I've seen some lug work done by rolliworks, where the lug is completely blown out and wont hold a pin anymore and is then repaired to like-new condition. I think under the right circumstance this type of repair is more than acceptable.
I think this is up to the owner. Personally, I’d rather buy a piece with the case fully restored back to factory using a laser weld of the same 904l used by Rolex than buy one with butchered lugs from a bad polish job. If you’re going to keep the watch then why not get it and make it look like new if that’s your thing. The problem really is dishonest dealers selling them as NOS. If you buy it and want a restore done to it and plan on keeping it, I think it’s fine.
I agree Austin, it's like a body filled mustang being called " showroom" condition, it should only be used to resurrect the dead, not touch up a perfectly used piece trying to make it something its not
you have made some very good points. You shouldnnot buy from a dealer because we wont know what they did to the watch before they sold it to us. Don't buy from a private guy because they may scam you with a fake so only solution is buy new.
Good job Austin, you bring up a lot of really interesting points. Although I don’t share your love for vintage, I do lament the fact that the modern Rolex watches will not change or age the way the older ones do. Therefore more and more I am thinking of scratches and signs of wear as the new patina.
This is a very simplistic way of looking at things. If the repair work is done back to specifications it's a great thing to do. It's a watch not a philosophical conundrum. I also think you misunderstood what Roman said. Also finding a capable individual that can actually do this work is very difficult.
I suppose this is just another method of restoration, like having a bracelet repaired to get rid of the slack. I'm ok with it as long as the watch is labelled as such when it is sold, and priced accordingly. The snag is that not everyone is honest enough to do so. Caveat emptor.
Good question - Actually Austin I've been offered 4 watches in last 12 months 1665 DRSD, 6265 37mm sigma and 6542 blackman and a PCG 7928 Swiss dial - all had been Lazer welded and and all the chamfer angles were off/not correct, with too much metal apparent in odd places (eg next to bezel) and the nap of brushed/polished parts too was way to fresh. So you can (if in the know {though granted most are not} spot it from 10 paces....so it's a risky thing to do if your planning selling it on to likes of me, as we just don't buy at mint prices if rejuvenated/molested !
Very interesting, Paul. Those are some pretty amazing pieces to have undergone a bad laser welding job - that's a shame. Good to know they can be spotted, but it goes to show that having a valuable vintage piece laser welded comes with its own risk. Makes me appreciate an honest piece that's had a few polishes over the years!
From my experience Rolex doesn’t laser weld. It could be just me. Here’s the question...if Rolex did laser weld is that ok? Is laser welding ok to fix a big dent or entire case refinishing i.e. recut chamfers?
I see your point,specially when you do all this modifications to a vintage piece like this one,collectors want originally, a keeps the integrity of any vintage piece...
I think for some, yes it does ruin the authenticity of a watch. For others, clearly not. Analogous to the classic car world where some folks want something restored to the point where it looks like it’s just rolled off the production line whereas others prefer a car that’s as close to original condition as possible while still remaining useable. Both have a market. As for determining whether or not something’s been laser welded, apparently a young French chap has come up with a test using an acidic compound which will disclose the welds. Ingenious but not very practical for the average buyer. In the real world the only way to play relatively safe is to assume that any vintage case which looks brand spanking new and completely unpolished has definitely been restored and then make your buying decision accordingly.
If you cant accept an old watch buy a new one. Vintage comes with vintage perks and problems and so does modern, I dont like people trying to get the best of both worlds by creating weird shit like this.
Austin Daniels even Rolex replaces faded bezels tritium hands and dials. I would never send a vintage watch to Rolex for servicing but purists are a very small percentage of watch owners. You might not like what owners do with their personal property but it’s their right! BTW I’ll pass on ladyboys-save them for AC3!!
The first time i heard of that is was regarding antique clock pivots and i was all for it as it preserves more of the original piece. As for watches id have to say no. Unless it was a case that was actually broken somehow as in a lug snapped off, or a watch that was in extremely rough shape near the point of unusability. If thats a word. Lol But i hate seeing clocks or watches discarded or parted out if they can be saved somehow.
Allow me to introduce you to another kind of watch snob: The TRUE OWNER. I think so many "purists" think in terms of no to light/regular wear, and not hard wear for which sport rolex's, omegas, and others were originally built, but instead are obsessed with the day they will no longer want their watch, as if it is inevitable. The TRUE OWNER has no intent of flipping or selling or re-introducing his watch to the market. He wants to continue to wear his watch forever -- he's fallen in love with it and its been on his wrist reliably in the most trying of conditions. But it is BEAT UP, decayed, rusted, broken -- far beyond scratches and fading and dings and in-need-of-maintenance. Then what? I wore my Omega Mark IV that was a high school graduation present throughout my Air Force career. It went through the bayonette assault course with me, the confidence course, air base defense training, reconnaissance commando training, SERE training, water survival, fresh and salt water, high-altitude/high-speed aircraft, navigation, obstacle courses, sky-diving, etc. -- both as student and instructor. Then it performed for years with me in space operations centers around the world where the astrodynamics involved require precise time keeping. It is now off in Switzerland (sent there by my AD with instructions to "make it like day one again"). This is not a watch that just shows character -- it looks like a zombie and barely runs (the date won't even flip anymore and there's rust in it). I'd love the idea of this new concept making it look new again. All your arguments against are because you're not in love, or haven't relied on your watch enough with your life or career. You do make one consolation when you talk about "throw it away or do something", but I think putting it that way doesn't recognize enough such owners who want to restore their watch to near-pristine condition because they have no intention of sending their watch back to the market, and their watch is way past scratch and ding -- they are TRUE OWNERS.
Whether it's ok to expertly (and I mean expertly) restore a dial or a case is mainly subjective or a totally arbitrary ruling made by collectors in a particular field. If you went to a vintage car auction and a 1950's Ferrari goes for $1.5m and you jump up and shout 'You can't sell that, it's been repainted!' they would think you were fucking mad! Same goes for restored fine art paintings, antique furniture etc. In each case sympathetic restoration often increases the value. All I'm saying is that these things need to be judged on their individual merits. BTW. I don't include restoration that is meant to deceive. It should be stated what has been done, but that does not make it a sin.
The original cases on the old Rolex’s are made from a single blanked piece of metal. Punched from a strip of that metal in a mechanical press. Followed by finished machining and polishing. Once you add any filler rod to repair a ding, there’s always inclusions from dissimilar metals welded on to the repair and the constituents in the filler rod that can introduce unseen corrosion characteristics. IMO.... it’s not a good idea filling a diver watch with dissimilar metals on its case using any welding process. A better idea would be to replace the case. A diver watch needs to be impervious to corrosion for any kind due to it nature. This type of repair thing compromises the authenticity of the watches function. Especially if it’s used as intended, for water submersion.
Austin Daniels..... Austin, id say 305 welding wire for 905L stainless is comparable. It’s a close material constituents but if you weld material that might of been previously heat treated there’s always changes in the parent metal once welding is preformed.
I do think that laser welding has a place here. Certainly it makes sense for bracelet and clasp repair applications and for broken or severely damaged lugs. However, I feel that laser welding on a case, solely to address aesthetic issues resulting from over-polishing, is something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis (pun-intended). Regardless, there is a greater issue here. One surely has to make a distinction between laser welding on a four or perhaps a later five digit vintage sport model. Furthermore, why draw the line at laser welding? Doesn't this argument apply to a host of non-reversible procedures like reluming of hands and various dial restoration techniques, bracelet restoration, etc...and don't even get me started on the addition of "reproduction" or counterfeit parts to these pieces. Given that period-correct vintage parts for many references are now all but unobtainable, what is perceived to be correct is somewhat fluid. Given the enormous price delta between the very few investment grade vintage pieces out there and their counterparts of more dubious composition, there is ample incentive to push the originality envelope. Laser welding is just one procedure amongst many that comprise this slippery slope. Now that many if us are sheltering in place and have more time than usual on our hands, perhaps the community should tackle this...no time like the present.
Laser welding totally destroys the "vintage feel" of the watch and eliminates the balance between the patinated dial/hands, lightly scratched plastic glass, the worn bracelet/clasp AND the refinished case. I hate it when dealers (on Instagram) present a very old and expensive Rollie Sub with a laser welded case as being in "very good condition", "near mind", "collectible" etc. which it is NOT! If you decide to laser weld the case why not exchange the dial/hands with new one(s) also while your at it? See? It makes no sense! Buy a new watch if you hate old/vintage ones. In my opinion by laser welding the watch you exclude the entire collector community from being interested in your watch should you want to sell it.
I don't know that you could tell. I guess if a 30 year-old piece looks a little too minty, that could tip you off. (But what if they tell you it was a safe queen!)
Austin Daniels exactly. A private sale with original owner probably the closest you will get to being sure. I could never trust a “mint” vintage piece from a dealer.
Look, it’s a watch that is being used, it’s not a prime museum piece. If it was a museum piece we wouldn’t touch it. But it’s just a thing. if you want scratches you can have your scratches, if you want polish, then polish it. You like damaged dials and hands? You can have patina. You want laser welding? Weld away. I personally don’t want a polish I don’t want patina and if a watch is so f’ed up you need to put metal back on it is that watch really worth it? At some point the object has been “destroyed” and needs to be replAced in its entirety.
Austin Daniels if I owned a watch that my use of it made it sooo bad I would either keep it as is for the memories or replace parts and make it a franken knowing it is MY Franken because my life is too hard on a Rolex - and take pride in that
This topic has me truly rethink my view on refurbishing vintage watches. The owner has the right to have a case remanufactured however there comes a responsibility to disclose that information if the watch is sold at a later date. To do otherwise would be theft and fraud. Thanks for sharing this Austin.
You’re talking conservation vs restoration. This is the dilemma when dealing with vintage goods. Look at vintage cars. They often undergo extensive restoration, with rust cut away and new panels welded on. Is this wrong? There are many vintage watches that have been over polished, leaving the case misshapen and the lugs thin. The case is essentially ruined. I see nothing wrong with bringing this original case back to its factory specifications and giving the watch a new lease on life. Your analogy of someone making dials, hands and papers indistinguishable from the OEM parts is not a good one, as you’re talking about making parts from scratch, essentially counterfeit, as opposed to taking an original part and restoring it. Very different.
I've seen some lug work done by rolliworks, where the lug is completely blown out and wont hold a pin anymore and is then repaired to like-new condition. I think under the right circumstance this type of repair is more than acceptable.
I think this is up to the owner. Personally, I’d rather buy a piece with the case fully restored back to factory using a laser weld of the same 904l used by Rolex than buy one with butchered lugs from a bad polish job. If you’re going to keep the watch then why not get it and make it look like new if that’s your thing. The problem really is dishonest dealers selling them as NOS. If you buy it and want a restore done to it and plan on keeping it, I think it’s fine.
I agree Austin, it's like a body filled mustang being called " showroom" condition, it should only be used to resurrect the dead, not touch up a perfectly used piece trying to make it something its not
you have made some very good points. You shouldnnot buy from a dealer because we wont know what they did to the watch before they sold it to us. Don't buy from a private guy because they may scam you with a fake so only solution is buy new.
It's certainly the safest option. But if you have a penchant for neo-vintage, what're you gonna do!
Good job Austin, you bring up a lot of really interesting points. Although I don’t share your love for vintage, I do lament the fact that the modern Rolex watches will not change or age the way the older ones do. Therefore more and more I am thinking of scratches and signs of wear as the new patina.
I think laser welding (and restoration in general) has its place. It must be used sparingly.
This is a very simplistic way of looking at things. If the repair work is done back to specifications it's a great thing to do. It's a watch not a philosophical conundrum. I also think you misunderstood what Roman said. Also finding a capable individual that can actually do this work is very difficult.
I suppose this is just another method of restoration, like having a bracelet repaired to get rid of the slack. I'm ok with it as long as the watch is labelled as such when it is sold, and priced accordingly. The snag is that not everyone is honest enough to do so. Caveat emptor.
Good question - Actually Austin I've been offered 4 watches in last 12 months 1665 DRSD, 6265 37mm sigma and 6542 blackman and a PCG 7928 Swiss dial - all had been Lazer welded and and all the chamfer angles were off/not correct, with too much metal apparent in odd places (eg next to bezel) and the nap of brushed/polished parts too was way to fresh. So you can (if in the know {though granted most are not} spot it from 10 paces....so it's a risky thing to do if your planning selling it on to likes of me, as we just don't buy at mint prices if rejuvenated/molested !
Very interesting, Paul. Those are some pretty amazing pieces to have undergone a bad laser welding job - that's a shame. Good to know they can be spotted, but it goes to show that having a valuable vintage piece laser welded comes with its own risk. Makes me appreciate an honest piece that's had a few polishes over the years!
Sometimes a cathedral needs a new roof. Sometimes a renaissance painting need to be restored. Sometimes a classic car need a new set of tyres.
I’ll never buy a car 🚗 over 8 years old because it doesn’t have original tires or brakes! Austin is a purist off the deep end!
9:28
@@underachievingwatchcollect1878 . That just means you're not into classic cars. And that's ok. Enjoy your hybrid car or whatever.
Fahrenheit 451 sarcasm escapes you
@@underachievingwatchcollect1878 . Ditto, old chap.
From my experience Rolex doesn’t laser weld. It could be just me. Here’s the question...if Rolex did laser weld is that ok? Is laser welding ok to fix a big dent or entire case refinishing i.e. recut chamfers?
I see your point,specially when you do all this modifications to a vintage piece like this one,collectors want originally, a keeps the integrity of any vintage piece...
How do you know if a watch has been polished? What are the signs to look for?
Most can't unless it's a shitty job, I had Rolex polish my Kermit Sub.Impossible to tell.🍻
If it’s too smooth or rounded
I think for some, yes it does ruin the authenticity of a watch. For others, clearly not. Analogous to the classic car world where some folks want something restored to the point where it looks like it’s just rolled off the production line whereas others prefer a car that’s as close to original condition as possible while still remaining useable. Both have a market. As for determining whether or not something’s been laser welded, apparently a young French chap has come up with a test using an acidic compound which will disclose the welds. Ingenious but not very practical for the average buyer. In the real world the only way to play relatively safe is to assume that any vintage case which looks brand spanking new and completely unpolished has definitely been restored and then make your buying decision accordingly.
If you cant accept an old watch buy a new one. Vintage comes with vintage perks and problems and so does modern, I dont like people trying to get the best of both worlds by creating weird shit like this.
It's no different than car restoration. With that all that matters is that the numbers match
Restoration is a good thing. If we buy into your argument then we shouldn’t date women with augmented breasts-viva fake boobs!!
If we buy into YOUR argument than I guess ladyboi's are on the menu! ;)
But seriously, where do you draw the line; a refinished dial?
Austin Daniels even Rolex replaces faded bezels tritium hands and dials. I would never send a vintage watch to Rolex for servicing but purists are a very small percentage of watch owners. You might not like what owners do with their personal property but it’s their right! BTW I’ll pass on ladyboys-save them for AC3!!
The first time i heard of that is was regarding antique clock pivots and i was all for it as it preserves more of the original piece. As for watches id have to say no. Unless it was a case that was actually broken somehow as in a lug snapped off, or a watch that was in extremely rough shape near the point of unusability. If thats a word. Lol
But i hate seeing clocks or watches discarded or parted out if they can be saved somehow.
Allow me to introduce you to another kind of watch snob: The TRUE OWNER. I think so many "purists" think in terms of no to light/regular wear, and not hard wear for which sport rolex's, omegas, and others were originally built, but instead are obsessed with the day they will no longer want their watch, as if it is inevitable. The TRUE OWNER has no intent of flipping or selling or re-introducing his watch to the market. He wants to continue to wear his watch forever -- he's fallen in love with it and its been on his wrist reliably in the most trying of conditions. But it is BEAT UP, decayed, rusted, broken -- far beyond scratches and fading and dings and in-need-of-maintenance. Then what? I wore my Omega Mark IV that was a high school graduation present throughout my Air Force career. It went through the bayonette assault course with me, the confidence course, air base defense training, reconnaissance commando training, SERE training, water survival, fresh and salt water, high-altitude/high-speed aircraft, navigation, obstacle courses, sky-diving, etc. -- both as student and instructor. Then it performed for years with me in space operations centers around the world where the astrodynamics involved require precise time keeping. It is now off in Switzerland (sent there by my AD with instructions to "make it like day one again"). This is not a watch that just shows character -- it looks like a zombie and barely runs (the date won't even flip anymore and there's rust in it). I'd love the idea of this new concept making it look new again. All your arguments against are because you're not in love, or haven't relied on your watch enough with your life or career. You do make one consolation when you talk about "throw it away or do something", but I think putting it that way doesn't recognize enough such owners who want to restore their watch to near-pristine condition because they have no intention of sending their watch back to the market, and their watch is way past scratch and ding -- they are TRUE OWNERS.
ua-cam.com/video/Lmalz_KfPG8/v-deo.html
Very good discussion today though.
Thanks CP!
Whether it's ok to expertly (and I mean expertly) restore a dial or a case is mainly subjective or a totally arbitrary ruling made by collectors in a particular field.
If you went to a vintage car auction and a 1950's Ferrari goes for $1.5m
and you jump up and shout 'You can't sell that, it's been repainted!' they would think you were fucking mad!
Same goes for restored fine art paintings, antique furniture etc.
In each case sympathetic restoration often increases the value.
All I'm saying is that these things need to be judged on their individual merits.
BTW. I don't include restoration that is meant to deceive. It should be stated what has been done, but that does not make it a sin.
The original cases on the old Rolex’s are made from a single blanked piece of metal. Punched from a strip of that metal in a mechanical press. Followed by finished machining and polishing. Once you add any filler rod to repair a ding, there’s always inclusions from dissimilar metals welded on to the repair and the constituents in the filler rod that can introduce unseen corrosion characteristics. IMO.... it’s not a good idea filling a diver watch with dissimilar metals on its case using any welding process. A better idea would be to replace the case. A diver watch needs to be impervious to corrosion for any kind due to it nature. This type of repair thing compromises the authenticity of the watches function. Especially if it’s used as intended, for water submersion.
Very interesting...I wonder what kind of metal they use to laser weld - 904L?
Austin Daniels..... Austin, id say 305 welding wire for 905L stainless is comparable. It’s a close material constituents but if you weld material that might of been previously heat treated there’s always changes in the parent metal once welding is preformed.
What is laser welding??
Does Rolex use laser welding in their restoring of a vintage piece?
Good question. I'd be really surprised if they did!
WAHL trimmer Austin. Just saying pal and I am a beard guy. Keep it neat. 😀👍❤⌚⌚⌚⌚
He needs to trim that asap
I do think that laser welding has a place here. Certainly it makes sense for bracelet and clasp repair applications and for broken or severely damaged lugs. However, I feel that laser welding on a case, solely to address aesthetic issues resulting from over-polishing, is something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis (pun-intended). Regardless, there is a greater issue here. One surely has to make a distinction between laser welding on a four or perhaps a later five digit vintage sport model. Furthermore, why draw the line at laser welding? Doesn't this argument apply to a host of non-reversible procedures like reluming of hands and various dial restoration techniques, bracelet restoration, etc...and don't even get me started on the addition of "reproduction" or counterfeit parts to these pieces. Given that period-correct vintage parts for many references are now all but unobtainable, what is perceived to be correct is somewhat fluid. Given the enormous price delta between the very few investment grade vintage pieces out there and their counterparts of more dubious composition, there is ample incentive to push the originality envelope. Laser welding is just one procedure amongst many that comprise this slippery slope. Now that many if us are sheltering in place and have more time than usual on our hands, perhaps the community should tackle this...no time like the present.
Laser welding totally destroys the "vintage feel" of the watch and eliminates the balance between the patinated dial/hands, lightly scratched plastic glass, the worn bracelet/clasp AND the refinished case.
I hate it when dealers (on Instagram) present a very old and expensive Rollie Sub with a laser welded case as being in "very good condition", "near mind", "collectible" etc. which it is NOT!
If you decide to laser weld the case why not exchange the dial/hands with new one(s) also while your at it? See? It makes no sense! Buy a new watch if you hate old/vintage ones.
In my opinion by laser welding the watch you exclude the entire collector community from being interested in your watch should you want to sell it.
Dude, you look more and more like Kenny Powers everyday!
Laser welded watches, such a first world problem
Scott S
Why are you here then?
Great video Austin and I completely agree with you. Definitely something to think about though.
How would you know if the vintage pieces you own weren’t laser welded?
This is why buying vintage is such a gamble.
I don't know that you could tell. I guess if a 30 year-old piece looks a little too minty, that could tip you off. (But what if they tell you it was a safe queen!)
Austin Daniels exactly. A private sale with original owner probably the closest you will get to being sure. I could never trust a “mint” vintage piece from a dealer.
5L not sure a loupe will show laser welding.
Look, it’s a watch that is being used, it’s not a prime museum piece. If it was a museum piece we wouldn’t touch it. But it’s just a thing. if you want scratches you can have your scratches, if you want polish, then polish it. You like damaged dials and hands? You can have patina. You want laser welding? Weld away. I personally don’t want a polish I don’t want patina and if a watch is so f’ed up you need to put metal back on it is that watch really worth it? At some point the object has been “destroyed” and needs to be replAced in its entirety.
Ah, you raise an interesting question. Which is more favorable, a laser welded original case, or a minty replacement case from Rolex?
Austin Daniels if I owned a watch that my use of it made it sooo bad I would either keep it as is for the memories or replace parts and make it a franken knowing it is MY Franken because my life is too hard on a Rolex - and take pride in that
This topic has me truly rethink my view on refurbishing vintage watches. The owner has the right to have a case remanufactured however there comes a responsibility to disclose that information if the watch is sold at a later date. To do otherwise would be theft and fraud. Thanks for sharing this Austin.
Appreciate that - thanks!
You’re talking conservation vs restoration. This is the dilemma when dealing with vintage goods. Look at vintage cars. They often undergo extensive restoration, with rust cut away and new panels welded on. Is this wrong? There are many vintage watches that have been over polished, leaving the case misshapen and the lugs thin. The case is essentially ruined. I see nothing wrong with bringing this original case back to its factory specifications and giving the watch a new lease on life. Your analogy of someone making dials, hands and papers indistinguishable from the OEM parts is not a good one, as you’re talking about making parts from scratch, essentially counterfeit, as opposed to taking an original part and restoring it. Very different.
never mind the watch.. Austin is turning into catweazle
Phist
Mate what is that on your face
Does that facial hair and mop head ruin you?
are you homeless?