SO there’s an issue with the audio in the last couple minutes. I’m so sorry about that! I have no idea what happened, it was fine when I exported it. The subtitles work as intended, so maybe mute and listen that way. 😅 I am currently typing this as I’m sitting at my college graduation, so I apologize for not being able to fix it more directly than this! See you all soon!
Cersei didn’t have a claim to the Iron Throne, was already hated, and blew the in world Vatican. For some reason, the writers thought she would get the throne by her own right without the lords doing nothing and with the smallfolk not rebelling.
Another thing that plays into this is that the world feels so... empty in the last 3 seasons. I can't exactly explain it, but sometimes it seems that main houses/characters are the only people left and they're just interacting with each other while all the background characters and minor houses are literally reduced to NPCs just standing there to fill screen space. Which is even more striking considering how many different minor characters are there in GRRM's novels and their impact on the story is quite substantial to the point where you feel like you're actually following a real world with tons of various relationships and interactions. This was one of the best aspects of the books for me and something that distinguishes ASOIAF from other fantasy and the last few seasons of the show simply lacked that realness
@@agentdrozd exactly this! When you start reading the books it feels unnecessary and overwhelming at first when you meet all these new "random" characters but it makes the world feel real. The show felt like we started out with a good cast and it just decreased with every death and barely introduced new ones
The exclusion of Aegon also ruins Varys' character. Were Tyrion travelling around with Aegon and Joncon in S05, Varys would get to stay in King's Landing. Even if he didn't kill Kevan Lannister in the show, they could still do something interesting with him subtly undermining Cersei's rule even further. As opposed to in the show where he does.... nothing until randomly getting himself killed through an obvious betrayal.
It's honestly funny how Varys, possibly the most slimy, scewy dude ever, using slave kids with their tongues cut out as spies, is pretty much just a good guy in GoT.
The Tysha confession IS what ruins Jamie’s arc, because it produces the “she’s been fucking Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Moonboy for all I know” confession, which is what haunts Jamie’s mind and drives him away from Cersei. Not hearing this is the reason Jamie stays by his sister’s side.
You’re right that it really diminishes his story, but the show could have salvaged this part of Jaime’s arc simply by having Lancel arrive in King’s Landing after his pious awakening, and confessing it to Jaime early in S5. You can make the argument this works more for TV. They could have also had Varys spill the beans and explain it with “oh hey Tyrion, Jaime told me to tell you this when we worked together to free you”. This part is lazy writing, but it’s better than omitting it. For a better solution, they could have also included a flashback in S5 to the whole story of Tysha to remind fans of what happened-and to go along with Cersei’s flashback of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy. I think such a flashback early on in this hypothetical S5 and the reveal of what truly happened later in the season is very fitting. A flashback is also interesting because the memory of the Tysha story is very likely a POV trap through which Tyrion romanticizes their relationship (it’s very plausible that she didn’t believe she was in a position to say no to Tyrion when he proposed). This sets up a darker Tyrion, which many regular fans wouldn’t have been ready to see.
No Tysha confession also means no Punished Tyrion, which means no Mad Queen (or at least a heel turn that makes sense), which leads to the worst episode of Game of Thrones. For Jaime, it’s the combination of omitting the Tysha confession *and* Stoneheart that leads to both him and Brienne getting neutered, since now both of them are completely ruderless. From season 5 onwards they become reactionary characters with little to no agency, just going from plot to plot as a sidekick.
I know that when they made this change in season 4 it ruined it for me. It caused a huge shift in whats to come and it just got worse and worse after it.
I guess but they gave tons of other reasons for Jaime to not be on her side such as when she betrayed the others against the dead and all the other ways she’s betrayed him. Even in the show with what they gave he never should’ve stuck with her
it was a real shame they had to cancel the show after 4 seasons, I guess we'll never know what Tyrion got up to in Essos or how Charles Dance leaving the cast would affect the overall quality.
Well, at least they DID show those two extra seasons to let us know what they were planning on doing with the show, even though they couldn’t give us the ending.
While yes the failure to include relevant plot characters from the book definitely hurt the TV Show I think issue that made the last few seasons as bad as they were is something more core. An old UA-camr I used watch called the issue “the Cult of the Badass” In the books Arya is a traumatized child spiraling down of self destructive path of violence and vengeance, but in the show she’s a cool badass who can sword fight Breanne, kill the all the of the Freys, and stopped climate change by stabbing it. The books tries to balance cynicism and human goodness, but D&D are just full on soak in the cynicism while laughing at any form of human goodness, it’s why they turned Edmure Tully into a joke character.
Edmure Tully is a joke character in the novels as well. He is portrayed as a young, amiable knight who is rash, inexperienced, naive, and somewhat cooky. Very much a knight of summer
@@cameronmoore2713 No he isn’t! Edmure Tully was the only Lord in the book who actually gave a damn about his people, the people he is sworn to protect and has a duty to. He lets them into Riverrun rather than just leaving them outside the walls to just fend for themselves when Tywin Lannister is coming through, who is renowned for his cruelty and brutality, with his army. And why does he do it? Because they were afraid! Honestly, the Edmure disrespect is so gross. And it was Robb Stark’s lack of communication with his generals as the leader of an army, when he knew he was marching off into the Westerlands from which he mightn’t return, which led to Edmure needing to make the decision about what to do based on the limited information he had. If anything it shows that Robb Stark was still a fifteen year old boy, and green as a commander, not that Edmure was incompetent. We know he isn’t incompetent because he successfully manages to push Tywin and his army back. He wasn’t aware of Robb’s plan for Tywin to be allowed to pass into the Westerlands, but that is on Robb Stark. Edmure was trying to protect Robb’s back and he was forced to make a judgement call on the fly without knowing the full plan. He also spends months being threatened with daily executions outside riverrun, has the life of his young son threatened, and then walks into the castle to surrender it and instantly assista the Blackfish in escaping Jaime.
I think the reason Cersei blowing the Sept lacked in-universe consequences is because there was no in-universe reason she did it. According to Dean Charles Chapman (Tommen), Tommen was originally slated to die in battle; however, Benioff and Weiss changed their minds last-minute and wanted Tommen to die by suicide. This change was made after the S6 script was completed and costumes/props had been made to accommodate the battle (that's how last-minute it was). In any case, the Sept explosion only happened because B&W needed a reason for Tommen to kill himself. I'd also argue they needed to wrap a bunch of arcs quickly since they were barreling towards the show's finale without taking proper time to get there. Killing off loads of characters (Tyrells, Sparrows) in a manner that would drive Tommen to suicide gave B&W everything they wanted, so in their minds there was no reason for repercussions. Not to mention this set Lena Heady up for a strong emotive performance- something B&W deeply coveted in later seasons to shill their actors for awards. I'm starting to get mad so I can't say anymore lol. Agree that fAegon was the most detrimental exclusion. Nice job, Quinn.
@@villekuronen6242 True. However, it wasn't worth the damage to the plot. Also, it was a slap in the face to the costume/props team who'd worked hard on everything needed for the battle, and had already begun work on S7 stuff that was now disrupted to accommodate the last minute change. If you ask me, I'd have much rather seen a battle between the Faith and the Lannister/Tyrell forces.
I’ll never understand why they didn’t make the world as magical as it could’ve been. (I know budgetary issues were a factor) but still , it would’ve made it much better if we could’ve at least gotten “direwolves the size of pony’s” , proper warging/green seeing, colorful armor/banners/tapestries etc… HoTD is doing much better with those things , which is good to see
Per Benioff and Weiss, they deliberately removed as many fantasy elements from the series as was feasible, to make the show appeal to a broader audience. So yeah, Lady Stoneheart and fully sized direwolves would've been too much for the soccer moms so they had to go.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to blame budgetary issues, as GoT was the most popular show of all time and (at least after season 3 or 4) basically had a blank check from HBO. Blackwater was the most expensive episode of the first few seasons at $10mil, with season 8 having a budget of $90mil for only six episodes! You can tell in the earlier seasons that budgetary constraints led to most large battles being off-screen, but once the awards and the viewership and the money started coming in, THAT'S when most of the fantasy and magical elements started to get dropped (or never even picked up). S1-S3 had dragons, wargs, greensight, resurrection, wights, blood magic, warlocks, faceless men, flaming swords, shadow assassins, glamors, prophetic visions... S7-S8 had dragons, and a very hastily-concluded plot with the White Walkers. D&D just kind of forgot that they were directing a fantasy show I suppose 🤷♂️
@@ashleyofnaath I find it funny how that was their reasoning 😭 they didn’t even consider that a normal person might like it BETTER because of the fantasy elements
Yeah, why argue over one side character over another when there was stupid stuff like. "OMG, they just killed a dragon with a ballista... run!!! OK, Plan B: We run right at the ballista with the dragons just like before, they certainly won't see it coming and there's absolutely no chance of failure again cuz of uhh.... plot reasons."
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that Dany is integral to the story and her arc was ruined very early in season 2. The reduction of magic, the rearranging of the Qarth plot, Dany's motivations. This is what led to the Dany we had in season 8. Dany's season 2 plot is completely different to A Clash of Kings. Down to the smallest detail, her crown. D and D clearly didn't want a lot of magic within their fantasy story and because Dany is a magical character, it was always going to negatively impact her storyline. One way or another.
Caveat: I've never read the books. But even in the show, in the early seasons, it always blew my mind that there's all this literal proof of magic, the supernatural, and/or some type of higher power...and by the end, everyone just, kinda...forgot...about...all of that. What?!
@@thebert8141 So to fill you in a bit on the books, magic is so rare in the beginning of the books that it's the stuff of myth and legends to basically everybody in Westeros, and it's also usually extremely weak in the beginning. It's so rare that the Maesters of the Citadel don't have any historical records of it being used since the time of the Doom of Valyria. As time goes by, it starts getting stronger and stronger and it's hinted that its unexplained increase in potency might be related to the rebirth of the dragons. For example with the pyromancers in King's Landing, they were having an extremely hard time creating wildfire because it involves incantations that were recorded on old texts, but suddenly the incantations start becoming more effective. But outside of places like Quarth or Asshai far across the ocean, "magic" is just the stuff of fantasy stories that parents tell their kids about at night to scare them about what's north of the wall.
What ruins it is the whitewashing of Tyrion and them not giving up some characters in seasons 5,6,7 to develop Euron and Griff. the show would need to have 12/13 seasons, the fight with the white walkers would only happen in the 10th season, the last two would be the dance of the dragons between aegon vi (griff) allied with dorne, euron and conqueror of the southern kingdoms VS daenarys, the dragon queen who helped the north. Daenarys and Jon end the same way as the series, but the development until she becomes a tyrant is much greater and palatable. euron and griff as invaders is widely accepted in the community as an afterthought of grrmartin. the show stuck with the "original" idea of leaving Daenarys as the invader of Westeros, when in the books everything is heading towards her being the "tyrannical liberator" who will fight Griff/Aegon vi in a second dance of the dragons. Euron and Griff are very important and when they saw that they hadn't yet been included in the show's 5 seasons, they thought there would be too many plots. the show would need to use Sansa, Arya and other loved ones to develop bigger and completely new characters. Without Aegon/Griff you take away the meaning of Dorne, Varys, Illyrio and the whole great revolution that happens in the world of Westeros. by far this is not all fault of dumb and dumber; in the books the entire Dorne subplots could be summarized by chapters of Varys receiving letters - instead of consuming pages and pages to say that the Prince of Dorne is making a marriage alliance for his daughter while she rebels by fucking men to try to defy the father. George must have spent months of his life writing a Dorne subplot that adds nothing to the 3 major points of the story. George delved into Brienne looking for Sansa in lands we know she's not in, he also delved into subplots of Dorne and a fantastic crusade of daenarys against slavery in lands no one cares about. all of this could be resolved with a time skip, changing your writing style focused on millions of unnecessary POVs and finally developing the characters of the big plot: euron, griff, bran, tyrion, snow, dany the story went from starks vs lannisters/targaryen fighting for the throne/others to an anthology of subplots of brienne, reek and minor characters. George got stuck in secondary plots that don't affect the 3 major pillars of the story and don't make it develop forward, only sideways. If he doesn't even know how to get to the end, imagine dumb and dumber who are really bad writers
Yep, always said cutting Young Griff/Aegon was the biggest catalyst for making the ending suck. That, and Bran's story not being fleshed out in anyway. Biggest tragedy in entertainment history.
Even during the first few seasons they were giving Bran the bare minimum. I get that they didn't have a budget for a bombastic 3-eyed-crow scene but they could have done more with his dreams or with the Harvest Feast that got skipped completely.
They also took away the whole thing of him sending people visions which he does in a clash of Kings and he most likely does to Theon in a dance with dragons saying his name in The godswood. Those actions make him so much more of an active character than a passive character
@@fazediamond5671 yeah but they still should have kept his scene with Theon in the godswood. Also like... There's infinite possibilities for stories they could have told in that cave. It literally lets them see through time and space. I'd argue there's no excuse to not include bran more than any other character. The options were only limited by their imagination, which they had none
For blowing up the Sept you'd think Cersei would be hated not only by the people of King's Landing, but every lord in Westoros and even her own bannermen. The Lannister army would want to depose her in favor of another Lannister.
Agreed. The Sept of Baelor was the equivalent of the Vatican is in our real world. Surely, the Lannisters would at least face SOME kind of political backlash from this. Oh, and the murdering of the innocents in that Sept, as well as the entire Tyrell family, save the Queen of Thorns. But nope, D&D decided that Cersei gets rewarded for that with a crown and zero judicial consequences. I guess in D&D's version of Westeros the crime of war crimes simply do not exist.
Yep D&D screwed up everything, even when I was a kid, when I watched that scene play out. I thought to myself, "She's going to get lynched in the streets for this". But nope! She's absolutely and completely fine. The show even goes as far as to say that the smallfolk like Cersei. And the only thing I can think is WHY!!???! Why would they like someone who blew up their equivalent of The Vatican.
I like you pushing the Aegon agenda. I was sceptical of him at first but the whole Golden Company's yolo meeting leading up to their decision to invade Westeros really won me over.
I think that changing Jeyne Westerling with Talisa was also a mistake, as it changed Robb from being someone who broke his marriage promise to Freys due to his honor to him doing it do to being selfish.
To be honest, I prefer Talisa than Jeyne Westerling, the idea of Tywin being able to predict and plan Rob breaking his vow with the Freys by sleeping and marring Jeyne seems to be very farfetch, Tywin is smart, but I can't see someone have that much foresight to know how things would turn out
@@lordfarquaad2319 It would have been more interesting/ tragic, had something of the Honeypot Theory been real (it would have worked as a way of tying the new character to something resembling the original book plot, specifically conflating Jeyne with her mother- who could arguably have looked similar to the Talisa actress {had she been stated as Myrish or Tyroshi, rather than Volantene- whose nobility have Valyrian ancestry}). It felt like there were hints to it, but like virtually every potentially great _opportunity_ , it got p*ssed away by Dumbarse & Dipsh^t...
@@lordfarquaad2319 I think that more than predict he used an opportunity given from his vassals after the fact happen, is there something in the book that say it was planned before?
@@lordfarquaad2319 it is not that Tywin predicted that Robb would sleep with Jeyne Westerling but that Jeyne's mother took the initiative to make something happen and contact tywin. Remember Jeyne's mother was descendant of Maggie the Frog and knew a thing about aphrodisiacs. Robb was already under the influence of Milk of the Popp, throw in some good ole nightingale syndrome with the helping hand of an aphrodisiac along with the hormones of teenagers and we get a deflowered Jeyne and a guilt ridden Robb. Honestly Game of Thrones faltered with the Northern Storyline early on which had unforseen consequences in the later seasons. Throw in no Tysha and no Young Griff and you get the latter half of the series.
Great video, but around 13 minutes 20 seconds a funny thing happened with the audio. It's kind of ironic, because one of the things you were talking about was Danny going crazy in the bells episode, and for a second I thought I was Danny in the episode Bells LOL.
Why does absolutely no other comment I’ve seen mention this? It’s way too late for Quinn to reupload it without losing an insane amount of views (though he probably should’ve watched the video back before uploading)
A big issue with the show is that they just started keeping and relying on old characters that fans seemef to like. Like Bronn snd even Cersei. Being stupid stoppef having consequences.
@@olofacosta3192 Oh ye that is definetly true. Poor Roose got sidelined for Ramsay. Also gonna put in the Hound here because ye he didnt need to come back...
@@Human-zx4rbthe hound is pretty well confirmed alive in the books. He’s a peaceful gravedigger now in a little village. I think he’ll have some sort of affect on Arya’s arc since he’s given up the assassin life and she’s just started.
@@briannakirkman6565 I am well aware of that thank you. However they didnt bring him back as that in the show, instead he was just more of the same which is why i said what i said.
I also think Euron’s character assassination was a big problem. He’s clearly going to be the big bad, but what they did to his character was embarrassing. Same for the entire Dorne plot line which could have been great!
Yeah I'm with you. As bad as fAegon's omission was, I feel like nothing can compare to how terrible show Euron was. He was essentially just a glorified pawn of Cersei, which made the entire ironborn storyline just utterly and completely pointless
@@space_orphan they also got his personality completely wrong, being this character in the show that watchers couldn’t take seriously. They also made him miraculously kill rhaegal for some reason?
@@jadenmoyers837 I wouldn't be surprised if Euron actually kills one of the dragons in the book (although with some dark magic most likely) and GRRM told them that plot point but D&D couldn't figure it out so they just decided "fuck it, give him one in a billion ballista shot and let's move on"
Dance with Dragons came out a few months just after the show started airing, they knew damn well everything of importance that they were leaving out, they just didn’t give a sh-t.
Honestly, I think the Tysha omission is still a larger mistake. Beyond neutering Tyrion and Jaime’s characters, it makes Dany’s last minute heel turn even stupider (presumably the Punished Tyrion of the books will have a strong influence on the rise of the “Mad Queen”), indirectly removes the Riverlands arc by taking away any of Jaime’s motivations, which in combination with the lack of Stoneheart led to the ridiculous Frey Massacre by Arya and the travesty of season 5-6 Brienne, and so on…it’s a domino-caused comedy of errors.
I would say the Tysha confession is also extremely important in the way it affects Jaime, not just Tyrion. It's what causes Tyrion to tell Jaime that Cersei's been fucking "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know". Jaime is tortured by this reveal and constantly thinks of it throughout Feast. It irrevocably shatters their relationship to the point where Jaime burns Cersei's letter that begs him for aid. The show struggles with how to break Jaime and Cersei apart and then has Jaime do random, out of character things to return to her in Season 8 just to give them an anticlimactic death together, in an attempt to parallel them being brought into this world in the same womb or something.
If you consider that the books haven't even showed the white walkers doing anything significant you see the problem the showrunners had with finishing it.. but the worst was the abandonment of the Azor Ahai plotline
Despite how bad Euron Greyjoy and by extension the Ironborn were treated throughout the show i stand by the opinion that the Exclusions of the Tysha reveal and Varys's hidden Plan of fAegon and the Blackfyre/Golden Company Faction is what truly destroyed the character motivations of nearly every character in Westeros. Think about how big of a Rug Pull it wouldve been to see Tyrion treking across Essos,with the Audience believing we will be seeing Him meet up with Dany all the while they sprinkle teases about the Golden Company on the March and group of followers surrounding a certain Teenage Boy until finally the reveal of The Golden Company,Jon Connington and Aegon son of Rhaegar decide to march on Westeros. This single move wouldve been all the motivation to get Dany to muster her forces,solidify her rule in Slavers bay and Sail for Westeros.
I think this has been even made worse by conflating Jon's character with young Griff. For example, all the rifts between Jon and Dany would have been easily solved by marriage, they are on the same team and Jon doesn't care about ruling. On the other hand, young Griff wants to rule and if he already had King's Landing, Dany wouldn't have as much leverage.
Conflating the two, & yet not breathing new life into him, pardon the pun; as far as I'm concerned, no pyre for Jon was also a mistake (hiding his heritage for so long was probably the single dumbest thing done to Jon** ) - & not giving him *_more_* on his rebirth- turning him into a side character, where he should have been front & centre- is stupidity I will never understand: there was an absolutely golden opportunity to pull out more of BookJon's qualities from this point- the strategic mind, the hints of ambition, the anger he can't explain - but nope, let's just keep him as a largely retiring moody bastard (pun intended), the reluctant hero with no interest in power for no reason other than memeability (Jon may never have sought out power or authority, but leadership suited him like a glove- he stepped up without complaints, where necessary & did his level best, even with some against him: imagine how much *more* could be accomplished later, with _willing_ followers...) Let's just ignore the fact that it's the **perfect** opportunity for natural growth & development; to call back to Maester Aemon, to give us something unexpected that _still_ *makes sense* . My headcanon was that a resurrected Jon, darkly charismatic & fiercely focused could have taken the mountain clan sub-plot of Stannis, & Sansa could have taken on a Val-esque role (they'd already stupidly conflated her with fArya/ Jeyne Poole, _this_ change at least would have been an upgrade, if they weren't going to give her, her book-plot), instead of that painful struggle to get allies that they went with - yes, those scenes showcases Davos & Lyanna Mormont, but at what cost to the greater story? Idiot that I am, I had this sliver of hope that when- not only did he execute the leading assassins & declare his time at the Night's Watch ended with a finality that defied _anyone_ to challenge him, & later laughed & smiled with Sansa after his resurrection (more than he had in all the previous seasons combined), that Jon was being developed into something more complex - I was kind of hoping for a link back to Maester Aemon- some kind of informal statement that the boy commander that was Jon Snow did indeed die, that he would have to be someone else, now- & he would discover who, in time... BOOM- you essentially relaunch the character, with almost a blank state; Jon's memories & experiences, but he's not tied to/ weighed down by them... But nope- no growth, no depth, no challenge - Jon just kind of exists, after s6- every now & then he's focused on something, but he's not actively seeking purpose- he's declared King in the North, but doesn't think about what that means, & he later gives it up with scarcely any thought. There's no thought for what it means to his people, to have donet that- or that maybe it could have been sacrificed strategically.... * Also, that **HIS NAME IS Jaehaerys, UNTIL GRRM TELLS ME OTHERWISE** Jaehaerys II (it'd be III in the book), the New/ Young Conciliator I cry for the wasted potential...😢
cutting JonCon but keeping his Bells PTSD and using it randomly for another character is the dumbest thing ever feels like GRRM told them "yeah so JonCon has this thing with hearing bells and when he hears them during his invasion he will snap and destroy the city" and D&D were like "oh well shit, we already removed him from the show what now"
One thing I realized is that in season 1 Jon Arryn was the one who figure out Cersei’s children being bastards, even though it was actually Stannis who figured that out first. I think that they changed this in the show, especially later with how Stannis’s story is changed from the books, is that the producers really did not like Stannis (or don’t know how to adapt him to TV), so that they just portrayed him as a power hungry person who just jumped on the first opportunity to be the king.
@@joaocalixto1686 renly would have made a better king. He new how to get the lord's on his side and we don't have any reason to believe he wasn't fiscally responsible. Stannis's big problem is nobody likes him and he doesn't care. He does what he does because he believes in the system and the laws as they are even though they are unjust. He accepts that and fights a losing war because he's supposed to be king.
@@kaemonbonet4931 I would argue an impartial leader who follows unjust laws and applies them as equally as possible is much better than a partial leader who shows favouritism to his friends and benefactors meanwhile is inconsistent in his application of law, following laws he agrees with while breaking laws he disagrees with. I sincerely see Renly no different to a modern politician who is bankrolled by the elite. Whereas Stannis is the harsh, blunt, uncharismatic yet is stalwart in their beliefs and never has their integrity comprised by wealth or relationships
@@tripledigit4835 I get what you're saying but a big theme in these books is the consent of the governed. I really think stannis is here to be a foil for Jon. Also, we shouldn't mistake stannis for an egalitarian. He is a noble in a world of kings and peasants. He thinks he would be a better king, but he also does not believe in the right of self determination. He is a clever tactician, but not a freedom fighter.
@@kaemonbonet4931 equal application of unjust laws does not equal egalitarian I agree with you. And you are right, Stannis does not believe in self determination but no one really does at least not for the vast majority of people. There are several characters who believe in self determination for themselves and their vassals but that’s not really self determination if the people are excluded
I couldn't agree more, but there's something I would like to add: House of the Dragon revealed that the infamous "Song of Ice and Fire/Prince that was Promised" is actually a Targaryen prophecy that comes from Aegon the Conqueror himself. We know that this is George R. R. Martin's idea, and it's likely book canon as well. This is extremely important, because Aegon the Conqueror specifically said that the Seven Kingdoms need to be united under the rule of a Targaryen prince in order to survive the upcoming apocalypse. There are plenty of clues in the books that hint at the fact that fAegon/Young Griff isn't a true Targaryen, but a Blackfyre. So, fAegon will claim the Iron Throne in The Winds of Winter, but he isn't the Prince that was Promised, which means that Westeros cannot survive under his rule. In comes Daenerys. She will surely discover the Conqueror's prophecy at some point, and she will instantly know that fAegon isn't a real Targaryen, since she has already been warned about a "false dragon" by both Quaithe and the Undying (who called her "Slayer of Lies"). Dany will understand that getting rid of fAegon and taking the Throne for herself is mandatory to fulfill this prophecy, but the people of Westeros won't know that. They will see Daenerys as a foreign invader who burned cities in the East, leads an army of Dothraki, sellswords, and freed slaves, and now comes to bring fire and blood to a kingdom that is finally in peace after so many years of war. Everyone in Westeros will back fAegon. They will love him and see him as a true Targaryen, but Dany will know better: his claim is nothing but a lie, and she is the Slayer of Lies. At this point, all we need for Dany to coherently burn the Red Keep with fAegon inside, accidentally causing the destruction of King's Landing by reaching the wildfire with her dragonflame, is Jon Snow telling her about the Others and the fact that the Wall has already fallen. Now there you have it: Daenerys' tragedy WELL WRITTEN. All thanks to fAegon.
my one singular worry about this is how long in ados this is gonna take - we barely have enough time in winds for dany to get to westeros and the walls probably gonna have to fall at the end of winds too - so ados gonna be crazy if this needs to happen on top of everything with the others. I do like the idea though.
@@mschell8022 If you're talking about Aegon's dream, I said that it is likely book canon because Ryan Condal (showrunner of House of the Dragon) confirmed that this idea came from George himself.
Spenglenoodle as a Dany fan I could say that even after all the horrible things they did with her character none of them could be worse of what they did to Stannis, for me one of the biggest shames of the show
They messed up in season four too, by leaving out the tysha confession and "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and moonboy for all I know" by proxy messing up Jaime and Tyrions character arcs for the next half of the show Edit: oh you mentioned it partially but I personally think it's the most egregious I think
When it comes to the question of which change from the books ruined the show, what we have is what French philosopher and sociologist Louis Althusser would call a case of overdetermination. D&D made a whole series of glaring omissions and changes _every single one of which_ would have been enough to ruin the show or at least large individual arcs within it _even all by its own._ I agree that the Aegon omission was the most glaring and most consequential one, but it had no impact whatsoever on how the show ruined Dorne, or Euron, in the sixth season, for example. Or Arya's arc in season 6. Or Stannis' story in season 5, which affected a whole bunch of other characters and arcs.
I thought season 5 was the start of its downfall. Its not true that they ran out of source material. There is so much, basically a feast for crows was omitted, and Young Griff. New characters were not introduced, and that had a butterfly effect. There was a lot of material, they just chose not to adapt it
My one small quibble with the video is that, if the books play out in at least semi-plausible way - Aegon VI is not letting Cersei, assuming she survives the fall of King's Landing, out without major consequences. There are just going to be too many people by this point who want her dead - the Faith (for killing the High Sparrow and the execution of Ned Stark), the common people (for that plus just about everything to do with her handling of the city), and the Tyrells (for murdering Margery). Not to mention Aegon could well be itching to punish the Lannisters and Cersei is by far the easiest target. Cersei losing her head or burning would be a huge propaganda triumph for Aegon. And narratively that isn't a problem because I think it was one of the central problems of late Game of Thrones that they kept Cersei's arc going for far, far too long. Which meant the show never turned and indeed couldn't turn to the interesting dynamic that Aegon's existence presents for Jon and Dany - what do two figures with messianic pretensions (arguably delusions) who believe that they are the only people who can right a string of great wrongs and avert the apocalypse do when that wrong has been righted and averting the apocalypse no longer is no longer completely connected to putting themselves on the throne?
The idea of a common folk rebellion against the crown plus all other warring factions vying for power could’ve been a cool idea. Maybe bastards of nobles trying to weasel there way into power this way to be either trusted or turned on. Edit: also if aegon is a false targaryen but marries danerys the Targaryen name and blood still technically get passed down so it can be a win win if looked at that way.
Great work, Quinn! No worries about the audio issue. I think you’re right that Aegon being omitted is probably the most impactful. However, I’d also like to suggest that the way Euron was handled should be a close second. Having “Book Euron” in the show would completely change the way we view Cersei’s final arc and likely the way she approaches Dany’s arrival entirely.
Those are all good points, but ultimately I do not think it was an omission that caused the problem. Watching couple of videos of GRRUM about writing for Hollywood I am under the impressions they pushed too much on "surprise the viewers" tactics. He said couple of times how they constantly repeated, in his days there: "More action, more action". I am imagining similarly "More surprises, more surprises", not understanding that people liked for example the red wedding, not only because it surprised them, but because also it made sense. I am sure even if D&D did not introduce any more characters, they could have made a more sensible finish with what they have, given the chance. I think "what will the viewers like" policy puts too much pressure and makes writers be focused on the wrong thing.
Didn’t they say that completely subverting viewers expectations was the best thing to do? Like having Arya kill night king instead of Jon? Just because something is unexpected does not mean it’s good
@@jadenmoyers837 The show was always known for subverting expectations with things like Ned Stark's death, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, etc. Once the writers no longer had GRRM's work to go on, the quality of the writing took a nosedive. What we got in later seasons was bad writers attempting to capture the subverting expectations style.
In the end, I can understand why they removed Tysha because Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion are very different characters. I almost feel like D&D made Tyrion so likable that people wanted him to get the throne, so they paired him up with Dany (non-romantically), had him fall for her and constantly make bad decisions for the rest of the show, so that we will be thankful that he gets to be Hand in the Ending instead of being executed.
What ruined it? It had been bad for a while but when arya killed: little finger, the freys, the white walkers and for very little didn’t kill cersei as well I noticed they had ruined it forever
Looking back to season 1, Dany's arc was doomed the moment they changed the context of her wedding night with Drogo. It's still messed up because of the age difference, but at least the books didn't have repeated sexual assault as a preamble to a loving relationship. Like, it's sad to think that the signs were always there for so much of the show overall.
YES, I"m so glad someone else sees this. Drogo asking for consent is literally the first time in her life Dany has any agency at all...and she runs with it! She enjoys feeling empowered and starts dreaming of being queen. I think if she had just traded one abuser for another she would have stayed quiet and zombie-ish like she was in the beginning of the show, not suddenly blossomed into strength and power. (What kind of misanthrope thinks people get stronger through abuse/rape? D&D are horrible.) It is also her weakness. She wants to free slaves because she remembers how horrible it felt, but she's constantly surprised when they don't feel grateful and rise from it the way she did. Like trusting the blood witch and being shocked when some of the Meereenese slaves sell themselves back into slavery...I think it's a blind spot that's going to keep biting her in the ass.
@cam1772fsu huh?💀, she's a literal child, her "consent" is not a valid one, and the witch was crazy, dany saved her from further harm and the witch killed her child in return, and the people who want sell themselves were a very very few of GENTLY born
@Aydan2108 like, yeah, but it wasn't the same as the way it happened in the show. At the very least, the wedding night was different and there's still a debate about whether Drogo did anything afterwards or if it was just Dany having riding sores (if I remember correctly. Might have been confirmed otherwise).
Yeah I can’t believe they left Faegon Blackfyre out of the show, you also should’ve mentioned the grand northern conspiracy and weyman manderlee /stannis storyline that was cut from the show
They tried to replace Aegon's story with Jon in season 8 as being the favorite among the people after the fight with White Walkers and Daenerys being jealous about it. Though that only works with The North's people and the Southerns wouldn't care about a Nothern King no matter how good unless Jon's true identity had been revealed but that didn't go anywhere either as most of the people in Westeros never knew the truth about Jon even by the end of the show.
One massive change that happened is something not a lot of people take into account: Since Martin stopped working together with D&D, the showrunners stopped looking at the "big picture" of the conflict of ASOIAF, which is not driven by individual desire, but by social norms and values, laws, feudal logic, simple environmental struggle (the thought that winter simply ended when the night king was killed is not only absurd, it actively contradicts everything we know about winter; that it is a devestating season, filled with death and misery, regardless of how long it is. As the other seasons so far have been longer than usual, the coming winter will be catastrophic, white walkers or no.) and the capacity to bring allies to your cause. Think about it. Other than the sons of the harpy and the faith militant (both of which were already a faction in the books, which the writers adapted.), what major, non-individual faction is affecting the plot in any major way? The showrunners thought, wrongly, that the central conflict of game of thrones is between queens, kings and dragon riders. This is false. None of the events of the first 4 seasons are even thinkable, if we remove the very core of the story, social turmoil, change, and resistance to seemingly destructive outside social elements. The call for independence in the north, has nothing to do with Catelyn's or Robb's own desires. The movement of the wildlings, has nothing to do with mance rayder's personal wishes. The death of Jon Snow has EVERYTHING to do with how he forced his enemies to serve under him, increasingly provoking them with adding wildlings and giants to his cause. It doesn't matter how justified he is in doing this, what matters is the cause and effect of this uprooting of centuries long social norms, the clashing of cultures and the violence that is inevitable when things come to a boil. Dany solves her issues in meereen with yet another show of force and nothing more. She wins over the khalasar, through an act of individualism, instantly winning them over by.....burning their most sacred temple??? She then hands over meereen to fucking Daario. DAARIO. A mercenary commander with a big mouth and half a brain. Nothing comes of this decision. In fact, I'm pretty sure D&D "kinda forgot" Daario even existed anymore. No more sons of the harpy, no populist uprisings, no massive unrest, desertion or any other type of social fallout. Nothing. Dany won, because I guess she's just that much of a girlboss. This completely IGNORES 3/4 of the plot of meereen in the first place and it's central theme: how a foreign coup d'etat can't afford to ignore local customs, laws and culture without inciting conflict and endangering your cause, no matter how justified the cause might be. Cersei's blowing up of the sept is, as you noted, a schoolbook example of this. An act of terror against an increasingly radicalizing, continent-spanning religious order of zealots, results in.....her coronation and IMMEDIATE pacification of said radicalized group. Jesus fucking christ what a complete shitshow. D&D weren't interesting in showing anything remotely interesting about the mechanics of this FEUDAL world, instead wanting to focus more and more on just how awesome cersei and dany and Sansa and Arya are. George understands that his characters are not independent from one another. He understands that their decisions have rippling effects that connect all of them, because the mechanics of this world allow for that connection to happen in the first place. By removing the central conflict of the story, THE FEUDAL SYSTEM BEING FOUNDED ON A PERPETUAL CYCLE OF WAR FOR THE VANITY AND PROFIT OF MILITARY DICTATORS AT THE TOP, one essentially removed the cause and effect driven narrative that was so absolutely essential to ASOIAF and the first 4 seasons of game of thrones. D&D actually did it. They managed to convince themselves that Game of Thrones was nothing more but the "red wedding show" and the "subversion of expectation" story. It's a show about a girlboss getting dragons and slaying, literally. She was gonna break the wheel by...FIRMLY REPAIRING IT.
The biggest downfall of the show is a lack of developed secondary characters. In the books, there’s a character anyone can enjoy, and most of the side characters feel like people - we don’t get that in the show.
I think an omission as early as season 1 led to the show’s downfall- Jeyne Pool, Sansa’s childhood friend who marries Ramsay as the fake “Arya Stark”. In the show, Jeyne doesn’t exist, and they have Sansa take her place. This messes up not only her arc and character by interrupting her learning politics from Baelish, but also messes with the character and trajectory of Baelish, Brienne, and even Jaime. Baelish appears either completely evil or a fool, neither of which fits with his character. Yes, he is shady and malevolent, but he isn’t evil for the sake of it. He has a goal, and that goal involves Sansa. Jaime and Brienne have their last moment together when Jaime gives Brienne oathkeeper and tells her the truth about the fake Arya, bidding her to seek out the true Stark girls. This is a sign of trust between them- this secret getting out could be disastrous, but Jaime knows Brienne will keep it. No such exchange can take place in the show, and Brienne is rejected by Sansa immediately and then stalks her for a season. It’s very odd.
You just blew my mind. Connington mentions that if he had razed the Stony Sept instead of searching house to house for Robert during the Battle of the Bells, he could've ended the rebellion and saved the targaryens. He might choose the other way when daenarys attacks kings landing and threatens aegons rule, especially under the influence of greyscale. Exactly the type of terrible decision a likeable character would make in asoiaf.
For me it was the exclusion of the Valonqar prophecy. Up until that point I was all in on the creative licenses that the show runners had taken, but somehow I just knew that when they left that part out, they were not going to end things the way GRRM wanted and that Dan and Dave were going to do their own thing with regards to Cersei’s end and it wouldn’t be a satisfying one.
The fact that GRRM himself hasn't managed to bring his unwieldly horse into the barn tells me that the story is likely beyond saving. There are just too many plotlines, too many characters and too many unexplained powers. The Sparrows are a prime example of this. They are added too late in the narrative to make good sense, kind of like when a bad murder mystery introduces a new character in the last couple chapters who ends up being the culprit. Aegon and the Dornish plot are in the same boat, as is Lady Stoneheart. There are just too much other things going on to shoehorn in these new characters and plotlines.
but all the characters you mentioned are not "last minute" additions. There's still 2/3 more books to go. so plenty of story to flesh them out. But most of these characters are red herrings to the big bad in the North.
@@epochal1224 But the problem is that they're not fleshed out now, even after five very large books. Instead we have chapter after chapter of pointless endeavors like Brienne's useless quest, the Adventures of Quentyn Martel and the detailed history of Crackclaw Point. All this excess dressing has left us with a narrative pace that has slowed to a crawl. If Young Griff is really so important, let's focus on him more on him and less on things like the exciting journeys of Mya Stone as she travels from the Eyrie to the Vale.
While I agree the omission of Aegon was bad for the show, I really think it only impacted Denaris in seasons 5 & 6 and didn't hit Cercei until season 7. But the whole show suffered from dropping a multitude of plots. Stoneheart wasn't a factor because they changed Jamie's plot so completely. While the Tysha reveal didn;t really impact Tyrion that heavily because they just gave him another motivation to kill Tywin (though it was unsatisfactory). Season 5's real problem is that it and season 4 dropped countless plot points. It missed introducing the valunqar prophecy, an actual Doran Martell, Dark Star, Stoneheart, the actual events surrounding Jon's election, Elaine Stone, Nester Royce, Lady Dustin, Wyman Manderly, Stong Belwas, Jayne Pool, the tattered prince, the Greyjoy's, killing Mance Rayder and maester Aemon, etc. You could go on almost forever with what is dropped during seasons 5,6 and 7 which made the show worse but the truth is that they made terrible mistakes as far back as season 2. To name just a few: They omitted Mormont's raven. They omitted all of the northern nobles. They introduced Taliza and omitted Jane Westerling and then killed Tiliza off in season 3. They omitted Mercy and paired Aria with Tywin rather than Roose Bolton. They omitted Rob naming Jon as his heir. So sure they could have included Aegon and his crew and made the show somewhat better in late season 5 and after but there were a great many other things which could have made it better. They could have introduced the northern conspirators and the Vale politics and done the same. They could have expanded the cast in Mereen in seasons 3 and 4 to make that story better (the Martell and Greyjoy casts come to mind here). They could have made Dorne actually interesting rather than just a side plot for Jamie. They could have sent Jamie to the river lands and introduced Stoneheart. They could have made Euron Greyjoy an actual frightening creature rather than a rock and roll Jack Sparrow. But there were reasons they couldn't add Aegon. First, that would have just added another storyline to follow in seasons 6 and 7 which had none of the original characters (because Tyrion exits that orbit rather quickly). They removed Varys from Kings Landing. This also would have left the TV show's Mereen storyline with no POV characters from the end of season 5 to the end of season 6 because they killed Barristan in season 5. Season 5 was a no win situation due to the mistakes made earlier and everything afterward was a shit show because of what was done in season 5. So while season 2,3 and 4 were passable, season 5 suffered from earlier omissions and was only able to deal with the aftermath of the previous four seasons. Its biggest problem was nothing new happened, because no new interesting characters were introduced, and no known characters were elevated in importance to replace those that died in seasons 3 and 4. Season 5 also really suffered from Winds of Winter not coming out because why would you introduce FAegon, Stoneheart or even Euron and Victarion Greyjoy when you have absolutely no idea how their story's will play out? So while you can have blamed GRRM for everything after season 5/6 sucking you get to instead hang everything after 4 on D & D (this is not to say that there wasn't some really good stuff in seasons 5-6).
The Show screwed up Catelyn from the very beginning. They tried to humanize her more. She manipulated Eddard to go to King's Landing and started the war with the Lannisters through her arrogantly stupid actions. Like Cersie, she tried to play the game of thrones; and like Cersie, so many other people died for it before she finally died. So the show leaving out Lady Stoneheart (which arguably she embodies from the beginning) isn't that bad. Now leaving out the Faegon and Tisha confession story lines, that harmed the ahow big time.
I agree completely on the change / omission of Aegon, attempting to merge the story line of the son of Rhaegar with that of Ned Stark's son for the sake of garnering the support of fans by using a fan theory just went so horribly wrong. On the cloth or mummers dragon, that was Dany herself while she was in slavers bay, as there she was pretending or just practicing. Westeros is where she truly belongs. I don't see Aegon marrying another like Arianne Martell or Margaey Tyrell as he was already set on Daenerys, and if he wants a dragon he should keep himself open. And I find it extremely unlikely that Targaryen restoration would cause Dany to want to fight her nephew.
@@joaocalixto1686 Before they made that claim the two D's said that Jon was "The descendant of Ned Stark" in season 5 interviews. You know, the first season were the quality of the show dropped off dramatically and the fans began to turn on them. What better way for two hacks who can't write for themselves to garner the support of the fans that had turned on them than to lift a popular fan theory off the internet? Descendant is a very specific term, your nephew isn't your descendant and an adopted son would not be called your descendant. You do know that GRRM's own wife has said that RLJ is too simple / tropey for him, right ? After season 4 of the OG show D&D cut off communications with GRRM. I think his wife would be much better informed than those two hacks.
@@Jacaerys4life descendant is just a word they chose to say that they are related without claiming any parentage. And like, again, these guys got the job by rightfully guessing Jon's true parentage Just face it, anything other than R+L=J is a major cope
@@joaocalixto1686 Ignoring the definition of descendant and pretending they meant something else is the true cope here. Using that word literally claims parentage. If they said "raised as a son" that would be the vague terms you're looking for. But no they used a word that described Jon as being the natural son of Ned Stark, which he is. Cope about it. N + A = J and R + L = A / V
@@Jacaerys4lifedidn't u see the video r+l=j Martin himself agrees with that and it's canon u can cope yourself and cry about it because the books are never gonna get finished the show version is the only thing that remains also Martin himself has said if some fans found about what's gonna happen in the next book he isn't gonna change anything to subvert exceptions like d and d
(f)Aegon not being in the show is definitely the biggest & most apparent change with the Dornish Masterplan being in close second. When first watching the show, the "House of the Undying"-part being trimmed down so heavily really disturbed me somehow - it just felt s unnecessary.
Hope the Jon Snow show will be good. I wish it will pick up some of the book stuff that were overlooked by the show. If they do it well then many fans will consider it the real ending of GoT. Just my opinion
I'm 99% sure it will be bad af. With a very lazy catch like "the night king has returned". They just shouldn't go through with this. I still hope that it will be cancelled at some point
In 2019 I published an article observing that the big problem with late-period GoT was placing Jon Snow at the Battle of Hardhome in episode 5.8. The vivid characterisations and narrative thrust of Martin's work derives from irony; we watch these people tearing each other to pieces in the knowledge that, unbeknownst to them, a terrible icy reckoning is coming. That situation abides in the books, but in GoT Jon goes to Hardhome, slays a White Walker and locks eyes on the Night King. This is basically the climax of the story; the man who knows nothing in fact knows everything. And as he spreads the word, all narrative and moral complexity evaporates; these people know what's coming for them, those who team up against it are good guys, and naysayers are bad guys. So seasons 6-8 boil down to the question of whether there will be enough good guys - an insufficient hook, it transpires, for 25 hours of television spread over four years. So to my mind late-period GoT wasn't rushed, it was interminably drawn out (which of course focuses our attention on the accumulation of other faults).
There’s a lot that could be pointed at as the downfall of the show. Hubris, the omission of Aegon, not having Jaime and Tyrion have the Tysha discussion, Bran’s story not getting fleshed out remotely, etc. I’ve seen a lot of people blame George Martin for not having the series done, which is fair, but even if he had finished it I don’t think it would’ve changed a whole lot with the show. D&D had changed so much of the story that by the time the show reached ADWD it was barely even recognizable as an adaptation of that book. They cut so many storylines without realizing how crucial they were to character development and the story as whole. I truly believe D&D thought they could finish this story better than George could, which to me is evident judging by what cast members have stated about the pair and the fact that George hadn’t worked on episode since season 4.
Without patch face this show failed. It was doomed from season 2 without patch face being shown on the opening scene where Stannis is licking his wounds on dragon stone. I quit when I didn’t see patch face
Some scenes and characters I wish had been included seasons 1-4. 1)Joffrey and Robb arguing in winterfell yard about sword training. 2)Jaime’s and Cersei’s conversation before ‘the things I do for love’ 3)Robert’s and Ned conversation in Ned II 4)Tyrion’s conversation win Jon is more detailed in Tyrion II 5)In Sansa I and Ned III we see the book version of Renly(Tall, Handsome and being a joker). First character to be changed for no reason. We are missing here his japes from this 2 chapters. 6)Bran I. We see nothing about his dream. 7)3/4 of Catelyn III are missing(She comes by a ship and plans what to do with Rodrik) 8) Jon conversation with Donal Noye and Tyrion in Jon III. 9) Ned tells about his plans to Cat(Moat Cailin being garrisoned and Cat to keep a close eye to Theon in case of war) 10) Tyrion dines with the high officers from the nights watch(Tyrion III) 11) a more detailed conversation again with Catelyn and ser Rodrik from Catelyn V 12) Some action from the hands Tourney, Sansa and Jeyne Pool being impressed and from the dinner with king Robert to the hound telling her his story about his face. 13) More detailed conversations with Robert and Varys from Ned VI. 14) Cat meets with Brynden and Mya stone before his party reach Eyrie. 15) Viserys being carried with a cart to Vaes dothrak, and the roasting from ser Jorah. 16) Ned’s dream about tower of joy 17) 1/2 of Catelyn VII is out of the series(conversation with Rodrik, Blackfish and Lysa Tully. 18)I don’t remember If Jon V adapted to the screen, if not it’s 50/50 if someone likes it. 19) Varys missing from the Ned throne scene. 20)whole Sansa III chapter is missing. I like it shows his desires about staying in KL. 21) Cersei and Ned meeting was in the godswood here I didn’t like the space. 22) Ned discuss with Varys and Ser Barristan about lancel and the wine the king drunk when he was hunting. 23) A more detailed adaption from Sansa IV 24)Poor scene where Catelyn finds Robb’ host at moat cailin. Wee sure need all the conversation about their future war plans along with the introduction of Roose Bolton. 25) All the lines from Sansa V. My favourites chapter from her from AGOT. 26) Varys and Ned conversation in the black cells is way better than the two separate dialogues from the show 27)Catelyn gets some news from her uncle about their enemies moves(Cat IX) 28)The battle of the green fork. Ok maybe we are asking a lot😂. 29) Bran VII is nice. We got nothing from that in the show. 30)Tywin’s war council plans for the future. 31) Catelyn sees her father and the conversation between Stark and Tully bannermens which leads to King in the Nort. I said seasons 1-4 and only mentioned missing parts from the first book😂
If you are a reader, you will always be disappointed in what does, and does not, wind up on screen. I have lost count of how many times that has happened to me throughout my life.
@@tessdurberville711 GOT left out so many scenes and preferred to give us some other scenes and characters. They didn’t even follow the first 3 books completely. See how many thing I wrote here.
I completely agree. Dropping fAegon was one of the things that set up a dynamic that mostly breaks the characters. I think it was an intentional error done to stream line the plot by making a single narrative that in the book will play out as two parallels. That said, i think you're underestimating the impact of LSH. In fact, I think removing LSH was actually an earlier change done to remove the second narrative. Why? It's commonly believed that Robb named an heir in his will. My contention is that he didn't name an heir. He named an heir(king)maker. He had no idea when she would fall or if his wife was pregnant when he left her at Riverrun. His goal was to prevent choas and ensure there was no fight. So what he did was name Catelyn to name his heir. This is important because I think most readers focus too hard on her revenge actions and not on the fact he's also going after people who might know about Arya even though it must be common knowledge that fArya has been married. She appears to be subtly looks for a daughter. One I believe she intends to crown. LSH was removed to get rid of this parallel plot over Winterfell and house Stark. fAegon was removed to get rid of the contest between the Targaryens. By removing both they set up the elements for a single contest between Jon and Dany. Have you had a chance to look at my parallel theory?
I am glad you bring up the crowing of Cersei after the destruction of the Great Sept. This makes no sense at all. When the Papal States were defeated in the unification of Italy, destruction of the Vatican would have provoked a war.
I've been slowly reading the books since about 2015 and at long last, I'm about halfway through A Dance with Dragons. I legitimately have no idea why they would omit Young Griff/Aegon and his group from the show. His presence adds so much to the story and gives characters a sense of direction that they do not have in the latter part of the show (looking at you Varys and Tyrion). I still have about 600 pages to read and I'm thoroughly enjoying the story, but it comes with a bitter aftertaste knowing that GRRM doesn't seem to prioritize finishing TWoW anytime soon...
What broke GoT is that they completely changed the structure of their show, once they ran out of source material. They could have left out more or less whatever content they wanted, and it would still have been a good ending to the show, if they hadn't forsaken realistic character motivations and plotlines for "this happens because it's baddas and or subverts your expectations!" and stuck to the themes of the book.
I’m re-reading the series now. I completely forgot about Jon Connington haha Also, I didn’t hate the series. The quality dropped drastically from seasons 7-8, but I legitimately enjoyed everything before that (except Dorne… which to be fair, I didn’t care for in the books either, but my option my change during this re-read - who knows). Enjoying your channel so far!
I was going to comment something in the template of 'the memes weren't memeing', but it just turned out as 'the writers weren't writing' which was the literal problem for seasons 7 & 8, some would even add season 6.
No Grand Northern Conspiracy, No Mannis, No Magic, No Young Griff, No Rhoynar water magic, No Game of 9 Penny Kings, No DragonHorn, No Victorian, no common Sense. You hate to see such raw potential completely neglected, taken behind the barn, shot and shitted on. Like ugh.
The worse omission is Jayne Poole. This meant that Sansa had to go to Winterfell early, marry Ramsey, and then needed a reward for all her suffering so it passed as character development. But George is somewhat predictable in that your dreams and desires are not always what makes you happy or what you need. One reason I see Arya growing up, maturing, and being happily pregnant many times to the lord of the "castle", but maybe one she chooses (Hot pie) and not one her father does. Sansa will never be the leader that Jon can be, but she can be a shrewd diplomat and can show an interest in the more mundane administration that Jon lacks the patience or interest for.
amazing video. Cutting Young Griff, Arianne, Lady stoneheart, specially Griff who has huge impact in Dany's future arc was a imense mistake by Dumb and Dumb. If they had do right even without the finals books, the last seasons could have been way better
I think Aegon's existence brings even Dany's legitimacy and identity into question. Why should Varys and Illyrio not have brainwashed 2 babies instead of 1 baby into thinking they're the totally realsesTarg children?
I don’t think the show needed Faegon. I also don’t think the books needed him until Martin decided to do something different with Jon Snow and so gave faegon part of Jon’s planned arch. Jon and Aegon are so similar it’s unreal almost too similar. I think originally Jon was suppose to take up the mantel King in the north and go south trying to recruit men for the coming white walker war only for his true heritage to surface and he is welcomed as the savior of Westeros and crowned king. At the same time Danny would finally land in Westeros where Jon would make a alliance with her (maybe marriage) saying she could be the real king and he would step aside as long as she took her army and dragons north with him to help save the world. Because of the prophecies Danny believes Jon is a pretender trying to trick her and she stabs him in the back red wedding style. Weakening the army of men even more before the true battle and maybe even resurrecting Jon as the new nights king and leader of the White walkers. But then Martin decided a new fate for Jon but still needed that conflict down south hence faegons creation. Which is a real shame as a Jon fanboy I would’ve loved to see Jon actually get a moment of badassness before dying which doesn’t seem to be coming now lol. Loved the video though!
I always understood the need for trimming plotlines and certain details, but the simplest issue that changed the dynamics between the books and the show was the size of the major families. The show seems to act as though there's a handful of each house's relatives alive. I assumed this was meant to add weight, tension, or drama to each circumstance 🤷♂ But it just added confusion and conflicting motivations. Most of the families in A Song of Ice and Fire are massive. There was never any kind of notion that there were no back-up Lannisters or Tyrells. Some of the schemes and plots that did make it into the show never really made much sense with the trimmed down version of the family trees.
Totally agree that Aegon was the most inpactful omission. More thematically, it's definitely noticeable that as the seasons moved further from GRRM's books they became more simplistic in morality as well as politically simplified. Throughout the seasons, every camp had some people we cheered for & some we despised; i.e. even though the Starks are generally meant to be seen as righteous, they had men like the Boltons onside. By the Very-Short Night in S8, basically every char the audience liked was aligned together against cartoonish villains.
I will also add that making the white walkers THE major threat. The conflict between Dany and the holder of the iron throne, whoever that may be, should be made nigh insignificant under the looming threat from the north. It most certainly shouldn't be a minor obstacle that Dany must overcome before moving on to the real problem facing the kingdom, who's ass is made uncomfortable on a metal chair.
It was all the small, and so often unnecessary changes, and the worst part was that they tried so hard for events of the book to happen in the show when they were already two complete different stories.
Absolutely the omission that ruined the show was “Aegon”. It ruined Varys’ true end game, it ruined the possibility that Jon’s real name is Aemon and it ruined Dorne, which the show also left out Arianne Martel, and she’s a fun character.
Yeah, the part about no consequences for Sersei destroying the sept is a good point. However I question if anyone outside of her and her minions actually knows she was responsible. Of course if anyone of influence of power outside of the crown is investigating it, it may only be some time before they discover her connection. Unless she had anyone involved killed. Also, yes removing the Lady Stoneheart angle - I really wanted to see vengeful zombie-Cat out there doing her thing. And finally I really love the Aegon angle as well and now I'm not even sure what the heck was going on in book 5 related to his choice to head to Westeros before meeting Dany. I'll definitely have to go back and re-read it. For my money I definitely want to see a good and worthy person sitting the iron throne. I would love it if Dany and Aegon could come to some kind of terms but with the way things go in these books that would be way too tidy and nice. And with the way her vision played out you can tell she comes all that way only to just barely fall short of her goal. Probably due to either the white walker threat or even Jon Snow himself. All in all the producers of the show made terrible, terrible mistakes in whatever it was they were trying to do. Heck if possible I would've loved it if they just kept in most if not all of the stuff you touched upon all the way through book 5 and then just put the show on hiatus until the books were actually finished. I would've waited X number of years for a more satisfying conclusion to the show. If people can wait 13 years for a sequel to Avatar I think I wait maybe half as long maybe longer for a better conclusion to GOT.
SO there’s an issue with the audio in the last couple minutes. I’m so sorry about that! I have no idea what happened, it was fine when I exported it. The subtitles work as intended, so maybe mute and listen that way. 😅
I am currently typing this as I’m sitting at my college graduation, so I apologize for not being able to fix it more directly than this! See you all soon!
Congratulations
It's all good, your content is still awesome and fun to listen to!
Congrats on graduating, dude.
Congrats!
This is awesome. I can't believe you're graduating today while still making all this amazing content. Congrats!!!! You have a very bright future :)
We all know the removal of strong belwas was what lead to the issues with the show
Great album by the way
You talking over yourself is really fun 13:23
Patchface was such an integral and honorable character that leaving him out left a massive void in all ongoing plot threads.
STRONG BELWAS NEEDS LIVER AND ONIONS!
Facts.
Cersei didn’t have a claim to the Iron Throne, was already hated, and blew the in world Vatican. For some reason, the writers thought she would get the throne by her own right without the lords doing nothing and with the smallfolk not rebelling.
Another thing that plays into this is that the world feels so... empty in the last 3 seasons. I can't exactly explain it, but sometimes it seems that main houses/characters are the only people left and they're just interacting with each other while all the background characters and minor houses are literally reduced to NPCs just standing there to fill screen space. Which is even more striking considering how many different minor characters are there in GRRM's novels and their impact on the story is quite substantial to the point where you feel like you're actually following a real world with tons of various relationships and interactions. This was one of the best aspects of the books for me and something that distinguishes ASOIAF from other fantasy and the last few seasons of the show simply lacked that realness
@@agentdrozd exactly this! When you start reading the books it feels unnecessary and overwhelming at first when you meet all these new "random" characters but it makes the world feel real.
The show felt like we started out with a good cast and it just decreased with every death and barely introduced new ones
Right
She blew the in world Vatican? That must’ve taken forever…
Yeah like the Targs *breathed* near the Faith and small folk rebelled, it’s just so dumb 💀
The exclusion of Aegon also ruins Varys' character. Were Tyrion travelling around with Aegon and Joncon in S05, Varys would get to stay in King's Landing. Even if he didn't kill Kevan Lannister in the show, they could still do something interesting with him subtly undermining Cersei's rule even further. As opposed to in the show where he does.... nothing until randomly getting himself killed through an obvious betrayal.
GREAT point, Varys makes a ton of sense if he’s supporting Aegon, but why would he try to poison Dany if he’s supporting her in the long run?
It's honestly funny how Varys, possibly the most slimy, scewy dude ever, using slave kids with their tongues cut out as spies, is pretty much just a good guy in GoT.
@@maxmustermann9058 I really don't understand people who think Varys is a good guy
@@maxmustermann9058 Writers broke their fingers trying to twist both him and Tyrion into honorable people lol
Not true, he lets Tyrion make a bunch of clever eunuch jokes
The Tysha confession IS what ruins Jamie’s arc, because it produces the “she’s been fucking Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Moonboy for all I know” confession, which is what haunts Jamie’s mind and drives him away from Cersei. Not hearing this is the reason Jamie stays by his sister’s side.
You’re right that it really diminishes his story, but the show could have salvaged this part of Jaime’s arc simply by having Lancel arrive in King’s Landing after his pious awakening, and confessing it to Jaime early in S5. You can make the argument this works more for TV.
They could have also had Varys spill the beans and explain it with “oh hey Tyrion, Jaime told me to tell you this when we worked together to free you”. This part is lazy writing, but it’s better than omitting it.
For a better solution, they could have also included a flashback in S5 to the whole story of Tysha to remind fans of what happened-and to go along with Cersei’s flashback of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy. I think such a flashback early on in this hypothetical S5 and the reveal of what truly happened later in the season is very fitting.
A flashback is also interesting because the memory of the Tysha story is very likely a POV trap through which Tyrion romanticizes their relationship (it’s very plausible that she didn’t believe she was in a position to say no to Tyrion when he proposed). This sets up a darker Tyrion, which many regular fans wouldn’t have been ready to see.
No Tysha confession also means no Punished Tyrion, which means no Mad Queen (or at least a heel turn that makes sense), which leads to the worst episode of Game of Thrones.
For Jaime, it’s the combination of omitting the Tysha confession *and* Stoneheart that leads to both him and Brienne getting neutered, since now both of them are completely ruderless. From season 5 onwards they become reactionary characters with little to no agency, just going from plot to plot as a sidekick.
I know that when they made this change in season 4 it ruined it for me. It caused a huge shift in whats to come and it just got worse and worse after it.
I guess but they gave tons of other reasons for Jaime to not be on her side such as when she betrayed the others against the dead and all the other ways she’s betrayed him. Even in the show with what they gave he never should’ve stuck with her
@@warlordofbritannia 🎉This.... 😢
it was a real shame they had to cancel the show after 4 seasons, I guess we'll never know what Tyrion got up to in Essos or how Charles Dance leaving the cast would affect the overall quality.
Well, at least they DID show those two extra seasons to let us know what they were planning on doing with the show, even though they couldn’t give us the ending.
so true bestie :(
rip Dorne :( it would have been great
How was Charles Dance going to stay as a cast member after getting shot and dying exactly the same way he did in the books?
@@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD uh, Lord Stoneheart?
They did 8 seasons and tyrion did go to essos.
Never forget what they did.
While yes the failure to include relevant plot characters from the book definitely hurt the TV Show I think issue that made the last few seasons as bad as they were is something more core.
An old UA-camr I used watch called the issue “the Cult of the Badass” In the books Arya is a traumatized child spiraling down of self destructive path of violence and vengeance, but in the show she’s a cool badass who can sword fight Breanne, kill the all the of the Freys, and stopped climate change by stabbing it. The books tries to balance cynicism and human goodness, but D&D are just full on soak in the cynicism while laughing at any form of human goodness, it’s why they turned Edmure Tully into a joke character.
Which UA-camr was this?
@@Sheija MrBtongue
Edmure Tully is a joke character in the novels as well. He is portrayed as a young, amiable knight who is rash, inexperienced, naive, and somewhat cooky. Very much a knight of summer
@@InquisitorThomas he unfortunately only. Makes a video every couple years
@@cameronmoore2713 No he isn’t! Edmure Tully was the only Lord in the book who actually gave a damn about his people, the people he is sworn to protect and has a duty to. He lets them into Riverrun rather than just leaving them outside the walls to just fend for themselves when Tywin Lannister is coming through, who is renowned for his cruelty and brutality, with his army. And why does he do it? Because they were afraid! Honestly, the Edmure disrespect is so gross.
And it was Robb Stark’s lack of communication with his generals as the leader of an army, when he knew he was marching off into the Westerlands from which he mightn’t return, which led to Edmure needing to make the decision about what to do based on the limited information he had. If anything it shows that Robb Stark was still a fifteen year old boy, and green as a commander, not that Edmure was incompetent.
We know he isn’t incompetent because he successfully manages to push Tywin and his army back.
He wasn’t aware of Robb’s plan for Tywin to be allowed to pass into the Westerlands, but that is on Robb Stark. Edmure was trying to protect Robb’s back and he was forced to make a judgement call on the fly without knowing the full plan.
He also spends months being threatened with daily executions outside riverrun, has the life of his young son threatened, and then walks into the castle to surrender it and instantly assista the Blackfish in escaping Jaime.
I think the reason Cersei blowing the Sept lacked in-universe consequences is because there was no in-universe reason she did it. According to Dean Charles Chapman (Tommen), Tommen was originally slated to die in battle; however, Benioff and Weiss changed their minds last-minute and wanted Tommen to die by suicide. This change was made after the S6 script was completed and costumes/props had been made to accommodate the battle (that's how last-minute it was). In any case, the Sept explosion only happened because B&W needed a reason for Tommen to kill himself. I'd also argue they needed to wrap a bunch of arcs quickly since they were barreling towards the show's finale without taking proper time to get there. Killing off loads of characters (Tyrells, Sparrows) in a manner that would drive Tommen to suicide gave B&W everything they wanted, so in their minds there was no reason for repercussions. Not to mention this set Lena Heady up for a strong emotive performance- something B&W deeply coveted in later seasons to shill their actors for awards. I'm starting to get mad so I can't say anymore lol.
Agree that fAegon was the most detrimental exclusion. Nice job, Quinn.
but music for that sept blowing up scene was good
@@villekuronen6242 True. However, it wasn't worth the damage to the plot. Also, it was a slap in the face to the costume/props team who'd worked hard on everything needed for the battle, and had already begun work on S7 stuff that was now disrupted to accommodate the last minute change. If you ask me, I'd have much rather seen a battle between the Faith and the Lannister/Tyrell forces.
@@ashleyofnaath Any sacrifice is worth the price to rid the world of ignorant fanatics.
@@sypherthe297th2 nah I liked them more than Cersei. The Sparrow subverting her ass had me jumping for joy
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I used to think Cersei was insufferable. . . then the High Douchebag showed up. My only regret is he didn't suffer. A lot.
I’ll never understand why they didn’t make the world as magical as it could’ve been. (I know budgetary issues were a factor) but still , it would’ve made it much better if we could’ve at least gotten “direwolves the size of pony’s” , proper warging/green seeing, colorful armor/banners/tapestries etc…
HoTD is doing much better with those things , which is good to see
It physically hurts me that we never got to see any of the sick ass helmets from the books, except for the hound but he only wore it it like... Twice?
Per Benioff and Weiss, they deliberately removed as many fantasy elements from the series as was feasible, to make the show appeal to a broader audience. So yeah, Lady Stoneheart and fully sized direwolves would've been too much for the soccer moms so they had to go.
they had infinite budget they are just 2 idiots
I think it's a bit disingenuous to blame budgetary issues, as GoT was the most popular show of all time and (at least after season 3 or 4) basically had a blank check from HBO. Blackwater was the most expensive episode of the first few seasons at $10mil, with season 8 having a budget of $90mil for only six episodes!
You can tell in the earlier seasons that budgetary constraints led to most large battles being off-screen, but once the awards and the viewership and the money started coming in, THAT'S when most of the fantasy and magical elements started to get dropped (or never even picked up). S1-S3 had dragons, wargs, greensight, resurrection, wights, blood magic, warlocks, faceless men, flaming swords, shadow assassins, glamors, prophetic visions... S7-S8 had dragons, and a very hastily-concluded plot with the White Walkers.
D&D just kind of forgot that they were directing a fantasy show I suppose 🤷♂️
@@ashleyofnaath I find it funny how that was their reasoning 😭 they didn’t even consider that a normal person might like it BETTER because of the fantasy elements
The omission of logic was probably the main problem with the TV show
Awwwwww yeeeah
Yeah, why argue over one side character over another when there was stupid stuff like. "OMG, they just killed a dragon with a ballista... run!!! OK, Plan B: We run right at the ballista with the dragons just like before, they certainly won't see it coming and there's absolutely no chance of failure again cuz of uhh.... plot reasons."
That and the omission of time and space.
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that Dany is integral to the story and her arc was ruined very early in season 2. The reduction of magic, the rearranging of the Qarth plot, Dany's motivations. This is what led to the Dany we had in season 8. Dany's season 2 plot is completely different to A Clash of Kings. Down to the smallest detail, her crown.
D and D clearly didn't want a lot of magic within their fantasy story and because Dany is a magical character, it was always going to negatively impact her storyline. One way or another.
Caveat: I've never read the books.
But even in the show, in the early seasons, it always blew my mind that there's all this literal proof of magic, the supernatural, and/or some type of higher power...and by the end, everyone just, kinda...forgot...about...all of that. What?!
@@thebert8141 So to fill you in a bit on the books, magic is so rare in the beginning of the books that it's the stuff of myth and legends to basically everybody in Westeros, and it's also usually extremely weak in the beginning. It's so rare that the Maesters of the Citadel don't have any historical records of it being used since the time of the Doom of Valyria. As time goes by, it starts getting stronger and stronger and it's hinted that its unexplained increase in potency might be related to the rebirth of the dragons. For example with the pyromancers in King's Landing, they were having an extremely hard time creating wildfire because it involves incantations that were recorded on old texts, but suddenly the incantations start becoming more effective.
But outside of places like Quarth or Asshai far across the ocean, "magic" is just the stuff of fantasy stories that parents tell their kids about at night to scare them about what's north of the wall.
@@BrySmi It's the city that has the creepy blue lipped warlocks.
What ruins it is the whitewashing of Tyrion and them not giving up some characters in seasons 5,6,7 to develop Euron and Griff. the show would need to have 12/13 seasons, the fight with the white walkers would only happen in the 10th season, the last two would be the dance of the dragons between aegon vi (griff) allied with dorne, euron and conqueror of the southern kingdoms VS daenarys, the dragon queen who helped the north.
Daenarys and Jon end the same way as the series, but the development until she becomes a tyrant is much greater and palatable.
euron and griff as invaders is widely accepted in the community as an afterthought of grrmartin. the show stuck with the "original" idea of leaving Daenarys as the invader of Westeros, when in the books everything is heading towards her being the "tyrannical liberator" who will fight Griff/Aegon vi in a second dance of the dragons. Euron and Griff are very important and when they saw that they hadn't yet been included in the show's 5 seasons, they thought there would be too many plots. the show would need to use Sansa, Arya and other loved ones to develop bigger and completely new characters.
Without Aegon/Griff you take away the meaning of Dorne, Varys, Illyrio and the whole great revolution that happens in the world of Westeros.
by far this is not all fault of dumb and dumber;
in the books the entire Dorne subplots could be summarized by chapters of Varys receiving letters - instead of consuming pages and pages to say that the Prince of Dorne is making a marriage alliance for his daughter while she rebels by fucking men to try to defy the father. George must have spent months of his life writing a Dorne subplot that adds nothing to the 3 major points of the story.
George delved into Brienne looking for Sansa in lands we know she's not in, he also delved into subplots of Dorne and a fantastic crusade of daenarys against slavery in lands no one cares about. all of this could be resolved with a time skip, changing your writing style focused on millions of unnecessary POVs and finally developing the characters of the big plot: euron, griff, bran, tyrion, snow, dany
the story went from starks vs lannisters/targaryen fighting for the throne/others to an anthology of subplots of brienne, reek and minor characters. George got stuck in secondary plots that don't affect the 3 major pillars of the story and don't make it develop forward, only sideways. If he doesn't even know how to get to the end, imagine dumb and dumber who are really bad writers
@@sr_ryoadm "tyrannical Liberator", bro what?💀, what book have you been reading?
Yep, always said cutting Young Griff/Aegon was the biggest catalyst for making the ending suck. That, and Bran's story not being fleshed out in anyway. Biggest tragedy in entertainment history.
Even during the first few seasons they were giving Bran the bare minimum. I get that they didn't have a budget for a bombastic 3-eyed-crow scene but they could have done more with his dreams or with the Harvest Feast that got skipped completely.
They also took away the whole thing of him sending people visions which he does in a clash of Kings and he most likely does to Theon in a dance with dragons saying his name in The godswood. Those actions make him so much more of an active character than a passive character
They made bran get to bloodraven way too early in the show
Bet that’s why bran wasn’t in season five
@@fazediamond5671 yeah but they still should have kept his scene with Theon in the godswood. Also like... There's infinite possibilities for stories they could have told in that cave. It literally lets them see through time and space. I'd argue there's no excuse to not include bran more than any other character. The options were only limited by their imagination, which they had none
For blowing up the Sept you'd think Cersei would be hated not only by the people of King's Landing, but every lord in Westoros and even her own bannermen. The Lannister army would want to depose her in favor of another Lannister.
Agreed. The Sept of Baelor was the equivalent of the Vatican is in our real world. Surely, the Lannisters would at least face SOME kind of political backlash from this. Oh, and the murdering of the innocents in that Sept, as well as the entire Tyrell family, save the Queen of Thorns. But nope, D&D decided that Cersei gets rewarded for that with a crown and zero judicial consequences. I guess in D&D's version of Westeros the crime of war crimes simply do not exist.
Yep D&D screwed up everything, even when I was a kid, when I watched that scene play out. I thought to myself,
"She's going to get lynched in the streets for this".
But nope! She's absolutely and completely fine. The show even goes as far as to say that the smallfolk like Cersei. And the only thing I can think is WHY!!???!
Why would they like someone who blew up their equivalent of The Vatican.
@@declanjones8888 Precisely
I like you pushing the Aegon agenda. I was sceptical of him at first but the whole Golden Company's yolo meeting leading up to their decision to invade Westeros really won me over.
I think that changing Jeyne Westerling with Talisa was also a mistake, as it changed Robb from being someone who broke his marriage promise to Freys due to his honor to him doing it do to being selfish.
Hmmm well couldn't you argue the act of having sex with Jeyne in the first place was being selfish?
To be honest, I prefer Talisa than Jeyne Westerling, the idea of Tywin being able to predict and plan Rob breaking his vow with the Freys by sleeping and marring Jeyne seems to be very farfetch, Tywin is smart, but I can't see someone have that much foresight to know how things would turn out
@@lordfarquaad2319
It would have been more interesting/ tragic, had something of the Honeypot Theory been real (it would have worked as a way of tying the new character to something resembling the original book plot, specifically conflating Jeyne with her mother- who could arguably have looked similar to the Talisa actress {had she been stated as Myrish or Tyroshi, rather than Volantene- whose nobility have Valyrian ancestry}).
It felt like there were hints to it, but like virtually every potentially great _opportunity_ , it got p*ssed away by Dumbarse & Dipsh^t...
@@lordfarquaad2319 I think that more than predict he used an opportunity given from his vassals after the fact happen, is there something in the book that say it was planned before?
@@lordfarquaad2319 it is not that Tywin predicted that Robb would sleep with Jeyne Westerling but that Jeyne's mother took the initiative to make something happen and contact tywin. Remember Jeyne's mother was descendant of Maggie the Frog and knew a thing about aphrodisiacs. Robb was already under the influence of Milk of the Popp, throw in some good ole nightingale syndrome with the helping hand of an aphrodisiac along with the hormones of teenagers and we get a deflowered Jeyne and a guilt ridden Robb.
Honestly Game of Thrones faltered with the Northern Storyline early on which had unforseen consequences in the later seasons. Throw in no Tysha and no Young Griff and you get the latter half of the series.
Great video, but around 13 minutes 20 seconds a funny thing happened with the audio. It's kind of ironic, because one of the things you were talking about was Danny going crazy in the bells episode, and for a second I thought I was Danny in the episode Bells LOL.
Why does absolutely no other comment I’ve seen mention this? It’s way too late for Quinn to reupload it without losing an insane amount of views (though he probably should’ve watched the video back before uploading)
A big issue with the show is that they just started keeping and relying on old characters that fans seemef to like. Like Bronn snd even Cersei. Being stupid stoppef having consequences.
Ramsay the biggest example. They straight up gave him plot armor in season 5 and 6
@@olofacosta3192 Oh ye that is definetly true. Poor Roose got sidelined for Ramsay. Also gonna put in the Hound here because ye he didnt need to come back...
@@Human-zx4rbthe hound is pretty well confirmed alive in the books. He’s a peaceful gravedigger now in a little village. I think he’ll have some sort of affect on Arya’s arc since he’s given up the assassin life and she’s just started.
@@briannakirkman6565 I am well aware of that thank you. However they didnt bring him back as that in the show, instead he was just more of the same which is why i said what i said.
The characters are more human in the books. Basically everyone in the show is stupidly attractive. Except all the greyjoys.
It became fan fiction, except they weren't even fans
I also think Euron’s character assassination was a big problem. He’s clearly going to be the big bad, but what they did to his character was embarrassing. Same for the entire Dorne plot line which could have been great!
Yeah I'm with you. As bad as fAegon's omission was, I feel like nothing can compare to how terrible show Euron was. He was essentially just a glorified pawn of Cersei, which made the entire ironborn storyline just utterly and completely pointless
@@space_orphan they also got his personality completely wrong, being this character in the show that watchers couldn’t take seriously. They also made him miraculously kill rhaegal for some reason?
@@jadenmoyers837 Oh GOD! please don't remind me of the impossible shot he got on Rhaegal. That thing made no sense and just infuriated me
@@jadenmoyers837 I wouldn't be surprised if Euron actually kills one of the dragons in the book (although with some dark magic most likely) and GRRM told them that plot point but D&D couldn't figure it out so they just decided "fuck it, give him one in a billion ballista shot and let's move on"
@@agentdrozd yeah I haven’t gotten to this point in the books but I heard a theory that euron has a horn that can call one of dany’s dragons to him
Dance with Dragons came out a few months just after the show started airing, they knew damn well everything of importance that they were leaving out, they just didn’t give a sh-t.
Honestly, I think the Tysha omission is still a larger mistake. Beyond neutering Tyrion and Jaime’s characters, it makes Dany’s last minute heel turn even stupider (presumably the Punished Tyrion of the books will have a strong influence on the rise of the “Mad Queen”), indirectly removes the Riverlands arc by taking away any of Jaime’s motivations, which in combination with the lack of Stoneheart led to the ridiculous Frey Massacre by Arya and the travesty of season 5-6 Brienne, and so on…it’s a domino-caused comedy of errors.
Only true fans will remember the time (13:20) Quinn decided to come out as an elditch super being who's patron is a certain gold-haired palfrey
I thought I was having a stroke
I would say the Tysha confession is also extremely important in the way it affects Jaime, not just Tyrion. It's what causes Tyrion to tell Jaime that Cersei's been fucking "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know". Jaime is tortured by this reveal and constantly thinks of it throughout Feast. It irrevocably shatters their relationship to the point where Jaime burns Cersei's letter that begs him for aid.
The show struggles with how to break Jaime and Cersei apart and then has Jaime do random, out of character things to return to her in Season 8 just to give them an anticlimactic death together, in an attempt to parallel them being brought into this world in the same womb or something.
Game of Thrones divebombed in quality since season 3 for omitting Jinglebell Frey
His name is AEGON
They're not gonna have Cat kill a disabled boy on screen 😂
@@Conorp77funny thing about that, that "boy" was older than her.
If you consider that the books haven't even showed the white walkers doing anything significant you see the problem the showrunners had with finishing it.. but the worst was the abandonment of the Azor Ahai plotline
Despite how bad Euron Greyjoy and by extension the Ironborn were treated throughout the show i stand by the opinion that the Exclusions of the Tysha reveal and Varys's hidden Plan of fAegon and the Blackfyre/Golden Company Faction is what truly destroyed the character motivations of nearly every character in Westeros.
Think about how big of a Rug Pull it wouldve been to see Tyrion treking across Essos,with the Audience believing we will be seeing Him meet up with Dany all the while they sprinkle teases about the Golden Company on the March and group of followers surrounding a certain Teenage Boy until finally the reveal of The Golden Company,Jon Connington and Aegon son of Rhaegar decide to march on Westeros.
This single move wouldve been all the motivation to get Dany to muster her forces,solidify her rule in Slavers bay and Sail for Westeros.
I think this has been even made worse by conflating Jon's character with young Griff. For example, all the rifts between Jon and Dany would have been easily solved by marriage, they are on the same team and Jon doesn't care about ruling. On the other hand, young Griff wants to rule and if he already had King's Landing, Dany wouldn't have as much leverage.
Conflating the two, & yet not breathing new life into him, pardon the pun; as far as I'm concerned, no pyre for Jon was also a mistake (hiding his heritage for so long was probably the single dumbest thing done to Jon** ) - & not giving him *_more_* on his rebirth- turning him into a side character, where he should have been front & centre- is stupidity I will never understand: there was an absolutely golden opportunity to pull out more of BookJon's qualities from this point- the strategic mind, the hints of ambition, the anger he can't explain - but nope, let's just keep him as a largely retiring moody bastard (pun intended), the reluctant hero with no interest in power for no reason other than memeability (Jon may never have sought out power or authority, but leadership suited him like a glove- he stepped up without complaints, where necessary & did his level best, even with some against him: imagine how much *more* could be accomplished later, with _willing_ followers...)
Let's just ignore the fact that it's the **perfect** opportunity for natural growth & development; to call back to Maester Aemon, to give us something unexpected that _still_ *makes sense* .
My headcanon was that a resurrected Jon, darkly charismatic & fiercely focused could have taken the mountain clan sub-plot of Stannis, & Sansa could have taken on a Val-esque role (they'd already stupidly conflated her with fArya/ Jeyne Poole, _this_ change at least would have been an upgrade, if they weren't going to give her, her book-plot), instead of that painful struggle to get allies that they went with - yes, those scenes showcases Davos & Lyanna Mormont, but at what cost to the greater story?
Idiot that I am, I had this sliver of hope that when- not only did he execute the leading assassins & declare his time at the Night's Watch ended with a finality that defied _anyone_ to challenge him, & later laughed & smiled with Sansa after his resurrection (more than he had in all the previous seasons combined), that Jon was being developed into something more complex - I was kind of hoping for a link back to Maester Aemon- some kind of informal statement that the boy commander that was Jon Snow did indeed die, that he would have to be someone else, now- & he would discover who, in time... BOOM- you essentially relaunch the character, with almost a blank state; Jon's memories & experiences, but he's not tied to/ weighed down by them...
But nope- no growth, no depth, no challenge - Jon just kind of exists, after s6- every now & then he's focused on something, but he's not actively seeking purpose- he's declared King in the North, but doesn't think about what that means, & he later gives it up with scarcely any thought. There's no thought for what it means to his people, to have donet that- or that maybe it could have been sacrificed strategically....
* Also, that **HIS NAME IS Jaehaerys, UNTIL GRRM TELLS ME OTHERWISE**
Jaehaerys II (it'd be III in the book), the New/ Young Conciliator
I cry for the wasted potential...😢
Right
@@OcarinaSapphr- lmao the delusion 💀😭
@@Aydan2108
In what respects?
i really like the Greyjoys in the book very mysterious faction and cant tell if they are trolling or they really have the big guns
They're Trolls. Trying to troll the other lords of Westeros. But end up only trolling themselves.
cutting JonCon but keeping his Bells PTSD and using it randomly for another character is the dumbest thing ever
feels like GRRM told them "yeah so JonCon has this thing with hearing bells and when he hears them during his invasion he will snap and destroy the city" and D&D were like "oh well shit, we already removed him from the show what now"
One thing I realized is that in season 1 Jon Arryn was the one who figure out Cersei’s children being bastards, even though it was actually Stannis who figured that out first. I think that they changed this in the show, especially later with how Stannis’s story is changed from the books, is that the producers really did not like Stannis (or don’t know how to adapt him to TV), so that they just portrayed him as a power hungry person who just jumped on the first opportunity to be the king.
They said in interviews that Renly would make for a better king than Stannis. They clearly hated, missunderstood, or both, the character
@@joaocalixto1686 renly would have made a better king. He new how to get the lord's on his side and we don't have any reason to believe he wasn't fiscally responsible. Stannis's big problem is nobody likes him and he doesn't care.
He does what he does because he believes in the system and the laws as they are even though they are unjust. He accepts that and fights a losing war because he's supposed to be king.
@@kaemonbonet4931 I would argue an impartial leader who follows unjust laws and applies them as equally as possible is much better than a partial leader who shows favouritism to his friends and benefactors meanwhile is inconsistent in his application of law, following laws he agrees with while breaking laws he disagrees with.
I sincerely see Renly no different to a modern politician who is bankrolled by the elite. Whereas Stannis is the harsh, blunt, uncharismatic yet is stalwart in their beliefs and never has their integrity comprised by wealth or relationships
@@tripledigit4835 I get what you're saying but a big theme in these books is the consent of the governed. I really think stannis is here to be a foil for Jon.
Also, we shouldn't mistake stannis for an egalitarian. He is a noble in a world of kings and peasants. He thinks he would be a better king, but he also does not believe in the right of self determination. He is a clever tactician, but not a freedom fighter.
@@kaemonbonet4931 equal application of unjust laws does not equal egalitarian I agree with you. And you are right, Stannis does not believe in self determination but no one really does at least not for the vast majority of people. There are several characters who believe in self determination for themselves and their vassals but that’s not really self determination if the people are excluded
I couldn't agree more, but there's something I would like to add: House of the Dragon revealed that the infamous "Song of Ice and Fire/Prince that was Promised" is actually a Targaryen prophecy that comes from Aegon the Conqueror himself. We know that this is George R. R. Martin's idea, and it's likely book canon as well. This is extremely important, because Aegon the Conqueror specifically said that the Seven Kingdoms need to be united under the rule of a Targaryen prince in order to survive the upcoming apocalypse. There are plenty of clues in the books that hint at the fact that fAegon/Young Griff isn't a true Targaryen, but a Blackfyre. So, fAegon will claim the Iron Throne in The Winds of Winter, but he isn't the Prince that was Promised, which means that Westeros cannot survive under his rule. In comes Daenerys. She will surely discover the Conqueror's prophecy at some point, and she will instantly know that fAegon isn't a real Targaryen, since she has already been warned about a "false dragon" by both Quaithe and the Undying (who called her "Slayer of Lies"). Dany will understand that getting rid of fAegon and taking the Throne for herself is mandatory to fulfill this prophecy, but the people of Westeros won't know that. They will see Daenerys as a foreign invader who burned cities in the East, leads an army of Dothraki, sellswords, and freed slaves, and now comes to bring fire and blood to a kingdom that is finally in peace after so many years of war. Everyone in Westeros will back fAegon. They will love him and see him as a true Targaryen, but Dany will know better: his claim is nothing but a lie, and she is the Slayer of Lies. At this point, all we need for Dany to coherently burn the Red Keep with fAegon inside, accidentally causing the destruction of King's Landing by reaching the wildfire with her dragonflame, is Jon Snow telling her about the Others and the fact that the Wall has already fallen. Now there you have it: Daenerys' tragedy WELL WRITTEN. All thanks to fAegon.
Faegon is still a Targaryen despite being a blackfyre
@@ihatepower4580 if Dany knows anything about the bf rebellions shes not gonna care that he's technically still a Targaryen...
my one singular worry about this is how long in ados this is gonna take - we barely have enough time in winds for dany to get to westeros and the walls probably gonna have to fall at the end of winds too - so ados gonna be crazy if this needs to happen on top of everything with the others.
I do like the idea though.
You can only theorize that "its likely" at this point, you can't be certain of this
@@mschell8022 If you're talking about Aegon's dream, I said that it is likely book canon because Ryan Condal (showrunner of House of the Dragon) confirmed that this idea came from George himself.
Dany fans experiencing what Martell and Baratheon fans had to put up with for years
I hope stannis will be in it longer so he can fight against the others
Spenglenoodle as a Dany fan I could say that even after all the horrible things they did with her character none of them could be worse of what they did to Stannis, for me one of the biggest shames of the show
Wdym
@@ciii4361 be so fr rn 💀, daenerys was done the dirtiest between all the characters.
HBO would have agreed to fund Game of Thrones for 12 seasons. D&D wanted to rush it to work on Star Wars. That was what ruined the end, imo.
They messed up in season four too, by leaving out the tysha confession and "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and moonboy for all I know" by proxy messing up Jaime and Tyrions character arcs for the next half of the show
Edit: oh you mentioned it partially but I personally think it's the most egregious I think
And also, where do whores go 😂
It's certainly the first big blow of what would be many after.
When it comes to the question of which change from the books ruined the show, what we have is what French philosopher and sociologist Louis Althusser would call a case of overdetermination. D&D made a whole series of glaring omissions and changes _every single one of which_ would have been enough to ruin the show or at least large individual arcs within it _even all by its own._ I agree that the Aegon omission was the most glaring and most consequential one, but it had no impact whatsoever on how the show ruined Dorne, or Euron, in the sixth season, for example. Or Arya's arc in season 6. Or Stannis' story in season 5, which affected a whole bunch of other characters and arcs.
not enough intricate descriptions of food
I thought season 5 was the start of its downfall. Its not true that they ran out of source material. There is so much, basically a feast for crows was omitted, and Young Griff. New characters were not introduced, and that had a butterfly effect. There was a lot of material, they just chose not to adapt it
I’m just now reading feast/dance.
I agree with you, I found myself really liking Jon Connington’s story a lot.
It's pretty good. I also like davos POV xd. He's is just a Nice man doing what he believe is just
My one small quibble with the video is that, if the books play out in at least semi-plausible way - Aegon VI is not letting Cersei, assuming she survives the fall of King's Landing, out without major consequences. There are just going to be too many people by this point who want her dead - the Faith (for killing the High Sparrow and the execution of Ned Stark), the common people (for that plus just about everything to do with her handling of the city), and the Tyrells (for murdering Margery). Not to mention Aegon could well be itching to punish the Lannisters and Cersei is by far the easiest target. Cersei losing her head or burning would be a huge propaganda triumph for Aegon. And narratively that isn't a problem because I think it was one of the central problems of late Game of Thrones that they kept Cersei's arc going for far, far too long. Which meant the show never turned and indeed couldn't turn to the interesting dynamic that Aegon's existence presents for Jon and Dany - what do two figures with messianic pretensions (arguably delusions) who believe that they are the only people who can right a string of great wrongs and avert the apocalypse do when that wrong has been righted and averting the apocalypse no longer is no longer completely connected to putting themselves on the throne?
The idea of a common folk rebellion against the crown plus all other warring factions vying for power could’ve been a cool idea. Maybe bastards of nobles trying to weasel there way into power this way to be either trusted or turned on.
Edit: also if aegon is a false targaryen but marries danerys the Targaryen name and blood still technically get passed down so it can be a win win if looked at that way.
Great work, Quinn! No worries about the audio issue.
I think you’re right that Aegon being omitted is probably the most impactful. However, I’d also like to suggest that the way Euron was handled should be a close second. Having “Book Euron” in the show would completely change the way we view Cersei’s final arc and likely the way she approaches Dany’s arrival entirely.
14:06 the bells part being doubled messed me up so much
Those are all good points, but ultimately I do not think it was an omission that caused the problem. Watching couple of videos of GRRUM about writing for Hollywood I am under the impressions they pushed too much on "surprise the viewers" tactics. He said couple of times how they constantly repeated, in his days there: "More action, more action". I am imagining similarly "More surprises, more surprises", not understanding that people liked for example the red wedding, not only because it surprised them, but because also it made sense. I am sure even if D&D did not introduce any more characters, they could have made a more sensible finish with what they have, given the chance. I think "what will the viewers like" policy puts too much pressure and makes writers be focused on the wrong thing.
Didn’t they say that completely subverting viewers expectations was the best thing to do? Like having Arya kill night king instead of Jon? Just because something is unexpected does not mean it’s good
@@jadenmoyers837 The show was always known for subverting expectations with things like Ned Stark's death, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, etc. Once the writers no longer had GRRM's work to go on, the quality of the writing took a nosedive. What we got in later seasons was bad writers attempting to capture the subverting expectations style.
Another terrible omission was Arianne Martel and the Dornish masterplan. Instead, we got a parody that ruined (among other things) Jamie's arc too.
In the end, I can understand why they removed Tysha because Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion are very different characters. I almost feel like D&D made Tyrion so likable that people wanted him to get the throne, so they paired him up with Dany (non-romantically), had him fall for her and constantly make bad decisions for the rest of the show, so that we will be thankful that he gets to be Hand in the Ending instead of being executed.
What ruined it? It had been bad for a while but when arya killed: little finger, the freys, the white walkers and for very little didn’t kill cersei as well I noticed they had ruined it forever
Looking back to season 1, Dany's arc was doomed the moment they changed the context of her wedding night with Drogo. It's still messed up because of the age difference, but at least the books didn't have repeated sexual assault as a preamble to a loving relationship. Like, it's sad to think that the signs were always there for so much of the show overall.
YES, I"m so glad someone else sees this. Drogo asking for consent is literally the first time in her life Dany has any agency at all...and she runs with it! She enjoys feeling empowered and starts dreaming of being queen. I think if she had just traded one abuser for another she would have stayed quiet and zombie-ish like she was in the beginning of the show, not suddenly blossomed into strength and power. (What kind of misanthrope thinks people get stronger through abuse/rape? D&D are horrible.)
It is also her weakness. She wants to free slaves because she remembers how horrible it felt, but she's constantly surprised when they don't feel grateful and rise from it the way she did. Like trusting the blood witch and being shocked when some of the Meereenese slaves sell themselves back into slavery...I think it's a blind spot that's going to keep biting her in the ass.
The same thing happened in the books 💀
@cam1772fsu huh?💀, she's a literal child, her "consent" is not a valid one, and the witch was crazy, dany saved her from further harm and the witch killed her child in return, and the people who want sell themselves were a very very few of GENTLY born
@Aydan2108 like, yeah, but it wasn't the same as the way it happened in the show. At the very least, the wedding night was different and there's still a debate about whether Drogo did anything afterwards or if it was just Dany having riding sores (if I remember correctly. Might have been confirmed otherwise).
@GallowglassVT he literally graped her every night until she wanted to kill herself?
POV You are Jon Connington: 13:20 😂
Yeah I can’t believe they left Faegon Blackfyre out of the show, you also should’ve mentioned the grand northern conspiracy and weyman manderlee /stannis storyline that was cut from the show
Lol that overlapped audio about the bells
They tried to replace Aegon's story with Jon in season 8 as being the favorite among the people after the fight with White Walkers and Daenerys being jealous about it. Though that only works with The North's people and the Southerns wouldn't care about a Nothern King no matter how good unless Jon's true identity had been revealed but that didn't go anywhere either as most of the people in Westeros never knew the truth about Jon even by the end of the show.
So good 👏
Though you’ve reminded me how badly I wish these books weren’t abandoned by a creator that now effectively resents his book fans.
One massive change that happened is something not a lot of people take into account:
Since Martin stopped working together with D&D, the showrunners stopped looking at the "big picture" of the conflict of ASOIAF, which is not driven by individual desire, but by social norms and values, laws, feudal logic, simple environmental struggle (the thought that winter simply ended when the night king was killed is not only absurd, it actively contradicts everything we know about winter; that it is a devestating season, filled with death and misery, regardless of how long it is. As the other seasons so far have been longer than usual, the coming winter will be catastrophic, white walkers or no.) and the capacity to bring allies to your cause.
Think about it. Other than the sons of the harpy and the faith militant (both of which were already a faction in the books, which the writers adapted.), what major, non-individual faction is affecting the plot in any major way?
The showrunners thought, wrongly, that the central conflict of game of thrones is between queens, kings and dragon riders. This is false. None of the events of the first 4 seasons are even thinkable, if we remove the very core of the story, social turmoil, change, and resistance to seemingly destructive outside social elements. The call for independence in the north, has nothing to do with Catelyn's or Robb's own desires. The movement of the wildlings, has nothing to do with mance rayder's personal wishes. The death of Jon Snow has EVERYTHING to do with how he forced his enemies to serve under him, increasingly provoking them with adding wildlings and giants to his cause. It doesn't matter how justified he is in doing this, what matters is the cause and effect of this uprooting of centuries long social norms, the clashing of cultures and the violence that is inevitable when things come to a boil.
Dany solves her issues in meereen with yet another show of force and nothing more. She wins over the khalasar, through an act of individualism, instantly winning them over by.....burning their most sacred temple???
She then hands over meereen to fucking Daario. DAARIO. A mercenary commander with a big mouth and half a brain. Nothing comes of this decision. In fact, I'm pretty sure D&D "kinda forgot" Daario even existed anymore. No more sons of the harpy, no populist uprisings, no massive unrest, desertion or any other type of social fallout. Nothing. Dany won, because I guess she's just that much of a girlboss. This completely IGNORES 3/4 of the plot of meereen in the first place and it's central theme: how a foreign coup d'etat can't afford to ignore local customs, laws and culture without inciting conflict and endangering your cause, no matter how justified the cause might be.
Cersei's blowing up of the sept is, as you noted, a schoolbook example of this. An act of terror against an increasingly radicalizing, continent-spanning religious order of zealots, results in.....her coronation and IMMEDIATE pacification of said radicalized group. Jesus fucking christ what a complete shitshow.
D&D weren't interesting in showing anything remotely interesting about the mechanics of this FEUDAL world, instead wanting to focus more and more on just how awesome cersei and dany and Sansa and Arya are.
George understands that his characters are not independent from one another. He understands that their decisions have rippling effects that connect all of them, because the mechanics of this world allow for that connection to happen in the first place. By removing the central conflict of the story, THE FEUDAL SYSTEM BEING FOUNDED ON A PERPETUAL CYCLE OF WAR FOR THE VANITY AND PROFIT OF MILITARY DICTATORS AT THE TOP, one essentially removed the cause and effect driven narrative that was so absolutely essential to ASOIAF and the first 4 seasons of game of thrones.
D&D actually did it. They managed to convince themselves that Game of Thrones was nothing more but the "red wedding show" and the "subversion of expectation" story. It's a show about a girlboss getting dragons and slaying, literally. She was gonna break the wheel by...FIRMLY REPAIRING IT.
Excellent analysis!
The biggest downfall of the show is a lack of developed secondary characters. In the books, there’s a character anyone can enjoy, and most of the side characters feel like people - we don’t get that in the show.
I think an omission as early as season 1 led to the show’s downfall- Jeyne Pool, Sansa’s childhood friend who marries Ramsay as the fake “Arya Stark”.
In the show, Jeyne doesn’t exist, and they have Sansa take her place. This messes up not only her arc and character by interrupting her learning politics from Baelish, but also messes with the character and trajectory of Baelish, Brienne, and even Jaime.
Baelish appears either completely evil or a fool, neither of which fits with his character. Yes, he is shady and malevolent, but he isn’t evil for the sake of it. He has a goal, and that goal involves Sansa.
Jaime and Brienne have their last moment together when Jaime gives Brienne oathkeeper and tells her the truth about the fake Arya, bidding her to seek out the true Stark girls. This is a sign of trust between them- this secret getting out could be disastrous, but Jaime knows Brienne will keep it. No such exchange can take place in the show, and Brienne is rejected by Sansa immediately and then stalks her for a season. It’s very odd.
You just blew my mind. Connington mentions that if he had razed the Stony Sept instead of searching house to house for Robert during the Battle of the Bells, he could've ended the rebellion and saved the targaryens. He might choose the other way when daenarys attacks kings landing and threatens aegons rule, especially under the influence of greyscale. Exactly the type of terrible decision a likeable character would make in asoiaf.
For me it was the exclusion of the Valonqar prophecy.
Up until that point I was all in on the creative licenses that the show runners had taken, but somehow I just knew that when they left that part out, they were not going to end things the way GRRM wanted and that Dan and Dave were going to do their own thing with regards to Cersei’s end and it wouldn’t be a satisfying one.
Yeah that one really sucked. It made the show just seem like a fanfiction version and not the real ending.
@@taragnor well said
The ending isn't what did the show in. It was how they got there
The fact that GRRM himself hasn't managed to bring his unwieldly horse into the barn tells me that the story is likely beyond saving. There are just too many plotlines, too many characters and too many unexplained powers. The Sparrows are a prime example of this. They are added too late in the narrative to make good sense, kind of like when a bad murder mystery introduces a new character in the last couple chapters who ends up being the culprit. Aegon and the Dornish plot are in the same boat, as is Lady Stoneheart. There are just too much other things going on to shoehorn in these new characters and plotlines.
but all the characters you mentioned are not "last minute" additions. There's still 2/3 more books to go. so plenty of story to flesh them out. But most of these characters are red herrings to the big bad in the North.
@@epochal1224 But the problem is that they're not fleshed out now, even after five very large books. Instead we have chapter after chapter of pointless endeavors like Brienne's useless quest, the Adventures of Quentyn Martel and the detailed history of Crackclaw Point. All this excess dressing has left us with a narrative pace that has slowed to a crawl. If Young Griff is really so important, let's focus on him more on him and less on things like the exciting journeys of Mya Stone as she travels from the Eyrie to the Vale.
While I agree the omission of Aegon was bad for the show, I really think it only impacted Denaris in seasons 5 & 6 and didn't hit Cercei until season 7. But the whole show suffered from dropping a multitude of plots. Stoneheart wasn't a factor because they changed Jamie's plot so completely. While the Tysha reveal didn;t really impact Tyrion that heavily because they just gave him another motivation to kill Tywin (though it was unsatisfactory).
Season 5's real problem is that it and season 4 dropped countless plot points. It missed introducing the valunqar prophecy, an actual Doran Martell, Dark Star, Stoneheart, the actual events surrounding Jon's election, Elaine Stone, Nester Royce, Lady Dustin, Wyman Manderly, Stong Belwas, Jayne Pool, the tattered prince, the Greyjoy's, killing Mance Rayder and maester Aemon, etc. You could go on almost forever with what is dropped during seasons 5,6 and 7 which made the show worse but the truth is that they made terrible mistakes as far back as season 2. To name just a few: They omitted Mormont's raven. They omitted all of the northern nobles. They introduced Taliza and omitted Jane Westerling and then killed Tiliza off in season 3. They omitted Mercy and paired Aria with Tywin rather than Roose Bolton. They omitted Rob naming Jon as his heir.
So sure they could have included Aegon and his crew and made the show somewhat better in late season 5 and after but there were a great many other things which could have made it better. They could have introduced the northern conspirators and the Vale politics and done the same. They could have expanded the cast in Mereen in seasons 3 and 4 to make that story better (the Martell and Greyjoy casts come to mind here). They could have made Dorne actually interesting rather than just a side plot for Jamie. They could have sent Jamie to the river lands and introduced Stoneheart. They could have made Euron Greyjoy an actual frightening creature rather than a rock and roll Jack Sparrow.
But there were reasons they couldn't add Aegon. First, that would have just added another storyline to follow in seasons 6 and 7 which had none of the original characters (because Tyrion exits that orbit rather quickly). They removed Varys from Kings Landing. This also would have left the TV show's Mereen storyline with no POV characters from the end of season 5 to the end of season 6 because they killed Barristan in season 5.
Season 5 was a no win situation due to the mistakes made earlier and everything afterward was a shit show because of what was done in season 5. So while season 2,3 and 4 were passable, season 5 suffered from earlier omissions and was only able to deal with the aftermath of the previous four seasons. Its biggest problem was nothing new happened, because no new interesting characters were introduced, and no known characters were elevated in importance to replace those that died in seasons 3 and 4. Season 5 also really suffered from Winds of Winter not coming out because why would you introduce FAegon, Stoneheart or even Euron and Victarion Greyjoy when you have absolutely no idea how their story's will play out? So while you can have blamed GRRM for everything after season 5/6 sucking you get to instead hang everything after 4 on D & D (this is not to say that there wasn't some really good stuff in seasons 5-6).
The Show screwed up Catelyn from the very beginning. They tried to humanize her more. She manipulated Eddard to go to King's Landing and started the war with the Lannisters through her arrogantly stupid actions. Like Cersie, she tried to play the game of thrones; and like Cersie, so many other people died for it before she finally died. So the show leaving out Lady Stoneheart (which arguably she embodies from the beginning) isn't that bad.
Now leaving out the Faegon and Tisha confession story lines, that harmed the ahow big time.
I agree completely on the change / omission of Aegon, attempting to merge the story line of the son of Rhaegar with that of Ned Stark's son for the sake of garnering the support of fans by using a fan theory just went so horribly wrong. On the cloth or mummers dragon, that was Dany herself while she was in slavers bay, as there she was pretending or just practicing. Westeros is where she truly belongs. I don't see Aegon marrying another like Arianne Martell or Margaey Tyrell as he was already set on Daenerys, and if he wants a dragon he should keep himself open. And I find it extremely unlikely that Targaryen restoration would cause Dany to want to fight her nephew.
By "fan theory" you mean R+L=J? You know that D&D guessing that was what gave them the job to direct the show, right?
@@joaocalixto1686 Before they made that claim the two D's said that Jon was "The descendant of Ned Stark" in season 5 interviews. You know, the first season were the quality of the show dropped off dramatically and the fans began to turn on them. What better way for two hacks who can't write for themselves to garner the support of the fans that had turned on them than to lift a popular fan theory off the internet? Descendant is a very specific term, your nephew isn't your descendant and an adopted son would not be called your descendant.
You do know that GRRM's own wife has said that RLJ is too simple / tropey for him, right ? After season 4 of the OG show D&D cut off communications with GRRM. I think his wife would be much better informed than those two hacks.
@@Jacaerys4life descendant is just a word they chose to say that they are related without claiming any parentage. And like, again, these guys got the job by rightfully guessing Jon's true parentage
Just face it, anything other than R+L=J is a major cope
@@joaocalixto1686 Ignoring the definition of descendant and pretending they meant something else is the true cope here. Using that word literally claims parentage. If they said "raised as a son" that would be the vague terms you're looking for. But no they used a word that described Jon as being the natural son of Ned Stark, which he is. Cope about it. N + A = J and R + L = A / V
@@Jacaerys4lifedidn't u see the video r+l=j Martin himself agrees with that and it's canon u can cope yourself and cry about it because the books are never gonna get finished the show version is the only thing that remains also Martin himself has said if some fans found about what's gonna happen in the next book he isn't gonna change anything to subvert exceptions like d and d
You forgot the most important character of them all, Ser Duck.
(f)Aegon not being in the show is definitely the biggest & most apparent change with the Dornish Masterplan being in close second.
When first watching the show, the "House of the Undying"-part being trimmed down so heavily really disturbed me somehow - it just felt s unnecessary.
What killed "Game of Thrones" was the fact they started making a show out of series that hasn't been finished yet.
Hope the Jon Snow show will be good. I wish it will pick up some of the book stuff that were overlooked by the show. If they do it well then many fans will consider it the real ending of GoT. Just my opinion
I'm like, 90% sure that they'll adapt Val in this Jon Snow show
I'm 99% sure it will be bad af. With a very lazy catch like "the night king has returned". They just shouldn't go through with this. I still hope that it will be cancelled at some point
Prediction 1: it's not gonna happen
Prediction 2: if it happens, you're gonna wish it hadn't
Something weird happens with the audio in the last couple minutes, two people talking at once sorta thing
In 2019 I published an article observing that the big problem with late-period GoT was placing Jon Snow at the Battle of Hardhome in episode 5.8. The vivid characterisations and narrative thrust of Martin's work derives from irony; we watch these people tearing each other to pieces in the knowledge that, unbeknownst to them, a terrible icy reckoning is coming. That situation abides in the books, but in GoT Jon goes to Hardhome, slays a White Walker and locks eyes on the Night King. This is basically the climax of the story; the man who knows nothing in fact knows everything.
And as he spreads the word, all narrative and moral complexity evaporates; these people know what's coming for them, those who team up against it are good guys, and naysayers are bad guys. So seasons 6-8 boil down to the question of whether there will be enough good guys - an insufficient hook, it transpires, for 25 hours of television spread over four years. So to my mind late-period GoT wasn't rushed, it was interminably drawn out (which of course focuses our attention on the accumulation of other faults).
There’s a lot that could be pointed at as the downfall of the show. Hubris, the omission of Aegon, not having Jaime and Tyrion have the Tysha discussion, Bran’s story not getting fleshed out remotely, etc.
I’ve seen a lot of people blame George Martin for not having the series done, which is fair, but even if he had finished it I don’t think it would’ve changed a whole lot with the show.
D&D had changed so much of the story that by the time the show reached ADWD it was barely even recognizable as an adaptation of that book. They cut so many storylines without realizing how crucial they were to character development and the story as whole.
I truly believe D&D thought they could finish this story better than George could, which to me is evident judging by what cast members have stated about the pair and the fact that George hadn’t worked on episode since season 4.
Without patch face this show failed. It was doomed from season 2 without patch face being shown on the opening scene where Stannis is licking his wounds on dragon stone. I quit when I didn’t see patch face
Some scenes and characters I wish had been included seasons 1-4.
1)Joffrey and Robb arguing in winterfell yard about sword training.
2)Jaime’s and Cersei’s conversation before ‘the things I do for love’
3)Robert’s and Ned conversation in Ned II
4)Tyrion’s conversation win Jon is more detailed in Tyrion II
5)In Sansa I and Ned III we see the book version of Renly(Tall, Handsome and being a joker). First character to be changed for no reason. We are missing here his japes from this 2 chapters.
6)Bran I. We see nothing about his dream.
7)3/4 of Catelyn III are missing(She comes by a ship and plans what to do with Rodrik)
8) Jon conversation with Donal Noye and Tyrion in Jon III.
9) Ned tells about his plans to Cat(Moat Cailin being garrisoned and Cat to keep a close eye to Theon in case of war)
10) Tyrion dines with the high officers from the nights watch(Tyrion III)
11) a more detailed conversation again with Catelyn and ser Rodrik from Catelyn V
12) Some action from the hands Tourney, Sansa and Jeyne Pool being impressed and from the dinner with king Robert to the hound telling her his story about his face.
13) More detailed conversations with Robert and Varys from Ned VI.
14) Cat meets with Brynden and Mya stone before his party reach Eyrie.
15) Viserys being carried with a cart to Vaes dothrak, and the roasting from ser Jorah.
16) Ned’s dream about tower of joy
17) 1/2 of Catelyn VII is out of the series(conversation with Rodrik, Blackfish and Lysa Tully.
18)I don’t remember If Jon V adapted to the screen, if not it’s 50/50 if someone likes it.
19) Varys missing from the Ned throne scene.
20)whole Sansa III chapter is missing. I like it shows his desires about staying in KL.
21) Cersei and Ned meeting was in the godswood here I didn’t like the space.
22) Ned discuss with Varys and Ser Barristan about lancel and the wine the king drunk when he was hunting.
23) A more detailed adaption from Sansa IV
24)Poor scene where Catelyn finds Robb’ host at moat cailin. Wee sure need all the conversation about their future war plans along with the introduction of Roose Bolton.
25) All the lines from Sansa V. My favourites chapter from her from AGOT.
26) Varys and Ned conversation in the black cells is way better than the two separate dialogues from the show
27)Catelyn gets some news from her uncle about their enemies moves(Cat IX)
28)The battle of the green fork. Ok maybe we are asking a lot😂.
29) Bran VII is nice. We got nothing from that in the show.
30)Tywin’s war council plans for the future.
31) Catelyn sees her father and the conversation between Stark and Tully bannermens which leads to King in the Nort.
I said seasons 1-4 and only mentioned missing parts from the first book😂
Cats last chapter in AGOT is so fantastic
@@hogndog2339 Catelyn is a top 2 pov character in AGOT.
If you are a reader, you will always be disappointed in what does, and does not, wind up on screen. I have lost count of how many times that has happened to me throughout my life.
@@tessdurberville711 GOT left out so many scenes and preferred to give us some other scenes and characters. They didn’t even follow the first 3 books completely. See how many thing I wrote here.
I completely agree. Dropping fAegon was one of the things that set up a dynamic that mostly breaks the characters. I think it was an intentional error done to stream line the plot by making a single narrative that in the book will play out as two parallels.
That said, i think you're underestimating the impact of LSH. In fact, I think removing LSH was actually an earlier change done to remove the second narrative.
Why? It's commonly believed that Robb named an heir in his will. My contention is that he didn't name an heir. He named an heir(king)maker. He had no idea when she would fall or if his wife was pregnant when he left her at Riverrun. His goal was to prevent choas and ensure there was no fight. So what he did was name Catelyn to name his heir.
This is important because I think most readers focus too hard on her revenge actions and not on the fact he's also going after people who might know about Arya even though it must be common knowledge that fArya has been married. She appears to be subtly looks for a daughter. One I believe she intends to crown.
LSH was removed to get rid of this parallel plot over Winterfell and house Stark. fAegon was removed to get rid of the contest between the Targaryens. By removing both they set up the elements for a single contest between Jon and Dany.
Have you had a chance to look at my parallel theory?
I am glad you bring up the crowing of Cersei after the destruction of the Great Sept. This makes no sense at all. When the Papal States were defeated in the unification of Italy, destruction of the Vatican would have provoked a war.
I feel like there's been an explosion in asoiaf youtube content in the last week, has anyone else noticed that
Just your algorithm fam
Nymeria's wolf pack. I figured Arya would worg into her and use the wolf pack at a dire moment in the final conflict. Jon's worging, too.
I've been slowly reading the books since about 2015 and at long last, I'm about halfway through A Dance with Dragons. I legitimately have no idea why they would omit Young Griff/Aegon and his group from the show. His presence adds so much to the story and gives characters a sense of direction that they do not have in the latter part of the show (looking at you Varys and Tyrion). I still have about 600 pages to read and I'm thoroughly enjoying the story, but it comes with a bitter aftertaste knowing that GRRM doesn't seem to prioritize finishing TWoW anytime soon...
13:23 onwards errrr somethings gone very wrong my guy! great video besides that!
George doesn’t find a way out of his garden
What broke GoT is that they completely changed the structure of their show, once they ran out of source material.
They could have left out more or less whatever content they wanted, and it would still have been a good ending to the show, if they hadn't forsaken realistic character motivations and plotlines for "this happens because it's baddas and or subverts your expectations!" and stuck to the themes of the book.
I’m re-reading the series now. I completely forgot about Jon Connington haha Also, I didn’t hate the series. The quality dropped drastically from seasons 7-8, but I legitimately enjoyed everything before that (except Dorne… which to be fair, I didn’t care for in the books either, but my option my change during this re-read - who knows). Enjoying your channel so far!
I was going to comment something in the template of 'the memes weren't memeing', but it just turned out as
'the writers weren't writing' which was the literal problem for seasons 7 & 8, some would even add season 6.
No Grand Northern Conspiracy, No Mannis, No Magic, No Young Griff, No Rhoynar water magic, No Game of 9 Penny Kings, No DragonHorn, No Victorian, no common Sense.
You hate to see such raw potential completely neglected, taken behind the barn, shot and shitted on.
Like ugh.
No Lady Stoneheart
The exclusion of Aegon, aborting much of Stannis’ later novel story, and Lady Stoneheart was very detrimental.
George has said the greatest error of the show was removing Stoneheart
13:20 hahaha made me question my sanity for a second
The worse omission is Jayne Poole. This meant that Sansa had to go to Winterfell early, marry Ramsey, and then needed a reward for all her suffering so it passed as character development. But George is somewhat predictable in that your dreams and desires are not always what makes you happy or what you need. One reason I see Arya growing up, maturing, and being happily pregnant many times to the lord of the "castle", but maybe one she chooses (Hot pie) and not one her father does. Sansa will never be the leader that Jon can be, but she can be a shrewd diplomat and can show an interest in the more mundane administration that Jon lacks the patience or interest for.
amazing video. Cutting Young Griff, Arianne, Lady stoneheart, specially Griff who has huge impact in Dany's future arc was a imense mistake by Dumb and Dumb. If they had do right even without the finals books, the last seasons could have been way better
I though not address “the Prince that was promised “ fully messed up the tv show
I think Aegon's existence brings even Dany's legitimacy and identity into question. Why should Varys and Illyrio not have brainwashed 2 babies instead of 1 baby into thinking they're the totally realsesTarg children?
I don’t think the show needed Faegon. I also don’t think the books needed him until Martin decided to do something different with Jon Snow and so gave faegon part of Jon’s planned arch. Jon and Aegon are so similar it’s unreal almost too similar. I think originally Jon was suppose to take up the mantel King in the north and go south trying to recruit men for the coming white walker war only for his true heritage to surface and he is welcomed as the savior of Westeros and crowned king. At the same time Danny would finally land in Westeros where Jon would make a alliance with her (maybe marriage) saying she could be the real king and he would step aside as long as she took her army and dragons north with him to help save the world. Because of the prophecies Danny believes Jon is a pretender trying to trick her and she stabs him in the back red wedding style. Weakening the army of men even more before the true battle and maybe even resurrecting Jon as the new nights king and leader of the White walkers. But then Martin decided a new fate for Jon but still needed that conflict down south hence faegons creation. Which is a real shame as a Jon fanboy I would’ve loved to see Jon actually get a moment of badassness before dying which doesn’t seem to be coming now lol. Loved the video though!
How is no one talking about the audio overlapping at like 13:00 ??
I always understood the need for trimming plotlines and certain details, but the simplest issue that changed the dynamics between the books and the show was the size of the major families. The show seems to act as though there's a handful of each house's relatives alive. I assumed this was meant to add weight, tension, or drama to each circumstance 🤷♂ But it just added confusion and conflicting motivations. Most of the families in A Song of Ice and Fire are massive. There was never any kind of notion that there were no back-up Lannisters or Tyrells. Some of the schemes and plots that did make it into the show never really made much sense with the trimmed down version of the family trees.
Totally agree that Aegon was the most inpactful omission.
More thematically, it's definitely noticeable that as the seasons moved further from GRRM's books they became more simplistic in morality as well as politically simplified. Throughout the seasons, every camp had some people we cheered for & some we despised; i.e. even though the Starks are generally meant to be seen as righteous, they had men like the Boltons onside. By the Very-Short Night in S8, basically every char the audience liked was aligned together against cartoonish villains.
THE VOICES! THE VOICES!
I will also add that making the white walkers THE major threat. The conflict between Dany and the holder of the iron throne, whoever that may be, should be made nigh insignificant under the looming threat from the north. It most certainly shouldn't be a minor obstacle that Dany must overcome before moving on to the real problem facing the kingdom, who's ass is made uncomfortable on a metal chair.
I see the conflict, and I appreciate the art in displaying it with such.. clarity.
It was all the small, and so often unnecessary changes, and the worst part was that they tried so hard for events of the book to happen in the show when they were already two complete different stories.
There’s an audio issue at 13:30!!!!! >:(
V unsettling!
Absolutely the omission that ruined the show was “Aegon”. It ruined Varys’ true end game, it ruined the possibility that Jon’s real name is Aemon and it ruined Dorne, which the show also left out Arianne Martel, and she’s a fun character.
Hey dude, youve mucked up your audio from 13:20, might want to reupload to fix that. Great ideas though!
Yeah, the part about no consequences for Sersei destroying the sept is a good point. However I question if anyone outside of her and her minions actually knows she was responsible. Of course if anyone of influence of power outside of the crown is investigating it, it may only be some time before they discover her connection. Unless she had anyone involved killed.
Also, yes removing the Lady Stoneheart angle - I really wanted to see vengeful zombie-Cat out there doing her thing. And finally I really love the Aegon angle as well and now I'm not even sure what the heck was going on in book 5 related to his choice to head to Westeros before meeting Dany. I'll definitely have to go back and re-read it.
For my money I definitely want to see a good and worthy person sitting the iron throne. I would love it if Dany and Aegon could come to some kind of terms but with the way things go in these books that would be way too tidy and nice. And with the way her vision played out you can tell she comes all that way only to just barely fall short of her goal. Probably due to either the white walker threat or even Jon Snow himself.
All in all the producers of the show made terrible, terrible mistakes in whatever it was they were trying to do. Heck if possible I would've loved it if they just kept in most if not all of the stuff you touched upon all the way through book 5 and then just put the show on hiatus until the books were actually finished. I would've waited X number of years for a more satisfying conclusion to the show. If people can wait 13 years for a sequel to Avatar I think I wait maybe half as long maybe longer for a better conclusion to GOT.