He's right, most cyclists are just in it for the lifestyle/aesthetics and cafe rides, they have no idea what it means to suffer through a hard workout.
@@tristanm8250 actually he is wrong . Let me explain. It doesn't get easier you just get faster. So , Just because someone is putting out more wattage and is going at a faster speed doesn't mean the effort is harder. Someone can be at their Max heart rate pushing as hard as they can and can only do It at 170 w. And others can do way more but the effort Is the same. The effort will always stay the same till you reach a point where you're doing a much higher amount of wattage and speed. So what have we learned here today? That I'm always right 😐
IMO trailbraking is extremely effective, safe and the fastest way through corners. Yes, you do most of your braking before the corner but you don't just lift your levers before turn. You trail it off until you are at the speed you can take the corner at. On decreasing radius corners, you can actually trail brakes even past the apex. In more flowing, less technical, increasing radius corners, you can let off brakes even before apex. In a perfectly round, even corner where the curve of entry matches exit, you pretty much brake until you apex then slowly release.
Thanks for the entertainment boys- made the hospital 🚑stay a little easier. Cleaned up by a ute with a bulbar today who didn’t give way on a round about. Knees busted up and my new Rm01 BMC is a write off. But was very lucky considering. Anyway, these are always a pleasure to listen to, thank you. 🙏
I raced the US Gran Fondo National Championship on a full kit Trek Emonda this past Sunday. I smashed BOTH my Bontrager Aeolus Pro 51 wheels on pothole the Thursday before the race. I was able to go to a Trek corporate dealership, show my wheels, and they just gave me the pair of wheels ($2000), swapped over all my gearing and disc brakes, checked over the bike, tuned the shifting, all for free that Thursday and I didn't even miss my pre-ride. That's what you're paying $10k more for (my bike is actually $8000 USD so not even that). I would've missed my National Championship race without it or have been on shitty alloy wheels that I found in some cheap secondhand shop somewhere. In fairness, in the US you can't swing a cat without hitting a Trek or Specialized dealership, and those are basically the only two brands with this type of universal accessibility within the US, but it's still worth it (plus Project One is fantastic).
well , if you paying double , you could buy two bikes for that price , then problem solved, have your wife ride roll up with the spare bike if you need a bike change.
That may work for a top athlete at national level, do you think the average Joe going on sunday rides would get the same treatment ? I'm pretty sure I would have no such luck at my local trek dealer, although I like and ride trek bikes.
The technique talk at the end was super interesting and I think this would be an excellent segment going forward. You could talk about how to climb better next or sprinting 🤝😊
I think I’m with Jesse on the descending. On your weekend ride, crossing the white lines is dangerous for you and others following you. When your on closed roads, cut loose. Also, everyone should descend in the drops. If you hit a bump at speed you’re less likely to lose grip on the bars than if you’re on the hoods.
Interesting descending discussion. I'm a top 1% descender in the Bay Area, with a number of road KOMs. Predictably, I have an MTB background, and also grew up on motorcycles. Half of the benefit is comfort with sliding, but the other half is comfort with quickly timing inputs to the course. When you do an Enduro or DH descent, it's like a game of GuitarHero where you need to time your dance perfectly with the track in order to stay on your bike and on your line.
One of the best episodes yet! Would love to see the both of you build up the same all out aero china build, something like the Bigrock Aero or Dare Aero and see a comparison bs the S5, Tavelo and if there are any differences in how you each describe the bikes.
Have basically given up travelling with disc brakes. Way too much hassle - spongey brakes, no brakes, bent rotors, realigning calipers etc. it’s the reason why I have purchased a second hand SW Tarmac rim brake bike. So much easier and great to ride after being on disc for the last 6 years
If you can handle the long drive, there’s a lot to be said for hiring a Winnebago style campervan to make the road trip. Tons of storage space, accommodation sorted, bikes fit in the back (or mount a rack on the rear), food easily cooked in the camper, park it within a close distance to the event, no airfares, no accommodation fees, no hire car fees, no bike mechanic (hopefully 🙏) needed, lots of positives……..and there’s the priceless memories of a road trip. Split the cost and share with a buddy……it’d be interesting how it works out $$$-wise vs flying. Food for thought.
It’s a great call, my main issue is parking around where I live. It’s a very inner city area, and having that parked on the street for months at an end wouldn’t be ideal
@@ChrisMillerCycling i meant just hiring one for the event….get a mate to go halves and pick the Winnebago up locally from a rental place, use it for the event, and then drop it back in the Mo day or Tuesday after 👍😀
In the US, a competitive Gran Fondo has timed segments that are all tabulated and the lowest times across the segments gives you the winner. The segments conclude before the actual end of the course. Smash the segments, chill in between. Is it not like this in all other countries? If it’s just fastest across the entire course, what really differentiates it from a road race…?
The UCI gran fondo qualifier in the US (Alabama) is not segmented. It's 100 miles, 10k feet climbing. There are still sprint finishes but in smaller groups.
Not sure I love the "timed segments" solution. Feels like it might just turns into a giant strava segment ride, without all the other elements if a bike race. That said, don't knock it until you have tried it, so maybe I should try one.
No sign of KOMs this year in Amy's online results, that was a segment previously. As was a Saturday gravel 'ride' and a Saturday hillclimb up the street next to the pub; that was a blast up 22% over 110m length.
This is not true for all Gran Fondos in the U.S. that’s just Suarez organized events I believe. GFNY events are timed for the full course. GFNY is UCI sanctioned and includes pro teams, so I assume it includes UCI qualifier points
You both mentioned the difficulty of finding larger chainring sizes to suit Amy's course. Would an additional inefficiency of your highest gear only, whilst perhaps adding chainline efficiencies elsewhere ( just why do they use 62T rings in TTs?), influence you both to reconsidering an XDR rear hub to allow the 10t to only be used on downhills? Reserve wheelsets oughta have an XDR option, surely. Jesse, are your rims as wide as the frame/fork can accept, there maybe a reason for an even more focused Chinese wheelset build. My rimbrake Cervelo allows for 28mm widths, so my rims are 28mm wide, allowing 21mmID. These can wear 23 & 25 for the rule of 105, or 28 & 30 with no 105 rule. The Velocity Quill wheel sets for both my training and endurance rides also offer 21mmID but much less OD for the Cervelo RS but day to day wheel swaps if needed (4-seasons vs GP5000s, & for flats). Velocity also has a 23mmID disc only rim for those looking to go wider on a budget. Tyre width advantages aren't all about aero. We were riding 'forever' with unaero wheel/tyre sets before Josh P, Zipp, Cervelo & Roubaix aligned in the mid naughties to actually test. Any thoughts on doing your own Chung Method aero tresting to confirm your optimisations? Wheels may not offer the aero savings alone without integration with framesets but what about for gearing options and tyre 105 ruling? Seems this could open up Shimano's top-end gearing as each rear cost step is roughly 4 teeth at the front. Perhaps you could both have a Sheldon Browne Gear Calculator cast as Gain ratios actually quantify how tyre size and gearing choices relate cogs and cranks lengths too. Maybe Jesse would carry around his inner chainring & front derailleur for more than just the 1 time on that 16% pinch after Forest, too! Thinking outside the square? As a 17yo building my first serious road bike before 6 spd freewheels, there were few options for a hack to select from, 13-17, 13-21 with 52/42 or 52/39 or so. A Teledyne Titan priced at $2400 with Campy Record in my local bike ship wore 60/47T Suginos. On my budget I selected TA 60/46 rings and a custom DA 1st gen 13-28t freewheel. That worked for me for 18 years whilst moving onto 13-30t 7spd before it was stolen. It seems to me that all too often gearing selection for a course is overlooked. Who carries around gears that they won't use anyway, seriously? If you don't discuss gearing choices in your journeys to win rainbow jerseys I think you are both stuck in thinking like one bike can do it all. So many finetuning/MG discussions oughta be on the tabletop now. Discard any at your own peril; like Silca's thin bartape for better CdA? I may never win anything but I still want my equipment to never hold back my speed anywhere. Shouldn't one's equipment work even harder than the athlete. No stones unturned, please guys! Start at the basics to confirm every selection in each area is optimized, you'll be doing this with your training. Before Amy's you both agreed, 'no aero-helments'. I'm guessing '25 will be an aero helmets race, now! I'm especially looking forward to your Amy's 102 cast when that happens. 12 months looks like a good timeframe to plan and adapt to any subtle, or not so, changes afterall.
Congrats guys! Your show got me through all my indoor training session🎉 On the Tavelo naming, “Ta”(踏）means pedaling, and “velo” (为乐） sounds like “is fun”. So it is basically “pedaling is fun”. It is quite straightforward and nice for a Chinese speaker😂
Great content guys. Raced in Whistler GF couple weeks ago. Self selected start corrals based on estimated time of completion regardless of age category, works well with no real bottleneck issues
Amy’s is a great course though (despite your take on the finish), It’s got beautiful climbs through the forest, and a stunning rolling segment along the coast.
My biggest issue was the front of 50-54 was the fastest bunch in the large group I was in. We had the front of 45-49 with us, and plenty of younger groups that had been dropped. We were contesting the win. Yet the 18-30yo’s were chopping wheels and swamping the front to position even though they’d been dropped and their race was over. They made it super dangerous. Lots of zwift heroes with little race experience. I got hit from behind, handlebars knocked and wheel chopped about 20 times in the final 30kms. Sketchy as.
The risk chat, I think it’s difficult to view someone else’s actions through your own lease as far as risk goes. One person descending or doing a skill that is well without their comfort range may be on the limit for another person. Also with risk often those that are more risk averse tend to overestimate the actual risk. Perceived risk may be higher than the actual risk, whether that is because of some bias or negative experience or fear of something out of your control happening. Cycling is such a dynamic sport that those with much higher skill levels can deal with even unexpected obstacles much better than another with a skill deficiency. The more you work on your skills the more you’ll be able to achieve. But at a certain point the risk/reward relationship may mean the risk of injury or loss is outweighed by any reward or enjoyment and if that’s the case pull it back to a risk you’re prepared to take.
Congrats on the qualification lads. Agree with the finish, there's a nice climb just opposite the caravan park that could have made for an awesome finish. Alot of peeps were warming up on it before the race. Granted I live in Melbourne but missed the boat on getting accommodation (was a relatively late sign up) -- so drove down in the am. Certainly made things cheaper but getting up at 2am wasn't fun
Route was good. Race or want to race, it's up to the individual and whether you decide to be in the age section or recreational. My bug bear is the event village. Missed opportunity. The vibe is frothy after people finish and centralizing that into a corral keeps things pumping and people can cross pollinate. If they want the businesses to thrive, tell them to set up stalls in the event village. One event that does this well is Beechworth granite classic.
Congrats fellas on 100 episodes! Fyi, prior to Fondo Worlds in Perth 2016 they held qualifying age group "races" on said course with pro teams, ams etc. It was not something piggybacking a Fondo event like Amy GF. Keep up the great work!
I like the fact that GFs are all varied, so what if some end in a bunch sprint? There's plenty in the alps and other places that are climbing specials. I do agree the parkour and the finish need to adjust to the type of finish expected for safety.
Congrats on the results! Shimano does make a 55T 11spd chainring available to the public and not a team edition, which I run on my 12spd Shimano group. Agree very hard to get though. There are a decent amount of brands that have large chainrings 56T+ (Rotor, Miche, Carbon TI) but maybe those might be hard to get in AUS and probably aren’t as smooth. Checkout the elevation profiles of the gran fondos in the UAE…at least you have some climbs but they do the best they can given the terrain. There are start pens - one is an elite group that requires a UCI license and then speed groupings that are self selected. Still get a massive peloton with varied abilities and a sprint at the end…definitely agree need climbs to make it selective, safe, and fun
I fly with my bike around 4 times a year. You don’t need to top up brakes after you fly. The best way is to build the bike up, tape/tie the brake levers fully closed and hang your bike vertical with the levers as the highest point. By morning you’ll have normal brakes
Had the same brake problem when I drove to Italy from the England. And that was without even going on a plane. Apperently a very common problem with the 12 speed
as a someone who used to ride heaps of dh and enduro, i have now started racing crits and doing most of my riding on the road, i think that descending is so overlooked by most cyclists. for me its a natural thing that i have learned over years of mtb, i am comfortable finding the very edge of a tyres grip through slower (35kph or less) corners on the road but the conseqences at high speeds arent worth the risk on the road so i tend to back off a little
Really good breakdown the pros and cons of the GF. I hope the organisers take on board the potential improvements they can make to the GF in preparation for the worlds. Those speed bumps af the finish line are deadly and must go!
Hard mass start races with hard courses are great. We have one in my home town which is 5km flat then immediately goes into a hard undulating Cat2 which starts with a 13% uphill sprint until the lactate kicks in. Everyone gets sieved into w/kg. No way you can fake it. You get to the flat bit(before the next climbs) and there are minutes between bunches which makes everything so much safer as everyone's pretty much at the same level.
Loved the fondo breakdown. Jesse, I lost 2 bottles 15 minutes into a 4 hour gravel race. I got 2 bottles at mile 50, best water I ever had (I still had sugar flasks, but it was hot out).
Yeah Jesse, that full width access on close roads for racing is awesome. Another access perk of racing, gravel events that cross private property which is otherwise closed the rest of the year.
Did you mention counter steering in your descending article? It's why Pidcock is so good. I like that you addressed the "look where you want to go". And descend on the drops. Totally agree with Jesse about not taking risks on descents.
I rate the idea of finishing up a climb in Lorne. I was in that big peloton Chris was in, got hit by a nervous rider in the group, he bumped my chain off, lost 20 seconds getting it back on right before the forrest climb, did my all time best 5 minute effort and 1 hour effort (310 watts) trying to get back to the group, closed it a bit up the forrest climb, but once I hit the Great Ocean Road there was no way i was gonna catch them, missed out on qualifying by 4 places. regardless good fun, its just a gran fondo but woulda been nice to qualify in my hometown.
I would disagree with the leaning the bike and bit the rider. I’ve ridden motorbikes mountain bikes and road bikes. Mountain biking is a case of leaning the bike to get the side knobs to dig in. On the motorbike and the road bike your goal is to keep the bike as upright as possible to increase your contact patch or to keep the fatter part of the tire in contact with the road. Drop your head and try kiss your inside hood. The analogy on the motorbike was try kiss your mirror. Inside knee out, outside foot down. If you enter with too much speed then definitely stand the bike up before braking. But dragging some rear brake or trail braking the rear can help sharpen the turn up. This does however require time/skill to learn to modulate the braking properly.
Motorcycle corning can help to a point, but on a more powerful motorcycle you are trying to enter far deeper so you flatten the exit. This is to allow you to stand the bike up earlier to get the power on. On a road push bike it is all about trying to smooth the radius out as much as possible and maintain highest possible exit speed. The advantage of late braking is lost a bit unless it is a low-speed corner you are trying to pedal hard out of. Pidcock probably the best of the best almost runs a MX style, body out bike down, with all his weight on the outside leg. It is very subtle but he head sits on the outside line of the stem and top tube using his inside knee to counter balance and hold the bike a little more upright. ua-cam.com/video/99wJn5QBvyg/v-deo.html
re travel to and from the race, it sounds like Australia really needs a good high speed and regional rail system. Imagine how much nicer it'd be to bring the bikes on the train and zooming out and back. no airport security and sardine feeling, just lovely train zoomies
@ChrisMillerCycling that's sad. In the US, we're finally starting to maybe get true high-speed rail in a few areas. I fortunately live on the Northeast Corridor where we have great regional rail, but it's way too heavily populated to truly be high speed. Fun fact I learned recently: more people live in the corridor from the DC metro area to the Boston metro area than in the entire state of California
If any political party had the balls to properly tax mining and gas companies instead of taking donations from them, we’d be able to build high speed rail tomorrow
You're talking about a continent the size of the USA, with less than 10% the population. Sounds fantastic on paper, but is there a market for it? In Victoria, where this Gran Fondo was held, building a local suburban railway line addition and staffing it for 5 years has blown out to $216B. That's 90km of railway. 55 miles. That's 3.9B per mile. Obviously we have economies of scale and clear land for a high speed rail system, but the costs based on Victoria's experience (or is it debacle) of building rail way line should show the likelihood of a successful high speed rail project. FWIW it's ~900km from Paramatta NSW to Melbourne, Victoria.
@@aarondcmedia9585 Building a metro-based train system is considerably more complex and expensive compared to a regional train line. So the cost/km is pretty irrelevant here. Yes there would be a market for sure. Especially if it made stops at major regional centres that don’t have large airports.
Saw you in Lorne, was about to say that I love the podcast but the words didn't come out, well, love the podcast! Regarding the AGF course, take your point from an elite level, but the end is tough enough for recs and age gr non qualifiers. They need to be inclusive to keep the event going, so on balance I think you should lose out. A good way maybe is by having a first wave of elites or previous qualifiers regardless of age group.
Here in Korea, all riders select their group when they register for fondos. Typically it is a, b, and c. The registration page typically explains the groups by average speed and expected finish time. The race numbers have different colors based on your group. When it comes to the start line, some of the events are better at staggering the starts by groups. I had just assumed fondos around the world were like this. I guess not.
@@ChrisMillerCycling there is always a podium - one for women and one for men. Just not by age group. So sadly, chris, for old guys like us, no podium spots. Generally you receive an sms within moments of crossing the finish that with a link to real time results and photos. You will know your results, including by age group and gender, overall and the KOM segments. Assuming you put your number where it should go on the bike (and sacrifice aerodynamics) your photos from the event photographers will be updated with a day or so - and a nice certificate with your photo too.
Not sure if Cervelo will be the one to do it but the obvious next direction in aero bikes is like the HOPE, GB track bike moving fork and seat stays super wide
Peaks as age groups in starts. At 75 next year where would the age selection start. Might be better than this time group start. Which is a bit loose. 175klm this year before missing the cut off before Anglers. So will go for a finish next year. Guess I dont have many epics left in me. Got to admit it was the most inspiring 4 days ever I have spent away.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingI’ve done it every year. It’s a really well organised event. Unfortunately the course design is a bit restricted at the moment due to rail and busway construction, but the Coot-tha climb at the end really sorts out who still has legs
Yep. The Brisbane course has other issues (e.g. pinch points early on are a bit dangerous, several hairpin turnarounds etc.), but the hills leading to and on Coot-tha fits most of Jesse's criteria.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingthis year our age group blew to pieces on Coot-tha and it was pretty much a 10km ITT drag to the finish. Dodgy first 20km though - big groups, very technical, road furniture and narrow bike paths.
@@cmathews1 From what I’ve seen of the routes for next year, the race fondos aren’t doing the Riverloop paths again. The shorter distances probably will.
Said the same thing on Amy's to a mate of mine. I personally think the UCI qualifier race should finish up the Erskine Falls climb and the regular Fondo group can finish in the town without the final climb. The Erskine climb would definitely be selective and even reward good tactics as there's steep bits and shallow bits. Makes event logistics a lot harder however so maybe finishing on the punchy climbs in town is a more feasible alternative
@@discbrakefan agreed but it avoids massive bunch finishes and makes it safer. IMHO the harder the finish the better. Gives everyone someone to train and conserve for.
@@discbrakefan I've ridden it a few times, I'd honestly say a versatile rider could hang on with pure climbers, but you could be right that its a bit too hard. Maybe one of the local bergs should be cobbled, that'd spruce things up!
One descending tip which comes from skiing (same dynamics). On a right corner, pretend you are trying to see around the corner, so lean your upper body/head to the left and lower it, the lower the better and carve the turn. In regards to outside foot down, no MTB'er goes through a corner with outside leg down, they go through neutral to get as much suspension in their legs. If you practice neutral legs, you'll find pushing your right hand down (right turn) has similar effect to having your left leg (outside leg) down. So push right hand down, lean upper body left, get low and try to see around the corner (which is useful anyway) while keeping neutral legs keeps your butt off the saddle. Oh and a dead giveaway for an average descender is someone who throws the inside knee out, you are not on a motorbike, that does nothing but acts like an air brake. If an air brake is what you are going for then fine, but it does nothing to improve cornering. In skiing, if you are traversing a hill, you push your hips and knees into the hill, lean your body out (like trying to see around a corner) and put all your weight on the outside ski. By pushing your knees into the hill, it tilts the ski to present an edge to the hill giving you grip. Lowering your centre of gravity gives you more grip and you can 'power' through the turn. As you get better skiing and cycling, you will look further and further up the road as you are confident that your body and bike will tackle whatever the road throws at it.
One descending technique I did not hear is counter steering, where the inside handlebar is pushed down while the weight on the saddle is shifted slightly out. The outside leg is pressing down and the body is balanced and lowered. What do you think?
“Why would you rip off another brand’s name” I’m a photographer. My first commercial job was for McDonald’s in Shanghai. To do to the job, I bought a at the time state-of-the-art Canon 5D MkII from an official Canon store in Shanghai. When I told the Singaporean creative director who hired me, she asked if I was sure it was a real Canon camera. Ripping off established brands is a tradition in Chinese business.
Regarding the descending technique, could you comment on the hand/finger position...is it better to always have a couple of fingers/hand on the brake levers at all times....while on the drops, I find it hard to keep my fingers on the brake levers at all times
If you're riding on an open road with traffic, then forget about going for 'fast times'...... Read Roadcraft, and learn about limit points - and be able to stop in the space available on your own side of the road.
Or, how about bigger gaps than like 3 or 4 mins between bunches at the start. Much less chance of people coming together, until well further down the road. As you know, those sort of gaps are tiny when it comes to road racing.
Yeah, but the 7:30am start, and the groups being so close together is all for one reason - road closures. Even with a huge event for bicycles like Amy's, we still have to prioritise motor vehicles. 😢
@@robertlight2370 , I understand there's logistics, and road closures etc, but in the interests of a quality event that is safe, and worth racing, the gaps need to made bigger. The town obviously wants the event, but then road closures is the reasoning to 'tighten the belt'. It's a bit hard to argue it both ways.
@@davidlilja9180, there'd be some putting minimum 5mins into others in the race. Granted those out the back are no longer 'in the race'. Something to be said for an all in start, but probably doesn't work for numerous 100's of riders.
Great episode again. Have to agree with some of the comments re trail breaking - Jesse would be less likely to sit up and brake mid corner if you can master trail braking and add it as a tool. Again you need to train and practice every ride to build muscle memory
I think the bonk bros would have them covered. Scott was literally riding with Remco in the Tour of Britain the other week and Dylan is in the Life Time Grand Prix.
@@friendofships I don't disagree but -- out of 17 teams --- Project Echelon Racing was 17th and Scott was in place 90 of 91 finishers. I know they were in the same race and Scott unloaded on Remco at some point, but "riding with Remco"" is loosely defined.
I had a similar thought, and maybe when Jesse was racing on a team in Europe, and possibly in a crit, but Dylan is a pro who rides full time, no kids. Granted Dizzle made that claim, and I think Jesse could probably give him a run for his money with a solid training block under his belt. Chris clearly is a dominant climber, so with the right route I reckon he'd do alright against some of the Bonk Bros.
@@redkeyspoke I reckon this is a potential show topics. Scott races currently at the highest level of any of us, that's just a fact. I would argue Jesse when he is fit (and like we have discussed he really only needs a month to do that) would match him, or any of the group for power and endurance. Now me vs Dylan is an interesting one, problem is the races he does and what I do are getting further and further away from each other. He would destroy me in a gravel race, but get me in a 2-3hr road race with enough climbing, I reckon we would be very evenly matched and it would depend on group dynamics etc. Maybe a chat for when we have him on later this year.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Ooh, I got a response from the man himself 🤩. Would love to see that talk play out. I suspect Dylan might be a bit more humble than Drew, especially if he's a guest on your podcast. No question Dylan would likely destroy y'all in any Grand Prix event, but like you said, on the right road course, you two could do well! Scott certainly has potential but he's less of a podcaster than a recurring guest, imo. No disrespect to him, I think he sometimes helps keep the egos in check when he's firing.
I tried it, I had a Chinese frame. There was absolutely nothing wrong g with it, it ride well, was built extremely well and I honestly couldn't fault it. BUT, I couldn't get it out of my head that I might be 'missing out' on something not having a mainstream frame. So u decided to get a Cannondale S6E Hi-Mod, put Ultegra 12 di2 and CRW Wheels ..... I love it, 6.7kg (without pedals) and it feels great 👌
So as I was riding the trainer today due to not wanting to ride through Hurricane Helene road debris, I was shocked to learn about a Grand Fondo coming up in Jacksonville area which is where I live. I have heard nothing on that locally in any of the shops. This area is so flat and the only climbing are bridges. Just find it comical I find out about this from 2 dudes around the world from me. I guess I need to see if my main local shop is going to be providing support or participating. I appreciate you keeping me informed of my local ride, LOL.
I had descending/cornering explained to me by a a 6’4” physics teacher who explained that the dwell centre is far less stable for tall people. Hence even though he was an experienced fast motor cyclist I would put 5-10m on corners at 50+. So JC will always feel and be more unstable cornering
Surprised something about height is this far down. I’m the same height/weight as Jessie. On steep descents I have no real chance of keeping up with my buddy that’s 5’10. Trying to follow his wheel feels like I’m near death.
Can I add for better cornering, try to not death grip your bars and don't lock elbows. Relaxed but confident grips on the bars just allows all other factors to occur better.
Just back from Denmark to Aus, had all the issues you mentioned Jesse after a flight including disc brakes too tight, front derailleur stopped working. Regarding the Gran Fondo World Champs, it was very much a race and a dangerous one at that. So many crashes, heard of a broken back for one rider also a broken pelvis. Numbers were too high. Chatted to a commissaire before hand and he said they don’t even know what it is yet ie the event..they had loads of food at feed stops for example but can’t imagine anyone stopped.
Just because UCI calls it a gran fondo does not mean that is what it is. A ride that is a qualifier for a world championship in age group, is straight up a race. But since they want to make money and have a lot of participants, they call it a gran fondo, so it is a ride for those further back in the pack. If they charge like 1000 dollar to race then they can have their races, the roads are still free to ride :-) In Norway prices have increased, but around 100 dollar is probably around max for a gran fondo event. Should cover the costs and give a little to the club organizing, not finance the whole club.
@@S9999Frank this is spot on. And riders need to have clear what it is they want and then enter/ride accordingly. Jesse and Chris clearly wanted a race, in which case “Gran Fondo” is kind of a misnomer and the wrong place for them to be. Go find a race. But don’t ask a Gran Fondo to be more of a race, because Gran Fondos aren’t races.
You can be first over the line but because of the timing chip just like 3Peaks the time is from when you roll over both start and finish. Hopefully you will correct this in the next episode
Tour de Brisbane I did a Jessie Coyle. Me wanting bigger water bottles decided NOT to use my Cannondale aero bottles on my Cannondale. Started in front group, hanging on for 20 mins until the group finally started to ease up. Ready to settle in until Cootha and bang, hit a manhole and both bottles ejected. Worst feeling, I also turned around and picked them up. Never saw the front group again. 😢
The UCI qualifier in Dubai starts riders in self selected speed groups but you qualify based on your performance within your age group. At the World Championships we were started in our age groups. How do you feel about wearing national jerseys if you ride in the world Championship next year?🤣 Well done to both of you!
An episode late with the recommendation but would love to hear a segment where the both of you talk about things that’d go in your Cycling Room 101 (à la the BBC show where celebrities would discuss the things that annoy them the most).
On descending and braking.. I feel the opposite about which brake to use when. When you brake, your bike is trying to stop and your body continues to try to keep moving forward-inertia-meaning you’re loading the front of the bike. If you are using more rear brake, now you’re continuing to load the front of the bike as your brake harder, reducing grip in the rear, so you grab more brake… lose more grip… etc. before your know if you’ve locked up the wheel before you’re stopped and you lose control, slide out. I keep the weight back and use the front brake until I’ve scrubbed a comfortable amount of speed, then incorporate the rear brake on top of that as needed to increase braking power. Am I wrong here in my line of thought?
Use the front brake to slow, and the rear is to balance the bike, so not everything is loaded on the front......Two wheeled, whether motorcycle or bike is the same physics.
Tour De Brisbane has just what you want Jessie. 95k then Mt Cootha, then 10k till the end. If you can hang on till Cootha you qualify even with less than 200watts up the Mountain.
I did the Sligo one, there wasn't any climbing really. The route was changed last minute and it wasn't a particularly scenic route, good for a race and jostling in the bunch but not for someone who wanted a nice day out in the saddle with scenic views. Considering the price, there's better fondos you can do in Ireland. Not sure I'd have done it if I wasn't racing. I dunno. That said. Fully closed roads were absolutely massive though great craic going fast and bombing down wrong side of the road, you rarely get that in Irish races. I heard participants who were there to purely take part were actually surprised racing was happening around them. Im not sure if it was down to this particular event but at the start everyone was mixed together and it did result in some conflicts among riders. I hope they do it again next year as there was some issues they need to sort out. It's nice to have a mass start event that you can actually race and not feel weird for doing so. Banger of an episode. More of this!
Some notes on the Amy Course. First 10 years started down the coast, the UCI Grand Fondo rules require a climb early in the course to brake up the groups which is why it changed direction.
Yeah ……. None of that is correct. Oh I did the first 9 years of Amy’s. First 2 years went down the coast in self assessed speed waves. Then it changed direction and in age groups. There are no UCI gran condo requirements for courses other than distance and the willingness of the promoter to pay the UCI fee
Great show lads, the UCI don’t seem to care about details that you have identified well. Next years TT is going to have the turn around so they have footage of the Great ocean road Sign overhead but then a climb that’s very dangerous due to bumpy road that is far from ideal for TT descending. In Denmark the TT course wasn’t cleared or cleaned of gravel on corners and a dead wild bore on course. Care factor zero! 😢
I’m still surprised you guys haven’t commented on the harbour city GP as part of Pro Velo Super League. Keen to hear your thoughts and what you know about it! How will they get numbers if all the teams are seeming to fold at the moment
Jesse, if you want to see the best/worst examples of pothole patchwork quilt, take a day trip to Dungog and ride to Chichester Dam or ride the Fosterton loop and get back to me.
I stayed on the road behind town up to the golf course. That would be a good finish. You'd start up the first climb again, but only for about 300m. Then you turn left and have about a 1km punchy, steep, nasty little climb.
I know this is a strange question, What bracket is Jesse using on his stem for his GoPro ( I think) ? It's great to know your views on UCI Gran Fondo races. I live on the West Coast ( Oregon) in the United States and we really don't have many UCI world championship qualifiers. A drawback living in the United States is the travel costs are 4 times the cost then someone living in Europe, Australia or the kingdom. Thanks guys for showing everyone Australian racing and training.
I get such good feels when, on a Wednesday, I see a new show has hit the Tube! Long may it continue. Quick, but arguably complex question; I’m riding a rim brake 2018 Orbea Orca, specced with Campag Super Record 11 spd groupset, Bora Ultras, and Darimo cockpit. I’ve spent the last 4 yrs gradually upgrading the bike to this level. For future proofing purposes, I’m seriously contemplating the change to aero frame, hydraulic disc brakes, thru axles, 12 spd groupset, and so on. I already know that there isn’t a hope in hell I’d be able to afford a bike of a comparable standard to the one I have. What do you guys think? Should I make the change and accept a potentially lower level of componentry, or should I just stick with what I already have and scrounge second-hand parts as and when replacements are required? Much love, from Ireland, Jonny.
You'll be able to get components for that bike for a very long time. Sounds like a fantastic bike and going to an entry/mid level disc brake bike is going to be a bit of a disappointment. If you like the bike, save some money and buy a collection of spares. I'm in a similar situation (not as nice a bike as you) but I can't justify the cost of an equivalent new bike just to have better brakes!
Having ridden around 15 UCI gran fondo qualifying events ( 10 Amy's & 5 B2B) and 4 UCI gran fondo world championships I have to say the level of lack of knowledge in many of the comments by Chris and Jesse regarding Amy’s and the UCI gran fondos is surprising. It is obvious you guys could benefit from chatting to people who have experience in these particular events and not just from the younger rider perspective. You need to understand that the UCI gran fondo concept started to be the UCI replacement to the masters world championships in St Johann, Austria. Initially the UCI gran fondo WC was for masters riders. Until the UCI saw the money to be made from these events and the younger age groups were included so now it includes all ages over 18. These UCI events are run as age groups and are effectively an age group scratch race. It is not intended as a fun social ride. Otherwise the feed stops would be used by all but no the serious age group racers never stop. At Amy's there was a recreational event that started after the age group riders. This event started in speed waves where the rider self nominated their average speed (not always very accurate method) The first 2 years of Amy's went in a clockwise direction and the riders started in speed waves (again self nominated) This did not guarantee all the fast riders were in the front groups. Year 1 the winner came from the 4th wave. It was super dangerous along the coast. The only way this speed wave could work properly is if you had to provide a qualifying time from a previous year.like they do in the City to Surf run. The direction was changed as a safety issue based on those first 2 years feedback and the 10km climb helped to slow things down and at least made the passing speed differential a little bit less. Remember guys that these events also cater for riders well over 60 and it is not just for younger riders. The Amy's course is certainly selective enough as a scratch race event. There are more than enough changes of elevation along the coast to launch attacks if having a sprint is not preferred. The finish line could be 200 metres further up the road so the round-a-bout was not so close and yes the cables at the finish line are not safe. Cheers
The best way to descend down a mountain is to have the map on your computer. If it's not a hair pin or sharp corner coming up then FULL SEND, don't even sweat it.
Saw a guy go over the guardrail on bobbo west descent last Friday. My mates and I were climbing and a car decided to pass us on a blind corner. Guy riding coming down locked up and stacked it going over the railing. Luckily he landed on the 30cm just behind the railing before the cliff edge started. Top tube got torn up on the guardrail too. I reckon if I were in his shoes no way I would've kept it upright. Imagine coming around a corner and a 4wd coming towards you in your own lane. I never descend with enough margin to make up for that kind of driving though.
No one rides as hard as Jesse at Centennial Park.
Biggest efforts, most aero 😂
Lmfaooo00 😂🤣😆🤌 and don't forget it!
He's right, most cyclists are just in it for the lifestyle/aesthetics and cafe rides, they have no idea what it means to suffer through a hard workout.
@@tristanm8250 actually he is wrong . Let me explain. It doesn't get easier you just get faster. So , Just because someone is putting out more wattage and is going at a faster speed doesn't mean the effort is harder.
Someone can be at their Max heart rate pushing as hard as they can and can only do It at 170 w. And others can do way more but the effort Is the same. The effort will always stay the same till you reach a point where you're doing a much higher amount of wattage and speed. So what have we learned here today?
That I'm always right 😐
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed nope
Thanks for the shout out guys! Just came second🥈at the national champs with this set up. Video soon coming!
Awesome news Jordan! Congratulations. Will have to try and meet up next time I'm in WA
Thanks for the shoutout guys… massively appreciate it! Great show as always… 🙌
No worries mate, good luck with everything in 🇵🇹🤙🏼
Thanks for the love fellas!! Great to pin a number on.... I mean stick a number on ya helmet 😜
😂 ... nice work mate. Will have to get down your way for a Glenvale this summer.
@@ChrisMillerCycling real racing happens in masters 🔥
Massively underrated content 🥵
Thanks Chris and Jesse. This was so interesting. Well done both of you.
IMO trailbraking is extremely effective, safe and the fastest way through corners. Yes, you do most of your braking before the corner but you don't just lift your levers before turn. You trail it off until you are at the speed you can take the corner at. On decreasing radius corners, you can actually trail brakes even past the apex. In more flowing, less technical, increasing radius corners, you can let off brakes even before apex. In a perfectly round, even corner where the curve of entry matches exit, you pretty much brake until you apex then slowly release.
Thanks for the entertainment boys- made the hospital 🚑stay a little easier. Cleaned up by a ute with a bulbar today who didn’t give way on a round about. Knees busted up and my new Rm01 BMC is a write off. But was very lucky considering. Anyway, these are always a pleasure to listen to, thank you. 🙏
Good attitude. There was a fatal crash on Sunday on a hill I ride most weekends. Makes you think.
I hope you are back on 2 wheels pronto!
I raced the US Gran Fondo National Championship on a full kit Trek Emonda this past Sunday. I smashed BOTH my Bontrager Aeolus Pro 51 wheels on pothole the Thursday before the race. I was able to go to a Trek corporate dealership, show my wheels, and they just gave me the pair of wheels ($2000), swapped over all my gearing and disc brakes, checked over the bike, tuned the shifting, all for free that Thursday and I didn't even miss my pre-ride. That's what you're paying $10k more for (my bike is actually $8000 USD so not even that). I would've missed my National Championship race without it or have been on shitty alloy wheels that I found in some cheap secondhand shop somewhere.
In fairness, in the US you can't swing a cat without hitting a Trek or Specialized dealership, and those are basically the only two brands with this type of universal accessibility within the US, but it's still worth it (plus Project One is fantastic).
well , if you paying double , you could buy two bikes for that price , then problem solved, have your wife ride roll up with the spare bike if you need a bike change.
That may work for a top athlete at national level, do you think the average Joe going on sunday rides would get the same treatment ? I'm pretty sure I would have no such luck at my local trek dealer, although I like and ride trek bikes.
The technique talk at the end was super interesting and I think this would be an excellent segment going forward. You could talk about how to climb better next or sprinting 🤝😊
I think I’m with Jesse on the descending. On your weekend ride, crossing the white lines is dangerous for you and others following you. When your on closed roads, cut loose. Also, everyone should descend in the drops. If you hit a bump at speed you’re less likely to lose grip on the bars than if you’re on the hoods.
Another EXCITING episode of THE Nero Show! The only cycling podcast to GAIN watts after 40, live on the podium, and be NICKNAMED Speed Sniffer in Uni!
😂
Interesting descending discussion. I'm a top 1% descender in the Bay Area, with a number of road KOMs. Predictably, I have an MTB background, and also grew up on motorcycles. Half of the benefit is comfort with sliding, but the other half is comfort with quickly timing inputs to the course. When you do an Enduro or DH descent, it's like a game of GuitarHero where you need to time your dance perfectly with the track in order to stay on your bike and on your line.
what's ur strava
@@buckcram5908 what's ur social?
One of the best episodes yet!
Would love to see the both of you build up the same all out aero china build, something like the Bigrock Aero or Dare Aero and see a comparison bs the S5, Tavelo and if there are any differences in how you each describe the bikes.
Agree! Very entertaining episode
Glad you enjoyed it guys. As the competing China build, I’m hoping to something like that early next year.
Congratulations, Chirs and Jesse, on the race.
Great show !
❤️
Have basically given up travelling with disc brakes. Way too much hassle - spongey brakes, no brakes, bent rotors, realigning calipers etc. it’s the reason why I have purchased a second hand SW Tarmac rim brake bike. So much easier and great to ride after being on disc for the last 6 years
If you can handle the long drive, there’s a lot to be said for hiring a Winnebago style campervan to make the road trip. Tons of storage space, accommodation sorted, bikes fit in the back (or mount a rack on the rear), food easily cooked in the camper, park it within a close distance to the event, no airfares, no accommodation fees, no hire car fees, no bike mechanic (hopefully 🙏) needed, lots of positives……..and there’s the priceless memories of a road trip. Split the cost and share with a buddy……it’d be interesting how it works out $$$-wise vs flying. Food for thought.
It’s a great call, my main issue is parking around where I live. It’s a very inner city area, and having that parked on the street for months at an end wouldn’t be ideal
@@ChrisMillerCycling i meant just hiring one for the event….get a mate to go halves and pick the Winnebago up locally from a rental place, use it for the event, and then drop it back in the Mo day or Tuesday after 👍😀
In the US, a competitive Gran Fondo has timed segments that are all tabulated and the lowest times across the segments gives you the winner. The segments conclude before the actual end of the course. Smash the segments, chill in between. Is it not like this in all other countries? If it’s just fastest across the entire course, what really differentiates it from a road race…?
The UCI gran fondo qualifier in the US (Alabama) is not segmented. It's 100 miles, 10k feet climbing. There are still sprint finishes but in smaller groups.
This is only true for Suarez events, I believe. (And whatever Jeremiah Bishop's new thing is in Virginia)
Not sure I love the "timed segments" solution. Feels like it might just turns into a giant strava segment ride, without all the other elements if a bike race. That said, don't knock it until you have tried it, so maybe I should try one.
No sign of KOMs this year in Amy's online results, that was a segment previously. As was a Saturday gravel 'ride' and a Saturday hillclimb up the street next to the pub; that was a blast up 22% over 110m length.
This is not true for all Gran Fondos in the U.S. that’s just Suarez organized events I believe. GFNY events are timed for the full course. GFNY is UCI sanctioned and includes pro teams, so I assume it includes UCI qualifier points
You both mentioned the difficulty of finding larger chainring sizes to suit Amy's course.
Would an additional inefficiency of your highest gear only, whilst perhaps adding chainline efficiencies elsewhere ( just why do they use 62T rings in TTs?), influence you both to reconsidering an XDR rear hub to allow the 10t to only be used on downhills?
Reserve wheelsets oughta have an XDR option, surely. Jesse, are your rims as wide as the frame/fork can accept, there maybe a reason for an even more focused Chinese wheelset build. My rimbrake Cervelo allows for 28mm widths, so my rims are 28mm wide, allowing 21mmID. These can wear 23 & 25 for the rule of 105, or 28 & 30 with no 105 rule. The Velocity Quill wheel sets for both my training and endurance rides also offer 21mmID but much less OD for the Cervelo RS but day to day wheel swaps if needed (4-seasons vs GP5000s, & for flats).
Velocity also has a 23mmID disc only rim for those looking to go wider on a budget. Tyre width advantages aren't all about aero. We were riding 'forever' with unaero wheel/tyre sets before Josh P, Zipp, Cervelo & Roubaix aligned in the mid naughties to actually test. Any thoughts on doing your own Chung Method aero tresting to confirm your optimisations?
Wheels may not offer the aero savings alone without integration with framesets but what about for gearing options and tyre 105 ruling?
Seems this could open up Shimano's top-end gearing as each rear cost step is roughly 4 teeth at the front. Perhaps you could both have a Sheldon Browne Gear Calculator cast as Gain ratios actually quantify how tyre size and gearing choices relate cogs and cranks lengths too. Maybe Jesse would carry around his inner chainring & front derailleur for more than just the 1 time on that 16% pinch after Forest, too!
Thinking outside the square? As a 17yo building my first serious road bike before 6 spd freewheels, there were few options for a hack to select from, 13-17, 13-21 with 52/42 or 52/39 or so. A Teledyne Titan priced at $2400 with Campy Record in my local bike ship wore 60/47T Suginos. On my budget I selected TA 60/46 rings and a custom DA 1st gen 13-28t freewheel. That worked for me for 18 years whilst moving onto 13-30t 7spd before it was stolen.
It seems to me that all too often gearing selection for a course is overlooked. Who carries around gears that they won't use anyway, seriously? If you don't discuss gearing choices in your journeys to win rainbow jerseys I think you are both stuck in thinking like one bike can do it all.
So many finetuning/MG discussions oughta be on the tabletop now. Discard any at your own peril; like Silca's thin bartape for better CdA? I may never win anything but I still want my equipment to never hold back my speed anywhere. Shouldn't one's equipment work even harder than the athlete.
No stones unturned, please guys! Start at the basics to confirm every selection in each area is optimized, you'll be doing this with your training. Before Amy's you both agreed, 'no aero-helments'. I'm guessing '25 will be an aero helmets race, now!
I'm especially looking forward to your Amy's 102 cast when that happens. 12 months looks like a good timeframe to plan and adapt to any subtle, or not so, changes afterall.
Congrats guys! Your show got me through all my indoor training session🎉 On the Tavelo naming, “Ta”(踏）means pedaling, and “velo” (为乐） sounds like “is fun”. So it is basically “pedaling is fun”. It is quite straightforward and nice for a Chinese speaker😂
The course used to go the opposite way. That way it had a selective climb 40k in and a stepped climb at the end.
Great content guys. Raced in Whistler GF couple weeks ago. Self selected start corrals based on estimated time of completion regardless of age category, works well with no real bottleneck issues
Amy’s is a great course though (despite your take on the finish), It’s got beautiful climbs through the forest, and a stunning rolling segment along the coast.
Only ever done the old reversed route. A little short but beautiful.
@@billeterk Large bunches along GOR for 40 kays then the real race began with the first of two 'warmed-up' climbs.
I can relate to Jessie's descending view so much. I can descend, but I'm just playing the odds through my head all the time. It's a mental game.
I agree with Jesse on descending. I am not paid to get to the bottom as fast as I can. I'd rather save my teeth haha.
My biggest issue was the front of 50-54 was the fastest bunch in the large group I was in. We had the front of 45-49 with us, and plenty of younger groups that had been dropped. We were contesting the win. Yet the 18-30yo’s were chopping wheels and swamping the front to position even though they’d been dropped and their race was over. They made it super dangerous. Lots of zwift heroes with little race experience. I got hit from behind, handlebars knocked and wheel chopped about 20 times in the final 30kms. Sketchy as.
The risk chat, I think it’s difficult to view someone else’s actions through your own lease as far as risk goes. One person descending or doing a skill that is well without their comfort range may be on the limit for another person.
Also with risk often those that are more risk averse tend to overestimate the actual risk. Perceived risk may be higher than the actual risk, whether that is because of some bias or negative experience or fear of something out of your control happening.
Cycling is such a dynamic sport that those with much higher skill levels can deal with even unexpected obstacles much better than another with a skill deficiency. The more you work on your skills the more you’ll be able to achieve. But at a certain point the risk/reward relationship may mean the risk of injury or loss is outweighed by any reward or enjoyment and if that’s the case pull it back to a risk you’re prepared to take.
Congrats on the qualification lads. Agree with the finish, there's a nice climb just opposite the caravan park that could have made for an awesome finish. Alot of peeps were warming up on it before the race.
Granted I live in Melbourne but missed the boat on getting accommodation (was a relatively late sign up) -- so drove down in the am. Certainly made things cheaper but getting up at 2am wasn't fun
Route was good. Race or want to race, it's up to the individual and whether you decide to be in the age section or recreational. My bug bear is the event village. Missed opportunity.
The vibe is frothy after people finish and centralizing that into a corral keeps things pumping and people can cross pollinate.
If they want the businesses to thrive, tell them to set up stalls in the event village.
One event that does this well is Beechworth granite classic.
Congrats fellas on 100 episodes! Fyi, prior to Fondo Worlds in Perth 2016 they held qualifying age group "races" on said course with pro teams, ams etc. It was not something piggybacking a Fondo event like Amy GF. Keep up the great work!
I like the fact that GFs are all varied, so what if some end in a bunch sprint? There's plenty in the alps and other places that are climbing specials. I do agree the parkour and the finish need to adjust to the type of finish expected for safety.
Congrats on the results!
Shimano does make a 55T 11spd chainring available to the public and not a team edition, which I run on my 12spd Shimano group. Agree very hard to get though. There are a decent amount of brands that have large chainrings 56T+ (Rotor, Miche, Carbon TI) but maybe those might be hard to get in AUS and probably aren’t as smooth. Checkout the elevation profiles of the gran fondos in the UAE…at least you have some climbs but they do the best they can given the terrain. There are start pens - one is an elite group that requires a UCI license and then speed groupings that are self selected. Still get a massive peloton with varied abilities and a sprint at the end…definitely agree need climbs to make it selective, safe, and fun
Jesse is right about descending risk
love the extra long form videos!!
100% agree on the changing vibe fondos/sportives. If you want to road race just road race, bunch sprints for a podium are not what they are about.
I fly with my bike around 4 times a year. You don’t need to top up brakes after you fly. The best way is to build the bike up, tape/tie the brake levers fully closed and hang your bike vertical with the levers as the highest point. By morning you’ll have normal brakes
Had the same brake problem when I drove to Italy from the England. And that was without even going on a plane. Apperently a very common problem with the 12 speed
as a someone who used to ride heaps of dh and enduro, i have now started racing crits and doing most of my riding on the road, i think that descending is so overlooked by most cyclists. for me its a natural thing that i have learned over years of mtb, i am comfortable finding the very edge of a tyres grip through slower (35kph or less) corners on the road but the conseqences at high speeds arent worth the risk on the road so i tend to back off a little
Really good breakdown the pros and cons of the GF. I hope the organisers take on board the potential improvements they can make to the GF in preparation for the worlds. Those speed bumps af the finish line are deadly and must go!
Hard mass start races with hard courses are great. We have one in my home town which is 5km flat then immediately goes into a hard undulating Cat2 which starts with a 13% uphill sprint until the lactate kicks in. Everyone gets sieved into w/kg. No way you can fake it. You get to the flat bit(before the next climbs) and there are minutes between bunches which makes everything so much safer as everyone's pretty much at the same level.
Loved the fondo breakdown. Jesse, I lost 2 bottles 15 minutes into a 4 hour gravel race. I got 2 bottles at mile 50, best water I ever had (I still had sugar flasks, but it was hot out).
Haha! Yeh I still don’t think I would have turned around
Yeah Jesse, that full width access on close roads for racing is awesome. Another access perk of racing, gravel events that cross private property which is otherwise closed the rest of the year.
Did you mention counter steering in your descending article? It's why Pidcock is so good. I like that you addressed the "look where you want to go". And descend on the drops. Totally agree with Jesse about not taking risks on descents.
I rate the idea of finishing up a climb in Lorne.
I was in that big peloton Chris was in, got hit by a nervous rider in the group, he bumped my chain off, lost 20 seconds getting it back on right before the forrest climb, did my all time best 5 minute effort and 1 hour effort (310 watts) trying to get back to the group, closed it a bit up the forrest climb, but once I hit the Great Ocean Road there was no way i was gonna catch them, missed out on qualifying by 4 places.
regardless good fun, its just a gran fondo but woulda been nice to qualify in my hometown.
Really interesting to read mate, and bad luck about that finish (that’s what was worrying me as well). Are you going to TOB to try and qualify
@@ChrisMillerCycling Cheers, yea I will head to TOB, fingers crossed i get a clean race there.
@@feelidelphia8032The qualification will come down to Mt Coot-tha at TOB
I would disagree with the leaning the bike and bit the rider. I’ve ridden motorbikes mountain bikes and road bikes. Mountain biking is a case of leaning the bike to get the side knobs to dig in. On the motorbike and the road bike your goal is to keep the bike as upright as possible to increase your contact patch or to keep the fatter part of the tire in contact with the road. Drop your head and try kiss your inside hood. The analogy on the motorbike was try kiss your mirror. Inside knee out, outside foot down. If you enter with too much speed then definitely stand the bike up before braking. But dragging some rear brake or trail braking the rear can help sharpen the turn up. This does however require time/skill to learn to modulate the braking properly.
Motorcycle corning can help to a point, but on a more powerful motorcycle you are trying to enter far deeper so you flatten the exit. This is to allow you to stand the bike up earlier to get the power on. On a road push bike it is all about trying to smooth the radius out as much as possible and maintain highest possible exit speed. The advantage of late braking is lost a bit unless it is a low-speed corner you are trying to pedal hard out of.
Pidcock probably the best of the best almost runs a MX style, body out bike down, with all his weight on the outside leg. It is very subtle but he head sits on the outside line of the stem and top tube using his inside knee to counter balance and hold the bike a little more upright.
ua-cam.com/video/99wJn5QBvyg/v-deo.html
re travel to and from the race, it sounds like Australia really needs a good high speed and regional rail system. Imagine how much nicer it'd be to bring the bikes on the train and zooming out and back. no airport security and sardine feeling, just lovely train zoomies
High speed rail has almost been a meme in this country. Almost every political party does a “working group” but nothing ever happens.
@ChrisMillerCycling that's sad. In the US, we're finally starting to maybe get true high-speed rail in a few areas. I fortunately live on the Northeast Corridor where we have great regional rail, but it's way too heavily populated to truly be high speed. Fun fact I learned recently: more people live in the corridor from the DC metro area to the Boston metro area than in the entire state of California
If any political party had the balls to properly tax mining and gas companies instead of taking donations from them, we’d be able to build high speed rail tomorrow
You're talking about a continent the size of the USA, with less than 10% the population.
Sounds fantastic on paper, but is there a market for it?
In Victoria, where this Gran Fondo was held, building a local suburban railway line addition and staffing it for 5 years has blown out to $216B. That's 90km of railway. 55 miles. That's 3.9B per mile. Obviously we have economies of scale and clear land for a high speed rail system, but the costs based on Victoria's experience (or is it debacle) of building rail way line should show the likelihood of a successful high speed rail project.
FWIW it's ~900km from Paramatta NSW to Melbourne, Victoria.
@@aarondcmedia9585 Building a metro-based train system is considerably more complex and expensive compared to a regional train line. So the cost/km is pretty irrelevant here.
Yes there would be a market for sure. Especially if it made stops at major regional centres that don’t have large airports.
Saw you in Lorne, was about to say that I love the podcast but the words didn't come out, well, love the podcast! Regarding the AGF course, take your point from an elite level, but the end is tough enough for recs and age gr non qualifiers. They need to be inclusive to keep the event going, so on balance I think you should lose out. A good way maybe is by having a first wave of elites or previous qualifiers regardless of age group.
That is absolutely the balance, I just feeling having this "UCI" element has shifted the balance without actually thinking abut the ramifications.
Here in Korea, all riders select their group when they register for fondos. Typically it is a, b, and c. The registration page typically explains the groups by average speed and expected finish time. The race numbers have different colors based on your group. When it comes to the start line, some of the events are better at staggering the starts by groups. I had just assumed fondos around the world were like this. I guess not.
Thanks for that info James. Can I ask do they do podiums or is it just a timed event?
@@ChrisMillerCycling there is always a podium - one for women and one for men. Just not by age group. So sadly, chris, for old guys like us, no podium spots. Generally you receive an sms within moments of crossing the finish that with a link to real time results and photos. You will know your results, including by age group and gender, overall and the KOM segments. Assuming you put your number where it should go on the bike (and sacrifice aerodynamics) your photos from the event photographers will be updated with a day or so - and a nice certificate with your photo too.
Ultra Trail Australia has a mix of starting groups based on previous results and self-seeded groups at the back
Not sure if Cervelo will be the one to do it but the obvious next direction in aero bikes is like the HOPE, GB track bike moving fork and seat stays super wide
Biggest benefit of winning a qualifier is you get a call up at the world champ race so you don't have to stage an hour before the start.
Love it guys. One of these UCI grand fondos to consider is the Niseko Classic. Think it's one of those tough ones. But great event nonetheless
Peaks as age groups in starts. At 75 next year where would the age selection start. Might be better than this time group start. Which is a bit loose. 175klm this year before missing the cut off before Anglers. So will go for a finish next year. Guess I dont have many epics left in me. Got to admit it was the most inspiring 4 days ever I have spent away.
Do Tour de Brisbane next time. Back of Mount Coot-tha 10km from the finish. 2.3km at 9%. After a course of rolling hills. Very selective.
That's interesting, I heard some very negative reports, specifically about that finish and huge groups, but sounds like you enjoyed it.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingI’ve done it every year. It’s a really well organised event.
Unfortunately the course design is a bit restricted at the moment due to rail and busway construction, but the Coot-tha climb at the end really sorts out who still has legs
Yep. The Brisbane course has other issues (e.g. pinch points early on are a bit dangerous, several hairpin turnarounds etc.), but the hills leading to and on Coot-tha fits most of Jesse's criteria.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingthis year our age group blew to pieces on Coot-tha and it was pretty much a 10km ITT drag to the finish.
Dodgy first 20km though - big groups, very technical, road furniture and narrow bike paths.
@@cmathews1 From what I’ve seen of the routes for next year, the race fondos aren’t doing the Riverloop paths again. The shorter distances probably will.
Said the same thing on Amy's to a mate of mine. I personally think the UCI qualifier race should finish up the Erskine Falls climb and the regular Fondo group can finish in the town without the final climb.
The Erskine climb would definitely be selective and even reward good tactics as there's steep bits and shallow bits.
Makes event logistics a lot harder however so maybe finishing on the punchy climbs in town is a more feasible alternative
What a brilliant idea. That’s 425M vertical over about 8km to the highest point and would really sort things out.
That climb is probably a bit too hard for a finishing climb? Certainly selective but maybe favours a particular type of rider?
@@discbrakefan agreed but it avoids massive bunch finishes and makes it safer. IMHO the harder the finish the better. Gives everyone someone to train and conserve for.
@@discbrakefan I've ridden it a few times, I'd honestly say a versatile rider could hang on with pure climbers, but you could be right that its a bit too hard. Maybe one of the local bergs should be cobbled, that'd spruce things up!
One descending tip which comes from skiing (same dynamics). On a right corner, pretend you are trying to see around the corner, so lean your upper body/head to the left and lower it, the lower the better and carve the turn. In regards to outside foot down, no MTB'er goes through a corner with outside leg down, they go through neutral to get as much suspension in their legs. If you practice neutral legs, you'll find pushing your right hand down (right turn) has similar effect to having your left leg (outside leg) down. So push right hand down, lean upper body left, get low and try to see around the corner (which is useful anyway) while keeping neutral legs keeps your butt off the saddle. Oh and a dead giveaway for an average descender is someone who throws the inside knee out, you are not on a motorbike, that does nothing but acts like an air brake. If an air brake is what you are going for then fine, but it does nothing to improve cornering.
In skiing, if you are traversing a hill, you push your hips and knees into the hill, lean your body out (like trying to see around a corner) and put all your weight on the outside ski. By pushing your knees into the hill, it tilts the ski to present an edge to the hill giving you grip. Lowering your centre of gravity gives you more grip and you can 'power' through the turn.
As you get better skiing and cycling, you will look further and further up the road as you are confident that your body and bike will tackle whatever the road throws at it.
One descending technique I did not hear is counter steering, where the inside handlebar is pushed down while the weight on the saddle is shifted slightly out. The outside leg is pressing down and the body is balanced and lowered. What do you think?
Chris your bike is the new Dare
“Why would you rip off another brand’s name”
I’m a photographer. My first commercial job was for McDonald’s in Shanghai. To do to the job, I bought a at the time state-of-the-art Canon 5D MkII from an official Canon store in Shanghai.
When I told the Singaporean creative director who hired me, she asked if I was sure it was a real Canon camera.
Ripping off established brands is a tradition in Chinese business.
Regarding the descending technique, could you comment on the hand/finger position...is it better to always have a couple of fingers/hand on the brake levers at all times....while on the drops, I find it hard to keep my fingers on the brake levers at all times
Jesse: Do you like the big baguetter holder?
Chris: Oh yeah... BIGGERRRR!
Hahahahahahaha
If you take the pads out and put the bleed blocks in. That normally help stop any need for a top up of fluid after flying
one thing i actively do on descends is to stay calm and try not be surprised by incoming traffics, and yes looking at exit is super important.
If you're riding on an open road with traffic, then forget about going for 'fast times'......
Read Roadcraft, and learn about limit points - and be able to stop in the space available on your own side of the road.
Canyon chaser videos for you guys, late apexes and trail braking. The only safe way to descend.
Or, how about bigger gaps than like 3 or 4 mins between bunches at the start. Much less chance of people coming together, until well further down the road. As you know, those sort of gaps are tiny when it comes to road racing.
Yeah, but the 7:30am start, and the groups being so close together is all for one reason - road closures. Even with a huge event for bicycles like Amy's, we still have to prioritise motor vehicles. 😢
@@robertlight2370 , I understand there's logistics, and road closures etc, but in the interests of a quality event that is safe, and worth racing, the gaps need to made bigger. The town obviously wants the event, but then road closures is the reasoning to 'tighten the belt'. It's a bit hard to argue it both ways.
Especially when it starts with a 10 kay climb.
An accurately handicapped start, so we can all arrive to cross the finish at the same time!
🤔🤫
@@davidlilja9180, there'd be some putting minimum 5mins into others in the race. Granted those out the back are no longer 'in the race'. Something to be said for an all in start, but probably doesn't work for numerous 100's of riders.
50:48 hahaha Silca SS dripping on the rim, feels very familiar
Great episode again. Have to agree with some of the comments re trail breaking - Jesse would be less likely to sit up and brake mid corner if you can master trail braking and add it as a tool. Again you need to train and practice every ride to build muscle memory
Good point!
The Bonk Bros say they have the "fastest" podcast -- not so fast -- Jesse and Chris have something to say about that.
I think the bonk bros would have them covered. Scott was literally riding with Remco in the Tour of Britain the other week and Dylan is in the Life Time Grand Prix.
@@friendofships I don't disagree but -- out of 17 teams --- Project Echelon Racing was 17th and Scott was in place 90 of 91 finishers. I know they were in the same race and Scott unloaded on Remco at some point, but "riding with Remco"" is loosely defined.
I had a similar thought, and maybe when Jesse was racing on a team in Europe, and possibly in a crit, but Dylan is a pro who rides full time, no kids. Granted Dizzle made that claim, and I think Jesse could probably give him a run for his money with a solid training block under his belt. Chris clearly is a dominant climber, so with the right route I reckon he'd do alright against some of the Bonk Bros.
@@redkeyspoke I reckon this is a potential show topics. Scott races currently at the highest level of any of us, that's just a fact. I would argue Jesse when he is fit (and like we have discussed he really only needs a month to do that) would match him, or any of the group for power and endurance.
Now me vs Dylan is an interesting one, problem is the races he does and what I do are getting further and further away from each other. He would destroy me in a gravel race, but get me in a 2-3hr road race with enough climbing, I reckon we would be very evenly matched and it would depend on group dynamics etc. Maybe a chat for when we have him on later this year.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Ooh, I got a response from the man himself 🤩. Would love to see that talk play out. I suspect Dylan might be a bit more humble than Drew, especially if he's a guest on your podcast. No question Dylan would likely destroy y'all in any Grand Prix event, but like you said, on the right road course, you two could do well! Scott certainly has potential but he's less of a podcaster than a recurring guest, imo. No disrespect to him, I think he sometimes helps keep the egos in check when he's firing.
Nice to meet you as you were about to get your presentation Chris. What was your nutrition for the race
I tried it, I had a Chinese frame. There was absolutely nothing wrong g with it, it ride well, was built extremely well and I honestly couldn't fault it. BUT, I couldn't get it out of my head that I might be 'missing out' on something not having a mainstream frame. So u decided to get a Cannondale S6E Hi-Mod, put Ultegra 12 di2 and CRW Wheels ..... I love it, 6.7kg (without pedals) and it feels great 👌
I’m racing my first GF this Saturday, race starts at 11, what should be my warmup be? There is 3km neutral start at the beginning
So as I was riding the trainer today due to not wanting to ride through Hurricane Helene road debris, I was shocked to learn about a Grand Fondo coming up in Jacksonville area which is where I live. I have heard nothing on that locally in any of the shops. This area is so flat and the only climbing are bridges. Just find it comical I find out about this from 2 dudes around the world from me. I guess I need to see if my main local shop is going to be providing support or participating. I appreciate you keeping me informed of my local ride, LOL.
I had descending/cornering explained to me by a a 6’4” physics teacher who explained that the dwell centre is far less stable for tall people. Hence even though he was an experienced fast motor cyclist I would put 5-10m on corners at 50+. So JC will always feel and be more unstable cornering
Surprised something about height is this far down.
I’m the same height/weight as Jessie.
On steep descents I have no real chance of keeping up with my buddy that’s 5’10.
Trying to follow his wheel feels like I’m near death.
Can I add for better cornering, try to not death grip your bars and don't lock elbows. Relaxed but confident grips on the bars just allows all other factors to occur better.
Just back from Denmark to Aus, had all the issues you mentioned Jesse after a flight including disc brakes too tight, front derailleur stopped working.
Regarding the Gran Fondo World Champs, it was very much a race and a dangerous one at that. So many crashes, heard of a broken back for one rider also a broken pelvis. Numbers were too high.
Chatted to a commissaire before hand and he said they don’t even know what it is yet ie the event..they had loads of food at feed stops for example but can’t imagine anyone stopped.
Just because UCI calls it a gran fondo does not mean that is what it is. A ride that is a qualifier for a world championship in age group, is straight up a race. But since they want to make money and have a lot of participants, they call it a gran fondo, so it is a ride for those further back in the pack. If they charge like 1000 dollar to race then they can have their races, the roads are still free to ride :-) In Norway prices have increased, but around 100 dollar is probably around max for a gran fondo event. Should cover the costs and give a little to the club organizing, not finance the whole club.
@@S9999Frank this is spot on. And riders need to have clear what it is they want and then enter/ride accordingly. Jesse and Chris clearly wanted a race, in which case “Gran Fondo” is kind of a misnomer and the wrong place for them to be. Go find a race. But don’t ask a Gran Fondo to be more of a race, because Gran Fondos aren’t races.
You can be first over the line but because of the timing chip just like 3Peaks the time is from when you roll over both start and finish. Hopefully you will correct this in the next episode
Hard to wack it off the front with the last 40km having a 35kmph ripping tailwind. A crosswind off the sea would be better than any hill at the end
If you are counting the expenses to change chainrings etc, you should also discount reselling brand new, name brand chainrings etc though ;)
Amy's '25 earlybird priced rec-ride entries opened today for $214. UCI qualifiers need to wait.
Tour de Brisbane I did a Jessie Coyle. Me wanting bigger water bottles decided NOT to use my Cannondale aero bottles on my Cannondale. Started in front group, hanging on for 20 mins until the group finally started to ease up. Ready to settle in until Cootha and bang, hit a manhole and both bottles ejected. Worst feeling, I also turned around and picked them up. Never saw the front group again. 😢
52:46 Cav was using 11-speed 55t chainring on his 12 speed drivetrain in the Tour, so if you reaaaaally want, you can make it
The UCI qualifier in Dubai starts riders in self selected speed groups but you qualify based on your performance within your age group. At the World Championships we were started in our age groups. How do you feel about wearing national jerseys if you ride in the world Championship next year?🤣 Well done to both of you!
An episode late with the recommendation but would love to hear a segment where the both of you talk about things that’d go in your Cycling Room 101 (à la the BBC show where celebrities would discuss the things that annoy them the most).
I bought two of the Cannondale ReGrip aero bottles and cages and two don't fit in my 54cm Cannondale aero frame (systemsix).
Completely agree - look at Antalya, pancake flat, 2.5hrs. Lorne is a mountainous epic in comparison.
rather than a mass start or age groups why not do what marathons do and group everyone by expected finish time?
On descending and braking.. I feel the opposite about which brake to use when. When you brake, your bike is trying to stop and your body continues to try to keep moving forward-inertia-meaning you’re loading the front of the bike. If you are using more rear brake, now you’re continuing to load the front of the bike as your brake harder, reducing grip in the rear, so you grab more brake… lose more grip… etc. before your know if you’ve locked up the wheel before you’re stopped and you lose control, slide out.
I keep the weight back and use the front brake until I’ve scrubbed a comfortable amount of speed, then incorporate the rear brake on top of that as needed to increase braking power.
Am I wrong here in my line of thought?
Use the front brake to slow, and the rear is to balance the bike, so not everything is loaded on the front......Two wheeled, whether motorcycle or bike is the same physics.
Tour De Brisbane has just what you want Jessie. 95k then Mt Cootha, then 10k till the end. If you can hang on till Cootha you qualify even with less than 200watts up the Mountain.
I did the Sligo one, there wasn't any climbing really.
The route was changed last minute and it wasn't a particularly scenic route, good for a race and jostling in the bunch but not for someone who wanted a nice day out in the saddle with scenic views. Considering the price, there's better fondos you can do in Ireland. Not sure I'd have done it if I wasn't racing. I dunno.
That said. Fully closed roads were absolutely massive though great craic going fast and bombing down wrong side of the road, you rarely get that in Irish races.
I heard participants who were there to purely take part were actually surprised racing was happening around them. Im not sure if it was down to this particular event but at the start everyone was mixed together and it did result in some conflicts among riders.
I hope they do it again next year as there was some issues they need to sort out. It's nice to have a mass start event that you can actually race and not feel weird for doing so.
Banger of an episode. More of this!
Some notes on the Amy Course. First 10 years started down the coast, the UCI Grand Fondo rules require a climb early in the course to brake up the groups which is why it changed direction.
Yeah ……. None of that is correct. Oh I did the first 9 years of Amy’s.
First 2 years went down the coast in self assessed speed waves. Then it changed direction and in age groups.
There are no UCI gran condo requirements for courses other than distance and the willingness of the promoter to pay the UCI fee
Sounds like the plan is to be like a minute back at the start and finish with the front group to get the best time.
Great show lads, the UCI don’t seem to care about details that you have identified well.
Next years TT is going to have the turn around so they have footage of the Great ocean road Sign overhead but then a climb that’s very dangerous due to bumpy road that is far from ideal for TT descending.
In Denmark the TT course wasn’t cleared or cleaned of gravel on corners and a dead wild bore on course. Care factor zero! 😢
First it's the Spirit of Gravel ruined by this road racing mentality and now it's the Spirit of Gran Fondo. Nothing is sacred.
Might have to bring out the race wheels for next Tuesdays World Championships ride in Noosa
Keeeeeeeen.
I’m still surprised you guys haven’t commented on the harbour city GP as part of Pro Velo Super League. Keen to hear your thoughts and what you know about it! How will they get numbers if all the teams are seeming to fold at the moment
Jesse, if you want to see the best/worst examples of pothole patchwork quilt, take a day trip to Dungog and ride to Chichester Dam or ride the Fosterton loop and get back to me.
I stayed on the road behind town up to the golf course. That would be a good finish. You'd start up the first climb again, but only for about 300m. Then you turn left and have about a 1km punchy, steep, nasty little climb.
I know this is a strange question, What bracket is Jesse using on his stem for his GoPro ( I think) ?
It's great to know your views on UCI Gran Fondo races. I live on the West Coast ( Oregon) in the United States and we really don't have many UCI world championship qualifiers. A drawback living in the United States is the travel costs are 4 times the cost then someone living in Europe, Australia or the kingdom.
Thanks guys for showing everyone Australian racing and training.
I get such good feels when, on a Wednesday, I see a new show has hit the Tube! Long may it continue. Quick, but arguably complex question; I’m riding a rim brake 2018 Orbea Orca, specced with Campag Super Record 11 spd groupset, Bora Ultras, and Darimo cockpit. I’ve spent the last 4 yrs gradually upgrading the bike to this level. For future proofing purposes, I’m seriously contemplating the change to aero frame, hydraulic disc brakes, thru axles, 12 spd groupset, and so on. I already know that there isn’t a hope in hell I’d be able to afford a bike of a comparable standard to the one I have. What do you guys think? Should I make the change and accept a potentially lower level of componentry, or should I just stick with what I already have and scrounge second-hand parts as and when replacements are required? Much love, from Ireland, Jonny.
You'll be able to get components for that bike for a very long time. Sounds like a fantastic bike and going to an entry/mid level disc brake bike is going to be a bit of a disappointment. If you like the bike, save some money and buy a collection of spares. I'm in a similar situation (not as nice a bike as you) but I can't justify the cost of an equivalent new bike just to have better brakes!
I would keep it, probably faster than most disc builds
@@thomasparkins6749 Thanks, Thomas. I like your idea of collecting spares. Something I hadn't thought about.
Having ridden around 15 UCI gran fondo qualifying events ( 10 Amy's & 5 B2B) and 4 UCI gran fondo world championships I have to say the level of lack of knowledge in many of the comments by Chris and Jesse regarding Amy’s and the UCI gran fondos is surprising. It is obvious you guys could benefit from chatting to
people who have experience in these particular events and not just from the younger rider perspective.
You need to understand that the UCI gran fondo concept started to be the UCI replacement to the masters world championships in St Johann, Austria. Initially the UCI gran fondo WC was for masters riders. Until the UCI saw the money to be made from these events and the younger age groups were included so now it includes all ages over 18.
These UCI events are run as age groups and are effectively an age group scratch race. It is not intended as a fun social ride. Otherwise the feed stops would be used by all but no the serious age group racers never stop.
At Amy's there was a recreational event that started after the age group riders. This event started in speed waves where the rider self nominated their average speed (not always very accurate method)
The first 2 years of Amy's went in a clockwise direction and the riders started in speed waves (again self nominated) This did not guarantee all the fast riders were in the front groups. Year 1 the winner came from the 4th wave. It was super dangerous along the coast. The only way this speed wave could work properly is if you had to provide a qualifying time from a previous year.like they do in the City to Surf run.
The direction was changed as a safety issue based on those first 2 years feedback and the 10km climb helped to slow things down and at least made the passing speed differential a little bit less. Remember guys that these events also cater for riders well over 60 and it is not just for younger riders. The Amy's course is certainly selective enough as a scratch race event. There are more than enough changes of elevation along the coast to launch attacks if having a sprint is not preferred.
The finish line could be 200 metres further up the road so the round-a-bout was not so close and yes the cables at the finish line are not safe. Cheers
The best way to descend down a mountain is to have the map on your computer. If it's not a hair pin or sharp corner coming up then FULL SEND, don't even sweat it.
Haha! Said by every mountain biker … ever 😂
I go too hard to put my eyes down on the corner, watch riders ahead and signage
Saw a guy go over the guardrail on bobbo west descent last Friday. My mates and I were climbing and a car decided to pass us on a blind corner. Guy riding coming down locked up and stacked it going over the railing. Luckily he landed on the 30cm just behind the railing before the cliff edge started. Top tube got torn up on the guardrail too.
I reckon if I were in his shoes no way I would've kept it upright. Imagine coming around a corner and a 4wd coming towards you in your own lane. I never descend with enough margin to make up for that kind of driving though.