The Lion and the Cycle of Abuse
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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The Caretaker - A1 - Just a burning Memory
OMORI OST - 044 - Where we used to play
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Adeptus Ridiculous said it best when comparing Russ to the Lion: Russ is the Knight playing Savage, Lion is the Savage playing Knight.
I think that's a quote from an actual book
@@ayoublahrach4169 I think so too
Nobel savage vs Savage Nobel
I don’t like it at all, because they are both who they are based on culture and they both have incredible savagery and honor but they behave outwardly how they want to behave
@@ericm3327 doesn't quite roll off the tongue does it tho?
"nobility at the cost of ethics is tyranny, no matter how you slice it''
deep shit brother, goddamn.
The lion is finally back from his long slumber and now has the milk and cigarettes for his very secretive children who desperately need a father figure in their lives.😺
Warhammer is just "daddy issues the game"
@@jamesdeek7039 I'm daddies favourite. - Fulgrim
OMG dad you are THE BEST THING EVER. I'm gonna make sure everyone knows that my dad is better than anyone else, no matter what you say! - Lorgar
Why does Dad make me do the crappy chores while Rogal gets to play with the cool toys. - Perturabo
I wish dad would get off my back, I know what I'm doing with this warp stuff. I'm not some stupid kid. Oh well, what he doesn't know won't hurt him. - Magnus
I want to kill my dad so damn badly. Why the hell did my dad kill him? So not fair. - Mortarion
Why couldn't you have just let me die with my friends, dad? - Angron
Dad caught me skinning the neighbours -cat- and he didn't tell anyone. Didn't even get mad, just said "Son, I'm very disappointed." - Konrad
Damn, this knife smells funny. Dad kinda sucks and you know, I am SO much better than dad! - Horus
Dad, I don't know what you want me to do or who you want me to be. I don't know who I am, what I am, where I am or what side I'm on. And neither does anyone else. Especially not him. But maybe I do know. Maybe I'm right. Am I alive? I know everything and dad was right all along, he just didn't know it. I am Alpharius - Alpharius/Omegon
Milk and cigarettes in the form of the watchers
Dark angels are big fans of Spec ops the line
Do you feel like a hero
I might just play them if that's the case.
What can I say I'm a massive spec ops the line fan.
I love that game.
HE TURNED US INTO FUCKING KILLERS!!!!
You’re still a good person…
So one of the things that turns me off a lot of 40k lore yourubers is that any form of media analysis is an alien concept to them. It's lovely that you engage with these texts at a deeper level and i would love to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Reminds me of Hbomberguy's review of Dark Souls 2 where he analyses the opening and contrasts it with the general reception of the time which was something along the lines of of "an old lady tells you to do stuff and then you jump into a whirlpool and that's a bad story hook".
Nerd culture in general is very lore obsessed and seems to shun media analysis.
tbf, that's because a whole lot of media analysis is the analyst bending over backwards to prove that the media supports their own politiks
Yeah theres a facination with pure facts and events that not many loretubers really look for themes and subtext
@@respectfulevil9022The A Song of Ice and Fire fandom has this like insanely bad. They create these insane theories and defend them to the death despite the fact it would be so thematically inconsistent with the books.
Additional fun fact: phosphex weapons use is actually considered a war crime in 40k and they are largely banned for use. Thats how gross they are.
No shit?
@@Rock.E.Bottomthis is 40k. The imperium (and its enemies probably) drawing a moral line around a weapon? Says a lot.
You know a weapon is scary when the Imperium of Man calls it a war crime 😂
I thought it was less that than some Techpriest was so horrified that he destroyed their only STC fragment, which got him burned at the stake using a phosphex weapon
I thought it was more that phosphex rendered the territories they were trying to claim unusable
The Lion reads very much as an undiagnosed autistic feral child who later in life learned about his autism
real recognize real
yup.
Yeah, every time I talk about the Lion with the boys I always bring that up.
I like how chill he is in modern times.
For real, I think most, if not all primarchs have undiagnosed mental disorders, Lion is one of the primary examples for me, the other one is rogal dorn.
@@Nightmare704RYpretty sure being bonked in the head just comes with the territory of a warp souled super bodied demi god
Fun fact: The Lion, Daddy Genocide, once had three Gloriana-Class Battle Barges to his Legion.
Well the nonpersonnel assets of the II and XI had to go somewhere, eldest son gets the goods first, Roboute and Rogal can get what is left.
Actually they had atleast 5 we know of. 3 of the 5 are named.
Five, actually. Lost at least two of them. One was damaged beyond repair, so they crashed it into a Rangdan planet.
I love this video pointing out the parallels that exist between Lion and Angron. Im a world eaters fan so i didn't give it as much thought, but the two really show the two ways this could have gone, the lion course correcting his sons from the path he initially set them on, and the red angel dooming his sons to live out the same pained existence as him with no hope of escape for any of them. Wonderful work as always.
Most recent Angron book highlights how much he just does not care and will destroy everything his sons built just to continue the cycle.
The Primarch to Space Marine abuse in 40K is just so painful to me. Fuckers like Angron and Kurze time and again directly tell their sons they hate them, but the poor children just can’t live with it. They desperately try to make their fucked up fathers happy by striving to be as fucked up as them. Jaggo even asked Kurze why he hated his sons so much. It’s like a motherless child barely in his teenage years asking his alcoholic father what did he do wrong so he can fix himself and make his father love him. It’s heartbreaking
The major thing that I loved from the book, was the Lion Guard. Watching this gradual crusade of normal Imperial Guard swearing to fight alongside the Primarch, just kinda clicked into place well. I hope they get rules, but I doubt it.
As someone who doesn't play tabletop(too expensive even if I liked playing wargames), I just for the Lion guard to persist as fun or interesting characters in the literature.
The Lion: "I really don't need bodyguards"
The Lion guard:"...but what if there were more of us?"
@@dapperultron1784 Lion: "You're normal people! You're not even trained!"
The Lion Guard: "And?"
Dark Angels Lore really makes me question my devotion to The Blood Angels... sometimes.
I am Dark Angels fan and when the 2nd Codex came out with both legions I had a choice to make. Blood Angels were my close 2nd. I couldn't pass on Asmodai, Ezekiel or the Deathwing.
They make for really fun allies. DA fan here but I've got a soft spot for BAs and I think they've always written it like that.
@ghannos9869 its nice to have a favorite Stable Geneseed Legion and a favorite unstable one.
He is the primarch that looks at you like a predator looks at prey. He sees your weaknesses, he can see colours, smells and sounds that you cannot even detect, he calculates tactics and outcomes of any who stand in front of him before they have taken their second breath in his presence. He is the first. He is his fathers Angel of Death and his loyalty is beyond reproach.
From a title like that and the "using people as tools" bit i would have thought this had way more to do with the way Big E acted towards his children
I mean, half of his children also turned against him, lead by his second in command who felt betrayed, I think GW might have actually intended it as a parallel
"Mr. Bone man... do you think I can't use this shield as a weapon against you?" - Lion El' Jonson.
Something I always found neat was how The Lion and Russ are sides of the same coin. The Lion is a Knight a soldier a leader but at his core he is a wild animal. Russ on the other hand plays the beast however he is a noble leader and a great king.
Russ is also the best Brother imo he's one of the few primarchs that knows his flaws and those his brothers had and has actually tried to help them get over them to mixed results.
Lion El’Lannister
Can’t wait for that twin primarch theory video.
The Emperor gifting Reboute the sword: Get that stick out of your ass and realize logistics needs experience in the field to get better, I will guide you!
Lion gifted the Shield: You need therapy for your violent outbursts from fighting monsters for so long, you've forgotten who your allies are. Take this shield and find someone/something to protect instead of your own skin and tame and temper your ideals. You're a knight, not a despot.
Shame the Emperor had to die to gain some character development into raising his sons instead of treating them like machinery.
It was a lot easier to be angry at 20 than it is at 45. Just sayin'.
The argumebt over who gets the sword and who gets the shield is based in the dichotomy between pragmatism in-universe, and telling a story effectively. Pragmatically, it *would* make more sense to give The Lion the Sword, as he is more effective that way, but that fails to acknowledge the story the author was trying to tell. That's the difference there.
It makes sense in a pure numbers game, to give the best thing to the best character available, to Optimize the Loadout.
But Optimizing a Loadout does not tell the best *Story.*
Guilliman was given the sword before he was put to sleep by Fulgrim and I think the Lion was already MIA then; while pretty much any of his remaining loyal brothers could had used the sword better in combat, since they all are better 1v1 fighters than him, the sword is more than that it's his symbol of authority as Regent so beyond the intended messenge of giving Guilliman something he lacked it also reinforced his natural role as ruler, that to me seems very practical besides being allegorical.
I loved listening to this video and the introspect I got from it. All I wanted was 40k lore background noise and got a whole perspective change
Just subbed, i love talking about the depth and themes we can learn from the primarchs so im very ecstatic that you’re doing this series.
Gonna watch every video.
Man the Alpharius video will drive Arthur crazy
The music you choose always makes me question if my schizophrenia meds are working or not...
I spent time on shazam trying to find what it was? I feel it is from the Shining?
@@buryitdeep it's always some kinda out of tune cartoon circus music lol
The song is from an album called everywhere at the end of time. Its a 6 hour album representing alzheimers and dementia. It features an old timey song that over time gets so degraded it just becomes noise with occaional familiarities poking through the surface before being lost again. @buryitdeep
@@lightmetro7508 the more you know 🔥
That's actually kinda weird to think about...
I love how the emperor’s first son is named John Space Marine
Is Cypher BOY to his Kratos?
The lion kind of reminds me of Guts from Berserk. Forced to survive in harsh world, Live by the sword and secretive as hell. However with enough time both see that closing off themselves did more damage than good. Now both of them have people who they treasure and allow people around them and near them. I love this
8:55 Interesting: This is one of the most famous line from Corvus Corax...
burning in the vacuum of space doesn't defy logic as long as the fuel source is ALSO the oxidizing reagent.
its why bullets can fire in space it has nitrate in the powder to provide the oxygen.
So y'all saying Lion caving in Angrons skull was literally him banishing his demons? Shiiieeeet son, that's deep.
Theres plenty of material that can burn in the void, its not that crazy.
I'm probably late to this or that someone also put two and two together but the Lion and Kratos parallels are very similar. That being both have shields that holds something of great value to the self and not to it's ability.
Kratos has the shield because it's from his wife and holds great sentimental value. When it breaks, he doesn't replaced it but tries to repair it.
Lion's case isn't really personal in a sense of intimacy, but the emperor's shield is a reminder that Lion is not only the best warrior of mankind but also the defender of mankind or in a sense a defender of the emperor's dreams.
ZUES! YOUR SON HAS RETURNED! AND I BRING THE DESTRUCTION OF OLYMPUS!!!!!!!!!
Burning in space does not defy logic. Check your chemistry and oxidation of substances.
The Lion and The Dark Angels, especially Deathwing, were my intro into 40k. Love them. Need to read the lore to see how the seething DA's are handling the reintegration of the Fallen, as well as what The Lion says to them about it.
I’m reading the Dark Angels omnibus right now and Astelan is such a tool but also makes valid points.
This is such an awesome analysis! Thank you so much! Also… Omori music jumpscare.
This is the exact stuff that makes you stand out. Keep up the great work
I am happy to see someone going deeper into the Lion and his personae than just "hurdur, he is terrible because he is autistic and almost made girlyman cry!"
I have been saying this for a couple.of years now, that when you actually read the HH books and pay attention to the Lion and his motivations, that yes, he has problems with communication and trust, but he is very pragmatic and tries to do what is the best for the Imperium.
And then Lion: Son of the Forest came out and it offered much growth and introspection, especially when he is faced with his own hubris and fears.
[muffled sounds of Angron screaming FUCK YOU in the distance]
>like Kratos demake
>it's about muh deconstruction and becoming a better man (a soothing wimpy passive current year subversion)
holy mother of soy
Probably the best break down of a character I’ve seen. Can’t wait for more
*THE LION IS BACK, BABY!!!*
Now tell me more about crow daddy!
You mean Kurze? Corax is a raven, man.
Crow and raven are just what we call corvids based on size of the species, they arent actually monophyletic
Burning in space isn't that spectacular. You just need to pack something flamable with an oxydizer. The compound will be stable until the burn reaction is triggered, for example by a spark. Once it's burning the heat will cause more material to burn.
Why did I liougth two seconds in at the kratos comparison
And then they released the 10th edition codex, where he looked at his sons told the older ones to never tell anybody about his abusive behavior or ever talk to anyone again, and tacitly acknowledged that the youngers decision to be brutal was entirely justified, because they are still in charge, and they are all of the named characters. 40K the setting, where we tee up complex moral debates only to release a book in six months it just declares that there never was one.
I am exited for Peter Turbo
the idea that the lion being given a shield because he NEEDS to change his ways and stop perpetuating a cycle of violent lest he turn into something so much worse
and THEN he's forced to fight Angron.... damn okay GW you're doing some decent writing
Great vid Bones... great perspective
I reallly like this charachter interpretation
I'm not gonna lie but when The Lion was revealed to come out I thought damn that's cool as fuck but I'm not that into DA. This video has really peeled off a layer and revealed a new side of the DAs that I kinda wanna read the Son of the Forest book.
I desperately want when Guilliman and Lion meet, for Guilliman to offer the sword to Lion, and he looks at it for a few moments, then gives it back, saying something about how there was a time when he would have accepted the sword, but that time is no more, and it belongs in Guilliman's hands now.
Phosphex burning in space is fine, means it brings it's own oxygen, which for a weapon meant to work damn near anywhere makes sense.
Am I misremembering or was there a point in the lore where it was floated out there that the Lion might have purposely delayed moving to defend Terra in order to see who would win before acting, and so when he returned to Caliban Luther thought he had been corrupted and that’s why he attacked? Then at some point in their ensuing duel he realized he’d been manipulated and surrendered? Or was that just somebody’s headcanon post I’m remembering?
Now this is my kinda lore
Nah. One of the many reasons the primarchs returning is the completely unneeded move to make the primarchs/ imperium seem more good and redeemable.
I AM SO HYPED FOR THE PRIMARCH PROFILES
BUY HIS MERCH PPL
btw guys he has the Thelema symbol on his belt buckle, just sayin
I like this. Everyone has someone or something in 40k that resonates with them. This can also be used to better understand real social issues. More.
Are the watchers in the dark the 40k equivalent to fantasy wood elves or should I trying to match with Jaghatai blunt for blunt?
Well done. Thank you
bloody loved this
im suprised this only has 2k likes
Great video!
I think your comparison is good. Lion and Kratos were ruthless warriors, both been betrayed, and the only way they could react to that is going berserk.
FOR THE LION 🦁
Son of the Forest also made me enjoy the lion more.
4:22 sounds like that irl chemical that burns concrete that the nazis made.
Thermite ain’t like that, phospex is just super napalm
@@averageeughenjoyer6429 no I’m talking about chlorine Trifluoride. It’s some vile shit.
Boils at room temperature, produces a toxic gas (which is the flammable part) that burns at over 3632 degrees Fahrenheit, highly unstable, oh and when it “stabilizes” becomes hydrochloric acid vapor, and it explodes on contact with water.
hi arthur
Yo bro. Dont make me like the lion.
Skaven yet?
Yes-yes, need-want ratmans
I will never not be amused by people who tried to convince everyone that Lion will just come back and kill his Fallen sons, lol - Lion finally realizing that he was a failure of a father and a leader (and possibly realizing the faults of his own father) would be just so fucking neat
Juke all your fans and do Vulkan next
Ehhhh in my opinion this storyline is pretty weak. This idea of breaking a cycle of Abuse is kinda dumb as the Lion is still a pretty evil person by most metrics as him standing with the Imperium still shows he still values the ideals he had during the great crusade, just not with such vigor and maybe with more complexity.
Additionally the idea that the most of the SM on Caliban didn’t know about the treachery is a little ridiculous in my eyes. Like you can’t read Angels of Caliban and Seriously think that most of them didn’t know anything was going on. I mean they literally had a Red Wedding style massacre of the Loyalist that came to a Caliban in the book. It’s a bit of a stretch to think that word didn’t get around to what had happened. It also ignore the idea that most of the SM on Caliban were pissed off waiting for The Lion to come and let them fight with him.
The reason I like the Lion in the Horus Heresy is because he pretends to be this warrior who’s above all the pettiness of his Brothers and the rest of the Imperium but truthfully he isn’t as his actions through the Crusade and the Heresy show that he his petty and prideful just like everyone else. And while it’s interesting to see the idea of him maybe overcoming his ego, this idea of stopping the Cycle of Abuse is nonsense.
I feel like one of the big clues he's not above his brothers was the Heresy short story where he fights with Curze and he's dragged away yelling like a psycho.
The lion x gulliman gay fan fiction wasn't even mentioned come on bones untapped market
That's because Gulliman has Yvraine, my dude. He can't be gay if he's bi!
gotta love that GW is destroying DA legion and the Lion - the point of 40k IS ENDLESS CYCLE OF POINTLESS VIOLENCE SO WHY DID THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE LION FORGIVE THE FALLEN
Goo goo ga ga lol
It’s called character growth….
The point of 40k is making money
@@averageeughenjoyer6429 how can you make money when customers leave?
Takk!
The Lion is an autistic feral child, that is so socially and emotionally awkward that he cannot crack a proper joke, who uses his sons as tools and realizes that he and his brothers ARE tools. The Lion is the first Primarch, the one who all Primarchs and the later Legions would be based on, their father's perfect tool. And ironically, if you really think about it in contrast, he IS his father's son after all.
And the Lion becoming a better man is interesting, as that means Luther called it. I wonder if the Lion will forgive Luther, but realize that Chaos is so deeply rooted in his "own Horus", that he gives the willing Luther the mercy he seeks?
Algorithm
Didn’t the original God of War creator say that Kratos going this route isn’t what he wanted? Not bashing on the Lion though, that arc is perfect 😁
yeah!
That's David Jaffe, the guy I kinda ragged on in the end joke!
he doesn't really like what happened to Kratos and is a bit childish about it.
I think it's funny though no real hate to the duder
Funny thing is, originally Kratos meant to become one of the three wise man who seek out jesus with their gifts.
That would've been a lot more interesting than what they ended up with.
I'd say this shows a smidge of growth on Big E's behalf giving Lion the shield
more character analysis videos please this was great!
Giving the Lion the shield and Guillmen the sword isn't about what they are best suited for. Its about giving them what they need.
Agreed. The symbolism of the arms is much preferred over min maxing. Sword for papa smurf as a leader, shield for Lion as a protector. Their changing personalities go with the weapons.
A funny bonus to Lion not getting the sword is that he can defeat daemon primarchs. GW won't permakill them, so the sword would be a hidden nerf anyway.
@@DoYouLiekMudkipz_ I always think that giving Gman the sword is giving him the potential to grow out of his only identity. Gulliman is not only a strategist. Because each primarch that has met him described him differently. Lionel said Gulliman's true talent is multi-tasking, not planning, Corax claimed Gulliman has the nature of a warrior as much as any other primarchs and Gulliman sees himself as a student, always curious and always wants to learn from others. He believed he could fix machines just like Perturabo or Vulkan, it just takes too much time since he doesn't have the talent and even if he tries he won't be able to match their best crafting. I think Gulliman was given the sword because it's the symbol of leadership but also to grow his potential as a fighter on the battlefield. Decide the potential of the student even before he starts is bad education.
I think it's the same with Lionel. Giving him the shield is to teach him to control his power. He already has destructive power and he doesn't need more. The shield takes away some of that destructive power in exchange for flexibility in tactics, forcing Lionel to think more about his approach before acting.
Whoever at GW had the idea of modelling Old Lionel after Charles Dance deserves some sort of award.
It's my headcanon that Tywin Lannister got transported to the 40k setting and learned the valuable lesson that treating people like tools might not be the best tactic.
Tywin Lionnister 😂
Pretty much everyone is clamoring for Charles Dance as the lion in Cavill's 40k series.
Kinda ridiculous they aged him, they're supposed to be functionally immortal, Perturabo was aged thousands of years by the Hrud and still looked the same, it's only been 10,000 years for Lion. Hopefully it's just him since he's the first primarch and perhaps not as finished as the others, which doesn't make much sense as he was supposed to be the template for all primarchs. Maybe he was lost in the warp for almost as long as Lorgar? Maybe it's due to Luther's mortal wound? I hope it's the last one.
@@SwiftPaintsprobably just some warp shit
@@SwiftPaints Guilliman has been noted as aging by others. I think it's a mental thing that translates to their physical appearance.
Huh I never considered Angron as the counter to The Lion's breaking the cycle. Makes the Arcs of Omen conclusion quite cool!
Loved the video. I have read the book and it was great, it really changed how I looked at the Lion, it really gave him a better story ark to follow
“The cycle ends here. We must be better than this.”
-Kratos (GoW 2018)
Hell yeah a character I can understand and empathize with (fuck,why did it have to be the ones with the worst abuse circles, the lion, angron and Peter turbo).
This is not meant as a diss to Perturabo, but his childhood was idyllic compared to at least half of his brothers. Mortarion, Ferrus, Curze, Lion, Russ, Sanguinius, Corax, Angron, probably Omegon and arguably Lorgar all ended up in far worse circumstances as children. In fact, Perturabo's childhood was not all that different from Guilliman's.
Still waiting that bones mentioned about Twin primarch theory from anonymous astartes podcast
This episode brought back so much past trauma...
..."daddy WAIT! I'll be good! Not the belt! NOT THE BELT!!"
That’s not title I was expecting, but I’m excited for it anyway
Don't go trying to turn my beloved IP about violent zealotry and xenophobia into something heavy and dark.
Who is David jaffy, lol?
LETS GOOOO DARK ANGELS
Luther was brainwashed by a Chaos book I’m pretty sure and when he beat the Lion chose not to kill him and for 10K+ years was depressed and said Lion would forgive him now I think Lion is gonna kill him or maybe he’s changed and they will team up but What happens to Cypher is the real/another question
Should be interesting for the stories of the primarchs. Waiting for Mr. DidNothingWrong.
Grandpa Lion is best Lion.
I did not consider the Shield/Sword aspect...Nice observation.
Thought they confirmed in Lion Son of the Forest that Caliban fired on the Loyalist Fleet first?
No it was Calibian who shot first
@@robertoleary5470 My guy, you need to improve your reading skills.
@@robertoleary5470Thats what I said lol