I think part of the problem might be the "one-on-one" combat mechanics of Attila itself. I was watching an interesting video on Dark Age warfare, and the one point (forgive the pun) the narrator made was that the most dangerous foe on the battlefield was not the one in front of you, but the one diagonal or to the side. A spear wall was effective because there was just that: a lot of spears. It's easy to focus on the guy directly ahead, but the guy on his right could easily get a quick jab in on your leg when you're not looking. This isn't possible in Attila's engine: if you watch each pikeman, they are all jabbing at one particular enemy at any time. There's no room, like in Rome I, for an allied soldier to help out his friend by taking out a distracted enemy. So instead of a wall of pikes, you just have a line of cheap spearmen on the losing end of the 1v1 stats game. Kinda defeats the purpose, if you ask me.
Had a grassland battle and won against 2500 romans with my 700 troops, pikemen doing majority of the work. Found a defend-able area and just locked myself in. Troops behind pikes going forward when my pikes had made the enemy exhausted to route them. Pikes definitely have their place.
Movies View A firm line of noble pikemen can stand in the way of any heavy infantry charge at the front. The key is finding a way to cover your flanks and using highland rabble as cannon fodder.
^ If you support pikes with other infantry in a choke point it is almost impossible to break through them. I usually use them for choke points near my town center(so that the enemy has used most of his ammo on archers) with a sword unit in shield wall just in front of them. I have had pike units get hundreds of kills like that. They protect the swordsmen from cav and the swordsmen don't let anyone push on them.
They're insanely useful on siege battles as a defender, park them in front of a gate and place a shield wall of spearmen just in front of them (so the pikes still poke through) and you protect them from incoming missile units while impaling the enemy who sprint straight into the pikes
I bought total war Rome Alexander and I used to put pike on where I assumed the siege towers would land troops and if they landed there all I had to do was watch my pikes rank up the kills
i know you are 5 years ol comment but... did your pikes were behind or "inside" some spear formation? because the bonus of the spears are passed to the pikes too, you know, to hold the line and protection against missiles.
@@mariano98ify It was indeed a long time ago and apart from anything else like 800 hours of gameplay ago if you only count Attila but they would have been in the walls (in the streets) and would have been on their own no units "inside" them so just a street based infantry grind.
@@mariano98ify The video also has no archery units so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything :S - In any case I found pike units worked fine throughout my whole Byzantine campaign and they where kinda my favorite infantry unit possibly because they are quite difficult to use properly however it is granted that I don't think the Eastern Empire get Pikes till quite late in the game so they would be T3 infantry not trashy badly armoured and trained militia or anything... Pikes did reasonably well against the Monguls, barbarians, Eastern and Greek(succesor) factions think I only really struggled with missile heavy armies but still won the vast majority of the battles. Given I am responding directly to this video which is melee units only can you tell me what your point as in regards to the shooters thing because I don't get it at all :S
CA could conceivably make pikes useful and relevant again in rome 2 and attila without even fixing the pike mechanics. If the price of all pike units was cut in half (220 for levy pikes,610 for companions) it would be possible to bring a dense continuous pike formation capable of killing enough to be cost effective, while leaving the player with plenty of money for skirmishers and cav. This would also better reflect the way pike formations were used historically rather than small spaghetti lines of expensive pikes. It would of course be ideal if CA simply fixed the pike mechanics, but it looks as if that's not happening.
what you forgot to mention that these pikemen are at least 2x cheaper than their enemies, so if they actually beated them that would mean they are very OP
I usually use pikemen as my base troops, when the Huns come in with mass cavalry attacks. I just put some archers from behind and melee infantry to attack from the rear with cavalry. Although I prefer the just using heavy melee and spearmen/archers as the Romans.
Interesting. I would assume that pikes cannot stand the concentrated arrow fire which huns can deliver. Is it because of poor AI behaviour or do you goad the huns to direct their fire at, say, a testudo?
You are letting the pikes receive, but you aren't commanding them to attack - not giving them the order to try and push forward. I have had successes with Elite Ostro pike against infantry and it is my position that they are better when used aggressively and used in medium thick ranks up to really stretched lines to pin and poke into enemies (of course the wide lines are more for cav and to stop cav charges). They also benefit from being overlapped, especially if this allows one pike to fold and push into the enemies of another pike as opportunity allows. So thank you for your video and work, but pikes are better used aggressively. You may also be amused to know, Menauloi elite pike from Eastern Rome have a rapid advance special ability, and can be used to pull off a nice charge when not in pike formation. Cheers for the video.
@@Champion_Eternal If you put a unit of legio in defensive testudo right ontop of the pikes they don't take damage from arrows but you can also use takanukid pikes because they have a big shield
Tip: Pikes do not win battles. Their main function is to lock the engagers so you can outflank them with melee infantry or cavalry. I use Pikes, and they won me almost every battle
i dont know what your talking about pikes in rome 2 being useless in frontal engagements... Pikemen in Rome 2 were gods as compaired to all other melee units. (beat on legendary with sparta with no battles lost and no autobattles)
I usually have no problem with beating any melee units with pikes as long as i give an Attack order, if i just let them stand there and get attacked they get crushed, but when i give an attack order, the pikemen start pushing and actually do some damage, I tested with cheap Nordic Pikemen vs elite WRE infantry, and they got crushed every. single. time.
Looks disappointing, I've always loved pikes since using them as Oda in Shogun 2 Total War. The Long Yari Ashigaru (in Yari Wall) + Oda Matchlock Ashigaru, together in a Pike & Shot configuration was totally OP.
They should buff the pike mechanic so that a gothic pikeman can win a 3 vs 1 on the front if morale is turned off when sword type units like legio-upgrades attack. They should be just as bad when they are penetrated, but it should be harder to penetrate on the FRONT.
I think if you give the pikes an attack order before they make contact they perform much better. This seemed to be the case when I was testing a while back.
Pikes are super useful if you know how to use it right. Aside from absolutely destroying any cavalry or low armored melee unit charging from the front, with its high AP damage it can hold against nearly any unit for enough time until you out maneuver your enemy with your cavalry or melee infantry.
I don't understand why you are expecting levies that cost 240 to beat a 400 palatina...... the shear difference in quality will result in their fail...... try actually pitting the units of the same quality against each other for a actually fair test?
That's because pikes are supposed to be able to counter infantry of any type besides other pikes. What we know as FACT is that historically, when the Macedonians introduced their Foot Companions in battle, battle tactics were thrown upside down in the west.
Total War: Attila - Garamantian FreeLC and Patch details Fixed a bug causing units in a set stance e.g. spear wall, to drop their stance when engaging with the enemy. The affected units would engage the enemy without remaining in formation, and move away from their stationary location set by the player, ending up in a different location/position to where the player put them.
Vs players, pikes suck. Vs NPC, even in Attila, Pikes are the ULTIMATE weapon and extremely cheap as well. Especially in defensive battles in which the NPC must come to you; but in offensive fights vs npc as well. I frequently go into massively outnumbered battles vs superior, top tier high value NPC stacks that both outnumber and outclass me. I bring at least 8 of the basic, cheap, immediately available pike unit the Jutes have access to, in every army, and the rest of the stacks go ranged and/or cavalry mix. Deploy pikes in a octagon (8 sides, no harsh edges), shoulder to shoulder, so that each formation touches the one next to it; in defensive mode; on the highest point in my deployment zone. 8-sided wall of pikes. If I have more pikes, or spearmen, I make a second line within the pike line. General I spread in a thin line in the center of the octagon. Ranged units I put in the center, spread out and loose formation to fill the center of the octagon, but with the units overlapping and facing each direction. Most units in defensive mode. After all that deployment, I just sit and wait in my octagon at the top of the hill. By the time the enemy army reaches you, they are exhausted. The pike walls I make thick, always at least 5+ deep; as deep as I can, while having 8 sides of pikes shoulder to shoulder, and physical space for all ranged units in the center. This works vs anything but artillery. Vs artillery, must have at least a unit or two of horsemen to flank and disable the artillery; but still works. Also works in sieges; just find some buildings to block some sides, and it reduces how many pikemen you need for 360 degree coverage. This works out in a victory or heroic defeat pretty much every time. Generally I lose due to eventual morale break vs 5x+ enemy odds; but even then, I do such massive insane damage to the vastly superior numbers/vastly expensive units, it is still a win really. You cant be flanked or surrounded and the pikemen eat literally everything in front of them. They wont break, with the general in the middle and thick ranks. My cheap as chips pikemen, with a general and a few shitty slingers as backup, regularly eat large stacks of 4k+ top-tier end game armies. Again, vs NPC only, and again, vs artillery require some cavalry units for this to still work.
I'll tell you why they made pikes like this: It's because the developers didn't trust the opposing AI enough in beating them. You said it yourself; pikes are most vulnerable to flanking tactics, yet here we see the enemy blindly charging head-first into a mob of them. What are we to make of this? Hmm... Instead of making the AI smarter in beating pikes, the developers circumvented the issue by simply nerfing the pikes.
great test. i never knew the ranks effected their ability to fight. that they would do better in 3 or more ranks then 2. ive beebn strecthed them thin to 2 ranks to cover more ground. great video!
Historically pikes took a hell of a time beating. The romans were beaten 3 times in a row before finally defeating Pyrrus. Alexander used heavy hoplites with his phalanx which makes sense to protect them
pikes are beaten the moment you get beyond the point , there is even mention of pikes having issues when walking across ground with a lot of corpses , and ofc you cant magicaly kill 20 men with a single pike animation as is often the case in total war lmao
pikes are for defending cities/towns and block a road/gateway they work wonders and are a force multiplier, in open field battles I'd rather take decent spearmen.
hmm pikes are a lot cheaper at least. I also think byzantine pikes are better, they have 40 melee attack and generally better stats. Don't think they will be a mainline infantry, but could be a useful supporting second line.
Its almost like Pikes are only practical (possible?) in your main doomstack and when its supported by another full doomstack. Like when you start putting cav in a separate army
I dont have this game yet but I would think that sending cavalry around the infantry flanks and into the rear would destroy them with the pikes holding them at bay. They still have a use but the role is much more limited which makes sense during the time period.
In rome 1 on smaller unit scales, you could put archers right in front of pikemen in phalanx (inside the pikes). This way the pikes would keep enemies away while the archers fired volley after volley. Didn`t always work though...
in rome 2, the sucessor states were supposed to field very well drilled phalanxes, the pikes in this period we're not as well drilled, that and CA has given up on the mechanics for pikes
But the pikes are so fucking good especially in siege defence holy shit. I had 2 pike divisions holding against 10 hun divisions in one door way and damn they hold it very nicely. I did have some nice archers backing em up but it looked SUPER cool.
When I use Pike, I also use good archers, or crossbow men. Because Pikemen give some distance to the first encounter. Your archers can still shoot, if in the right position, while the enemy cannot. Legit killed 40 units that way, while only having 20. Out right engagements though, Pikes will lose.
Had an army with 6 pikes-elite ones- 5 agathrysi warriors and 6 taifali cav.I was able to win batles against the sassanids but took too much damage if I was too long in batle.Pikesblok, agathrysi do the flanking thing and the taifali cav actually did a lot.I would draw AI into mylines, skirmish then, flank them, hunt them. It was cool but for the game mechanics on pikes it wasnt that effective.Pikes should die less and inflict a bit more damage. Then I think it would be a very balanced unit.
No ofense to Maximus but all thease testing videos should be considert pointless because thease tests are made when the game was just released even 2 to 3 months later all of thease mistakes bugs and all oter shit things were fixed there was quite a lot of balancing. So i suggest remake all thease test otherwise thease tests are pointless and meaningless
Maybe they do better against lightly armored units? If I remember correctly they don't deal a lot of armor pen damage. Dunno. A shame. At least they can run and they're pretty good at attacking from the sides. But they are easy to charge into their rear then... Yeah. Never really used pikes in Attila
I didnt try yet but i think they are only good on gates when you put them in triangle position(2 or more units) Maybe you should try that. Pikemans are my favorite unit cuz i ve been playing Rome total war for a long time with Greeks and when i see this in Attila, its so sad... :( #FeelsBadMan
i miss so much adventuros pikemen of the portugese faction in medieval total war 2... so strong. you could take 9 of these units, then 6 units of musketeers, then 2 units of heavy cavalry, the rest basiliscus artillery and you coul win easily win also against tartars who have elephans artillery.
In the "new" school of latin you read "c" as "k" almost always so "domestiki". The "ch" is called "italisation" because, probably, Romans didn't spell "c" that way (and also not as normal "c")
luke3t6 Very well. Though they're vulnerable to ranged attacks, the Romans found that they couldn't penetrate a Macedonian pike wall frontally using their shields, or cut the shafts with their swords. The long range and multiple ranks of spear points makes pike formations mobile meat grinders. Though the pike was heavy and unwieldy, it was also heavy; that thrust would have a good amount of force, and even if some of it was absorbed by the flex of the pole, he could keep doing it. And you couldn't. However, their downside was that they were cumbersome and unwieldy; using them right required good tactical command and battlefield awareness on top of good troop discipline. Later on, Swiss Mercenaries made it their thing and had quite a reputation. It's worth noting that the times when pike formations fought each other, the Italians would call it "Bad War" for a reason. When one mobile meat grinder meets another, things get bloody, fast.
Correct, lightly armored shock units are quite weak as they have no defense to the pikes continuous attack. Also horses get blown up if they try to charge pikes, I find that helpful for forming a line vs Huns.
Pikes (especially those with expert charge defense) will slaughter shock infantry without taking losses. The only units that can beat pikes headon without getting around them is high armor low charge infantry and even then the best heavy infantry (without javelins) will lose 1/3 or even half of its unit vs a cheap pike unit. As long as you screen pikes from ranged units they are very powerful for there price for defense at least for offense they are bad.
Pikes are powerful defensive units but not very flexible which means in Online battles not really worth using as they require too much micro management compared to say a good spear unit. In single player they are quite good at holding a chokepoint as outside of High armor/health infantry they destroy most other units and even vs heavy infantry they will hold their ground much longer then other units for the price.
you dont use pikes like that. You put a unit of crap infantry right in the pike formation, a little bit in front of them, the pike can attack through the allied units and are in no danger to get into 1v1 combat. Works exceptionally in sieges. I have seen 1k kills+ on germanic pike units. if you ask me, they are the best units for sieges. If you are attacking a breach in the wall, send your offensive infantry in and then walk your pikemen into the friendly blob, so that their pikes can reach the enemy, but they are not in direct contact with the unit. This way the pikes do damange but receive none themselves.
I was completely racked throwing my swordman over pikemen in one online battle. Of course , they were under arrow fire, but it was the same for the pikemen, why that?
Hey maximus quick question. When you installed Attila did you have anything running in the background while downloading. I'm having a major issue and I wanted to know if you had anything downloading in the background
acutally i ahve seen pikemen 1 shot kill medium gothic infantry when they ccharge, yes , you heard me, i saw them 5 rank deep, instakillign charging melee units, they jsut ran to the pikes and obviously, dropped dead once they got hit by them, almost 30 men down in the first colission, it might have to do with how much armor the guys actually had.
Maximus Decimus Meridius yep, i think teh pikes are also good agianst low armor infantry, makes no sense tought, since the pikes are actually pretty good to go trought chainmail and armor.
Well a man can only realistically fight as hard as he can for 15 minutes. And that's if he's well rested. I guess they made it the way it is for "strategical value"
that means you're wasting army slots that could be used for sword infantry or cavalry or archers, all which could counter and out maneuver these shitty pikes
I feel like you have made a mistake in this test. I noticed all your units that attack where in a run/sprint mode by the time they clashed with enemies their status was either Tired or Winded yet the opponent was on a fresh mode. so you forgot to include that since that is very important in the game.
I feel like pikes should have way more attack and damage. And should have more men per unit to compensate for their need to stay in a deep formation to be effective. Also maybe CA should make very light missile cav Able to outrun exhausted heavy cav. Fuck you CA you got my horse skirmishers killed.
I see what you are getting at here, historically though pikes were not a hugely effective weapon against infantry. Most of the time pikes were used to hold infantry at bay on the charge and continue to hold as long as they could to slow the enemy, eventually though men would push through the pike wall and make their way to the men at the front of the formation where it wouldnt be hugely difficult to hack them down.and slowly push your way through the formation. Though i agree that a lot of these units are falling far too quickly i think this actually a step in the right direction for the pike units. In Rome II the pike units were incredibly OP (at least at first, unsure as to the state of this recently) and were dealing as much damage as most of the more offensive melee units, which for a defensive unit i just didnt feel was balanced enough.
Rome 2 was balanced for a time on which bronze cuirass was one of the strongest armor available. Pikes are still murder machines against poorly-armored soldiers (particularly on charge as the charge bonus get reflected right back) but they get overwhelmed by any mail-wearing infantry.
Honestly this game has disappointed me... Seriously. Spears and Pikes are the BEST weapons in formation because you can keep people at a distance. Swords and Axes beating spears and pikes makes NO SENSE. They were SIDEARMS that you could use to kill people up close. Same with Archers, they were obviously effective as skirmishers in history, yet they don’t do shit at all against Infantry and Cav in this game.
thats the point lol , if you get beyond the point of a pike the pikeman essentialy lost his only advantage , which is one of the things the romans did , get close even if it means making a breach with dead men , and even tho the spear was the most common weapon it wasnt the only weapon , and at the end of the day this is a game which means nonsense is bound to happen
This is exactly how pikes should perform. I can see a horse walking right into a stick, not so much a person. RIP Pike Square the world is better without you.
![An Actual Guide to the Alans [Total War: Attila]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-9xipwq3nrs/mqdefault.jpg)
so the new strategy to beat pikes from the front is to right click them.
Hehe, yes.
Maximus Decimus Meridius seems legit
xXJeReMiAhXx99 just go and see rome 2 and medieval 2 pikes
Charge a Gothic Pikes out of phalanx into Gothic Pikes in phalanx. Watch the charging unit win.
:(
Rhian Meaney That's....a great way to test that.
I think part of the problem might be the "one-on-one" combat mechanics of Attila itself. I was watching an interesting video on Dark Age warfare, and the one point (forgive the pun) the narrator made was that the most dangerous foe on the battlefield was not the one in front of you, but the one diagonal or to the side. A spear wall was effective because there was just that: a lot of spears. It's easy to focus on the guy directly ahead, but the guy on his right could easily get a quick jab in on your leg when you're not looking. This isn't possible in Attila's engine: if you watch each pikeman, they are all jabbing at one particular enemy at any time. There's no room, like in Rome I, for an allied soldier to help out his friend by taking out a distracted enemy. So instead of a wall of pikes, you just have a line of cheap spearmen on the losing end of the 1v1 stats game. Kinda defeats the purpose, if you ask me.
Lindybeige?
@@mitchrils
Huzza !
This is why battles in the newer TWs are terrible compared to Rome 1 and Medieval 2
@@21Arrozito We need a total war 4 engine,
Had a grassland battle and won against 2500 romans with my 700 troops, pikemen doing majority of the work. Found a defend-able area and just locked myself in. Troops behind pikes going forward when my pikes had made the enemy exhausted to route them. Pikes definitely have their place.
Very powerful defensive infantry. Just think of them as spear men on crack but very low mobility.
Pikes are very good for holding a line with archers behind.
So pikes went back to vanilla Medieval 2 uselessness? :(
yeah in medieval 2 they are totaly usless
you actually dont need them
Movies View
Shame, considering I enjoyed using pikes in RTW and hoped they would be good in M2, especially with Scotland
Seth Kiparis scotland have good pikemen but they cant stand a chance against swordmen heavy infantry
Movies View A firm line of noble pikemen can stand in the way of any heavy infantry charge at the front. The key is finding a way to cover your flanks and using highland rabble as cannon fodder.
SlyBiffrons they always pass thro
put pikes right behind a shieldwall... theyll rack up kills
^ If you support pikes with other infantry in a choke point it is almost impossible to break through them. I usually use them for choke points near my town center(so that the enemy has used most of his ammo on archers) with a sword unit in shield wall just in front of them. I have had pike units get hundreds of kills like that. They protect the swordsmen from cav and the swordsmen don't let anyone push on them.
Try to put 2 or even 3 cheap germanic pikes in a choke point in the city. It's impossible to break through. It's best way to defend cities
Heh, got 300+ kills on a Mercenary Germanic Pikemen unit like that :p
i had 650 on 1 single merc pike unit a few days ago, supported by protectores demestici
Wow, that sounds super awesome, to get elephant-level carnage on a pike unit XD
Protectores Domestici are also a pretty underrated defensive unit imo.
They're insanely useful on siege battles as a defender, park them in front of a gate and place a shield wall of spearmen just in front of them (so the pikes still poke through) and you protect them from incoming missile units while impaling the enemy who sprint straight into the pikes
I bought total war Rome Alexander and I used to put pike on where I assumed the siege towers would land troops and if they landed there all I had to do was watch my pikes rank up the kills
That is like stacking and it’s kinda like cheating nowadays
I assume this got fixed since my byzantine pikes get 500+ kills in defensve city battle for the loss of 50-70 men..
I mean it has to have been. It makes 0 sense logically
i know you are 5 years ol comment but... did your pikes were behind or "inside" some spear formation? because the bonus of the spears are passed to the pikes too, you know, to hold the line and protection against missiles.
@@mariano98ify It was indeed a long time ago and apart from anything else like 800 hours of gameplay ago if you only count Attila but they would have been in the walls (in the streets) and would have been on their own no units "inside" them so just a street based infantry grind.
@@Delogros and I guess the enemy were barbarians of light armor with a lack of "shooters" units?
@@mariano98ify The video also has no archery units so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything :S - In any case I found pike units worked fine throughout my whole Byzantine campaign and they where kinda my favorite infantry unit possibly because they are quite difficult to use properly however it is granted that I don't think the Eastern Empire get Pikes till quite late in the game so they would be T3 infantry not trashy badly armoured and trained militia or anything...
Pikes did reasonably well against the Monguls, barbarians, Eastern and Greek(succesor) factions think I only really struggled with missile heavy armies but still won the vast majority of the battles.
Given I am responding directly to this video which is melee units only can you tell me what your point as in regards to the shooters thing because I don't get it at all :S
CA could conceivably make pikes useful and relevant again in rome 2 and attila without even fixing the pike mechanics. If the price of all pike units was cut in half (220 for levy pikes,610 for companions) it would be possible to bring a dense continuous pike formation capable of killing enough to be cost effective, while leaving the player with plenty of money for skirmishers and cav. This would also better reflect the way pike formations were used historically rather than small spaghetti lines of expensive pikes.
It would of course be ideal if CA simply fixed the pike mechanics, but it looks as if that's not happening.
what you forgot to mention that these pikemen are at least 2x cheaper than their enemies, so if they actually beated them that would mean they are very OP
I usually use pikemen as my base troops, when the Huns come in with mass cavalry attacks. I just put some archers from behind and melee infantry to attack from the rear with cavalry. Although I prefer the just using heavy melee and spearmen/archers as the Romans.
Interesting. I would assume that pikes cannot stand the concentrated arrow fire which huns can deliver. Is it because of poor AI behaviour or do you goad the huns to direct their fire at, say, a testudo?
You are letting the pikes receive, but you aren't commanding them to attack - not giving them the order to try and push forward. I have had successes with Elite Ostro pike against infantry and it is my position that they are better when used aggressively and used in medium thick ranks up to really stretched lines to pin and poke into enemies (of course the wide lines are more for cav and to stop cav charges). They also benefit from being overlapped, especially if this allows one pike to fold and push into the enemies of another pike as opportunity allows.
So thank you for your video and work, but pikes are better used aggressively. You may also be amused to know, Menauloi elite pike from Eastern Rome have a rapid advance special ability, and can be used to pull off a nice charge when not in pike formation. Cheers for the video.
Pikes are insanely good in a defensive battle where you hold down corridors and thus cant be flanked.
maybe you should mention that to people.
thats when ranged units come in handy. pikes cant block arrows for anything
@@Champion_Eternal If you put a unit of legio in defensive testudo right ontop of the pikes they don't take damage from arrows but you can also use takanukid pikes because they have a big shield
just as i bought attila , the first thing came to my mind, lets go and check them sweet vids of maximus explaining mechanics :D. cheers
I guess pikes could still be quite useful in a siege defense.
Very much so.
Tip: Pikes do not win battles. Their main function is to lock the engagers so you can outflank them with melee infantry or cavalry. I use Pikes, and they won me almost every battle
i dont know what your talking about pikes in rome 2 being useless in frontal engagements... Pikemen in Rome 2 were gods as compaired to all other melee units. (beat on legendary with sparta with no battles lost and no autobattles)
Pre-patch, they were a godly unit type against all but missiles in Rome 2. After several patches... not so much.
you are realy realy realy wrong. Pike win n any 1 vs 1 engagement in rome 2. They have their weakness but that it not one of them.
I usually have no problem with beating any melee units with pikes as long as i give an Attack order, if i just let them stand there and get attacked they get crushed, but when i give an attack order, the pikemen start pushing and actually do some damage, I tested with cheap Nordic Pikemen vs elite WRE infantry, and they got crushed every. single. time.
I really like pikemen probably my favourite unit In the game especially when a nooby player runs their cav into it. :)
Looks disappointing, I've always loved pikes since using them as Oda in Shogun 2 Total War. The Long Yari Ashigaru (in Yari Wall) + Oda Matchlock Ashigaru, together in a Pike & Shot configuration was totally OP.
They should buff the pike mechanic so that a gothic pikeman can win a 3 vs 1 on the front if morale is turned off when sword type units like legio-upgrades attack. They should be just as bad when they are penetrated, but it should be harder to penetrate on the FRONT.
But that doesn't make sense, spears and pikes were op in real life...
Man, when your pikes are killed by Praeventores, you know it is time to call quits.
I think if you give the pikes an attack order before they make contact they perform much better. This seemed to be the case when I was testing a while back.
Pikes are super useful if you know how to use it right. Aside from absolutely destroying any cavalry or low armored melee unit charging from the front, with its high AP damage it can hold against nearly any unit for enough time until you out maneuver your enemy with your cavalry or melee infantry.
I don't understand why you are expecting levies that cost 240 to beat a 400 palatina...... the shear difference in quality will result in their fail...... try actually pitting the units of the same quality against each other for a actually fair test?
D Game Because history has proven that tactics win battles. For the most part at least.
Skel Neldory what a shitty argument
JD It really isn't. You could be a veteran legionary with 25 years' experience, but you'll never have more reach than a peasant with a 15 foot pike.
@@JD-jl4yy how is that a shitty argument? Tactics are literally the most important factor in battle other than technology you dumbass
That's because pikes are supposed to be able to counter infantry of any type besides other pikes. What we know as FACT is that historically, when the Macedonians introduced their Foot Companions in battle, battle tactics were thrown upside down in the west.
Pikes from the front were over powered AF in Rome 1
*laughs in defensive bridge battles with greeks
Total War: Attila - Garamantian FreeLC and Patch details
Fixed a bug causing units in a set stance e.g. spear wall, to drop their stance when engaging with the enemy. The affected units would engage the enemy without remaining in formation, and move away from their stationary location set by the player, ending up in a different location/position to where the player put them.
Vs players, pikes suck. Vs NPC, even in Attila, Pikes are the ULTIMATE weapon and extremely cheap as well. Especially in defensive battles in which the NPC must come to you; but in offensive fights vs npc as well. I frequently go into massively outnumbered battles vs superior, top tier high value NPC stacks that both outnumber and outclass me. I bring at least 8 of the basic, cheap, immediately available pike unit the Jutes have access to, in every army, and the rest of the stacks go ranged and/or cavalry mix. Deploy pikes in a octagon (8 sides, no harsh edges), shoulder to shoulder, so that each formation touches the one next to it; in defensive mode; on the highest point in my deployment zone. 8-sided wall of pikes. If I have more pikes, or spearmen, I make a second line within the pike line. General I spread in a thin line in the center of the octagon. Ranged units I put in the center, spread out and loose formation to fill the center of the octagon, but with the units overlapping and facing each direction. Most units in defensive mode.
After all that deployment, I just sit and wait in my octagon at the top of the hill. By the time the enemy army reaches you, they are exhausted. The pike walls I make thick, always at least 5+ deep; as deep as I can, while having 8 sides of pikes shoulder to shoulder, and physical space for all ranged units in the center.
This works vs anything but artillery. Vs artillery, must have at least a unit or two of horsemen to flank and disable the artillery; but still works.
Also works in sieges; just find some buildings to block some sides, and it reduces how many pikemen you need for 360 degree coverage.
This works out in a victory or heroic defeat pretty much every time. Generally I lose due to eventual morale break vs 5x+ enemy odds; but even then, I do such massive insane damage to the vastly superior numbers/vastly expensive units, it is still a win really.
You cant be flanked or surrounded and the pikemen eat literally everything in front of them. They wont break, with the general in the middle and thick ranks.
My cheap as chips pikemen, with a general and a few shitty slingers as backup, regularly eat large stacks of 4k+ top-tier end game armies. Again, vs NPC only, and again, vs artillery require some cavalry units for this to still work.
I'll tell you why they made pikes like this: It's because the developers didn't trust the opposing AI enough in beating them. You said it yourself; pikes are most vulnerable to flanking tactics, yet here we see the enemy blindly charging head-first into a mob of them. What are we to make of this? Hmm...
Instead of making the AI smarter in beating pikes, the developers circumvented the issue by simply nerfing the pikes.
great test. i never knew the ranks effected their ability to fight. that they would do better in 3 or more ranks then 2. ive beebn strecthed them thin to 2 ranks to cover more ground. great video!
Historically pikes took a hell of a time beating. The romans were beaten 3 times in a row before finally defeating Pyrrus. Alexander used heavy hoplites with his phalanx which makes sense to protect them
pikes are beaten the moment you get beyond the point , there is even mention of pikes having issues when walking across ground with a lot of corpses , and ofc you cant magicaly kill 20 men with a single pike animation as is often the case in total war lmao
pikes are for defending cities/towns and block a road/gateway they work wonders and are a force multiplier, in open field battles I'd rather take decent spearmen.
Disappointing, I really was hoping to field ostrogothic pike armies
You can, as long as you have cavalry :D
Maximus Decimus Meridius The ostrogothic ones seem very powerfull, at least better compared to the gothics imo.
hmm pikes are a lot cheaper at least. I also think byzantine pikes are better, they have 40 melee attack and generally better stats. Don't think they will be a mainline infantry, but could be a useful supporting second line.
Nice for protecting from cavalry at least.
Its almost like Pikes are only practical (possible?) in your main doomstack and when its supported by another full doomstack. Like when you start putting cav in a separate army
I dont have this game yet but I would think that sending cavalry around the infantry flanks and into the rear would destroy them with the pikes holding them at bay. They still have a use but the role is much more limited which makes sense during the time period.
Put a shield wall unit in front of the Pikes but behind the pike tips. They still fight and become a force multiplier.
In rome 1 on smaller unit scales, you could put archers right in front of pikemen in phalanx (inside the pikes). This way the pikes would keep enemies away while the archers fired volley after volley. Didn`t always work though...
I overlapped 3 tier 1 pike units on a road and they rekt the enemy harder than any spartan could
ON THE WATCH
I thought it to be impossible for Attila to field even more useless and crappier pikemen than Rome 2... CA just surprised me!
in rome 2, the sucessor states were supposed to field very well drilled phalanxes, the pikes in this period we're not as well drilled, that and CA has given up on the mechanics for pikes
There is actually no evidence for pikemen at all in this period :/ It's even worst than hoplites in rome2
PIKES FRONT ARCHERS BEHIND !!!
Cool video, useful info, thanks
But the pikes are so fucking good especially in siege defence holy shit.
I had 2 pike divisions holding against 10 hun divisions in one door way and damn they hold it very nicely.
I did have some nice archers backing em up but it looked SUPER cool.
This is going to ruin my strategy of posing pikes head on making anyone who remember Rome 2 afraid to charge head on them T__T
Pikes destroy units with lower armor and all horse units.
When I use Pike, I also use good archers, or crossbow men. Because Pikemen give some distance to the first encounter. Your archers can still shoot, if in the right position, while the enemy cannot. Legit killed 40 units that way, while only having 20. Out right engagements though, Pikes will lose.
I think you are not considering they are going even when in good formation and cost way less than most things that will charge them
Yeah, but these goths aren't chest naked Greek champions XD
Had an army with 6 pikes-elite ones- 5 agathrysi warriors and 6 taifali cav.I was able to win batles against the sassanids but took too much damage if I was too long in batle.Pikesblok, agathrysi do the flanking thing and the taifali cav actually did a lot.I would draw AI into mylines, skirmish then, flank them, hunt them. It was cool but for the game mechanics on pikes it wasnt that effective.Pikes should die less and inflict a bit more damage. Then I think it would be a very balanced unit.
If u use pike in front u need melee in back to supports, I use pikes behind me spear men, to support them, it work good so far.
No ofense to Maximus but all thease testing videos should be considert pointless because thease tests are made when the game was just released even 2 to 3 months later all of thease mistakes bugs and all oter shit things were fixed there was quite a lot of balancing. So i suggest remake all thease test otherwise thease tests are pointless and meaningless
So in short, not to use any pikes in army composition.
The more pikes you have fighting in a tight, thick formation the better. The ostrogoths and eastern Romans have the best pikes.
Pikes are there to kill cavalry and hold choke-points.
Maybe they do better against lightly armored units? If I remember correctly they don't deal a lot of armor pen damage. Dunno. A shame. At least they can run and they're pretty good at attacking from the sides. But they are easy to charge into their rear then... Yeah. Never really used pikes in Attila
I put pikes inside melee infantry with a shield wall
Ok so what stats would improve them? At least they are more useful than Empire's pikemen...
I didnt try yet but i think they are only good on gates when you put them in triangle position(2 or more units) Maybe you should try that. Pikemans are my favorite unit cuz i ve been playing Rome total war for a long time with Greeks and when i see this in Attila, its so sad... :( #FeelsBadMan
i miss so much adventuros pikemen of the portugese faction in medieval total war 2... so strong. you could take 9 of these units, then 6 units of musketeers, then 2 units of heavy cavalry, the rest basiliscus artillery and you coul win easily win also against tartars who have elephans artillery.
In the "new" school of latin you read "c" as "k" almost always so "domestiki". The "ch" is called "italisation" because, probably, Romans didn't spell "c" that way (and also not as normal "c")
Pike or Hoplites post-roman era is almost useless. Spam missle, dead in 30 sec.
Do you think that Pikes should be more powerful?
Historically how did they fair in battle?
luke3t6 Very well.
Though they're vulnerable to ranged attacks, the Romans found that they couldn't penetrate a Macedonian pike wall frontally using their shields, or cut the shafts with their swords. The long range and multiple ranks of spear points makes pike formations mobile meat grinders. Though the pike was heavy and unwieldy, it was also heavy; that thrust would have a good amount of force, and even if some of it was absorbed by the flex of the pole, he could keep doing it. And you couldn't. However, their downside was that they were cumbersome and unwieldy; using them right required good tactical command and battlefield awareness on top of good troop discipline.
Later on, Swiss Mercenaries made it their thing and had quite a reputation. It's worth noting that the times when pike formations fought each other, the Italians would call it "Bad War" for a reason.
When one mobile meat grinder meets another, things get bloody, fast.
Have pikes become any better since this video was made?
Correct, lightly armored shock units are quite weak as they have no defense to the pikes continuous attack. Also horses get blown up if they try to charge pikes, I find that helpful for forming a line vs Huns.
Pikes (especially those with expert charge defense) will slaughter shock infantry without taking losses. The only units that can beat pikes headon without getting around them is high armor low charge infantry and even then the best heavy infantry (without javelins) will lose 1/3 or even half of its unit vs a cheap pike unit.
As long as you screen pikes from ranged units they are very powerful for there price for defense at least for offense they are bad.
Pikes are powerful defensive units but not very flexible which means in Online battles not really worth using as they require too much micro management compared to say a good spear unit. In single player they are quite good at holding a chokepoint as outside of High armor/health infantry they destroy most other units and even vs heavy infantry they will hold their ground much longer then other units for the price.
pikes are only good for choke points in siege battles.
in rome 2 pikes were so op but in time they were balanced out with patches
you dont use pikes like that. You put a unit of crap infantry right in the pike formation, a little bit in front of them, the pike can attack through the allied units and are in no danger to get into 1v1 combat. Works exceptionally in sieges. I have seen 1k kills+ on germanic pike units. if you ask me, they are the best units for sieges. If you are attacking a breach in the wall, send your offensive infantry in and then walk your pikemen into the friendly blob, so that their pikes can reach the enemy, but they are not in direct contact with the unit. This way the pikes do damange but receive none themselves.
I was completely racked throwing my swordman over pikemen in one online battle. Of course , they were under arrow fire, but it was the same for the pikemen, why that?
Do you know what pike damage for charge reception is based upon; unit type, mass, charge speed; or is it just their normal damage stat?
Sword and shields should counter pikes anyway. It is easy to counter a long stick with sharp steel and a shield.
Not when there is a whole line of them, all thrusting. Also pikes scare infantry quite a bit irl no one wants to charge into a line of pointy things
wall*
i know that this video is old...but protectóres doméstici
Hey maximus quick question. When you installed Attila did you have anything running in the background while downloading. I'm having a major issue and I wanted to know if you had anything downloading in the background
Yup! Downloading, uploading, no problem.
Hey I can see your bottom left window displays all unit info, mine only shows strengths and weaknesses, how do I change that?
acutally i ahve seen pikemen 1 shot kill medium gothic infantry when they ccharge, yes , you heard me, i saw them 5 rank deep, instakillign charging melee units, they jsut ran to the pikes and obviously, dropped dead once they got hit by them, almost 30 men down in the first colission, it might have to do with how much armor the guys actually had.
If you charge low armour infantry frontally into pikes, they die.
Maximus Decimus Meridius yep, i think teh pikes are also good agianst low armor infantry, makes no sense tought, since the pikes are actually pretty good to go trought chainmail and armor.
cseijif The force behind a disciplined pike formation is certainly formidable.
Maximus Decimus Meridius try elite gothic pikemen, they shrekt even high tier infantry i belieive.
i'm sorry sir, how do you create this scenarios for testings? i'm sorry for the trouble and thank you.
Isnt it a little ridiculous how fast the units get fatigued ?
Thats what I found the most curious in this video.
Well a man can only realistically fight as hard as he can for 15 minutes. And that's if he's well rested. I guess they made it the way it is for "strategical value"
xXBerethorXx I realise gameplay is sped up perhaps to 2.0x, but those stationary pikemen went from fresh at 1:49 to exhausted at 2:16 ...
Fordragon Folley And from fresh to winded in 4 video seconds. wow.
Yeah I liked medieval 2's fatigue system alot better. Hell even shogun 2 wasnt bad
xXBerethorXx
Can't say for Shogun 2, but Medieval 2 definitely had the best fatigue system
Can you send swordsmen in to lock units in combat and have pikes attack from behind the swords because of their longer reach?
Yes
try stacking pikes. overlap two units on top of each other. it made pikes impenetrable in rome 2
Same in Medieval 2, but I expect them to hold the line better. Look at Rome 1, that game did it the best.
that means you're wasting army slots that could be used for sword infantry or cavalry or archers, all which could counter and out maneuver these shitty pikes
so which is better, spears or pikes?
I feel like you have made a mistake in this test. I noticed all your units that attack where in a run/sprint mode by the time they clashed with enemies their status was either Tired or Winded yet the opponent was on a fresh mode. so you forgot to include that since that is very important in the game.
+Konstantin Abramov-Heffron the pikes still lost most of the time regardless
2chws I see. You should make more tests on the upcoming Warhammer total war. The test videos help a lot. Thank you
More rome Pointless videoss
i saw a chargefromn thracian warriors (Are the called like this) in the front against pikes and the pikes killed them all within second oO =D
not like pikes were ever a stable of historic battles ;-)
Now try charging with cavs
This is not how you play, you do not have a stretched out thin pike wall. What are you 12?
these clearly are not spartan pikemen....
So it's not viable at all to use pikes in attila.
in rome 2, pike are so good, but in Attila, it's crap. just get sword man for offence, and spearman for defence, and forget about pike man.
why even show pikeman class with shitty small shields?
I feel like pikes should have way more attack and damage. And should have more men per unit to compensate for their need to stay in a deep formation to be effective. Also maybe CA should make very light missile cav Able to outrun exhausted heavy cav. Fuck you CA you got my horse skirmishers killed.
Yes. With cavalry, they all have the same charge speed. if a unit hits charge speed, even when exhausted it''s pretty damn fast.
I see what you are getting at here, historically though pikes were not a hugely effective weapon against infantry. Most of the time pikes were used to hold infantry at bay on the charge and continue to hold as long as they could to slow the enemy, eventually though men would push through the pike wall and make their way to the men at the front of the formation where it wouldnt be hugely difficult to hack them down.and slowly push your way through the formation. Though i agree that a lot of these units are falling far too quickly i think this actually a step in the right direction for the pike units. In Rome II the pike units were incredibly OP (at least at first, unsure as to the state of this recently) and were dealing as much damage as most of the more offensive melee units, which for a defensive unit i just didnt feel was balanced enough.
Lol I thought pikes were OP as hell.... I've defended settlements against 1500 men with only 2 medium pike units.
your pike lines are too thin, i believe they need to be 3 men thick for it to work.
So you didn't notice that I have pikes in different depths.
yeah sorry, i didnt notice until i watched a bit longer
Hehe.
Wouldn't pikes suck ass against infantry realistically? Just plant your shield against the spear and break off the tip with your sword, axe or club...
Level one pikes suck, level 2 don't
Oh man! Greek ( Spartans Macedonians Athenians ) pikemen are the best
much prefer rome2 over atilla. better overall balance. nothing beat pikes from front. better controls and prefer the gfx too. as well as time period.
In this time period, pikes were never very used as much as back in the punch war period of Rome, so this is pretty accurate.
but in rome 2 they keep being shit
Rome 2 was balanced for a time on which bronze cuirass was one of the strongest armor available. Pikes are still murder machines against poorly-armored soldiers (particularly on charge as the charge bonus get reflected right back) but they get overwhelmed by any mail-wearing infantry.
Honestly this game has disappointed me... Seriously. Spears and Pikes are the BEST weapons in formation because you can keep people at a distance.
Swords and Axes beating spears and pikes makes NO SENSE. They were SIDEARMS that you could use to kill people up close.
Same with Archers, they were obviously effective as skirmishers in history, yet they don’t do shit at all against Infantry and Cav in this game.
thats the point lol , if you get beyond the point of a pike the pikeman essentialy lost his only advantage , which is one of the things the romans did , get close even if it means making a breach with dead men , and even tho the spear was the most common weapon it wasnt the only weapon , and at the end of the day this is a game which means nonsense is bound to happen
This compared to Rome 1 pikes lol
This is exactly how pikes should perform. I can see a horse walking right into a stick, not so much a person.
RIP Pike Square the world is better without you.
'ol
pikes are most useless wow