Toriyama's Soft Reboot - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 6!
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2018
- Trunks returns from the future to warn the heroes of two Artificial Humans. Wait. Haven't we done this already? Well, due to some timely interference from his old boss, Toriyama's decided we're doing it again. This time we're trading out the "geezer and fatso" for a couple of brats.
- Розваги
Looks at 19 and 20: “those are just a geezer and a fatzo!” Looks at 17 and 18: “those are just a couple of brats!” Looks at Cell: “ew! that’s disgusting!” Looks at Cell’s second form: “yuck! that’s even MORE disgusting!” Looks at Perfect Cell: “fine, that’ll work.”
4:50
Android 18 kicking Vegeta's ass is one of my favorite moments in the series. Watching him and his over-inflated ego get taken down a peg never gets old, and neither does watching her break his arm.
Meh
Especially at the hands of a woman.
Lmfao! The hairless trio!😂🤣
That is so true!
i called them bald squad when i first watched this on kai
MrAwesome45 lmfao!!!😂that’s even better!!🤣
16 really does feel like more story to tell. Without getting head canon and real canon confused, I love the interpretation TeamFourStar went with for 16's back story. That Gero's son was killed by Goku during the raid on the Red Ribbon Army base in that saga, thus giving a purpose to Gero's anger at Son Goku specifically and for why 16 is built seemingly with the sole purpose to kill Goku and nothing else. Gero built an Android in the image of his son to extract revenge. It is of course just head canon, but it is a cool idea.
Oh, yeah. Had the story actually used that idea, it could have been fantastic. But as a shoehorned-in piece of trivia introduced decades later, it's just completely worthless.
It does feel like something that the story could've throw in if it came to Toriyama at the time. If given some forethought, #16's affinity for nature could've come from the personality Gero programmed to be like his own son and was feared to turn on his master if it lead to self-awareness if him trying to blow Cell up with him to save Earth is anything to go by.
Nothing too big or plot twist-y so much as seasoning for the character itself. Perhaps he questions his programming when Goku explains why he raided the Red Ribbon Army given they were threatening the world.
I actually refer that headcanon over the actual story where, Gero's son was just killed by a random bullet. It completely takes away relevance and the personal connection to make sense of 16. Its Trivial that doesn't really add onto anything or connect anything together from Toriyama I dislike, as it sounds like just his own headcanon and nothing actually worth knowing.
@@matt0044 Even then he still lets Yamcha carry Goku away. You'd think if his goal is killing someone he'll do it. Especially when he's at deaths door. Geez everyone in this arc is so stupid.
@@spartanq7781 hes basically a more serious Calamitous.
What's frustrating about the trivia of 16 being Gero's son is that not only would that have enriched both of their characters if it had been in this story but it also would've helped reinforce the nascent theme of this arc (or rather the theme this arc could've had with minimal rewrites), which is that of fatherhood and legacy.
Vegeta's relationship with Trunks, and later Gohan's desires vs. Goku's expectations of him, are major throughlines of this arc, and adding another father/son dynamic via 16/Gero could've helped tie the whole arc together. Hell, the Frieza/King Cold bit at the beginning could've been tied in if that was the plan from the start (which it wasn't).
Even in the arc's current form, I still like the neat contrast where the villains of this arc view their "children" as expendable or as tools to fulfill their own will, but the arc ends with Goku realizing that Gohan doesn't share his own desires for combat, and with Vegeta and Trunks (sort of) reconciling. I know this wasn't a deliberate theme on Toriyama's part, but it still makes me appreciate the potential that this arc had, even if there are plenty of mistakes in the execution.
Interesting interpretation because I've always viewed this arcs major "accidental theme" about a balance between good and evil. Vegeta feels a need in this arc more than ever to boast about how being a saiyan means being cruel. And how that pride and cruelty is what allows him to be strong. In that same vein even Piccolo starts spouting out about how he's not a good guy and how that makes him better than Goku. But it's only when Piccolo combines with Kami, (a good guy) that he's finally able to go toe to toe with the androids.
In that same vein people are punished for their overwhelming cruelty and good heartedness. Vegeta's cocky and violent attitude leads him to allow Cell to achieve perfection, while Krillin's kind heart is what keeps him from killing Android 18. And in the end it all falls to Gohan, half-saiyan, half-human to stop Cell. At first he's too kind (not wanting to hurt Cell at all because of all the harm he's caused) then too cruel, (wanting to torture Cell rather than finish him off) and it's only when he meets in the middle between his humanity and rage that he's able to beat him.
But that's just my interpretation.
+vgfmak You're right. Not also forgetting the Cell jrs and in the same sense. The theme of villains using their children as tools, to literally making artificial offspring, to abducting youth and turning them into tools and Gohan being used like a tool all would have been very strong, and for Goku to realize he was wrong would have shown a big morality horizon on the hero team to break that. That if considered could have helped if King Cold wasn't such a push over but acted as an authority over Freeza and scolded him for his failures unsupervised on Namek like a strict/Helicopter parent, thus Freeza fighting Trunks while super cocky about it could have been him trying to impress his father. A wasted opportunity. King cold being weak would have been funnier for that if he didn't realize he was much weaker than Freeza because he pushed Freeza more than training himself.
The father son dynamic works well with Vegeta and Trunks. It falters with Goku and Gohan. They don't matter until the end. So there was no time to develop it as much as it could have been.
Good thing we have DBZA to provide that deep lore in their telling.
@Spartan Q77 nah, goku and gohan feels more like a logical conclusion, even if it wasn’t planed out
Difference between Freeza arc Vegeta and Cell arc Vegeta is that the former knew he couldn't defeat Freeza without becoming immortal, so he accepted any advantage he could get. Cell arc Vegeta thought he was the strongest in the universe after turning Super Saiyan so he would have never accepted help fighting against some cyborgs.
Agreed. I know many people hate the way Vegeta's been "dumbed down" (which is a fairly accurate term) in the Androids Arc but, honestly, I think it's quite fitting. Vegeta firstly had to rush to Namek because Frieza was quite a few steps ahead of him, and one mistake could cost him everything. It was clear from the start that he had no choice but to team up with the Earthlings.
Meanwhile, just prior to the Androids Arc, Vegeta achieved the transformation of legend that marked him as the pinnacle of his race AND surpassed Goku. For the first time in his life, NO ONE could challenge him. Why should he be worried about a bunch of "robots"?
It brings out the worst decisions of his, but it works quite well with his character.
@@purerage7963 It's also worth noting that Super Saiyan is shown to affect them on a mental and emotional level. They always become a bit more angry and aggressive when they transform. So it makes sense that transforming would magnify Vegeta's worst characteristics that much more. Since even Goku becomes a bit angrier and vicious, of course Vegeta becomes more arrogant and acts without thinking.
You're just explaining why Vegeta is nowhere near as interesting as he was before.
@@spartanq7781 Because everything he wanted in life finally happened?
@@spartanq7781 it actually makes him more interesting, especially thanks to trunks.
"...leaving them to very pointedly wonder why Dr.Gero went back to cybernetics if he was able to create artificial humans out of nothing. That’s never really explained.."
Cell.
I mean, he’s not really even a thing at this point, not even in Toriyama’s mind as he was writing this I’m sure. But as far as explanations go, that’s the best I got. He created 17 and 18 out of human beings so they could be absorbed by Cell.
That's actually a very intriguing hypothesis. And given that it had been a few weeks since the characters had been introduced, which would probably have been enough time for Torishima to complain to Toriyama again, it is *possible* that that was a setup for Cell. I'm just not used to proper foreshadowing from Toriyama!
I was definitely trying to figure it out from the other way around. #16 was just being introduced as this mysterious unknown entity, and they had already had Dr. Gero make ominous statements about him, so it seemed to me they were trying to use that line to add more intrigue to that character, and that, because of the sudden shift to Cell, it ultimately went unexplored.
MistareFusion | To be fair so have I, until the idea came to me while watching your video. And honestly, it’s probably accurate. Like you say, Toriyama isn’t big on foreshadowing because he doesn’t plan ahead so I doubt it was an actual setup for Cell. It’s most likely one of those things that just happen to fall neatly into place.
Another reason could be that 16 and other hypothetical artificial models can be made stronger to begin with, but 17 and 18, and other hypothetical cybernetic models can increase their power through either absorption or training/battles. 19 and 20 were shown to increase their strength with absorption, and Toriyama recently said that this applies to 17 and 18 but with training (which was then later shown in Super), but who knows if he actually thought that at the time of writing. If so that would mean there would be a trade off between the two designs.
Keep in mind that a full Android wouldn't be able to get stronger, plus it's probably more expensive to create, so it's more cost effective to do cyborg that can get stronger than a hard limit machine even if a full android was a more technologically advanced concept.
I always thought that #16 was dangerous because of the explosive that supposedly would've taken out Cell. Maybe it wouldn't have "destroyed the world" but probably would be bad enough in Gero's book.
Clearly MistareFusion has been in the Room of Spirit and time himself with these upload speeds!
Wait you can binge more than just plot convenient training in there? Good to know.
The hairless trio lmao
Two episodes in two weeks? That feels like two episodes in a row!
IKR? HYPE!!!
Must be dbdecember in june... sounds like a furniture commercial.
Big fax
What? Is MistareFusion one of those part-time youtubers who only uploads when he feels like it?
Acerthorn he has a constant posting schedule but it's not always this series.
Regarding Piccolo's use of telepathy when Dr. Gero was absorbing his energy, Gohan did note that there was a subtle distortion in Ki. Piccolo even points out that Dr. Gero only took a little of his Ki because he was suppressed, so I imagine the Z-fighters were too suppressed to notice any immediate drop in energy.
Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”
Your series is so good that anyone else who is currently making or considering making their own Dragon Ball review series is redundant
This is a great series but it wouldn't make every other DB review series redundant.
Andorchadas I would like people to do this for other series.
Jose Sosa Why not you?
Andorchadas this series has inspired me to do a rewrite of dragon ball where they dont bring up power levels. Im proud of it.
Why? Anybody should say what they feel about a series that they enjoy. Lance's perspective does cut through a lot of the BS that the broader Dragon Ball fandom's full of but he doesn't have to be the only one and that doesn't mean others can't disagree with him.
15:58 Toriyama drew similar shots of characters getting their midsections stretched way out with a punch or kick but the one with 17 and Piccolo is still the top standard
Just now realizing that in this 'soft reboot' , had Toriyama's editor not interveined again , #16 would be the actual final boss with all that build-up
Now I can't stop wondering how that would have looked like
The trivia about he being Gero's son replacement seems like Toriyama trying to cover up his actual plans since Cell took #16's place in the end
I really wish we could've gotten to see Toriyama's original vision for the arc. Going back to an earthly more human looking threat as oppose to another alien like threat would've been a nice change of pace.
It probably would’ve contributed towards saving the integrity of the franchise if anything
It was Toriyama's insistence on comedy and parody first that derailed the franchise, starting with the Buu arc. I am in no way saying the Cell arc did not have major issues, but they were rectifiable issues. All thay goes out the window with another SSJ form, and fusion, and 6 more kais, and unlocking potential with nothing earned... again, and fusion... again, and so on. GT tried to reset the problem with dissastrous results, while DBS embraced the insanity to a mixed degree of success. But again, it was Toriyama at his own admitance. He was given free reign during the Buu arc. Im much more in the camp that his former editor saved what could be saved with the Cell arc. There is nowhere new Toriyama could have gone with just 19 and 20, save a well crafted character piece. But Toriyama is not going to do that.
@@PathBeyondTheDark I guess that's what's so interesting about what people do and don't get out of their media. I think Toriyama's general style is too fast, flippant, and "No big deal" to really deliver on a satisfying time travel premise that also changes up the big bad several times (That also actually switches characters) even if he had a strong editor to reign in his ideas.
Ultimately, I think The Buu Saga is a lot more enjoyable and plays to Toriyama's strengths, while also showcasing a lot of the weaknesses he has, and of course, the pressure of what being a weekly Mangaka does for a man that's been writing for years with no real break in between. For me, The Cell Saga is so bad because the *Characters* do stupid stuff that hurt the audience's ability to root and relate in a big way. The Buu Saga is bad because the Lore and Worldbuilding is so inconsistent that it really hurts suspension of disbelief for those who have been enjoying the story and paying attention. IMO characters aren't actually ruined or done any big damage to, in fact, The Buu Saga uses the characters it does pretty damn well. I guess I disagree fundamentally. Yes, you can rectify The Cell Saga's issues, but The Buu Saga needs no rectification, while The Cell Saga does. For the Plot to even begin, it needs a huge fix, but the only thing needing "Fixing" in The Buu Saga is like minor mixups in Worldbuilding and classic Toriyama inconsistencies/weird choices.
I don't think GT did that poorly to be honest. I'm willing to agree that yes, it's Goku Time, but the *ENTIRE* *SERIES* has Goku invalidate other characters' level of strength starting all the way back in The Red Ribbon Army Saga when Krillin got off-screened by General Blue. GT didn't have disastrous results in its reset in my opinion, at least insofar as how it used its lead character, villains, and Transformations. It added one, built up to said Transformation, paid it off with emotional storytelling, all while tying it deeply to the Lore of the Saiyans. The reason I think Goku Time isn't as egregious as it is in The Frieza Saga, The Cell Saga, and The Buu Saga is because Goku is an active participant in the Plot and doesn't rob anyone. He's there the whole time. But it does have its problems though, for sure.
Super is far less mixed bag and more pale imitation, caricature, character-ruining peepee poopoo. But I'm willing to admit that I'm biased and disagree with Super on principle rather than anything else. Dragon Ball is all about passing time in between major story arcs, so if they can't even get the first lesson right, they don't deserve my watch time. I watched the movies, and even liked Broly and Super Hero, but that's all I'm willing to spare.
Regarding Gero going back to cybernetics when he could create fully functional androids, I like to think that every single one he tried to make was as kind and nice as #8 and #16, proving dangerous to him since he probably wanted to rule the world and all that after killing Goku, so to counter this he decided to use as a base the single most evil thing an old man can think of: TEENAGERS.
(I know #13, #14 and #15 exist in a movie but I rather ignore them)
Yea lets ingore 13 14 and 15. Well until he gets to that.
Dr Gero: "#19, bring me Teenagers with Attitude!"
#19: 🤨
@@johnnygyro2295 Dr. Gero: Ugh, fine. I'll do it myself...
I would have liked the Infinite Energy and Ki Draining to have a teamwork dynamic. The Energy Android can continuously fight, but can't output major power at any given moment. This model can't handle powerful alpha strike enemies, so they rely on their Ki Drainer partner to empty their huge but finite reserves to cancel out that kind of threat. Whenever the Drainer starts to get low on energy, the Energy Android feeds their partner energy from their infinite reserves.
This could have totally worked, considering how smoothly Future Androids #17 and #18 cooperate in a fight.
Genius
SabinStargem At that point why not completely fill up the drainer and than blow everyone up in one shot? It's not like the lack the energy.
12:54 - 13:03
"Remember how I defended what Goku did to Chi Chi as not being domestic abuse? Vegeta demonstrates what _actual_ domestic abuse is. (Sarcasm mode) Yeah, I sure can see why you guys think he's such a better father than Goku."
I'm so tired of that claim. Nothing but Vegeta fanboys saying that shit.
Lance is building up to something with this. I know when Gohan Vs. Cell begins, he's gonna have diatribe all set up.
And you know what Goku did to make up for that mistake? GIVE UP HIS VERY LIFE, TAKING CELL WITH HIM TO KING KAI'S PLANET.
Also, I doubt these fanboys are parents because PARENTS CAN MISJUDGE THEIR CHILDREN. It happens all the fucking time. It's part of being human.
That and while he does kinda treat his family as a tad more like close friends at times, that doesn't mean he's uncaring. Hell, he's often separated from them by circumstances.
I mean, the only instances where Vegeta even SHOWS any sort of desire to parent comes from the Buu Saga.
It’s not HEALTHY parenting, but he at least takes some degree of pride in his son and making sure he’s more powerful than “Kakarot”’s brat.
...and knocking your son unconscious isn’t exactly good parenting either, but it was so that Trunks and Goten wouldn’t be trying to save him, knowing they wouldn’t listen to reason.
He’s a SAIYAN father...not exactly a good one.
Goku’s better as a parent by default, since even if it doesn’t make a lot of sense sometimes, every time he PROPERLY vanishes for a long period of time it’s in the interests of protecting his family in one way or another.
when people say Vegeta is a better father than Goku, they are likely, certainly, most definitely talking about the Buu saga.
“How fun a group battle can be if done well” shots fired DBS 😂😂😂😂
For the sake of equality in roasts, GT used to hold that standard for "terrible groups battles" (fuse and transform, you fools!)
@@purerage7963 The rest of this series has that problem to. It all boils down to one on one fights. The closest they get to teaming up is going by a lineup of who's next.
I'd somewhat agree. With the Cell fight, Goku believed putting faith in Gohan rather than being the sole hope of the planet was the right way to go, and that's why he didn't interfere until Piccolo convinced him of the glaring hole in his master plan. I'm not sure if this is anime-only, but Trunks wanted to interfere in Goku's fight before Vegeta shut him down.
The Buu Arc is where I think 1v1s became a bit of a problem, but even then the main issues were nonsensical character moments that ended up creating problems, as opposed to a lack of teaming up.
@@purerage7963 It doesn't matter the reason given it still is a one on one fight. Bringing that up tells me that you missed my point. The story could have very easily done that. Toriyama simply chose not too. This is fiction. Everything is up to the discretion of the creator. They then write a lore excuse afterwards not before.
@@spartanq7781 It's been a few months since our exchange so this was a little random, but I'm more inclined to agree with you now, though I feel it's still much more frustrating in Super because of other factors, like holding back power to artificially create a sense of tension.
Given the way Gero hyped how dangerous #16 was, I've always sort of wonder in retrospect if maybe he was the prototype for Cell. Not within the narrative, but rather in the same way that #17 and #18 superseded #19 and #20. I wonder if when first introduced, Toriyama had maybe been planning for #16 to eventually be revealed as the true ultimate final enemy of the arc. Especially since in some ways, the two seem to share certain design cues that make #16 look like he could have even fit somewhere in Cell's evolutionary cycle.
Yeah... as the "middle children" of this arc, those three kinda get the shaft, in my opinion. Sure, they're around for longer and are ultimately bigger players in the plot than #19 and #20. But at least those two had a complete story as villains. These three are introduced and immediately sidelined and then largely become plot MacGuffins to be hidden and sought after. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it does diminish what seemingly could have been done with them. And at least #17 and #18 had that new role assigned to them. #16 largely just feels along for the ride, with his mysteries never explored.
I never knew why Toriyama just made it so that in Trunks's original timeline 17 and 18 were called 19 and 20. This timeline obviously has a bunch more changes, so why not have the designations of some androids change as well...
Aaaaand... You said it in the video. Damnit I thought I was being cool.
There is also the problem that Trunks' timeline makes no sense. We're not at that yet. That's a discussion for the Trunks' special.
Damn christmas is way early this year!!
This always brightens up my miserable mondays. Thanks MistareFusion.
'The hairless trio' is so much better than 'The Z fighters'
Anything is better than "Z Fighters," but that's just me. =P
"I bet you never even fought a Z"
Toriyama in every interview: (L a u g h s)
He sure does like to laugh a lot...
A great way to start the morning thank you
You at a funeral?
matt0044 ment Morning
I guess it is probably not *intended* at this point, but I thought the Cell saga makes it clear that #17 and #18 are just component parts for Cell's perfection, so it is later explained why Dr. Gero went back to cybernetics -- it was part of his quest to make a perfect killing machine based on biology. So I wouldn't say that thread is never picked up again.
How?
Bravo. I've been waiting for you for months to get to the final part of this chapter, which is one of my favorite moments of the entire series. I'm glad you felt the same way too. I love how the narrative for the heroes goes completely dark when Number 17 and Number 18 just completely dunk on everybody. It's not only a great action sequence, but being invested into the story for the first time up to that point is a treat. You really do see how big the new threat since everyone is knocked out in what seems like a few seconds. No monologues for the enemies, just ownage.
Even more so I like the immediate following chapter where everyone is licking their wounds, and planning what to do next. It's dark territory for everyone. Goku is still sick, he's being hunted down, Vegeta dashes off as does Piccolo, and Tenshinhan, Trunks, and Kuririn are left to basically deal with what to do next. From this point on up until Goku wakes up the heroes basically have to stay one step ahead of the Androids, and then hunt down Cell at the same time who randomly appears (which I have to admit is very contrived). But yes, I like the squad having to operate in the shadows to a degree instead of just try to defeat the enemy through pure force since that obviously wasn't going to work.
Keep up the good work like you have all these years. I can't wait until your next video, more so than any other time I can remember.
*The Hairless Trio*
On one level, I agree the idea of delinquent super-powerful androids going on a leisurely road trip and getting in comparatively mild hijinks is really fun, but on another level, doesn't it diminish Trunk's warnings a fair bit, at least on a thematic level if not a logical one?
I've always thought it made sense on a level. The androids of Trunks' timeline entered a world where Goku has already died. Therefore they have unlimited power and no goal. I can easily see them quickly getting bored and just trashing everything for the fun of it. Giving them this lackadaisical thuggish kind of attitude fits well on the characters, making the horror of Trunks' future seem even more tragic because you realize the villains aren't EVIL. They're bored.
Oh, good point.
Plus, Future Trunks noted that these Androids weren't ruthless killers like their future counterparts. He was dealing with a weaker, but much more vile threat in his timeline.
Let's say this time Toriyama decided to just go with 16, 17 and 18 as the main villains. What would have happened? I would guess that 16 would show his full power after meeting Goku. Goku would be overwhelmed and defeated, but that would activate a flaw in 16 that made him go completely berserk. This would force 17 and 18 to team up with the remaining characters to defeat 16. And the arc would end with a tear jerker of 16 coming to his senses just before he dies and thanking everyone for stopping him and begging 17 and 18 to protect nature in his place.
Part of me likes the Cell Saga as is but another part of me would like how an Android Saga would be like and this piques my interest.
I've always thought that 16, 17, and 18 finally get to where Goku is. Piccolo fights 17 to a stalemate like he does in the series while 16 goes in to kill Goku. He has Goku on the ropes but Gohan defends his father, claiming that he can't imagine someone who was so kind before (in this version Gohan would've met or seen 16 earlier) could attack someone when they're in bad health. 16 resonates with Gohan's kindness and agrees to postpone killing Goku until a later date. The arc concludes in a way similar to the 23rd Budokai arc where the main villain's are still around, and are still evil but are not actively attacking the main cast until it's more convenient for them. Then after that, you introduce cell and he becomes a mutual enemy for the two groups which ends up bringing them together. It would also give Gohan a reason to go berserk at 16's death.
I really love these videos. I'm commenting only now because I discovered this channel only a few weeks ago and pretty much watch all of the DBD vids in binge. I love DB and I love story telling. I don't have any pretentions of knowing what makes a story good but I know what I like.
Your style is great. Entertaining and easy to follow. Not obnoxious or patronizing sounding. I like the editing and the overal quality is great in my opinion. I'm kind of surprised this channel isn't bigger.
Thank you so much. You're very kind. I hope you continue to enjoy the videos on this channel!
I watch your new videos at least twice a day when they drop. Keep it up man I wish you released them more frequently!
The alterations to the timeline would have made more sense if Dr. Gero heard the conversation between Trunks and Goku with his spy tracker. Hearing that #17 and #18 would kill him, he didn't activate them and instead created #19 and turned himself into a cyborg. But no, it's established earlier that Gero stopped collecting data after the battle between Goku and Vegeta.
But didn't he collect Freeza's cells? That's way after Vegeta and Goku's battle
But didn't he collect Freeza's cells? That's way after Vegeta and Goku's battle
Man I just finished part 5 and then this notification came up well time to DBD it up!
As much as you are right i cant stop loving every episode in this arc its my favourite and it will always be...but keep up with these vids bro i fuckin love em
When I found your channel I binged watched your videos. No lie. your senpai videos were good too
13:07 wait a second why does vegeta have base eyebrows but super saiyan hair
Also I agree with that sarcastic remark about people calling Vegeta a better father, going ahead in the timeline, Majin Vegeta was genuinely terrible, risking the lives of everyone on the planet, including his son for a fight "just cause". And he has no qualms about going off to train with Whis.
Vegeta fanboys are blind to his flaws, that's why.
I mean, Goku does the exact same thing "I probably could have killed him but I wanted to give the kids a chance", with the difference that Vegeta was present and when kid trunks wanted to go to the park as a reward he does, so he's also being an actual father. By the way who was that abandoned his family to train a kid in Mongolia or something? And who was that initially refused to go anywhere because his daughter was going to be born? See the point is not that he is the perfect father or even a good one, but he *is* leagues and bounds better than Goku, especially considering he had became "good" just recently.
Goku being a bad dad doesn't make Vegeta any better, the only good dads from the main cast are Gohan and Krillin
rhonda howard Wow somebody is cranky and need his bottle... By all means report me, I wanna see the algorithm making fun of you for how stupid the reason is :).
@@alfiobonanno5100 Goku's children were grown by then. They also at anytime can fly to visit him. Goku could just teleport to them. There's also the fact that both his sons don't care for fighting. So he doesn't try to force them. That is nowhere near as bad as what Vegeta had done earlier on in that same arc.
I wasn’t expecting another episode so soon. Not complaining, though.
A day with a dbd upload is a day worth living
I think you took notes each time you watched DBZA haha, nice video
Dragon Ball Z Abrigded post (non interested - just skip it because it has little actual facts and more assumptions)
I think 16 being based on Gero's son work well only on TFS version. Originally it was just an afterthought to connect dots. TeamFourStar changed this and that to make completly new theme of this arc. The key word is "Destiny". So in the manga Doctor Gero is trying to get revenge because of Over the Top Red Ribbon Army. In TFS-verse Goku do kill Gero's son. What's more the same Son doesn't feel like a bad guy. This is my interpretation mostly but taking filler from the anime actions seem more complex. Doctor Flappe was a good person, what's more Gero's Son (he should have a name... I'll call him Wolfram) calls him uncle. I was never in the army but I'm pretty sure you don't call higher ups with family names. So Wolfram is very close to his father (obviously) and to Flappe(a good guy). Obviously they don't know what was Red's wish so it could be possible the scientists were good people working for bad guys. This is huge opening for fanfics as why would scientist take his son to join the army? My guess is Gero noticed how evil the army is so to save his own son he made a deal with Red to spare their lifes and live in highly fortified Red Ribbon Fortess. Red agreed, and then put more lies into the Wolframs head... and gave him gun to his hand. Gero saw what he'd done and broken decided to step away from Wolframs life. Then Goku attack happend and after Wolfram's death broken Gero went mad. He builds an android to just for image of his son defeating Son Goku. And even after giving Android 16 Wolframs personality he still put bomb into his body. And this is the part when "Destiny" comes in. Android 16, Gohan, Trunks all have different fathers. Trunks as fatherless figure travels into the past to meet monster called Vegeta. Gohan takes place of strongest defender of the Earth, Android 16 is just a puppet for Gero's revenge. It all makes sense; time travel aspect, changing the future... it is all story about generational gap. Kids are growing up to take their parents place. Gohan is broken in his fight against Cell and death of Android 16 represents choosing the Destiny. Programmed robot refused to execute his main order and Gohan accepted who he is and becomes person Future Gohan wished to be...
Just a thought... probably I put too little thought into it.
I noticed that saiyan prince thing too, what a mistake toriyama made
@Sun Wentai 90 This is still a huge assumption on 17's part. It only means he was the strongest. It was never outwardly stated until on Namek. It was Toriyama forgetting that and wanting too add that line for 17. This is fiction there not real characters. Real life idealism doesn't apply. It's all at the discretion of the creator i.e. Toriyama in this case.
@Sun Wentai 90 The fact that it is a small things makes it stand out. It makes me question it. If it was something elaborate then I can see him forgetting and making that mistake.
I think keeping them the same number in both timelines makes it easier to discuss. That way there's no confusion like '"I don't remember the fat clown robot being in the future. Oh, wait, you mean the other 19."
OH BOY RIGHT BEFORE TO BED! LETS GOOOOOO!
Kaiser Ha! Same here.
Me too!
Haha that’s 2:00 for me
Watching this before bed is the best
Rewatchin rn and i gotta say youve built up a lot of goodwill with me, but whenever you use the term "gooey" i think about chiaotsu-ing myself
The hairless trio! That got me, tbh. Good one.
18 breaking vegeta´s arm is my favorite moment on all the series...
When you said a new special episode I thought you were talking about doing one on The Super Android 13 movie LOL
Oooooh you implied Vegeta wasn't a good father. The fan boys and girls will rip your head off for that one. (Even though Goku is the better dad)
WolfFistProductions Vegeta is indeed not a good father untill the end of the story, but Goku is a shitty one from the sayan saga onwards, and overall they did more or less the same dickish thing just with Goku being absent and getting slightly worse and Vegeta staying and getting progressively better, remember, you don't need to step forward to be ahead, as long as the other else takes one backwards, you still are.
For those that for whatever reason believe Goku's parenting was so terrible, I would like to hear your honest reasons. Because I got a feeling, chances are likely I'm going to debunk it.
Shae Souza I think it's mainly due to instances of him leaving his family behind.
The 7 year gap after Cell.
And the 5 year gap between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT.
Wonder- Games I understand that, what most (not everybody) may have misunderstood in realizing this though, is the reason why Goku went away for 7 years. He didn’t want to be the reason, why everyone was always in trouble (this included his family), and he honestly felt that as long as he was alive, that would have been the case. The situation with Uub, I could say this: By this time, Goku had a son in his late 20’s with a family of his own, and another one that’s in his late teens. Uub is a 10-year old prodigy, that Goku saw both as a challenge and as his successor (something that was meant for Gohan, but unfortunately it didn’t work out). That time Goku’s decision to leave was sudden, but a few among his friends and family understood why he did. -Some accepted him leaving, while others had difficulty adjusting. This time around, he was able to promise visiting them.
Ohoho you turned into a such a sadist by the end.
I figured Gero's artificial creations had flaws like 8er being too nice and 16 being....kind of nice so he tried cybernetics with two teenage deli-13:03 Σ(゜ロ゜) *_gasp_* Oh you've done it now! GET YA PITCHFORKS OUT FANGIRLS ITS TIME TO FIGHT!!!
That's it! I'm marathoning again! :D
Not many in the western fandom seem to care about the “reboot” due to how, well, the Anime made it work and to many who grew up on it, that’s pretty much all that matters.
Not that it makes your points any less valid but I feel you neglected to address it. Unless you’re saving a big rant for DBD TV. In which case, I can be patient.
Not many in the western fandom seem to care about... Anything, really, just power levels and transformations.
Unlike the Japanese fandom, where people care more about things other than power, and they discuss other topics lik- PFFF HAHAHA! Sorry, I can't keep that up.
@Pleinair92 Honestly, considering Japan knows the series much more as Dragon Ball colloquially and didn't start with Z, it wouldn't shock me if they did care about other aspects of the series outside of raw power and the biggest beatdowns compared to international fanbases. I might be generalizing but it often seems that way from what I've gleamed.
matt0044 It's mostly America really, a big chunk of other countries Tris didn't make Goku super man and started with Dragonball, in fact, I don't know of any other place where they started with z.
The chaotic nature of the early part of this arc separates it from the rest of the manga, giving it a unique identity. Up until just after the Cell reveal its extremely captivating. Once Cell blurts out his entire plan, all the mystery and intrigue is sucked out the window. From my perspective, Toriyamas old editor did the story a favor. I can imagine how monotonous an arc with just 19 and 20 would have been. Where could the story have gone that would make it feel fresh? Likewise, its once his former editor was satisfied and Toriyama could do whatever again, where the story turns into villain of the week again, only executed more poorly.
Its a miracle that Toriyama builds Gohans arc from introduction to the for all intents and purposes finale later in this arc. Because it certainly is not his MO to have and much less payoff long standing character arcs. That one of the highlights, or THE highlight, of DB comes in this mostly boring slog (which I recognized years later when I couldnt get through DB Kai) is astounding.
I love the points you make on this channel and you always get me to think
but I think when Vegeta said he didn’t want anyone’s help here versus Namic is because he’s tired of being pitied by people
Especially on namek
He doesn’t like to think of namek
Sure he wiped out a majority of his bullies- but he was scared shitless of frieza the entire time- now he has some he can’t sense and he wants to flex
I’m sure if 18 frieza’d him through the heart he’d be beggin for a bean lmao
Just on my break to, convivent timing :D
Best way to write this arc:
1. Trunks comes from the future, gives his warning, and explains that Bulma has a kid with Vegeta because she felt under appreciated by Yamcha after his resurrection with the Namekian Dragon Balls. Explain that Yamcha didn’t do anything wrong, but he felt like they could just pick up where they left off and didn’t realize how Bulma’s time on Namek had changed her. Say that Yamcha’s death affected her to want to be committed to the relationship, but the fact that Yamcha never seemed to do anything that made her feel gratification for organizing the Namek trip led her to become interested with Vegeta as he depended on her help to become a Super Saiyan while his pride was wounded and at his most vulnerable. This allowed her to see the core of Vegeta for who he was and his reliance on her help made her feel appreciated which led to the breakup and Trunks’ birth.
2. Trunks DOESN’T KNOW WHO BUILT THE ANDROIDS thus explaining why they can’t prevent their creation. He can know that it’s related to the Red Ribbon Army, but that’s it. Even if you wanted to have the heroes try to use the Dragon Balls, you can explain that it’s impossible to prevent the creation of Androids they know nothing about them or their creator. You could also say that Kami refuses to let them use the Dragon Balls to destroy life if you want to go a different route.
3. Explain that Goku’s training for the Androids is what delayed his virus and that the Androids became stronger because of Trunks’ defeat of Frieza leading to data from Trunks being observed or even have some sort of reference to Dr. Gero being a helper to Bulma as she tries to find some tech to help them train.
3:35. Would not be surprised at all if Toriyama took the advice from his peer and just changed it because that’s more common then you think. There was an interview with Fire Force Mangala and the Fairy Tail Mangaka and The later made a request for a two or three changes to the story in a very casual interview. And in the very next volume, he did all of the things he requested, some had arguably big effects on the story, and some didn’t make sense but were done anyway.
I think you made great points about how important an editor is. You would know this better than me but I heard the Majin Buu arc was an example of Toriyama having unlimited creative control and I thought that was by far the weakest arc of Z. Also look no further than the Star Wars PRequels to see the negative affect of one person having total creative control with all yes man.
I love the Gero's son reveal and I think it's extremely heart-warming that for all the evil Gero did, he ended up dying by trying to save (a robot built in the image of) his son... Yet it's abundantly clear Toriyama didn't originally intend any of this and was just going to do something else with #16 but discarded the idea completely. Hell, the first time I was getting acquainted with the series I assumed he was a Cell prototype or something, since I already knew Cell was going to show up and #16 was green and hyped up by Gero as this awesome threat.
Trunks timeline #1: Android 19 and 20 appear and kill the Z warriors. Trunks grows up goes back in time to warn everybody. He returns and gets killed.
Trunks timeline #2: Future Trunks warns the Z warriors about 19 and 20 and they prepare for it. Android 19 and 20 appear and are defeated but before 20 dies, he releases 17 and 18 which kill the Z warriors. Trunks grows up and goes back in time to help defeat 17 and 18 but arrives just before 17 and 18 are activated and so he sees android 20 who he never knew about because he was a baby.
Then there's that other timeline where Cell kills Trunks... I don't have the mental capacity to work that one in right now lol.
I doubt Toriyama thought all this through, but that's my headcannon to fill the plothole.
I always figured that the difference timelines was that in Trunks' timeline, Gero decided to release #17 and #18, so they could work with himself and #19. Strength in numbers and all that. However, #17 and #18 killed the latter two in the lab, and then went on their rampage. Since #16 never woke up, he wasn't around to be their moral compass. This caused Trunks and Bulma to never know about #16, #19 and #20 until later.
Meanwhile, in the "main" timeline, Gero decided that #19 and himself would be enough to handle Goku and pals. When that was proven to not be the case, he released #17 and #18 out of desperation. They then kill him and wake up #16.
It's not a flawless explanation I'll admit, and mostly works for the anime where Trunks said two androids without giving any numbers. Also, in hindsight, maybe there should've just been two timelines in this saga for streamlining...
Whether it was by his former editors suggestion or not. It was a good idea of Toriyama to change 19 and Gero to 17 and 18. The twins have more of spunk to them that made them stand out as Antagonist.
I don’t know if you still read comments from this long ago, but I think I know why #16 was “dangerous”.
Although he was intent on killing Goku, he still loved everything else.
So presumably, had 16 killed Goku and survived, 16 would have chilled. However, the other androids might have gotten bored and started destroying everything.
16 would not have liked that and would have stopped them himself.
Just like 16 tried to stop Cell.
This is around the point where I started watching Dragon Ball all the way back in 2011 and even now having seen the rest of the series, the introduction to 17 and 18 is probably one of my favorite parts of the series.
I started watching in 2000, but it was around the point of introducing 19 and 20! Good red herrings!
7:59 Maybe Piccolo's telepathy was used as an emergency or last resort
This DBD was incredibly crisp, almost felt too short even. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
HOLY SHIT THAT WAS QUICK I LOVE YOU MISTARE FUSION!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s probably my favorite #18 outfit as well. It’s close, between that and her 25th Tenkaichi Budokai outfit.
Just realized this would not be the last time he would punch a child nor is it the first time he's done this.
7:45 if Piccalo raised his ki wound Dr. Gero absorb his energy faster
13:29 my head cannon is that 16 is mechanical so he couldn’t be absorbed by Cell. He is Gero’s baby boy after all
But if Toriahima wasn't the editor at the time: why would Toriyama be changing who the main antagonists were so haphazardly? Plus why would he care?
Thank you MistareFusion
Krillen for some reason after giving Piccolo and Tien senzu beans they lose them? Since Krillen has them again. Once everyone gotten beaten to a pulp by the artificial humans. Senzu beans are so inconsistent particularly in this arc.
I think unless Toriyama already had thought of Cell he didn't just have 19 and 20 change shape (19 getting buffer and Gero becoming younger) as they absorbed loads of energy if he wanted to comply to Torishima's criticism. I know it's Frieza's gimmick but it's not like Cell didn't end up having a similar gimmick. Other thing is that maybe he thought about making a twist for the weekly audience but ended up hurting the plot overall.
"Dr Gero retconned his way into Commander Red's position?" I actually think, in a retelling, Gero would work better in Officer Black's spot. His son Gebo/Gold being killed, possibly by Goku unintentionally, *and* finding out Commander Red was going to waste the wish to become taller, would be the *perfect* explanation for why he went crazy.
Also, damn, Super Saiyans with red eyes look just as cool as ones with teal eyes.
Hot take I just thought of: what if the Trunks we initially see is from a timeline where number 19 and 20 ruled over fhe Earth and fulfilled Gero’s vision? The new Trunks we see from the fight with 19 and 20 on is from a new timeline where 17 and 18 won. It breaks the idea that Trunks saw them before but it’s been a while since I read Dragon Ball and I don’t know if it’s that drastic?
Wow that was quick
Everything after Trunks' appearance is a soft reboot. A very well-done one too, might I add.
In the anime for some reason Vegeta goes from Super Sayain back to normal. While searching for Gero's lab. Just thought I bring it up.
I know this video is old but 8:50 IT DID COME BACK IN SUPER WITH MORO! you totally called it!!!!
Pretty sure they were referring to Cell.
Like most of american fans of Dragonball I saw Z before I realized there was a whole beginning of the series and when I finally watched Dragonball I remember keeping a very close eye in the red ribbon arc for Dr.gero but never saw him. Was I the only one?
I'm curious: was Android #20 always going to be Dr. Gero? If #19 and #20 were the main villains, would that be kept hidden until late in the arc?
Although in the original printing trunks warns them of no 19 and 20 initially, do you agree if he simply didn't mention the number of the androids it would make this transition work pretty seamlessly? I think changing the smallest details can greatly reduce the complaints people have on this arc (the reason for not using the dragon balls, relationship between Gero and no 16, explanation of cell's timeline...). I honestly feel the cell arc's structure and transitions work really well overall despite it's changing of villains. Maybe because of the connections between the different villains. It helps create the unpredictable nature all-throughout the arc constantly getting surprised by what happens next which fits with the premise- unknowing the effects of changing the future shown by the butterfly effect and the different turns and outcomes it has on the timelines. Great video btw!
The Anime omitted the names of the Androids when Trunks first brings them up.
Lost myself at the "hairless trio"
I may complain often about the constant changes and plotting in the cell saga, but 16,17 and 18 are honestly worth it. I'm not sure how interesting Dr. Gero and Android 19 would have been if they were the villains of this arc, but just comparing introductions, 17 and 18 blow them out of the water. Their unemotive faces as they pound powerful warriors like Vegeta into the ground, their chill attitude towards achieving their goal and overwhelming power is the perfect match of interesting and dramatic that I find Toriyama quite good at. At this point all the fighters are battle hardened, many of them have experienced death and watched their friends die. They approach combat with at least a somewhat serious attitude. But 17 and 18 are pretty comperable to Yamcha and Tenshinhan during their introductory arcs. Powerful and cocky. But unlike them, they have Insane amounts of power to back that up. Power that as far as we can tell they didn't need to work nearly as hard for, if at all. For the dragonball series these two are a pretty interesting group of villains that, despite how long the series is, they feel unique and iconic just in their characterization. And I'm not sure if Dr. Gero and 19 would've been able to achieve QUITE that same effect.
Is it possible the future changed between Trunks saying 19 and 20 and saying 17 and 18? As in, they changed Trunks's history when they killed off 19 and 20?
That to me is the obvious way to make it work. When you're dealing with time travel, you have a built in ability for retcons.
While we haven't gotten to the point of the story where this is established, the only way that could be the case is if this is not the same Trunks that visited them the first time. Remember, it's ultimately held that you CANNOT change history in Dragon Ball. Traveling to the past and altering events causes the timeline to split.
No Trunks timeline is separate. The only effect the "main" timeline has on Trunk's is through him going back to his knowing about Cell and being strong enough to kill all of the "androids".
I’m surprised you never pointed out the poor random truck driver Vegeta blasts into pieces during his fight with 18
Mistarefusion have you ever thought about doing dragonball dissection for dragonball super manga/anime just wondering?
11:10 Obviously No. 16 wasn't activated in the future timeline so the heros didn't have to worry about him. No.17 and 18 probably found something else to argue with Dr. Gero about and killed him.
Does anyone else think that the fact of unlike with 16 and 19 that are mechanical and fully made 17 and 18 are cyborgs meaning humans with robot parts, though we don't see the outright robotic parts when compared to Cyborg of Teen Titans but this raises the question of HOW did Dr Gero get them , was he stalking them, why'd he choose them , how long did he abduct them, and what about their parents , and do 17 and 18 remember their names and their past before becoming cyborgs as their still called by there numbers after this arc ?
Could you say that toriyama's background on 16 could be used to explain geros hatred for goku? That 17-20 were created to reassert the dominance the red ribbon army had in their hey day but 16 and to a lesser extent 17 and 18 were programmed to fulfill a more carnal desire for personal revenge?
Vegeta is my favorite character, but damn... He comes real close to irredeemable with the way he treats Trunks in these chapters...
10:15 When creating an alien race we are always the baseline, I think you said it yourself in another episode. So we always think "humans but with horns" "humans but no emotions" and in this case I think Toriyama is doing the same with Vegeta and sayans: humans but with no morals and... It's just SO stupid. It doesn't matter how strong you are as a race if you kill someone for bothering you then you can be killed for bothering someone else. Morality is an evolutionary advantage and it's so dumb that somehow saiyan survived and thrived by promoting a society in which you can kill and be killed for any reason. So dumb.
On the topic of why Dr. Gero went back to cyborgs after creating a successful Android: I always thought that he wanted to “perfect” the Android work to remake his son (Android 16 if modeled after) and once he had his son he didn’t want to “lose his son again”, and that’s why he went back to cyborgs. At least that’s My head canon.
😊
9:07 Foreshadowing
GT super Android 17
“The hairless trio” 😂
This must be the point where Toriyama had Cell in mind. That's why Gero went back to cybernetics. Remember, Cell couldn't absorb 16 since he's fully mechanical. 17 and 18 he could since they were once human.
How?
Best birthday gift.
Happy birthday!
Thank you, Lance! It's been about... more than a year since someone on Twitter offhandedly posted the DBD playlist, and clicking on it was a great decision. This is truly a dissection of a series, and has made me rethink my approach on how to make criticisms on media as a whole, not to mention allowing me to view things that I do enjoy, such as the Cell Arc, with more scrutiny. Again, thank you for your content!