What If Baelon Lived? (House Of The Dragon)
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- Опубліковано 4 січ 2024
- Baelons death set the story in motion before it even began, so here my brief straightforward take on what could have happened had the kings first born son managed to live.
#breakdown #characteranalysis #explained #film #asoiaf #hotd #whatif #gameofthrones #houseofthedragon - Розваги
I think once he got a son
If Aemma had passed away
He wouldn’t have married again
Yeah, with a living son there would be less pressure for him to marry, he might be amiable to it after some time, which likely means that the match of him and Laena is offered when she’s old enough for it, and thus he doesn’t marry into the Hightowers.
If Rhaenyra still has bastards in the au I don’t think Corlys would be as accepting
If Baelon lived and lived long enough to rule as King and have his own children (esp. male and survived to adulthood), I'd say that there would not be Green v. Black. Sure, Alicent would still marry Viserys and had their children, but Baelon was the crown prince. Rhaenyra might still end up with Laenor though and then later on with Daemon....but her line wouldn't be in the thick of things unless Baelon's line ended then there might be that civil war coming but way way later.
Actually, 2 of Jaehaerys' children would outlive him. Vaegon. By now an archmaester at the citadel and the one who suggested the great council in the first place.
As well as Saera Targaryen, Jaehaerys' daughter and st the time the proprietor of a Volantene pleasurehouse.
ACTUALLY we don't actually know when Saera Targaryen died. We only know that she was alive in 101, but technically could have died before Jaehaerys who died in 103. Which isn't all that unlikely given her lifestyle...
I know it's picking a nit, but you started it...
@@tuplat5107 Well, by the time of the great council of 101 AC, she was only 34. I know she had bastards. But that doesn't mean she died between 101 and 103 AC.
Wasn't she in Pentos at the time? I thought she got offered the throne and turned them down because she pretty much already had a kingdom.
@@ronaldgargoyle3407 No. She started off in Lys. Then eventually went to Volantis. And she wasn't outright offered the throne. But she had a claim to it since she was still Jaehaerys' daughter. Though 3 of Saera's bastards did come to the great council of 101 to try and lay claim to the throne.
I was coming to the comments to make this exact statement. Lol
I feel like Otto would toy with the idea of a mishap on Baelon if it meant his grandson Aegon would be king. He does seem an oppertunist. Also Alicent was much different in the books then the tv show. If anything happened to Baelon I could see Daemon and Rheanyra pulling the same stunt with Laenor and then fighting for the throne (be it with much less support from the other kingdoms, but a suprise attack on kings landing in their favor).
I don’t think he would. Whilst Otto is an opportunist in this case of events he would still have a grandchild/great grandchild on the iron throne. Helena would marry Baelon and they would have children together, who would become the future kings, and Queens, meaning, as also, I would said there was still Hightower blood on the iron throne. This means the Otto would’ve still accomplished his goal without having to organise anything involving bloodshed. Much easier for him and less messy.
a mishap can also be a poisoning, making Baelon sick before he fathered children. Then Heleana would just be betrothed to Aegon instead, having his bloodline in both@@haloman117fanatic
@@Jeppe_P your right of course but it still seems like a lot of trouble and risk for something that will have the same result either way. If he started poisoning then there is a chance it would be found out. Otto doesn’t strike me as someone that would risk for so little reward (and poisoning for having more of your bloodline on the throne when it’s already there or will be at a later date is too little of a reward)
Its not guaranteed to have the same result. Baelon's personality will be important. He might dismiss Otto and Alicent, not treating his sisterwife well and send Aegon and Aemond back to oldtown with their mother. This would severely impact house hightowers influence, something Otto might not want to risk.@@haloman117fanatic
@@Jeppe_P I think this is one of those occasions where there are two trains of thought. Both of which are valid. You do have a point though when you say it would depend on Baelon. I can absolutely see Otto doing what say if Baelon was as you described. But I can also see my version playing out if he was good towards his Hightower relatives. Que the every time a targaarian is born coin flip proverb 😅
It's also possible Viserys' health doesn't go downhill to the extent as it does in canon in this scenario as the actor/director ect said it was the guilt over Aemma's death (and the fact that her sacrifice was for nothing with Baelon's death in the original timeline) and the added stress over the fallout naming Rhaenrya heir/her eventual feud with Alicent that created the downward spiral of his body falling apart. We could also propose that he remains fairly healthy (and much happier since Alicent and Rhaenyra still remain friends and has no reason to hate her half-siblings, which in turn would probably lead to better relationships between Viserys and them as well AND in this timeline he still has his brother). At worst maybe he still loses his finger or even his arm, but that stops the spread of the disease and he potentially could live to a much older age, making Baelon older when he takes the throne and *his* sons with Helaena older and more capable when that happens. Plus poor Viserys just deserved more happiness. ALSO it's a chain effect because one big factor that lead to the eventual downfall of the Targaeryens *was* the dance of the Dragons. With this never happening (and indeed more Targaryens/Velaryons surviving and being born dragons never go extinct in this timeline and probably only grow more numerous as there are more eligible riders for them ....leading to an avoidance of the conditions that allowed Robert Baratheon to seize the throne in the first place. Rhaenys was part Baratheon so its even possible the houses remained steadfast allies to the present. To add to that, because the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent never sours in this AU (and thus her kids having a much better relationship with the other children), instead of being desperate enough to try claiming Vhagar (Aemond even in canon had that moment where it looked like he was sympathetic to Lucerys/Baela's grief for a moment), it's also entirely possible that Rhaenyra gladly offers Aemond his pick of Syrax's eggs and he got a dragon that way and Rhaena once she recovers from her grief over her mother's death is the one who claims Vhagar in this timeline, avoiding the fight between the kids entirely.
Literally this question has been on my mind since the first episode, thank you for covering it!
Objectively? Viserys(show version) is a shit Dad. He ignored Rhaenyra most of her life, only finally paying attention when he mercs her mom. Then he didn't even notice that his other daughter is a dreamer, something that he for sure would have known the signs of. His oldest son with Allysan is a degenerate and Aemon is psychotic. So... For sure, he is a awful father.
How was he supposed to know Helaena was a dreamer? She never told him about her visions. At least Daenys told her father about her vision.
@@michonnewalker4246 If he spent any time with her, he'd know. Almost every time we see Helaena onscreen, she's saying some weird prophetic stuff. If Viserys was around at all, he would've picked up on it.
@@matthewhart9610 Even if he did spend time with her. He wouldn't have understood her visions even Alicent, Aegon and Aemond don't understand her.
He loved Rhaenyra. But he neglected all his other children. Which sucks since all Aegon wanted was his and Allicent's attention and he and Aemond could have turned out better
Baelon lives, Viserys names his firstborn son the heir, and all is well. The end. 😅
Honestly, whether Baelon or Aegon II, all Viserys has to do is use common sense and ensure his firstborn son is there to rule after he himself is dead.
If Aemma dies and Alicent marries Viserys, then one way or another, mayhaps Otto's blood may end up on the Throne or in some other spotlight position for the History books to read about. And if the situation doesn't work out for a marriage with Alicent, maybe he'll get rewarded with a Targaryen Princess to marry one of his sons.
Or if no marriage to them, there's plenty of other great Lords in Westeros Otto knows personally thanks to his position at court. So, Alicent marries Lord Lannister maybe, or someone else of high standing. And his sons forge their own paths.
Either way, I can see Baelon leading to a clean succession, and Otto Hightower would go on to serve as Hand of the King for a 3rd Targaryen Monarch for some time, and choose a solid successor for his position as well.
Great what if video. I would say however that Criston wouldn’t die because Alicent kept him for more than just their mutual hate for Rt n she had nobody. Alicent would still hire ser criston as her sworn shield n their will be tension with Rhaenyra. Because Rt will still have bastards n the eye for an eye would still happen. The families may not go to war but their will be fueds within the family n Baelon would have to deal with those issues as king.
Great video.
It did occur to me that though that Otto's tensions with Daemon could still have caused problems if Baelon was close to his uncle Daemon. Those two hated each other.
Also there's the ongoing possibility that if you postpone the Dance even a little you could get Dragon Proliferation-which changes everything.
What if Aemond was killed in the kids' fight in episode 7?
What if Daemon died in the Stepstones?
What if Viserys died earlier?
If Aemond died Alicent would want Lucerys head and Viserys would probably send him to the wall. Maybe an "Accident" happens there.
If Aemond died , Luke would have been either executed or sent to the Wall . If Daemon died , Laenor would have remained Rhaenyra's husband and they would have bent the knee to Aegon . If Viserys died earlier , the same thing happens just earlier
@@nicksmithnutmilk I meant if Viserys died in like episode 5, before Rhaenyra had kids and Aegon was still a toddler, and Otto wasn't Hand of the King.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul I think Lyonel would have made Rhaenyra Queen or Corlys would have convinced Rhaenys and Laenor to usurp the Throne and make Laenor King becuse Daemon was exiled and Rhaenyra wouldn't dare to fight against them .
And the Realm would have probably supported Laenor's claim since only Viserys had more votes then him at the Great Council of 101 . He even had more then Rhaenys and Daemon
@@nicksmithnutmilk Interesting idea, though it's definitely possible that the Hightowers can still go for their claimant, or support Laenor since they know he probably won't have kids.
I love this alternate fantasy run you're having, when will we get the sequel to the Rhaenys video?
Honestly, no idea yet lol
@@TheEmpyreanSpeaks Hi there. I'm a fan of the House of the Dragon and Game of thrones series or asoiaf universe and I find your asoiaf "what if" videos. While watching this one and the "What If The Strong Boys Were Actually Laenor's Trueborn Sons?", I wondered if you could possibly do a "what if" there is an alternate game of thrones timeline where dragons never went extinct after Rhaenyra and Alicent's time(Whether it be Aegon the III or whoever becomes the latest heir after Rhaenyra, Baelon or Aegon II)? If dragon babies/chicks never got sick or never been kept captive or poisoned by anyone, allowing them to grow and be healthy until the Night king makes his move to grow his army. Who would ride them? And as far as I know, House Velaryon still exists during the events of game of thrones in the books but was never casted or shown compared to House of the Dragon. If you find this interesting, please tell me what you think. Thank you.🐲
I don’t think Rheanyra would have attacked or planned on usurping her brother from her mother. Rheanyra isn’t that vindictive especially having a sibling her mother passed away giving birth to. That sexist deal
Targaryens would keep his numbers high, many blond children, many dragons.
When the ice dudes showed up, the targaryens and his dragons would go beyond the wall and burn them all
If Baelon had lived there would be no succession crisis. As much as it hurts my heart to say this Rhaenyra wouldn’t be named heir. She would be passed over in favor of Baelon. Considering the fact he lives he would be heir and There would be no greens unless Otto continues to scheme and tries to have him killed off. But if Baelon lived I highly doubt there’s a dance since Rhaenyra loves Baelon as he is the last remaining son of Aemma her full blood brother. She would help him and lead him they would possibly wed him to Nyra (In the books they’re only 9 years apart) or possibly Otto would try to marry one of his grandchildren to him or he could possibly marry into the Dornish royal family finally bringing Dorne into the 7 kingdoms.
Perhaps Viserys would've actually given his child attention in this case
I love this type of content. I subbed ❤
What if that pig killed rhaneyra in ep 4
Dude that was awesome can’t wait for part 2
I love your house of the dragons videos no going to lie
I love speculation videos like this 😊
this was great!!
What if Viserys married Rhaenys?
That's a thought i had. Especially since Aemon had only Rhaenys and seemingly did not even try to have another child. So why not bridge the 2 branches together to ensure the bloodline continues amicably.
@@philippeblais8594 Rhaenys was 3 years older then Viserys and already married at 16. She married lord Corlys, a decision she made herself and Jaehaerys allowed it. So there could have been a plan to have Viserys and Rhaenys marry each other, but Rhaenys wanted to marry Corlys and Jaehaerys wouldn't have wanted to offend neither her or house Velaryon.
Or it could have been that Jaehaerys never had any intention to let a woman rule (possibly out of fear that allowing women to succede would jeapardize his own claim as he had taken the throne over the daughter of his elder brother). So if female claims are irrelevant then there is no urgent need to unite the claims of the two branches, especially as this would (possibly) require spurning the greatest lord in all the realm. This theory is certainly supported by his actions first passing Rhaenys over for Baelon and then for Viserys.
But honestly I do feel like it is an oversight on George's part that he never addressed this in F&B. But these are my best speculations.
@@tuplat5107 I know canonically Rhaenys married Corlys. And of her own choice. I'm simply bringing up a what if scenario. And a thought as to why Rhaenys was the only child born to Prince Aemon and lady Jocelyn.
At this point Rhaenyra was aware she was not the heir and eventually would have a brother (or sister) in the books Viserys and Aemma adore her.. i think Rhae would have been THE mother figure for Baelon… and maybe Viserys never get married again as he wanted or Laens without the pressure to breed children right away…
The empyrean speaks you should do a what if viserys 1st and daemons younger brother aegon was still alive video
I actually thought this possibility ages ago and this is not how I imagined it I actually imagine balon and Ryanair marrying an Emma surviving.
Theses are great videos keep them coming and go back to game of thrones also
with Rhaenyra moved that aside, is more likely than she become more disobidian with his father about married Laenor, she probable ends running away and marring Daemon
Maybe, what if Daemon became the hand of the King.
Everyone survives
Vaegon son of Jaeharys lives.
I think the brutality of Viserys' choice is really hammered home after she told him "no more kids after this one."
What if aegon or young griff hatched a Dragon
There’s another possibility though. What if Baelon doesn’t choose Helaena but Baela or Rhaena?
How about making What if Ema survived?
What if Lucerys killed Aemond at Driftmark
You should do a what if Ygritte lived?
Ygritte was a wildling with no political pull or true importance in the show. Nothing would change.
Otto blindly believed Rhaenyra would murder her siblings just to remain on the iron throne something that she never would have done if Lucarys wasn’t killed. So this is technically Aemond’s fault.
Well Luc wouldn’t have died if he didn’t take out Aemond’s eye.
At minute 11 you say that Jaehaerys out lived all his children and that’s not true. I believe Vaegon, the child he sent to the Citadel out lived him. I don’t know if they ever say when Vaegon died but it was his idea for the Great Council when he declined the throne after Baelon’s death.
Very cool.
You made a great video❤️
I just subscribed!
Why wouldn't Harwin Strong not be at driftmark? He could still be named Rhaenyra's protector and if so would still go with her to driftmark.
Because it wouldn’t make any sense. Harwin Strong wasn’t just some random knight in King’s Landing. He’s the commander of the city watch which is meant to look after the city and keep it in check. It would be one thing for him to be named her protector while she was in the city, he could still preform his duties that way, but with her going to Driftmark there’s absolutely no reason for the commander of the city watch and heir of Harrenhall to follow her. Not to mention because she’s going to be Lady of Driftmark Rhaenyra most likely won’t even have a sworn protector. She’s just a princess not the heir in this timeline. House Velaryon will most likely be entrusted with keeping her safe. Rhaenys may work as some proof of that. Rhaenys is still of royal blood and yet you don’t see a knight tagging along with her everywhere. She’s not the responsibility of the royal family because she’s not a ruler or an heir and now she technically belongs to a different house altogether despite her name being Targaryen. This will be the same case with Rhaenyra, she’s a Velaryon through marriage now so they’ll be the ones protecting her.
If daemon was still exiled, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been in a brothel…as it was daemon who took her there on the show.
Why wouldn't Break bones be the kids dad? He still would have had to save her when the riot that Cole would have still been alive to start happened. He still would have been her sworn hand. Laenor still wouldn't have been able to get his parts to work with her since STILL would have been gay.
Because none of that stuff would have happened to begin with
Because she would be on Driftmark not in Kingslanding
What if daemon was made heir instead of viserys the first born son
What if Baelon still dies but Aema lives?
He should've had daemon an Rhaenyra betrothed
So everything is the dead baby's fault, got it
FINALLY
Why no one talks about dragons. All dragons died in dance of the dragons. No dance=dragons live=robert baratheon doesn't win his rebelion.
No one would leave the king to care for a baby by himself. The baby would be assigned a wet nurse and servants to care for him. Come on now.
Let's be honest if he lived Viserys wouldn't have remarried
He called a council because he was too sexist to hand it off to the obvious choice Rhaenys
Still think Otto or his older brother of Otto might have killed Baelon, still would say he has his pride. He wants his blood on the throne. Also, I think the maesters and the Hightowers do have alliances going on against house Targaryen in my opinion this time in Westeros, I'm not sure if that is still true, during the time of game of thrones.
Well if Helaena married Baelon as in this proposed AU his blood would still end up on the iron throne eventually, just his great grandson instead of his grandson. I think in this AU Otto would be content with that as his effort to have Viserys betroth Rhaenyra to Aegon shows. We know in canon Helaena can have children (two sons in fact) so the only changes would be Baelon as their father and not Aegon (which is good for both Helaena and the kids because that means no reason for blood and cheese and they actually get to grow up). Ironically this Au is much better for Otto than actual canon as it means his grandchildren and great-grandchildren get to survive and thrive. AND unlike canon we presume Aegon, Aemond and Daeron all live so even if anything were to happen to Baelon, Jahaeris and Maelor, there's still Otto's three grandsons so either way his bloodline is on the iron throne.
Perhaps but I'm not sure, still the hightowers and the maesters are up to something, killing the dragons, and ending magic, also their attempts to make the more andal.
I think later on Otto would propose that Baelon marry Alicent and the realm would be super secure
the truth is even the son of alicent become the king and no one in the family contested about it, no great damage to the family would happen, even he becomes a bad king, there a lot of bad kings but never been as destructive what happen in the dance of the dragon. that's the mistake, naming a girl an heir to the throne.
Nah the mistake was Hightowers being greedy.
If Otto did not terrorized Alicent about Rhaenyra and if Aegon never agreed with being King no one could do nothing about it.
I doubt Rhaenyra would kill her brothers, she never cared about it(killing them) it was mora an Otto thing, because he was the one who wanted her killed, so his blood would be safe.
It would be extemely hard for a war to happen if Aegon was on Rhaenyra side. Even if Aemond wanted to fight(because Otto convinced him or because he hates Rhaenyra kids) it would not be the same thing.
Being a girl is not the problem, Otto greed was, the war happened because of him and his desire to see his blood on throne.
Being male means no shit too if someone is greedy and want the throne.
Maegor is an exemple. He wanted be king or have the power to deal against the people who were rebeling. Aenys was a shitty one, when he died Maegor went for the throne.
Aegon was convinced to fight for it, it was really stupid but he did and died.
Aegon IV made a shit ton of bastards and letimized them. Even them some people wanted the Blackfyres on throne. Many people wanted bastards on the throne.
All the war between Targaryens and Blackfyres were because this. All fighting for the throne were male.
They just did not had dragons because they died before this, but if they had it would just be like the Dance all over again.
Rhaenyra being a girl was the excuse Otto used to try to put Aegon on the throne.
I always pictured Baelon having a personality similar to his namesake, albeit, with a cloud of guilt over how he came into the world. Maybe he blamed himself a bit over Queen Aemma's death. I also wonder if he and Daemon had any sort of relationship. I would like to think he would have had a good one with Rhaenyra, maybe she would tell him that Aemma's death wasn't his fault. As for his dragon, I could see his egg actually hatching into Sunfyre.
Seems to be a common theme that GRRM likes to twist though. A few good Aegon's and a few terrible ones. Similar situations with Aemon and Daemon. But mostly Aegon, there were the great Kings like Egg and Aegon the Conqueor, and some bad, bad ones.
Are you saying it was “parental pressure” that’s caused Aegon to be a RAPIST?
I feel like Daemon had something to do with the boy's death. I also suspect he poisoned Viserys
I like this timeline for Crispin 😈
Absolutely celebrating the "Criston K*lls H*mself" timeline
Same
Simple viserys would’ve married rhaenyera and baelon instead of wedding her to laenor it would’ve solved so much and kept the power in the family and not bring outsiders.
In the book? Maybe, but propably not. Rhaenyra is 8 when Baelon and Aemma die, and wife being 8 years older then her husband is pretty much a deal breaker. Especially with a marriage that doesn't add anything to the crown (no lands or alliances etc.).
And in the show? Just no. Rhaenyra is 14 when Baelon is born. The same problem as in the book but 75% worse.
@tuplat5107 not to mention, in this time period, a woman's childbearing years were few (30s were considered middle-aged). So, if Rhaenyra were to wait until Baelon was of age, in the people of Westeros' opinions, her childbearing years (her late teens and early 20s) would be behind her. And Viserys would want to avoid that if he wants more members of the House of the Dragon.
The greens would have that baby killed somehow.
Alcient and otto should have taken out after aegon was born