Azor Ahai the Bad Guy (Why Jon Won't Kill Dany)
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2020
- The Azor Ahai myth is moral relativism test for the reader - one which Dave and Dan failed. See why a deeper look at this all-important legend dictates that George R. R. Martin is not steering his books towards a similar ending.
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How Geralt of Rivia once said - "Lesser evil, greater evil, mid evil. Evil is evil. And if I have to choose between one of the evils... than I'd prefer not to choose at all."
I don't agree. Life isn't like that. Sometimes you have to do a little bad to achieve something good.
Well, but that's not what Sapkowski tells you in his tale, though.
Actually, in the exact same short story, he shows that not choosing is also a choice with severe consequences. Renfri would have killed innocents in the town square if Geralt wouldn't have stopped her.
I think Sapkowskis message is: You *have* to make choices. Even though they will sometimes haunt you for the rest of your live.
It shows even more clearly in the fact that Geralt as a Witcher is supposed to *not meddle in other people's affairs* , and still he is *constantly* intervening, and mostly for the better.
PS: Even GRRM isn't completely condemning "evil" acts as non-redeemable. Even his most "good" and "honorable" characters kill regularly "for the greater good" (Ned Stark, Jon Snow, Dany Targaryen).
I think he just sets certain boundaries, like *killing the people you love* .
thx 4 coming 2 my ted talk
@@SariusxX And killing both might have saved a lot too, or killing him earlyer. Stregobore created Renfri, he chose his own demon
Not choosing is still a choice. Most of the time all we have are bad options and we have to make do with the least harm.
@@SariusxX That's not exactly right either. In that story, Geralt chooses "the lesser evil" by killing Renfri's men, but he learns afterward that Stregobor would never have let Renfri into the tower, no matter how many people she killed. Renfri implies her plan failed before she even attempted it and thus she wouldn't have killed the townspeople. But because Geralt chose the lesser evil, violence ended up happening anyway. The story then ends with Geralt getting stoned.
The story's moral is quite clear. Choosing an evil, no matter the severity, will have horrible consequences. People should not choose lesser evils. However, Geralt constantly and consistently chooses "lesser evils" despite his maxim. Sapkowski seems to be saying that people _shouldn't_ choose lesser evils, but they will regardless, and that's part of being human.
“and there he stood, azor ahai reborn. His tracksuit glowing and dancing in the wind”
You're not the hero we want, you're the hero we *need.*
awsome
Can somebody please make a portrait of this in the style of the artwork he featured on this episode??
Glorious.
How tragically poetic will it be if Melisandre does sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon? When Stannis said "what is the life of one bastard boy against an entire kingdom" and Davos replies "everything", I feel so much worry for Shireen because of George's penchant for mirroring things and this just feels like subtle foreshadowing of Melisandre sacrificing "the kingdom" (Shireen, the heir) for a "bastard boy" (Jon). Davos would be heartbroken.
Theory is that it's going to be Shireen's mother that sacrifice her, not Melisandre She not going to be Innocent of it, but she was not the one who suggested it in the book version.
Except I think Stannis will agree to it but fr himself and not for Jon.
wow, i never thought about this, thank you
@@nickbrough8335 Stannis is near Winterfell not at the Wall. In books he left Shireen at the Wall.
@@sophiawilson8696 Yes. Do you think either would sacrifice Shireen without Stannis' tacit approval ? He left Knights with instructions to put Shireen onto the Iron Thrown if he died didn't he ?
As for the violence done to Danny's body at the end of S8, Lindsay Ellis makes an even greater point bringing up that this was a woman who was sexually victimized basically her entire life until Meereen and moved past her traumas just to be MURDERED at the hands of the man she loved and trusted.
Maximum cringe when you look at it this way.
Absolutely and her analysis is terrific.
Yeah, letting her people because she was a victim before, seams right to me . . . She had the best intentions, she did the worst thing betraying everything she wanted to be, if it was sage I wanted her in a place she would find peace huddled away from the worlds evil, nur with her fucking dragons and people who would follow her, she would be way to dangerous for safe keeping . . . I feel terrible for her, but it was the best solution. You can not talk someone down as impulsive as a dragon that will just burn you, when you anger them . . . Who ever got the stupid idea a dragon would make a good ruler . . . They are royal for there power, but they rule with fear and tyrany. . . Realy how do people not catch up on that
That doesn't excuse any of her behavior and choices. If she does continue down a path of fire and blood, righteous justice that she will break the wheel of "her" knew world which just sounds like her knew wheel, there will not be a happy Dany/Jon on the throne ruling together ending. That was never the ending. As Martin said if you think this is a fairytale you haven't been paying attention.
Martin never said "if you think this is a fairytale you haven't been paying attention".
@@orphanedhanyou LMAO, found the Benioff apologist.
We honestly have very little reason to think Azor Ahai is a good guy. We're told he's a hero by Melisandre, a very unreliable source, and a good deal of Davos's story is about preventing the death of Nissa Nissa to save Stannis's soul. And the perils of religious fanaticism are a big theme of the story.
According to the Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon book, GRRM told D&D about "Stannis's decision to burn his daughter".
I'm sure he won't do it because of a little snow. The books suggest, that he'll do it to fight the Others, because he "must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark", because Melisandre convinced him that he is Azor Ahai reborn, and that's what Azor Ahai does.
I think that will just reinforce the point you made in this video. That the book won't end with Jon killing Dany and portraying it as a necessary evil, because sacrificing innocents is wrong, heroes don't do that, and Azor Ahai was not really a hero.
I was always hoping, that Jon would not have to stab Dany in order to win against the WW. That's such a barbaric thing to do. And in the show he didn't do it to win against the WW. But Dany turning into a second endgame villain to justify stabbing her wasn't any better. And I hated the message "beware of people who help others - they are the real villains" that this turn promoted.
However, Dany has actually killed her husband (though it was a mercy killing) and out of the funeral pyre rose her dragons (her "flaming swords"). So in a way, she has already fulfilled this part of the prophesy without being a cold blooded murderer. This would make Khal Drogo Nissa Nissa.
Indeed, and Mirri Maz Dur was on the pyre too. That's the closest Dany has come to the "Azor Ahai heroic ideal," and really she was more desperate and crazed than power hungry at the that moment. Since then, we've seen only the self sacrifice ideal from her, in the books at least
Maybe dany could be the scouring of the shire
@@DavidLightbringer I actually had a theory that the GEOTD was stagnating when AA betrayed the Amethyst Empress. If you recall correctly that the weirwood paste and the shade of the evening are of similar substances. Both came from trees. And the gifts they grant mirror the forbidden trees of the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Eternal Life. According to the Bible man ate from the tree of knowledge and their lifespan was shortened. If man had eaten from the tree of eternal life first, stagnation would have followed.
What if this was mirrored in the GEOTD having a specific practice of gifting chosen people with the Shade of Evening. These people become the rulers of their lands, and as a result stagnation slowly followed where they ruled. This would of course have disastrous consequences for the GEOTD. Especially when people became complacent and decadent.
So if The Bloodstone Emperor has had enough of this, maybe he could had betrayed the Empress to stop this decline and it backfired? Thus the experiments to create hybrids to repair his mistakes?
This version, of course doesn't acknowledge your views but in this vein I was inspired by Dune and Leto II Atreides's Golden Path, in which evil actions were carried out to save humanity, with the final gambit being an scattering of people into unexplored terrain to push them further away from practices that potentially were ruinous.
Beware of people that help others isn't the moral its that even good people can be corrupted and lost. Pain, revenge, using "righteousness" as a defense for killing is why the slippery slope Dany is on is intrugiung and this outcome an actual possibility.
YES, this ^^^^^^. I'm a big Dany fan, but I do believe GRRM has positioned her as Azor Ahai and the central villain of the story. He's inverted a couple of things, using Drogo as Nissa Nissa, and sacrificing MMD out of revenge for Drogo. We felt for Dany at the time, but what she did was not right. What MMD did wasn't exactly right either, but you don't fix one wrong with another. Both women acted upon each other out of revenge and pain, and it led to the birth of the dragons (the flaming sword).
@Lucifer Means Lightbringer Another aspect to think about with the AA story is maybe GRRM isn't giving us the "right" answer in regards to the moral question: is one life worth sacrificing for the many? Davos has his answer, and we as modern people agree it's wrong to kill. But think of this in reality and ask yourself again. If we truly were in a position where all of humanity could be saved by sacrificing one person, would you allow it? It's not so simple. We make it simple because we're armchair experts, sitting in front of computers. But what if it was real? What if Dany *not* killing MMD meant no dragons, and no defense against the walkers? There's also those who believe MMD is the hero of the story for killing Dany's baby before he could trample cities to dust. One life...against all... It is a difficult quandry.
The more I think about it though, the more I am convinced Dany IS AA, she IS the central villain, and Jon WILL kill her. Breaks my heart, but I understand why he will have to. If this wasn't the case, GRRM wouldn't have had Dany kill MMD out of vengeance. That was the first clue. I believe the flaming sword, the dragons, they all really represent emotion overrunning the mind. When people's emotions errupt, it can lead to good things, but gone too long and it equals destruction. I'm so sad for Dany, but that's what Martin's going for, I believe...
"Not stabbing one-another". Now there's quality relationship-advice.
Hey...the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor could be married as well, practising incest like Valyrians. This also fits in where the Great Empire of the Dawn was a precursor of the Dragonlords. And of course then they would be exactly like Azor and Nissa and Nissa
I've always wondered if the purple eyes and white hair that run in houses like the Targaryens and Dayne's we're because these houses are actually direct descendants of the Amethyst Empress. If she and the Bloodstone Emperor were married they could have produced children. Could the madness that runs in Targaryens also be linked to the Bloodstone Emperor?
@@jesso.4971 And it could also be a result of intergenerational trauma. Studies has linked incest with sexual abuse and familial dysfunction. What if the Gemstone dynasty of the GEOTD was actually one big screwed up family? It would explain why even now the Targaryens practice it, it's a remnant of an abusive familial structure.
I've always assumed they were.
@@elyseenger2646I think this holds a lot of water. Targ Incest is metaphorically and literally connected to Targ arrogance, interpersonal abuse and trauma, and a general superiority complex. Imagine how messed up the god-kings and dragon rulers of the Great Empire would be like...
Crackin' the moon is bad m'kay? Don't crack the moon.
YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR
Lol,love it ,South Park : Just gotta sing with ya ,lol:
"Don't crack the moon,it aint that cool ,m'kay..? 🎶Crackin'the moon is very bad ,many is gonna be really sad ,so don't crack the moon ,it aint that cool ,m'kay? 🎶
I've been trying to say this forever.
There's no way GRRM would write a story that involves sacrificing humans, women or not, to "save" other humans.
Facts
Why not? The point isn't that it's acceptable or not it's that the characters think it's necessary.
@@orphanedhanyou because GRRM would NEVER write a story where the way to "save the world" means innocent people need to die.
It goes against EVERYTHING he believes.
Honestly, Davos is the closest to holding the personal beliefs that GRRM has.
Davos saved the "bastard boy" even though it meant his life. He knew it was going to cost him everything, and ONLY was saved because of a letter.. and he didn't even know if it would actually save him, and he didn't care. Just like Davos says when asked what does one bastard boys life mean.. and he replies "Everything."
And he also says this:
"And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.”
This how how GRRM has always felt. So the idea that innocent people need to be killed in order for the world to survive goes against every belief he has, and making a story be where that's how what the GOOD GUYS have to do in order to "win the day" just isn't him.
I think GRRM is trying to show, with this story, how dangerous prophecy can be and that dying while protecting people shows a good heart and is more honorable than someone killing innocent kids to save other people.
But.. that's my opinion.
This story will never get finished, so we can literally argue about it till the end of time. 🤷♂️
Azor Ahai: "Let me kill my wife to forge a sword in order to stop the Long Night."
*kills wife, forges sword, **_causes_** the Long Night in the process*
Azor Ahai: "...I'm still the hero, right?"
Azor Ahai: "...are we the baddies, now..?"
@@Cissablack708 "Hanzor? Are we the baddies?"
I really appreciate the points you made about violence as a solution and violence against women in particular being antithetical to the story as a whole; it was seriously depressing having to point that out to people over and over after the episode aired, particularly with what was going on in our political and social landscape at the time. For someone without much social currency it can feel like shouting into the void, but anytime I see someone with a platform not shirking from making these kinds of points (especially, in the case of this topic, a male) it makes my day a little brighter and more hopeful
Right on Alicia, I try to do my part to spread light when I can. It took effort to keep the tone of this light and easy, because I feel very strongly about this and could easily just just starting haranging people, lol.
@@DavidLightbringer The hippie references and the horns definitely help keep things upbeat!
I always thought it was odd that people truly believe that Danny's ultimate purpose in the narrative is to murdered by jon so he could be the hero SMH.
I don't necessarily agree that she was an innocent person who was murdered considering she was a tyrant running a cult of personality who fully intended to kill the guy who threatened her position, but I agree that the way it happened was very poorly thought out without regards to the moral implications of having to kill someone to save the day in an epic fantasy story.
@@Tyler_W cult??
Essentially, in the show version Nissa Nissa is the bad guy. Which, well...
In Soviet Russia, eighth-grade book reports are for themes
LoL
Thank you for addressing this! Being in the Jon and Daenerys fandoms, I've heard Azhor Ahai and Nissa Nissa over and over again, and something about it while "so tragically Shakespearean", rubbed me the wrong way. The implications of it seemed so off in terms of it supposedly being the right, heroic thing to do. So, I love your take on this!
Hate it when people say there is lots of evidence of Dany going crazy or being tyrannical as IF
In the books, i think Aegon is going to wind up on the throne, so when she gets to westeros she is going to find her nephew on the throne and she wont be able to deal with it.
I mean, I'm definitely on the Danny's an awesome compassionate character side, but I've moved away from thinking she's holy righteous and pure philosophically. Especially when she thinks she's right, u better watch out. Lucky she's been right Allot.
Actually trauma does have a lot to do with mental illness. Studies at the Kaiser Permanente has linked a total of 10 Adverse Childhood Experiences to an increased chances of obesity, chronic health issues, substance use disorders and yes, mental health issues. Dany has an extremely high score. Physical, emotional and sexual abuse- +3. Mentally ill family member-+2 (brother and father), Homelessness- +1, Mother a domestic violence victim- +1. No wonder her mental collapse in the end of GOT was believeable in the context that her lack of resilience led to toxic coping methods. Psychologically both in the books and show, she is brittle mentally, and vulnerable to snapping if the conditions are right.
Elyse Enger yes it seems very likely she will snap, and I personally think she will, but NOT over something as stupid as what they conjures for season eight.
@@siljapeters2836 is losing two dragons, your oldest advisor, your best friend, and finding out your lover is your nephew and he doesn't seem able to deal with that right now stupid reasons?
Thank you for providing the information that D&D basically invented the Jon stabbing Dany to save the realm. Beause you know, I think sometimes those showrunners forget how much the viewers look up to these characters, basically see them as real people and relate to them. It's amazing that you have proof that predicts that a good person doesn't need to turn into a murderer to save the realm.
well put. But yeah it still needs to be said. I did the 90. min Who is the Real Dany video after this one just to drive all the nails home.
@@DavidLightbringer So many people were up in arms (and rightly so) about how Dany got completely screwed over by S8 that they didn't notice that "Jon stabbing Dany" is actually a ruination of Jon's character and not Dany's. Because, despite his threats made against Gilly and Tormund in aDwD, Jon has never struck me as someone who would engage in blood sacrifice. In fact, he is openly disdainful of the notion as exemplified by his scorn for Melisandre. Of course, he can be cold and calculating when the situation demands it. Rather more so than Dany tbh. But he is no slayer of innocents. And slaying his beloved? No, that he would never do, no matter the circumstances.
Man, didnt expect the Azor Ahai one will come out this fast, I am literally now watching the stream from yesterday. Cheers LmL, whenever you are travelling in Eastern Europe, hit me up, you're staying at my place and the smoke is on me too
At a Tsar's place, no less
Oi, mate, you from Bulgaria?
This guys gonna get hostel’d
This discussion reminds me of when Xharo (spelling uncertain) tells Dany that slavery is ok because there can’t be anything good in the world without somebody being exploited...
great analysis... this channel has really helped me notice levels of thematic unity in asoiaf
Right on! I feel like I’ve come a long with that kind of analysis, I stated off just thinking about symbols and the LN but eventually learned some of the other lit analysis basics :)
I always found it curious that AA and BE myths were so similar yet so differently viewed morally. Thank you for putting it into theory!! Assuming that they are the same story, the different tries of making the sword in the AA myth could represent different kinds of magic the BE used to try and achieve his goals. Tempering in water is the "regular" way, the lions heart is blood magic, and Nissa Nissa aka the Amethyst Empress is a sacrifice of Queen's blood. Like stated in the books "there is power in a king's blood", especially in that of a godqueen. Maybe too much power and BE's plan worked too well and in a way backfired. That's why Asshai looks like the result of some magical fallout
That was my thought too. I also theorized that at the time this occurred the GEOTD was dying because it had become stagnant because of the god-rulers.
I've been so hurt by the destruction of my favorite characters on-screen that I've barely been able to stomach anything about ASOIAF. Your video popped up in my feed and I almost added it to "watch later" and thought, know what? No. I don't want to put off watching my favorite GoT UA-camrs just because S8 was bad. LML, you're one of my favorite ASOIAF theorists and I *needed* to hear you remind me why that on-screen ending was total horseshit. I sort of think Azor Ahai is a retelling of the Bloodstone Emperor tale by the meteorite cultists who followed him, bastardized over generations. Either way? As someone who is so heavily invested not just in the characters, but in having payoff to the many moral quandaries and the countless mysteries all throughout Planetos, I just want to thank you for videos like this that still give me hope in my favorite series. ♥
Love this. I hope you're right. Apparently their original plan was to blow everything up with wildfire, but still have Jon kill Dany, which is still awful.
I wonder if we're not being too easy on GRRM tho, since it's so NOT fanservice... he could've said they decided to go on another direction with the show, since the books aren't done, instead of going on and on about it being similar. I kinda get HOW a really good writer could make this ending work, even if it's an outdated and kinda sexist deviation of the lost princess trope, but I still hate it. Any Latin American who grew up watching telenovelas knows that the 'crazy evil obsessed woman' is THE oldest, most exhausted trope there is to kill off a female character that the writer doesn't really know to handle anymore. She either self destructs or is 'saved' by being put down by her lover. Huh.
Well, I’ll say this. If George does it, I will not spare him any criticism.
Awesome vid, LML. I think in the books we find out that both The Starks and The Targaryens of old will be guilty of losing their humanity to achieve their wonders (sacrifice, blood magic, etc) and that will change the way we view their ancestors.
I've tried for years to get my thoughts about the Starks being buried in crypts and hiding this fact from the children/"old gods" and I'm just not as articulate as I want to be. It'd be a good video topic though.
When you havnt finished the live stream but LmL uploads another video :)
Moon meteor overdose
One thing I wished that would have happened in the show was that when Drogon took Dany they would go to Valyria and the ending shot was her eyes opening but with red stars glowing eyes instead of blue stars...maybe in the books the white walker/ dragon people cycle keeps happening is bc AA or the PTWP keeps stabbing his wife’s heart instead of giving his own or not sacrificing anyone maybe Jon will sacrifice his own life instead of Dany’s
fuckboy jon is not the sort of person who sacrificing their own life to save another ones. he is all about killing someone.
@@anne-kathrinhohlig1466 Whaaaaaaa? 🧐
First of all I wanted to thank you for being a ray of light at a time when I thought I was absolutely wrong about Daenerys ( I had been away from the fandom since season four and when I came back almost everybody assured that Daenerys was going to go crazy and be the villain of the saga)
And for me she's always been the heroine of the story. Then I "found" you, and I was like, well at least I'm not alone in this. Ha ha ha
so thanks again!
and here's my question... If Azor Ahai is a bad guy, are the red priests wrong or are they bad guys too?
They are misled. They want a summer without end, that's what they prophesy - but that's actually bad too. We need the cycle of the seasons!!
Yeah whoever said that she was always going crazy is wrong because I watched all the former inside episodes and they (D&D) always said that Daenerys WASN'T a mad Targaryen, and I'm not just talking about the earlier seasons when they said that they said it in the later seasons too like in seasons 6 and 7 the "inside episodes", which proves the show runners didn't have the Mad Queen Dany story line planned from the beginning they just switched roles between Cersei and Daenerys for season 8 just to be unpredictable.
You may want to watch the video "Relic Lines that Daenerys Didn't Burn King's Landing in the Original Season 8 Filming Script?" on you tube :)
@@sydnitheromantictaylor112 who really would describe her as mad? Did she lose her mind literally? Have a genetic mental issue? Her being called the mad queen by other characters or watchers doesn't make her that. Again it all goes back to Martin saying it doesn't matter if the prophecy is real or not it's how people REACT or don't react. Dany doesn't have to be literally mad to make the horrible choices and justifications she did in season 8. She's just a flawed person. Her savior complex aspect and righteous justice was always flawed.
This "Dany is a flawed person" a very annoying straw man. One of the great things about the books is that the story and the characters feel real, the characters are grey, complex, every single character has flaws. Daenerys has flaws too, she is a good-hearted person with a dragon's temper, she is always trying to balance these two things, this is her "human heart in conflict with itself" - the only thing Martin says is worth writing about. But some people try to make it seem like, it made sense when she slaughtered an entire city - who just surrendered - for no reason, because "she's a flawed person".
And D&D did make Dany mad in the last 2 episodes. She was delusional in the end, she really thought, that she liberated the people she just murdered, she said everyone else "they don't get to choose". She wasn't like this before.
AA: I'm the baaaaddd gguuuyyyy
LML: DUH
I read up about Elric. The description of Elric is almost identical to Bloodraven.
Elric is an Albino. He has striking Red Eyes, he's a sorcerer of great repute and was hated by his own people. He is also depicted seated on his own throne. He is also in conflict with Yyrkoon, his cousin, who hates him and wants the throne for himself. Yyrkoon's sister Cymoril is in love with Elric, but Yyrkoon covets her and wants her for his wife.
This sounds A LOT like the story of Bloodraven, Bittersteel and Sheira Seastar. So is Bloodraven supposed to be an "Azor Ahai" archetype as well?
Yes, absolutely. Consider Beric’s symbolism. He’s showing Azor Ahai (flaming sword, undead, fire magic) crossed with Bloodraven (one red eye, sitting in weirwood root nest in weirwood cave, hanging symbolism, scarecrow epithet, black cloak, on and on). This was my first clue that Azor Ahai somehow gets inside the weirwoods. Bloodraven is showing us that part of Azor Ahai, to some extent.
As for the Elric stuff, it also pertains to Jon Snow, and the OG Azor Ahai I think. Recall that another local name for Azor Ahai was “Eldric Shadowchaser,” while another was “Yrkoon the Hero”
@@DavidLightbringer Very Interesting! Your theories make a lot of narrative sense. Parallels to mythical archetypes surely help explain the motivations of some characters.
Also, I've replied to your video on the "Origin of the Others - Night's Queen". Do check that out! 🙂👍
I was writing a whole comment about how Jon is Nissa Nissa and Dany is Azor Ahai and then you beat me to it so instead ill just say: Good Job Luci. You think of everything.
There's a line that's been burned in my brain when Maester Aemon touches Stannis' sword
"The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamor ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness."
That's sort of why I didn't like Stannis, he was too willing to "sacrifice" people, and why I stopped liking Jon Snow after the finale (Yes, I know that book Jon and show Jon are different people but still)
Too willing? You talking about book or Show Stannis? Because Boook stannis Only kills people typically for treason and allows them to be burned
@@wisdommanari6701
Didn't he want to burn his nephew because the hot redhead told him it would give him dragons? Davos had to literally steal the kid and send him away to stop him.
This guy is BRILLIANT. LmL is correct that AA is a moral relativism test. I have always felt that Nissa Nissa was a Christ-ish figure. (i.e. the sacred heart imagery...) However it never made enough sense because Nissa Nissa was not God-in-the-flesh, therefore her death (even though she was an innocent) could not justify a “sin offering” to turn back the effects of the Long Night and return light to the world. Another major issue is that AA didn’t manage to restore the seasons to their rightful course...
I watched this discussion because I had realized there were more similarities than differences between AA and BE. I had concluded they must be the same person, because when I tallied up the inconsistencies, ASoIAF truly started to lose coherence. It’s cool that I’m not alone in this thought. The literary parallels discussed as evidence in this video are spot-on and much appreciated!!!
Lastly, I think LmL is absolutely correct that GRRM is saying “giving up your humanity to win is not just.” Indeed, evil is evil and has no fellowship with the light. Martin uses a far more convoluted moral landscape than Tolkien ever did to present the SAME discernment of good and evil. It can be a headache or a brain-tickler, depending. :)
Totally agree, great comments :)
Whenever I'm confronted with a murdering innocents type moral dilemma, I always stop to consider my WWDD bracelet
D&D never understood the source material and had no idea where to take the series or how to end it once they surpassed the books.
They skip materials not pass it Stannis and others are still alive.
I’d argue that danys descent into madness was well foreshadowed. Watched the series again, the creators did a very good job alluding to her being another insane Targaryen. Even in the show, Maester Aemon said the mad kind was a “sweet boy” before he became king.
Ah yes dragon hittler
That doesnt make sense because jews or Westeros version of the jews weren't there and taking this to even further person in question did killed less people than Mao or Stalin.
@@normaaliihminen722 bruh it was a joke
@@chickenusgoddus464 I’m fully aware of that. It was dull one.
Thank you for pointing all that out, this is such a relief!! I'm like sitting here watching dozens and dozens of people just casually saying like "oh yeah, and then the hero _stabbed his wife to death_ to save the world" and then just move on to the next point as if it is nothing at all. But I'm always like "hold up, this is kinda crappy, isn't it?" Great video, man! Keep it up!
Our Most Dark Lord, Euron Greyjoy, is Azar Ahai reborn! He shall bring the Wall down, and finally we shall have eternal peace!
What this is actually a good point I haven’t heard before. Euron does blood sacrifice, so why shouldn’t he be Azor Agai reborn?😂
It would be to black-and-white for George to give us one thing that is either good or evil, an act on itself doesn't need to be or can be either evil or good. It is the intention behind the act determines that. You can murder someone in self-defense. Someone tries to rape you and you kill them in defense, does that make you a bad person? What if someone wants you to help them with euthanasia? What if your wife has a risky pregnancy and asks you if it comes to it to choose between her and your baby, you choose the baby?
How about Robin Hood? Stealing from filthy riches to help unprivileged survive?
In the same way, it is not the same to sacrifice your sister-wife to take over her throne and for your wife to sacrifice herself as the most important to you (and hence the greatest sacrifice) to help to defeat the others, is it?
These are all the questions George wants us to ask ourselves and you just asked them
So completely agreed on Jon and Dany being self-sacrificing heroes :) Also DnD are idiots. If you haven't watched The Dragon Demands's expose on Benioff, you really should
I agree with you. I think Jon and Daeny are parallels to the Azor Ahai-Nessa Nessa story. This time instead of Blood Magick we will get Love Magick. Their Loves: romantic, for friends, for the stranger, etc. is the correct way to defeat the White Walkers. Hate in the end is cold. But we must also remember that Hate can burn hot, The religion of R'llor is a perfect example. It keeps slaves (both physical, mental and emotional) it does not seek to show its "rightness" by dialog but by conquest. You have the forms of Hate (cold always wrong and hot Love twisted) competing with Love in its correct purest form.
'Be like Davos'. Words to live by!
I have a few problems with this theory. 1.) How is it that one woman’s death is enough to bring about a moon’s destruction? Euron is perhaps the most evil person in the world and he needs a literal boatload of people to accomplish his goals. 2.) Dany, a hero as you call her, also uses blood magic by killing a woman, Mirri Maz Duur, to bring dragons to life. Is this somehow okay because it’s a woman killing a woman?
I do think he's being overly simplistic in his analysis here
LML: “Whos mother or daughter would you be willing to sac-“
Me: Mother in law.
No one
You know that's who your partner is going to turn into, right?
Real fuckin quick.. lol
sorry mil you are needed elsewhere, and no you will not be missed. Thankssosmuch!
Fantastic video as always LML. I love that instead of just saying “show bad” like a lot of youtubers, you explain why those plot points suck and offer your ideas as to how it might actually play out. Excellent points and it makes me even more excited for the books. Damnit.
great video loved how you tied it all back together! definitely changed how I looked at this part of the story! Thanks again !
#BELIKEDAVOS
I'm so happy you made this video - awesome surprise at the end of a long and hard day :) you reference this interpretation of the myth all the time in different videos so I was hoping for one specifically about it
Well, I suppose this video disabused me of the notion that Jon is a dark horse perfumed seneschal candidate. His having served as a steward and Dany smelling the sweetness emanating from the blue flower growing in the ice wall meant nothing😪.
Awesome video, as always!
Amazing video as always LML! You’re rocking the hippie Azor Ahai look
All the work you have done for the series is so unique and eye opening. You have reveled many secrets and an overall understanding of ASOIAF, but I think more than that, you have discovered a way (Georges way rather) that each characters arc is laid out. And now that the story makes more sense we can guess at the many paths of the future ( when expectations are subverted it will be because their are so many options). INTRO!
I have said many times, primarily in Dragon Demands comment sections, that the ending is totally Dan&Dave and has nothing to do with the actual ending. I have been saying for years that their ending had more to do with what has been written on Reddit than anything in ASOIAF.
If Danny is Azor Ahai then Dany can stab Lightbringer into Jon’s heart. Since he’s already been resurrected than he can be resurrected again. side note: your knowledge and the way you lay out your theories makes you insanely attractive.
You never cease to amaze me and get my head down endless paths in every single stream.
Only half-way down the video and I’m already sold on this, lol. Great way to articulate everything! Amazing job, theory and video :)
Why thank you
this type of content of yours is so nice. I like the long streams but i just dont have the time
I try to mix it up
Great video and take as always! There is definitely something funky up with azor ahai
This is why people need to actually pay attention to the ideals, histories, and experiences of the actual author of a novel, as they often show those same ideals and/or experiences in their stories. Sadly many great books are misinterpreted by modern audiences. Wuthering Heights films too often romanticize the relationship between Heathcliff and Cathy, when in reality it was very toxic and the real romance of the story was Cathy's daughter and Heathcliff's ward, and how they learn from the previous generation's mistakes and break the cycle of violence (yet many film/TV show adaptations spend very little time on the secondary love-story). Or Lolita, which was written by a man who was purposefully writing a horror story about human evil/cruelty in response to the horrors of WWI and WWII - it's not a love story, despite modern reprintings of the book often putting a sound bite on the cover like "one of the greatest love stories of all time" - for fucks sake it's a story about a pedophile! Or what about the romanticizing Scarlett and Rhett in Gone with the Wind - Rhett was written by Margaret Mitchell based off of her extremely abusive first husband who was nicknamed Red. Mitchell literally slept with a gun under her pillow after she left Red out of fear!
My point is that any vague details in the larger part of the story of ASoIaF can be relatively sorted out regarding morals, especially the author's morals, if you actually look at the author's history. GRRM is very much anti-war (he doesn't like it when stories glorify war, which is why he spends so much time showing the audience the real consequences and human coat of war in his books), he's a self-proclaimed hippie, he's also a straight up romantic, his favorite fairytale is Beauty and the Beast (B&tB has a lot of imagery throughout the series, between Sansa/Sandor, Arya/Gendry, and Jaime/Brienne, as well as a few others, and I never understood why these couples didn't get the attention they deserved on the show; the novels may not be catagorized as romance novels, but there are great romances throughout the story but the show ignored these in favor of "gritty realism"), he even worked on the TV show Beauty and the Beast from the 80s (the one with Ron Pearlman). Also, the shows decision to focus on Dragons and Lannisters more than the Starks and the northern myths/mysticism, when Martin straight up said that the Starks are the HEART of the ASoIaF novels, just as the Trageryans are the center of the Blood and Fir books!
Game of Thrones is the kind of show you get when you put frat boys in charge of something - Dragons, Boobs, and cunning Lannisters. There is a LOT of nuance, historical inspiration, reading between the lines, and subtle foreshadowing, and literary symbolism in the books that make them so wonderful! It was like someone asked a horny teenager to writer an 8th grade level book report of each book in the series, Dave and Dan read that book report, and then they made a TV show about it. I honestly find it hard to believe that Dave and Dan actually read the books!
I just watched The Disputed Lands' recent video on this same topic. If you haven't seen it, you definitely should. Amazing work by Amanda as always.
Dan and Dave botched the ending so much that I now doubt R+L=J. I seriously have that much mistrust in everything they presented
I have a feeling that George sabotaged them because they were giant prix.
Whenever I read about AA story it always feel weird to me like sth was off about it. This makes a lot of sense.
I haven’t read the books or watched the show, just have watched a bunch of theory videos here, but I just want to say that as I was listening to you discuss AA being the villain my mind went to Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn Trilogy and how a great evil deceived people into releasing evil onto their world under the belief that they were doing the right thing(s).
Forces of evil will twist stories to their benefit and purpose to get good people to do their biding and if people are desperate enough they will follow through on some dark things under the belief that it will turn the tide in their favor. Stannos(sp?) let his daughter be burned alive because he waaw told that he would get a certain outcome; only for men to desert and he got his butt whooped if I remember other videos correctly.
The notion that Jon kills Dany after the Long Night when both of them play the biggest part is so ridiculous 😂 D&D truly exceeds my expectations
Great video, as always!
Dood. Someone on reddit recommended you and they were right. Love alllllllll of this.
oh right on! Thank you, someone on reddit, and Lauren, new myth head! :)
What a nice voice...really nice. Thanks for this video!
Just here to say, this was another well done video! Keep it up lml :)
Love the cuts and pauses. This is a particularly quotable vid too: "Thats a hell of a redemption mark even for GRRM"
*arc not mark :)
This is a truly fascinating theory. Azor Ahai being the villain in the story of the long night would be such a plot twist.
Love your content bro ❤️
Thanks for this video 😢❤
Couldn't the moon cracking me a large astoriod that had been seen from space before it "Cracked" when it was close to earth it would have looked like a second moon in the sky because of how close the rock was.
Yes, for sure. No question. All the mythology is the same; it's just a matter of how this "second moon" came to be in the sky. I suggested it must be a smallish moon to be obliterated by a comet anyway, so we are talking about something similar either way
Nice!! Heard this was coming from last live but didn't know was coming this quick! Takin break from last of us 2 for this (4 hours and 27 min into last of us 2)
That obsidian blade is too perfect I can’t even fathom the patience needed to craft such a masterpiece.
I’d love it if Jon & Dany, after all is said & done, go off (together or separately) to Naath for a nice retirement. Odds are they will likely sacrifice themselves to save the day & take out Euron, thus leaving the necessary power vacuum for Bran to ascend the throne.
That's much better
but Jon and Dany would die if they went to Naath because of the poisonous butterflies. It would be more likely both of them leaving beyond the wall as once the long night is dealt with spring should return.
I don't see Dany doing that. Regardless of her always thinking back to the house with the red door, she also says if she looks back she is lost. Her whole focus and reason for being is now the throne. The end has negate a justification for the means and her ideals and actions have contradicted themselves because of her idea of "righteous" justice usually ends up solely on her idea of what is good. She wants to break the wheel? Only to replace it with "Her world". That's why her path is so dangerous and the season 8 ending a real possibility.
This video + yesterday's stream + a new video from the disputed lands... What a week! :)
And yes, Nissa Nissa is the one who shows us what heros are about.
So the Bloodstone Emperor's blood betrayal was also the forging of Lightbringer? Maybe Edric Shadow chaser, Neferion, Hyrkoon, and Azor Ahai were not all the same person, as the Maesters seem to think, and the details of there legends and the forging of Lightbringer and the beginning and ending of the Long Night have been confused and jumbled together, creating a monomyth that is easier to share, enjoy and/or dismiss.
LML and disputed lands videos on the same day D: is the world about to end?
For all the Jon resurrection theories, one being he's trapped in ghost, the mellisandre theory, the wight-Jon theory ... wouldn't it be lit if George doesn't bring back Jon at all... like he stays dead. That would be ultimate troll lol
i prefer jon snow deader than dead.
No I wouldn’t like that all
@@beanfrompa No one would, I guess
I think people are reading it the wrong way.
He thrust his sword into Nyssa Nyssa which ended her life, but gave him Lightbringer.
Let's look at this from a different angle. He "thrust his sword" into Nyssa Nyssa. That can be translated into him bedding her.
She lost her life during childbirth, but a child would one day be called "Lightbringer" was born.
I mean I def think my that’s one layer of the myth, for sure.
Just subscribed! I love these videos that shed light on the myths and legends of the past and the hidden lovecraft references. @lightbringer Have you ever read/watched berserk? It's a very good dark fantasy manga.
LML and his drive to create constantly new GOT videos amazes me. This is a man driven to create media! He doesn’t seem to care all that much about subs or views or even new viewers. This channel has been relatively stagnant as far as new subs are concerned for quite literally years and years. With all respect the channel has not experienced the typical growth that most channels get. It seems like it’s always been around 27k subs, but the videos keep on coming! So kudos for that!
Actually no, I was at about 15k after the end of Season 8, it was stagnant for months, and then has started growing nicely in the past 3-4 months. So FINALLY we are getting somewhere. However, if you compare the views on my videos and live-streams, I’m actually getting similar numbers to channels with 5 times the subs or more. There are a lot of channels with empty subscriber numbers because they got fat when the HBO show was hyped, while I have a smaller but loyal following, which I am very grateful for. I definitely care about the views! But it’s also true that I write and create because it’s what I love doing and making money really just enables me to do what I love, which is y’all myth and symbol and literature
I think your theory is very strong. Aside from the compelling argument you make in of itself, we already know that GRRM is so diabolically clever as to sow the world with widespread false narratives about major historical events eg. public perception of Jamie as Kingslayer, The Others as mere myth, Lyanna as kidnap victim etc etc. Gosh darn it Lightbringer, you've done it again!! Bravo
When the books are finished. I would love a reboot of the t.v. series. I could wait 30 years for that
The ending (dragon hitler character shift) would have worked if Faegon had been in the tv show. Since he decided to deploy to Dorne before her I could see him succeeding on hitting Kings Landing as she gets there. She would eliminate her competition and the people would be collateral damage. (Currently reading the last 2 books so they may reveal something else)
Talk about Euron please. He's more similar to Bloodstone Emperor
Dude, I love everything about your weirdness. That’s a huge compliment in my book, so keep up the amazing weirdness LML’
I 100% agree with you cause your explaination makes senses
THANK U♡♡♡
ILY
The azor ahai myth only makes him evil if the sword he was working on for several hundred days wasn't his penis. It does however make the lion thing a bit strange unless that idea is also metaphorical.
That’s a damn lot of masturbation lol
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
haha
Hello David aka LML. Your alias is also a moral relativism test, and this video is spot on about true heroism and morality. 😊
awww thanks, you know this video is near and dear to my heart
Just found your channel.... really enjoy , so far.... after watching a dozen or so videos, the one thing I'm sure of...D&D probably aren't on your Christmas card lists ))
hahah not so much. Just my meme list
LML, I really hope you see this because something major just clicked in my head. The "moon" that cracked open is that same pearl throne the emperor of dawn would ride on! He put the bloodstone in the pearl throne! Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa cracked it open and used the bloodstones' magic to make the first dragons(lightbringers)
Ahhh i didn't expect it to be out so soon after the livestreaaam 😍😍😍 amazing, lml! Also how do I find that intro song once you start introducing mythological astrology??
I really have to get some dop... shade of the evening when watching your stuff. (you´re awesome)
I got you for the low man lol
Could the Lightbringer forging and the cracking of the moon also be entirely unrelated? As in, everyone sees a meteor cracking the moon and then assumes that it was that guys flaming sword? Azhor Ahai then says, "Of course, t'as me! Totally!"
Love me some Azor Ahai videos!!
I saw a really cool video talking about how Dany destroying kings landing wasn't out of nowhere and shitty like most ppl say it was. like there was plenty of evidence in every prior season that she was willing to do so. she threatened almost every ruler and politician she met with fire and blood and did burn multiple villages and buildings throughout her journey. she even planned to burn the red keep itself at one point until she was advised not to. she also lost every person she loved or who truly loved her in rapid succession and was scared Jon would usurp her claim to the throne, and that pushed the anger and Targaryen nature in her to finally come out full force. I dont like how they ended her character arc and write her death but her final actions were believable and back up the theory that she is the bad guy azor ahai counterpart. she is the nights king bad and Jon is the last hero good. she sacrificed both her husband and unborn son and then came her dragons, but the dragons being born strengthened magic in the world and this white walkers blah blah blah. she's bad guy azor ahai, she (inadvertently) brought the whites and (inadvertently) gave them a dragon which let them cause much more damage. yea. I'm stoned sorry lol.
@@Vecha302 exactly, like she's an amazingly complex character who is fun to learn about and follow, but the staunch black and white of seeing her as so good and incapable of violence or a crazy evil Targaryen is bullshit. R.R. Martin wrote every character to be confusing and hard to pinpoint emotionally because they are supposed to be human, and humans are complicated. the ending of the show sucked and the writing went to hell, but her destruction of kings landing shouldn't have been met with shock and disbelief because that was the ONLY canon thing in the end of the show. have whatever opinion you want but nobody can really say her sack of kings landing was unprecedented or unlike her because she literally warned so many ppl of what she was planning to do, and through the show we see everyone around her questioning her instincts and choices which ends up fucking her, her end goal, and her whole situation. in the few moments where she is able to stand by her choices and her gut without being convinced to step back, she was almost always successful in her pursuits and when she wasn't she learned in her own way for herself. even when her own decisions were rash, ill-advised, or seemingly bad, she prevailed a lot of the time and learned from her own mistakes. I think people just got so used to the easiness of the show and expected her to be a meek and sweet little queen, forgetting she is a fucking Targaryen who has lost everything and been through shit just to get a throne and home she has never actually known. I think ppl were just mad her story didn't end easily and quietly, because they forgot how badass she was supposed to be in the books. sorry lol this doesn't mean shit im just happy someone agrees.
I think it's the whole "cry of... ecstasy" thing that inhibits a lot of people automatically going "sh*t man, that's really wrong, and AA ain't no hero". The agony is there, yes, but the ecstasy thing...
I always thought the Nissa Nissa story was just a PR campaign by the winner [Blood Emperor], and the details were changed over time into legend and lore... the "winner" always writes his-tory... right? Jon and Dany are meant "right" the "wrong" (which I think involves the whitewalkers and the Night's King theory, the wrong being done to the WW)... (like Aragon releasing the souls of the warriors from their blood oaths, after they fulfilled their oath to him...?) Idk, just a thought... Oh, and I've subscribed! Love your content