There is no basis for law or morality outside of The Christian God. So not only is Christian morality the most beneficial for society (as history has shown), but it is the only basis and only form of morality. For even the gentiles, who do not have the law, do what the law requires, they are a law unto themselves. What law is Paul referencing? God’s law of course.
I had our deacon in my church say that you cannot legislate morality to me - word for word. I didn't say anything at that time but it is obvious that he didn't think it through. I've emailed enough folks in the church, that particular rhetoric, showing how ignorant and false such a saying it is on its face.
“It’s attractive to Christians because there’s not a lot of conflict that comes from that” Josh, I believe that statement is nailing the root issue behind the resistance to CN. The last church we were members of has a culture very much like this. There is a culture in the church that prioritizes peace and tranquility at the expense of holiness and sanctification.
Two thumbs up 👍🏻 👍🏻 on the facial hair, Josh. You’re a natural. This was very helpful and a great conversation by all three of you keep up the great work.
25:39 When you’re recording or streaming, you’ll see a little green video camera icon in top menu bar for your Mac. Click on it and you’ll see an option to turn off “Reactions”. No more fireworks or thumbs ups 👍
Two things: 1) I appreciate the thoughtful critique. Very helpful to those looking to work through these things consistently. 2) The concepts of top-down and bottom-up were briefly mentioned at the outset. I think it's fair to say that there are vocal members of the camp who, while also acknowledging the need of Spirit-wrought bottom-up regeneration, spend a disproportionate amount of their media ministry discussing top-down measures needed to achieve what they propose ought to be achieved. The sense one takes is that top-down exercises of power are the real gem of Christian influence, and true, born-again worship of Christ is a happy byproduct along for the ride.
@@MattyMattEMan The disproportionate time observation with Webbon seems accurate, but an alternative explanation may be that top-down measures are the controversial and neglected means of preventing many gross societal ills, and hence receive more treatment from him.
GOOD GRIEF!! When John MacArthur said we lose down here, If you actually listen to the whole sermon he gave In context, he was saying, our victory isn't in this fallen world that God is going to one day melt with fervent heat, ( ill let someone else look up the scripture on this dictrine), but that the church is not going to Christianize the world and then Jesus returns. Thats theonomy/ post millenial nonsense. Our victory, our ultimte WIN is when Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom on earth. Which IS biblical. When you don't read the bible with a consistent literal grammatical hermeneutic, you get all kinds of esoteric nonsense, that no one can agree on.
So what he's saying is that we lose down here; that Christian efforts to carry forth the great commission in the power of the Spirit will ultimately fail to Christianize the world?
I'm a Christian nationalist according to the scripture. I'm not a nationalist according to liberals. This is God's universe He owns this world, what do you think God would use I mean what law will he use to rule?
23:22 that’s funny…the Lord Jesus Christ says that the kingdom of (from) heaven IS the whole world. Matthew 13:10-14; 13:24; 13:36-38. Matthew 28:18. “All authority has been given to Me in heaven, and on earth.” -Christ Jesus
The problem is Original Sin, Genesis 3, you shall be as god's. Christians attempting to hold on to some form of their autonomy, at least some, instead of bowing to HIM who they profess to be their Lord, Kyros, but trying to hold on to a corner of their hearts. I have come to the conclusion that Baptists are a major part of the problem. I belong to a Presbyterian church, where I may be the only one raised in a real, Reformed church, the rest are either repentant Baptists, or not fully repentant Baptists.😢 The Founders wanted to avoid a National Church (religion). A big problem today is the error of presentism, look it up. It is in the dictionary. As I have said, How can you profess to love God if you hate HIS Law?
I'm OK with Christian nationalism because Christians have the same right to participate in the political process and pursue views and interests as anyone else. However John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight ... but now is my kingdom not from hence" still applies.
I really don’t understand the discord among brothers; While I am not a rapture believer, calling it “loser theology” (even if he said me lose down here) is regrettable. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, it implies that those who believe in the rapture are losers. Also, why use the word heretic at all when talking about Owen? “I’m not saying Owen is a heretic or anything like that”, if you think Owen is a brother in Christ (and I believe you do), you can start your statement by calling him a brother in Christ you’re in disagreement with, instead of using the word heretic at all. If you were dating or married to a younger woman, and someone said, I’m not calling him a pedophile but”. we should do better when having disagreements with our brothers in Christ, we get enough darts from the world and the evil one, God bless you
_"Also, why use the word heretic at all when talking about Owen? “I’m not saying Owen is a heretic or anything like that”"_ I haven't seen the video so I don't want to comment on the rest of your comment, and I don't know the context of this statement, so forgive me if I am way off base, but have you seen modern "Christian" discourse? People simply call any belief they disagree with "heresy" and the people teaching it "heretic" without thinking. It could be the majority view of the Church for 2000 years but their independent church never taught it so they are hearing it for the first time, it could be that the accuser believes one or more actual heresies that the church has condemned, yet the first tool in the toolbox is to accuse. Frankly, it's too often the Christian version of the left's "racism" accusation, and seems to mean something similar: "I disagree with you but am unable to defend my view, so I'm going to call names instead." There will be Christians in the audience who have never been taught to disagree gracefully or that it is ok to disagree on some doctrines and still regard each other as brother's in Christ. They treat everything they believe as if it is a first tier doctrine and any disagreement should result in excommunication and condemnation to hell. That's just a sad reality of our modern culture, so I can guess why making it clear that they do not think this way and that modeling how Christians are to disagree gracefully is important.
You guys are way off base. Start up Christian schools. We are called to teach, baptize, and make disciples. If we focus on these things we will change the culture. Your tone is whiney
Your comment would have been much more constructive if it had identified where and how they are "way off base." Perhaps you should try that. And when you do, do so in recognition of the fact that the Great Commission is to disciple *all the nations.*
@@danbrown586 Exactly. And don't you just love it when people only show up for the purpose of criticism or condemnation? These types are not trying to have a civil discussion as Christians ought to be able to do, and lay out their Biblical case as to why they don't agree. They are cowards in my opinion.
Nations = ethnos meaning race or ethnicity, not nation in the sense of a political juristiction. Let go baptise China. Good idea. Maybe, instead we should make disciples and baptise individuals who believe and are Chinese. I'm reading the black on the page. You guys are getting too heavily invested in the white. The black is rock, the white is sand. I see your frustration. I understand it. However, we are where we are because of our own laziness, carelessness, and lack of faith. The lefties outdid us. Teaching changes culture. We are called to teach. We have neglected this call. Our gardens are fruitless and weed infested as a result.
A Christian never loses! Even in fierce persecution and bloodshed martyrdom, he is victorious in Christ. His witness and testimony stand up under all conditions. The faithful Christian is hated by all who know not the Savior in spirit and truth. He is hated by false brethren, Professed Christian heretics, perhaps his family, and by the world. Perseverance through it all is promised to those who love and obey their Lord without compromise. This is the decreed lot of all God's elect! The power of God unto salvation was wrought through what appeared to be the weakness of the cross. And it I that hidden power which enables all his followers to endure all things as they are in the world but not of the world. This is a divine and gospel plan of absolute victory over death Satan and the unbelieving world the Christian finds himself in. Our hope is in the next phase of God's Sovereign plan of redemption when Jesus returns to judge this world and all of his enemies, including the false denominations who profess his name. Jesus did not save national Israel, and neither will he save any other nation from its sin and wickedness. Revival and revivalism notwithstanding. Revelation 5:9,10. A people redeemed and sanctified out of every people group whose names have been written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The false faiths and apostacy that surround the true church will not be overcome, and that is exactly what God has ordained. But the elect will be saved absolutely! The apostolic church saw no victories in earthly terms, but they saw and experienced the power of God through the foolishness of preaching as the Lord built his church in the midst of great opposition and hatred. Here is the victory and triumph of an earnest and genuine saving faith. Here is where our expectations truly lie. Faithfulness without compromise until the end of the ages. Matthew16:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 3:21. Revelation 5:9,10.
All law is imposed morality. Christian morality is the most beneficial to society.
There is no basis for law or morality outside of The Christian God. So not only is Christian morality the most beneficial for society (as history has shown), but it is the only basis and only form of morality. For even the gentiles, who do not have the law, do what the law requires, they are a law unto themselves. What law is Paul referencing? God’s law of course.
@@ranbran2948 💯
It really is that simple. That’s what boggles my mind with guys like Owen.
I had our deacon in my church say that you cannot legislate morality to me - word for word. I didn't say anything at that time but it is obvious that he didn't think it through. I've emailed enough folks in the church, that particular rhetoric, showing how ignorant and false such a saying it is on its face.
Absolutely phenomenal, very grateful for this.
“It’s attractive to Christians because there’s not a lot of conflict that comes from that”
Josh, I believe that statement is nailing the root issue behind the resistance to CN.
The last church we were members of has a culture very much like this. There is a culture in the church that prioritizes peace and tranquility at the expense of holiness and sanctification.
Strongly agree.
Commenting for the algorithm.
Keep up the good work guys.
Two thumbs up 👍🏻 👍🏻 on the facial hair, Josh. You’re a natural.
This was very helpful and a great conversation by all three of you keep up the great work.
Great conversation!
Thumbs up for great content!
He would have hated the Pilgrims and Puritans!!! 😂
I was hoping to hear a critique of his statement. Thank you.
25:39 When you’re recording or streaming, you’ll see a little green video camera icon in top menu bar for your Mac. Click on it and you’ll see an option to turn off “Reactions”. No more fireworks or thumbs ups 👍
Two things:
1) I appreciate the thoughtful critique. Very helpful to those looking to work through these things consistently.
2) The concepts of top-down and bottom-up were briefly mentioned at the outset. I think it's fair to say that there are vocal members of the camp who, while also acknowledging the need of Spirit-wrought bottom-up regeneration, spend a disproportionate amount of their media ministry discussing top-down measures needed to achieve what they propose ought to be achieved. The sense one takes is that top-down exercises of power are the real gem of Christian influence, and true, born-again worship of Christ is a happy byproduct along for the ride.
I would push back and say the Moscow guys in particular, are very bottom up oriented
@@eschatology_matters I was referring to Webbon for the most part.
Thanks for clarifying, and for watching!
@@MattyMattEMan The disproportionate time observation with Webbon seems accurate, but an alternative explanation may be that top-down measures are the controversial and neglected means of preventing many gross societal ills, and hence receive more treatment from him.
GOOD GRIEF!! When John MacArthur said we lose down here, If you actually listen to the whole sermon he gave In context, he was saying, our victory isn't in this fallen world that God is going to one day melt with fervent heat, ( ill let someone else look up the scripture on this dictrine), but that the church is not going to Christianize the world and then Jesus returns. Thats theonomy/ post millenial nonsense. Our victory, our ultimte WIN is when Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom on earth. Which IS biblical.
When you don't read the bible with a consistent literal grammatical hermeneutic, you get all kinds of esoteric nonsense, that no one can agree on.
So what he's saying is that we lose down here; that Christian efforts to carry forth the great commission in the power of the Spirit will ultimately fail to Christianize the world?
Yes, please tell us what the telos is that you are working towards.
Owen is still so confused
I'm a Christian nationalist according to the scripture. I'm not a nationalist according to liberals. This is God's universe He owns this world, what do you think God would use I mean what law will he use to rule?
Lol Many Charismatics teach 7 mountains and Premillennialism together.
23:22 that’s funny…the Lord Jesus Christ says that the kingdom of (from) heaven IS the whole world. Matthew 13:10-14; 13:24; 13:36-38.
Matthew 28:18. “All authority has been given to Me in heaven, and on earth.” -Christ Jesus
Found some more books on religion and politics if anyone is interested
The problem is Original Sin, Genesis 3, you shall be as god's. Christians attempting to hold on to some form of their autonomy, at least some, instead of bowing to HIM who they profess to be their Lord, Kyros, but trying to hold on to a corner of their hearts. I have come to the conclusion that Baptists are a major part of the problem. I belong to a Presbyterian church, where I may be the only one raised in a real, Reformed church, the rest are either repentant Baptists, or not fully repentant Baptists.😢
The Founders wanted to avoid a National Church (religion). A big problem today is the error of presentism, look it up. It is in the dictionary.
As I have said, How can you profess to love God if you hate HIS Law?
I'm OK with Christian nationalism because Christians have the same right to participate in the political process and pursue views and interests as anyone else. However John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight ... but now is my kingdom not from hence" still applies.
I really don’t understand the discord among brothers; While I am not a rapture believer, calling it “loser theology” (even if he said me lose down here) is regrettable. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, it implies that those who believe in the rapture are losers. Also, why use the word heretic at all when talking about Owen? “I’m not saying Owen is a heretic or anything like that”, if you think Owen is a brother in Christ (and I believe you do), you can start your statement by calling him a brother in Christ you’re in disagreement with, instead of using the word heretic at all. If you were dating or married to a younger woman, and someone said, I’m not calling him a pedophile but”. we should do better when having disagreements with our brothers in Christ, we get enough darts from the world and the evil one, God bless you
_"Also, why use the word heretic at all when talking about Owen? “I’m not saying Owen is a heretic or anything like that”"_
I haven't seen the video so I don't want to comment on the rest of your comment, and I don't know the context of this statement, so forgive me if I am way off base, but have you seen modern "Christian" discourse?
People simply call any belief they disagree with "heresy" and the people teaching it "heretic" without thinking. It could be the majority view of the Church for 2000 years but their independent church never taught it so they are hearing it for the first time, it could be that the accuser believes one or more actual heresies that the church has condemned, yet the first tool in the toolbox is to accuse. Frankly, it's too often the Christian version of the left's "racism" accusation, and seems to mean something similar: "I disagree with you but am unable to defend my view, so I'm going to call names instead."
There will be Christians in the audience who have never been taught to disagree gracefully or that it is ok to disagree on some doctrines and still regard each other as brother's in Christ. They treat everything they believe as if it is a first tier doctrine and any disagreement should result in excommunication and condemnation to hell. That's just a sad reality of our modern culture, so I can guess why making it clear that they do not think this way and that modeling how Christians are to disagree gracefully is important.
Leave Owen Strawman alone
😂
You guys are way off base. Start up Christian schools. We are called to teach, baptize, and make disciples. If we focus on these things we will change the culture. Your tone is whiney
Sounds like you're whining in this comment...
Your comment would have been much more constructive if it had identified where and how they are "way off base." Perhaps you should try that. And when you do, do so in recognition of the fact that the Great Commission is to disciple *all the nations.*
@@danbrown586 Exactly. And don't you just love it when people only show up for the purpose of criticism or condemnation? These types are not trying to have a civil discussion as Christians ought to be able to do, and lay out their Biblical case as to why they don't agree. They are cowards in my opinion.
Nations = ethnos meaning race or ethnicity, not nation in the sense of a political juristiction. Let go baptise China. Good idea. Maybe, instead we should make disciples and baptise individuals who believe and are Chinese. I'm reading the black on the page. You guys are getting too heavily invested in the white. The black is rock, the white is sand.
I see your frustration. I understand it. However, we are where we are because of our own laziness, carelessness, and lack of faith. The lefties outdid us. Teaching changes culture. We are called to teach. We have neglected this call. Our gardens are fruitless and weed infested as a result.
Is that you Owen? 👀
A Christian never loses! Even in fierce persecution and bloodshed martyrdom, he is victorious in Christ. His witness and testimony stand up under all conditions. The faithful Christian is hated by all who know not the Savior in spirit and truth. He is hated by false brethren, Professed Christian heretics, perhaps his family, and by the world. Perseverance through it all is promised to those who love and obey their Lord without compromise. This is the decreed lot of all God's elect! The power of God unto salvation was wrought through what appeared to be the weakness of the cross. And it I that hidden power which enables all his followers to endure all things as they are in the world but not of the world.
This is a divine and gospel plan of absolute victory over death Satan and the unbelieving world the Christian finds himself in. Our hope is in the next phase of God's Sovereign plan of redemption when Jesus returns to judge this world and all of his enemies, including the false denominations who profess his name. Jesus did not save national Israel, and neither will he save any other nation from its sin and wickedness. Revival and revivalism notwithstanding.
Revelation 5:9,10. A people redeemed and sanctified out of every people group whose names have been written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The false faiths and apostacy that surround the true church will not be overcome, and that is exactly what God has ordained.
But the elect will be saved absolutely! The apostolic church saw no victories in earthly terms, but they saw and experienced the power of God through the foolishness of preaching as the Lord built his church in the midst of great opposition and hatred. Here is the victory and triumph of an earnest and genuine saving faith. Here is where our expectations truly lie. Faithfulness without compromise until the end of the ages. Matthew16:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 3:21. Revelation 5:9,10.