on how you look at that, it could be a clue as to how DE interperpates the sentience in Warframes as well.
This awesome video reminded me of several key moments in my warframe career. Selecting Loki as my starter frame (remember that?), the tenno reveal in the Second Dream, the Sacrifice quest, and playing as Arthur. I really look forward to more quests from this game. The combat and looting is fun, but the lore is what keeps me playing.
I love the video. I must say after the video I started wondering about my own opinion. I think Warframe moved on ots own... But really after the video, I am not sure any more. Tho, to be fair, I am still leaning toward that warframe moved. Umbra was probably uniquely made, but also, when we build Umbra, we use Kuva to make it. No other frame uses kuva (explains the indipendent will). Also, the RHino codex... I think what scientist see at first, was Rhino acting on its own. Only when Rhino gets near the pods where kids are placed (when Davis say that this is the place where they cept survivors from the Zariman), is when Rhino stops and becomes calm, looking at his hands (much like we see at the resevoar in Second dream). That is clear point that Tenno enters semi conscious warframe. When Drifter enters warframe, there is a moment where he staggers and actually say outloud "whoooah, easy... easy" (Much like one would say to a horse to calm it down) which is kind of showing that warframe was unsettled or even vexed when it felt the different presence. (It calmed down soon after, when warframe recognized the drifter as operator) Also... Mirage prime trailer say that human who became mirage distorted the original creation, So it kind of means that their mind remains somewhere, traped. An Octavia prime trailer say "our haunted creations will need drum beats to drown out the throb of helminth blood" again implying there is a sentience inside the warframe. Besides, I can't think of a bigger horror then to make someones mind forever traped in agony, without posibility of escape. And THAT would be the reason why Tenno rebeled against Orokin. Why would they destroy entire civilization...
Thematically, Warframe draws from two deep metaphysical wells, Buddhism and Jung. Both are motivated by the existential conundrum of suffering (or conflict) but offer different solutions. In the former, the answer to pain is detachment while the latter requires integration. Either way, both demand acceptance of some ultimate truth or reality. My impression is that the game lore is attempting to offer a middle path. One where shedding identity as a final stage of consciousness can be along side retaining some semblance of self. Not only that, but these opposites exist as a continuum. So for some (most?) who were made into warframes, "going into that good night" was a welcomed release, no shred of any identity remains. Their former twisted physical forms nothing more than a living fossil. One that can be animated by Tenno. For those whose with savagely strong survival instincts, the only notion of a self that remains is fear of annihilation. Fight or flight. An automated response to threat that might be the basis for some the unique abilities of the various warframes. Those who were driven by feelings that intensely connected them to something - a person or group, a place, an ideal - what remains of their identity prompts them to stay as willing golems. To serve as vengeful ghosts or protective angels who "sleep nothing" while the Tenno is away, but join in when called upon. Whether Excalibur Umbra is a major outlier is unclear, given whether the details of memory the Tenno had access to was done through direct to the physical brain or whether it was through Void time-line buggery. Ultimately, each person who became a warframe has an individual choice of whether and of how to be present in the Tenno reality line. There is no "one size fits all". Moreover, the Principle of Eternalism would assert that the choice need not be permanent - or rather a singular one.
I believe the Lotus was the one who manipulated the Warframe to aid us, the Tenno, since we didn't retain much memory of ourselves after awakening from the Second Dream. Moreover, we didn't achieve full control over void energy and transference until we underwent the War Within quest. I speculate that the Lotus possesses the ability to manipulate or influence Warframes to some extent, though she may not wield complete mastery over them. Our understanding of the Lotus and her true capabilities remains limited. She maneuvered the moon into the void, directing and commanding some Tenno in the Prelude to War quest, and is aware of the Man in the Wall, yet she continues to withhold numerous secrets from us. This video is truly remarkable, as always.
Entrati family: we created the Nekramechs, they can't be hacked by the Tau! Other Orokin: We created bioweapons, the Tau can't hack living creatures! Ballas: I created biorobots - warframes and gave them AK-47s, they can't be hacked! Lotus, literally Princess Tau: ha ha, I made the warframe move.
One thing that I notice is every frame “acts” different, the agile or noble animation, idle poses, ways they move, I think every frame we build as a “clone” of the original has just a bit of the person who was transformed, not a full mind maybe but something. Why would the Tenno made Yareli act like a giggly teenage girl or Altus a boxer? Why does Kora languish her whip around herself and Grendel do sumo stomps if it’s just one person piloting? Perhaps it’s kind of like Pacific Rim where each warframe is Tenno and Frame in concert
I think it’s partly to help our Tenno choose our personality. Everyone has that 1 warframe they truly love cause it acts like them. Khora for me cause she has her own kavat. Kavat (like a typical cat) can be comfort for a person. Plus her move set is to keep people away from her. I think the devs gave them personality most to give each player, their personal warframe. Less of a storyline thing.
I believe that our warframe did infact animate itself to aid us, the umbra quest really shows us how exactly we connect to the frames, we touch their mind and calm their horrific trauma. We are basically the only thing giving them peace from their endless, awful existence.... (omfg total sidetrack upon hearing something, we are called tenno right? The children of the zariman tenn0... tenn-0... tenno 😐 very creative, anyway) i think that the umbra quest was made directly as an answer to this question, designed to show us the horrific process used to create a warframe and how we are just sharing their body as a tool to direct our void energy, a focus crystal of sorts
I believe the leverian stories are teno, many or a single one. I understand teno can control their Warframes some anywhere once they mastered transference; but in the second dream, that one warframe, our main the one we have spent milenia being one and the same with, just for a brief moment recovered enough consciousness overcoming its pain in order to save its other half.
Warframes are archetypes worn as personas. This event shows that archetypes have an aparrent life of their own. In real life this follows both poll answers. It acts as a singular entity... but is also just an amalgamation of the dreams of others. The same paradox applies to the concept of self - self is both singular and plural. In that paradigm, puppet and puppeteer may be interchangeable concepts, a reciprocal bond like a symbiosis. Merging with a warframe then would be like being an avatar of its traits incarnate, able to shape those traits while the traits simultaneously shape them. What if... the stalker is just another frame connected to the tenno with aparrent autonomy. After all he mimics the tenno's movements when questioning his identity. Btw the archetypal nature of excalibur as a leader's weapon of destiny is explored with the service weapon in control - a game that revolves around jung's theories.
After playing through the sacrifice quest my interpretation is the warframe moved of its own will (limitedly) to save the tenno operator. Plus my volt i had from day 1 doing it made it feel extra special :)
My feeling still is that the warframes minus Umbra are basically a husk now and the second dream intervention was the Tenno unknowingly using thier transference powers but not doing it well. I do feel like considering DE had long ago thought of giving us a way to make other warframes be like Umbra and assist us in the battlefield freely that it will make the lore wildly subject to change if they ever reintroduce the concept. Personally I think it would be cool. That would support instances like Chroma seemingly acting on its own possibly.
There is the potential here.. for a somewhat third option of the contact with the recently awoken tenno may have "healed" more of the warframe's personality.. allowing it to act in that brief moment.. both sides of the argument kind of need some assumptions to be true unfortunately. Or it could have been some survival programing deep it's mechanical components.
I love the idea of Warframes being slightly sentient, not autonomous like how Umbra is, but knowing when to protect themselves and the operator. Another way to look at it is how all Warframes have residual personalities from their original hosts who were turned into them by the Orokin. That, plus the strain used to create the Warframes, probably also has a degree of self-preservation, causing it to remove what it perceived as a danger to itself and the operator. Breaking the sword in half wasn't necessarily its plan, but it's just what happened because it most likely didn't have enough power to do more than that. I've always been a fan of the "warframe are sort of alive" theories so I always just believed it was the warframe acting on its own to help us. Like some form of really REALLY basic sentience. Nothing outstanding without the operator in control, but more like "oof ouch there's something sharp tearing my insides up, I need to get this out with the little energy I have left"
Ive never considered this, i always assumed it was lotus... But knowing about the frames, i kinda like the idea that the tennos distress woke the frame long enough to save them
although it was released way after, I like to think it was actually the drifter pushing past the barrier between timelines to save the tenno and in addition the origin system.
A wonderful video as always. I still stand with my answer ' the Warframes moved by themselves', and here is why. If you go by what Ballas says 12:14, when he created the Warframes, they became mad like the infested. that means they lost their minds and ability to control themselves, but what if they were able to retain that control through strong mind or " emotion", like Excalibur Ambra. His anger was strong enough to control his body. then when he is control by the tenno, he can assist them when he is not being control. why? I think its because either he is used to move his body because of his strong anger emotions OR his infesting process was different somehow from the others. but the former can be said for the other warframes, tho its not as strong as Ambra. You even said it, many of the warframes stories have them acting in their own accords. Maybe that is because of whatever strong emotion or well was prevailing at the time. Keep in mind what ballas said 14:51, they did all of those things to the warframes to trying to make them numb so they can be easily controlled. Watch any content where someone who goes through these things and become numb, the moment they feel a somewhat strong emotion they will immediately act upon it without thinking the consequences or care in mind. Sorry of the long comment
I noticed something in the Stalker entry in Albrecht's lab that I think everyone has skipped over, would be interested in hearing your thoughts. The entry says, 'Appearance and combat capability suggest The Stalker is a surviving Low Guardian'. 'Appearance' and 'Combat capability'. It suggests that the Low Guardians all looked like Stalker does and had Warframe combat capabilities like Stalker. Makes me think Stalker and Acolytes were all Low Guardians and were always some form of hybrid Warframe, like Arthur. Thoughts?
Absolutely possible. And... we still don't really have context on what a low guardian is yet but... my original thought was that "the orokin's greatest" might not necessarily mean only a particular class. I wonder if the best of each section maybe, low guardians included were chosen based on their own personal proficiency as warriors, maybe the difference between like a general soldier and special ops... Guaranteed there are still some A plus warriors in basic infantry, you know? I'm hoping we get more with 1999 on that specific information...
It is quite possible that both theories are true that the warframe indeed did move it self and we did too. When we crawled towards our warframe in the second dream we feelt it. The connection of asking for help from an old friend. It scooped us up from the ground not fully able to move like it used to but also with care, not pupeteered by us in the same way like before. Its quite possible that when we did that we atleast for an instant managed to bypass the transference bolt (the bolt that seperates umbra from our warframe) allowing the warframe to come back to sentience to help. In our hour of need it responded. (If only for a moment)
I believe the warframes are capable of their moments of independent actions like in the second dream and sacrifice, with some of the side missions being instances of that and others just being a "canon" tenno who only had the given frame at their disposal and was just doing their own adventure before we came along and we were just crossing paths with a pre-second dream mindset tenno.
Non-tenno can use transference, silvana did in the silver grove quest, and ballas used it on umbra through his unique transference bolt, when making him kill his own son, and onwards, which probably also plays a part in him keeping his memories, some control and such. The other frames we have probably have a different bolt that makes them more of a husk, or potentially some other factors behind it, considering he was designed specifically to suffer and all. I think lotus is very likely to take control on some ways, the fact it's likely she also took a deal with the man in the wall, her chamber looking like a transference pod almost. Not to mention there is also a kinda cool parallel with the "they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing-- And take away its pain" between margulis(and I guess by extension lotus) and the tenno as well, not just tenno to Warframe... Idk tho!!
Very close but not quite in the same way as the tenno and also can't shift in and out of different ones, especially in the case of Silvana. It was a one way ticket for her in the end, which is probably the same as the unum... That being said, the parallels are there for certain! I'm hoping we get more on this in 1999, as there are still many questions left over after the whole tenno lotus saga, in my opinion at least!
@@TheDsIEGE Oh yeah it's 100% not the exact same as the tenno, I do have quite a few reasons for thinking why it could be different for Lotus. Most of it is un-confirmed stuff, speculation, stuff like that... so I could be super wrong. It'll be cool to see what happens in 1999 though yeah, I think it could drag Lotus back into it the plot a bit for sure, atleast in some small way.
My head cannon, at least up until watching this video, has always been that the warframes we are using now, are copies of the originals. We are printing them out and creating them from the materials the blueprints call for. The original warframes, the ones we are making copies of, were the ones created directly with the infestation, helminth and willing or untilling volunteers. That's how the original Inaros was known to Baro, but now we can create our copy for our own use, etc. If this isn't the case, then feeding the helminth one of these copies for it's ability takes on a whole new meaning. Something to chew over, no pun intended.
In the Sacrifice we see that the rage of Umbra is what keeps him subconscious, although not all warframes like Umbra have people in them they are still living things with emotions and subconscious attached that likely they take on the operators will/subconscious duties after be bonding with them for a period of time or are influenced by the void's conceptual embodiment. You also see the operators' will is influenced given that warframes have stances causing them to behave certain ways in idle likely after the concept they embody from the void that gives them their powers just like incarnon weapons.
Using logic when it comes to the void is hilariously misunderstanding that it is everywhere and everything all at once but only once it touches it. Thus Wally only coming to be after Albert entered the void as prior to that [from the original system perspective at least] He didn't/ did exist. As before that from the Origin system perspective no self-aware consciousness has touched the void.
great take on this, I was always wondering what could have caused the Warframe to move by itself in that quest. I found it funny as it was never mentioned in game, like that was completely normal. Theories are fun
I personally used Rhino Prime (basically my canon frame when it comes to quests, with one exception of Inaros when the Grineer Queens tried to do the mind corruption thing) it works with the frame's lore too since it went on a rampage so there was established it can move on its own.
ooo i like the theory that the leverian frames are pre-operator bond... my own hc ive puttered around with for a while is that the leverian frames are post-operator, with the idea that after each frame experiences tenno therapy, that theyre allowed free reign to conduct operations of their own volition, only being called upon by their tenno when the tenno, specifically, needs them. pre-operator bond feels a lot smoother of an explanation tho... much 2 consider
So... I'm seeing a lot of the lotus being the one to move the frame. I'm curious, why do you believe this? I'm generally interested. Is it Just because she shows up there or do you feel there are other instances where she controlled either a or multiple frames aside from powering them from afar?
Lotus's hand can Transference，we knew this from Duviri Paradox
@@WFyinxia Are we sure the Lotus is in control of that hand? I'd question who it belongs to once it was cut from her body... especially when wally uses it to entice us...
@@TheDsIEGESorry, my English is not good.（Software translation）emmm，We currently don't understand why Lotus's hand can Transference，But I can see that Lotus's hand is Amalgam on the arm of the drifter，in the new war，perhaps Wally used this to make the operator and the drifter shake hands，link them.Why did the Amalgam hand of the drifter disappear in the new war, and what did the drifter experience.Two hands are different in terms of time，Wally's is the hand of eidolon lotus，Where does the complete lotus hand in duviri come from.There are still too many mysteries about lotus，Lotus knows Wally, what has Lotus experienced，we don't know how Lotus put Lua into the void.
@@TheDsIEGE I remember in the abolished version of the war within, ordis said that Transference is the link between us and lotus, I don't know if there is any connection
Well in Sacrifice Quest we technically saw Ballas use a transference bolt to control Umbra, and basically, until we, the Tenno overwrote this control he was able to keep full control over Umbra despite its unusual free will, also showing that transference could be done without physical contact, and seeing how tenno during 2nd dream was in danger of death, I believe it could have been a display of greater transference power than usual even if just as self-preservation act
Theory on why Stalker didn't wipe us right then and there at the moon. He was still in control and had a moment of weakness that Peepaw Hunhow didn't like. So the second time we see him on the ship it's Hunhow pulling his chain tighter, deeper in to his mind in his rage. Hence why when we broke the sword, which appears to be the strongest link Hunhow had during that time, it looked like it hurt the stalker, convulsing before being zapped off the ship.
Very possibly. I didn't think about that!
he went full "fetal position"
@@TheDsIEGELook at Stalkers Sentient armour glow. At the reservoir, it's blue. In the Orbiter, it's red.
I actually think the stalker thought at the time it was better to retrieve his own tenno: no reason to leave it there.
@@tellmeninetails5819also a good point.
Since warframes do possess personalities and the way we link to them is empathetic, I think that there is a certain level of consciousness in each warframe. I think transferrence in the tenno sense is essentially "joining" the warframe and tenno's mind together with the tenno in a sense filling in the missing parts, where orokin based continuity completely destroys and takes over the host.
Edit: grammar
Very potentially, I just personally feel that area we see umbra in is essentially where all the warframe minds go at some point, until they are freed... I'm guessing 1999 will shed some light on this...
when we are at the point of the whisper quest playing as Arthur he does say that it feels like someone is inside his head.
@@TheDsIEGE, hope so. For me, the WF 1999 had a much more impact because of this. I never played DS, but i know the lore. For me, WF'99 is an answer to a pray. But we have to wait...and hope. Hopefully, will not be the last chance, in case Devs will take another path.
@TheDsIEGE
On this note, since the second dreams, it's always felt odd that each frame comes with unique animation sets. If they were complete blank slates, then why would they have these, at times, very expressive animations? To add to that, these animations sometimes play into certain frames having an affinity for certain weapon types. This might harken to the kind of warrior each frame started as.
I hope I am not restating anything that hasn't already been covered.
@@TheDsIEGEwe definitely hope this will shed light too
I think people forget one very important fact: The Warframes were made before the Tenno were found. THey were considered a failed experiment of uncontrollable weapons that is until the Tenno managed to transference into them as Ballas says, take the broken things and take their pain away.
Exactly!
True, but that was only the original copies. The warframes we use in game are built by us through schematics. So they aren’t sentient like the original warframes. Hence why they freeze up when using transference.
@@ItsxSpartan Right but Umbra was also refabricated and still was Umbra. Its not like the Grineer where its direct cloning either as the Warframes do not seem to degrade at all. Id still argue there is a sense of their personality that bleeds over and in most cases some failsafe keeps the warframes in check but in this freak incident the warframe gains a bit of sentience to aid its longtime friend or companion or partner or even child if we push it that far.
Yeah I always assumed the move at the end was the warframe itself. While not fully sapient, it contains some latent memory of its past self. Whether that is some type of thread to a soul or memory imprinted in the cloning process I dont know.
@@cristianbernal8009 Yeah but umbra was made by a supercharged Ordis.
Warframes definitely retain a shred of their personalities, as shown by the animation sets that can be equipped in the cosmetics menu, so my personal theory is that the warframe just had a small moment of clarity, even though they don't retain memories of before they became warframes.
Honestly the worst part about them having any kind of sentience leftover is the realization that barring physical destruction they will never be allowed to age or die.
So if there is some kind of sentience still left in the Warframe which I think that there is and Warframes like Umbra prove that. It has to be a living hell of unimaginable proportions it's exactly the same nightmare as the sunken place in Get Out.
I was thinking a lot about that during the making of this... If what umbra went through is normal, that would be absolutely terrible. Imagine the ones who volunteered for it, Maybe thinking they'd be some super soldier and ended up a beast they themselves can't control...
i just watched that movie earlier today
You mean the movie right?
@@Bluehairarrancerwas it good? In your opinion I mean
the Tenno my be easing there pain.
Like we did with umbra
The warframe moved itself, any other answer is less cool and less hype so I don’t care for it. Also the Tenno take away a warframes pain, that implies they can feel pain.
Even if they are just as alive as an infested Moa would be that still makes them fairly alive.
Though there is the note that the connection between an operator and their frame doesn’t exactly care about the distance between them and it might have been an earlier showing if long distance transference.
Headcanon is the operators distress made enough energy to wake the warframe and though they couldn’t control it at a distance the warframe still moved to save them
Before the video released*
I think you got it right there!!
It could also be nothing more than a simple plot device - namely foreshadowing - for the War Within and the Sacrifice quests.
Agree. Anything less is way less cool.
@@johnpayne7873 there is no line between plot device and lore, and if there were to be one then most theories fall apart.
I remember that DE talked about making Umbra transfer consciousness to other Warframes so that they can act on its own. I hope that DE realizes this.
They intentionally scrapped that idea, and told us as much. They didn't think it worked and decided it wouldn't fit.
They scrapped that just like they scrapped the Modular Archwing.
They stated that the original intention was for all frames to be like Umbra. But, that it was going to be a logistical nightmare to make that a reality. Not that the idea has been scrapped, but that it's been shelved. We can't fully rule out other umbra frames later on.
It was the Warframes response to stalker calling them mindless puppets
Hunhow's words, not the Stalker's. But that would track, the same. Additionally, the Operator being choked out there, perhaps a momentary loss of consciousness into non-lucid mental state, the frame was no longer being "tamed" for just long enough to break the sword. Warframes are if nothing else, Infested. Perhaps it was Helminth operating the frame to save us?
@@vladyvhv9579i have NEVER seen anyone attempt to tie the helminth system in the ship to any part of the lore or make it make sense, i do like this theory to a degree
From what was said in the War Within, it can be understood that it couldn't be the tenno controlling the warframe due to not being able to control it when not in the chair, thats why the tenno neads the somatic link in the back of the orbiter. Only after The War Within do they not need it, because their power us unlocked. And it can't be The Man In The Wall because he wasn't released until The Chains of Harrow. It has to he the Warframe's action. And Chroma could be implied to be controlled by Hunhow or influenced as such, since the Pelt of Chroma looks and shares characteristics of a Sentient, same as the wings which could explain the control. Atleast from what I think
A few points:
The Drifter, when using a warframe for the first time, compares it to riding a horse. This suggests some free will.
Next, Wukong's clone acts without direction. It still follows any instructions given, but moves and attacks freely by itself. This would suggest that at least some frames, even among the fully produced versions, were permitted to retain some free will.
In the Vitruvian, Ballas say the warframes failed after they were sent to the battlefield. It is possible that warframes that were not traumatized by war, like Protea, did not rebel. (Something something Detroit: Become Human)
Just before that he calls the warframes "bio-drones." A drone is actually more autonomous than most people think, with a built in autopilot to handle movement based on commands, rather than detailed movement instructions.
So, in my mind, the warframes do have free will. They have to. But that will likely does not resemble anything like a human's anymore.
That horse riding analogy is actually rather interesting.
I never thought about it but khora is unique in a way with her cat. The only kavat warframe to exist. Both bonded before or after meeting?
What's even more interesting is Chroma since his ability acts similar to Sentient.
Also, adding to this, many Warframes were not just simply created for war, contrary to what their titular name implies. Lavos was originally designed to be a warden for a prison, Dante was designed to be a scholar, and Trinity was designed to be a healer. The Orokin would've never even bothered to design these particular Warframes for the aforementioned tasks if they weren't able to keep themselves composed to a certain extent.
@@tellmeninetails5819 the horse riding analogy is incorrect. Just before performing transference for the "first time" the drifter says, "Can't be harder than riding a horse can it?" That line does not really convey that the drifter thinks operating a warframe is like riding a horse, they are comparing the difficulties of the two actions, not the actions themselves.
After seeing more examples of sapient autonomous Warframes with Sorren and Jade, I firmly believe Our Warframe snapped and tried to save us, after all, we're connected for a veeeeery long time and that's a bond hard to break.
I believe your theory is correct. One thing that I noticed is that Tenno brings out the humanity/light in people like with the zariman crew from dying. This could possibly mean that the bond between Tenno and Warframe restores some form of humanity to the frame leading to saving the tenno life
From this we might infer that there is a sort of geometry of archetypes in the Warframe universe. One where opposites exist solely because of their counterparts; e.g. the Tenno representing child-like compassion as opposed to Orokin jaded tyrannical cruelty. But more than that, there always exists something in the middle - neither a conjunction or disjunction, inherently paradoxical. Perhaps personified as the Indifference but definitely represented metaphorically in the Sun/Moon dialog choices made in cut scenes of various main quests.
My favourite theory and the thing I thought that happened is that the warframes have some will of their own(also I thought that the stalker was a sentient frame). So I assumed that our warframe liked us enough to do it
Edit: This video showed up for me again. I finished every quest available for now like a month ago and it turns out I was right about the stalker. And turns out original warframes(so the ones not made on the orbiter by us) are in fact sentient. So that's cool
Honestly, I get the feeling that it would've had some ties to the Echoes of Umbra (A supposedly scrapped item that would've been able to give all of the Warframes Umbra's Passive Ability. it was announced around the same time as Disruption as a gamemode.)
My personal belief is that the Warframes retain their humanity, or sense of self, but due to the infestation, it is inhibited, overtaken by the unfaultering rage of the helminth. And only after the Tenno calm that do they regain said humanity, in Umbra's case at least. For the other warframes I believe their tenno would have had to do something to them to allow them to regain control, something we are unaware of, perhaps it is what ballas had done to Umbra to allow him to retain his memory and sentience after we obtain him.
At first I had always thought chroma was being controlled by the sentient based pelt he wears, since the tenno disappeared, it got control, but now I am starting to rethink that because of the mentioning of how it was trying to keep something a secret...
Hopefully we will get 1999 soon to elaborate, if not some spacing updates prior.
anyways wonderful video as always!
I think we'll find out more in 1999 for certain. I really do think they are gonna show more of the "making of the frames" if you will. I can't wait. Thank you for checking the vid out!!!
When I first played it, I saw it more as the Warframe itself protecting the Operator, having made such a strong bond over time, and without us, the Warframe itself knows it can have no peace and no "life" and only silence. Especially after having done Umbra questline, seeing how we bring peace of mind to the frame, it's one of the more unique frames there is, with its more free will and act as it wants. It shows the frames has a personality, just us making them calm down, peace of mind. So for me, them wanting to protect us makes sense in my mind. Our frame is so sluggish with movement, struggling to do the simplest of things, while Umbra later on have full range of motion because of its more unique circumstances
i don't know if it's just a coincidence or I'm just overthinking it but I found this:
Xata (Truth): We learned the truth about ourselves in the second dream, and the about our past in the war within
Jahu (Form): The man in the wall first appearance in the game as he took our for in the end of "Chains of Harrow".
Vome (Order): We made took control of the Umbra and learned that our void power made the Warframes mind stable by "taking away their pain"
Fass (Chaos): The new war.
Ris (light): Same as Albrecht did describe it: "The senselessness of it, the paradoxic, the vague untime form" We learned about the void and it's ability to manifest emotions and "ideas" into a physical forms, we learned that through "Angel of the Zariman" and "Duviri Paradox" and "Citrine's last wish".
KHRA (Time): The time travel of Albrecht, I don't know if the "Whispers in the Wall" count or we shall wait for the next ones.
The last two (Netra and Lohk) or three (counting Oull) requiem words are to be answered in the upcoming quests.
maybe you overthought this, but... I am inclined to believe that you may indeed be on to something here. However, Khra (Time) referring to Albrechts activities, when the rest of what you have said refers to our own, this simply doesn't seem to fit in this context. If we want to fit Whispers in the Walls into this we need to look at it differently, at how our actions affected time.
Khra (Time): Our first (accidental) attempt to travel into the past via transference, arriving too late and dooming one possible version of reality to a dark and indifferent fate. Through eternalism, the repercussions of this may still come to haunt us even if we get it right the next time and arrive on time in 1999.
My main theory is that it was similar to an umbra situation for like a one time thing (haven’t seen video it hasn’t premiered yet)
Well, I'll be curious what you still think after the video!
Any thoughts?
In the update, Dante Unbound, Loid has a new quote when you talk to him about researching Dante that I feel is extremely important to this topic. He says,
"Warframes cannot speak, as a rule. Their creator decided they should only scream, or roar, or howl. Dante spoke through his writing, and his voice was beautiful."
I see this is as giving credence to the "The Warframe awoke and pulled the sword from its body" argument (which I personally believe, and have always believed, ever since I first experienced The Second Dream quest for myself.) Loid knows about the Tenno, or "Void Orphans" as he calls them, so why didn't he instead say, "Warframes cannot speak, as a rule. Their creator decided they should only scream, or roar, or howl. Dante's *Void Orphan* spoke through his writing, and his voice was beautiful."? That just doesn't make any sense to me at all. If that were the case, he would've viewed Dante the same way he views his Necraloid self, a "construct", nothing more.
So no, I will never accept the idea that Warframes are nothing more than empty husks only for the Tenno Operators to parade around like some sort of puppet. Warframes have too much unique personality for me to believe that, plus, they were around before the Zariman incident occurred. Dante's lore also insinuates that he wasn't even created for combat in the first place, designed more to be a scholar, and that he did not share the same berserk and overly aggressive temperament that many of the other Warframes exhibited.
Also don't forget that the transference pods made the tenno operators drift into sleep, controlling the warframes through subconscious and this made them think they WERE the frames they were assigned to. Do this for years, possibly decades, and the warframe became them, so that is why they have personalities. They were different probably because each frame channels their power differently.
Why do I see you everywhere my guy. Glad you’re here though sharing your passion for warframe still
33:58 this here makes me really want umbra to be able to walk around and mess with stuff in the orbiter while you’re not piloting him, like imagine walking around as your Operator and he’s there, petting your cat or fumbling around with void relics or your mods
I would absolutely love that...
Ordis heavily implies that that is something that Umbra does in the new quest lol
I think that the reason the Leverian has stories of Warframes acting with personalities was because it was Tenno acting with personalities.
So when a Tenno did something, it was attributed to the Warframe they were using. I also think that each Tenno probably got their own specific frame, which is why there’s consistent characterization.
Rell had Harrow. Harrow's motif is a dark silent priest. Rell was not really a talkative person and his acts when he sacrifice himself on his belief that the man in the wall was real and a threat to everything can be interpreted as a priest taking on the duty to fight for their beliefs n" dealing with evil spirits that posed as a threat.
To build on this, it'd make sense for tenno to have a similar personality to the frame to basically guarantee successful transference
@@Venitas751So the Tenno of Atlas was just a kid who liked to punch REALLY hard?
This
I'm also a firm believer of this as far as the Leverian and the stories of the past
I do wonder if it's lore-accurate or simply for game design that we can replicate blueprints to forge copies of Warframes. If lore-accurate, then that means none of our frames have any consciousness (aside from Umbra), and the frame moving in The Second Dream was just a precursor to the ability we would discover and be able to fully control in The War Within
I would love a quest where we can make a warframe of our choice completely sentient like umbra. Only one though. Great video as always Siege
ME TOO!!! REVENANT! Thank you btw!
It would really suck if you chose a frame, and later on, one was released that you would prefer but couldn't switch.
Only one.
But you can switch it to a different frame if you want.
@@thealchemistking4063 👍
Kinda like your front-man in a pokemon team.
The rest stay in their balls, but your main man stays out and adventures with you in person.
I always just assumed that the tenno was still 'waking up' and used transference remotely just enough to control it slightly. I think this was always the case, but now we have extra content that adds more NEW options. (aka this was never canon before these new things were added)
31:14
The stalker most definitely has his own orbiter or at least a landing craft, as it directly shows what his looks like in the “Hunhows Gift” pack.
It’s a sentient modified Scimitar Drop Ship.
Well that explains that then, huh?
@@TheDsIEGE
And then DE had to go and drop a whole new ship design xD
I Think Stalker/Hunhow Accidentally Created A WireLess Conection Bewteen The Tenno And Warframe
Shadow Stalker Is Linked To War Thanks To Hunhow (And His Armor Pieces), After Stalker Stabs Our Warframe And Leaves The Sword War, He Picks Us Up And Grabs Us,
We Were In Contact With Stalker And Our Frame With The Sword, Making Some Weird Conection, Making The Tenno Able To Still Control Them, That's Why The Frame Instantly Goes To Idle The Moment The Sword Breaks, Because It Lost The Only Connection It Had To The Tenno (Via Hunhow And Stalker)
Im still in the boat that it was either Imprinting, where it isnt too far fetched that both operator and warframe have imprinted onto each other. Similar to how the Operator identifying as Umbra when questioned on who killed Isaah.
Or worse, it was Wallie as a contingency for when the Chosen Operator life is on the line. In our orbiter we are quite literally as far as possible from his influence; but, during the New War our frame not only had no reaction to our death, but the reveal that Wallie was on the other side of the gate plays into it further. (Not including the missing time between our death and revival via the drifter, as we saw bits and pieces of our prison manifesting as the Zariman, but time has passed in reality, the Zariman, and Duviri left unaccounted for.)
i said it once, but your channel is probably my best source of ideas and lore explanations for my warframe fanfic. Thank you not only for the lore but just for makin these so well!
Could be a mix of both. Two minds acting as one, and that's a Warframe on the battlefield, similar to Jaegers from Pacific Rim. When the Tenno is held by the neck, they could be unconsciously calling for help, through the void, which the Warframe could possibly "hear" and "awake" to.
A small shed of consciousness. One that was in a long period of peace, disturbed by the cries of the one who brought it to them.
Most of these Leverian stories are told as if there's no Tenno because no one knew of their existence.
As mentioned in the video, however, there could be others who used the helminth strain on themselves. A possibility being that Stalker and his acolytes could of been Dax who used the strain on themselves. This would eventually drive them insane, yes, but being hell bent on killing someone sounds like insanity to me.
What an excellent presentation! I didn't know about the conflicting theories -- always assumed it was the Tenno. Really enjoyed exploring alternates
I'm glad! That was the goal here, just present data and let you all make your own decision!
I feel like one very important factor to look at when observing how our warframes work should also be crafting. Although simply a gameplay mechanic for with a time requirement to build the warframes you need, umbra is special because of the fact that he was rebuilt with the parts of the original, being brought back like a Frankenstein monster rather than being built using a blueprint. Having a blueprint and pouring resources into a mold just shows that we are replicating what was there, but not what IS there now. The leverian stories might have had stories of warframes acting by themselves before the helminth strain did its thing, or stories like Voruna where a Tenno was at play. But the suits we use now are just reconstructed bio machines of what once was, as even by opening relics of the past you will only find more advanced blueprints for prime warframes, but never the original parts. For me, this means that the biological function is there, but the first host infected with the strain is not required, and can also be replicated.
I interpreted Ballas’ speech in the vitruvian being true to their perception: that the original warframes were completely sane, but overestimated their power and rebelled against the Orokin. Thus the Orokin destroyed the originals, but continued to experiment on their clones, continuously attempting, through varying levels of lobotomy, to excise their rebellion, until they were left with feral warframes which, unfortunately for the Orokin, still didn’t take orders well. With the advent of the Tenno as controllers, even the ferality was excised, leaving a mostly blank slate for the Tenno to inhabit. Umbra is unusual, then, because he has that one tortuous memory to anchor his ego; I don’t think that’s standard for warframes.
I agree, but with one caveat. What we know from Ballas was from a communique to Hunhow. Being the a superlative shadowmaster he was (is?), I suspect he shared only enough to be persuasive, not informative. Once again, DE Steve plays some hard-core poker.
It seems there’s some truth to that, according to Kullervo’s lore.
@@johnpayne7873 with Ballas it is hard to say. Everything says that first and foremost he was a clinical idiot, each of his decisions has shot back massively. So another failed project looks completely inline here, applying malice seems excessive to me. He tried to be a "shadowmaster", but was outplayed extremely easily and willingly, you may even say he was naive.
And I hope he indeed "was", and DE won't resurrect this failure of an Orokin.
@@Blackwing2345635 Interesting post … got me thinking of how a measure of incompetence may have been the norm amongst the Orokin elite. Rather like most stultified civilizations of the past and nations of the present
@@johnpayne7873 rather ignoring the world around. They are arrogant, overconfident, self-absorbed, etc., but not THAT incompetent. But Ballas literally an idiot plus to all of that. And, honestly, Orokin society was trying to stop him from some of his fatal mistakes (just like one of the core rules being creating sentient, meaning exactly self-conscious, machines).
I love that you talk about the stalker having his own orbiter and then DE recently released the teaser art for the jade shadows update.
RIGHT???!
Silvana fled her assignment and was hunted by the Orokin's soldiers (Dax). Titania sacrificed herself to rescue her. This altruistic act could not have been done by a Tenno for several reasons.
For one, Silvana despite not being a Tenno learned how to perform Transference with Titania. This was a secret series of tests; Silvana couldn't have been entering Titania if a Tenno was occupying her.
Secondly, she then abandoned Titania when she fled, but Titania was able to find her again. If Titania was Tenno-controlled then that would have to mean she told the Tenno where she was going.
Thirdly, her act of rebellion happened much earlier than Ballas' coup, If a Tenno supported her then that would have caused animosity and distrust between the Orokin and the Tenno. But the Orokin went on relying on the Tenno throughout the Old War and did not see Ballas' coup coming, so they couldn't have perceived the Tenno as potentially rebellion until much later.
Fourth, Silvana was one of the inventors of Transference, yet she had no gratitude for the Tenno when Titania saved her. She would have known if it was Titania or a Tenno, but she said that Titania gave her life to rescue her. The foremost expert on Transference was basically testifying that a Warframe acted independently.
So the Silver Grove events clearly show a capacity for Warframe independence, especially when it comes to protecting someone that has performed Transference into them. I think what makes Transference possible is a mutual understanding and an alignment of values. You don't "wear" a Warframe, you "become" that Warframe. You don't invade their mind, you harmonize with it. But I also believe the Orokin didn't understand that because they lacked empathy, so their documentation doesn't show that. But Tenno who become one with their Warframes do, and after long enough they start to forget that they're separate entities from their Warframes (and I believe it works the other way around as well).
Other thing I'd like to add is that we see evidence of that harmonization all through the game. Both the Operator and the Warframe contribute to the final personality. While idle, why does Octavia dance, Wisp giggle, Gara taunt, and Khora tease? Are we to believe the Tenno is choosing to do this all on his or her own? Also, why would the history of a Warframe even matter if they're just suits to wear? Even the small descriptions on frames have phrases like "Team Player" or "Trickster." How can the Tenno have a different personality just from swapping one frame out with the next?
I think often times without any of us knowing, Warframe is making us do this. Depending on what frame your main is, your playstyle will change. Is it your playstyle that chose the frame? Or is it the frame that influenced your playstyle? It's a little of both, right? Like you're harmonizing with that frame.
If instead it was 100% Tenno-controlled, then these differences would be very silly. The Tenno is off committing one massacre after the next, fighting to save the entire system, but still does it while "cosplaying" whatever character they think is cool? Seems a bit callous. It would be more appropriate to think that there is an alternative "silly" personality soaking into the "serious" one, making the Tenno dance and flirt while the Tenno is trying to harness that madness to achieve their goals.
The key to the answer is Gara. Each Warframe was originally a human being with desires, feelings and self-determination. Fusion at the cellular level with the virus created by Orokin erased many of these characteristics, but not completely.
And to return to the Gara, many forget the one that she preserves most of what the Gara used to be: Unum.
What I want to say is that the fusion with the Infestation leads to new forms of existence and identity.
In conclusion, every warframe retains parts of self-determination and that is the key. In fact, Umbra proves this unequivocally. Each frame has latent sentient capacity.
Maybe we should be more careful how we use these warframes, because our actions have an impact on what were once human beings.
would the subsuming of frames free them then?
@@Nomolun_Vr, so it seems. Judging by the flowers that are sprouting throughout this process and all in happy colors...I don't know, but I prefer to think so.
@@UmbraFulgur its quite sad when you think about it this way...wish i could hold onto the frames ive gotten close to without needing more slots..
So excited to see your take on this!! I have a few theories whirling around but wanna see what you think!! Can't wait!
We'll see if we can't all come to an agreement afterwards... I'm guessing it will still be NO, lol
26:55 there is documentation of someone other than a tenno controlling a warframe by way of transference, namely in the silver grove quest
That's silvana and she didn't control one, she used transference to shift her mind into the silver grove. She used specters to attack us
One thing to note is that are operator looks just as confused if you look at him in the background especially the way his head lifts to look at the Warframe so i would like to think that it was instinctive reaction from the Warframe not full sentence
I'm a big fan of our warframe move on it own i know it would not make sense with the sacrifice. But as someone who use the same warfame for the story it more fun to think that over the journey our warframe piece it mind for one last act to save us.
I like how much theorycrafting players can come up with. It allows DE to use some of those aspects for later updates.
I couldn't agree more!
you know i actually wana see umbra only missions kinda like with khal in drifters camp. show that he isnt just sitting in our arsenal but actually doing stuff and when we use him its more like calling in a favor
could even introduce it as a mission where we get a mail from umbra but opening it causes him to transference to us and he talks. have a mission where we go to the control room and can swap between controlling umbra or tenno. could be an interesting mission
That would be a nice addition
A youtuber "Corgthemighty" made a video about warframes that illustrates this subject well.
There are 3 generations of warframes (4 now with 1999)
Gen1: are like stalker and chroma, as well as mesa, who can act entirely of their own accord, are often frantic, and seemingly cannot be controlled.
Gen2: are like umbra and jade, who possess most of their minds, but can be overridden and controlled through transference.
Gen3: are our warframes, mere blueprints, copies, as hunhow puts it "no sense, no self, no death. Just a metal puppet, dangling on tenno strings.
bonus
gen 4: are the proto frames like arthur, aoi, amir, quincy, levi, and eleanor, in full possession of their free will, and cannot be controlled even through transference. (the whispers in the walls quest part where we control arthur is implied to be his own actions, as he does not panic, but recognizes that we are present in his head.)
I ve always had a theory that the stalker resides in a ship near the sun. When youre in the Navigation if you zoom on the sun and look Northwest of it, you see the silhouette/shadow of what appears to be a Liset Ships profile and another shadow.
Of course this can be just a game texture thing that coincidentaly resembles our Ship, but i have always found it curious
I've never noticed that before, i'll have to check it out
31:24 "But, he's built different."
you just accurately described the concept of The Man in the Wall in 4 simple words. astounding.
awesome video, been watching a lot of your lore breakdowns recently :) long overdue sub
Thank you and I appreciate you!!!!
Another great video as always, much appreciated TheDsIEGE!
I am currently of the opinion that most frames are puppets with memories or maybe more like a person in a coma. The infestation allows them to perceive their surroundings, while the Tenno is able to calm or soothe their lingering emotions, allowing them to control (but more in a partnership way.) Reason the Drifter has a little trouble adjusting when they first try one out in NW where they mention a riding a horse. I believe in the second dream cutscene, it's the Warframe in proximity to the Tenno's growing self and growing understanding of their powers that activates the half of the Warframe's inner self, and as a way to pay forward the easing of the Warframe's pain of no control they then reach out to protect. But none of this is set in stone, in my mind, yet I believe the 1999 expansion will give us a few more inferences to what exactly are Warframes, so the idea will likely shift or grow during that I believe.
Also I believe the duality of mind in Warframe and Tenno convergence to be backed by the infestation and how it affects the mind, if you look at the Entrati this can slightly be inferred during their meetings and the leveling of their reputation levels. Just like the Sister and Brother fighting over dominance in Deimos, both are of the same creature but fighting one another. We need a deeper dive into how much of a warframe is infestation and how much is the hero or warrior chosen to become one.
I believe it's the 2nd half.
Also, i speculate/hope there's other tenno (that are not players) that we'll eventually meet, and a theory to splinter off of the idea, and that's related to the video my threory is that maybe it was another tenno that momentarily took control of the frame to help us.
(i just thought of this instead of a tenno it could have been the man in the wall)
The other tenno thing has to be a thing yet... they don't really talk about it much in the lore. It's kinda weird because the other players we see are supposed to be from different timelines so... where are the other tenno?
@TheDsIEGE maybe that's an idea for a video
could've been a drifter/operator from different timeline/multiverse
I thought I recognized that piano at that first segment!
"Denied The Light" is such a good track from Fear And Hunger Termina!
It was the power of love! (no, actually this is a correct statement according to warframe lore)
It's always the power of love, just like huey lewis said. Can you feel it!?!?!
The entrati lab fragment about "partial" warframes may be the explanation about Arthur wearing excalibur's "carapace". Still waiting for DE to explore rogue chroma and warframe breaking the war.
Revenant is my favorite Warframe too. He is so awesome and so broken. He reminds me of Talion from Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War.
There's nothing better than seeing all the enemies bowing and completely paralyzed just for shooting at me. That, is real power.
@@TheDsIEGE One ability to rule them all.
I have noticed we cant control each others Warframes yet so I believe every Warframe we craft is connected to us like a lesser intelligence that might not understand but wants to keep us safe so like a protect the pact mentality.
I do think there's a connection with specific tenno to warframe. Like a key to a car!
If you look at rhino prime his description has a little lore about him awakening and try to take revenge
When I did this my Warframe was Inaros
I’d like to think the long lost soul who piloted him originally decided to wake up and help one last time
I feel like perhaps in the past where most stories regarding each Warframe take place, a lot of Warframes were still capable of functioning on their own in the sense that the Tenno wasn't directly controlling them. Like how Umbra is able to accompany us now and not simply revert to being enraged all the time - Having a tenno linked to the Warframe was just enough for some of them to not go ballistic all the time.
4:47 that's a very nice way to explain why we can switch between frames
Before my last Warframe hiatus, I was a child, and once I came back I was an adult. Your lore videos have helped me comprehend this game’s lore to a crazy degree. I loved it when I was young, but now I can love warframe even more now that I know what is going on 😂
Great video!
As far as I remember, the voiced diary of Ballas during the Sacrifice quest mentioned that the warframe program was working as intended at first, and only after some time did they lose control. Maybe the mind was corroded by the infestation gradually, and without specific control options like with the umbra, they just continued living as soldiers, amassing achievements.
You brought me some more insight about the nature of Tenno's being. I had all pieces of info, they just didn't connect into a sigle thought. So we are just of the "Void Demon" family, pure consciousness, and the Lua was CONTAINMENT to prevent escape. I guess the game's tutorial presents us with a warframe "sealed" while the transference was still active, preventing Tenno's escape.
Thanks for activating my thought process in this regard :)
I love the lore of this game and it's so nice to see people still making content on it
Spy missions (in warframe) are not so forgiving, but the fires spy mission in the second dream hits me hard. Like the difficulty when from zero to 1000 in just the moment I try not to set of alarms.
Would stay up can’t can’t keep my eyes open
Thank you for the comment but I promise it will still be here tomorrow for you!
@@TheDsIEGE just enjoy watching live and the theorising
How about I raised drifter in this case? With all time travel going on in 1999 and lotus choose the drifter to go back in time instead of tenno in the recent quest. Lotus must be asking drifter to do stuff for her like saving tenno in this quest or wake the warframe in the awakening quest. In the trailer, she looks like drifter ngl.
1999 isn’t just time travel. It’s a parallel world/timeline.
from lore perspective, best channel there is.
always nice to chill with TheDsIEGE videos and voice.
I absoluetly love when ballas speaks history in warframe. I just feel like the voice actor shows a mystery but also with pleasing voice.
When it comes to the Leverian, I believe each Warframe is Tenno controlled, and each story is told from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the Tenno exists. The Orokin did do such a good job at hiding the Tenno that they themselves forgot they were human and believed they were the Warframes when coming out of the Second Dream.
As for Chroma I believe it was being controlled by either Hunhow, or the sentient that it had killed, skinned, and was using as its cloak as it was seemingly searching for Hunhow by chasing the signal provided by the arcane codices. As for other quests it's been so long since I completed them that I can't remember what happened off the top of my head.
As for the Second Dream instance, I believe the Warframe moved on its own. Partly because I love the thought of it wanting to save us. My theory is that all frames, excluding umbra, have been numbed by their extended therapeutic connection to the Tenno that they're basically in a sleep/meditative state mentally. If Umbra is anything to go by, the pain from the process of being turned into a warframe seems to be the only thing their minds are able to focus on and becomes their driving force from there on. So with that taken away, they become less active and again fall into a sleep or meditative like state allowing the Tenno to take full control.
Grammar Edit
Interesting... I like that end part and never really thought about that. This episode really opened my mind to others being able to "transfer" essentially by using continuity, so... Yeah, Everything is on the table now, huh? And I agree, I think the tenno control them too
Great Video. Thank you for your wonderful work here. it really reminds me why I love Warframe so much.. The story is soo deep and "well presented" its highly fragmanted and it took them over 10 years to come this State :) ButI love to solve it and learning more each year. its a long run but definitely a good one. Thanks again for making rhis video .
I believe the warframes still have their humanity but stays still when not controlled because they're in peace but they move when needed to save their operator. My theory is supported by the story of Citrine and how it "saved" Belric and Rania trapping them in her crystal to protect them.
If I remember correctly, there was at least one point where DE was going o give us the ability to give any Warframe sentience, at least to some degree. That would indicate that all of them had the potential to be like Umbra and function at least to some degree independently. But at some point that seems to have just been forgotten. Depending on how you look at that, it could be a clue as to how DE interperpates the sentience in Warframes as well.
This awesome video reminded me of several key moments in my warframe career. Selecting Loki as my starter frame (remember that?), the tenno reveal in the Second Dream, the Sacrifice quest, and playing as Arthur. I really look forward to more quests from this game. The combat and looting is fun, but the lore is what keeps me playing.
I love the video. I must say after the video I started wondering about my own opinion. I think Warframe moved on ots own... But really after the video, I am not sure any more. Tho, to be fair, I am still leaning toward that warframe moved.
Umbra was probably uniquely made, but also, when we build Umbra, we use Kuva to make it. No other frame uses kuva (explains the indipendent will). Also, the RHino codex... I think what scientist see at first, was Rhino acting on its own. Only when Rhino gets near the pods where kids are placed (when Davis say that this is the place where they cept survivors from the Zariman), is when Rhino stops and becomes calm, looking at his hands (much like we see at the resevoar in Second dream). That is clear point that Tenno enters semi conscious warframe.
When Drifter enters warframe, there is a moment where he staggers and actually say outloud "whoooah, easy... easy" (Much like one would say to a horse to calm it down) which is kind of showing that warframe was unsettled or even vexed when it felt the different presence. (It calmed down soon after, when warframe recognized the drifter as operator)
Also... Mirage prime trailer say that human who became mirage distorted the original creation, So it kind of means that their mind remains somewhere, traped. An Octavia prime trailer say "our haunted creations will need drum beats to drown out the throb of helminth blood" again implying there is a sentience inside the warframe.
Besides, I can't think of a bigger horror then to make someones mind forever traped in agony, without posibility of escape. And THAT would be the reason why Tenno rebeled against Orokin. Why would they destroy entire civilization...
See? It's the uncertainty now that makes me love making these videos!!!
It’s cool how in his speech he says Despair, Dread and Hate his weapons.
Thematically, Warframe draws from two deep metaphysical wells, Buddhism and Jung. Both are motivated by the existential conundrum of suffering (or conflict) but offer different solutions. In the former, the answer to pain is detachment while the latter requires integration. Either way, both demand acceptance of some ultimate truth or reality.
My impression is that the game lore is attempting to offer a middle path. One where shedding identity as a final stage of consciousness can be along side retaining some semblance of self. Not only that, but these opposites exist as a continuum.
So for some (most?) who were made into warframes, "going into that good night" was a welcomed release, no shred of any identity remains. Their former twisted physical forms nothing more than a living fossil. One that can be animated by Tenno.
For those whose with savagely strong survival instincts, the only notion of a self that remains is fear of annihilation. Fight or flight. An automated response to threat that might be the basis for some the unique abilities of the various warframes.
Those who were driven by feelings that intensely connected them to something - a person or group, a place, an ideal - what remains of their identity prompts them to stay as willing golems. To serve as vengeful ghosts or protective angels who "sleep nothing" while the Tenno is away, but join in when called upon.
Whether Excalibur Umbra is a major outlier is unclear, given whether the details of memory the Tenno had access to was done through direct to the physical brain or whether it was through Void time-line buggery.
Ultimately, each person who became a warframe has an individual choice of whether and of how to be present in the Tenno reality line. There is no "one size fits all".
Moreover, the Principle of Eternalism would assert that the choice need not be permanent - or rather a singular one.
We should get a vid about Ordan, Ordis before being turned into a cephalon
When you redo the quest with Umbra so the question doesn't matter lol
I believe the Lotus was the one who manipulated the Warframe to aid us, the Tenno, since we didn't retain much memory of ourselves after awakening from the Second Dream. Moreover, we didn't achieve full control over void energy and transference until we underwent the War Within quest. I speculate that the Lotus possesses the ability to manipulate or influence Warframes to some extent, though she may not wield complete mastery over them. Our understanding of the Lotus and her true capabilities remains limited. She maneuvered the moon into the void, directing and commanding some Tenno in the Prelude to War quest, and is aware of the Man in the Wall, yet she continues to withhold numerous secrets from us.
This video is truly remarkable, as always.
Lotus can't control warframes. She's a sentient
@ajreyes3674 she's still void touched, and the drifter used the lotus's hand to control warframes.
Entrati family: we created the Nekramechs, they can't be hacked by the Tau!
Other Orokin: We created bioweapons, the Tau can't hack living creatures!
Ballas: I created biorobots - warframes and gave them AK-47s, they can't be hacked!
Lotus, literally Princess Tau: ha ha, I made the warframe move.
One thing that I notice is every frame “acts” different, the agile or noble animation, idle poses, ways they move, I think every frame we build as a “clone” of the original has just a bit of the person who was transformed, not a full mind maybe but something.
Why would the Tenno made Yareli act like a giggly teenage girl or Altus a boxer? Why does Kora languish her whip around herself and Grendel do sumo stomps if it’s just one person piloting? Perhaps it’s kind of like Pacific Rim where each warframe is Tenno and Frame in concert
I think it’s partly to help our Tenno choose our personality. Everyone has that 1 warframe they truly love cause it acts like them.
Khora for me cause she has her own kavat. Kavat (like a typical cat) can be comfort for a person. Plus her move set is to keep people away from her.
I think the devs gave them personality most to give each player, their personal warframe. Less of a storyline thing.
I believe that our warframe did infact animate itself to aid us, the umbra quest really shows us how exactly we connect to the frames, we touch their mind and calm their horrific trauma. We are basically the only thing giving them peace from their endless, awful existence.... (omfg total sidetrack upon hearing something, we are called tenno right? The children of the zariman tenn0... tenn-0... tenno 😐 very creative, anyway) i think that the umbra quest was made directly as an answer to this question, designed to show us the horrific process used to create a warframe and how we are just sharing their body as a tool to direct our void energy, a focus crystal of sorts
I believe the leverian stories are teno, many or a single one.
I understand teno can control their Warframes some anywhere once they mastered transference; but in the second dream, that one warframe, our main the one we have spent milenia being one and the same with, just for a brief moment recovered enough consciousness overcoming its pain in order to save its other half.
Warframes are archetypes worn as personas. This event shows that archetypes have an aparrent life of their own. In real life this follows both poll answers. It acts as a singular entity... but is also just an amalgamation of the dreams of others. The same paradox applies to the concept of self - self is both singular and plural. In that paradigm, puppet and puppeteer may be interchangeable concepts, a reciprocal bond like a symbiosis. Merging with a warframe then would be like being an avatar of its traits incarnate, able to shape those traits while the traits simultaneously shape them. What if... the stalker is just another frame connected to the tenno with aparrent autonomy. After all he mimics the tenno's movements when questioning his identity. Btw the archetypal nature of excalibur as a leader's weapon of destiny is explored with the service weapon in control - a game that revolves around jung's theories.
After playing through the sacrifice quest my interpretation is the warframe moved of its own will (limitedly) to save the tenno operator. Plus my volt i had from day 1 doing it made it feel extra special :)
My feeling still is that the warframes minus Umbra are basically a husk now and the second dream intervention was the Tenno unknowingly using thier transference powers but not doing it well.
I do feel like considering DE had long ago thought of giving us a way to make other warframes be like Umbra and assist us in the battlefield freely that it will make the lore wildly subject to change if they ever reintroduce the concept.
Personally I think it would be cool. That would support instances like Chroma seemingly acting on its own possibly.
There is the potential here.. for a somewhat third option of the contact with the recently awoken tenno may have "healed" more of the warframe's personality.. allowing it to act in that brief moment.. both sides of the argument kind of need some assumptions to be true unfortunately. Or it could have been some survival programing deep it's mechanical components.
I love the idea of Warframes being slightly sentient, not autonomous like how Umbra is, but knowing when to protect themselves and the operator.
Another way to look at it is how all Warframes have residual personalities from their original hosts who were turned into them by the Orokin. That, plus the strain used to create the Warframes, probably also has a degree of self-preservation, causing it to remove what it perceived as a danger to itself and the operator. Breaking the sword in half wasn't necessarily its plan, but it's just what happened because it most likely didn't have enough power to do more than that.
I've always been a fan of the "warframe are sort of alive" theories so I always just believed it was the warframe acting on its own to help us. Like some form of really REALLY basic sentience. Nothing outstanding without the operator in control, but more like "oof ouch there's something sharp tearing my insides up, I need to get this out with the little energy I have left"
Man I always love watching Siege's videos. It's always fun to speculate on the lore of one of my favorite games :D
That's why I love making them!
**Denied the light** is amazing song.
im surprised how well it works for warframe.
Ive never considered this, i always assumed it was lotus...
But knowing about the frames, i kinda like the idea that the tennos distress woke the frame long enough to save them
although it was released way after, I like to think it was actually the drifter pushing past the barrier between timelines to save the tenno and in addition the origin system.
A wonderful video as always.
I still stand with my answer ' the Warframes moved by themselves', and here is why. If you go by what Ballas says 12:14, when he created the Warframes, they became mad like the infested. that means they lost their minds and ability to control themselves, but what if they were able to retain that control through strong mind or " emotion", like Excalibur Ambra. His anger was strong enough to control his body. then when he is control by the tenno, he can assist them when he is not being control. why? I think its because either he is used to move his body because of his strong anger emotions OR his infesting process was different somehow from the others. but the former can be said for the other warframes, tho its not as strong as Ambra. You even said it, many of the warframes stories have them acting in their own accords. Maybe that is because of whatever strong emotion or well was prevailing at the time.
Keep in mind what ballas said 14:51, they did all of those things to the warframes to trying to make them numb so they can be easily controlled. Watch any content where someone who goes through these things and become numb, the moment they feel a somewhat strong emotion they will immediately act upon it without thinking the consequences or care in mind.
Sorry of the long comment
I noticed something in the Stalker entry in Albrecht's lab that I think everyone has skipped over, would be interested in hearing your thoughts. The entry says, 'Appearance and combat capability suggest The Stalker is a surviving Low Guardian'. 'Appearance' and 'Combat capability'. It suggests that the Low Guardians all looked like Stalker does and had Warframe combat capabilities like Stalker. Makes me think Stalker and Acolytes were all Low Guardians and were always some form of hybrid Warframe, like Arthur. Thoughts?
Absolutely possible. And... we still don't really have context on what a low guardian is yet but... my original thought was that "the orokin's greatest" might not necessarily mean only a particular class. I wonder if the best of each section maybe, low guardians included were chosen based on their own personal proficiency as warriors, maybe the difference between like a general soldier and special ops... Guaranteed there are still some A plus warriors in basic infantry, you know? I'm hoping we get more with 1999 on that specific information...
@@TheDsIEGE Thanks for your thoughts! It's a small bit of info, but could be laying the groundwork for an expansion into Stalker/Acolyte lore
It is quite possible that both theories are true that the warframe indeed did move it self and we did too. When we crawled towards our warframe in the second dream we feelt it. The connection of asking for help from an old friend. It scooped us up from the ground not fully able to move like it used to but also with care, not pupeteered by us in the same way like before. Its quite possible that when we did that we atleast for an instant managed to bypass the transference bolt (the bolt that seperates umbra from our warframe) allowing the warframe to come back to sentience to help. In our hour of need it responded. (If only for a moment)
I believe the warframes are capable of their moments of independent actions like in the second dream and sacrifice, with some of the side missions being instances of that and others just being a "canon" tenno who only had the given frame at their disposal and was just doing their own adventure before we came along and we were just crossing paths with a pre-second dream mindset tenno.
Non-tenno can use transference, silvana did in the silver grove quest, and ballas used it on umbra through his unique transference bolt, when making him kill his own son, and onwards, which probably also plays a part in him keeping his memories, some control and such.
The other frames we have probably have a different bolt that makes them more of a husk, or potentially some other factors behind it, considering he was designed specifically to suffer and all.
I think lotus is very likely to take control on some ways, the fact it's likely she also took a deal with the man in the wall, her chamber looking like a transference pod almost.
Not to mention there is also a kinda cool parallel with the "they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing-- And take away its pain" between margulis(and I guess by extension lotus) and the tenno as well, not just tenno to Warframe... Idk tho!!
Very close but not quite in the same way as the tenno and also can't shift in and out of different ones, especially in the case of Silvana. It was a one way ticket for her in the end, which is probably the same as the unum... That being said, the parallels are there for certain! I'm hoping we get more on this in 1999, as there are still many questions left over after the whole tenno lotus saga, in my opinion at least!
@@TheDsIEGE Oh yeah it's 100% not the exact same as the tenno, I do have quite a few reasons for thinking why it could be different for Lotus. Most of it is un-confirmed stuff, speculation, stuff like that... so I could be super wrong.
It'll be cool to see what happens in 1999 though yeah, I think it could drag Lotus back into it the plot a bit for sure, atleast in some small way.
That scene leaves us questions about stalker too with what hunhow said.
My head cannon, at least up until watching this video, has always been that the warframes we are using now, are copies of the originals. We are printing them out and creating them from the materials the blueprints call for. The original warframes, the ones we are making copies of, were the ones created directly with the infestation, helminth and willing or untilling volunteers. That's how the original Inaros was known to Baro, but now we can create our copy for our own use, etc. If this isn't the case, then feeding the helminth one of these copies for it's ability takes on a whole new meaning. Something to chew over, no pun intended.
In the Sacrifice we see that the rage of Umbra is what keeps him subconscious, although not all warframes like Umbra have people in them they are still living things with emotions and subconscious attached that likely they take on the operators will/subconscious duties after be bonding with them for a period of time or are influenced by the void's conceptual embodiment.
You also see the operators' will is influenced given that warframes have stances causing them to behave certain ways in idle likely after the concept they embody from the void that gives them their powers just like incarnon weapons.
Using logic when it comes to the void is hilariously misunderstanding that it is everywhere and everything all at once but only once it touches it. Thus Wally only coming to be after Albert entered the void as prior to that [from the original system perspective at least] He didn't/ did exist. As before that from the Origin system perspective no self-aware consciousness has touched the void.
To continue this logic that means it very well could by us ourselves that saves us.
great take on this, I was always wondering what could have caused the Warframe to move by itself in that quest. I found it funny as it was never mentioned in game, like that was completely normal. Theories are fun
You're slow
@@uraveragewiteguy how so
I personally used Rhino Prime (basically my canon frame when it comes to quests, with one exception of Inaros when the Grineer Queens tried to do the mind corruption thing) it works with the frame's lore too since it went on a rampage so there was established it can move on its own.
ooo i like the theory that the leverian frames are pre-operator bond... my own hc ive puttered around with for a while is that the leverian frames are post-operator, with the idea that after each frame experiences tenno therapy, that theyre allowed free reign to conduct operations of their own volition, only being called upon by their tenno when the tenno, specifically, needs them. pre-operator bond feels a lot smoother of an explanation tho... much 2 consider