Winds of Winter Predictions: The Battle of Ice
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 бер 2020
- The uneasy Bolton alliance holds Winterfell, while Stannis's troops are camped a short distance away in a snowstorm, but the Freys, Manderlys, and Ramsay himself are coming for Stannis in the opening pages of Winds of Winter. But don't forget about Mance Raydar, Theon Greyjoy, Barbrey Dustin, and other players caught in the crossfire... and yeah we spent several minutes discussing Frey Pie. How not.
Winter's Winds are blowing, and @Quinn's Ideas and @Lucifer means Lightbringer are bringing you the 23 most-anticipated plotlines of George R. R. Martin's The Winds of Winter during the month of March. Make sure to subscribe to both of our channels if you don't want to miss any of the videos in this series!
* Winds of Winter playlist: • Winds of Winter Predic...
* Mythical Astronomy: lucifermeanslightbringer.com
* Quinn's Ideas: / @quinnsideas
* Get on the mailing list for Quinn's upcoming graphic novel Tadhya!
www.indiegogo.com/projects/ta... - Розваги
"More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly...The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber".
I always thought this was a message, alluding to the pro-Stannis alliance within Winterfell having been solidified. For what it's worth, Lord Wyman would be the ringleader of a northern conspiracy given the scheme w/Rickon, so it makes sense that he's depicted leading the snowmen on the wall. Also, Theon observed Whoresbane and Harwood Stout quietly speaking together during a breakfast. I wonder what they were discussing that they didn't want overheard? Not proof positive, but it's sure is interesting.
Oh hey that's a nice catch! Makes perfect sense! 💯
I could be reading too much into this, but I thought there was some hidden significance to Lady Barbrey and Theon stopping in front of Rickard and Brandon's tombs, and then having an exchange about the swords being moved. Meera took Rickard's, and Bran Brandon's, when Bran's group left the crypts. I wondered if Wex told Lord Wyman that the group had been carrying swords when they left the crypts, and to prove to Lady Barbrey that Bran and Rickon are alive, Wyman told her to check the crypts for tombs missing their longswords. And now that she's seen it, she'll join the conspiracy.
I totally agree👍👍
@@krakentacos It's also interesting that apart from Wyman, Umber, Stout, and Barbrey, there are 8 other snowmen. I'm curious who those represent if they represent anyone at all. Cool username, btw!
Totally agree. I've thought the same!
Wyman Manderly has the greatest quote in the series after Little Walder dies:
"So young. Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey."
Snakie And he said it while calmly eating Frey pie. It doesn’t get more gangster than Wyman Manderly.
Mayhaps! Ala lord of the crossing....just caught it.
Stannis is gonna play the mayhaps card lol, and freys goin in. 😅
Dude is a badass. He don’t care if ppl think he’s a fat buffoon. Gangster and clever. But Roose is a true calculating sociopath. If Lady Dustin works against the conspiracy, Manderly might be finished. As long as he deals the Boltons a crippling blow, he will have done his part.
Just, but harsh. The Mannis, indeed.
@@chadsummerchild1120 hi Chad
I wonder how Stannis would feel if he knew that he's a fan favourite, how everyone loves Stannis The Mannis, how people actually think he's pretty funny.
Probably delighted and bemused and suspicious.
He would just scowl and say nothing probably
@@daeshawncustard
That's why we adore him.
I'd like to think he'd find the irony amusing.
Agree but I don't think of Stannis as a funny guy.
So, Stannis has been long-recognized as the top military strategist in Westeros. And he’s had weeks to do nothing but think. To me, it’s obvious the Stannis has a Plannis. Don’t worry guys, Stannis got this. I’m calling this for the stag before the third round.
He will win no doubt and he will march for kings landing
@@stephencarroll9935 well, we don't know. Let's assume, that Stannis wins, which he propably will. He takes Winterfell, northern houses swear him fealty, he secures the Dreadfort and Moat Cailyn. And he install Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and Wyman Manderly as Rickon's Regent.
What should he do next?
This is hard decision. He can stay in the North to immediately prepare for war with the Others, but that leaves the Freys and Lannisters behind, ready to backstab him.
He can send some men to garrison the Wall and take the rest to the Riverlands, to take the Twins and hopefully burn every Frey he can get.
BUT: what will Littlefinger do? At the moment he has, to some degree, control over the Vale, the one of the 2 regions on the entire continent not destroyed by war, and richer one, as Vale has big amount of fertaile land. What will he do? Knights of the Vale have to move their asses at some point. Will Littlefinger support Stannis? Will he attack him? And what about the Riverlords? What about Blackfish and Lady Stoneheart? Whst about Young Griff Aegon? Will he win? How much north will he get? And how much south will Stannis get before heading back to the Wall? Will there be battle betweeb Stannis and Aegon? And what about Lannister' army? What will it do while Jaime is missing?
There WAAAY too many questions to predict Stannis' fate right now
@@pawemarsza9515 this is a well thought out answer I cannot deny you that if I were stannis since winter is coming I would secure the north whilst also destroying house frey and securing the twins as they are vital then prepare for winter with all the houses of the north behind me its tough yet but that's what I feel right now
@@pawemarsza9515 and littlefinger cant even fathom him rn let's just wait for the release to see whatll happen
@@pawemarsza9515 little finger would never help stannis .....
little finger would never use stannis to gain power
Show: Ramsey flattens Stannis twice
Kneelers: GRRM's broad strokes will be the same
Books: Stannis schools Ramsey like a litle kid
That's just a fan prediction. Roose Bolton is still alive in the books. I think it is 100% possible the Bolton's stay in Winterfell and wait for the snow to freeze Stannis to death.
@@levvy3006 Manderlys will propably open the gatesof Winterfell and let Stannis in.
@@levvy3006 Roose already sent half of his forces to basically go die.
Stannis whole character arc is sacrificing his humanity for destiny and justice. I know Stannis fans don't like to hear it, but I think George RR Martin told D&D he would die at Winterfell to the Bolton's. It might not happen like it did in the TV version. But it just seems like common sense book wise.
"Southerners don't last long up here..." - Ser Rodrik Cassel
Levvy maybe but thank Christ he won’t go out like he did in the show it will at least be justifiable in the books
Notice how Theon thinks of Stannis as "the king"... Kind of a holdover from Ned's upbringing. Ned viewed Stannis as the rightful king. That Stark education is still in Theon, for whatever it's worth.
I love how Manderly has mastered the customs and politics of both the north and the south. He runs his court like a southern lord, but knows the traditions of the north. Not only did he give the three Freys guest gifts, when he and his party arrived at Winterfell, they brought their own food and they never ate Roose’s food. He never accepted Roose’s bread and salt, therefore he and his soldiers never broke guest right when they did their little murder spree (minus the kill budding supervillain Big Walder did).
Wyman really is built different
I mean, the Manderlys were originally from the Mander in the Reach, so it makes perfect sense
@@Redpilled_Retribution true
I hate to be Mr. Tinfoil Prestonite here but Big Walder definitely didn’t kill Little Walder. No way he could’ve butchered a boy twice his size, and Ramsay absolutely knew LW was dead at the breakfast.
A character that seems to be spoke of little is Jeyne Poole. I have a theory that she embodies the soul of the North in a single character. She was there when the dire wolves came home, when Bran fell, when Lady was put down, When Eddard was attacked and killed. She witnesses first hand of Bolton cruelty. Every traumatic thing happening to the north she has experienced almost entirely first hand. She knows every Stark. She didn't just witness, but was the object of Theon's redemption. If she makes it to the Wall she'll know wildlings and white walkers and The lord of light. I believe ASOIAF parallels to the Age of Heroes, where shit got so bad data entry broke down thus history was lost and forgotten and is only remembered by songs and legends. If Mance survives Winterfell, there will be a song about Jeyne and Theon. If there was one character I could pull out of the books and talk to about the books its her. The only thing what would surprise her is Dragons.
i feel like Stephen dillane would have knocked the deadpan stannis humour out of the park so its a huge shame the show never gave him any of those lines. they're bias destroyed that character
100%
100%
Dry humour is his kind of thing 😂
Damn, you guys don't think Stannis' win over the Wildlings was impressive? He beat 100,000 wildlings with Giants and Wargs. Even without a ton of discipline and organization, some tribes were organized. That was the most impressive victory in the books so far to me.
Dammit, I don't know why it never clicked before.
R'hllor is a fiery heart, Stannis is a stag. Hart is an archaic word for "stag". So combined they are the Fiery Hart.
It's a fiery hart inside a fiery heart, it's a big joke lol
@@DavidLightbringer Hartception?
@@DavidLightbringer if you can symbolickly link a dead female fire wolve and dead stag. Youll be onto something
dire wolf. i misspeled dire wolve on accident and my head exploded.
Dead fire -Dire
@@teese1630 sometime your comments on asoiaf vids piss me off but this was actually really good
@@sabrinakrisb4672 lol these two comments made me laugh
I love the efforts Lord Manderly went to: guest gifts to the late Freys and bringing so much of his own food so as to avoid eating his hosts' food... he is in the clear as far as the Gods and Laws of Hospitality go, so he is under no obligation to the Boltons or anyone else there
He's cannier than Walder Frey, that's for sure.
He's the Tywin of The North.
i really didnt understand this part. Is they pie made of frey fact or theory? maybe i am just bad at reading between the lines, but thats why i watch these videos, haha
@@ichundichundduunder
It's not established canon, but it's definitely fan consensus (+ we got Frey pie in the show).
@@alanpennie8013 Well for me the show is just fanfiction so i dont take anything serious from the show thats past the books. But i do like the notion that the reason for Wyman Manderly bringing is his own food is him planning some kind of treachery in Winterfell. The thought that the food consists of murdered Freys is very satisfying and disgusting at the same time
Wyman cooked the 3 Freys
I think the Battle on Ice will draw heavily on the historical Batte on Ice between the Teutonic Knights and the Grand Princedom of Novgorod. Alexander Nevskiy, the Rus Prince, had an army of around a thousand of his knights, along with around three thousand of local Finnish tribesmen he recruited against the Germans, while the German army of three thousand consisted mostly of mounted Knights.
He lured them into a fight on a frozen lake, playing on the overconfidence of the Teutons, and met their attack with his army dismounted, just like Stannis planned. The Germans, unfamiliar with the terrain charged head on across the lake, only to be met with a stalwart shieldwall of the Rus Knights, who held long enough for Germans to accumulate in a single spot and then used his tribesmen reserves to strike them from the sides, Teutons panicked and ran right onto the weaker ice, to mostly drown in the cold waters of Chudskoe Lake.
That's what I think will happen, but multiple Manderly's would kill a few Frey soldiers who're able to escape.
The Soviet film, probably the most famous depiction of a medieval battle, came out in 1938.
I'd be amazed of GRRM the film buff hasn't seen it.
Aleksander Nevsky was *King in the North!*
kulnitsky
It was an Aristocratic Merchant Republic with an elected for life prince that had almost absolute powers.
@@kulnitsky
Ok.
Prince in The North.
Ice, Ice Baby!
he's back with a brand new mission
kill that Bran boy, oh no that's Rickon
@@DavidLightbringer
Then a cold hand grabs a hold of him tightly, soars like a crow both daily and nightly.
Will he ever stop? Yo, I don't know......pull out lightbringer and make him glow.
To the extreme I rock fire like an Andal, light up the night and melt an Other like a candle.
I love this thread!
You forgot the actual supposed reason behind Lady Dustin's hatred: her husband accompanied Ned and died, his bones left in Dorne
That's actually kind of fucked up and it makes sense.
I knew Ned was on that destroy-all-evidence kick when it came to tower of joy, but not giving up the bones? That’s just sloppy for all the extra shit it’s going to get you in long term
How was he supposed to send them back considering it was only him and Howlen Reed?
They pulled down the tower of joy and raised cairns for the fallen and brought Lyanna's bones back. Surely they could have managed a few more bodies!
Not just they but I do believe that instead of returning the man’s bones he returned her husband’s horse which she always saw as an insult
Stannis the Mannis for the win!
Ned Stark will always be missed, the Hero we deserved but not the one we needed.
Stannis in effect used Ned's name to recruit the mountain clans.
@@alanpennie8013 If Ned somehow escaped, he probably would meet back up with his son and rally his army to Stannis' banner.
Eddard Stark is overacted. Some great POV chapters... but there’s so much great actual character arcs... one of my favorite to read is Briennes progression. When she kills the “fool” Shag mummers after he digs the grave for dick crabbs... the way she stabs him and tells him to laugh. Breaking down...
@@gfilmer7150 Ned should have cut his losses once he learned the truth and Robert died, sent the girls to Dragonstone ahead of him and some of his guards with the letter. If he failed to escape, his guards and Stannis would have been able to send a raven to Winterfell informing them of the situation.
@@MrKILLINOOBZ Damn. That makes a lot of sense. Robb would’ve been with Stannis’ banner and maybe Bran or Rickon could’ve been betrothed to Shireen to solidify this Baratheon-Stark-Tully Army.
Whether or not hes "actually" a vampire, George has definitely associated him with the concept of "vampires". You could say the same for Starks and the idea of "werewolf"
Read Fever Dream
@@brandondennis5889 What's that?
No wonder they hate each other.
Stannis has a plannis! My favourite Stannism is "Taking a page from my brother's book. Not that Robert ever read any."
And I love Theon in Winterfell, too. Possibly my favourite part of the novel.
I will use "stannism" to indicate a great quote from now on.
@@sofia7126 Go for it!
Stannis the Goddamn Mannis is the true heir to the Iron Throne, and rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms.
AVE Stannis, wielder of Lightbringer
-A Roman legionary
As long as Stannis lives the war is not over
The fiery heart Stag will in Winterfell great hall
Hail Stannis! True King of the Seven Kingdoms.
All of this---¬^ makes me better realize that:
▪ GRR Martin is a truly amazing worldbuilder and storyteller
▪ Dumb & Dumber _should have_ had GOT _wrest_ from their incompetent(( yet also bafflingly arrogant ))hands by no-later-than Summer Solstice of 2016....
Imagine a Hosteen Frey POV chapter as he advances on Stannis and ends up like Lester from Fargo
TheJaviferrol falling through the ice? Lol
Or killing his wife and marrying a hot xhickc
Chilly Phil more likely the ice🤣🤣🤣 very fitting for a Frey🤣
Would be an awesome prologue. Great way to reveal what really happened in the battle.
It won't happen. We will see battle through POV of Asha Greyjoy
LET THERE BE ICE.... and blood...
Glad you're feeling better❤🤘
The blood of Flayers and Freys
Blood-stained Ice like Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.
*Avengers theme starts playing
@@Sam-ty7rj
1400 - 1500.
i think the fear of stannis more about his battlefield accumen than the magic thing. guy is a proven, brilliant battle tactician. just look at how he did the wildlings when he was 5 to 1 outnumbered, or how he took ashas stronghold using camouflage. hes no joke
He was outnumbered 20 to 1 ,even more impressive
Ppl focus on Ned’s honor. I think it was his love. Aemon said love was the death of honor, and Ned tried to hold to both. He failed at KL bc he didn’t want to see Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella harmed by Robert. His honor did play a part-Renly’s offer to take over was rejected. But the death of Elia’s children, bc Jon was also a Targaryen, had a big impact on his decisions going forward.
That said, Stannis is better at surviving than Ned. Dude ate rats. That is a hard, hard man. Something the northmen should respect, even if he isn’t one of them
YES. I've been waiting for this one. So much going on in and around Winterfell. IMO the Winterfell plot was a worse hack job by the show than the Dorne plot was. So much going on in the north that was NEVER depicted, and they instead replaced it with a straightforward Good Starks beat the Evil Boltons storyline.
The story goes that they made the Battle of The Bastards so complicated that they didn't have time to finish it, so the Northern lords never turned on the Boltons as they will in the book.
@@alanpennie8013 that's crap, it's simply a matter of practicalities. If the show had included every book plot then it would have been prohibitively expensive, it would have alienated more casual fans due to the slower pace and additional complexity, and it would never have been made as a result.
@@davidjones272 how on earth could the dorne plot not be worse? They didn’t even use anything that made sense (and there THEY HAD SOURCE MATERIAL!!!)
Ignored the entire Dorne plot by having Doran be weak, killing Myrcella instead of WANTING TO CROWN HER, destroying well written sand snakes, removing their involvement in essos, the jailing of the sand snakes, removing Arianne and just ultimately destroying a well written show.
I see your point though. They missed a chance for Bolton and co and the whole northern plot it’s hard for me to chose
@@factbeaglesarebest yeah, the show was just doomed from the moment they decided to change dany's qarth storyline really
Secret tunnel 🎶 Secret tunnel 🎶 Through Winterfell, secret secret secret tunnnneeeellllll yeah 🎶
6:53 The Rat Cook's crime wasn't feeding someone their own kin; it was killing someone sworn to his protection. Not sure if Wyman ever gave the Freys guest-right, but the pies were a clear slap in the face of the Freys and the Boltons and their betrayal of the Starks, although they seemed more worried about poison than why there were three missing Freys, three man-sized pies, and a song request for The Rat Cook's tale after the pies had been eaten.
I wonder why Roose even wanted the North?
He can't hope to hold it because almost every house in the North despises him for the Red Wedding.
What did he hope to accomplish?
What do you think about the possibility of Bolton defecting to the Others? If there's a Night King in the books, he could be it. He doesn't seem at all concerned with the possibility of Ramsay killing all of his children with Fat Walda. Maybe he just wants to hold out in Winterfell until the wall falls, then switch sides in exchange for immortality. It would be a good parallel to Euron in the south, whose goal appears to be some sort of blood-magic apotheosis.
@@isaacbruner65
Interesting thought. If there is some truth in the Bolt - On theory this may be it.
Though I don't think Roose will become the NK
I think Ramsay will murder him as in the show.
Well the Boltons have always been the 2nd most powerful House in the North and have had battles for supremacy with the Starks in the past.
And they also use their own crazy practices like the first night and flaying their enemies in secret.
I think they betrayed the Starks and took control of the North simply because of ambition and wanting no one to answer too for their crimes and atrocities.
I think no matter what he at least feels like he’s made his mark on history, being the man who helped rid the North of Stark dominion (or so he thinks)
Well you see Roose kinda forgot about Stannis the Mannis and even though he did forget about him, Stannis sure didn't.
But in all seriousness, Stannis' arrival and starting a campaign to take the north was probably a total surprise to him since Stannis was this far away threat for the Lannisters to deal with and he was banking on the Frey alliance who holds the Northerners in check, beating back the Ironborn and marrying fake Arya to Ramsay would be enough to consolidate his position, and he would have likely succeeded for a time if Stannis didn't come knocking on his door.
Mance Rayder says to Melisandre when planning to save fake Arya/Jeyne Poole at Winterfell that he has a ploy that he intends to try - I have never heard anyone talk about what this "ploy" may be, it could be related to knowledge of Winterfell, the passages, the cripts, hiding & sabotage, but my feeling is that Mance Rayder is using the glamour. That is how - in my view - he was able to write the Pink Letter - because he has observed Roose & Ramsay & he may well be glamouring one or both of them. He has Melisandre's ruby, she did not send him to Winterfell to save Arya, but to help Stannis win & to coax Jon Snow away from the Wall. Also, Mance, at Winterfell posing as Abel, in discussion with Theon comments on Ramsay coming after him & flaying him, nonchalantly dismisses this & reverses it saying if he's lucky he (Ramsay) won't fall in to his (Mance/Abel's) hands. Whoah! Where does this confidence come from? It is almost as if Mance Rayder knows that the Bolton's stand no chance whatsoever & that they will get off easy with a quick death. Bloody hell. When I read that, I was quite taken aback. Match that to Stannis' confidence & we have for quite a slaughter outside & in Winterfell I think. Theon could well be saved by Rickon actually turning up with Davos at an opportune moment, no doubt with an army of Skaggosi psychopaths, ready to kill all in their path.
Something just occurred to me whilst writing that comment, in the Pink Letter, when it says that he, Ramsay, has Mance Rayder in a cage for all the North to see - is that a coded message? Jon Snow knows that Rattleshirt was glamoured to appear as Mance, while Mance is glamoured to appear as Rattleshirt. Is Mance telling Jon that actually, it is Ramsay that is in a cage for all the North to see, but he has been glamoured as Mance? Whilst Mance is walking around pretending to be Ramsay? That would be kind of interesting, in a twisted way.
@@vorborinov4054
That's a great twist.
@@vorborinov4054 except Mel is at Winterfell. Mance is not able to do sorcery on his own. I thought the ploy was to get "Arya"out of Winterfell then I remembered that they believed her to be riding to the wall on a dying horse. Or so.. Mel tells Jon that. So the ploy has not yet been revealed, I don't know how I missed that. I think the ploy HAS to do with the pink letter now for sure.
I hope they reforge Oathkeeper and Widows Wail back into Ice. I really find it hard to take that Tywin has so little honor as to destroy Ice to begin with. Ice is not an ornamental sword.
It's simple, Tywin had tried to buy Valyrian swords from any impoverished house in the known Kingdom, his little brother literally tried to look for their ancestral sword in Valyria. I bet money on them looking for the Reyne sword during their uprising. Ilyn Payne put a Valyrian sword from an enemy house who at that point he knew was gonna die off. It was literally asking him to reforge it.
The frozen lake cracking in the middle of a battle is similar to a scene from Memory Sorrow & Thorn that GRRM has mentioned as one of his inspirations. So I definitely can see this happening.
In regards to the "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with leek [or weak, meek, etc]" thing; perhaps Ramsay repeatedly said that to Theon during his torture so that he would remember his name, and then it got burned into his memory. Because if memory serves, I'm fairly certain that whenever he says that chant it's after he says something like "You have to remember your name!" or something.
Also maybe the reason Bran is gonna save Theon is so that he will go on to be King of the Iron Islands and stop Euron. Because I have a feeling that Euron is gonna be a big deal
About Theon making it to the end of the series, I think there's some foreshadowing about it. Tristifer Botley says to Asha that one of the old kings in the Iron Islands had won the crown in a Kingsmoot, but he fucked up so bad that the ironborn found a loophole to remove him, as one captain wasn't in the place when they voted for that king, so he was available for being elected king of the islands.
Theon was a captive when the Kingsmoot happened, so they could use that same loophole to replace Euron as he'll probably sacrifice a lot of ironborn in his blood ritual in the South. Don't know if he'll survive until the end, but King Theon has been foreshadowed, IMO.
I think it'll be Asha (as in the show) but yep you're right.
Stannis the Mannis is definitely my favourite character, can't wait to see what George has laid out for him
Have you read Theon's chapter of winds of winter? Incredible.
Mine too, second favorite's Jaime Lannister
@@legrandliseurtri7495 my friend I come from the show and had never read the books though interested maybe soon. May I ask isn't winds of winter not yet publish
@@kevinmasalangoy5028 Yes, but some chapters have been released over the years.
@Gooby yes I've heard that in the books stanis is doing what jon snow is doing in the show gathering an army for the others. I think that is better because then the red priest's thought of stannis being azor ahai is kinda reasonable instead of in the show
Theon is kind of the Sméagol/Gollum of ASOIAF, so I can’t help thinking he will be critical in a “sing, sorrow sorrow, but good win out in the end” kind of way, that may or may not have a lot to do with his personal struggle for his own identity leading him to a sacrifice that may not have been exactly what he meant to do, but which contributes significantly to saving the world from existential doom. If that makes any sense.
Sure does. Theon is definitely na Smeagol type, good call
@@DavidLightbringer
Both suffer from dissociative identity disorder, though for different reasons (or not if Theon is actually haunted by the fear that he murdered his son.)
So, I was just rereading A Game of Thrones and when we're first introduced to the Twins, everyone starts talking about how to take the castles. I think it's going to fall to Littlefinger. Also, something that I noticed the other day, was family reputations are generally unchanging throughout the years, with few exceptions, the Starks are honourable, Brandon the bad is an exception, the Lannisters with green eyes and golden hair, Tyrion, the Iron Born are vikings, Euron , the Manderlies are fat, the Freys are chinless weasels. Some have longer necks. Whoever takes over the twins will probably be better than the Freys, and they'll probably stay that way. I don't think the Twins will ever fall, just the rulers.
I think the reputations hardly change because the history of westeros is actually very short in reality. I think they live, like our ancestors in the middle ages, in a magic, mythological time. All the talk of the 8thousands years is nonsense. The houses are barely a few hundreds years old, no more. The past is they recount, and on which they base their present, is a magical mythological past, not a real one. Otherwise how to explain the lack of progress? Keep in mind that the world of westeros is much more advanced on the scientific method than even the Italian renaissance was, and in their stories they have been, supposedly, at this stage for thousands of years. And yet there has been very little progress. I think it's because the history they tell is actually mythology. There was not a "house lannister" a thousand years before, or arryn etc. It's like the histories in our middle ages in which charlemagne had counts under him who gave the feudal homage (which in the 8th century didn't exist) and so on.
@@omgjimmyboy That bothered me too for a while. I might of course be wrong, after all Martin writes fiction so anything is possible. But so far the mythological history-magic reality solution is the only one that makes sense. I had a conversation on that subject with an excellent prof of mine in college when I was raking my brains trying to understand how serious and intelligent people in the past could even for a second believe silly crap (silly to my modern post illuminism rationality) like bestiaries, spells, kings who were sons of dragons, emperors who turned to gods after death etc etc. The answer was of course that they had a very different concept of what reality, truth and time were, just like in westeros. doesn't matter if westeros is a post apocaliptic society or a genuinely medieval-fantasy one its anyway a pre-industrial pre-rational one, just on the cusp of discovering (or rediscovering) the scientific method. Of course a form of magic in this world does exist so it complicates things, but not by that much as it seems to be a mechanical rule bound magic, not harry potter style, so it can be included in a rational landscape (after all what's more magic that nuclear phisics or quantum theory? Not to mention stuff like TV and a bunch of metal and plastic that beats kasparov at chess...).
The twins will fall from the inside when Walder likely dies in the next book and the Freys start killing each other.
In the quote where Theon describes Crowfood tricking the Freys he says, "more's the pity" which is a great pun for "Mors the pity."
Also, more greaty symbolism/word play in the quote about the lake being like cheese. Ned Woods says they've been on it like "maggots on a corpse" implying that the ice is a decaying body---it's rotten. And several times we have "dancing/walking on rotten ice" as a metaphor akin to walking on thin ice. I like "dancing on thin ice" because dancing is fighting so they're going to be fighting on rotten ice...and fall through.
Oh hey now great catch! Yeah corpse-ice isn't a good thing if you're dancing or fighting
Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!
One doesn't want to be greedy but........what are we going to do when this series is over LmL and Quinn? The series is so thrilling guys and the production value is off the charts. Time to go work for Disney. A BIG THANK YOU
I think Martin told the show runners about Stannis and his ice lake plan. I think the very awful Beyond The Wall episode of the show, and the scene where the wights fall through the ice is inspired by what he told them
Hell yeah!
All I'm doing during lockdown is smoking weed, reading the books again, playing video games and waiting for these videos to show up!
Thanks for the top tier content, LmL & Quinn :)
César Landaeta haha same
Good weed is certainly a requisite.
literally same, plus rewatching lotr
Your immerisng yourself completely
All hail the lockdown! I 🧊🔥🧊🔥🧊😂
Theon as Grey King. Brilliant.
And gazing into the abyss is actually a Friedrich Nietzsche original. Lovecraft stole it from him.
I'm fascinated by Rickon's plot line i hope they call him the Black Wolf.
My overarching belief is that the hooded man is Hallis Mollen. Even so, this video has me hoping that it could be Benjen Stark, and that Benjen will save/help Mance Rayder escape (through the crypts and wormways). Which is ironic given their historic enmity as First Ranger and King Beyond the Wall. I just love that prospect.
Lastly, why doesn't Theon just ask to take the Black? A reunion with a resurrected Jon would be quite interesting.
Taking the vow of celibacy seems to be the most challenging of the Night's Watch. Shouldnt be an issue for Theon tho!😳
I think Theon taking the black would be an interesting challenge for Jon. Would Jon remember everything is forgiven? I don't know if he could given everything Theon did. That would make an interesting chapter. I hope Jon would atleast give him a nice left hook.
@@ampople Right? I'm thinking SOMEONE has to go to the wall and reunite with Jon, and it'll be someone he doesn't necessarily like. I think in the original story outline, George had Catelyn Stark fleeing to the Wall seeking asylum w/Jon but scrapped the idea. It's possible he could just use another character that would fit better. I think, as you said, it would be a great test for Jon, so George probably will use someone else. Theon would be interesting because Jon never liked him from the beginning, and because Jon knows Bran isn't dead due to their dream communication. So while he still has reason to hate Theon, it won't be as bad as we might expect.
@@ashleyofnaath Jon would be nice enough to give Cat asylum too. I wonder who is going to be the one that visits Jon.
@@ashleyofnaath j The dream means nothing jon has wolf dreams sure but he doesnt seem to know hes warging he thinks they are just dreams and wait wait for it..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
. jon knows nothing.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the two of you are THE BEST content creators for absolutely anything related to ASOIAF
the writer is either Mance or Stannis himself, who is planning to fake his death. I really don't think it was Ramsay. Which is funny. The least likely person to have written the letter is the one the letter is naming
edit: clarification
I agree. I am partial to the idea that Stannis wrote it with the help of Theon and worded it precisely to draw Jon out. Theon would know best how to sound like Ramsay and Stannis would know best how to tempt Jon given that he'd already tried to tempt Jon and failed. He likely learned from those mistakes and found a way to appeal to Jon that he knew Jon wouldn't dismiss out of hand. It feels less likely to me that Mance would know how to manipulate Jon at the same level.
I find the clydas/Bowen marsh theory compelling as mance. Stannis....nah. but maaaaaybe.
@@post-leftluddite
This is likely. Though I wouldn't rule out wackier theories.
I certainly don't believe Stannis wrote the letter.
Ramsay wrote it after being defeated and nearly being killed by Stannis. The letter is exacly his style. Who else would refer to Theon as Reek?
So many people have been complaining that GoT isn't worth rewatching...I just tell them to watch you guys.
now there's a true friend :)
We all know it is. Even the ones stubborn and heartbroken on how it all ended
Stannis with a plannis
The Manderly wave is totally going to press the Frey wave into the 'Swiss Cheese' icy lake.
Roose is straight up the scariest character in ASOIAF to me. Like, Euron is terrifying and unhinged but Roose with his silver eyes and vampire skin and his cold calculation, I would WITHER if he even laid eyes on me.
I can’t take him seriously when he’s got those antlers on
At first I thought Wyman Manderly was so boring and then I started to see him as this funny, smart, troll and came to love him.
Also... very guilty of actually skipping some whole Reek passages because they made me so uncomfortable. Very different than the way it was portrayed in the show. Hard to watch, yes, but the book is disturbing on another level. A deeper level.
Gooby lollllll man thanks for that (🙄). I did end up reading those parts. I’ve read the books 3 times.
@@applewagon253
I entirely understand.
In the first two books Theon was such a dick the reader actually wanted to see him punished
Reek arouses such mixed emotions.
Redemption through mutilation seems to be GRRM's way.
@Gooby Except Bran. Bran is never relevant. The very few times he contributes you can guess what happened from other pov.
Does this mean Quinn is feeling better? Hope so. Thanks for keeping us so we'll entertained during this crazy time.
The only time Roose Bolton was fooled was at Harrenhall when it came to Arya Stark. Roose Bolton was aware of Arya's gender but not to who she is.
Roose in the books is far more dangerous. Roose is a strategist but he is nothing compared Stannis.
Jeyne Poole will become the next Arya Stark or a new one. Of course it has to do that Jeyne Poole might suffer literal death not just a metaphorical one.
Stannis will win but an empirical victory and he will lose bunch people. The Starks will return to Winterfell. Stannis will try to marry Shireen to Rickon uniting the North under the banner. Shireen will not survive because of Greyscale and her body will be burned.
I think you meant pyrrhic victory not empirical. Pyrrhic means the victory comes at great cost. Named after the Greek General Pyrrhus who fought the Romans, was losing badly then introduced elephants which terrified the Romans who ran away giving the victory to Pyrrhus who nevertheless had lost way more men. Afterwards he claimed "another victory like this and we shall be completely ruined." Empiricism on the other hand means to gain knowledge by experience.
Shireen doesn't have greyscale. not anymore. her greyscale was cured
@@ahtinen4004 her grey scale may be dormant. The wildlings think it so.
This is the video that introduced both of you guys to me and gosh darn it I haven’t slowed down since, thank you both so much for damn near endless entertaining/intelligent content
The Battle of Ice is probably the battle that I'm looking forward to most in the next book followed by the Battle of Blood. I can't wait to see what happens. Also want to know what happens to my main man Wyman Manderly after what happened to him last time we saw him.
You're spoiling us with all this content !
prediction: At the tower of joy, howland reed is taken over by skinchanging time traveler Bran to do a dishonorable thing in order to kill Dayne thus saving Ned. explains more the estranged relationship between ned and howland since the war - and why/how he sent the kids to Bran when he heard chained wolf dream.
Ohh~! I've never heard anyone mention that maybe Ned would *resent* Howland for the method with which his life was saved!! Pretty cool! It *is* in character 👍
Huge Stan fan. He is absolutely going to have to fake out Ramsay cause even if he does win the Battle of Ice (which seems probable) he will need to figure out a way to get Ramsay to open the gates. The Manderly's will be key to this.
Before when i found out that Mors had deagonglass in his head,i tought to myself that he could use it to headbutt an other to death.
That is low-key genious thinking. And I'm not being ironic.
Great as always. In his voice you can hear how much Quinn is diggin this topic. Never saw the weirwood symbolism with Theon becoming an instrument for them...that's very interesting.
I really feel like there's an alternate SpongeBob theme with the Manderlies and the Frey Pies.
🎶 _Who lives at the bottom of the pie?_
_RHAEGAR FREY!_
_Something something about being a fat sponge._
_Uh, pine forest, apple cider, I'm out of ideas._
_WYMAN MANDERLY!_🎶
Roose burning the book in Harrenhall is something I’d like to know more about
Come on guys they aren't gong to sacrifice Theon, they're going to do the old Mance/Rattleshirt switcheroo only this time they don't need a glamour, they have someone that looks like Theon, an old looking frail white haired man.. Arnolf Karstark, and doing it across from the island with lightbringer will mean it's impossible to pick out the face
Murray looks like you’re a Preston fan mur-ray.
@@dustinsmith2021
Was that a Preston theory?
Pretty sure he's right then.
Theon is going to be around for a while longer.
Alan Pennie watch his prepping for winter Series. It’s in the Theon sample chapter.
It’s not a coincidence that Mors Umber is wearing a white bear pelt with dragon glass eye makes you think of blood raven (white dragon)
I had a smile on my face the whole time watching you guys. You're excitement and passion for the story is so fun! Thank you! Another great vid!
I just noticed this - thank you for including credits for the artworks you use! Not many ppl do this.
This series is also incredible and has gotten me hyped up again for twow. Even though i wasnt that invested in the tv show, it definitely soured me a bit. But there's so much left to learn in the books, it's time to get back into asoiaf!
Mance Rayder likely wrote the letter, it spents way too much time talking about the wildlings and he has a motive to lure troops from the Wall to Winterfell, plus unlike with Ramsay we know that he knew the things mentioned in the letter
Max Mustermann
Unless he tortured Mance and got the info but who knows!!
@@daylnroegner6744 Yeah I am not saying there is no way for Ramsay to learn, but the fact that Mance knows it and Ramsay has to learn it through Mance and both could have sent the letter means the evidence points stronger towards Mance
@@daylnroegner6744
I'm inclined to think so.
Or perhaps Mance didn't need to be tortured. He willingly collaborated, having realised the letter would damage Ramsay.
Manderly became one of my favourite secondary characters after his exploits in dance and his "summer's farce "speech sealed the deal, thank the gods for that 4th chin lol
10:38 “aunt Pol! Git ovah ‘ere and have a yahself a whiskey”
This has quickly became one of my favorite series on UA-cam. Love the chemistry and how you have slightly different theories
Everyone of these episodes becomes my new favorite. Now I need to read the whole thing again! If you guys had your own narrations I would buy them :). I am sure you know it by now but what an excellent service to others these briadcasts are. Thank you both.
Quinn has recorded the Forsaken on his channel, and I've been considering recording the other chapters as well
"We hold the ground"
"Which ground?"
"Exactly"
9:31 the way you read that is how I imagine roose, very calm and never raising his voice yet he is still assertive
YES.
this was wonderful to watch. being reminded of ALL that's yet to come in the books is really dope.
thank you!
Thank you for pointing out how Manderly's avoided the wrath of the gods. I didn't know about the gift thing.
Man I was waiting for this one, made my day !
Yo you guys are killin it with these videos. Loving these deep dives!
David this is an amazing duo. Two of my most favorite intellectuals. Awesome video. Great content and perspectives. Totally agree with all of you all’s conversations. Hope y’all are both doing well.
Stannis using the freezing hundreds of fighters to death to gain a military victory would be some serious symbolic Night King action too. However - fire (the lamp) is integral to his plan too... Symbolic balance, in that sense?
The last time we saw Mance in a cage, most people who witnessed what happened were wrong - and Mance is in a cage again.
Establishing Theon as this straddling the boundary type, torn figure is so great. I wonder - would acceptance in to the Weirwood network (and by extension, the reaching of a paramount goal of the culture of the North, which gave him a home) be Theon's ultimate peace? Seems like the best possible outcome for him.
great thoughts Evan! It does seem like Theon is becoming some kind of instrument of the Old gods, can't wait to see where that goes. And yeah I just know we haven't seen the last of Mance. No way. He's too great of a character
Great stuff , this whole Battle of Ice is going to be some really good reading. So many moving parts , going to be interesting to see how everything fits together and plays out. With this impending battle , The Freys and Manderlys seem a powder keg ready to blow , a Manderly defection seems very likely in the near future which will likely be followed by other northern Houses who are likely already covertly plotting and moving against the Boltons. The actual semantics of the battle will be very interesting with ice lakes , nearly impassable terrain and potential decoys / traps as discussed.
Mance surely has a part to play , I do not believe he is trapped or dead or that Ramsay wrote the pink letter , Mance's arc just seems to have more to run and he will likely employ further trickery in this conflict . Mance could yet fill a Joramun role against the Others , on top of the Bael the Bard vibes we are getting with his more recent narrative role , Mance's arc for me likely has further to go and does not end here imo. Of course I also do not believe Stannis is dead or defeated per the pink letter , so I look forward to likely seeing him in command in a very difficult situation or at least hatch some sort of plan which likely will include some type of deception. Overall , this is going to be some complex, intricate well thought out moving parts with this battle / the resolution & its aftermath of which will come from some equally excellent well thought out writing from GRRM. Eagerly anticipating to read exactly how this conflict / battle and all the goings on in and and around it play out.
This video series is awesome! Thanks guys!
As always, these take me forever to watch because I get so distracted gazing at the amazing art that I keep having to rewind all the time to make sure I hear all the great words as well. This series is top-notch, four-star entertainment. Thank you bunches!
If you’re ever looking for a book recommendation the Perion chronicles is a very good book series that isn’t afraid to kill characters for the sake of the story and the ending to book three is extremely satisfying
Regarding the hidden passages in Winterfell don’t forget that Maester Luhan tells Theon that the Kings of Winter prepared ways to escape a siege, that there were hidden ways out of the castle. Remember he says this when he is trying to convince Theon to join the Knights Watch.
Video definitely got me more pumped for theon's chapters. Thanks for the great video!
you guys are on fire, what a great video. Thanks
Reading Dance and suddenly realizing Reek was Theon, is one of the best moments i have had reading this or any series/book.
I remember that too!! Really freaking chilling as the realization creeps up. So well written... Martin honesty loves to write horror
Gotta say this is the best video u guys have done so far I know it's old bit goddamn listening to u guys read along and speak on this subject makes me itch even more for twow lol great video guys and the fall of the freys video don't know which one I like better
Thank you so much. These are phenomenal.
The northern plot and the mereenese knot are my two most anticipated plot lines. Just so many possibilities it’s impossible to puzzle out for sure. I’ve been waiting for you guys to cover this. Great job as usual!
Thanks guys.
I’m rooting for Stannis. I’m so ready for everything that’s going to happen in Winds. It’s going to be A LOT.
“We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.” - Patchface
Patch face is a follower of the great other since the drowned god is an agent of him , I think euron will bring apocalypse with his lovecraftian ritual and after sacrificing the iron born the dead bodies will rise from the sea as whites
There’s an episode of Vikings where Ragnar fakes his death and enters the city walls in a casket, only to burst out and take the city from within. I can kinda see Stannis doing something similar in Winterfell.
You guys do such a great job! Love this channel it's exactly what us song of ice and fire fans needed.
I strongly agree with not writing torture porn, or any porn. I get why Martin incorporates all things that happen in the span of a chapter, but he has the rare ability to put all the right other elements in place for that content not to come across as gratuitious. I think it's best for more authors to opt out of the details of the more graphic actions and instead focus on the emotional and psychological fallout, or impetus for extreme actions.
Yep, definitely wanted to harp on that for a sec, it's such a stark contrast to what we saw on the show
@@DavidLightbringer Would you say it's a "stark" contrast?😝
Yeah, whrite the gruesome stuff where it is needed, enough to set of what is happening, but realy that should be it. Imagination is the scariest thing ever and clubbing people over the head just desensetises and actualy turns boring while it at the same time realy realy is unhealthy.
Been waiting for this all morning lol
Love your videos guys, so glad too have yall almost daily vids 😄😄
Thanks for the this series needed something asoiaf to watch during the quarantine