Azor Ahai and the Weirwoodnet - The Original Sin of Ice and Fire
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- This is kinda sorta my grand unifying theory of how all the Azor Ahai / Nissa Nissa / Lightbringer / dragons stuff directly connects to Westeros, the first Long Night, the Others, and the weirwoods. Renly's death at the hands of Stannis's shadow is the perfect role-play of the entire theory, so here it is! Enjoy!
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title image uses "Azor Ahai" by Tim Durning and "The First Men Burn a Weirwood" by Chase Stone
"I have altered the Weirwoodnet. Pray I do not alter it further." - Azor Ahai
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comment of the year!
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Lol. Nice.
LML is the G.O.A.T of Asoiaf content. Promise you'll never stop posting awesome videos my man! Praise Garth
I love in deep geek but the best video he ever put out is the one the mentioned LML. That dude probably doesn’t Praise Garth, it would ruin his silky voice.
@@Matt-xc6sp I love in deep geek too and I totally agree that man's voice is as silky as they come
@@Matt-xc6sp I prefer our lil devil
Agreed. In Deep Geek and Preston Jacobs are pretty enjoyable too
While I absolutely love the long interactive live streams I know everyone is not able to take the time to enjoy them fully. These shorter videos with analysis and theories on one specific topic are going to get a lot of attention. You are, as always, fascinating and entertaining. More and more people are noticing!
So true!!
I’m very new to this, but I heard/read (probably from LML) that the oily black stone may be the result of the petrification of the Ebony/Nightshade trees. They produced ancient monumental structures by using the wood of the black trees, then “enchanted” it with magic, petrifying it and giving it its oiliness and cementing its magic properties. Maybe the Wall (very similar to the 5 Forts) was built with a similar magic but using Weirwoods instead. Normally when something is described as oily, I think primarily of it being slick by touch, but oily can also describe something that shimmers with slickness. A shimmering slickness would be a good way to describe the Wall, “alive with light”.
Maybe weirwoods and Nightshade trees were the same/similar until Azor Ahai changed the ones in Westeros by evicting the Green Seer spirits from them. Azor Ahai fought the evil in the East successfully and built the Forts, then went to the Western borders of mankind and tried to do something at the Arm of Dorne, but didn’t work, so he fought on further to the Neck, which also didn’t work, then tried for a final time at the Wall, which only partially worked as the Weirwoods were a little different to the Ebony he used successfully in the East. The Wall is a sticking plaster rather than a final solution like the Forts. The wood of the Weirwood was used to build the Wall and spirits of the Green Seers were sacrificed to enchant it, with the White Walkers being spirits that were able to escape being sacrificed and seek revenge on humanity.
So good! Concise, beautiful. I always found it difficult to wrap my head around the entire theory, as it's multi faceted and complex. This video finally got me all the way there. Bravo 👏 👏
While watching I remembered that the Limes, the great wall the Romans built along their border in Germania, they started with a wooden construction, some wooden towers and later a wooden palisade. Only later they constructed a great wall out of stone ... so it's not unlike the Wall in Westeros, where first wood and Greenseers like guards in wooden towers watched over the border who were replaced by a great wall...
Just my thoughts on that topic xD
@David Lightbringer love the PP art! We’ll done. For the uninitiated you would want to include more about Bloodstone & connections. “Alive with light” Catelyn 1 the crystals in the Winterfell Sept. thoughts?
I really love your theories, and all this about Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa & the Weirwoodnet and green men!! IT makes so much sense!! And once more :Thank you LML, you are not crazy 😄💪🙌Please do more of these summaries about your therories, as other also mentions :I think even more people will have time to watch your incredible theories and content ✌️🫶🐉🔥and Praise Garth, ofc ✌️
Can we get an updated overview of your theories, involving the green and first men, the cosmology, and the god emperor etc?
All these subtopics are so nebulous and only spiralled over the years. Would be great to tie it all together oncemore.
yeah i did two theory icebergs a couple years ago, i’m due for another
@@DavidLightbringer you the realest 👑
@@DavidLightbringer the gods of vaylaria are the gemstone emperors however here’s the plot twist their were not 9 god kings but 14
When Brienne calls out "your Grace" it's cut off, and especially the way you read it sounds like Ygritte, who is another Nissa Nissa figure...
oh wow haha
Hi David, I don't know if you've already raised this point since I last read your essays, but have you ever looked into the "Wormwood" prophecy from the Book of Revelations? Here's the relevant verse:
"The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many died from the water, because it was made bitter." (Rev 8:10-11)
Of course there are the obvious parallels between the bloodstone meteorite and Azor Ahai as the source of the weirwoods, as well as the third trumpet call and the three attempts to forge lightbringer. But what isn't so obvious is that "wormwood", a plant used to treat intestinal worms, is from the Artemisia family of plants, and that Artemis is the Hellenic precursor to Diana, a Roman moon Goddess.
Perhaps this is the founding myth of a fiery comet begeting a tree that has moon symbolism that GRRM reinterpreted and we'd to his own mythos. It's one of the few precursor myths we've been missing so far. Most of the other mythical events in asoiaf seem to have had a basis the myth of our world.
Anyway mate, keep up the good work. Hope you are well.
i do see the parallel and yes I have in one very old essay looked at some of the “mythical astronomy” in Revelation - there’s quite a lot of it! But here specifically we’re talking about turning the waters bitter, and that compares well to poisoning the green see. Remember we talked about how brackish waters are part of this via Bracken and Bittersteel? How the Brackens poisoned the weirwood? The bitter, brackish water is a symbol of the corrupted wwnet. And then we have Bloodraven the wyrm in the wood - he’s playing that symbolic role of a dragon who’s invaded the wwnet, which was originally Azor Ahai’s thing
@@DavidLightbringer those are such interesting parallels. Good job on the whole "brackish"/"Braken" connection too. I really can't wait for these ideas to come together in Winds.
I agree with what you say Lml, but I am wondering if this scenario also could parall another event in the ancient past. Two brothers are fighting. Two Stark brothers perhaps? One Lord of Winterfell and the Night's King?
Or is it The Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor?
Or when the Night's King took power, and took control of the original Green Watch, there were other green men still around, in other places, gathering an army to take him down? Is that what the Last Hero did perhaps? 🤔
yes, to your last! There are def green men around to fight back - think of Renly's troops who fled back to the Reach to reorganize and then take KL at the Battle of the Blackwater. They are the children who help the last hero in that part of the story.
I think that NK AA is the dragon person, and NQ was the original Stark. But Brandon Breaker / LH could be the son of AA, making him both, it's hard to say. The Daynes deserve mention too, they are from the line of the Am Empress, it seems. A LH Dayne could be both Stark and "dragon," being a Dayne / GEOTD dragon
I just started watching GOT a year ago, I’m always late to some great shows. My daughter got me watching promising I would love it. Honestly and sadly it took Ned losing his head to get me interested and still can’t get enough. I found LML, Grayarea, Quinn’s Ideas and a few others to listen to and love it. The breakdown ,foreshadowing and theories are wonderful. I’m so glad y’all add so much to the show and books. Keep it coming 😊❤
I'm so glad this channel exists! All the time and effort, plus so many streams, videos and podcasts! I definitely spend my free time bingeing, but have much further to go...😅
Some things are still a little confusing about Azor Ahai. Was he one man or representative of a civilization or group of people? Like was he a stand-in for the Great Empire? Did they do something terrible to a group of people who could seek retribution magically? Did AA's creation of Lightbringer stem from the Comet impact? (Like was Lightbringer the actual impact)? Did AA /GE have knowledge of the impact & purposely omit that information in order to benefit in some way (magically, geo-politically, etc.)?
Also, why infiltrate the Weirwoods? Is it like a horcrux thing, where something important was distributed & stored in the WW to guard it against those seeking to destroy it?
And of course, the ultimate question: why are there Others? If they are like the sidhe/ fae, then they might have always existed in the liminal. They seem sentient and capable of planning. But then why come forth a second time thousands of years later?
These videos always generate questions I didn't know I needed to ask. And seeing things I never knew were there.
I wish more ASOIAF content creators delved deeper into the symbolic. So thank you so much for your in-depth analysis, which is as meaningful as it is revelatory!
Great video! I think the Nissa Nissa figure in the Renly's death scene is Brienne. She has the moon and sun in the banner and later on she is given Oathkeeper (long night symbol) by Jaime aka the lion of night. What do you think David?
i think she is the last hero, picking up the sword from the green men / children of the forest, but she does do moon maiden stuff sometimes. it’s like a before / after
@@DavidLightbringer It is a before/after thing!
Such an amazing video!!! 🔥
I'm wondering about the symbolic significance in Catlyns exchange right before our Shadow Man enters the scene. The exchange starts with time running short, prompting Catlyn to recall a promise made by the green man. He cedes, and has a sort of bossing up transformation moment as he's putting on his helm as if hes in some sort of true or magically pure form or like hes tapped in to the powers and their now active, followed by a sort of challenging statement saying "now we see who is stronger." Then BRIENNE gets on her KNEES to "BUCKLE ON HIS BELT" that's heavy with the weight of SWORD (what a strong seed). This is as Catlyn is watching, then she starts begging in the name of the mother, followed by the entry of the shadow baby. Catlyn interprets it as the kings shadow, since we know Shadow is baby I'm thinking of interpreting this like the spawn produced when Brienne got on her knees just then, though I'm not sure if that works alongside the Shadow baby canonically being Stannis's azor again figure's. Of course the Shadow baby carries out the slaughter of the green man. I guess I have a lot of thoughts on this section as its so clearly allegorical but the one driving this comment the most is Catlyns recalling of a promise to the green man followed by a good old sexy time and how this might relate to the prince who was promised. Who is catlyn symbolizing here, and did the green men promise that person a prince? Did something go wrong with the prince? Are azor ahai and the promised prince definitely the same? Im seeing azor as like the prince who was supposed to be promised but was botched and when hes "reborn" the internal struggle would be like between untapped access to power and responsibility over its use + over keeping men out and away from abusing it. Like discipline, taming of man's baser impulses type themes. Catlyn calls the green man out on the promise made to her and then the Shadow baby comes in almost like it could be on behalf of Catlyn though maybe not necessarily at her bequest, or maybe the Shadow baby interests are third party to the catlyn green man exchange and is interrupting, angered by the promise between them perhaps. I'm definitely getting both the nights queen and Nyssa Nyssa murder story out of this but I'm just curious about the promise made by the green man. is it dual symbology or was a magical baby or some other promise made by the magic side? Sorry if this is all over the place, thoughts anyone?
Sorry to just pop off with such a long comment but there's more. Like we know the seed is strong with the green man, but he says now let's see who is stronger before Brienne gets on her knees. And when Azor ahai invades the net it's like man's immoral assumption of power that isn't supposed to be theirs, which hunger for power is like a very human urge albeit on the ugly side of things. So it's reading to me like man wants power and the green men are down to give it to them if they can act right, but man has this internal struggle between good and evil to put it in easy terms and the children produced from the union keep using it irresponsibly and shit, unfit to uninvade the net if you will, and the prince who was promised will be one that is able to uphold both ends of a bargain where man can have a little access to their wierwood net through the three eyed raven maybe because it benefits reasons both green men and man if there was someone in the government of man who could reliably and actually provide institutions of political accountability amongst lords, which the three eyed raven can if he overcomes his very human draw to power and self interest or even accidental bias/ignorance prone to man. We know that Bran becomes king in some sense by the end and the genuinely solid political utility provided by three eyed ravenry in the development of institutions is understated. Like the fact that he is both three eyed raven and king of westeros whatever that ends up looking like in the books by the end are two hugely significant roles and themes of the book running together and the fact that kings were once princes seems to all work together for me. I have more thoughts on Brans youth in Northern political culture where institutions based on honor are already much stronger than they are in the South , cripples bastards and broken things, and blood raven as a precedent that should all be included in this comment but this is turning into an essay. This has been my impromptu theory on how bran may well be the prince who was promised.
i think Cat would be playing the NN role, like Mel, since they are parallel characters, and that fits with Cat seeming to call in the shadow. There is a possible pattern of green men selling NN to AA, or offering her up - check out Greenbeard taking Arya "the golden squirrel" to Beric Ahai
seeing your bird only strengthens the urge to get a raven like mormonts or a hawk. i so wish i could i travel in time i just wanna come storming down into a valley mouned at the head of a mongolian horde with a huge hawk perched on one forearm sword in the other hand hair flowing in the wind screaming into battle. thats why the dothraki is my favorite fighting force for all their savagery and lack of tactic, i love their culture cause not much has changed with them. they still go from city to city and collect. unlike the ironborn tho they held that mentality over the ages. i still say if khal drogo had lived and the dothraki were capable of adjusting to different methods of battle, like how the mongols adapted siege engines and catapults and scorpions as they conquered theyd been unstoppable. another thing is in the books ALOT more houses had siege towers nd catapult and the like. in the show they acted like scorpions were new but in the book ser rodrick and house manderly had all the siege tech. IT SUCKS! they lost to the boltons the way they did. that was so... ehhh i hated that i wanted rodrick to take winterfell back but i guess thatd take away from jon taking it back.
Azor Ahai / comes with the dawn and the weirwood net means Azor Ahai = Morning Wood
So what about the trees at the house of the undying?
Another excellent video 👌
Rewatch binge 🎉
also remember to birth the shadow baby, she had davos take her into the “magic castle” other wise he wouldn’t be able to enter, because their were magic spells guarding storms end
7 hells - I see you opening many eyes!!
You didnt list the videos in the description.
Which, given your output, is a bit of a drag.
thanks i’ll fix it
The real theory is that Martin wrote these incredibly dense books filled with foreshadowing, symbolism, and references to mythology with no intention of finishing. Thus forcing us to be the critical readers our HS English teachers wanted.
I really hope this isnt the path the books will go. But didnt know about the Wood Thrones
Isn't Aegon I then not also an Azor Ahai figure? He burned the green men (Durrandon and Gardener) and set plant alight (field of fire)?
oh yes the Field of Fire is a great one for all that symbolism
The real "tiger women" were the melisandre's we met along the way.
I see Remly, his gold crown shining in the sun. He has a rainbow patch, and he's smiling at everyone. I can tell you your theory craft will still be strong after the Knights of Summer have gone.
Does George know what you've been doing all this time (with his books)?
I think he needs another confidant. Not a yes man. Some more people to throw ideas at?
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When all the books for Asoiaf is done, I really would love to see David get to speak to GRRM to ask how much he got right.
hopefully the books will answer that question
@@DavidLightbringer have you seen vampire the masquerade Caine and Lilith I think the BS emperor was the Caine of the asoiaf world and the tiger woman/ night queen /his sister was the Lilth/ Abel of the tale
Hopefully we’ll all be alive to see those books get finished.
Also, he's already had questions personally answered by Grrm. That's a neat story.
@@Ash.Crow.Goddess he has?
Regarding oak trees. In Europe, most forests had originally mostly contained oak trees. But the Celts had cut them down to make use of them. Later mainly beech trees would grow since they grow much faster. So the oak forests had been corrupted by beech trees after the oak had been cut down by men.
I'd completely forgotten I had done that Virgin Mary style Nissa Nissa art 😂. Great video ✌️
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Honestly loving this condensed overview of the weirwood net invasion theory! Would absolutely love it if as time goes on and theories are developed you dropped some summary videos like this one 👌
I certainly now put more stock in the theory because of Elden Ring that GRRM did which had loads of stuff with a tree network
"Who is the leader of the others?" Cleo flies down on cue and poses to look fabulous. Well, I guess we have our answer. 😅
The Pink Dread strikes again! 😂
The videos and lore have kept this series alive for me. And it’s my favorite modern fantasy series.
I really do think that it’s channels like this, and the online community we have built, that are keeping the book hype alive. It’s now been 13 years since the last book came out, and the ending of the show kinda sucked, and yet we are all still so hyped for the next one! The publishers and Grr Martin better sponsor all of these channels when the next book comes out, and they better pay well!!!
You should watch all the Elden Ring lore videos because it is riddled with all the stuff LmL talks about and it was created by GRRM and one of the best fantasy lores ever made
Even if all of LML theories turn out to be wrong it’d just show the brilliance of GRRM writing skills , world building and knowledge of so many different historical and mythological events and LML ability to take all of GRRM writings and weave a very plausible theory with about a 100 hours worth of content that back those theories !!! Keep up the hard work for us Myth -Heads!!!
I must say, you do really have a staggeringly comprehensive take on the whole picture set up by, and, more importantly, underneath, this epic narrative old Mr. Martin has presented us with. I swear, the man should give up on his ever more obviously taxing efforts to complete his great work and just reach out to you to take up the task of finalizing the concluding chapters of his creation. You’ve got as clear a grasp of what’s going on, or what should go on, with it all, as the man himself…if not a clearer one, by this point!🤔😆
i appreciate that sentiment very much, but of course explaining something and writing something are two different (though related) undertakings. he’s already written as many words as are in ADWD for TWOW, but he’s got a few more chapters go. who knows what he may have rewritten… but it sounds like he’s coming down the home stretch and feeling more positive
Awesome video. Your comments on Stannis' shadow baby being a "shadow clone" of Stannis himself made me think that perhaps the original Azor Ahai/Night's King has a similar relationship with the Others. Like they are collectively the fractured remains of Azor Ahai.
yes, i think so. they’re ice dragons
So... looks like Theon Greyjoy was the "Nissa Nissa" of season 8. The Night King sacrificed him beneath the Winterfell weir wood. Also did you notice that when the Night King "died" (in the show) he shattered into ice bits that he melted into the ground beneath the weir wood! My first thought was that he was entering the weir wood network.
Lmao what a let down was that finale
Your comments re: the weirwood possibly originally being an oak tree + the death of the greenseer creating an “opening” for corruption to enter the net reminds me of the Arianne chapter from AFFC where kings guard knight Ser Arys Oakheart (Oak heart tree?) is killed by Areo Hotah. See Arys is “corrupted” when he breaks his vows and has an affair with Arianne, who turns him, bends his will to serve her own plan to place Myrcella on the iron throne.
Elden Ring has alien life forms coming to the lands between via meteorites and it is included in those beings the one that created the Erdtree Network 😂
In what way do you think Stannis "later" dreams the murder. I thought he literally committed the murder in the dream, essentially warging the Shadow Baby, and his denial was such that he believed it to be a dream.
I loved revisiting this stream, it was a very interesting one to begin with. Everyone should watch the entire stream! ✨
What up sis? Its your big bro Chadro!
I watch this dude too!
You know I'm down with ASOIAF!
Small weirwood net girl!
Intrigued by Mel's role here in 'creating' Azor Ahai, given that she will also play a role in Jon's resurrection.
LML read Lord of Light by Zelazny! You actually said Mahasamatman the other day. The audio version is good if that's your style. It's got everything! Kali and Durga, The Alchemical Wedding, Jon being taken over by Nights king. There's so much. I hear you state a theory of yours and I'm just like well that's basically what happens in Lord of Light!
i’ve read half of it and yeah, clearly a HUGE influence
Zelazny is one of my favorite authors and deserves so much more notice than he receives.
Hey LML, i had an idea that I wanted your thoughts on.
Could the original sin be 'rape' of Nissa-Nissa? Azor ahai forcing himself on Nissa, because she loved someone else, in a sex rite just like we see jon and ygritte in the dream before a wierwood tree(but ofc consensual in that case). I think it fits a lot of the story's themes.
Why i thought this was because you once said that you thought that it was possible Azor Ahai was not a single person but rather representative of a culture of people at that time. Which means Nissa's culture was the COTF. They waned in influence over the years. What do we call horrible acts of devastation on a culture in the real world? 'Rape'. Eg the rape of Nanking. Could the same have happened to COTF?
we’re basically told that it did yeah
@@DavidLightbringer don’t forget they tried marrying into house Targaryen maybe it wasn’t the maestsrs that fit the fire of summer hall but a stark to prevent the enemy of man wielding power of the gods and so the destruction of the current Starks was karma for what they did in the pass . Aldo it extends to the Martells with the potential their that the first aegon wife was raped tortured and killed and so Elia was raped tortured and killed
I like the touch that Renly's crown is decorated with jet amidst all the horns/leaves motifs in his get-up, since jet is a smooth black stone that comes from fossilized wood. To get the stone, wood changes under extreme pressure. (Insert parallels to the motifs in David's theories about the green men, transformation, shadow babies, etc). Blackness added upon green and gold...it's a nice costuming detail that could be a random stone choice that fits the vibe but also works as an unintentional or intentional reference as a bridge between the stag/woodland/forest motifs (the before state of the land and more primal culture ties to jet's original state of wood) and the stone structures later built by the regional kings and leaders. It is a different reference to a black stone than obsidian (dragon glass, associated with the Others and volcanos, ice and fire) and the oily stone structures. It also teaches us that the Westerosi use the term jet for that stone, so we can't chalk up the material of those oily black stone structures across the world to simply being a vocabulary mix-up and that they are likely a separate material than normal jet from normal fossilized wood. Could be cool if they were some kinda freaky eldritch jet. I would laugh so hard if the oily black stone idea came from GRRM's inkjet printer malfunctioning and he got this idea for a weird, inky, jet and remembered the odd stones from Lovecraft.
loved this thank you
"(The Emperor) Elagabalus was a priest in an obscure cult in Syria that venerated a black stone meteorite - a culture that would have been deeply strange to the Romans."
George watches these videos and takes notes
I wonder if Nissa-Nissa was actually a Green Woman or "of the Green Men" (Woman seems more fitting than Man imo). It would explain the "Tiger Woman" depiction from Yi Ti since, like you said in the theory about Ned Stark's "Old Ones", the Old Ones/Green Men lived on Leng, and I don't remember if you say so but I believe that the Green Men are close relatives of the Children of the Forest, perhaps even the first mixed offspring of CotF and humans. Maybe Nissa-Nissa was some kind of Lengi Green Man royalty and the excuse Azor Ahai gave for marrying her was to unite the bloodlines and empires of the Great Empire of the Dawn and the Kingdom of Leng's Green Men. Only, Azor Ahai really just wanted access to the incredibly magically powerful blood of the Green Men royalty. There is power in king's blood after all, which he used to call down the Moon Meteors™, accidentally or otherwise, and bring on the Long Night. Perhaps Azor Ahai was taught about the Weirwood Net by Nissa-Nissa or a relative of hers, planting the seeds in his head to bust into the WN in the first place
I think she was a green women too and yes that has to be tiger woman. these stories are all mixed up but the characters are important
@@DavidLightbringer Awesome! Keep up the good work, without your theories I think I would have gone mad from waiting for TWoW 😅
multicolored rainbow guard = great empire of the dawn multi-colored eyes symbolism?
These edits/videos are getting so good. More of this plz. Unfortunately I don't always have time to listen to the original streams. Great work.
hi! I've been following your channel for some time, and I there's still no video I didn't enjoy (: I admire how deeply you study the text and the mythology behind it, all theories are so interesting and you make it easy to follow the trail of thought in them. not to mention the visuals! there's clearly so much love and care you put into this channel, thank you, it's always a delight to see new videos pop up.
also I rewatched this video today and it got me thinking.
if we have direct allusions that the green men were slain for this sacrifice, for Nissa Nissa we have things like: "her spirit went into the sword of light" and "her scream broke the moon and brought down the meteors".
but another interesting thing relating to Nissa Nissa you brought up here is "death by childbirth".
1) Nissa Nissa and the Night Queen seem to be thematically connected/dual figures, like Azor Ahai and the Night King.
2) in your Night Queen video you propose that she was some kind of an ice witch (like Melisandre is a fire witch). and she "conceived" the first white walkers from the Night King, but they are just shadow-clones made from his life force. and it's just like Melisandre made the shadow-clones of Stanis.
here I see the a sort of eco of this theory: Nissa Nissa's death somehow allowed Azor Ahai's shadow to enter the weirwood net. so we have him "piercing her with a sword", and this act allowing him, or his "shadow" to enter the weirwood.
and here we come back to the begining -- Catelyn remembering that her mother Minisa died in childbirth. so, did the same or similiar ritual happened with Nissa Nissa? "scream of agony and ecstasy" still works in the parallel with Melisandre this way. even if it has terrible connotations now, since it is highly debatable the "ritual" was consensual. Maybe Nissa Nissa died because it wasn't?
3) again, the ritual Melisandre did took Stanis's life force to make his "shadows", and he became weaker for it. and in Azor Ahai legend it's the opposite -- he took Nissa Nissa's life force away to make himself stronger. life force here is also the metaphor for the soul. and Nissa Nissa's soul is, as we suspect, connected to the spirits of the green men in the weirwood net. that is why her death helped banish them from it, right?
so, maybe here the ritual is fully reversed, perverted. he is forcing himself on Nissa Nissa, and having her bear his literal or shadow-clone child -- mixing in blood of the green men with human and/or forging the link to the race that can control the weirwood. and through that connection he can possess the weirwoods and expel the spirits of green men to be "white shadows" of themselves.
4) in couple of your videos, you discussed how according to the tapestry in the s2 of HoTD and the s1 song, we may assume that the 3 heads of the dragon are: the dragon, the rider, and the spirit of some ancestor of the rider living in and being passed down his dragon's bloodline. and this makes dragons and people next of kin, and helps to establish the bond.
4.1) Azor Ahai was, most likely, a dragon lord of the past. So, with all the parallels, we can assume he may have tried to establish the same sort of link with the weirwoods. Put his own spirit in them, or the spirit of his family member. Or, since we're talking about 2 different races here, just having a human or demi-human spirit in the weirwood net could open it up to all other people? I'm just spitballing here, idk.
4.2) but the tapestry of forging the dragon bond does invoke the strong Azor Ahai parallels, with the woman being sacrificed (by the sword), and her spirit being put into a "fiery vessel". on the tapestry it is a dragon. in Azor Ahai legend it is a "sword of light".
remember how the other metaphor for a comet/meteor that we know is "a red sword"? a sword of fire, you can say. and, once again we come back to the start: Nissa Nissa's scream broke the moon. or, even better: the moon kissed the sun, and the moon broke, died, "birthing" the flaming swords/dragons that fell on the earth and started the Long Night. the Azor Ahai put his sword in Nissa Nissa and it came out carrying her spirit, alive with it, like a child.
the "birth" and "bloodline connections" seen to be very important here.
4.3) if Nissa Nissa carried the actual, not shadow-clone child of Azor Ahai while she died, did he use his connection to the child's spirit to enter the net with it? or the child survived? it there a chance that it was not the Azor Ahai that became the Night King, but this child instead? the shadow of Azor Ahai (literal or not). the sword aflame with Nissa Nissa's spirit, that took part in the corruption of the weirwood net. the greenseer leader of the night watch. the sacrifice to the others, one might even say. it fixes the timeline heresy a bit, at the very least.
or it's the other way around, and the child actually is the Last Hero -- the flaming sword that Azor Ahai forged through terrible sacrifice, to enter weirwood net. and he ended up slaying his dad who became the Night King. still the prince that was promised to the others. and not delivered.
ah, this was a long one. idk if it all makes sense. maybe it was all said before even! :"D but I just couldn't stop thinking about the parallels.
While I tune in for live streams, sometimes my friends who loved the series are intimidated to join. These videos are perfect for sucking them into your weirdwood net 😂
Exactly! 😎
Loved The Wall parallel to Renly’s Tent and the Weirwood at the NightFort. Can’t wait for more analyzation through these chapter reads. Very stoked for the Dunc POVs and your interpretation of those events and what they may foreshadow. Cheers
This video format is perfect for my add/adhd brain, lol. Thanks for this super clear explanation with incredible art! Love it, David! ❤ Idk if it's just me but ASOIAF is the most complex stories I've ever read, and then tried to really understand so I'm grateful for the delivery!Always impressed by your big brain 😊
Bird flying into your hand right then felt pretty climactic, I half expected it to unveil the big reveal lol
This has nothing to do with this scene but I really do not like what Randall Tarly said to Daenerys on game of thrones. Saying that she’s a foreign invader?! I’d be like sir don’t act like it was generations ago, you prob saw my parents before. And the only reason I was raised on another land is cuz y’all killed my family and stole my home and tried to kill me! I would have made sure he lived a long non tongue or limb having life. My house motto would be we don’t kill you, just your spirit. There are fates worse than death.
Your Green Man series is one of my absolute favorites. Thank you, David for your continued work! Very appreciative!
You ought to study Elden Ring lore. Insane parallels obviously since it was written by G.R.R.M.
Superb art choices as per usual, good sir.
The rowan tree is seen as the tree of protection, particularly against witches and enchantment.
I swear you put more thought into a single video than D&D put into the last three seasons of GOT. Love your theories and all the worldbuilding. Keep being awesome.
I honestly enjoy your videos more than the books❤😂
Wait a minute. Doesn’t it make more sense that azor ahai was trying to force nissa nissa’s soul into a dragon, and the dragon is named lightbringer, a flaming sword of the morning? Maybe that was the origin of dragon riding ? Using a child of the forest in a sacrifice ? By an anacoenf hero of house Dayne?
Yes! I think that is one meaning of the story!
Interesting! You may be on to something.
I don't know whether to kiss you or curse you for getting me thinking about these books like this again. This is all phenomenal stuff. Normally wouldn't comment much but you've been saying it helps the channel so here you go.
Thinking about this all recently along the lines of your videos it seems more and more obvious that the initial azor agai invasion/desecration was both kinslaying and blood ritual.
I'm inclined to wonder whether it all started with bloodstone emperor hosting a wedding for his brother to nissa nissa and kicking off an empire of the dawn civil war.
The repeated references to guest right, incest, kinslaying, power of king's blood, conflict between brothers etc all feel like they must be reflected in that 'original' sin.
One possible variation of that might be azor ahai marrying his sister off to 'khal' green seer as part of this overarching scheme/betrayal.
what about a green man selling NN to AA? seen that pattern i think
@@DavidLightbringer didn’t viserys sell his sister to a khal
It sounds like a pact. Sealed with a marriage.
It is theory that Azor Ahai kill her to get the throne. By marry her off to some else? Could be make her leave the empire.
As much as I enjoy these videos (and, to be clear, I'm not even taking the piss here, I really do enjoy them), it sometimes feels like the stereotypical conspiracy theorist who has newspaper articles pinned to his walls, and 826 metres of red string linking words all over the place. You probably are right about a lot of things with the symbolism, but one wouldn't want to get carried away with it too much.
It's like that old joke, wherein the book says that the sky was blue, and your English teacher expects you to write a fifteen page essay about how the blueness symbolises the melancholic depressivity of the chapter, whereas the author actually just meant to simply remark that the sky was literally blue.
I don't get married to specific details/symbols much, but I do buy into the idea of the "weirwood invasion."
In fact, as a clarifying idea, I think R'hllor *IS* Azor Ahai, whether that's an individual or a group/council of individuals from the Great Empire. Whether it involves the invasion of the weirwoods specifically or another avenue was found to manifest in the warp/veil/spiritual realm, doing so caused a cosmic apotheosis that created a god, or god-like entity. And it's very reasonable to believe that this act caused some turmoil with the existing occupants which caused The Long Night and birthed the cursed people now known as The Others.
I think *that* is what informs the final "Song of Ice and Fire." It isn't Jon's parentage, as I think bloodline power is built up to be a red herring. Instead I think the real song is Jon's resurrection as a "fire wight." As such, he will be touched by R'hllor and, consequently, act as a proxy to Azor Ahai/Great Empire to put the two ancient enemies back together. And I think Alt Shift X has the right of the ending, which is a peaceful resolution that brings balance to the seasons, in this case using Jon as a proxy to bring reconciliation to the spirits which schismed those 10,000 years ago.
yeah i mean that’s a very general description of the ending, but it’s correct - this story is all about reconciliation. of the Others to the trees, first and foremost. Jon Dany and Bran will all facilitate this. as for the ice and fire yea it’s not limited to one thing, it’s an expression of the harmony of opposites ideal which again goes back to reconciliation
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah. I guess that was me as an old man yelling obvious things at clouds. 😅 Probably also goes to show that I actually *am* married to at least one specific idea (Azor Ahai=R'hllor) and would love it to tie into the generally accepted closure. Sorry for getting a bit obtuse there.
That transition at 2:23 creeps me out so much 😭😭😭
I don't think the weirwood trees could have been anything other than a species of maple. They're the only trees I know of with leaves like five fingered hands. And some have crimson leaves, while others have sap that runs more freely. I wouldn't be surprised if there's even a white barked species I can't think of right now. They also can grow quite wide with age.
All of this shit was completely ruined from the show. Luckily that will all be erased when the books come out. If they are smart they make the new john snow show about how he actually turns into Azora Ahai and they didn't actually kill the night king. They could make up for everything by doing that.
Have you read Elden Ring's story? Because George wrote the universe, I see alot of similarities with comets and meteors brining both ruin and arcane horrors. A great primal tree that's taken control of by a wielder of said arcane horror, and that same man that corrupted the world is remembered as a hero, a warrior that all should strive to be like. In a surprising turn of irony his son spends his undying breath keeping the influence of the stars at bay, heralding events similar to the one that granted his father such power.
There's so many similarities I'd recommend a dive on your free time
The one part of this theory that I can’t get past is nights king invading the weirwood net and then leaving to join the others- who he’d just evicted from it so that he could have its power. That part doesn’t make sense. Why go through all that trouble to get into the weirwoods only to remove yourself from it to lead the beings that you just kicked out? It seems more likely that Azor/ nights king remained in the weirwood net and the others are attacking because they want it back.
Don’t get me wrong, I love your theories and channel as a whole, this is meant constructively. The others don’t seem to have access to the weirwood net, so Azor caused the long night, invaded the weirwood net, left and took over those he’d kicked out of it, and then led them south to attack mankind because….??? What’s the motive for the war?
Hey LML check out my comments on your green man stream you posted 2 months ago, I watched this first and then that and I like your idea of him going into the weirwood network but I think it was for a different reason, forbidden love between a man and either.. do they have "female" green men? Or a female child of the forest and her tragic death and his effort to bring her back, and the man was a stark, killed by his own brother, your pretty creative so if you look back on some of your theory with my idea in your head maybe it fits? Maybe not lol
So I had to like the video but it was at 777 likes but I had to hit it. 777 is just a lucky number. LML your my absolute favorite asoiaf contact creator. Quinn is also awesome but your deep knowledge of historical myth is right up my ally and you crush it. I was a history majorly study mediterranean in biblical archaeology so all of this is just so amazing. Thanks for being amazing. 🎉
oh okay well that explains it! Mediterranean history, awesome! Have you checked out my other channel, Mythic Concepts? Or the video called "Eve Did Nothing Wrong" on this channel?
if the bloodstone causing the others to wake up how can they fight until the north of westeros? when all the man still in the dawn continent? can anyone explain the timeline? if the hero fighting the second long night? who defeated the first long night?
Glad to see that your channel is doing well, I remember when you were still trying to get 15k subs. Thanks for the theories and awesome commentary David!
Damn! I forgot how gruesome and harrowing reading this chapter for the first time! Harrowing, Intense in the most incredible way
im curious who ended the first long night if azor ahai supposedly started it?
This gives me the same vibes as Kazuya chakra god being a thing at the end of Naruto lol
Rowan tree = Rohan Webber in Dunk Web= Weirwood net
oh god yes that book is WILD
If loving this is crazy, I don't want to be sane
there we go!!
I’d love to hear David’s take on the new “fan art” covers for Winds and Dream releases by Ertac Altinoz…
i did in one of the QnA last week, we broke it down.
I'm randomly jumping from video to video without much rhyme or reason so I might have missed some topics you've already discussed but do you think there is a connection between Azor Ahai and Hugor of the Hill? The name Hugor could be derived from Azor via Huzhor or Hyrkoon. Weirwoods are commonly associated with hills ie High Heart, hollow hill, Howling Hills. Hugor's wife is specifically mentioned as tree like and blue eyed ie Green Man or Night's Queen figure. His 44 sons could be connected to the 44 ribs on Nagga's Hill. There could also be an echo with Hugor and the Faith of the Seven and Ned with his seven companions at the Tower of Joy but that feels more tenuous.
yeah so the series you want is the Great Empire of the Dawn playlist… check out the origins of the dothraki video. you’ll love that one and I think we got into the Huzor Amai / Hugor Hill / Azor Ahai stuff
Counterpoint: there was no Nissa-Nissa, no Azor Ahai & no Lightbringer. The prophecy is a complete fabrication. The weirwoodnet is itself the "original sin". The Singers believe they (their race) was created "by the gods" BUT if the "Old Gods" are (as Jojen says) the spirits of the greenseers gone into the trees then we have a bit of a "chicken & egg" situation don't we ? How could "the gods" create the Singers if the Singers ARE the gods ? As Leaf says " The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them". Who are "the gods" she is talking about ? We have to concede that (at least) the Singers believe there is a powerful intelligence responsible for their creation, an intelligence that predates them & is separate from them. Whatever or whoever "the gods" that Leaf mentions are, whether they be a collective consciousness left by a precursor civilization or elemental spirits of reality, the Singers believed that their gifts (greensight, skinchanging) came from those gods & they seem to have used the weirwoods as a focus for their worship. Now if we look at the Singers during their war with the FM using greensight & skinchanging to their advantage but still losing because of the numbers game, it's not hard to imagine they might (in desperation) try to use those psychic gifts to enter the trees (the god realm) & get more power. This could certainly be interpreted as "breaking into heaven" which, as a general rule, is a big no-no in fantasy. Where it all really started to go wrong though was when Men got involved in the Weirnet. The biggest alteration of the... personality (?) of the Weirwoodnet occurred when (short on numbers) the Singers started employing human greenseers.
"Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill."
- Bran Stark, the King of Winter
The Singers believe in a world of checks & balances, a world where there is always a "wolf in the woods" to keep the deer from taking over. How then would they react to humans ? Would they think their gods had forsaken them ? Would they think perhaps that they (the Singers) must become the wolf ? Or did they see that humanity's worst enemy is itself & so they used what means they had to ensure that humanity lived in a state of constant war ?
honestly, "the prophecy is a complete fabrication" is entirely inconsistent with how the story works - where all visions and prophecies have some amount of truth to them - as well as with the authors words on how he handles prophecy, which is that he likes to have them come true., but not in the ways anyone expects. So no, there's absolutely no chance the prophecies are "just made up" and that there was no NN and AA. Also, literally every chapter symbolism breakdown I've ever done documents some version of the AA - NN myth here so you're essentially calling my entire channel a hallucination here. I'm sure it was fun for you but it's not a serious proposition
Fire and blood 🔥🔥🔥
The weirwood trees are afraid of fire. Ghost of High Heart says so.
“Nor do they love the flames,” / “And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.” So the dragon men were among the first to come, and they burned the weirwoods from the start. They had a burning sword in their fists. The Others got a load of chyt to get off their chest.
LmL, the horned prophet! 🦌 ❤🗡️☄️💥🌚
Perhaps a long shot but when you mentioned green men and Nissa Nissa being sacrificed together, perhaps Renly is still the green man but Nissa Nissa symbol would be Brienne and Melissandra. Though neither physically died, in Brienne was the anguish and Melissandra the ecstacy.
i think Brienne might actually be the last hero figure here, picking up the sword of the green men and swearing vengeance on NK AA. She has much of the same symbolism as Jon, post transformation stage. Brienne is a lot like Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree - Lyanna is the NQ and her costume of a tree knight represents a last hero / weirwood warrior type. She plays both roles but for symbolism, the KOTLT is like the child of NQ. That’s Brienne I think
Excellent video ! great way to start the day ! Praise Garth and the Greenmen
Ashai looks like Pittsburgh in the 70s.
If i remember correctly, there's nights watchmen built /burried into the wall--sentinels -- maybe its not sentinels as in soldiers but sentinels as in trees and its green men/chikd of the forest spirits in the trees that were sacrificed to build the wall--built with the "help" of children of the forest
well that story is def a symbolic parallel to all this
You know your stuff about ash and rowan trees 😊
Appreciate the editing and added art of this condensed livestream. Great work 👏
Hmm .. I haven’t finished the series yet, but it seems you believe that Azor didn’t stop the long night (or the others).. instead he created/ lead the others? If so, then who defeated the others during the long night? A different Hero? And wouldn’t this mean that he(Azor)forged a sword to defeat himself? Finally, if the lore is a lie, then who maintained it after AA disappeared; r'hllor?
the R’hllorists are definitely doing PR for Azor Ahai. Check out the video Azor Ahai the Bad Guy, and the Nightbringer series for my actual answer, but yeah it’s definitely a tangled up myth. But the big clues are: he murdered his wife, that’s bad, and when he did, he broke the moon. That’s how you CAUSE a Long Night, breaking a moon.
the last hero was the hero, presumably, but what relationship did he have to Azor Ahai? that’s what I’m trying to tease out. I think father / son