In-Depth Review of the Moonlander Mark I (And Why I'm Switching Keyboards)
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Despite having really enjoyed the Moonlander Mark I after over a year of daily use, I've decided to switch keyboards. This is a long term review of the Moonlander from the perspective of a software engineer, and the first look at the Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro.
www.zsa.io/moonlander
kinesis-ergo.com/shop/adv360pro/
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
1:45 - Why I'm switching keyboards
3:04 - Overview of the Moonlander
3:57 - Portability
5:13 - Programmability and Oryx Configurator
6:29 - Hotswappable keyswitches
8:05 - Helps with wrist pain
8:38 - RGB lighting
9:03 - Steep learning curve
10:22 - Expect to tinker with your layout
11:12 - 3D printed keycaps
12:47 - Your initial layout
14:12 - How tenting effects your layout
16:07 - "Getting started" advice
17:13 - When tenting is a bad idea
18:06 - The heat map
18:47 - Cons
20:22 - Build quality issues
21:17 - Rubber feet
22:16 - Paint issues
22:53 - Carrying case
23:16 - Layer lights
23:29 - Tightening the lander legs
24:27 - Weird RGB lighting issue
25:43 - Mark II wishlist
28:22 - Is it worth it?
29:11 - No dialog, just typing - Наука та технологія
Great points. As a moonlander and Planck user, I agree with most of your critique on the moonlander.
For me, kinesis won’t cut it for lots of reasons, so it’s neat to hear your perspective on the change. Please continue vlogging about your rsi journey and keyboards
I have been using the ErgoDox EZ for a few years now and can quite honestly say that it has been the best keyboard experience I have ever had. Oryx & Wally are super convenient for changing layouts and have never had any kind of issue with the placement of the thumb-clusters. Initially it took me about two weeks to get fully comfortable with the board after switching from a traditional layout, but now I can't bring myself to use a traditional board and feel right at home with the EZ. I was almost tempted to get the Moonlander because of the adjustable tilting for the clusters but opted to stick with the EZ due to the layout of the cluster keys themselves.
Dude this channel is amazing!
Great review! The positive wrist angle can be a problem (hands pointing up when typing). So, I’m serious considering to drill holes in my desk to lower the placements of the keyboards.
Thank you for the video. One possible option for your elbow pain: I had elbow pain in both elbows that I learned was a result of golfer's elbow (not a golfer) and tennis elbow (not a tennis player). Earlier this year I started doing supinated and pronated wrist curls and after a few months the pain went away. Hope this helps.
The kinesis advantage has pretty much resolved my RSI issues. Nothing else has really helped, even after visiting with doctors and doing a few months of physical therapy.
should look into the glove 80 split, curved, keyb. I have also been looking into things like this and *some* (not all) but a decent amount of folks have said they left the kinesis FOR the glove 80 as they could get far more use cases out of it connecting to phones and tablets, typing comfortably on really any surface like carpet flooring or even in bed etc. Apparently really focuses on the most minimal finger movement possible for all the surrounding keys.
Nice vid! thanks :)
i use the adv360 for 3 month now. i can not imagine a other keyboard with so much comfort.
There are various ways to customize the moonlander and two 2 different ways to customize how you lay the keyboards on your desk. They have a metal platform now and a tri-pod system for all kinds of customization for comfort. Having those two options solved so much for me.
I agree… elbow pain means not enough tenting
I'm currently using the Glove80, which is a contoured ortholinear split keyboard w/ Bluetooth, a web configurator for key maps (ZMK firmware), screw legs for tenting, low profile mechanical switches, and lightweight.
I have it ordered. Can't wait.
@@bened22same! Hope you got yours and are enjoying it
How did you find it?
The Advantage 360 is better than the Moonlander for me. But the software is a let down even as a software developer, it took a good day to get my head around how to configure it to the point I was happy.
For a flatter profile, maybe look at some more niche options like the ferris sweep or a corne with choc switches.
after seeing this great video it seems like maybe a Ergodox EZ would be more your kink, built to be flat, but dont know about the stripping on those adjusters. Anyways I´m in the fun state of trying to decide for ergodox ez vs moonlander. Experience with ez?
You've got to try a dactyl manuform. I would suggest adding switches with light spring weight so there is less tension coming from your fingers
You can solve the multiple base layer issue at 28:30 by moving both of the base layers at the bottom, for example
0: qwerty
1: colemak
2: raise
3: lower
4: config
The reason being that the *active layers are a bit mask*, with the highest activated one having the highest priority.
I haven't used the Oryx configurator, but I'm disappointed if it doesn't notify you when you create a key that would switch backwards ending up looking like it does nothing.
You _could_ switch the other way around, but then you would need to disable instead of enable layers while keeping track of the layer(s) you disable so you can re-enable them on release, and the (transparent) key you release on the switched layer wouldn't be the same key either since you disabled the layer it's from...
All of this comes for free when you always hold-to-enable a higher layer instead.
Years ago with debilitating RSI, the old Kinesis Advantage 2 was LIFE CHANGING.
Went from extreme pain after less than an hour of typing, to ZERO pain and discomfort almost overnight.
These days I spend less time on the keyboard, and solved other heatlh issues that may have been related like extreme vitamin D deficiency (affects calcium processing in the body and thus bone and joint health) so I haven't been using it much lately, but the new thinner split design of the 360 looks really good.
The 3D key-wells is a big improvement on just going with a split keyboard like moonlander.
Kinesis advantage 2 original has slightly better keywell design than 360 I have heard, but havent verified,
The arrow keys layout is pretty sucky on the advantage 2
Need to take the D with K2
Some minor corrections:
- The different light thing is because the colors being used aren't actually the same - The software "buckets" different ranges of colors into a the same name since otherwise you would need a gazillion names to account for all the different hex-codes - If you copy the specif code being used, you should get the same color.
- The layering/colemak thing is possible but I see others have already commended/you're aware.
Sounds like cubital tunnel and as someone with both carpel and cubital tunnel, I really appreciated your video. I tend to go for diy options like the Corne and Lily58. It's nice to see someone talking about this health issue. I don't think people realize what a toll typing on a standard staggered keyboard can take on your arms and hands.
I had this same issue too where my wrist pain went away but my elbows and shoulders took a hit. Have you tried adjusting your chair height? Ive noticed that these ergo keyboards had sat higher than my other keyboards and what this did in turn was have my hands higher than my elbows. Finding a setup where my arms were 90 degrees completely fixed this issue for me. There may be a more comfortable angle for you, but my guess is that your hands were much higher than your elbows when sitting
I keep my arms at a 90 degree angle when typing, but the way my elbow rests on my chair arms definitely contributes to my problem. Keyboards are expensive, but good chairs are even more expensive (unless I can find something decent second hand) 😅. One thing at a time unfortunately $$$.
Nailed it on the head, as a Hybrid worker being able to port around my Moonlander is such a joy.
You can definitely have alt layouts like Colemak on their own layer and still access your other layers like symbols, numbers, etc. The key is you have to put layers that you want to be able to toggle to below other layers you want to be able to switch to. For example on my Voyager (also uses Oryx), I have my qwerty on layer 0, my alt layout (ISRT) on layer 1, then all my other layers above those. Doing this I can switch to higher layers from ISRT.
Yeah, I figured this out after making this video and mention it in a follow up video.
I've been actively using both Moonlander (at home) and Kinesis 360 pro (in office) for the most part of a year now, and for me the Kinesis is definitely more comfortable to use.
Due to my very custom layout I couldn't really use the visual programmers so i had to use the low level programming, and I found programming the keyboard with ZMK (Kinesis) a slightly better experience than QMK (Moonlander)
The main drawback with the Kinesis is that it is bulkier to transport and that it relies on wireless communication, which i find inferior to good ol wires.
I had same issue as you had with RSI, burning feelings, went through the keyboard rabiit hole, now I have a normal Keychron Q1 PRO with wrist rest, and no issues what so ever, tried kinesis, split , dygma, all that stuff, I even use normal mouse now, the key was training my forearm mucles to resist longer, like training for a marathon. Now I can deffo last longer.
I figured the tenting would make it uncomfortable. I am planning to get a Dygma Defy as my first split keyboard. It is more expensive but supports BT and multiple devices. Its thumb cluster is at level with the rest of the keyboard.
Update: The Dygma defy addresses most of your concerns. (not paid ad 😂), just my research to create a sustainable and less painful coding environment for my self. But won't be shipping until Aug I guess.
I wanted to get something for my summer internship and I wouldn't get the defy until it ended, lol.
Hi, I am also an IT Engineer and I had much pain on a specific muscle near my scapula + wrist + finger joint + shoulder and neck. I'm now trying new keyboards (borrowed from a friend) and your video helped me understand quite a few things about them. Thanks! A new thing I'm also trying (and do recommend to some) is to try on a more plant-based diet, as many of us have some inflammatory triggers with meat that we don't even know about. Eating less meat (I've reduced around 70% now) is contributing to having less pain -- But yeah I still need a new keyboard as well. Thanks and hope we can all keep pain-free and happy with our jobs :D
I feel that the Platform accessory ZSA sells for the Moonlander would fix a lot of your gripes. It's not cheap unfortunately.
I sprung for the platform for the tenting kit it feels good defiantly better than without. Though albeit if you're traveling around with it then I think it's a hard no as it doesn't fold without resetting the wing and I'm not about to use an wrench every time I move. Also if you don't have a desk mat they will move over time if you using a wooden desk with any coating.
Have you considered 'Truly Ergonomic'? Also, as much as I enjoyed my loud Model M and Das (actually, I still like the DK), I try to spend more time on keyboards that require minimal actuation force to help reduce.
Try akko cs silver switch if you would like something with less travel. it is a long pole switch with 3mm total travel compared to most probably 4mm travel in the browns you have there. pretty sure there are other brands, I just didn't look for such a short travel distance :)
Twiddler3 saved my career as a developer. I type with my arms at my side, elbows straight. I will be trying Tapwithus, wrist version, when it arrives in Aug.
Love my Moonlander but i find it a bit large. Kinesis Advantage is big but crazy comfortable
LOL ... same thing happened to me. About 11-12 years ago I had a horrid project + pretty much 2 jobs. ... 16-18+ hour days for a couple of months :(
And I had an Apple keyboard. ... and I developed a shoulder/neck pain so bad I thought I was game over. I couldn't sit, lift, sleep, it was a non-stop horrid pain.
I figured that a "normal keyboard" is probably not a great fit for my height/broad shoulders and monkey arms..
Some searches later .....
I went with a Kinesis Advantage, and after the initial rage the getting used to period causes, I am stuck on it. I love it. It literally saved me....
I tried an ergodox (actually built one), but it doesn't touch the Kinesis' key-well design.
Now I am tempted to get the 360 pro.
I have a huge head, so it's very difficult for me to find the right typing position for long term use. I love the Kinesis 360!
maybe it's not a matter of what keyboard but instead what switch layout is used e.g. staggered, columnar, ortho, or Alice style, I used to have the ortho like Planck but then move to columnar since for me it has less effort to type on, sometimes I use Reviung41LP or CorneLP as a daily driver, one of my tricks is to not use a high profile keyboard, low profile is a good option to have more natural movement on the wrist
I've always used the Logitech Wave keyboard and have been thinking about switching to one of those keyboards..
Have you tried or considered the Dygma keyboard, I am deabiting on getting one myself?
If elbows are the problem I wonder if you might be able to strap the moonlander halves to your legs (slightly anterior and lateral to your knees?).. I wonder if moving your legs in different positions as you work would reduce the time of your body spent in any position?
I had a Moonlander for a year and I couldn't stand the thumb cluster. Only two of the piano keys was useable for me, and the red triangle was awkward to press. Pretty much every ergo keyboard has the thumb cluster start just after the "B" key, which makes me stretch out my thumb farther than I would like to. I switched to the Dactyl Manuform, and IMO it's the best thumb cluster I've ever used. It starts in the middle of the "V" key, making it 1 and 1/2 keys closer. It's also sculpted in such a way it feels natural for the thumb. I got pretty lucky with the stock working out, but it can also be adjusted to fit better. I'll probably play with that when I get a 3D printer and have time.
I have my shift on left bottom thumb, space middle thumb, backspace above space.
I'm watching this right now with a burning pain in my left forearm from using the moonlander to write. Been using it for almost 2 years now, and this pain has been getting worse for the last few months. Didn't use to happen, not at all, but now it won't stop happening. Really love my moonlander, but it's getting bad. No matter how I move things, it won't stop hurting when I get to typing.
I have a moonlander, I've not really adapted to it yet, but I have to say, the software is completely kick ass.
I used ergodox for 10 years straight, and always did not like thumb cluster. But recently it began to die and i switched to cantor keyboard and for my thumbs it's much better, but alas, too few keys for my liking. Now I'm going to assembly some kind of Dactyl-manuform.
really glad i went with the voyager
a 3D-printed base that fixes the tenting might be a good idea, once you want the tenting to be a certain way ..
I love it, using Colemak DV. I have layers for Blender, Zbrush, 3ds Max, gaming on the right side. After 40 years of coding I'm lucky enough not to have any arm pain.
😍
I’ve also been using an Apple Bluetooth keyboard. I code all day between work and personal projects.
The Bluetooth apple keyboard, after a whole, makes my finger tips hurt, wrist discomfort, and a touch of elbow pain.
Just bought the moon lander
I feel pain just by looking at poeple using the apple magic keyboard and mouse.
I'm a network engineer with a misdiagnosed finger, wrist, and elbow pain that ultimately led to cubital, carpal, and trigger finger/thumb surgeries a few weeks ago. I am facing identical surgeries on my left arm in a few weeks. Return to work recovery is a couple of weeks per arm but return to fun is 12+ weeks per arm. Your arms are investments. Protect them now or suffer later.
Yea build quality was a big issue for me. The thumb module broke off after a year, the full weight of the keyboard is held by that thin plastic, and you can't really use it without the module. Their site says you can order parts from customer service but after getting the run around from their customer service they have now told me that they won't sell parts or support the keyboard past the initial purchase.
Kinesis Advantage2 user here, drooling at Advantage 360. Switched ten years ago (it was Advantage1 back then,) when I started developing discomfort in my right wrist; which discomfort was gone since. I also dumped mouse for a trackball, which I control by my non-dominant, left hand.
I have Ergodox EZ (Moonlander predecessor) collecting dust somewhere, did not work for me. Looks like the curvature, the Advantage distinctive feature (let's pay tribute to Maltron who I think invented the keywell, and there was unpleasant IP quarrel I recall) is important.
That said, Kinesis is lightyears behind in programmability, and barely qualifies as a programmable keyboard; but that limited programmability has worked for me so far.
A couple of times I thought I ruined my keyboard by lodging a crumb somewhere in the switch; and desoldering Advantage to replace a switch is not for the faint of heart. Would nether be a problem with hot-swappable keyboard like Moonlander.
I’ve been using an Advantage for ~15 years now. I got the 360 Pro when it first released. It’s fully customizable / programmable using ZMK, which has advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, being able to fully customize the layout is a huge win over the old Advatage on-board keymapping; but it is a bigger learning curve to understand how to customize it and flash the keyboard. I have changes I want to make to my firmware, but haven’t had time to spend configuring, flashing, testing, etc.
I feel the pain buddy. Brutal.
Hey there dude, software engineer that ran across this as I'm looking to up my keyboard game. I did wanna suggest for RSI finding a really good massagist or physical therapist (not chiropractor). I had really bad tennis elbow from jiu jitsu as we do a lot of gripping. You want massage that really, kinda hurts to make a difference and the PT or massagist should give you homework. In my experience wrist, forearm and a lot of pain in general is about tightness elsewhere in the chain. For me correcting posture and stretching my chest and biceps every day has kept all RSI, tennis elbow etc away. Just something to look into, it worked for me.
Have you considered the Designer 68 keyboard by VEXC How?
IMHO, it’s the only concave ergo split keyboard with hot swappable keys. I actually had a conversation with ZSA about going concave, but to no avail yet.
Hi, from the pain that you are desribing it sounds like you do not only have RSI but Carpal tunnel syndrom. Talking from experience here (did the surgery on both hands): The symptons from carpal tunnel snydrom radiate into your forearms and elbow, since it's coming from the nerve. Sounds exactly like what you are describing
From my experience, most of the people suffering from wrist pain are the ones who learn to type with all 10 fingers. You know, placing them firmly at ASDF and JKL; keys. This makes your wrist feel uncomfortable, and retaining this position for long time will strain your hand.
I usually type with random fingers, whichever comes natural at the moment, and never had any issue. My WPM is around 40 - it may be not that great, but I don't feel like it is a bottleneck in my programming.
If you’re into low profile like me, have you considered Glove80?
I really only considered the Kinesis since based on my research, it appeared to be the most likely keyboard to help with RSI.
I use the ergodox ez. I had to get two of them to keep one at work and one at home
You angle the two halfs in the "wrong" direction (space in the middle normally would be like an A-shape and not V-shape). I think this is a (maybe even major) contributor to your RSI problems.
Good observation. I have a few thoughts on this, probably enough for a dedicated video. But I think calling it a *major* contributor to my RSI would be overstating things a bit, mainly because my keyboard wasn't in its normal position in order to get a closer shot of the keyboard while keeping things in-frame for the video. Plus the root of my RSI stems from a sports injury. But thanks for pointing this out, would be good to address in a follow-up video.
@@ifcodingwerenatural Ah, then this is a different story, I was assuming that this is the typical position you use your keyboard. I also did not state that it _is_ a major contributor, but it _could_ possibly be. I am sorry for your injury and hope it can get better over time.
I learned the columnar (this is not ortholinear, the Planck is) in 20 hours of training, compressed in one weekend. I went from my normal 90 - 100 wps down to 20 and then I only stopped training when I reached at least 70. Then the next week would complete my training back to 100. This keyboard shows what kind of person you are, separting those that can train oneself hard and those who can't.
Eu gostaria de saber a sua opinião sobre a ergonomia do Planck. Eu sei que pelo tamanho e pelo fato de não ser split, pode acabar encomendando em longos períodos de digitação. Entretanto, eu para a minha idade 20, tenho alguma condição e acabo sendo pequeno demais para a minha idade. Ou seja, tenho mãos muito pequenas e a distância entre os meus ombros não é tão grande.
Onde quero chegar: Eu digito por hobby, e sou entusiasta quando se trata desse assunto. Em cenários de laboratório (com você diz no seu vídeo, XD), eu costumo digitar cerca de 110/120 WPM (testes em português com acento), porém, já testei diversos layouts, diversas técnicas e a que estou interessado no momento é a que você crítica no seu vídeo (ao estilo charachorder e estenotipia).
Eu basicamente tenho usado um programa opensource chamado ZipChord para criar os chords e criei um bom dicionário para isso, criando casos e modificações para diversas situações do português (todos esses casos com os verbos que a gente sabe que tem ksksk, são muitos a propósito).
Enfim, acho que o ortholinear seria o ideal, pelo fato de que fazer esse tipo de coisa acaba sendo um pouco mais difícil com as teclas desalinhadas. Apertar certas combinações acabam exigindo uma atenção maior do que seria necessário.
Pesquisando bastante, só vejo reclamações na questão do Planck, pelo fato de não ser nada ergonômico. Você acha tão ruim assim? Você acha que alguém como eu (considere como se eu fosse uma criança pequena mesmo kkk) acabaria por ter dores em longas sessões, mesmo depois de um longo período de adaptação?
You can always use a syringe and inject lube into soldered switches.
Well I still think the original Ergodox EZ is the best. I've been using mine since 2016 and it hasn't skipped a beat. I've tried other keyboards but I just keep coming back to the Ergodox EZ.
Would you recommend the Moonlander for a beginner?
If by "beginner" you mean someone new to split mechanical keyboards with thumbclusters, then yes.
@@ifcodingwerenatural Exactly
I recommend to try a
Hey, a y chance you are selling that keyboard cheap?😅 I do really want to check out this type of keyboard but can't really afford it
People have trouble with basic ortho-linear muscle memory or is it that theyre dealing with new changed key placements??
Id leave it all in the standard locations for typing but i already left hand ortho everything i cant imagine having any trouble with the right. Luckily this thing would be easy to adjust to like any other keyboard. Unluckily ill never afford this thing 😭naw im just gonna make my own piece by piece cuz thats way more fun and personal/custom.
i feel like the moonlander's thumbs are just to hard to use.. i recently had a chance to use a defy for a week.... i purchased one, the moonlander needs to fix its thumb keys... its hard to use and not worth the discomfort to use them.
I bought Corne keyboard last year and it is amazing, especially if you know C programming. Because Moonlander is powerful in programming, but qmk programming is much more powerful
as a moonlander user, only half way into the video I at least agree with 95% of what u said, if not 100%.
finished the video, love your sharing! agree!
Oh, and have you thought about getting a Dactyl that's custom to your hands? They are hotswap MX or Choc and the same price or cheaper than the Moonlander.
My right wrist hurts just from watching you twist your arm so hard just to reach the right shitf with a keyboard where everything can be set.
If you want the platform I have one for sale as I did not like it.......tenting is not for me. :-)
Take off the watch, do hand exercises, work on shoulder opening and posture exercises, get a chiro or bone setter to look at shoulders and elbows and wrists... Easy to fix "RSI," the problem is no one listens.
The top of your hand and your forearm should not be more than 120degrees (flat), ideally slightly less. Your elbows need to be below your shoulders and your hands need to be below your elbows (or as close as possible to that).
You can skip all of this and never get RSI if you find a proper qigong teacher and learn to release and breath into any part of your body.
get clay from the mine ... not from your garden :) ... put a good amount on your hands and elbows and wristles ... you ll get better and better .. pray too
I want programmability and layout customisability, but fuck mechanical switches. They suck. Why can't some company create individual keys that are the same as modern laptops or Apple keyboards? I want those thin, not-loud, short-travel keys. If only I could buy those keys and assemble them the way I like, like mechanical keyboards....
bailing on the moonlander is the new buying a moonlander
More like a tearful departure
@@ifcodingwerenatural hope the kinesis fixes your wrists bud 🙂 thanks for the well thought out video
If you typing is the same as in the last part of the video, no wonder your arms hurt........
It's not :). My keyboard wasn't in its normal position in order to get a close up shot while keeping things in frame for the video. The angle is bad, but not how I normally type.
be prepared when you encounter bluetooth and firmware issues. kinesis charge an arm and a leg for this but they are completely in over their heads supporting this. They actually outsourced the initial engineering and are incapable themselves of fixing anything. They also will not honor the warranty for firmware issues, even if they can't fix them.
I've encountered bluetooth issues almost daily since getting the kinesis. I'm still using it because it's been so much better for my RSI, but the user experience has been a disappointment. Haven't had any firmware issues yet thankfully, but I'm not feeling super confident it'll stay that way 😅.
You need to work out and strength the arm muscles.
No not Bluetooth it is often unreliable. But what it is always: unsecure. No way i am typing passwords in a crowded place into a bluetooth Keyboard. When you read what pentesters say: it is secure but you have to: And then comes a very disheartening list of things i will not do. So no bluetooth..
Man I can barely understand this comment
Look at home Bluetooth works, eavesdropping on it would be hard if not impossible. Always channel hopping+ frequent key exchange (at least in the newer version of the protocol) and encryption changing for each packet, seems secured if not more than a cable to me (considering taping a cable is easier)
Who types passwords anymore? Lol. Use a password manager, which you should be using anyway since it's 100% free nowadays, and all your problems are solved.
@@americoperez810 You are so smart. Just that a Keyboard has access to the clippboard. Uh bad...
PS A naive approach to password managers is not good also 80% of them are insecure like Keypass and others...
@@peterlustig87781) I've never heard of a keyboard storing/sending any data from the clipboard. That's all usually handled by the OS of the machine. Do you have a link or anything that confirms your claim?
2) we're talking about communication over Bluetooth. As far as I understand, the only data you would be sending over Bluetooth is keyboard strokes, which if you're using a password manager, should at most be Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V.
3) Password Managers may not be 100% secure but, again, in the context of communication over Bluetooth, it mute point because your password manager isn't sending password to other devices over Bluetooth.
not to be that asshole, but i feel i need to share this.... the only thing that will fix your pain in your arms is exercise! had this same issue for 9 years and tried a million different things to do anything to avoid doing exercise... and i finally caved in and just did exercise... and yes it worked.
🤢🤢🤢🤢 apple keyboard??? For real???