Christian Nationalism, Theonomy, Postmillennialism, and Other Small Topics
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- Опубліковано 22 жов 2023
- In this discussion panel from Grace Bible Theological Seminary's pre-conference on The Gospel and the State: Christian Nationalism, Theonomy, and Baptist Free Church Doctrine, our speakers engage in a friendly debate over Christian Nationalism, Theonomy, Postmillennialism, and other small topics.
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James White is really the only reason I could watch this.
True this was kinda painful
Way too many false dichotomies
ahhh no 😅 maybe I should have listened before reading the comments
Dude no kidding. All the premills absolutely beat the crap out of that straw man that Owen built. Then you even have someone on the panel throw some more straw in when the poor thing was about empty, “I think we can assume this individual is postmillennial”.
James White is James White. Take him or leave him. I am more of a Tim Keller guy.
So thankful for James White and his witness and consistency 🙏🏽✝️🎯
He is delusional on the port of government having authority over a bunch of strangers
@@71mach15 He’s not delusional. But you make no sense 😂. How else is a government supposed to be. The ultimate Authority the government should be under is God’s Word.
@@reyleon2602 ok so maybe Dr. White isn’t delusional but just playing dumb..it’s one of the two, what exactly made no sense form what I said?
@@71mach15 How is He playing Dumb? And to respond to your question, you said delusion comes from the idea that Government has authority over a group of strangers. That is literally the Definition of any form of Government. That’s what didn’t make sense in your criticism. Also I want to note you just backed off from taking a hard stance of calling the Brother in Christ delusional.
@@reyleon2602 I do want to focus on something here, anyone can read back and use logic and reason anyways, if I were to present to you with my new government that I made, my political claims and all of it’s rules. You would start complying and obeying my government correct ?
James White held the line of a historical and propositional approach to this issue. True Christianity has a lot to offer and transform society to conform itself to the will of God. He is a gift!
True Christianity will transform society, but it's not going to happen on the terms of evangelical voters.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779why do You say that? That's not Our position (Not James', or mine, nor Anyone's i Know). It's going to happen on GOD'S Terms. Here's the thing; GOD Has Laid Out "HIS Terms". What are They?
Amen. Biblínõ
He is a verrrry Solid Brother who has not wavered in the face of any foe We Know -from [radical] "real" muslims, Roman catholics, Hate-filled aTheists, to full blown Apostates. He holds it down.
We're here to save souls not own the libs
Dr. James White is a well spoken man of God and I greatly appreciate his perspective. Thankfully, he was there to bring some challenges to a pessimistic panel.
Yes it is a depressing bunch. They need to read about the Scottish Covenanters. Not one of us will ever hurt a baptist because they are Credo Baptist. I would rather have Increase and Cotton Mather in my corner than Roger Williams or these anabaptist principles which aren't like John Bunyan who went to prison for 12 years for refusing to not preach without a license. Plus his daughter was blind and poor. That was a man of God who really suffered. The Canada pastor I applaud and he has a good testimony. But I can go to jail and spend some time there (like 3 years would be ok for me). Not a problem. Let's all start offending the culture and go to Prison. The leaders should be offending more of the mainstream culture. Jesus did and said if they don't hate us it's a bad sign. Who's ready?
That pessiminnialism is rampart in G3
Amen my Friend. YHWH Bless n Keep You!
@@jmsto87 Yes. It is all over the Modern Western Evangellyfish .
Perhaps it is like White representing the older men speaking sober words of reality during Rehoboam's time - but the king's son only listened to the younger untested men. The older godly men are getting older....will this younger generation listen? Doesn't look good from what I can see and G3 is on that line of decision.
You all need to have Owen debate Doug.
Doug needs to debate Dr. Don Preston instead. But I don’t know why all these reformers keep evading a debate with full preterists.
@@ProphetGreg94 Do full preterists think we are in our glorified bodies right now?
Isn't full preterism a heresy?
I used to listen to Don Preston, Don Preston is a heretic, Don needs to debate Dr. Sam Frost (again)@@ProphetGreg94
@@HearGodsWordaccording to?
James White gets it.
Yeah, I have been watching him talk for years online. Very familiar with his body language. He seemed annoyed by Mr. Strachan's poor attempt at comedy and the wish for applause (he sounded like a mainstream music performer wanting the crowd to show love in my opinion). Making jokes about eschatology is not something to make light of. It's God's Word and there is nothing good about laughing about Christian theology. Especially in this climate.
You could have Ken Gentry, Mark Rushdoony and Doug Wilson to discuss these topics. It could be a round table discussion. I hope you all would consider it.
It will not happen. Because they would be completely outclassed. Baptist history is bitter, and it is wrong to make it seem like Paedo Baptists are going to re-baptize or drown anyone. It's a silly argument being made against men of God who want a bottom up change in the country and world.
They’re scared
They are not interested in robust debate. You can question why that is, I have come to some conclusions personally, but historically these topics rose to the level of debate and discussion amongst the parties.
Doug Wilson is really good at sounding profound and intelligent to people who aren't (generally speaking). He's 90% rhetoric, 10% substance, just the sort of person who would thrive in the theologically anemic age we live in. It's all about how you sound that matters today.
Just read the predictable responses to this post. His followers are too childish to handle even slight criticism against their pseduo-intellectual idol.
@@greg7384calls others childish and unintelligent... While acting childish. Starting your attack with an ad hominem is not doing yourself any favors, dude. Just like you say the predictable response from Wilson's fans was predictable, so are the detractors. Do better.
James Coates is such a wonderful example of living faith, preaching faith, and leadership.
If God fearing people were in authority over the past 50 years, millions of slaughtered babies would never have been murdered. Millions of broken homes would have remained whole. The entire culture would be much more civil. The elderly would be safe, and honored. God fearing people in positions of governmental authority is a great benefit for a society.
It's more complicated than that.
Thank you brothers for shedding light into this challenging topic! Though there may be diverse eschatological views, it’s the Gospel of Jesus that unites and transforms!
G3 keeps insisting they're listening and reading and becoming experts on what CN is saying, and then they keep saying stuff like in this video showing they don't seem to be.
James White asks the right questions and provided satisfactory responses that were easy to understand. The rest were ambiguous and confusing at best.
The debate is "by what standard"
Scott - "there is a certain external morality the state is supposed to enforce"
Ok...what morality and based on what? If you say Christian Morality, Ethic or God's Law then this is Christian Nationalism as I see it.
Consistency is only found when we answer the most pressing question: What is the chief end of man? James White answers consistently.
he totally dominated the beginning of this panel
I just don't care for him
@@pam2viphwhy though? His book "The Forgotten Trinity", in my opinion, is one of the greatest works done by the mind of man in history. It should be required reading for all professing christians. Edward's was a genius who explained the Triune nature of God in ways that were honest, but near genius levels of intellect are required to understand it. Dr. Whites book has all those qualities, yet even a new believer can understand.
@@pam2viphrepent!
@@joshhigdon4951Owen should probably read it and reconsider his heretical EFS views of the Trinity 🤷♂️
James white made this panel worth watching!
James Coates went to jail for the truths we confess. James Coates argued for the primacy of the Word of God in the life of the church. And James White alone made this panel worth watching?
When will G3 have some of the CN guys on to have a face-to-face? This is getting ridiculous guys. Dr. White seems to be the closest but get some of the bigger CN advocates so we can hear a real debate.
Agreed 👍
Can’t wait for the CN guys to extend the same courtesy.
Oh wait… they won’t.
@@mattcraig4601they already have multiple times
@@mattcraig4601they’ve literally asked for debates lol
I don't see anyone offering to debate them
Voddie Baucham has some interesting thoughts on the term 'Christian Nationalism', pointing to it first being employed by the Left-leaning contingent within the church who used it as a smear against opponents who wouldn't accept Critical Theory in the pulpits.
That is where it was coined
Interesting thoughts being accurate thoughts
Yeah Voddie is a strong man of God I believe. He left the USA and I do not blame him. We need some devoted African Missionaries to come over here and evangelize and preach to us too. They are willing to suffer many of them and the Lord honors that!
And liberals today are not consistent with liberals yesterday, so much so we have to come up with another word today to better distinguish them, ie Classical liberal. So what's the point of this other than to call it something else? Did early Christians have a choice as to what the world was already calling them, what about the Puritans. What is your point?
@@banemaler My intention was to point fellow believers toward a helpful resource for understanding the subject of Christian Nationalism.
I mentioned Baucham because he has spoken extensively to the current upheavals in the Church, so I reckoned it might to be useful to direct folks his way, especially since a brief dialogue between the gentlemen in this video could only scratch the surface _and_ there is more to the topic than what was covered in this breakaway session, or even the larger conference.
That was my motivation in leaving a comment on youtube and the entirety of my point.
Yet now, seeing as you've taken some objection to my words, I'm motivated toward helping someone who seems to be struggling with making sense of it all. I can only imagine that the tone you've taken with my rather innocuous remark is from battling on many other fronts, causing one to see everything as an assault.
You might want to step back a little from the internet, not everyone is an enemy - though I suppose that if you persist in being so aggressive toward everyone who crosses your path, they soon will be.
... and i can assure you, friend: that would not be a problem for me
Brother James Coats is blessed by the Lord by wisdom from above on this topic , Praise God. Just refreshed to hear him speak on it
The misrepresentation of CN makes watching this panel almost unbearable.. 🙄
Where were all these supposed misrepresentations?
@@HearGodsWordevery time Aniol and Strachan opened their mouths, mostly
@@Jay_the_giant you couldn't find anything meaningful to reply with then 🥱
@@user-qx7qk6qi5x you sound like a papist complaining about Protestantism.
@@HearGodsWord or maybe you’re just blinding yourself to the actions of your idols 🤷♂️
Owen "Cringe You to Death" Strachan is back at it
Ironically, your comment is even more cringe 😂
Yes, next year we should have a colloquium on the English Civil War. Many of these topics would be made much clearer to people if we started what was the cause of that and why. The timeline of the study and consultation with eachother can be finished at the point when William of Orange came over from the Netherlands (that's my vote for the first year of the topic at least...then we can study the declension of Protestantism in the Nation of England that followed and the reaping and sowing took place...there were some great periods of revival and change up until the 20th century and my knowledge of Church revivals in England ends there. MLJ was a bright light for sure. Banner of Truth won't publish his writings even though he started the thing cuz he believed in extraordinary providences and great outpourings of the Holy Spirit that led to true revivals. Now BOT sells John Calvin face mugs....). It was a rough time for Protestant England but they weren't killing each other and that is a fact.( We sure could use something like that here, but alas, England is worse off than we are. ), For now. Pray for our nation and it's leaders. Not for Biden's conversion (which God can do, but it's a bit sanctimonious and obvious God is not well pleased with his life. But that the Church can have some rest like in the early chapters of Acts....after the persecution that is coming soon to real Christians. Let's see these leaders do some hard time for Christ. It will encourage and strengthen us. 501C3 can sit on rotten eggs! Check out Dr. Nick Needham's short series of lectures on the English Civil War. A Reformed Baptist type at least and fantastic Church History teacher on sermon audio. (Sidenote...I have had to listen to the series more than a few times to get it all straight. It is not an easy history but vital to the discussion that is called "friendly" here), but so much light and clearness will arrive if you pray and think about it as Paul tells Timothy to "think on these things and the Lord will give you understanding in everything).Please pray for Mr. Needham too as he is friends with James White and living in the godless, secular almost seemingly Muslim majority of the UK. They really hate their forefathers there in the Tory and Labor Pary Governments. King Charles isn't English either but German and Transylvanian. Neither is he saved by a long shot. I don't mind making that judgement and I will answer to God for making the statement publicly. With fear and trembling these things should be so (as we work out our own salvation), as judgement Begins in the household of God. So much for Reformation Day instead of the Helloween and other Pagan celebrations there in the land of the Puritans.
Please stop the name calling
He has better theology than you I'm sure of it
When you run from an actual debate and make up dubious sounding reasons why not to devate, then that makes us all think that your opponent has more firm support for their position than yours.
Many of us are familiar with the Streisand Effect. Here, we may see the origin of the Strahan Effect.
Who have they run from? 🤷
@@HearGodsWord AD Robles, Stephen Wolfe, many others.
@@lkae4 I haven't seen them run from those guys
@@HearGodsWord Then what have you seen? They've been challenged repeatedly for debate and keep attacking the CN side but no debate. What happened? What did you see?
Really appreciate James White!
Love his newfound optimism!
Watching this now
Thank you for sharing this. 😊
Please upload the other sermons from the conference. They were so good!!
I think just the fact that men can talk about the truth in suits and fully airconditioned rooms without the fear of becoming human torchlights is a manifestation of the church's progressive victory and influence on society. Postmil does not promise a "waltzing into the kingdom", it may take time, but it will come to pass that God by his Gospel and through his church will put his enemies under his foot.
But our brethren of previous generations have done similarly in parts of the world where they now cannot. This can happen to America as well.
@@lcs-salam can you cite an example? Also, if available, generations who are actively engaging the society. Thanks!
I am bless by all these men’s of God
Would have liked to see Ken Ham on panel…
He has good points regarding how we to point to Gen first …
Bless these men 🙏
Soli Deo Gloria
Ken Ham? He's not a pastor, theologian, or Bible scholar. Not even remotely close. He's a one-string banjo who thinks Genesis 1 is the only passage in the Bible.
People who don’t want to know the truth always say it causes division 😂
Truth does, to some extent, divide. We separate from the world because we know the truth. Yet, there are things in Scripture where it is not perfectly clear exactly who is right. Like this video started off by pointing out that all these men disagree on eschatology.
@@Jondoe_04
Eschatology?
Darby/scoffield brought in a pessimistic and defeating “eschatology”
Baptist brought in their own spin 😢
Charismatics brought in their spin 😢
Arminianism brought in their own spin 😢
Pastors of different churches can’t even get together and discuss heresies hence division 🤮
@frankcontreras8886 eschatology is the study of the end times all of them held to different beliefs on it but did think they were all brothers in Christ. Also, saying Darby and Scofield brought in a pessimistic eschatology doesn't make what I said wrong. What you said thou shows that you are making a doctrine that is meant to humble you as a point of pride.
@frankcontreras8886 literally, all of the three major forms of eschatology have been throughout church history. The earliest fathers were primarily post mill, and Augustin was one of the most well-known amillennial presenters in church history. And there are plenty that held to pre mil even in the early church. Dispensationalism is rather new, but still, that's only one form of premill.
Also, historical Baptist are amillennial.
Tell me something 😂
What are Christian’s suppose to do?
The very essence of biblical unity in the body of Christ is a honest, mature, humble ability to agree to disagree on topics that are not foundational and salvific. The lack of it, and the pride of man to stick to their guns on non eternal issues is the very reason the church, primarily here in the west, is so disjointed.
"Preaching the Gospel is not enough" would be the scariest thing i could hear another christian say. The Gospel is central, and should command my very life. The only real change in a society will be effected by the Gospel alone.
A cursory glance at any of Paul's epistles shows that he did far more than "preach the gospel". Once the gospel is preached and believed, "how then should we live" must be addressed, as Paul did.
Do you teach your kids how to do things, or just tell them "Jesus died for you"?
"Discipleship" BEGINS with the Gospel. What's truly scary is pietists like you who are literally so heavenly minded you are truly no earthly good. :) God bless.
Can you explain who exactly is saying that we should not preach the gospel? I hear this strawman argument all the time but noone has been able to show who is saying this - sounds very much like slander
@@philipmurray9796 Paul didn't do anything more than preach. If you're going to make that kind of fallacious claim, you had better show scriptural proof. Nowhere in the entirety of Paul's epistles did he ever say that God commanded him to do more than what what he was actually commissioned to do. I don't see a single passage where Paul tried to transform Rome through its politics.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 all of Paul's pastoral prescriptions and instructions for living in the church body are not preaching the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. Plain and simple.
Owen,and the G3 folks seem so afraid and insecure to really engage with the topics at hand. It seems they truly know that they are on the wrong side, but so afraid to just humble themselves and repent publicly for the harm they are doing to the church triumphant. It's a little funny, and sad at the same time.
So afraid that they had a whole conference on it? Hmm 🤷
Yes, honesty is always the best policy even worldlings will admit at times. Well, not so much anymore. But it is...see questions in the Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th commandment for a comprehensive exposition of this truth. And no matter what anyone tells you ever, The Westminster Assembly not Oliver Cromwell ever burned or drowned any Baptists. Neither the Mather's in New England. Fact.
How many Christian Nationalists are present on this debate stage?
None, which is tragic
@@StoryscapeDesign Where is Doug when we need him?
Define the term
Zero because they don't want to "platform" such.
@@c.m.granger6870 Weird that the only places I've heard that before is when liberals refuse to debate conservatives... so they hide behind "i don't want to platform them..." lol
Thank you James Coates... context!
Six Dudes against James White. Them odds just tain't fair. You shoulda had 12 dudes😁
Oh please!!! This was simply a discussion including Biblical theologians committed to the Gospel of Christ with varying eschatological viewpoints! That’s all!
Praise God for all these Men. To speak on these things is to examine the heart. Hopefully these men can learn from one another. We all need to take a step back and put tradition aside at times. Because tradition can be a killer.
It’s strange that the anti-Christian nationalist crowd will scream about “We should be preaching the gospel” but leave out the part where Jesus is Lord of all and we must conform all our life to His standards including political engagement.
Almost immediately, Dr. White is asked about his take on Psalm 2: Are kings supposed to kiss the Son, lest He be angry, as men or as something else (as kings). My response back would be, "Should a minister act as a Christian outside the pulpit or only in it?" How could a king, a man saved by the blood of Christ, rule outside the will of his King?
Thank GOD for James White.
This is hard to listen to besides Dr. White. It just doesn’t seem like they’re in touch/understand what’s actually going on
Perhaps you can enlighten us
@@tbh334 I think the other comments plus tons of content by men such as Dr. White, D. Wilson, Webbon, Robles, Jon Harris, and many others that I’m not naming should be adequate to explain what I mean.
@@tbh334 People like Owen will sling dirt on twitter and strawman the other side... then go on interviews and talk about people being immature on twitter. He says he doesnt want to "platform CNs"... yet he platforms the idea constantly, even though he strawmans it. If you dont want an idea getting platformed, you shouldn't spend so much time talking about it.
Like his question: "What would you do if a young CN comes to you and says "the gospel just isn't enough anymore....".
Well, no CNs are saying that... so what are you talking about? Oh, just implying that CNs believe something they don't, in order for you to be able to burn the strawman you just created... got it.
@hammers5250 it's easy to complain when you don't provide examples.
"Let's assume... Christianizing a nation is a good thing..." Ummm who is this guy, and what on earth is he thinking
44:00
I wish Voddie had of been on this panel.
He is busy training pastor's in Africa who aren't about the Benjamins or prestige I would wager if I was a betting man which I'm not. We need them over here.
I love you all, but I love Pastor Coates! He is just a Blessing to me!
A good and edifying conversation.
Preaching the gospel is essential. But it is not the only thing Christians should care about.
Everyone of these men of GOD had something to bring to the table and I so appreciate everyone of them.
Pastor Coates really doesn't like postmillenialism lol
Well that's fine cuz he stood strong like a real man of God with his kid's crying and everything. He is to be admired. Spurgeon said it's good for us (the Church) to see a preacher get arrested every once in a while. We might get to see who copies his good Christian conduct.
It's so encouraging to know how many people are awake and see the hypocrisy coming from G3. Like so encouraging
So what's this amazing alternative to G3 that's offering so much encouragement? 🫣
@@HearGodsWord Honest pastors whose allegiance is to Jesus, not a brand?
@dubyag4124 so these men then
@@HearGodsWord If you prefer liars? If you call that a good pastor, suit yourself. Strachan said CN teaches "living in a "Christian" nation makes you a Christian". There are zero credible leaders on the CN side of the discussion who teach or believe this. But G3 continues to misrepresent. So yes, "these men". they are all yours brother, enjoy the echo chamber.
@@HearGodsWord Apologia, Fight Laugh Feast, Jon Harris, Right Response Ministries…
This was hard to watch & listen to :/ appreciate dr white staying consistent and unashamed. despite not even being CN himself! this video doesn't paint g3 in a particularly good light
Hallelujah Born Again Philippines or Philippines Spiritual revival is coming so very, very near in my nation Philippines in Jesus Christ Holy, Mighty, Great and Powerful name I pray Amen.
So is anyone concerned about the misuse of the phrase"gates of hell" as a basis for an adversarial relationship to powers in the world?
Grace, Peace, n LOVE to all the Elect in YHWH YESHUA. i highly recommend "the sweater vest dialogues". They are filled with Wisdom and quite Edifying (i believe theyre on Canon Press and Alpha and Omega)
At the end of the day, please bear in mind that all of these men are faithful Christian’s. We disagree on secondary and tertiary issues and we can stand strong in our convictions without harming unity. There should and must still be unity although there is disagreement in these issues.
That aside, one of my concerns with Christian Nationalism is the potentiality of its contribution to setting up either an anti-Christ figure if not the Anti-Christ himself. HOWEVER- we really really need the term “Christian Nationalist” defined clearly when we talk about it. Because it’s definitely a term that applies to both genuine Christians and the false convert alike.
The other side has plenty of evidence that more than one of these men are not faithful to brethren. Overwhelming evidence.
Totally agree
Ppl who disagree with God are not following him. The whole "we can disagree on secondary issues" is just the evangelicals' way of trying to sweep falsehoods under the rug. The Bible teaches in 2 Jhn 9 that disagreeing with Christ's doctrines makes someone a deceiver. It's funny how evangelicals will use the "secondary issue" argument when it comes to ppl they like, but they don't keep that same energy with the pro-LGBT churches.
The Earth is flat. Would you consider this a secondary issue without harming unity?
@@cxx1953 that’s an unbelievably false equivalency.
Guys, they have every right to have the panel in the fashion that they did it. I also hope one of them debates someone who embraces the CN label, but they have no obligation to have a formal debate about it at their own conference.
It's not about having the debate at their conference. It's about a debate period. Don't criticize and attack other Christians and then run. There are many unflattering yet accurate descriptors for that kind behavior. None of them appropriate for leaders of the church.
I think the joking at the beginning of the panel was really bad form. He wanted the audience to applaud. He knew he messed up and seemed to try to cover it in my small judgement. Praise from God is much sweeter than the praise of men for sure. We will all get our rewards.
@@fw2101jacobinsleight He says the most unaware things. I'm shocked he got this far up the G3 chain. His understanding of the Gospel seems about as deep a puddle from a spilled soda.
Hey guys I’m new to G3, who are all these men? Names? Anybody know? I know James White..
Owen is so cringe.
What Christian nationalist has said to him “the gospel just isn’t going to cut it anymore”? None. That’s how many.
Guy refuses to talk to actual Christian nationalists, but repeatedly and openly straw man’s it. Gross.
Don't call it a debate if you don't include the proponents of all positions.
Can you explain JMs comment in context?
Looking forward to hearing this. We are all theonomists. The question, as Doug Wilson has asked is, who's "theo"?.
Its either theonomy or autonomy.
Amen
I'm not sure it's quite a binary as that, unless it's being reduced to a very basic level.
@@HearGodsWord if you want to explain, i'm all ears
@joshhigdon4951 if I'm wrong then show me how.
@@HearGodsWord for me to call you wrong, I first have to hear your plausible explanation. Just asserting that you "dont think its binary" isnt an arguement. If there is an option other than theonomy or autonomy, I would like to hear it.
“If you don’t want your kids seeing a drag-queen story hour…just homeschool them.”
Yeah, tell that to Christian parents in Germany, where homeschooling is outlawed! And that’s where we’re heading in a society as decadent as this one.
Oh it's coming.
That comment was intended mainly for Americans. Anyone who has tried homeschooling outside of the united States of America knows that there's barely a chance. It's pretty much up to Americans to lead the world on that front.
@@fiery_hunter3271. But that situation is there because of the denigration of liberty even within Western democracies. I’m not for Christian Nationalism, per se. But I am for fighting against multiculturalism and postmodernism and the continuing dilution of Constitutionalism. I am for bringing back a robust classical liberalism. I am for a basic Judeo-Christian ethic predominating (in order to ensure the freedom of EVERYBODY).
I don’t want anybody’s kids sexually abused. I don’t want any of them manipulated concerning gender identity. I don’t want any of them subjected to “Drag Queen Story Hour.”
@@hanssvineklev648 Precisely. But are you expecting all Western society to move the right way _at the same time_ ? Someone has to lead. It may or may not be America, but it likely is. Also, at about 20:00 of the linked video, the Christian Nationalism thing is directly laid out: ua-cam.com/users/liveKC_6ItikPX0?si=CDF1JidWDqH4emfU I wonder if it might change your mind on Christian Nationalism.
@@fiery_hunter3271. I don’t think most of “Western” society is Western any longer. And many would maintain that even here in the United States we need to wake up and smell the coffee: we have ALREADY lost the so-called “culture war.”
Breitbart famously observed that “politics is downstream from culture,” and in some ways that’s true. But in other ways, it’s quite the opposite. The pseudo-left has gained hegemony through manipulation of the electoral and legal system, as well as a relentless, systematic march through the institutions: the judicia, the media, academia, tech, medicine, science in general, politics, economics, and philosophy. Of course, it hasn’t ignored the culture: entertainment, the arts, and literature. But I don’t think it has majored on it.
To the extent that there is a chance left, America will have to pick up the slack. But Evangelicals here are so “go along to get along” that I don’t see it happening, except, perhaps, as an act of God.
G3 guys started this mess and then when they get pushback they whine and refuse to engage in discussion with Christian brothers. How very Christ-like of them. Not to mention the lying and slander they’ve been spouting on Twitter.
"Let's get ready to rumbleeeeee!"
Last time he ever officiates a panel....
That was quite funny but questionable :)
This discussion would have been far more enriching and insightful IF they had at least one person who openly embraces the idea of Christian Nationalism / Mere Christendom. Quite disappointing that they discussed and affirmed each other's strawman views of CN rather than actually give stage and engage Wilson's, the Wolfe's, Webbon, etc. Sad.
Judging from their interactions elsewhere on social media my question is why did we expect any different?
@@nando7522 Agreed
I've personally heard them address every single aspect of CN put forth by Webbon, Wilson, and Wolfe.
Maybe watch/read a bit more of G3's videos and articles?
Not being sarcastic. Respectfully... they've addressed all of it. They simply don't agree.
Blessings on you.😊
I don't think James White was stawamnning his friend in the slightest, and I don't think Pastor Wilson would say he strawmanned him.
@@lauramckinney9896Yes they've addressed it but they misrepresent it and they refuse to talk to anyone on the other side publicly or privately. They are arguing against an imaginary perspective. You should probably do more research.
I’m only here for James White
We know.
I appreciated where Dr. White was leading the panel pertaining to future generations ... Thanks for redirecting instead of engaging 😑
There is no liberty without virtue. The gospel provides absolute and objective morality, which establishes a standard (Jesus) for living with virtue.
Apart from James White, you can tell the members of G3 have a severe deficit in understanding a biblical worldview, involving politics and culture. It's quote obvious they haven't read any source material on theonomy, besides quote mining to find things they don't like. Or at least I really hope they haven't read it, otherwise I'd be forced to conclude that they have read the source material and just can't comprehend it.
Yes, James Coates who literally went to jail for the truths we confess when he stood up to the Canadian government has a severe deficit in understanding a biblical worldview and how it relates to politics and culture.
@@greg7384 if he denies the abiding validity of God’s law in politics today, then yes.
Debate over stawmen. Where is the advocate for CN?
For those who might not be familiar with the subjects discussed, might be helpful to define the terminology before commenting and or answering the questions.
At least with christian nationalism and theonomy, the definition *is* the debate.
James White gets it. The rest I admire and see as sincere and good pastors, nevertheless they seem to want to live in a safe space where it's possible to deny what's going on. What is going on requires something new in response called out to exactly match the present challenge-a massive revolutionary overturn and leftist-religious take-over of all things normal.
The church can meet that challenge in many ways but giving the challenge over to the atheists and secular humanists/classical liberals as we are now (mostly) doing is unfortunate-especially since it seems to present opportunities for courage and insight, patience and willingness to make some mistakes and rejection. I think events may well snowball and this casual response will be forced to changed.
Thanks for the talk.
I'm surprised that Dr. White quoted Psalm 33:12a ("Blessed in the nation whose God is the Lord"). Surely he must know the second half of that verse: "The people He has chosen as His own inheritance." That tells us: 1. It's about people, not a geopolitical entity, and 2. Those people are chosen by God; they do not make the Lord their God. They don't attain that by their own efforts. Obviously, the only ultimate "nation" that can fulfill that verse is the church itself. The church is God's holy nation (1 Peter 2:9).
The theonomic side loves to twist Scripture. Of course he ignored the other part of that passage.
Would the principle still not apply though? Will a nation that, as a whole, recognizes yahweh as their Lord not receive blessing as a result? I'm not denying that God must first choose the people within that nation btw.
@@hookoffthejab1 How exactly does a nation recognize Yahweh? How many laws? How many slogans and symbols? What percentage of its population?
Whatever sins a nation outlaws, there will always be more, and it can't stop its people from offending God every day. Even Old Testament Israel, which had the law of God as the law of the land, fell under God's judgment.
Nations don't have hearts or minds or souls. Nations can't exercise faith. Any religious policies it has are worthless, and God's wrath is still coming upon it because its people are sinners.
@@akadwriter and that would be a very unfair and unbalanced assessment or accusation given the context of the Q&A session where each speaker is usually encouraged to have less than a 3-4 minute response, else the session would have gone on for more than 8 hours if each speaker was permitted to give a comprehensive response.
@@jp22344 It's based on watching CN speak for hours. And their writings. Not just this video.
44:00 very good question
Love me some Dr White!
Yeah, let’s gather everyone that think alike to have a debate.
There’s a big difference between a debate and a discussion.
Yes and this discussion mainly involves affirming each others' strawman arguments
@mhyndman100 you haven't yet found a straw man
@@mhyndman100 And I keep hearing cries of "straw man" without examples or validation. I Maybe some of us acknowledge that Christianity has existed for longer than James White's podcast and valid differing viewpoints...you know...exist.
I don't know where you are personally on the spectrum, but some of us are weary of young, unstudied (sometimes studied) theonomists and postmillennialists who talk like they're the only thinking people in the church. Does that crowd seriously want to go there? No thinking Christian outside of the theonomy/postmill camp exists?
The below text places Psalm 2 directly after Christ resurrection.
that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' (Acts 13:33, NASB)
To anyone reading the comments. Christian Nationalism IS the book "To My Legionaries" by Corneliu Codreanu. Read it! It is not the Westminster Confession of Faith. Its as simple as that.
Read C.H. Spurgeon sermon on Ps. 22 " The Triumph oy Christianity " and you will get a better view of Baptist thinking on the glorious spread of the Gospel in the world. It's not just James White's vision it was Spurgeon's also.
Amen. And Spurgeon was historic premill. It's getting old reading comments from people who have no historical perspective on these things yet point the finger at everyone else for "not getting it."
I'll stick with Edwards
How was Doug Wilson not on this panel?
No kidding
I can think of a couple: 1. He had other commitments scheduled. 2. They didn’t want to bring in “The CN guy” and wanted to show that there’s others who hold to the position who are less controversial. Some people will (wrongly) immediately shut off when Doug is involved or will just tag CN as a uniquely Moscow brand Presbyterian ideal. Bringing in someone who is both a baptist and very well versed in apologetics, church history, the source languages, etc, makes a lot of sense.
Doug Wilson, with his filthy mouth, isn't qualified to be a pastor. Why should he be invited?
("But Paul said...")
Good question. Maybe he had a conflict or he’s a coward
Who is/are the Christian Nationalist in the panel?
No one lol. The closest is dr white but as he mentioned in the beginning, he doesn't apply that term to himself
Premillennialism is the issue standing in the way of a sense of Christian nations.
That and the unqualified support of the God-hating secular nation of Israel
The James did it well.
Pastors encourage prophetic preaching of judgement to the city square and public schools
Christian was derogatory label given to us as well
so who are the CN guys?
To name a few: John Harris, ad robles, Joel webbon, Doug Wilson (leader of the previous 3) and Stephen wolf (wrote a book on CN).
White & Coats! They all did well!
There was no discussion of Theonomy which is different from CN.
What is the difference I thought those were just interchangeable? I know what theonomy is I thought CN was just another word for theonomy
I don't have a clue what the context of this discussion is.
Is it me that those who have an amillennial view hardly ever speak? IMO
Thank you James White for shinning the truth - you are so gifted in knowledge of the Word
7:40 "The lying tongue hates it's victim" Proverbs 26: 28. You brought it up because you were offended. Do not fear the truth of your feelings. "The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion." Proverbs 28:1. You have them for a reason and they are Godly. Recognize them and distribute grace accordingly.
No Doug Wilson?
Until there are representatives from both camps at the table to have a robust and thorough conversation, in person, and not via social media this will continue to be a vague conversation that doesnt help or edify or answer questions alot of people have. Maybe James White can moderate a round table between some of them😅
man, someone really dominated the opening of this panel
running into all directions with his thoughs…
Yet none of the men seemed to mind. In fact, the first episode of the G3 podcast after the conference even joked about it.
The claim that Scott makes that the magistrate does not have respect to the 1st table of the law is absurd. Its arbitrary and there is no biblical basis for saying that gross evils should go unpunished because they are direct offenses againist God and not man.
Freedom of religion has no biblical basis.
🔥
In regards to Theonomy and postmil, I always ask the question- "Should we evangelist those who hold positions of power in government?"
That was addressed very directly here, throughout the video but spelled out at ~20:00: ua-cam.com/video/KC_6ItikPX0/v-deo.html&pp=ygULY2Fub24gcHJlc3M%3D
Yes we should, however perhaps it’s not nessessary to be a Christian in government, but at least follow And uphold Gods law
And the guys at CanonPress will be very happy about this conversation...
It's not our responsibility to make sure the Christians are actually saved. Our job is to sow the seed. The Lord brings the harvest.
That being said it's always preferable to live in a Christian country while preaching the word faithfully.
Right, real change happens not only in government but in Society, the family , the individual
James is only man on the stage. Change my mind.
I really want to know if these guys know what the differences are between Christian Nationalism and Christian Reconstruction. So far I only think White knows the distinctions which a major ones.
0:53 "Please clap" lol