Endless Island Adventure - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 11!
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- The good guy and bad guy factions all converge, leading to a lengthy brawl featuring tons of power-ups that go nowhere. Well, Cell is said to have Freeza's cells after all, so it makes sense his fights would be just as unsatisfying. Believe it or not, it takes Vegeta and Kuririn being stupid and/or selfish to make this interesting again. I never thought I'd be longing for that!
"...can now be breached by Amazon's free two day shipping." Alright, ya got me, I chortled.
Imagine if Kuririn's foot accidentally pushed the button on the controller. That would've been a hilarious turn of events. That would've made this arc a lot more interesting 😂
Hell, remember that filler episode in the Red Ribbon Arc where Goku destroying a remote control deactivated the bomb it controlled? By that logic, simply the act of destroying the remote should have shut down #18.
Didn’t TeamFourStar make that joke at the end of one of the abridged episodes?
M3rcalicious.Hyphy indeed
I've always imagined this lol
I always thought of that scenario
Also this is the part of the series where Toriyama’s muscle fetish really becomes apparent. Look no further than Tien’s shoulders. And with SSJ Grade 3 Trunks on the horizon, it ain’t going away any time soon
*oogles at screen*
They get so damn ridiculous.
At least muscles in the series used to be a THING.
"Yamcha went to the bathroom or something"
"Hey Master Roshi.. You're out of toilet paper..! Oh no.. oh geez! oh god!!!"
MaxArceus poor dolt.
Yamcha got tired of being beaten up or killed. In order to illustrate the seriousness of a threat. So he leaves it to the others. Yamcha has learned. Perhaps he isn't a poor dolt now.
@MaxArceus
Y'know if you didn't make that reference after hearing that statement, I would have...
I don't get it.
9:59 You could say there's more...Tensionhan.
12:38 Yeah, that's one thing I REALLY like about this section of the arc: Toriyama uses Krillin's and Vegeta's weaknesses to help the villain, and it's completely understandable why they make the mistakes they do. Krillin's even had the right idea morally, because there was no real need to disable 18-it was only to stop Cell from creating problems.
As for Vegeta's terrible and seemingly out-of-character decision (when keeping his initiative in the Namek Arc in mind), I actually quite like the turn he took in this arc. In a weird, paradoxical way, it makes sense like this. Vegeta might've heralded himself as the strongest being in the world since his introduction, but he always knew he was outclassed and HAD to resort to different tactics to survive. Stealth, strategically whittling down the opposition, dirty moves (dropping sand in Zarbon's eyes), teamwork-all feel like they can be justified by his situation. The only time in the Namek Arc he truly *felt* like the strongest in the world was when Dende healed him, and that delusion was destroyed quickly by Frieza. Here, not only has he become the legendary Super Saiyan, but he's SURPASSED it and is probably the first Saiyan in history to reach this new plateau. Vegeta, with all his Saiyan cultural baggage, is on cloud nine at this point. He's on a high the likes of which he's never experienced before, and I can't help but appreciate how well that plays into his decision to spare Cell. God knows I'd probably let that sense of accomplishment and superiority get to my head too. Despite being a chaotic mess, Vegeta feels real in all his flaws, and I'll always respect how Toriyama made him (of all elements of his story) work every time.
As a side note, this brings up one thing I REALLY like about the original Broly movie. Vegeta, making himself prone to superstition (like Frieza) and carrying the cultural baggage he does, completely shatters when he realizes Broly's the Legendary Super Saiyan. He looks absolutely pathetic and I think it works perfectly. While it's partially because he can obviously detect the monumental gap between him and Broly, his irrational dependence on the "legend" itself is singled out to show how, despite being as strong as he is, the fact that he lets those things get to him so deeply shows how weak he is mentally, which is something that comes full-circle in the Buu Arc. I love Vegeta's flaws.
Vegeta letting Cell go is basically like a gamer paying $60 dollars for a Souls game.
and in fairness, i don't know if krillin even knew cell was trying to absorb the androids
@@thejuiceking2219Piccolo gave them the rundown after he encountered Imperfect Cell and they arrived.
When you put Vegeta's head on Super Vegeta I almost spit out my drink. Another great episode. Asked some pretty interesting questions I have never seen anyone else ask about this part of the arc. With how you said, "is it right to kill 18 just to stop Cell" and I agree, killing someone who really has not done anything wrong would be a very hard thing to do. Great to see someone else other then me to not like the look of second form Cell btw.
2nd form Cell is so poorly designed. It is the one instance I agree with Toriyama's editor. I just wish it didn't feel so wasted. A lot of late Freeza to the end of the series have this problem.
The Cell Saga tennis-match session isn't nearly as tedious as the Frieza tennis-match session though because Cell can't transform at will. He always needs the artificial humans, so there's tension in preventing him from reaching his goal. Frieza was always "holding back" and the "this isn't even my true form" memes made the whole thing a giant waste of time. I mean, once Frieza started saying he was holding back in PERCENTAGES "Now I'll use *50%* of my power!", that's when it got REALLY bad.
The Endless Island Adventure never reached those levels of stupidity.
^ it also didn't drag itself out nearly as long and moved the plot along instead of just being a meandering climax
I agree, the Cell part had interesting character moments with androids or Tenshinhan or vegeta
Disagree completely. The fight against Frieza literally did happen at the climax of the story. At this point, we're still not in the climax of the Cell saga, so the fact that all of these power-ups are going to be useless is even more apparent. Some of these battles are pretty fun by themselves, but you just know 16 isn't going to defeat Cell and Piccolo isn't going to accomplish anything.
@@olserknam But at least the Cell Saga gets right to the damn point. Yep, 16 can't defeat Cell and they don't drag it out either. 16 says himself that he's only capable of stalling Cell. Piccolo had a decent fight against 17 but he straight up told the former to _run_ once Cell showed up. He didn't kid himself.
@@rhondahoward8025 frieza didnt need to take from others to be the supervillian . he was just so much stronger than everybody on his own which made him the ultimate villian from the start . this cell guy is just a thief and really has no true source of power. Is he frieza? is goku? is he vegeta? is he piccolo? . thats the main issue with the android saga is it just borrowed powers so there is no originality like with frieza . frieza will always be king to cell because he was such a bad ass and nobody wanted a piece of him . goku was no match for him at first even at his best .
Semi-Perfect Cell's design is indeed ugly. But I think my biggest nitpick about it is losing the wings in this form only to gain it back when he reached his Perfect form.
Yeah, that never made sense to me.
You know I have not thought about that. Yea it makes no sense and looks stupid. I guess Cell can make his wings appear and disappear at anytime. Or i.e. Toriyama had another oops moment. Yea I go with that.
Its a homage to Evolution. As things evolve they lose and regain things
Am I the only one who thinks Cell's second form is the best looking one? It's exactly because of the wings, in a series were all the characters can fly by using their ki wings feel redundant and pointless.
The absolute stupidity of everyone involved in this island nonsense really took me out of the story.
Vegeta: Actively decides to *aid the villain* and fights the heroes just so he can feed his fragile ego with a better fight and let Cell become perfect.
Krillin: Deciding that destroying the remote, instead of using it to save the world or even use it to negotiate with the androids, is the best course of action. Bulma's efforts ruined cause boners.
Trunks: The "pragmatic" Z-Fighter who decides that, at this moment, protecting his father's aforementioned fragile ego and holding back his power is the best decision.
Android 17 & 18: Never taking the chance to just RUN AWAY while Cell is busy with Piccolo and later Android 16. Hell not helping 16 against Cell when the three of them could've overwhelmed him for added salt.
Android 16: Not jumping in to help Piccolo & 17, waiting till after Piccolo is taken out and 17 is battered before stepping in to throw hands.
Piccolo: Never once, at any point, trying to warn the androids of a bug monster that wants to consume them. Would it have worked? Probably not, but the guy didn't even try.
Tien: Only jumps in after 17 is absorbed despite having a technique that can at the bare minimum keep Semi-Perfect Cell in place.
Dumbasses, all of them.
Everything about this series of fights represents what I loathe about Dragon Ball.
Unlike Lance, the thing I most enjoy about the series is the combat. But unlike others, it's that I truly enjoy the *Combat* . I don't give af about how high the power levels go or alien transformations. They're completely different things. I want to see the story be told through physical action and the resulting consequence. This stands in direct opposition to writing that Toriyama has already established. Now that's not a bad thing in a vacuum, but within the context of Dragon Ball it's dog shit. It's the polar opposite of the battle against Vegeta. Everyone stands around waiting, humouring the idea that: "Oh my goodness. They'we jus too stwong 😨😨"
This is a series about fighters. Fighting. It is an affront to who they are that they literally just sit around and watch. It's why Tienshinhan has the coolest moment in the whole arc, and how in the same coin, Trunks' amazing character and good faith built with the audience is ruined. Trunks has been conditioned to take the most pragmatic routes and deal with threats with the most amount of intelligence and the least amount of mistakes made, so it's actively against Trunks' development that he would wait around to let this maniac fuck it up for everyone. Especially when Trunks is going *So* *Far* out of his way to make the lives of what are essentially strangers better. Just because he's that good of a guy. Him standing around and just letting Vegeta do what he wants is disgusting and I can't help but be reminded that Vegeta is just allowed to do what he wants because: "Story can't happen if he doesn't" rather than actually intending to allow the characters to be characters.
We've told this story before. But that's not a bad thing. Cell and the Androids are a wholly unique problem to The Saiyan Saga, but we've already established within the context of Dragon Ball, that hard work can overcome the elite, and that through teamwork, people who could never defeat the enemy individually could do so together. I understand that Cell is stronger comparatively to those on the bench than Vegeta was to Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe. But that doesn't really matter when it would at least be a: 7 vs 2.
Piccolo, 16 and 18, Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, and Trunks all don't want Cell to transform. Vegeta and Cell are the only ones that do. You're telling me that Vegeta and Cell could honestly take both Androids at the same time, a wounded Piccolo, Tien (Who held back Cell by himself, no assistance) + Krillin PLUS Yamcha? It's just not true, proven by the text itself, not me making leaps. And I'm being VERY generous because Goku and Gohan are watching the fight take place and could easily be there in a flash to assist.
The characters only wait around because Toriyama wants the story to be a certain way, and characters acting at all, in any conceivable fashion, means that the story has to change to accommodate and that Cell transforming is really just bad design and isn't very feasible with such a large cast of fighters/martial artists to combat his goals.
I understand that Krillin, and Yamcha are to an extent, the Yajirobe equivalent in this Saiyan Saga comparison, power level wise. But that just bolsters the argument, because Yajirobe landed a pivotal hit because it doesn't matter. A numbers advantage is insane, Toriyama's own writing supports that idea. Especially when compounded with techniques and martial arts skills learned that scale well even through powerups. Solar Flare, and Tri-Beam are literally meant to punch above their weight.
But yeah this shit sucks. People who think it's sick boggle my mind personally. I think Vegeta's Final Flash is literally one of the worst things in the entire franchise.
The only thing I'm not sure I can sign off on is calling Tien a dumbass. He had plausible deniability that Cell could have been bluffing (We had no way to actually PROVE that Cell transforms when absorbing Androids, that's just what he says) And IMMEDIATELY asserted his agency when proven otherwise. Tien's dumbassery was at the start of this arc when he was like: "Oh the Androids literally killed your whole family purple hair man? 🤔 Yeah that's tuff cause we're just gonna fight em' anyway. Gotta test me limits.😎"
@@kylefields3951 this such a great look at it and it’s insane to imagine how raw or a struggle it would’ve been to have cell and vegeta team up to jump everyone at the island as the characters use what they know to try and dismantle cell and vegeta
Even if they actually lost, the fact that they actually tried together (as long as they don’t go out like chumps) most people would be more willing to look past cell actually getting to transform.
Main thing I disagree with is just the notion that krillin, vegeta and trunks were being dumb. Vegeta has a genuine internal logic at play that makes sense on paper, and even if you interpret it as something being done for 100% dumb selfish reasons, it’s at least consistent to him and his growth. Issue was (as lance said) the fact that that literally no one is checking on bothering to hold him accountable for any of this
Krillin getting cold feet about killing an innocent person with no Dragonballs to bring them back is an incredibly understandable hang up for a guy like him to have. Only issue is that since this is toriyama we’re talking about, I don’t entirely buy that krillins dilemma is entirely rooted and ethics and morals and moreso just on the fact that she’s hot. Theirs depth in dragonballs simplicity, it’s not just a meat head show, but in this case, I highly doubt that level of complexity Was on his mind.
Similarly, trunks being desperate for a father figure and having a soft spot for his father after already spending a year of time with him after being used to him being dead his whole life, is a Brilliant crutch to explain away why he’s finally getting cold feet and provides for a much more interesting dilemma than him just one shotting cell
Again, the main issue is moreso like you said a bit, i feel like those 3 having these hang ups on their own is fine, seeing tien, 16, piccolo, 17, 18, krillin, trunks and yamcha and maybe even Roshi work TOGETHER to cover the weaknesses of the other would’ve made it work.
And or what lance said at the end of the cell saga on how it could’ve worked if goku apologized for letting his lax accountability and selfishness rub off on his friends and push them to make equally dumb choices rather than let someone else take the helm and allow them to act for themselves and stand by it.
@@theradionicrevival8068 I totally understand your reasoning behind Trunks getting cold feet, and it makes sense, considering he now probably knows Vegeta better than all the rest considering he had just spent a full year with the man, but in my reading, it feels like Trunks should be even MORE proactive since he knows, or that should be the turning point where he goes: "I can't trust this guy."
I have no problem's with Vegeta's decision-making because it is very consistent. 👍My problem with it is Lance's. That everyone around him is an enabler so that the plot can keep going.
And yeah, Krillin's makes sense too. He hasn't necessarily been established as a horn dog, but we know that he wants a wife at some point, so it ties back well to earlier when he gets a kiss from 18.
I have analysed this series front to back, and have done a lot of research on the wiki. Lance's videos have been a godsend on how I view not just Dragon Ball, but my own work. The reason I have such strong views on the subject is because I'm writing a Dragon Ball fan work that spans over 1 million words.
I can understand that the criticism against me could be that I'm headcanoning power levels to match, but the text of the source material *Supports* the idea that when working as a unit, the low levels can surpass an elite. And that martial arts skills scale well, even through mind-boggling power gaps. In THIS FIGHT ALONE, undeniable proof is shown that contributions can be made without being on the same level due to Tien's Tri-Beam, *And* the fact that Cell uses the Solar Flare, to catch everyone off guard and enact his Perfect Form.
I wanna know why 18 and 16 didn't jump in to help 17 fight off Cell at once. True, 16 EVENTUALLY joined in the battle. However, all three may have been able to take him down. Hell, even when Piccolo was still in the fight the curb stomping could've taken place!
I REALLY hated it in the anime because Tien put his life on the line but 18 is just standing around and trying to save 16 (half head blown off) but it wasn't really needed because he wasn't even a target to be absorbed!
granted Cell could have used 16 as a Hostage. come out or I will destroy 16.
Not only that, I think that Trunks should have at least contemplated blowing up 18 when he noticed she was there. He certainly has the power and doesn't have any feelings of fondness towards her at all.
The only thing that comes to my mind is that 16 being an Android had just finished his calculations telling him his strenght and Cell's were on par thus explaining why he awaited so long to make his dramatic entrance to fight Cell. As for 18 i guess at first she could not believe her eyes and then she realized she was outclassed and thinking about she should have escaped. Still she should have escaped much earlier rather than just standing still.
But, if Frieza's genes are dominant, he would kill for the sheer joy of it.
@@KaiserTrigger kaiser trigger is a sexy badass
7:25 Yamaha, Tien, and Krillian flipping the bird to Cell is the greatest thing lol
They even got Trunks in on it.
I didn't even notice that until I seen your comment. No wonder Lance loves it so much. I do too.
Yamaha, Krillian? Lol
Thanks for mentioning about Bulma flying to Kami's Lookout bit. Since most don't remember or watch Dragonball about planes and other flying devices can't reach it... But of course people go by head cannon so their "perfect series" won't have any flaws... Also this part of the story just erks me.
JJDude Funny considering that Mistare used headcanon to explain this right after he brought it up.
@@DarkSlayerZero2000 Except he leaves it very clear it's the only thing he can think of because there's no real explanation, and that's just what he thinks it should if there's to be any explanation. Emphasis on think.
@@MajorLawliet My theory was that Bulma was part the group so she had blessing from God.
Also how the hell was she able to breathe there easily, when Goku as a kid had a hard time breathing there because of how high it was?
Well she manage to survive sex from a Saiyan Prince so being up in the sky shouldn't be such a big deal in comparison.
It always pissed me off to hear Krillin bad mouth Vegeta after losing to Perfect Cell when the audience knows damn well that he and Android 18 fucked up just as much.
Everyone here except Trunks deserve to be lambasted for their decsion.
@@spartanq7781 No, Trunks deserves it too for holding back his power just to not upset Vegeta.
That was in the anime version, not the manga.
The editing on this was so well done, I loved the flame effects on Blooma’s ship. I say this every video but it’s so true, this was hilarious, extremely informative and had so much heart put into it. I’m flabbergasted each time. Super excited for the rest of DBD December!!
I really have to appreciate you for defending Krillin here. Everybody is so quick to point fingers at him when Vegeta is the REAL clown of the fight.
What a coincidence that I typed up a rant about people’s Krillin-blaming, like, yesterday. But so I don’t just copy-paste that here, I just find it funny how everyone seems to forget that Krillin was already questioning the androids’ morality earlier. That he was the only Z-Fighter present who wasn’t attacked by them and tried talking to them. That he witnessed the androids, even when they were the ones pursued, spare his friends and tell him to heal them. Literally the only bad thing Krillin knows about these androids is that they wanna kill Goku, and half the Z-Fighters have wanted to kill Goku at some point, sooo. It’s really just the kiss and the (completely unnecessary) remote-crushing that makes it seem like Krillin is doing this just to get some. At least he had better reasoning than Vegeta!
It’s because of story beats like this that makes me think all DB characters are stupid in their own ways. I know, this is “the idiot plot”, where everyone has to be stupid so one thing can lead to another, but I kinda see this arc as an exploration of various characters’ flaws, specifically under pressure, all while unfortunately highlighting Toriyama’s writing flaws. Striving for perfection is a theme of the arc, isn’t it? And in the end, the Z-Fighters’ greatest enemy turns out to be...THEMCELLVES? ...see what I did there?
So yeah, good vid. As always, looking forward to the next one
You are so right about Piccolo, after the Cell Saga, he pretty much became like everyone else who isn't a Saiyan. He's handled even worse in Super, yeah he got to fight again, but that still doesn't do much for him.
I think Piccolo got it a lot better in super, because you don't need to be a great fighter to be a good character. Piccolo becoming a full-time familyman who's raising Gohans child now is a lot more interesting than him jerking around in the desert all day.
@TheParappa something about Piccolo being a babysitter for Gohan is something I didn’t know I wanted lol
@@TheParappa Yeah, goes to show he's not alone anymore, he's Grandpa Piccolo now, or Uncle Piccolo depending on who you consider being the real father.
Yeah...at the same time though I love the humor we get out of him trying to mentor Gotenks in the Buu saga.
I reckon Piccolo should've become the new god and revived the dragon balls himself, instead of Dende being brought back and who contributes little to nothing to the story. Maybe Piccolo becoming god could be like him fully accepting who he is, as well as giving his character a little bit more to contribute to the story.
I will say though that Vegeta is the most consistent character here. Vegeta didn't want to blow up the ANdroids before they were created by killing Gero. Didn't want to stop 17 and 18 and didn't want Cell to stop becoming perfect. I mean hey he's an idiot but he is at least consistent.
Exactly, I see his stupidity as well written, that doesn't excuse the other sloppy bits of this arc but his dumbass arrogance is consistent whenever he gets the upper hand for more than 10 seconds.
"Tennis Cell" thats a good one, it accurately describes the incessant need for each side to gain a power up to get the edge over the other. And while Piccolo's fight with 17 was cool to see and Tien's efforts were admirable, they ultimately amount to nothing, and pretty much this is the last time we see any of the fighters who DON'T have Sayian genetics in them to play major roles in the Manga anymore which is a real shame in the grand scheme of things.
Wait till we get to Tennis Boo, it's even worse. Gohan becomes the strongest being in existence and does nothing.
@@rafaelandrade7627 It's insane Toriyama commits the same offense three arcs in a row. The difference being instead of Piccolo being green balled is attributed to Gotenks and Gohan. Hell the same for Vegetto. That section of that arc pisses me off because the Super/evil Boo section is so worthless. All the powerups and fusions that was built up mean nothing. Thankfully the pure/kid Boo section is really well done in my book.
@@spartanq7781 The problem is that this super/evil boo part is like half the arc. Frankly, i was so tired by the end of that segment that kid Boo couldn't save it. I think that these tennis moments are the best example that Toriyama is not lying, he really makes it up as he goes along.
@@rafaelandrade7627 He doesn't know how to plan ahead to save his life. Baring a few exceptions. When it feels he is doing it well he out of the blue changes trajectory. The Boo arc did that but at least the early going and the end are so much better. That keeps me from hating it outright. The thing that really frustrates me is Toriyama did this so much better in the Saiyan arc. In that arc there was no need for a billion transformations and powerups to get blue balled. There was real tension back then. Imagine if the Freeza,Cell and Boo fights had that. I do like some parts of them. They just don't compare to the Sayian arc. Yet for some reason the latter arcs are more popular. Proving again that something being more popular doesn't make it better. Perhaps it has a lot to do with Toriyama's editor change. That happened early in the Saiyan arc. It wasn't until the Freeza arc that these problems began. What is even worse is this is still a problem in modern Dragon Ball.
Because there is no dramatic tension. Everything that happens has no consequence to the story. Goten and Trunks spend a lot of time to master fusion and then Gotenks does basically nothing of importance.
Gohan becomes super powerful and then is instantly absorbed by Boo.
Vegeto lasts for like 3 chapters and then he is gone too.
Toriyama just keeps making up new transformations and new forms.
In the end it feels like there are no stakes, we are never watching a fight that matters because every new transformation is quickly topped by some other transformation. Majin Boo himself has 4 diferrent forms in this fight alone.
7:58- no wonder Cell wanted to become perfect right away. He’s subconsciously aware of how ugly he looks. In all seriousness, it highlights how much of a scientific abomination to life that he truly is. Imperfect Cell could be seen as a bipedal, alien beast while Perfect Cell is a white human like being in armor when he’s not a giant or regenerating; Semi-Perfect is a hideous in-between state that has too many artificial elements to be a living creature with human like eyes and semblance of a mouth that puts him into the uncanny valley.
I still wish he kept his first form all the way through :/
Yeah his first form just looked so FUCKING AWESOME
@Kaiser Matt Tygore How would that happen if he was supposed to get a perfect form?
This is probably my least favorite part of the entire Dragonballstory (Super and GT included).
It becomes clear that Vegeta should have stayed dead on namek to save his then interesting character. Instead we get this unbearable idiot-vegeta for the rest of time.
But to say something positive: thank you for this great videoseries. You're doing a very good job!
But then we wouldn't have gotten dork Vegeta.
@@SuperMerlin100 I guess it was worth to keep Vegeta around to see his little bingo-dance later on.
I love Vegetas character development after this point, so its worth it in my book!
@@kayaplaaya9875 You mean when he repeats the same exact mistake in the next arc by helping the bad guys achieve their goal and then being incapable of solving the problem he created? I wouldn't call that 'development'. He is just here to be the idiot who messes up while talking big.
Sorry, I guess I'm just salty about this part of the story since I remember how it basically killed of my enjoyment for dragonball for a long time.
@@TheParappa that was sorta stupid, but considering that he propably had some kind of depression at that point, its underatandable, and I looooooove Dadgeta after this, and him really caring about his family from everything past z is great
This section of the story has always bugged me. Particularly when Cell reaches his 2nd atrocious form. All it amounts to is dick measuring contests. Then everyone except Trunks becomes idiots again. It is obvious Toriyama rushed through it. Due to the ediotoral mandates that deadlocked him again. This arc had been changed mid arc so many times. I wonder if Toriyama even remembers his original trajectory before the forced changes. Cell's middle form is like Freeza's and Majin Boo's. They just exist but only to serve as padding in how there used. It is so frustrating the series since the fight against Freeza adopted this formula. Especially since the Sayian arc did it so well. It didn't have tons of powerups and transformations. That get rendered useless in mere moments. There the tension is always there and is very effective. In these later arcs it is forced.
I'd like to think that even if it was just 17 alive Krillin may have still spared him. Though not for much better reasons. It's revealed later in the story that Krillin assumes that 17 and 18 are a couple and so at some level he may feel a desire to spare him as a kindred spirit. They've both lost that girl they love. Also like with 18, Krillin did see 17's acts of mercy so I could see Krillin sparing him. I think the big issue here is that Krillin might be the softest boy of all of the characters at this point. Goku's never had many qualms about killing animals or "bad people" since his debut. Likewise Bulma has shown a willingness to open fire and the idea that sometimes lethal force must be used. Then we have Tenshinhan who used to be an assassin, Piccolo, a former demon, Vegeta, who relishes murder and battle and Trunks, who has nothing to lose and is ready for revenge. I say that to say that of all the characters at this point, Krillin hasn't killed anyone. Not that he hasn't attempted it, against people such as the saiyans or Freeza, but those were under extreme conditions, and he was never successful. In this situation we have the ONE guy who's never killed anyone tasked with blowing up a helpless scared girl who kissed him on the cheek. And that's in a situation where it seems like the fight's basically resolved by Vegeta. Like as stupid as it is I can totally understand why Krillin, as a character, would make this decision.
Actually Krillin killed several Saibaimen and one of the two Frieza Soldiers who destroyed their Ship.
True but Saibamen hardly read as "people". They're barely sapient. They were born within minutes of them fighting them. And on the topic of the Freeza Soldiers, I've simply never interpreted them as "dead" Krillin and Gohan beat them up but we don't see them snapping their necks or buldgening them. As far as I know they figure Knocked out aliens are just as good as dead aliens.
@@yotomoe5953 Both of them landet in the Water and would most likely drown there before waking up and even if they could breath underwater like the two filler Soldiers Bulma had to deal with in the Anime, they could get eaten by sea creatures while being still knocked out. And for all what Krillin knows he should asume that if the beating he and Gohan gave them didn´t finished them off, the sea would just end their lives instead, and it didn´t concern him one bit.
Hey those two mooks were dicks anyway, they wrecked their spaceship.
@@Irrelevant402 I know that, i just pointed that out as an example that also Krillin does have no qualms about killing certain enemies.
I know this isn't adding anything to the discussion, but... I was one of the many who found and binged Dragon Ball Dissection early this year. It's amazing to finally get Dragon Ball Dissection December, I only wish every month was December! Keep up the good work, MistareFusion, and thank you.
I did too back in the Cell arc part 8. That thumbnail brought me there.
Unpopular opinion: for what it is, I really like Cell's "semi perfect" form. It's perfect for what it needs to be. A mid evolution that keeps many of the buglike inflections and features of the last one, but starts adding in some basic humanoid traits. Still malformed and weird, but I think it works perfectly to demonstrate a monster at his halfway point.
I do like it for the most part and wise we got it longer. I still would have changed his mouth a bit though. Maybe keep the previous form's mouth a little more?
Damnit every time you upload I get an irresistible urge to go listen to Unmei No Hi
I wish Cell's transformations were inverted: Imperfect Cell being the most human in appearance, while Perfect Cell is alien. That would have allowed Cell to play the good guys, posing as an ally until the crucial moment he becomes Semi-Perfect.
The whole 18 remote thing all comes back to one issue that's always erkd me... Why does goku never share his techniques with anyone!?
Fair enough he teaches his eldest son how to master super saiyan and his youngest son how to do the fusion dance but imagine how much more useful itd be to go around teaching people say the instant transmission, kaioken or spirit bomb?
Like imagine tien being able to amp his kikoho with kaioken.
Or Krillin IT'ing the 18 and 16 to let's say roshis place.
Or at any point during this power up tennis match characters can just to charging up spirit bombs to blindside cell with.
Goku sharing his techniques like this make the z fighters and overall more competent unit even making its weakest members potentially a useful asset instead of being at best senzu errand boys and at worst helpless bystanders.
on a similar note, imagine if tien taught goku how to use the kikoho
This might be my absolute favourite episode of dragon ball dissection. The editing was great, the jokes were on point (I literally bursted out in laughter from the Saiyan saga vegeta head on super vegeta), and your points were very clear and I completely agree with what you had to say. Also thank god I wasn’t the only one who thought Burma being able to fly up onto the lookout wasn’t weird. This along with the video about Goku being selfless or selfish or some of my absolute favourites of yours, can’t wait for the next episode.
7:27 Is no one gonna comment on how Krillin and Yamcha are flipping Cell off?
And Trunks
Plus, Trunk's blue hair.
Let’s divvy up the blame on who fucked up and let Cell achieve his perfect form, shall we?
70% Vegeta’s fault for letting Cell absorb 18
20% Krillin’s fault for not destroying 18 when he had the chance
9% 18′s fault for not running while Cell was distracted
1% Trunks’ fault for not blowing up either Cell or 18 when he had the chance.
Honestly:
50% 18s fault
40% Vegeta
10% Krillin
9:59 “There’s real emotion here. Real tension.”
You mean real Tienshinhan
You know the whole arc from the bad future of the evil androids to the whole issue with Cell is all from Commander Red who used his army to gather Dragonballs to just be taller. So a man who wanted a few extra inches indirectly caused a bad future dystopia with killer cyborgs and a bug creature that more or less eats you .
Damn that bastard he doomed us all.
In all honesty, neither Son Goku nor Kuririn's actions could be justified during the Cell Arc. The whole "Dr. Gero hasn't done anything bad yet" excuse just doesn't hold water. At the end of the day, Dr. Gero was a member of a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION and was actively creating engines of death to get revenge on the person who took down his TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. Even if there was something to the theory that Gero's son died when Goku took down The Red Ribbon Army, once again, we're talking about TERRORISTS here. Neither Gero's familial ties nor his grief get to have any relevancy. And that's if that theory is true in the first place. But anyway, yeah. Gero was an evil guy doing evil things.
There's a difference between Dr. Gero and Miles Dyson. Dyson literally had no idea what his work was eventually going to unleash. And then he gave his life to try to stop it immediately upon finding out. Gero might not have known #17 would have killed him, but he knew he was doing evil things. And given the level of scientific tomfoolery he was up to, he was OBVIOUSLY working on said tomfoolery when Trunks warned The Z Senshi about what was going to happen. There's no way he was working on a cure for cancer at the time Trunks showed up, then lost his moral way six months before the "The Date" and did all that scientific horrormongering in time to emerge as #20 in time for "The Date". He was probably half way finished building #19 when Trunks showed up. You just can't justify him having any redeeming qualities at all.
Now, maybe if there was a reboot of Dragon Ball, or a competent American movie was made of The Cell Saga, you could have Goku show up at Gero's lab to try to reason with Gero after Trunks left. Tell him what was going to happen. Then Gero says "Oh wow!! Causing this much death was never my intention. Since The Red Ribbon Army fell I've been working on projects to better my fellow man. Rest assured I'd NEVER do something like what your describing". Goku says "Awesome, glad you understand" and leaves. And of course this would be done without Vegeta knowing since he'd throw a shit fit about it. Gero's face turns from happy and amiable to well, what Dr. Gero normally looks like and reveals that he's doing exactly what Trunks said he was doing. Making killbots. You know, to kill Goku. Seeing as no one's training really led to anything positive except Vegeta's (and he would have done that training anyway because he wanted to surpass Goku) the arc could probably go on as it originally did except Gero would gloat about how easy it was to fool Goku into thinking he wasn't dangerous.
As for Kurirrin, just...no. While I realize the androids in his timeline aren't as bad as the ones from Trunks' timeline, there's no reason to believe that #18 wouldn't just become a pain in the ass that The Z Senshi would have to take down later. Sure, by this point Vegeta is WAY stronger than her and could simply vaporize her if she stepped out of line. But between her potential to become a menace and the chance of Cell finding another way to catch up with her/track her down, Kurirrin not deactivating her was just STUPID. Because he couldn't control his horniness. I'm a big Kurirrin fan, but this is a very low moment for the character, it really is. I get she eventually married Kurirrin's horny ass, but seeing as #18 would have had to deal with not only Vegeta but Gohan if she tried anything stupid, it made sense for her to retire from the asassination game at that point. But yeah, someone should have slapped Kurirrin for not pushing the button. Too much was at stake.
I imagine that cell if uninformed about Namek regeneration would figure it out about regeneration on his own pretty quickly after he did from being told. Totally agree about semi perfect imperfect is really creepy perfect is really cool and 2nd form is absolutely no amount of either
I don't know what you'll make of Vegetas decision here, but I think think it's perfectly in line with his characterization ever since he was introduced:
If you think about it, his whole fixation on power and pride revolve entirely around his conceptions of Freeza and "Kakarot". While cautious and devious when he was under the impression that he could not defeat the former and his forces, that idea goes out of the window the moment Goku, someone that to his mind must be weaker than him, proves he can soundily defeat the latter through the Super Saiyan transformation, a fact that is further impressed upon him when Trunks defeats Cold and Freeza with ease. The moment he achieves that power he's diluted himself into believing there can be no more powerful beings than that even if it is demonstrably shown to be false.
If Goku and Trunks can defeat Freeza, and he, as the Prince of all Saiyans is stronger than them, then surely there can be no stronger being than him? Vegeta is absolutely desperate to prove himself; he's not thinking about how he can undermine an insurmountable force through cunning and suberfuge, it's all about proving he is the strongest. He absolutely refuses to be who he was in the Freeza arc.
I lol'd at 12:18. You seem to have found my tickle button.
The "hasn't hurt anyone but Vegeta" qualifier is golden
Honestly that alone would pardon her for me.
And I was JUST going to sleep. Jeesh...
Question: are you going to touch on Vegeta's characterization next part? At least a bit? Because I think it deserves to be commented on how he was so pragmatic against Freeza but now he's so careless ... And at the same time how you can kind of see the seeds of his overconfidence in the past, and it's a very plot-relevant decision he took there.
(Also Trunks getting tired of his shit)
He said he'll get to that later.
Honestly, I think I already know the answer about your question, actually : "how he was so pragmatic against Freeza but now he's so careless", just like you said and seemed to wonder yourself about it...so here's my opinion, speaking of which :
Vegeta feared Freeza for litterally decades even before meeting Goku and his friends. He just grew up for basically his entire life under Freeza's rule and was fully aware of Freeza's unyielding superior power level to his own ! Remember in the namek arc, just in the very beginning and precisely in the exact same time when Vegeta landed to Planet Namek for the first time onscreen. One of the top first things he said at this time was "I could beat everyone except Freeza...", so try to imagine now how terrifying Freeza should look or appear to our heroes back then, when a true deadly enemy like Vegeta was, at this time again and also how arrogant and prideful he is even a long time after this one though, is telling he would have no chance at all to win against this guy named Freeza only by himself ! Besides the Z-Team at that time, he was hands down the one to know Freeza the best of them all and therefore had probably the best reasons in the world (and even in the universe at this point) to truely fear Freeza for what he was back then (both himself and Freeza actually)...
But what now when we talk about Cell and Buu to Vegeta's mind about them ? He just didn't know both of them at all before meeting them, exactly like the rest of the Z-Team from which he became part of it in one way or another, obviously...
So what remains from Vegeta since Freeza's era ? Like I said, most arrogant and prideful guy ever in regard of the Z-Team where he stands now on...he feared Freeza because he learned to know him for years and years since he was a kid himself, but Cell and Buu, seriously...why would he even fear them while he barely meet them and just hear his Z-Team's barely even friends from his own point of view to talk about them...but when you barely consider your partners like your friends and even not at all, to tell things they were back then, that your life's worst living nightmare has been taken down for a while, that you finally managed to achieve yourself a superior power level to the only one thing you really feared before, that your ego has grown even outrageously bigger than it already was from the start and the comrades you just scornfully treat are telling you that a bigger threat is coming, well...do I look arrogant myself if I say it never really surprised me for a single second, even when I was a kid myself, to see Vegeta laughing at everyone else who was telling him this and never take serious credit to whatever they would say to him until he managed to meet himself these monsters they were talking about and just watch only to realize by himself how dangerous they could be actually ? Long story short : "I only believe what I can see by myself", would truely be the best way to define Vegeta's philosophy...obviously according to my personnal opinion, once again.
Basically I think it's as simple as Vegeta smelling himself for the first time. He was powerful as a regular Saiyan, but he was under a _titan_ at the time with Frieza. Also, he had his careless moments in the Namek Saga too. Like letting Zarbon power up and then toying with Goku on Earth until he went Kaioken x3.
Pragmatic against Freeza? Vegeta literally let First Form Freeza transform because he thought he could handle it with the help of the others.
If you want to disable a dangerous device with a button on it, I suggest not stepping right onto the button. It's like having one of those TNT push handles, and trying to disable it by karate-chopping down on the handle. I'd expect a BOOM in around 98% of cases.
Great episode as always. A couple of thoughts I have during this portion of the story:
First, I don't have a problem with bulma getting into the heavenly realm and not just because god isn't there. It always made sense to me. The previous god has met goku and his friends and knows they aren't evil. He's met bulma, chi chi, muten roshi and the others during the 23rd tenkaichi, so I never had a problem with bulma being allowed access to the sanctuary. I never assumed getting to the heavenly realm was a shield. More like god striking people down if he didn't want them coming there.
Second, there is a lot of blame to go around in this arc as you mentioned. Krillin could've stopped cells by destroying number 18. Vegeta could've killed cell. However, in either of these case, no matter how INCREDIBLY STUPID their decision turned out, to me it never felt out of character. Vegeta letting cell absorb number 18 is perfectly within his character. Unlike goku who's obsession with fighting came after his saiyan heritage reveal, vegeta from the begining has been someone who wants to fight stronger foes. Remember, he came to earth initially to wish for immotality, not to rule the world or anything. Instead it was so he could keep fighting forever. And even in the freeza saga, while vegeta was sneaking around, it was always for the purpose of getting strong enough to defeat freeza. Again, not for any righteous reasons. Just to fight and defeat him.
Someone who could've done something, but choose not to (and i'm sure you will address it in the next episodes) is trunks. Also, I know why they don't do this, because it would kill the drama in the story, but tien using multiple kikoho and surviving (even long enough for goku to pick him, piccolo up and monologue to cell) shows that he could've used the mafuba and survived. Again, I know why they don't do it, but it did come to mind since the artificial humans came to roshi's island and he wasn't involved in the fight.
Also, and I hope you address this in the future, 18 is essentially done as a character from this moment on. Like chi chi, she will be used as an empty womb for krillin, but unlike chi chi or bulma, it is just done to give krillin a kid that doesn't serve any purpose. She doesn't even get that involved in the buu arc because she gets taken out along with all of the non fighters. I almost wonder if toriyama never had plans for her, why he kept her around. I mean don't get me wrong, I think she is a great addition to the male dominated roster of fighters. I am glad Super brought her back to being a legitimate fighter. But still, if toriyama didn't have plans with her, I am surprised he didn't just dispose of her.
Finally, looking at it now, it's hard to say but torishimas involvement in this might have been the reason why this arc feels so different. I have a feeling that if condo Yu got his way, he would've kept 19 and 20 and most likely done a retread of the Saiyan arc. But with the suggestions causing a massive change in the story, led to moments where we discuss the moral compass of characters and I actually like that.
Only reason I can see for Tien not using the mafuba is that Cell should be able to reverse it.
Sorry for multiple comments, but I've watched this video like 5 times now haha another thing that 'bothered' me about Bulma going up to the Lookout is the fact from DB that being that high up in the air make it hard to breathe due to well 'thin air.'
How the hell is Trunks (baby Trunks) and Bulma able to act like nothing is different about being on the Lookout vs. being on the planet (lower planet)?
Just realized something, when cell first arrives, couldn't Goku just use instant transmission to get to the island and teleport the androids somewhere else?
He could lock on to Piccolo or cells ki and take the androids to anywhere literally in a matter of seconds.
"Did he forget that he could do that?"
"Your father is an idiot."
I kinda doubt the Androids would agree to be teleported so willingly before 17 got absorbed.
It doesn't really matter if they agree or not. Goku could just pop into the scene, teleport behind them, and teleport someplace else. Speed isn't an issue as well since it's instant!
You forget they were pretty much _programmed to kill him._ The moment he shows up, 16 is gonna jump him.
@@GohanLSSJ2 ^OR perhaps Toriyama just didn't think of this scenario or any of the consequences related to it, especially considering that, you know, he wrote the manga on the fly.
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't bring up how the kikoho changed from Tien putting his hands over each other, to his fingertips touching.
Man It's so refreshing to hear you be so positive again!! Pretty much everything you said inn this video I agreed with!! Also dude If you feel like a mess get some sleep. You deserve it!
The hate for semi perfect cell's design expressed here is really funny in hindsight given the events of DBS Superhero
They're spitting us.
10:00 "Real emotion, real tension. " Tension.... Tenshinhan.... ahh I see what you did there. Kaiou Sama would be proud.
I normally think Vegeta is alright (especially in the Saiyan/early Freeza/late Buu arcs) but god I can't stand him in this arc. He's one of the reasons I consider the Cell arc to be the lowest point of the original DB manga
Black&Blue cell saga was some of his best moments
@@NastalgicCLOWN80687 He has only two moments he shines in. All he does the rest of the arc is make dumb decisions. Then get his ass kicked. Oh boy such riveting moments.
It certainly is all Vegeta's fault when you get down to it, but that's a good thing, or at least a well-written one. Even in his more pragmatic days, as soon as he thought he'd reached some new legendary power he was goading people to transform...honestly he must've been a really useful character to have around, just throw him at any situation you don't want resolved yet and it's really easy to have him mess it up.
That's fair
YossarianVanDriver pretty much why toriyama keeps him around
Yh pretty much like a Hisoka.
They were going to transform anyway it's not the same thing
i always wondered what happened to yamcha since he just disappeared from kame house
Trunk's meltdown at Vegeta letting Cell go and Krillin crushing the remote in the TFS dub was one of the funniest and most self aware bits they did.
Trunks - "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"
Vegeta letting Cell absorb 18 makes perfect sense even if it was stupid.
At that point in time, vegeta was the strongest person around and only trunks was close to him in power.
Secondly, I'm sure he thought to himself that " Cell absorbed 17 and he's still no match for me, even if he absorbs 18, the gap in power won't be closed"
Basically he didn't anticipate the whole being greater than sum of parts.
Plus he's vegeta, showing off and destroying your enemy at their "best" is something he would definitely want to do
Freeza could transform at will. So the fact that he didn't go hard right at the start is dumb. At least cell had conditions. Had to outsmart the androids for 17. Had to "outsmart" vegeta for 18. So it's less stupid
it didn't look too big on vegeta until you put his Saiyan arc head on it lol NOW it looks tiny.
It's worth saying that DBZ Abridged addressed a lot of my narrative quibbles with this whole Androids/Cell/Cell Games arc.
I would like to see MistareFusion cover this, I think that his knowledge of the original content would be quite an insight to the show.
I wouldn’t say they “fixed” anything. They just point out the absurdities that happen in the story and make a joke about it. They changed/added explanations for a few things. But mostly kept the story intact.
One of the running jokes is about how nobody knows how much time has passed due to the fact that it always looks like it’s noon. And when some character explains how much time has passed “it’s been 12 hours”, someone always respond “WHEN!!?? HOW!!??”
The point of exchanges like this is to make fun of the time aspect of the story, not “fix” it.
16's backstory was brilliant
@@pranavsriram4794 It's a parody. It's supposed to have a more comedic tone. But they were able to pull a dark or emotional tone when they wanted
I had been discussing Bulma's access to God's Temple on Kanzenshuu a few weeks back. The possible theory there is that once the Nyoi-bo is in place, the Temple exists in our space. When it's not, then the Temple is in the Heavenly Realm. Since the nyoi-bo was in place (maybe?) during this arc, it exists enough in our space that Bulma could go there...
I figured Kami himself personally knocked down rockets that come up uninvited.
But since he is not here is why Bulma easily got a plane to fly up there.
I have to work, oh well, this is happening now.
"with his flat nose, bulbous lips and smug looking eyes"
me:...damn you didn't have to do me like that
Never thought too much about Krillins dilemma here but yeah, good points for why it's understandable. And yeah, Tien's moment here is the last major combat highlight for non Saiyan kind until like TOP. And it's a damn good one
You brought a really interesting point with the alternative scenario of Krillin being on the exact same situation with 17 instead of 18...I still think Krillin's good nature would have gotten the better of him, and would still have refused to push the button...or maybe I'm just giving the horny bald man too much credit.
With an Android like 18 I don't blame him.
I just love this part of the Cell arc, the moment when instant transmission could solve all problems but is only used at the one time when it's honestly not needed at all. Man even if Goku only used it to take 18 away from the fight then prior to Vegeta getting out of the time chamber then Vegeta wouldn't have had a chance to be Vegeta.
Idiot plot is the only reason why his arc even occurs anyway so I guess complaining is pointless.
thepainsight And how would Goku find 18 to teleport her?
Maybe locking onto Piccolo's Ki when he fighting 17 or onto Cell's when he transformed and the situation is falling apart? She was visible in both situations. Maybe via his magic telepathy he has whenever the plot requires it?
@@thepainsight Forget about that he could have teloported everyone right on Cell. They could have ended this from back on the plane. Hell the anime thought of that and added a line addressing it. Which makes it even more noticeable and stupid that he didn't. So really everyone except Trunks is at fault. Which also ties back into them letting Gero create his death machines. Everyone except Trunks are such idiots.
@@spartanq7781 You mean when Goku teletransported back to the plane after recovering from his illnes? I do not think he could have done that as Cell was suppressing his ki and the z senshi were traveling by plane to prevent Cell from following their movements. Still it is true that Goku could have teletransported to 17 and 18 during Piccolo's fights by locking onto the latter's ki or when Cell was transforming but maybe in the first instance Goku feared for his life and thought Cell would have attacked them while he was focusing for the teletransportation what with the latter 's much faster speed. After all It is well istant but Goku needs to take preparations depending on the distance he has to travel to. It is a pretty weak excuse but it is an excuse nevertheless.
@@brunaciompi1717 You do realize he had the entire day. Sense he was just sitting on his ass. Whenever Cell attacked his ki is no longer suppressed. It's how they knew where he attacked.
It's a shame Piccolo and Tenshinhan essentially fizzle out for the rest of the series here. Well, Tenshinhan was already there anyway. The Kikoho is my favorite technique in the series. If I remember correctly in the manga, it's used once more against Majin Buu, but it does nothing. I do wonder if Tenshinhan should have shot Android 18 instead of Cell. Probably doesn't kill her though. Also, your commentary on Kuririn's actions was interesting, but I still think he was a total dunce for not pressing that button. If Android 17 is there instead, Kuririn probably doesn't showcase that ridiculous behavior, and that's my main gripe with it. It's a shame that Toriyama really degraded Kuririn as a character by having him negate the fate of humanity, because he was received a kiss on the cheek from an Android that hurt his friends, and was out to murder his best friend. And then who knows what chaos afterward. It's just ridiculous.
TheLoneDraftsman i think piccolo beating the shit out of ssj2 gohan is a pretty cool thing
@@freecandy4580 Is that Super? I can't remember.
TheLoneDraftsman yeah
It wasn't just the kiss, like the dub made it seem. Krillin realised that the Androids weren't that bad of people right after they spared him and his friends, plus the kiss. Remember, Krillin did ask Trunks earlier if the Androids in his future were that bad, Trunks responded that they were more evil than the present versions.
Oh, and about the Androids hurting his friends. Remember, they attacked the Androids first.
While I don't like Semi-Perfect Cell's design, I think that it's intentionally supposed to look weird. It's like puberty for him. In spite of its ugliness, I still find it a more interesting design than Perfect Cell. It's kind of like Frieza, where I find his first, second and even his third forms more visually interesting than his true form.
My problem with Krillin's decision is that it feels like the only reason he wants to save Android 18 is to start a romantic relationship with her. What infuriates me more is that there's no real reason Krillin should be in love with 18. The woman wants to kill his best friend, and Krillin still wants to sleep with her. She kisses him on the cheek, yeah, but that's after she and her brother fight Krillin's allies/friends! That's not romantic, that's just uncomfortably creepy. Their relationship alongside Bulma and Vegeta's feels really forced, just because Krillin needed a girlfriend/wife after wanting one for so long.
If Lance hates Frieza Tennis and Cell Tennis, how badly will he react to Buu Tennis?
BlueMageDanny Depends on how badly the manga mangled it. I have only seen the anime, not the manga.
So I know the anime drags its feet with “Buu tennis” worse than any arc before it. But perhaps the manga was better paced? I’d have to read it or wait for Mistare to review it to find out.
@@brabbit330 I know the manga is shorter, at least. The anime had a lot of filler.
@@TheAzulmagia Honestly Freeza tennis is the worse with it. However the Boo arc does the same thing for a third arc in a row. So with that he will tear into it.
Super late, my problem is that vegeta had a hard on for cell to become perfect when he never met cell before, he was a unknown to the likes of vegeta and No.18 should've been his primary target and he wasnt even interested in the woman who broke his arm and saiyan pride.
Second form Cell is a great look for a Heel. I love it! Especially since Perfect Cell gives me the same vibe as final form Frieza. It'd be nice if we didn't have 2 main villains in a row with so many similarities. I get it, Cell has Frieza's cells. Doesn't make it less boring.
Super Saiyan Arc Vegeta, hell yeah xD
I agree that panel before android 16 fought cell was awesome oh yeah and android 16 vs imperfect cell was a cool fight
I think Toriyama knew how ugly Semi-perfect Cell's design was. In the title page Cell talks about how he's going to miss this "sweet mask" as he calls it. Obviously, Semi-perfect Cell's face is everything but sweet so personally, I think Cell was intentionally designed it look as ugly as possible as some kind of joke or something
I'm surprised you didn't get into Vegeta. You gave good depth into Krillin and 18, but not into Vegeta and Trunks. Just bringing up that Vegeta's dumb action screwed everyone over. I thought you'd discuss stuff like how Vegeta letting an enemy get stronger runs counter to his Freeza arc attitude or something that requires more than 10 seconds of thought.
I very clearly said in the video that I would be getting to Vegeta later.
@@MistareFusion My B. When you said you'd go into Vegeta, I thought that you would specifically consider his actions following everything here. Because, while you discussed Krillin's actions at length here, he still has a bit of plot left to contribute to. Then again, UA-cam is basically my background noise during mundane activities, so I probably didn't pay hard enough attention.
I think this clearly show that Vegeta around the time was the Token Evil Teammate of the group someone who while might fight with the others doesn't have very heroic motives and instead is fighting for ego purposes
Next episode’ll be up on my birthday? Nice.
@ 9:50
Lmao Dick measuring contest
I nearly fainted because I was unable to breathe from laughing so much
Well he's not wrong.
I kinda want piccolo to habe a power up but I know they will make him fuck up so goku has to step in. Power levels and transformations ruined the show.
the power balance problem is always something I hate in anime where characters we know are strong or get stronger are just there job to the next villain character for the main character to fight Bleach did this a lot.
The anime version was annoying, Trunks does manage to keep Cell away from 18, but he tells her to run instead of destroying her. 😂
But, just like Piccolo's merging with God, Tien's Shin Kiko-Ho moment is completely useless since Cell gets to absorb 18 anyways. Nothing about the story would have changed if Tien wasn't there. Cell absorbs 18, beats up Vegeta and humiliates Trunks. That's it.
It's not Tien's fault obviously, but it still makes the entire moment pointless.
Wow. So many wasted potentials in this arc. Piccolo, the remote, Vegeta.... it’s like a whole convention of Denshi jars. Far worse than the Piccolo Daimo arc.
How did this Dragon Ball discussion because Artificial Human trolley problem-esque discussion... I like it.
12:17 I love you
I do believe Krillin wouldn't have used that button against 17 either but I must admit that's all it is, a belief. Krillin isn't a cold blooded murderer and Cell was seemingly outmatched by Vegeta completely. The only thing I can see him doing differently with 17 in 18's place would be to not make it a show of destroying the remote. Although he might still have had to do it just to gain 16 and 17's trust. I kind of like that part of the story but I really feel like it accelerated too much and ditching all of the subtlety from Cell 1st form was a huge mistake. It's also where the Android/Cell saga loses me until Gohan fights Cell and I stop caring. In hindsight, with the story staying the same length or very close. I would have happily traded some of the Cell Games for a better Semi Perfect Cell part.
I feel like despite the "tennis," the battles are best known for how the Anime presents them with their voice acting, sound design and visuals. Even with the padding, there's something about an animated DBZ fight that can get a real "Fuck Yeah!" out of a fan even if the narrative around it falls short. I don't defend these shortcomings like why the Z fighters let the Androids be built but watching Dragon Ball Z Kai, I never really gotten board watching the battles be they stretched out or rushed out.
Really, fans hadn't seen Dragon Ball to know how things use to be so as far as anybody cared, the battles and how good or bad they were mattered more.
why the hell didn't goku tp to tien grab 18, and tp back to lookout?
Because Toriyama writes without anything resembling an outline or storyboard.
Would Semi-Perfect Cell's design change if 18 was absorbed instead?
I doubt it
@@tiablue9106 Out of all the pandering crap in Dragon Ball Heroes and things like that, I thought someone would have thought of that sooner.
Yeah, since so many ppl seem to hate Semi-Perfect Cell’s look, maybe they should just make an alternate one using that scenario :P
I accept Semi-Perfect Cell for the soul reason to just beat him up. And that he is made to be hated on. But final form, nooooo.
10:43 That's just one of the many things fans think about more than Toriyama does.
Me at 4:00 - But Laaaaance, you can't really blame Piccolo fo---
Me at 13:10 - Come oooooon Laaaaance, you can't seriously blame Krillin for not wanting to ki---
Well played, sir.
I wonder if Toriyama made Cell look smug and ugly as a passive aggressive way of getting back at his editors for making him do several story changes and forcing him to stick with the “transforming villain” trope.
Hmm gets one thinking.
Funny to think this but I've always been the 'oddball' in terms of liking forms or beings that looked 'weird' by most fans:
-3rd form Frieza
-Android 19
-Semi Perfect Cell
-Evil Buu (the gray skinny form)
Typically, it is the forms of beings who we don't see too much of that I like the most based on their weird appearances.
BUT why everybody assumed that deactivating cyborgs would render them useless for Cell? I'm convinced by lack of direct evidence that Cell still would be able to transform after absorbing deactivated no 18. Deactivation means to put to sleep or into unconsciousness, but Cell doesn't need cyborgs to be aware at all. All he needs is their bodies intact.
metal87power The characters could easily destroy the androids with a normal ki blast once they were deactivated and defenseless.
+Noa Pestana krillin wouldn't even be able to pick up 18, much less destroy her. it would be dead weight.
@@Tvboy777Didn't 18, 17, and 16's in his pod survive Trunks blowing up the lab?
Feels good man
With all the questionable and inconsistent story beats and characterization you would think people would be more tolerant when it happens in modern db. Side note, I know it seems like I keep defending DBS but I do think most of it is MORE problematic then what came before, it's just that it is less "DB sucks now cause it makes no sense" and more "It always didn't make sense, it is just apparent now." And really the biggest thing that makes the original better is that it is better at hiding all the dumb and nonsensical things that happen. Matter of fact it is one of the only things alongside big chunks of DB having actual story and adventure. The quality of execution, imo, isn't that much better beforehand at least not in the Z era, especially later. DBS almost picks up where Buu left off, continuing to spiral into absurdity as though it never ended.
Z/Kai flawed but entertaining while Super is a boring cash grab for most of the part because it's a interquel with 3 bad retelling of movies in a arc format that's the first reason.
Another reason a lot of fans aren't more tolerant when it comes to modern Dragon Ball because of the hype it had with the other universes that they mentioned but never exploreand if you follow that hype and for most it doesn't live up to it maybe for some moments.But Super is supposed to be improvement of Z since Toei and Toriyama had 19 years off after Z ended,The problem is that they get good writers to read the Original source to avoid the bad writing Z had but they got a bad writer for the manga and bad writers for the anime and gave us more flawed material with the flaws of Z but cranked up by a 100.The Flaws in Super are bigger and easier to point out that's a fact...I go as far Super would be cancel if it came out in the 90's it seems like it has nothing to tell with no tension and you think people would be more tolerant when the series doesn't start off with a bang with filler retellings and become nonsense as it goes on with Original arcs that takes no effort compare to arcs that came before it?
@@deonterector If Super was a cash grab, they would've forced the anime back years ago. 😂
As great as the cell/android arc was The problem with the cell and androids arc as a whole was the fights were all one sided unlike the fights at the tournament of early dragon ball all the way the freeza arc the fights kept you on your toes to see who would win but this arc basically went into a pattern Trunks easily beats Freeza and Cold, 20 easily beats Yamcha, Vegeta easily beats 19, Piccolo easily beats 20, 18 easily beats Vegeta, and so on. The only true equal fight is piccolo vs 17 and Goku vs 19, and that's only because Goku is at a distinct disadvantage for the entire fight. transformations are used to one up their opponent and fights arent very tense, except piccolo and 17 and tenshinhan vs cell. but same pattern continues when the saiyans to take the center stage again making the rest of the non saiyan warriors irrelevant
I'd doom the world for 18 too tbh.
The fact that Tenshinhan leaps into action despite not being able to keep up is far more satisfying than the weaker characters simply being the peanut gallery. It shows that they could have still had something to do.
10:46
Ok, so let me get this straight: You don't mind the devaluing of the Kamehameha Wave into being "Baby's First Ki Attack." You don't mind super saiyan being devalued into a bargain sale. You don't mind flying being devalued to the point that Gohan is shocked to find out that Goten can't fly. You don't mind metal-bending being devalued by having an entire police force who can do it.
But this - devaluing a location that has been featured in literally every saga since its introduction - this is where you draw the line?
Seriously, it just seems like you're cherry-picking what aspects of "forward progress" and "devaluing what came before" does and doesn't matter to you!
Those things are mostly devalued from a views perspective but not a literal one. They also serve a narrative purpose, for example trunks n Goten turning super Saiyan allows them to be major players in the story, gives new exploration in seeing what normal children would do with the power, n for comedic moments. Kamehameha was explained within the story to be a simplistic which is why it's the first ki attack to be seen but it doesn't make it any less useful when Goku or anyone uses it. Also none of these devalued concepts contradict anything. Even super Saiyan was a legend n mystery n nothing about it states children can't become super Saiyan. N fact Gohan already devalued it long before trunks and Goten. Flying wasn't devalued, it just simply got mastered by more characters. N Gohan was mostly surprised Goten couldn't fly because he grew up with most fighters flying n he learned to fly before Gotens age and strength was achieved.
So as for kami's palace. The fact that it becomes a hangout for just any character completely contradicts all of the rules explained about it and there's no narrative need for EVERY character to be allowed to hangout there. Because it's supposed to be gods palace n only those invited/worthy are allowed it does devalue the use of it narratively by changing the nature of it n doesn't open up any major opportunities. This is different than the other instances imo.
@@paintbrush3554 I remember, nearly everyone had a problem with the SSJ bargain sale by the Buu Saga, especially how Goten and Trunks got it. 😂
I love your dissections!
Another great video!
Loved your analyse with Tenshinhan and yeah it is a shame as badass as the scene was that he and the rest of the none Sayian cast (Plus your point on Piccolo's power up) got screwed so heavily.
Also fantastic outline regarding everyone's mistakes and Krillin's not wholly noble motivations.
its here
Watching this during school is the best
Tension Han :p
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking it