The End Of DBZ Is No Longer Canon. Here's Why.
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- Опубліковано 10 лис 2021
- Age 784 - the end of Dragon Ball Z...now may be no longer canon. Thanks to Dragon Ball Super Super Hero, what we consider the final saga of the original Toriyama story doesn't make sense any more. Bulma looks younger than in Z, powers don't match up, Beerus and Whis exist, Trunks and Goten have no conclusive modern grown-up design - where are we? We don't even have the introduction of Goku's Blue Gi from there and Dragon Ball GT! Let's go over all the inconsistencies and changes that have happened since 1995. #DragonBallZ #DragonBallSuper #DragonBall #DBZ
The End Of DBZ Is No Longer Canon. Here's Why.
• The End Of DBZ Is No L...
• The End Of DBZ Is No L...
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Dragonball overall does not have a good story narrative that can remain consistant with itself. That's the issue.
Three what if pitches:
1. What if Mr. Popo was a Sith Lord
2. What if Goku was a Machine Mutant
3. What if Gero and The Big Gete Star Teamed up
They better make some story arcs for teen Goten and Trunks😎
Here I thought you were gonna talk about pan and bra age reversed
Sorry buddy but I have to point this out... saiyans age way slower than humans so I don't see the problem. Yes I would love to see then grown but this is not a hit against the Canon.
My thing about Goku's outfit change was it was kind of a sign that he was no longer the student. Wearing Roshi/King Kai's outfit and logo was fine while he was training under them and showing his respect. As he rose above anything they could ever teach though it made far more sense to get his own style, his own school etc.
Well, maybe not his own school. He’s never shown the slightest interest in sharing techniques or seriously training with anyone who wasn’t at least an equal at the time. Hell, he outsourced most of Gohan’s training to Piccolo until Gohan needed help getting over the SSJ threshold. Even then, somehow, despite being stuck in a room with him for a year, Gohan learned none of his dad’s techniques. Apparently they just punched each other for 12 months.
Uub does represent some development on that front and hopefully we’ll see Goku actually bothering to impart something to Uub and not just fight him until he gets stronger or Goku gets bored and runs off again. But I can’t see him ever doing anything as formal as creating a school or having the patience to work with raw students on anything resembling a regular basis.
Lest anyone think I’m bashing Goku, I’m not singling him out. Universe 6 Saiyans in general seem to subscribe to the ‘Sink or Swim’ model of education; just throwing their kids out in the world the minute they’re of age and that’s that. If you’re not born with natural talent, you’re just written off (which really gets at why Saiyans of the past were so weak compared to Goku/Vegeta now and why the Super Saiyan Bargain Sale happened). Vegeta is a terrible teacher to Kid Trunks, who I don’t think knows any of his techniques. And his relationship with Cabba seems to be more about serving as an aspirational figure than a proper mentor or training. That said, I suspect that Goku and Vegeta are probably master trainers when compared to the rest of U6 Saiyans due to Earth culture having rubbed off some of the Saiyan edges on them a little. Maybe Human culture is just special in this regard by training and educating their offspring, and Goku and Vegeta really will be inspired to become proper masters in the fullness of time since they still have a lot of years left before they actually get old.
Yeah but now he's training under Whis so it all just comes in full circle
And now in dbs goku’s a tier 2-3 martial artist instead of end of db’s likely 5 and dbz’s buu saga 8 and end of z 10
@@runeuchihawhatifsandgaming3783 blue gi is acceptance of his saiyan heritance
I mean Goku far surpassed roshi in dragonball yet still wears his gi in buu saga lol.
The only loss in my mind would be Trunks and Goten not actually getting taller
We've even seen a 13 yr old trunks in the special, him just not aging is ehhhhh
My only explanation is they retained their saiyan genes more to not age much until they are around 19 like Goku did
krillin: i feel ya man
I dunno, I enjoyed what Pan grew up to.
@UCtYfL5zPyIVAvi1shwexLEQ because the just writers just don't give a damn about those characters
Their not even relevant anymore.
And i don't think that their gonna appear in the movie.
Goten and Trunks are not even relevant characters.
Theory: When Bulma wished to be five years younger, she also asked for Trunks and Goten to stop aging for five years!!
Saiyans age more slowly. Gohan is different case because he trained in the hypeebolic time chamber for a Year.
@@elpopman2055 Gohan is half-Saiyan. Goten and Trunks are Half-Saiyan. Goten and Trunks have also spent a few weeks in the chamber as well. Future Trunks had a model for age 13, why not reuse it for Trunks and make a new model for Goten?
Gohan cannot be that different from Goten and Trunks especially when Future Trunks was already shown to be like Gohan in terms of physical growth. Your argument of “Saiyans age more slowly” is largely applicable to Full Blooded Saiyans. Half-Bloods don’t grow that slowly, otherwise Gohan would not have had those growth spurts regardless of time chamber.
@@RedDragonForce2 new territory you're gonna have to read my comment again. I don't think you understand the difference between Future Trunks and current trunks. Future Trunks has been training since childhood with Future Gohan. Trunks and Goten mostly live in the peaceful timeline.
@@elpopman2055 that doesn’t change anything. Besides, Vegeta has had Trunks train most of his life, and Goten has a far stronger interest in training than Gohan ever did. You don’t get a physical growth during puberty ONLY because of stressful and traumatic times. Toriyama never explained then (during the run of Super) or now the how or why Goten and Trunks haven’t physically grown at all. I read your comment and fully understood it. You don’t fully understand the lore of Hybrids. Sure, no one really does, but your argument feels even less knowledgeable than what has been explained so far.
@@RedDragonForce2 goten obviously took more from goku than chichi he has the same hair and until now has shown normal saiyan intelligence when gohan’s hair grew and he is very smart
He was 100% sure Uub was buu's reincarnation, he felt his power even if it was dormant actually, DBS could become way more intersting when it passes the end of Z.
just hope we get past it LOL ,
I feel like we've been stuck in this 10 years time skip for a 100000000000 years 😅
@@_jackyyyy9333 It feels like we’ve been in the timeskip for 10 years.
How can be Uub the reincarnation of Buu if Buu is Alive?
@@fkjl4717 Kid buy got separated from buu.
He'd be reincarnation of kid buu
@@tropicalvikingcreations You'd think people would know this by now lmao
11:43
18: you have a family?
17: yes.
18: at this time in this time of decade, at this time of the year, localized entirely on your island?
17: yes.
18: may I see it?
17: no.
Seymour 17
he had the family before Super. Toriyama had written about them. He has a wife and 3 kids, 2 of the kids are adopted one is his biologically.
Steamed fam
Did someone say family?
I understood that reference
Toyo and Tori when they get asked about redoing the end of Z.
“I forgor”
*A1 - It's just a burning memory* plays
@@MasakoX Why did you have to do that to me?
@@MasakoX Pain|now the music is replayingin my head
You would think that, except they included EoZ at the end of DBZ Kai.
@@burnum Toriyama and Toyotarou are mostly uninvolved with the production of the anime.
i will never understand the whole "goku leaving his family" bro you can fly at lightspeed and teleport, you can sleep in your house every day wdym you can even go pee home
i just had a thought. can... can Goku instant transmission his pee?
@@charleswisconsin9196 no. He can instant transmission while he pisses I guess? But his piss can't sense ki to teleport away so that's stupid
He does visit his family luckily, you can see it in the Neko Majin Z chapters Toriyama did.
@@charleswisconsin9196 really putting this thought in my head..😟
If the end of z is no longer canon. This opens up a interesting array of possibilities such as Ubb’s potential, Pan’s development, Teen Goten and Teen Trunks personality, Pan’s personality and development and Bra’s personality and development and Marron’s personality and development. I still hope that they keep Goku’s special connection with Pan at the end of z and Dragonball GT!
Most likely if they make goku smart again he'll have an argument with Gohan/Chi chi and they'll make him realize he's spent his whole life away from them and not to do the same to Pan. That'll cause him to feel guilty and spend time with Pan also favoring her as his student
Super and Z are different shows.
It also means no Majuub. I greatly preferred DBO's telling of what happened with Majin buu. AKA the Majin race.
BAHAHAHAHAH good luck
Pan for the win
I'm actually SHOCKED that ANYONE would be even remotely surprised by this.
Seriously, ever since "Battle of Gods" back in freaking 2013, the amount of mental gymnastics you had to do in order to believe that the original DBZ ending would stay canon was on par to the amount needed to include the DBZ movies. And by the time "Super" was a thing, it became just delusional.
I know! Now with Super Hero, it's pretty much thrown it all out. That's why we made this video.
Really makes you wonder why they didn't just make a plain sequel.
@@Pleinair92 all they had to say was, "we'll redconing the rush ending Toriyama made back then, and creating something new".
See but thats the thing though, by that point in the franchise, Dragon Ball Z was already pushing suspension of disbelief by bringing back frieza, and coming up with "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". It felt shallow enough that by then the only reason I thought it would still work, would be because the producers don't actually care about telling a consistent and thought out story lol. All that paired with them insisting they'd be able to cram in a whole series before End of Z in the form of DBS
@@dandyspacedandy lol no! It was laughable to think that would have worked. When they said that all of this would fit the end of Z was a delusional roller-coaster.
I’m hoping this opens up the possibility for actual tension in the future. What we got from Super so far is nice and all, but the idea of the ending of Z being canon kept me from really getting into it, because the ending of Z showed everyone alive and the earth not gone.
Now, we got some steaks!
Delicious porterhouses of plot points.
Gotta love them 🥩.
@@MasakoX I was thinking more Basashi
let’s be honest, we still won’t have any real stakes just because of how shallow dragon ball’s writing is nowadays
The granolah arc taking place after End of Z would not of made it any better. First common sense question is, "why didn't Granolah just wish back his family." The writing is shallow and unimpressive
Trunks: Hey mom! Why is it you never seem to age?
Bulma: You're grandfather won't let me.
dark...
I don’t get it
@@sussyboy7904 watch Cell arc by Team Four Star. Dr briefs have secrets in basement.
Android 16: "I mean COME ON!! There're OTHER colors."
Android 16: "At this point, I wonder whether Son Goku even knows that other colours exist."
@@MasakoX plot twist: Goku has been colorblind the whole time.
Made up on the fly by the master himself.
Z ending was nice for me, but somehow an ending that actually felt like The End, was more GT ending to me.
Goku actually had so much chracter in that last scene.
Agree 100% with you there.
That's why the timeline I prefer is DB/Z/GT
@@javierramirez1805 Me too
@@javierramirez1805 Same here. GT was not only the whole series' ending but also the end of an era.
Dragonball meant a lot for so many people over the years, both staff and those of us who grew up with it.
@@aikou2886 it wasn’t , gt was a terrible ending
*thumbnail*
At least DBZ Bulma aged gracefully as a wise woman compared to DBS Bulma who cares more about her looks and acts like she was still a teenager.
Dang...that's a good point...and if you look at Super Hero, she most likely went ahead and did it again...even after Goku calling her out on it.
Tbh Yeah. Least Z Bulma Ages with Grace and a deep sense of class.
This Bulma could wear trendy clothes forever, with no sign of growth when going about things.
Super can remain entirely 20's.
@@MasakoX It's actually kinda nice to see Goku do that.
Look at that waste of a wish....well, at least it's better then spending your wish on 5,000,000 Zeni.
Super Bulma is a wise responsible adult though. End of Z Bulma just felt out of character rather than more wise or mature to me.
Yeah, it really rubs in the fact of how much of a joke the Dragon Balls have become
Bulma using the dragon balls to make herself look younger isn't a joke that works in universe since neither of her parents have aged a day in over thirty years.
Remember bullmas dad won't let them age
There’s a theory that Bulma’s mom was either an Android or that Dr Brief did some « adjustments » to make her stay young and smiling for ever. That or Bulma older sister brought back some alien technology that made the familly immortal
"Aging is for the poors" - Dr. Briefs, possibly
@@togucvinw7 considering they own a company that makes capsule houses, is not unbelievable if they have some sort of plastic surgery so advanced that makes bulma's mother look like 20 when she's in her 80's probably
wouldnt she be 100 years old if shes been useing the dragonballs to make her look younger
4:02 Also marketing and, to be blunt, paheal reposts. You know the ones. Also, I'm fully prepared to have an emesis from gastric ulcers if Goten & Trunks continue to be the anime versions of _Andy Milonakis._
I'm not sure if all this is still enough to say the entirety of End of Z is different because there's just so many caveats one could use in the grand scheme of the movie... Like, what if it winds up having time jumps or flashback scenes?
Frankly, I have a hard time taking word-of-God that seriously with this seriesー especially when it's been flat out wrong and self contradictory on in-universe things. At best, it feels like more of a guideline.
“Self-contradictory on in-universe things”
Why does that sound familiar?
**Rera from the Samurai Shodown series winks at me in the distance.**
@@GlitchanBlack They're not alone, sadly.
@@gobi1987 Yeah.
If I remember correctly about Rera though, SNK said that no one could see her except Nakoruru. However, the OVA for Samurai Shodown 64: Warrior’s Rage (which gave Rera the name she has today), Samurai Shodown 6, and the SEGA Dreamcast game “Nakoruru: A Gift From That Person” provides evidence that says otherwise (since Galford, Rimururu, and A Gift From That Person’s protagonist can also see Rera).
I remember Paheal being a pretty good spell in Treasure of Rudra. As for EoZ, we're getting close to the point where the time jump would put us. We have Gods that aren't even mentioned in GT, even though they would have a major stake in what happens in that series. The only way they could still make EoZ and GT canon would be to jump the shark harder than they did with Future Trunks.
I honestly preferred how GT ended. Goku vanishing with Shenron was pretty poetic.
Oh yes! That ending was poignant.
@Shadow Samurai Well, it wasn't completely new for him to leave his family and friends behind - he was gone for all those years between Cell Arc and Buu Arc after all.
Best ending especially his rivalry with vegeta never ending
@@maadtee6281 It also made me curious how GT would have continued after that. Vegeta now stands as one of the strongest, if not, THE strongest.
@Shadow Samurai more importantly though, he learned from his mistake and left Vegeta in charge instead of Gohan.
Well, I'm actually in the minority that likes it, it frees the creators from the limits created by it.
Besides, if they ever want to end Super they can do very similar ending to the one at the end of Z, just with some differences to fit with Super.
I don;t think that's minority though. It's just logical conclusion, that after a whole new series ending will have to change somewhat. Most important parts (tournament, Goku deciding to train Uub, Pan enjoying fighting, etc.) can still be smoothly implemented into current canon. It's even still possible to make GT somewhat cannon (or at least reimplement it in similar way - keep the most important aspects and rework/scrap the rest).
@@NaoyaYami I'd love to see Super take on GT, but, you know...make it actually good.
I'm going to be horrified if someone they make Super GT worse then GT actually is.
And I love the part of the show. We see Trunks do stuff.
@@NaoyaYami only if they don't make Goku a kid
black arc n top arc ar literally the best arcs in anime besides frieza saga
@@moon4236 And yet GT goku was still more tolerable and enjoyable overall than Super goku
Goku's Blue Gi is my favorite looking Goku. I've been waiting for it to come back for so long, here's to hoping we see it again!
Bulma making her self younger, and abusing the dragon balls would be a good excuse to bring back the omega Sharon. I did like that arc in gt, plus it would be a good consequence.
Its not "abusing" Dragon Balls. Its a common sense wish. "Eternal Youth" would be a better wish
@@amandadraws8682 If Oceanus Shenron was born from a wish for a pair of underwear, anything is possible.
@@amandadraws8682 It is abusing. Reviving your comrades is one thing, and understandable. Rewinding your age a bunch of times is another.
It's like Sho asking for a bunch of Zeni.
I will love it if they appear. At this point, get rid of the Dragon Balls. Let's actually raise the stakes at Future Trunks Levels.
@@Xylospring I mean, they have the earth balls, the namekian balls, the Super Dragon Balls & now the ones on Planet Cereal.
The ONLY way I can see it happening is if Zalama themselves got upset from use and turned all the balls against them. Which could be a great plot, btw.
Me too, it should be this way. GT had the luxury to do whatever it pleased as it was set after the End of Z. Super always has a time limit on it and a belief that it *must* end on End of Z.
It wasn't really a time limit though. Super could just as well just tell what happened between end of Buu Arc and End of Z, remake those 3 eps (with some retcons of course) and then go on to continue after it. Heck, it could even go on until beggining of GT without retconning it too much (though it would be very constraining).
@@NaoyaYami Its still bound by End of Z regardless. IMO, I want it to completely skip EoZ. EoZ is meant to be the end of the Dragon Ball Manga, not a stopping point for the Dragon Ball Super Manga.
@@okuigokublack dbs isnt gonna stop at end of z. U think their going to build up uub and pan and just end it at end of z? No dbs is going to continue past EOZ without a doubt
@@fatdurk7934 I want them to skip EoZ entirely.
@@okuigokublack ah ya that actually would be fine. Just skip to where goku takes uub to train.
Plot twist: their [Trunks & Goten] still gonna little kids to troll the fans.
Toriyama:
*Trollololololololol*
Maybe they'll get a massive growth spurt like Goku did between 13 and 16 years old in the OG Dragonball.
Adult gotenks gunna hit diff I'll tell you that
We ain't ready for him 🔥🔥
@@rakshanaaaa
it might be like GT, where we ALMOST get adult gotenks but they dodge it narrowly
they will age after granolah
Gi changes when the training is complete.
With an angellic light blue colour.
One can assume/hope.
That was a theory we had. That the GP trains Goku briefly.
Was thinking something similar. Though we were now told that he is on the bottom rung of a giant ladder of UI mastery. Though it wouldn't be hard to think that part of that is discovered on your own.
It's a shame I always loved that ending it flowed perfectly from the end of the Buu arc and honestly it's a great ending it shows that Goku will always be Goku and will always want to fight and train stronger opponents that's his character and Vegeta embracing his family and his Friendship with Goku is heartbreaking a fantastic end to a climatic show now it's no longer canon
At this point Vegeta and Gokus friendship is full bloom as DBS is basically the middle to end of a buddy cop after the two cops settle their differences and beat the bad guys. All they can do is either keep the personal growth of the two going as they become more than what we know or expand to focus on other characters.
TBH I just want to see Pan beating grown up Goten's ass. End of Z Pan was simply adorable and I hope personality won't change much, just so that Videl may get embarassed remembering how similar they actually are (turning her into docile, quiet housewife is one of the biggest sins of DBS for me).
@@NaoyaYami Videl was a perfect tough but feminine character. Super broke her.
Edit: extra ?
@@rexusthevaliant6311 Just imagine if Videl wasn't destroyed and during ToP, she would stand next to Gohan in her iconic white t-shirt, spats and gloves.
Or maybe just make her regain interest in fighting since it seems like Gohan also tries to find a balance between training and studies, and fighitng was the very thing that they bonded over. Add to that Pan's interest in training and you have a quality bonding time for a whole family (uncle Piccolo included!).
well it hasnt been changed and is still canon so no worries.
honestly, gokus outfit changes have always been symbolic of his change and progression as a character. as much as i hate to admit it because i love the orange and blue gi....it's time. kid goku started in that all blue gi. as he progressed as a martial artist eventually took on the turtle hermit orange gi. when he grew up, he added the blue under shirt and started wearing boots instead of sandals. throughout z the kanji logo on the front and back changed as he grew from learning under king kai, changing the back to king kais kanji and keeping master roshis on the front. when arriving on namek, the kanji was replaced by his own on both the front and back, symbolizing he was now a master himself. basically that he had graduated. and from the android saga onward he abandoned wearing kanji on it at all, and had a belt with no tassel's coming out symbolizing he had grown past all that and was now his own man. and we can debate what the blue and yellow from the end of z (and GT) symbolizes, but it definitely points to yet another evolution in his character.
and we all know this is exactly why they WON'T do it. super has not only barely bothered to grow goku's character, but has actually regressed it in some areas. i love the orange and blue, but it is far past time we let goku grow as a character again.
Super Saiyan 4 will always be my choice over God Saiyan modes.
Only Ultra Ego comes close to it from those transformations
With where the powerlevels are now, if Uub is as powerful as Buu, heck even Kid Buu. He would still be no where near able to stand with Goku and Geets right?
This is manga spoilers, but the way they seem to be writing around it is by stating Uub has Buu's god ki.
@@neoshenlong I never knew Buu had god ki, that is interesting.
@@SimplyChris Yeah, the idea they introduced actually makes sense: Since Buu absorbed the Kais, he has their god ki. However, Kid Buu got it and then Uub inherited it when he resurrected.
As if they cared about that now
If they do age up Goten, I just hope his style doesn't make him look like Yamcha without the scar
I wouldn't count on it. If there's one thing I hate about Toriyama/his work is that all of his characters look the same to the point of looking as if they were cosplaying each other. For example, take a look at Sand Land and compare the characters with those found in Dragonball. I think Nekomajin Z and Dr. Slump can be compared the same way and so on.
I hope they give him the teen gohan hair
@@zkwldn7674 hell no
@@suanesantoss2244 why hell no? The GT style is still too similar to adult gohan and the other style he looks like yamcha. Teen gohan hair is a bit like gokus but it’s not
@@zkwldn7674 Your wish has been granted
DBZs ending absolutely sucked. "Oh hey guys sorry I'm going to go train this random villain I re-incarnated into a kid that I could've done to basically any other villain and probably will rarely ever see you again!" There's just no way to make sense of it now. If they keep this in, the least they could do is show beyond that and Goku coming back with instant transmission to visit, and often. It would make more sense to train Uub in the chamber like start of **gags** GT.
I'd day gheneding of GT is better than the ending of Z.
Kid Goku gets to be with Grandpa Gohan.
Silly Masako, we can't have our marketable characters age.
Tanya Harmon That’s just it though, it is because they want the characters to be marketable. Which is why in any video game you’ll always have a bald Krillin, maybe some with hair.
only goten n trunks ar its because their halfsaiyan if they where kept in timechamber with shhiton of training thats how they will grow its just that goku doesnt like making goten to fight he knows how he kept gohan training nonstop without asking wat he likes to do .even after training n now n then the both sons screwed up n first failed to blitz cell n other got absorbed by buu becoz of being reckless n c0cky everytime so now goku lets them enjoy their lifes n half of the super is about goku spending time with goten n his family n z fighters
I have been saying this for AGES!!! Thank you for this video! You covered just about everything I have been saying. I would still love to see some on the elements of the end of Z, but overall, it just DOESN'T fit anymore, hasn't fit for some time now.
After the Moro Arc it would have been perfect to skip to the end of Z right there given how Uub made an appearance, hell they could have made a few minor changes by having Beerus and Whis there too.
Wouldve been a good idea👍🏾
Tbh i dont like the idea of getting rid of how Z originally ended, UNLESS ur gonna do it better than the og did, which i dont feel they can. Too many ppl find nostalgia with that.
It would be pretty cool. And it would be neat to See Granola be one of the first Villains of a Post Z era.
@@Xylospring Goku end of Z is the strongest of all, so it is extremely important for the Arc of Granolah to happen before the end of the Z, as Gas Ira breaks the balance of the universe being the first character to overcome Beerus, currently Granolah is the most powerful, but he is still below Beerus.
Granolah means the mortal limit, and Gas represents Goku's goal of becoming the true number 1 in the universe.
Goku by beating Gas with the help of Vegeta and Granolah, will be ready for his rematch and with his victory against Beerus, he will become a master.
Not to mention that it might be problematic for the narrative if Frieza is alive in End Of Z.
although in Neko Majin Z the story takes place 2 years before End Of Z and Frieza is alive, the ironic thing is that Nekomajin is much older than anything from Super, meaning we already had a hint of Frieza's resurrection from that one era.
but maybe after granolah saga
11:00
Unfortunately like with Cloud and Sephiroth as an example, “the sales numbers won’t let them”…
God Ki and Uub being a God Ki user makes EoZ that much more interesting!
Would be nice to see them retell that part of the story, with fun little Super additions like new lore and gods that help pave the way to a new arc.
I still don’t understand why Akira didn’t place Super after Z. It’s almost like he’s trying to fit GT in there as part of the story despite it not being written by him. I’m sure that’s not it but it’s still a strange decision
GT merch still makes money would most likely be the main reason
airka siad evety was to old at end of z that wya he did nto wnat super to be after end z
@@ssjgotenks2009 Bro no one knows what you’re saying
I tried to decipher it lmao. "akira said everyone was too old at end of Z, that way he did not want super to be after end z"
@@MedK001but he wrote them that way.
The ending of DBZ DOESN'T fit into Super anymore, and it completey works. Here's why: Alternate timelines. Super lowered the boom softly with the introduction of the 12 different universes early on in the series, and later introduced the existence of the rings tied to alternate timelines (of which there are several). DB Heroes, while not created by Toriyama, nonetheless used the concept and created a show that is nothing but alternate versions of the same characters clashing with each other.
All along, Toriyama has been laying the groundwork for this new fact in his DB world: Super eventually diverges from the Z timeline. Once again, anything can happen to anyone at anytime, and the future's wide open.
I agree. This also fits with Zamasu arc, the guy Murdered DBZ Goku.
@@fkjl4717 Wow, I never looked it like that! Sad. :(
@@fkjl4717 Also technically canonizes GT, because GT was considered to also be a separate timeline. That means SSJ4 is also canon, in a way
@@lapplandkun9273 GT is a completely seperate continuity none of GT exists in Super and vice versa
Bold of you to assume Toriyama's that smart. I love him, but he forgets characters even exist all the time.
Ssj4 will always be canon in our hearts
only good thing from gt
@@kubakaczmarek2399 i don't think it was the only thing, but i'm glad we at least agree Super Saiyan 4 is cool.
@@kubakaczmarek2399 the ending, Goku's more strategic mind instead of just hitting things really hard, the idea of the shadow dragons: Are we a joke to you
@@christopherford39 More strategic mind? goku in super isn't just hiting things really hard. He gets Ultra Instinct which looks really good in animation and gives goku tons of new abilities and besides goku actualy uses strategy in super, outsmarts hit ,jiren ,kefla.. many times. Shadow dragons are stupid idea
@@kubakaczmarek2399 so dragons being born from negative energy of overused dragon balls is dumb and that same super Goku got outsmarted by Buu of all people
Bulma: Hey, Dende. I need to use the Dragon Balls to make myself younger.
Dende: Bulma, that would be a grievous misuse of their powers.
Bulma: I'm about misuse my hand upside your head!
Popo: ...Nice.
I’m curious about how many things the DB Fanbase as a whole (or a large majority) agree upon, besides the Goten and Trunks thing because that is definitely coming to a head.
Just look at Goten and Trunks.
It's getting ridiculous...
Also, I like how Super was supposed to be set during a time of "peace", lmao...
Yeah! It's gotta happen sooner or later. I bet they won't be in this movie...just to spite us.
They probably won't even be in the movie because the writers just don't give a damn about them
@@MasakoX It would have to be after a time-jump. No other way to make it happen 🤣
@@dragonnoid4655 That seems to be a trend with most characters post DBZ...
@@AndrewAce. you're not wrong
I always liked the ending of Z I think it was just perfect everything really coming full circle I'm kinda sad hearing the news yet I'm excited to see what's going to happen next.
theres no news. its still canon despite masako's video. always has been. theyve never had any desire to change it.
There is no “news” lol I like Masako and this is a very well done video but it’s still speculation, I believe they’ve come out TWO times now and said the end of Z is still canon so until that changes officially we got nothing to worry about
@@saphcal Dragon ball super hero proves end of z no longer canon sorry pal but end of z was mess this is better.
@@tamer8381 Super Hero takes place a year before End of Z. It doesn't "prove end of z no longer canon".
Not the end of DBZ is so longer canon, DBS is no longer Canon.
I legitimately despise the fact that no one ages anymore in Dragon Ball.
Dragon Ball used to be among the best examples of effectively conveying the passing of time and aging your characters in fiction.
Now Dragon Ball is an absolute laughinstock in that regard.
Some of my problems are probably just due to artstyle. But you can't tell me that several other characters look a lot younger than they used to.
how is dragonball now laughing stock? no other anime has better characters n story than dragonball
@@andrewdasilva7786 HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you're funny
@@andrewdasilva7786 I'm not even an anime fan yet I'm experiencing second hand embarrassment from your comment.
@@andrewdasilva7786 Iol well I agree Dragonball isn't a laughing stock... I'll take the original series and Z over super though.
But to claim that Dragonball has the best characters and stories... in Anime. God bless you bro because with a take like that... You'll need it 🤣
I agree man .. Im just waiting for the idiot who thinks Goku didn’t grow throughout OG Dragonball think he only grew in the 23rd martial arts tournment.
So then End of Z follows the GT timeline and this current story follows Super's timeline
GT also follows the Z movie timeline as well, given how Cooler made an appearance.
May as well see them as two completely seperate universes at this point and the universe that goes from Z to GT which I grew up on, I ain't gonna say is uncanon. Super just feels like a glorified fanfiction at this point which I just can't entertain.
@@RogueFox2185 cooler is a movie character and is not canon
@@da-vidcargill4975 He was canon to GT’s timeline, if he wasn’t then he wouldn’t even be shown there.
@@anthonydeadman I feel the same way
My headcannon is there is 3 timelines
Dragonball Z
GT
Super
Imo Dragonball Z’s Manga ending is the best ending since it doesn’t feel like a cash grab
I definitely love the idea that Vegeta, Goku, and even Gohan are going in different directions when it comes to developing and increasing their powers and abilities. Definitely gives them more of an identity. I've also found that it makes sense character wise as well, Vegeta and Gohan both acknowledging that they can't catch up with Goku.
@Death Reaper ok.
Gohan could definitely catch up to Goku if he wanted to 😂
Bro I’ve been looking for your channel for Hellas u gotta the best anime channel so far
“It really brings out his stupid face” I LOVE THE DRAGON BALL Z ABRIDGED REFERENCE! And thank you for voicing Goku in that series you were PERFECT
If they were going to set DBS before the end of Z, this retcon should’ve happened from the beginning. Just say you’re going to do something different, and one of Super’s big problems (there being very few stakes to anything) would be fixed.
I reckon the original intent for Super was to showcase the events between Buu and EoZ...but then it got overly complex. Oops.
@@secoTheSonicFan Also significant part of DBZ is pure fillers which Toriayma never touched. Like Movies and story of Sayans.
@@MasakoX DBZ ending never could fit with DBS. DBS opened new world full of strong fighters and deities , not especially evil, just from another universes.
While DBZ ending is just for DBZ universe, just never ending Goku journey.
@@fkjl4717 GT actually touches upon the fillers, and all Z movies were considered "canon" in GT's timeline. It's even supported in Heroes, where Xeno Goku was stated to have experienced all of Z movie's Goku and GT's Goku villains.
@@lapplandkun9273 That's a problem I have with GT, the fact that it references non-canon material (I personally don't consider filler canon either because filler isn't based on the manga either). The most notable examples were the Tuffles and Gogeta. Tuffles were mentioned in Z filler, and Gogeta was originally from Fusion Reborn, which is in no way canon. And yet, Goku and Vegeta already knew the Fusion Technique in GT; in fact, it was Vegeta who recommended that he and Goku fuse. The worst part about GT Gogeta, however, is the fact that he has Vegito's personality, rather than his pragmatic and overall badass Fusion Reborn personality. The Broly movie handled Gogeta much better; not only did the Saiyans not know the technique at first, but Gogeta returned to his Z personality.
The story of Super could have been almost exactly the same if it took place after Z
It may as well have. I don't see the point in setting it before the end of Z...
Nope, because of Uub.
@@abhabh6896 he could have gotten the Launch treatment. Or just be a side character that showed up sometimes.
@@abhabh6896 Oh yes, because every other character from End of Z is really integral to DBS' plot. Like Gohan, Piccolo or Krillin. Uub could just stay right there with them.
@@abhabh6896 I said almost for a reason
I've said it before and I'll say it again since no one seems to understand.
The End of Z was always supposed to be Dragon Ball GT Episode 0.
The Dragon Ball Z Special where Tarble was introduced was Dragon Ball Super Episode 0.
Toriyama never had control over GT, so he decided in a power move to make it no longer canon to the main timeline. That is why Super and GT are two different timelines, but I can see Toriyama adapt GT into Super after some time. That would be interesting to see Super Saiyan Blue 4.
A lot of this is so incorrect that this is worse then the title of this video.
1:39 Pan spending time to know how to DODGE with Uncle Grandpa Piccolo
I think we're in a position where Super and GT are both soft canon, while Z is solid canon. So either one could be canon, or both or neither. All depends on the viewer.
Both are non canon logically but if Some how dragon ball creators managed to create new logical continuation story and also they do and confirm dbs and dbgt is actually different timeline or Multiverse but they all in same multiverse with his own canon timeline that will also good step to undo everything what they mess with Canon timeline
@@sagargupta9446 it be timelines, Dragon Ball's Multiverse doesn't work like that. As seen with The Tournament of Power Arc
Honestly I am kinda okay with this. Goku just dropping everything to go live with a guy he just met that day ditching his family always kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I feel a retcon would open up story ideas and allow them to incorporate Uub in a better way.
Now my favorite gi is non-canon to Super timeline. 😭
Given that Toriyama tends to forget pretty major things with Dragonball, I doubt that keeping true to Z's ending is high on the priority list or if he even recalls what happened immediately after kid Buu was destroyed.
Dang, I feel like retcons, marketing or going new direction everything just to make it confusing
Maybe They stayed smaller for longer, because they didn't really get into many life threatening situations? That way their bodies are storing up more power for longer for a stronger adult hood?
That would explain why fiture trunks and Gohan got larger quicker, because they were constantly fighting, so their bodies had to adapt and grow up to survive. Saiyan biology adapts to fights like that so it isn't too far off I'd wager.
So you say that you have to fight bad guys to be tall? This is ridiculous.
@@fkjl4717 Not you, saiyans. And honestly I can see that being the case since their bodies are really weird when compared to a human's.
@@fkjl4717 I mean your surronding determines who you are, sometimes biologically
I'm totally for it. I thought about it before. It even works for Gohan and Goku growing difrrently
I miss old Bulma.
I just love mature anima ladies. That's why End of DBZ Bulma and GT Bulma are my favorites.
Yes, they need to bring in 17 so we can see his three kids and the orphaned Cell Jr.'s he adopted.
Imagine if we ever get Super 17, I think we'll see them then.
Canon and Non Canon are not a thing in Japan. That's why movie villains, GT etc etc are keep being promoted to this day. They don't care about any of that. Thank God. The games would be so boring without the movies villains or Super Saiyan 4.
But gt and the Z movies are DEFINITELY not cannon
Also, Megaman X command mission isnt cannon to the mainline games.
Sonic shuffule most likely isnt cannon to the mainline
Megaman nt warrior isnt cannon to the games(nor are the movies)
Heck, i DOUBT some naruto/dbz filler are cannon either, as it can lead to a variety of inconsistencies.
Dont get me started on MARIO lol.
@@chriss.249 not in Japan, in japan they are just alternative historys
@@darkousdragon1166
Those are japanese games tho. And x command mission is far from cannon. Same with maverick hunter X. Its not really seperate timelines but non cannon as a whole.
And America treats its stuff the same. With stories being stated to be seperate timelines or alternate universes, or just flat out non cannon
@@secoTheSonicFan
Yeah ill be honest i dont always care about cannon. Some comics/games/books are considered non cannon but are just so damn good to where i still enjoy em.
Case in point being the games i just mentioned.
Although i wont lie i dont like how goten and trunks dont age😅
Masako says dingus. Instantly hears Gohan say "Shut up ya dingus! Age them up!"
The word cannon means absolutely nothing in dragon ball anymore
We have manga canon, and anime has like sub genres of canon connections
Why?
Bc of all the retcons
Personally, I see both GT and Super now exist in different timelines. The difference is that Beerus didn't wake up in time, slept in and thus GT happened.
I do to
I could've sworn this video was released yesterday... Deja Vu
Also I love how Pan grows 4x faster than Trunks and Goten XD
If I'm not wrong, Pan is also older than Bra in this continuity. Isn't she?
The whole "Kid Buu reincarnated into this random kid that Goku wants to train all of a sudden" ending was a very weak ending to me.
For whatever reason Toriyama decided to revive Dragonball and make Super, I'm glad he did it.
Seemed very much like goku though. Unlike his family and other z fighters goku likes to train even if there's no threat to earth. Makes sense he'd take the opportunity to train the reincarnation of buu. An ending with goku just settling down and spending time with family and friends makes no sense.
Regardless of controversy I appreciate greatly the fact that in mere November 2021 we are still discussing eagerly about DBZ. If someone would have told 10 year old me (who only lived and breathed DBZ) that I would be arguing with strangers online about DBZ at my current age I would not have believed it. Reality surpasses fiction.
Would love to see a WHAT IF type video or how you'd want the End of Z to be rewritten to reflect new canon!
I'm glad they possibly glossing over the end of DBZ
Well it's been a slow burner but it's now pretty much definite.
10:06 It's a bit out there but I've been wondering for a while now if Bulma has been using the dragonballs to keep Trunks & Goten younger now that its an established thing that she regularly makes wishes to keep herself younger. Assuming this is true, maybe a wish could be made on Shenron to undo those youthful wishes and thereby give us the older Bulma, Trunks, and Goten from the end of Z.
9:48 It's not confusing at all. There are multiple continuities and you're trying to blend them all together.
Canon Dragonball ended in the mid 1990s. That will remain forever unchanged.
15:19-15:23
I freakishly adore you for making that TFS reference.
it’s probably gonna end up being something like wow the end of Z refers to the timeline future trunks escaped to or something like that
With multiple timelines its hard to consider any Dragon Ball ending or continuation as "canon" since the changes with Minus and Super derailed the story to its current weird iteration.... but not the first series to change its continuity nor the weirdest
We know. The end of DBZ was building up to GT, but due to it not having Toriyama's mark and its unpopularity, it's not longer part of the continuity.
I really want a retelling of GT using the SUper timeline... if only to meet the Dragon created by Bulma wishing to be younger.
Correction on the five years thing - Bulma mentions it's been 5 years since GOKU came to visit them, but mentions she dropped by on Goku's training trips. So they did see each opther, just not by Goku's choice.
but super canfoem that is laie age 780 top arc happen goku was at bulma palce so she cant have nto sen him fo r5 years
Dbz - gt original timeline
Dbz-super timeline fractured from second visit from trunks to fight the androids
Makes sense
Nice 👍
One thing I hope comes back later in super is the idea of the dragon balls breaking from overuse. That’s one of the best ideas done for GT
Akira said multiple times that at the end of Z he made characters to look too old, and I didn't like end of Z too much, like freaking Pan beating up Goten? They made him dirty
How the hell did they do him dirty Goten let Pan win why wouldn't he let his niece win
Maybe that’s true for everybody else but it certainly isn’t for Goten or Trunks since by the time End of Z happened in the main timeline Future Trunks took his first trip to the past looking identical that version of Present Trunks
@@maadtee6281 Nah Goten doesnt train and is weak. Pan is strong like her dad.
Personally I had already come to except that the end of Z leads to GT, and therefore there will be no reason to have an end of Z in the middle of super
Sure hope they do age up Goten and Trunks accordingly.
Gohan being an outlier and aging faster would even work.
Gohan might just be closer to his human side, while Goten is closer to his Saiyan side, he es much more like Goku after all.
Also i actually like the idea of Future Trunks and current Trunks being different.
Maybe Future Trunks did grow more human like, while current Trunks is more saiyan like.
Would even make the whole Blue hair vs purple hair a bit more logical.
I'm about 30 episodes from the end of super. Glad this video did not have spoilers. Well done as usual.
The original manga ending made it very clear Goku knew Uub was the reincarnated Buu from the start. At the tournament he even blatently tells Vegeta he wished for the reincarnation and that Yemma pulled some strings for him. After he flies off to train Uub Vegeta also blatently points out that the real reason Goku is doing this is for a rematch with Uub when the training is complete.
So it wasn't a whim at all (he literally planned it for a decade), nor was it "for future protection". It was solely to have a rematch against "Buu" since he failed to beat Kid Buu on his own. Heck, him taking Uub to a different planet to train him also makes more sense then him abandoning his family to live in Uub's village (since he can literally fly back in no time the goodbye never made sense)
As for Beerus & Whi's not being present during the ending, how is that a problem? They aren't always there anyway so why would they care about this tournament?
And Bulma's complaint was that she only saw Goku "inbetween training trips", which actually work well with him constantly training on Beerus planet and with Broly and as such not bothering to drop by in years.
The only 2 true problems are Bulma looking younger (which can be explained by differences in art style) and Goten and Trunks if they still look like toddlers, beyond that everything still pretty much works or are minor retcons at best
I don’t think Vegeta even knew about Uub until the tournament in the OG end of Z, whereas Vegeta has known about Uub for a while, at least since the Universe 6 arc (Since Goku mentions him to Vegeta). So yeah, end of Z has been retcon’d for a while and increasingly so since then
I think Goku's gonna wear his new gi exactly at the tournament. He knows Uub will be there and that he wants to teach him. No longer is he the trainee, now it's Goku's time to be the master. He won't teach Turtle style solely, he's learn from so many masters it would be reductive of him not to include Kami, King Kai, or Whis' percepts as well. So his old orange gi wouldn't be approrpiate. His new gi will reflect on that, being that he'll teach Uub the Goku style of martial arts.
At least it's the way I see it happen.
And teach him ultra instinct, or the principles of it? Im down for that
@@lapplandkun9273 no but he can carry out all his inner potential
Hey Masako, as one purple haired time traveler said. Time traveler could have change the timeline
The end of Dragon Ball Z has been retconned for a long time now.
In the original DBZ, Buu was supposed to be the last strongest being they ever encountered. Then they had 10 years of peace and no challenges.
Goku only cares about training with or fighting against the strongest people. Do you really think Goku would give 2 craps about Uub when he’s already encountered beings unimaginably stronger than Buu was? Goku would want to keep training with Whis, not abandon his family to go live and train with some third world country kid.
0:52 Uub had potential but GT squandered it. I hope you can make Uub a compelling character if you feature him in future videos of any What If stories someday.
Not even Majuub could fix it.
@@MasakoX Aye and that's where What Ifs come in to fix that and show how it is properly done.
Honestly I don’t think Uub would work in Super either, with the exception of the human Z-Warriors EVERYONE outclasses Uub by such a large amount that he’d be an afterthought in half an arc.
Dragonball Deliverance was a pretty good version of Uub
Maybe I chose the right hill to fight on lol. I never liked the argument against DBS tension just because of the End of Z. It could always change, new universes or characters could influence events before or after it. End of Z was never the be-all-end-all.
Edit: Forgot to mention. I'm not sure if brand recognition is what keeps Goku's gi the same, and least not on its own. A part of brand recognition is also remaining accurate to what people know. In this case, people know the End of Z. It'd actually be more marketable from an end of Z perspective to use the blue gi to get people excited. Not using it could mean the End of Z won't actually be be important to the plot. It's worth a thought.
I think not changing his outfit is more or less also paying tribute to not just his former masters but on a sentimental note it is the outfit his Grandpa Gohan used when training with Roshi. The blue clothing represented the struggle he endured to have weighted clothing on him and when he met King Kai they were added with least for that battle a time to be somewhat special.
Not to mention in every battle he has mostly done in his adult life that outfit has endured much punishment with him. While sure new cloths do happen but are shown only for a brief time on a more sentimental level Goku has been through a lot of his battles with it, and his connection to his past makes me okay with him wearing the same clothing for the majority of his life.
Yeah, I thought this was already known. Hell Kasior said it himself, Trunks second trip the past created a 'Time Boom' (like a sonic boom). Which altered everything again after he arrived. But not just altering things after Future Trunks arrived, but also altering something things that came before it. Meaning the second Future Trunks arc, triggered the Battle of Gods arc. It makes sense why the Gods hate time travel so much. Because a 'Time Boom' travels forward and backward through time, though its effect weakens the further back in time.
There is one possibility that could honestly let them follow the storyline and yet keep the end of Z still in place: At the very end of Super, whenever they decide to finalize it, Shenron is summoned and someone "accidentally" wishes for something along the lines of "I wish Goku had never met Beerus" or "I wish Beerus never woke up from that nap x amount of years ago".... something that would on the turn of a dime just completely erase the timeline of Super from existence... (this is just a theory I came up with, but who knows what the future will hold).
dude shenron cnat make wish like that hapen eh not storng only gt shernon and super shenron can and evne fi you erase super guss what thy wodo make zmashu alvie witch is bad
Goofy thought from a goofy casual. That would be the worst thing to do
That would literally make the entirety of super pointless
I don't know if anybody else feels this way but I feel like DB Super is destroying everything that was Dragon Ball. It just doesn't feel like Dragon Ball to me, it feels like the stereotypes of Dragon Ball have been taken and amplified. Kind of like somebody took what they found entertaining and through the rest of it away. I don't know maybe it's just me.
Not only you it's also me and many more true Dragon ball fans can Understand the feeling of nostalgia canon
It would be nice if they fixed all the plot holes in super hero - end of Z like maybe beerus and whis are busy with something and that's why they aren't there, Bulma accidentally get returned to her end of Z look by a wish maybe by pilaf to return to their actual ages. Maybe Goku is gifted the gi by whis as a good luck in the upcoming tournament which they can't attend and the biggest elephant in the room Goten and Trunks could train in a new room of spirit and time post destruction of earth by buu for a day and age one year and emerge as young adults. The non use of power ups in the tournament is simple after everything that happened at the last tournament one of them suggests it's best if they don't use them in the tournament.
In GT a lot of time had passed with everyone getting older Vs in Super its only been a few years since the Tournament of Power and the fight with Broly. I think they're going in the right direction as far as them aging. Not to mention Pan is a lil' bit older now and we haven't seen what Goten and Trunks look like yet in the movie.
13:15 - I still prefer human characters that aren't as powerful as the others. Krillin is my favorite character in the franchise for a reason. It's one thing to stand up to villains when you've got infinite amounts of untapped godlike power and can do a million things in an instant, but it's another thing altogether to do so when you're not the most powerful and not the best.
I liked that too until super ruined it with resurrection f and near the top with that forest episode. In resurrection f he just stood there when it came to Frieza and in that forest episode he got scared by all those villains
@@christopherford39 That's just bad writing. That's not necessarily his fault. But the major misstep for Super still has to go to the end of the Future Trunks arc. That's when the series jumped the shark. How do we fix the fact that Earth was destroyed in his timeline? We'll just do the same thing they did in Rick and Morty. Nobody will notice.
Man I can't wait until they make the manga into an anime so I can start watching you again. I miss you MasakoX
That intro just reminds of the back of “The End” chapter from A Series of Unfortunate Events
to me super just isn't canon, Toriyama is past his prime