Why I'm giving up on my Moonlander Keyboard after 6 months of use
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- Clearly it's not for everyone.
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Wow that's crazy, all the things you pointed out are why I love it. I usually think pretty carefully about my keyboard layouts, so the problem you had with constantly modifying it has never popped up. If anything I think it's a great problem to have, especially if you're able to change something on your keyboard that bothers you. The gui modifier is fantastic to change things like this on the fly.
It's interesting to see someone else's opinion, nice video!
I so wanted to love this keyboard and know multiple people that swear by it. And I had months to think of the Initial layout before it arrived. And then you learn a lot while using it. Like the red buttons being near unreachable so you adjust.
My replacement is still going to have a programmable option, just a more fixed base layout.
Thanks for watching!
Same here, never had the problem of too many modifications. I just started with the actual default layout that it shipped with and slowly adjusting it like one change every 1-3 days so my muscle memory has time to adjust.
I feel like it’s better to stick with your inefficient layout than to have to relearn too much too quickly.
As for portability, agree it’s suboptimal for meetings. But I definitely do take it with me if I’m going to be working for a while at some table. Otherwise there is also the EZ Planck which takes less spaces
@@toolsontech I think the reason why it didn't work for you is, you tried to cut corners a bit and reuse your ergo keyboard motor skills, which is completely understandable. But you ended up trying to emulate your ergo keyboard with a split keyboard which made the split keyboard a worse version of it. Almost all problems you cited can be attributed to it apart from fiddling with layers thing which is a consequence of (unhealthy) perfectionism and is something I'm guilty of myself and working on 😂
I've been using the moonlander for about 6 months as well. Learned Colemak on it and made the perfect layouts for coding and productivity. I also disagree with your problem with constantly modifying layouts. To me it's a game changer since it's up to the individual and his needs. I believe, if your constantly modifying than the root of the problem isn't the learning curve of the new layout, but the fact that you keep switching it. Constant change is bad to begin with. Really sit down and try to make the layouts to your needs. Love my layout and only modify it to add shortcuts, or when I learn new tricks, such as hitting one key to spit open tabs in half, or adding apps to one click shortcuts. Hope you stick with it. One thing I do agree with you is the beginning learning curve, but it's actually fun, typing isn't boring anymore XD.
You Thief! You stoled my comment! 😂 Translated: I perfectly agree with you, Colemak + Moonlander. After more than 6 months, Now I can type while I'm arguing with my wife😁I used for 3 months a Dactyl Manuformed, personal build KMK. But I returned like one month again to Moonlander. I agree with the adjustments, but I think, his mistake is to make big changes, mine are minor adjustments, is like trying to find that sweet spot. I've combined amethyst with some shortcuts on the keyboard that works great. No way I'm going back to a "regular" keyboard again. I have Planck from ZSA to that I use rarely when I'm on the go. But as a use for day to day: Colemak Split vertical ortholinear, with at least 4 layers, I have 9 layers on my Moonlander.🤓
I think this is the key point that people need to consider when making a new keyboard part of their setup. As someone that's used a minimalist ortho keyboard for many years at this point, I'm not going back to a regular staggered layout. I've gotten used to the layout and the 'layers' are the whole point of the trimmed down form factor. The Planck, for example is just as usable as most keyboards and it has 47 keys. There's no reason to worry about having enough keys because they are almost all accessible using a modifier key. I personally use a Preonic and I've never deviated from the stock configuration, it's a natural intuitive transition because the symbols are in the same relative location, just shifted down and under home row. -/_ and +/= are under "J" and "K" respectively and this is an easy adjustment.
I did attempt to use a regular ergodox for a bit and found the modifier keys annoyingly placed for smaller hands
@@nickmcpimpson The thing that stroked me like 3 years ago when I started the journey into the alternative keyboards was the phrase: "I would never go back to a regular staggered keyboard". Like 99% of comments on the matter had that sentence. I went pretty extreme on the matter: after almost 30 years of using qwerty and staggered classic keyboard, switched to colmak, ortholinear, split keyboard. I'm still learning cause the plasticity of my muscle memory is pretty rigid, 44 😁. But me too I can say the same thing: I would never go back to a classic staggered qwerty keyboard. And to stay in theme with the video: When you have too many options, start simple and stupid, whenever you wanna change something, do it, test it, it may not be ok, return to the original and then make other small steps changes. You're not losing time with the changes and adjustments, you're investing time in your productivity, maybe years later. If the "Keyboard" is not part of your job like at least 40%, maybe, but maybe do not bother. Otherwise... Arguing with your wife while you watch her and you keep typing... PRICELESS 😂
Regarding the learning curve, I also changed the keyboard layout to bone2. That was the hell!! But I got through it and still changed all the keyboard bindings for each game. But I love it. My angles feel much better since I switched to this keyboard.
I am absolutely agree with this comment as well. For me this video sounds like "I have money and I just want to try another keyboard so here you have the context I give to myself to throw 500$ keyboard"
You have angered the moonlanders .... now you must read walls of comfortably written text!!!
Most hilarious comment yet
My wife got it and my main issue is like you said, if you hit it slightly it moves and you have to readjust. You can buy the platform for a more solid mount though.
7:40, totally agree. Thanks for the video
When I was younger, the first keyboard on the market that was similar to this was the Nostromo n52, which these remind me of. I loved that thing, but it was a hassle for 2 months, trying to go back to a regular keyboard.
Something I've been using as a transitional tool in preparation for additional layers on the Moonlander is TouchCursor in Windows (I think there's an equivalent for Mac / Linux?). Holding down my spacebar functions like a "Function" key on a laptop, giving me an extra layer on my regular keyboard - and brings all the other keys that I use frequently, right under and next to my home row. I use my right hand for my trackball (Elecom Huge, wonderful so far) - so to balance out the workload, I moved a number pad under my left hand (I do a lot of numbers entry), have arrow keys under my right home row, plus all the extras - Insert, Delete, Home, End, etc... right where I can easily reach them without moving my hands from the home position - even gave me something to do with my Caps Lock key. It feels fantastic - the only thing I move my hand for is to use the trackball.
Designing and learning this extra layer on the board has been an iterative process, lots of tweaking like he's describing on the Moonlander - but I can take the config file onto any machine running TouchCursor and have the same experience. I think this has been a really invaluable transitional tool for moving into layers on a mechanical keyboard, and a rewarding journey. For some extra background, I have been typing a Dvorak layout for around 15 years (had some RSI issues in college, this shift away from Qwerty cleared it up for me) and have been using a Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard for a while - so reprogramming my mind's keymap is something I had some experience with. Taking inspiration from Ben Vallack's UA-cam videos, I got a Moonlander and am currently working on a 20-key layout (based on ISRT) to minimize finger travel as much as possible.
that's what is all about. this is the way the moonlander reveals its power.
I am neither a programmer, nor a person with knowledge or interest on keyboards. However, I started having issues with carpal tunnel. I bought my first moonlander as a way to reduce the wrist pain. It actually helped alot. I set it up in a way that by pressing twice in the numbers, they give you the symbols. I travel alot ( every week). it is true that you cannot use it while traveling, but I do use it in meetings, it became quite efficient. Now I have just bought a second one, that one will stay in my office, and the first one for home. I think your points are totally valid, but I would still use at least half of it for gaming, if I were your. cheers.
So glad it helped, I'm lucky enough that I don't have wrist pain even with all my computer use. Lot's of people gave awesome ideas here however so I might be giving it a second look with a radical layout. Just for the fun of it. Double tap for symbols sounds like a cool idea, might toy with that as well!
@@toolsontech While I may disagree with basically all your points, I highly respect your sharing them and ability to explain your feelings on it. Articulating things can be difficult so props! :)
@@BiosElement Thanks for compliment, that was my aim in the video to convey my thoughts knowing full well people would have a different experience.
You hit the same number to get the associated symbol with that key? Uh...isn't there a very big issue when you have to enter something like 22?
Moonlander just arrived. Flashed to Colmak DH and loving it for coding . Planning layers for the right side for Blender, Zbrush, Maya, Substance Painter. Left hand operates Wacom pen.
I've been pretty happy with the default layout, I've made a few mods now, namely, having another layer for working on Mac laptops/Mac Mini.
I used the Cloud Nine, I love it so much I got two of them, and is not as pricey still split, mecanical and I dont need to rewire my brain all around, besides the cloud nine comes with the numpad too
When I changed keyboards a bit over a year ago I was switching to ortho and a much smaller keyboard so I decide to switch layouts to something new as well. I decided that if I was going to go through the learning curve of a new board, I might as well try something more radical and get the pain all done an over with at once. After I had about a month of practice on it I was still bad but getting better and I started using the qwerty board at work so that I would retain those skills as well as the new ones I was developing. Overall I've had a great time with it, and can't wait to go split board since that's largely how my layout exists now. I hope that all these months later you've found something you love to type with.
I've been a user of many crazy keyboards. Including a Mathis half keyboard. I just switched from a full sized to an Alice 60% and I'm debating how much I'll dislike loosing the Home and End keys to the manufacture's weird Fn shortcut. It does not help that it's a one FN key board and two keys inexplicably on the same side of the Fn key. It's looking like a job for Autohotkey to make the page up and page down keys pull extra duty... I guess I'm agreeing it's the little things that will break you when losing all the extra keys on a full sized layout.
Same problem, I need to take my laptop everywhere is annoying to set up, end up going back to kinesis adventage 2 or a bluetooth keyboard it depend what I'm feeling. I move a lot but is me using the laptop at home or at work place so I'm not realy worry about taking up lot of space.
I love the Moonlander, but if there is a v2, I hope they just give us more keys. Function keys and navigation keys. Layers are great, but the more you have to use them the more unnecessary key presses there are. Comfort is great, but practicality is important too.
Good insights. I think you saved me a bunch money!
I also went from a kinda natural keyboard (Alice/Arisu layout) to a Moonlander and I do not share your experience in regard to the additional keys towards the inner sides of the split parts. I just have some more keys in the middle. But I completely understand your wish to move it all one column towards the center to get a similar configuration as on a natural keyboard. I have set up my Moonlander really wide, ever so slightly wider than shoulder width, and I angle the split parts very slightly outward, only a few degrees. The main reason for getting the Moonlander is my CTS in both wrists, RSI in my right arm, and my back/shoulder/neck pain. Having it set up at shoulder width with tenting is so much better for me. Also, I'm using a vertical mouse that I have put right in front of me, between the two keyboard parts. This is also a way more relaxed mouse position for me personally.
The mouse in the middle is what I miss the most when not using a split keyboard. I mostly focused on usage, for things like CTS this thing is excellent especially with the tenting.
Did you try the Tap-XR? It would work fine on the train.
you should try the uhk v2 I think it is more intuitive coming from regular or laptop keyboards
Always looking for alternatives, I'll give it a look!
Mine broke after a year of use, the plastics around the thumb module are really thin and break. No worries I thought and tried to order a replacement part but if your board is out of warranty they refuse to sell you the part. They have a blog post claiming they support your right to repair but try contacting support and after a bit of run around they will admit they won't sell parts.
Ouch, that feels really bad. Especially since the thumb keys are unique and can't really easily be gotten elsewhere.
Honestly after modifying my Moonlander a lot, I eventually stopped. There was just no more need to modify as I reached the peak of what I wanted. One things I go into my layout now is to add new functionality. I feel the only keyboard that I would even consider outside of Moonlander now is one with either more thumb keys or one where each key has a screen which would make some stuff that I don't remember by memory easier to understand.
local maxima.
I had the same thing. Initially I put the plus on the bottom row of the left keyboard,and the minus on the right. I love my layout. Even have an underscore on the right cluster to use like my space on the left. I couldn’t get the dual functions to work well with my typing style so I put layer keys near my function keys.
Put control where caps usually is, then caps on a second layer with function keys.
I’ve had my moonlander for 6months too and it’s one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. All my hand and forearm pain has gone away, I’ve learned colemak and I enjoy typing on it.
Excellent, it's a good keyboard no doubt. Glad it helped!
Another one with Colemak and Moonlander. Love you bro! 🥰
interesting, my forearms are super tense to a point i can't type
@@liviu8603 went from 40wpm hunting + pecking QWERTY to 13wpm. I’m up to 54wpm.
Well, I change keyboards about as often as I change my underwear. What I've done in the past if the finger positioning bump is not there or not pronounced enough is to add a little dab of clear super glue to create a bump. I did this with the Ferris sweep and gergoplex. I understand why you don't like the moonlander and if I was in your position I might feel the same. You can however, adjust the key layout on any Windows machine to be more similar to your detached keyboard so they'll be less back and forth. I do love the moonlander software and tinkering so we differ in that.
Great idea!
How much would you put it on marktplaats for? Have you looked into Alice keyboards? Something like Feker Alice 80?
I would say around 350-400 euro, in NL shipping is a large part of the cost. And I got extra parts I ordered. Will probably offer people to try some switches because I already got way to many options lying around the studio 😅
The feker alice 80 is on my shortlist, really want to give that a try as it seems to fix my personal issues with this one.
I found the exact same thing, when programming screwing around with layers and symbol keys would continually break my concentration...it's very frustrating...in typing tests it's fine, a bit slower, but in actual use it was infuriating...I also had the same issue with small changes in the angle of the split boards...I was using a piantor pro, so it was even fewer keys then the moonlander...I also found the tight spacing and limited travel of the keys made it more difficult for me to type without errors
Didn't even mention that, but the concentration break when I had to look for a special key was real. And much harder to train because it was an infrequent key.
Thank you, this is all I need to stop thinking about purchasing split keyboard for myself. I foresee the same problems after 20 years of coding with regular keyboards.
It’s cool if you didn’t develop rsi. Any thing in particular do you do to avoid rsi / carpal tunnel? 20 years is a long time.
I think the main thing I got lucky with was that my mom send me to learn "proper" 10 finger blind typing. That means I started out with less travel and mistakes when I got started and resulted in my switching to natural keyboards when I was 20 or so for most use cases. That stuff compounds over a longer time. So main tip would be, don't wait till you got issues.
I use azerty layout on my moonlander, because regularly working with normal azerty keyboards as a consultant is inevitable, so i just stick with regular layout. so far, i am very pleased with the ergonomic advantage of the moonlander (even though, it is not perfect as has been pointed out by others, the vertical stagering of the keys could be more aggressive to take into account the finger length of the pinkies)
I'm using a MS ergo, had the original white one too many years ago. Looking for a mechanical ergo. Ordering one now, it was this or an Alice style, but I want tenting.
If you didn't get the alice, what did you get? Not that I need another keyboard but you know...
@@toolsontech ZSA Moonlander cheery red linear keys. Should be here 6 days.
very honest review
Glad that was the takeaway, was the aim when I was making it.
I do a lot of 3D work and code. Using a Razor Tartarus atm to bind hotkey to keys. I have different layouts to remember for Blender, Zbrush,3dCoat, Maya, Max, Substance Painter. I believe this KB would make life easier using Layers .A layer for Blender modelling, one for animation etc etc.
If the Razor can't do layers that's a bit of a shame, using just the left half and a mouse is amazing in Davinci Resolve, didn't try it in Blender but I only do very light work in there.
@@toolsontech what I do is set the 4 way switch to different profiles.
Too bad this keyboard didn’t work out for you. But hey, at least now you know! Thanks for the helpful review!
Thanks for steering me out of the rabbit hole of constant keyboard tweaking. I also use MS Natural 4000 and MS Sculpt and can see how the keys in the middle would be a deal breaker.
using a MS sculpt atm, also had the original white one. But I do a lot of 3D work so having layers would be very useful.
@@sqwert654 Sorry what do you mean by layers?
@@angelicannihilator Layers are used to change what windows sees when a key is pressed. It could be a single character or something like Ctrl+Z. On your base layeer you assign keys to activate other layers as a toggle or while holding down
@@angelicannihilator I have a layer for gaming on the right side, a 3ds Max layer, Blender layer. I just Bing the original hotkeys to whatever key I want. That way I don't have to change binds in the software I'm using
the greatest part of it was the adjustable thumb buttons, some reason though my screw froze and now I stripped the Allan wrench slot and even trying to wrench the screw I can't loosen it to adjust the thumb pad anymore without breaking the cheap plastic which cost me 300$
Ah man, that sucks. Did you reach out to support? From what I read they have replacement parts so you can fix it for hopefully a lot less.
I ordered the New dygma defy some days ago, integrated tenting, wireless and a good case to be mobile was my main points to go for this one
Omg, if I had known about this one before I got the Moonlander I would have probably picked this. Less wires for the win.
@@toolsontech like All other buyers i have to wait 3 more months, but the certification was passed 2 weeks ago, there are no more roadblocks ahead
@@christiand3560 unfortunately it's more like 6 months now. I just got tired of waiting for the Defy and ordered a Corne today.
Did you receive the dygma?
if you still want split but want more of a traditional key layout try the dygma raise but that is a 60% keyboard and you can get a tending kit with it too to make it tilt..
i went from a normal 100% to the raise with split and i just love it
I'm currently on a Feker Alice 80, that scratches my natural keyboard/mechanical feel itch for now. But the Dygma looks super nice so I'm adding it to my shortlist in the life long quest of finding a perfect keyboard. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@toolsontech Any update on this quest?
@@dasdos002 Yeah, I got offered to try the Nocfree split keyboard, it uses a non linear layout and that works perfectly for me. It's still not perfect but for me it strikes a balance to being able to work right away and tweak it a bit without me constantly trying to re-invent the wheel.
I also felt like this, im a programmer so i use all my keys. I bought blanks and now I use 36keys over two layers. its okay to hate it for a long time, just practice 10-20 mins aday on blank keys. You will smash it!
I ordered one a few weeks ago and I'm so pumped to use it for programming. Do you have any good suggestions for layers?
In my experience less layers is better, I would mostly focus on a navigation layer (arrow, pgup down, home end, te works) and symbols layer
For the red buttons I recommend the return key. It's one you don't use often so the extra travel isn't a problem and actually added thinking time anytime i was about to commit (like a bash prompt)
Also,make every layer light up in a color, made it super easy to know on what layer I was.
@@jonnylake4643 lookup the miryoku layout, that’s what I ended up with (or rather be inspired by)
@@bricecarpentier5817 Oh, that looks interesting as well. While I still got the Moonlander I'm going to give that a go
@@toolsontech if you like the miryoku, you'll probably like Minimal by zanfur (search for the "zanfur" tag in oryx). It's a setup pretty similar to miryoku with homerow mods but optimized for the things you mentioned in the video like numpad and sensible nav clusters and remembering where the darn hyphen is.
Just a small tip for the screen size (I know it' just one of the issues, but still :P) Ctrl + scroll wheel on the mouse (and just Ctrl + 0 to reset).
That always happens on accident for me, but good point should practice and get it in my system!
I really can't get on with split keyboards at all. I'm currently using a Razer BlackWidow V3 65% and loving it. Not too noisy either.
Super nice keyboard, yeah split is definitely not for everyone
All the cons that he mentioned are the same ones I have with my sofle keyboard right now I am thinking on selling my split keyboard and return to the TKL layout!
Finding the keyboard that is right for you is a never ending quest it feels like
Great video! Greetings from Amersfoort.
Local people! Always awesome
noooo, sad that it didn't work fully for you Bas. I'm still in love with the Iris tbh 🤷♂️
Iris looks super sweet, solves part of my issues looking at it. But got the alice 80 on it's way, bare bones cause I'm one of those people that just has enough switches in stock now 😅
Just for the Intro you deserved my Subscription and a Like.
So much fun to make, unfortunately not good for the algorithm though. Will keep making them!
I am 63 and I needed something to work my brain which this certainly does and after a couple of minutes I am teaching my brain where the keys are. It is pretty funny how long it took me to type this however I am certainly getting faster as I go. I cannot say that I will be able to type without looking but who knows. LOL
Yeah, my main experience is that keys that are used frequently will eventually become second nature but it's mostly the infrequent uses that will take a long time. It all used to be so much faster to learn but still not sure if that's due to getting older or the fact that we have so many things running side by side as we get older.
funnny... it took me a solid 6 months of tweaking and practice to get properly comfortable with it. i'm 2 years in now and i can never go back. it has doubled my typing speed and actually made me a better typist on regular keyboards
Glad it worked out for you!
ergodox/moonlander user for like 5 years here. ergomech is the way, typos are simply weakness leaving the body
Typos for me is a sign I'm trying to trade speed for accuracy. A losing race for sure.
Interesting. I code and used a natural keyboard before and have hardly any of the issues you bring up. I switched to neo2 while on natural, found no layout that was a close match, or that I could understand, so I built my own based on one. Fairly happy, got the "oh where is that seldom used key" problem occasionally but not for plus and minus. After watching some vids I think I need to change my layer switching system. Oh, and add a qwertz layer just for games where I'm to lazy to adjust or the keybindings get cloudsynced to the laptop which would be bad.
The Kinesis Advantage360 Professional may be for you, then. I have been using the Advantage keyboards for a decade already.
Oh, that looks amazing. Going on the short list. Had a co-worker that had something similar but attached and I believe I looked at that when I was doing research but that bulky size made it impossible to bring with me. Not having a car limits the options somewhat. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@toolsontech The concave keywells on the Kinesis Advantage keyboards put them on different category altogether. The level of comfort that it brings can’t be overstated. Carrying it with you on public transport is another story. What I did before was I just left my Kinesis Advantage keyboard (the first version) in the office so I don’t have to carry it all the time with me. Over the past 25 years of working in the industry I have learned to adapt and adjust. I use both QWERTY for other people’s machines while I use Dvorak for myself. Also, you need to be able to be comfortable between the options that a built-in keyboard has and one that is external. The key is to maximize whatever tools you have at disposal.
Fair, having multiple desks I need to switch between didn't help. With affordable keyboards I would just get one extra but that option just isn't realistic with the more expensive specialty versions.
I fucking adore mine honestly. I fucked around with the layout constantly over the course of 2 months and it's become a hyper efficient rgb nightmare since i color coded everything. Maybe it's cause I've always been a shitty typer so i can get back up to my usual tpm within a day.
Link to wall art please! As a hardware engineer ex graffiti artist I really like that piece of art😮
The wall art was based on my old logo and my son modified it to what's on the wall. You can find the logo here, but I can't find the original art at the moment.
bgrolleman-2.stackstorage.com/s/EmdCshouZaLVdYeK
@toolsontech thank you! It makes sense, it's clean and simple 👌
So personally I am giving up on it because it has failed on me twice, first the left half and now the right half. I have never had a keyboard fail on me before and yet within 2 years this unit has failed me twice. To their credit though, the customer service was really good when I asked about the first failing. When the left side broke I was able to send that back after getting a new left side, free of charge (except shipping).
Most likely I will look for some more custom solution where I understand how the whole thing works so that I can fix the keyboard myself in case of any problems. Until then I think I'll stick with an old normal keyboard and use the left half that still works for some shortcuts when I program, use blender or edit videos.
They definitely got some quality control issues. Mines came with a busted cable and I got so fucking pissed cause I thought the keyboard itself was a dud. Keyboard was great otherwise but it sometimes bugs out when you mess with the layout too much forcing you to reset or unplug it which is a non issue really. Hopefully I'm not as unlucky as you cause it looks like a bitch making your own ergo keyboard.
Thinking about getting this keyboard. The thought of not liking it after spending so much money on it makes me hesitate with the purchase.
Same issue, it's pretty easy to sell 2nd hand though in my experience.
@@toolsontech In the EU, used get grabbed immediately. Been scoping for a year.
I'm supposed to be working now, but I kept cracking up at the cat and "butt" section.
I've had mine for 10 months, and I enjoy using it. It's my favorite keyboard of all time, and I'll stick to it for the foreseeable future.
My journey with it was starting with the normal layout, switching to Colemak Mod-DH, then giving up and going to the default layout, then I found one that someone else has made, and I have now heavily modified that layout to work for me. (I've recently been dabbling with Dvorak, and I've learned for my Colemak days, and I made a separate layer just for Dvorak)
i agree on the changing angle between the halves. i would also like some kinds of brackets that makes the angle and distance between the halves fixed when i want to. the moonlander slides around too much on my setup.
other than that i am very pleased. i had problems in the beginning to find the keys but i quickly got the right keycaps for my language. i actually like fiddling around with the layouts from time to time to improve them and adjust them to my needs. :)
Is it a Balvanie 14 years that I see in the back !? :o :o you have good taste !
Love me my Balvanie, this one is empty already and used as a prop but got a fresh bottle at home. So nice.
Could you link your layout ?
Sure thing, I added a pinned comment and it has this link in it - configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/55Qdq/latest/0
it seems like you missed the whole point of the moonlander. you do not set keys somewhere and try to remeber where they are. no! you set them where they naturally should be to not look for them. that's the difference.
you probably never give up your habits about "the regular keyboard".
i can describe it this way: instead of moving your fingers to the keys you move the keys under your fingers.
try to do it this way and you may discover your moonlander again :)
That's actually what I tried, as I was tweaking more and more keys moved back to their natural position. In reality I'm maybe set in my ways too much so I'm trying a 36 key layout now that forces a mental break. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's an awesome piece of kit I would recommend to people. And this comment section is turning in a true treasure trove of good advice on Moonlanders.
It's not for everyone. I did not do as much tweaking to the initial layout so it works for me.
I hate to say this, but I spent the money on the moonlander. Love the configuration abilities.... but after a few years, I quit using it. last 8 months, i have ZERO useage on it. You bring up the same questions I have. Everytime I switch, I have to relearn the keyboard. When I am without the moonlander , ORTHO becomes a keyboard problem. Not so much with UHKv2 and Dygma Raise... the layouts are not so different.
You bring up what I been thinking but unable to express. I have a dygma defy coming. maybe it will be diffferent... one way to find out.. I love new keyhboards. I am using UHK v2 and the raise. Lets be clear, the dygma raise is the better one. UHKv2 is one I used for the longest until raise came out.
ive been using the corne for about 3 months now. The step from regular to ortho + split takes some time, i decided to learn colemak at the same time, which did basically 5x the learning curve because all the keys were in the wrong place. As of now im way more comfortable than i was before, although my typing speed has like halved, still need to practice colemak properly, but it just is way more comfortable, and the ortho layout makes more sense.
Tried colemak and it's awesome, wouldn't make all the keyboard switching easier though. But if you don't switch a lot of devices definitely worth the effort.
In that case I will a normal keyboard just split in two or better yet, a splitable in two normal keyboard.
Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB is probably what you want. It's got everything except the numpad
so if one of the major problems was you constantly changing/modifying your layouts, and your solution is to change to a keyboard that has more of a fixed base layout... couldn't you have just stop changing the layout on the Moonlander constantly and put on which ever fixed base layout you want...?
That hits an issue right on the head, I'm a fanatic tweaker, so having a keyboard I could tweak sounded like a dream. Wish I had the willpower to just stop it, but that's not how my head works. It's the difference between not eating candy that's in the house and not buying any. The latter is much easier to keep up.
@@toolsontech gotcha... thanks for taking the time to respond.
I love tweaking and improving just as much. Continuous improvement never ends. On my Keebs, once I have my base layers, during use, I always find small improvements to apply. Doesn't necessarily mean a setback in wps or productivity as those tweaks are for rather particular situations and functions... for me, I think it's worth eating the candy and having to work the calories off later. Better than not having candies at all... :)
I have the Ergodox EZ, which has more keys that the Moonlander. I built a keebio Iris 7, which has 56 keys, which means the Moonlander has more keys. To top it off, I modified the QMK firmware and loaded it onto the keebio. Between the two keyboards, the context switching in my brain is minimal. The Ergodox has Kailh brown switches while the keebio Iris 7 has Kailh red switches. The actutation force of the reds are lighter than the browns. I do have to be careful I don't rest my hands on the reds or they will actuate without my noticing it. I use the keebio twice a week when I have to commute into the office. The other 5 days I'm typically on my Ergodox. You would think these little things would make it confusing for me but it only takes me about 30 minutes to switch between the two keyboards. I code for a living and write as a hobby, so I do a fair amount of typing.
How was it for gaming?
Pretty good, i just made a dedicated layer and the layout gives you more buttons available to you. And you can adjust the layout to suit muscle memory.
Don't be fooled by the big red button, it's hard to reach without moving your hand so for gaming it might as well not exist. Used it as an esc key to pauze/menu
I have not tried it but, considering it's price, I have a feeling that if I paid for it I would be really biased towards liking it. Otherwise I would have to admit I wasted a lot of money. 🤑
I've bought an Ergodox and from my experience I can actually relate to this a lot.
1 - there's just not enough keys. Modality is bad, modeless is best. I would prefer to have all standard keys in front of me in one layer, and then maybe be able to move them closer to the "home row" when needed. Long hand travel to distant keys is only a problem for keys that you press very often. Moving distant keys closer to your home row is a form of optimisation: as we all know, premature optimisation is the root of evil. Switching to a layer also needs a toggle key, and you will eventually run out of (already limited) keys for that if you have way too many layers.
2 - I prefer when a key actually does what its caption says it does. Obviously, with all these tricky layers this will never be the case, unless you own a keycap factory. Blank keycaps are a little better, but they're obviously not very useful. Having a printout of your layout on your desk is ugly.
3 - the people who design tools should not be the same people who use them. No tool is perfect, so eventually you just need to give up, suck it up, and get used to it. However, if you can constantly fiddle with it, this may give you the illusion that you may avoid this problem and just make it perfect. No you won't! But you'll endlessly postpone the moment when it clicks with this endless "improvement" loop. Designing a tool is a difficult task that requires time and skill, so I would prefer a finished professionally designed product. Let keyboard designers design keyboards, and I will do my job. I will absolutely hate the first few weeks, but then I'll just get used to it and it will be fine.
Because people asked for it and are curious, this was my latest layout on the Oryx - configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/55Qdq/latest/0
I'm now testing the Feker Alice 80, and I got a couple of great suggestions in the comments like the Dygma Raise and Kineses Advantage360 Professional.
That's funny how vastly different the layouts can be. After getting mine, I spent a long time (several days) to think about everything, and then I wrote my 6 layers (basically, one layer per modifier, the gaming one, the media/shortcut one). Then only I started practicing. It was awful at first, also because I switched to another layout as well, but after one year I'm so happy with my purchase. I understand where you come from, though, not everyone can be satisfied with the same product. Maybe you should build your own QMK with the layout you feel at ease with.
I'll take that moonlander your hands. I have a 39/42 key layout (thumb clusters symmetric) and I just want this experience on all my desks. I do think the tripod or tenting kits are where this board really becomes worth it.
sounds the issue is like u said, u never got muscle memory since you keep switching keyboards
Very much true, so it's very depended on workflow. Dragged into a lot of meetings where you need to make notes and working on many spots? The benefit of using this keyboard gets lost. But if you're a developer/writer that always works from a single desk, much better deal.
You left the door open. :)
That just shows how excited I was when it arrived :)
send it over...
I think the reason it didn't work for you is that your workflows are already so optimised for a staggered row, block keyboard.
Always optimizing, maybe I had too high hopes that I could tweak it all a little more. I'm messing with a minimal layout now and making a total break from my old setup has surprising results.
I go from my Moonander to my laptop in meetings just fine, although I don’t like non-ortholinear layouts. My layouts are alway being tweaked, but that’s a good thing as they are always improving over previous versions (I’m going on a year-and-a-half with Moonlanders). ZSA has a library of standard and user-submitted layouts, and other resources to help with your issues. The key is learning and unlearning, and the willingness to be flexible. Ortholinear is far better for the fingers than a normal layout, it only took me a few minutes to adapt to it. It sounds to me that you just resist, that you struggle with learning and adapting to new things, and I want to adapt due to my long search for a better keyboard. I wanted a new layout, and you really don’t want one, deep down.
❤
Then maybe I'm just old? I needed a couple of weeks to a month to fully adjust to the ortholinear layout and I do love the way it types. Even though I love adapting to new things at a cost, if have limited time to do so and I'm probably not the only one. As I said, it's not a bad keyboard, just not for me and there are a limited amount of videos that talk about the Moonlander for people that it didn't work for.
In the end it's a tool, and as such it needs to earn it's keep on my desk. It wasn't and after 6 months you need to take the sunk cost fallacy into account.
@@toolsontech At least it should sell pretty easily. I have a Logitech Ergonomic Keyboard that I can't find a buyer for, it was $130 new and I just want some money back. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't next-level like Moonlander or the upcoming Dygma Defy. I think a big thing for me is that I really, REALLY wanted it to work out, after having a lot of frustration with normal ergonomic keyboards. I didn't know about Moonlander-like keyboards until May of last year, when I discovered the Moonlander. I have three of them now, one for work, and two for home, and they work great. It is true, though, that one shouldn't tent them too early in the learning process, or jump into the deep end with the programming of keys right away. It's easy to get a lot of issues by doing too much too soon. I didn't tent it for a few weeks, although I did go nuts with the programming stuff. But it's all good, and I still adjust. It's interesting how when I get a new project at work, I have to adjust some things on the keyboard to optimize what I'm doing. That's a plus, for me anyway. Sounds like you do different kinds of jobs than I do. I'm just sad it didn't work out for you.
@@RandyRydberg Too bad you can't get rid of the Logitech one, that isn't a bad keyboard but definitely not on the level of the Moonlander.
Except for playing with it a bit on the first day (cause new toy) I did hold of with tenting for the first couple of months. Got a couple of good tips in the comment section and some time to kill the next few weeks so I might just try one more layout.
I'm slowly getting pushed more and more to management. Too much talk and too little keyboard.
I'm most blown away by those incomes in Europe for developers: Is that straight out of Uni or like average, cause if average, wow, that's hot garbage. $60k Euro in Amsterdam? Living like entry level.
Stats are as good as the data, high end professionals probably have their own connections instead of a site to get gigs. That at least would be my theory why they ended up on the low end.
If you want to avoid buying keyboards before getting the right one go straight to advantage 2, you will save money
I really need to ration myself on keyboards I get, but this one is definitely on the shortlist.
that's what I thought. I had a great deal on an advantage 2. but shipped it back after a week. i couldn't get myself to stick with it. i got a feker alice 80 and love it. thought i wish it had better programming support with qmk. so i picked up a keychron v10. waiting for it to get shipped. as much as i probably should love ortho... im too old and stuck in my ways to actually adopt it.
@@torytat4550 If you are coming from a traditional keyboard one week is short. In general you need several weeks. some resellers gives you a month to test it and returns it. Even tough I prefer the advantage 2, I'm testing new keyboards. I was also interested by the fekker but no qmk and no function keys. I have the v10 keyboard, it is a really good keyboard.
If you are looking for keyboards similar to the v10, you can look for the x-bows nature. It is a columnar layout. They offer 10% off right now
I love my Moonlander, it literally ceased my shoulders pain and wrists, and increased my typing speed in 30% in around 3 months
Usually also the best way to fit it is shoulder distance and leave them facing straight for a more natural hand position, the way you curve it seems to me that you are basically trying to replicate a normal keyboard and it seems uncomfortable
It's an amazing piece of kit, I'm always glad to hear it did help others. Do you think the typing speed increased due to the layout, or because it solved the pain and wrist problem? I would guess a bit of both but that is something I would like to take into account when people talk about the keyboard as a great pro for it.
For me, it takes weeks to learn the linear layout. And then it takes days to get used to the classic layout, like the standard MacBook keyboard.
Trust me, after the layout learning curve. It will shine.
Since it's not cheap at all, I also tried some other programmable keyboards like Keychron and others.
Oh man, the Moonlander software is awesome. There is no comparison to it in my experience.
I have 11 layers set up for my personal needs. And that's the beauty of it. It was modified a lot in the first three months. Then a lot of small adjustments after that. I am very happy with it and I definitely love it.
Yeah, I agree. I hate having to carry it around every day. Then I bought a second Moonlander (home and work). Use the standard MacBook keyboard for meetings.
Based on the feedback I got here I'm currently testing it with a minimal layout. And barebone it with half the keys and no wrist support. It's not perfect but I did notice that it being totally different to use now really makes it easier for my brain to switch between layouts. While the moonlander is no longer a daily driver for me, it's definitly a great kit to test ideas on.
You might just have nicely laid out wrist bones lol.
Most people should use ergonomic keyboards but some people could get away without one
Might have been lucky my mom send me on a typing course when I was young and discovering natural keyboards soon after. How ever I slice it, still got lucky and thankful for it.
Train -> moonlander + bigscreen vr
Man I love a good puzzle, but I'm a bit confused on this one. To be fair, the main issue after using the nocfree for a while now is that switching between staggered and Ortholinear costs me time and due to Train and Meetings that's something I need to do all the time.
Hi there! We really appreciate your insights on keyboard and believe our split keyboard might just be what you're looking for. Can we have a chance to give you one for free? Conveniently, one of our founders is based in the Netherlands and has a prototype ready for you. If you're interested, we'll arrange to get the keyboard to you at your earliest convenience. Thanks so much!
I sold moonlander after 6-8 months for similar reasons. I liked it otherwise. Ended up buying Logitech ergonomic keyboard
Sounds like my story, basic Logitech worked really well. Would still be working on it if it wasn't for getting to test the Nocfree.
Your desk is too high / chair is too low btw. The desk edge is poking into your forearms 4:07.
That's my studio, I don't do any "real" work on that desk. That one has a much better height to chair ratio and I even lowered it when I got the moonlander (it's higher them my old natural keyboard) to keep a good 90 degree angle.
Nice dying fern in the background
Yeah, I moved him close to the window but there's a reason I don't run a plant channel :D
@@toolsontech Yeah, I let the same happen to my plants too lol
I don't know, I have owned the ergodox ez for the past 4 years give or take, and I don't have all this problems u guys have, seriously. What on earth are u guys trying to do.
dude, zoom in/out in a browser? ctrl+mouse wheel. done.
TL;DW
There is no critic of the keyboard itself - but of split keyboards in general.
- Doesn’t like the that it can be easily moved.
- Doesn’t like Columnar
- Doesn’t like less keys
- Doesn’t like having to create/cant use layers (see less keys)
- Not portable? Over the builtin laptop keyboard, I guess.
Skill issues.
It's part skill (I really need longer to get things into my system, one of the reason I need god awful long times to get through bosses in Dark Souls) and part not being able to use it consistently. Would have had much better results I think if I was pure developer and could work from one place with my keyboard.
@@toolsontech I haven’t watch too many more of your videos so excuse my ignorance, have you tried any other split keyboard since? Would like to know what you work with now - even if not ortho-linear. Ive noticed more people un-committing from split keyboards as of late
@@bradwalker1915 I'm currently on the nocfree split keyboard. It's non ortho-linear. I also tried an alice keyboard and vickyboard. Both are broken but single piece keyboards with either staggered or ortho layout.
I prefer split and also learned to really use ortholinear keyboards I would need to double down and commit to improve my 10 finger blind typing. Unfortunatly work needs to get done else I would just full on commit to something like coleman to re-learn typing but that would ruin my productivity for a full week I think.
Moondlander
You used a std qwerty for several decades and expect to get familiar with a completely different layout within 6 months during which you also changed your layout?
It takes 3 years, minimum (if you are closing 40, rather 5 years), to be as familiar with a layout that your brain is free of thinking of it. Yea, I know, you know the keys within some weeks or even days, your muscle memory has adapted to the changed key positions about the same time, and you gain some speed long before that, but that is FAR from the familiarity you have with your old keyboard. You will recognize the difference if you made it through the 3 years.
I started the whole voyage over 20 years ago with my beloved Kinesis Advantage and now over several intermediate steps ended at CharaChorder 1, so adapting key layouts to my needs usually does not take me more than a few days of experimenting, but I already have a pretty straight idea of what I want and what to avoid.
I share some criticism with the moonlander with you. I also prefer fixed relative positions of the halves. Yes, in a train, the moonlander is barely usable. I had less problems with my Kinesis Advantage that ballances quite well on my lap. And I do hate switching between rowstaggered qwerty layouts and ortholinear split layouts, but unlike you I embraced to hate, outright hate the standard layout and try to avoid it as much as possible. I even got my OLKB Preonic for occasions requiring less space, to avoid row staggered crap. I have some additional criticisms like the missing key wells.
I think doing the jump all the way to the Moonlander was the right idea. Maybe it is not the Moonlander for you but a Kinesis Advantage (1 or 2 rather than 360), a Dactyl (with a single case), a Maltron, a Truly Ergonomic, X-Bows, Keyboardio or even a CC1. Maybe you are a bit impatient. I strongly recommend learning to do "6" with the right index (1-5 left, 6-0 right is a quite intuitive eve split, and it is even the standard touch typing scheme taught in the US for row staggered layouts (thus, since the most alternative keyboard ideas come from over there, you will face that issue with most alternative keyboards)). What layout do you use having + - in the first layer of the top row? I suggest 3d-printing some bracket that may fix the positions and mitigate train travelling issues. Go for a layout that works, even if not perfectly. If you change it, change it one at a time and give yourself some weeks (yes several weeks) to get accustomed to the change, and only then do the next change.
That of course, is only my opinion, rather tailored to my experiences than to yours. But experience I have.
Thanks for the in-depth response, 3 years to get to that level sounds about right. After 6 months though, while I had the real growing pains behind me I wasn't hitting the improvements I was looking for. And that is probably due to the Moonlander not being the solution for me. Planning to dive into the Kinesis at some point but for now a simple Alice keyboard is doing the trick. But when I do make another leap I will retrain the 6 from one finger to the other for sure.
The amount of good feedback I got on this video is amazing.
without watching the video I will say, because is a moonlander
hehe, made me laugh.
I have a word of advice for you, young man, and I want you to listen to me. Find a very good barber, and invest in visiting him or her every three weeks. Your grooming is a 2 on a 10 scale. You need to turn it over to others. When you improve your appearance, your professional life, your business, your income, and the treatment you receive from others will all improve. Try it for six months and see whether I am right.
And stop wearing T-shirts like you are a teenager. Dress like a grown man.
Try this for yourself. Wishing you very well!
Ah man, finding a good (and I mean good) barber is so hard in NL. I do have one but it's a bit of a drive so it very often get's skipped. So I'll take the advice to heart.
TLDW: Skill issues.
tbh it's just an overpriced and marketing thing. all this stuff about ergonomics and blah-blah, come on. As a software engineer who spends most of the time on the keyboard and computer, I decided, that the best way to keep yourself away from all pains and hassles is just doing some basic exercises every 1-2 hours of working. none of these keyboards will save you from pain or etc. That's why I just hold an expander on my table to do some exercises while working and all pain has gone away. I just use my general mech.keyboard and that's it. easier for work, easier for gaming
The stracture of this split keyboard is not ergonomic since typing in two keys to do operation of lost key is not ergonomic. Irony. Keyboard manufacturers need to keep the same amount of keys of regular keyboard and let the user decide where he wants to put where. all keys of regular keyboard will not make the keyboard less ergonomic since you will set the key stracture to your likings. i hate that split keyboards don't have the numeric keys
Based on your comment I'll guess you've never used one
disagreed with everything I love the moonlander
Totally fair, rock that Moonlander!
idiotic concept
side comment, i purchases a planck and a moonlander together, i used planck for like 5 minutes before realizing it is the most NOT ergonomic keyboard i have ever used. A total piece of junk imho, never touched it again, and wont waste my time trying to sell it
Skip to 8:35 to actually get to the point. Which is, he hasn't retrained himself and got frustrated...
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