Why you’re probably reading the Bible wrong | Rob Bell | Big Think
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
- Why you’re probably reading the Bible wrong
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Religious scholar, pastor, and all-around fascinating guy Rob Bell thinks that most everyone teaching religious texts these days is teaching it wrong. It's a lot of parables and metaphors, he posits, and there's no way that people should be reading religious texts like the Bible or the Quran literally. As we've seen over the course of history, the more fundamentalist the approach to religion, the more destruction is caused. Apply the stories to the historical context to which they came from, he says, and you'll learn to appreciate religious texts a lot more. Rob's latest book is What Is the Bible?: How an Ancient Library of Poems, Letters, and Stories Can Transform the Way You Think and Feel About Everything.
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ROB BELL :
Rob Bell is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and spiritual teacher. His books include Love Wins, How to Be Here, What We Talk About When We Talk About God, Velvet Elvis, The Zimzum of Love, Sex God, Jesus Wants to Save Christians, and Drops Like Stars. He hosts the weekly podcast The Robcast, which was named by iTunes as one of the best of 2015. He was profiled in The New Yorker and in TIME Magazine as one of 2011’s hundred most influential people. He and his wife, Kristen, have three children and live in Los Angeles.
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TRANSCRIPT :
Rob Bell: Yeah, oftentimes when people talk about sacred texts, for many people the sort of thing that you say to show how serious you are is “Well, you know, we take it literally.”
That actually has caused an extraordinary amount of destruction in the world. So I begin with, I try to take it LITERATELY. So if it’s a poem, then it’s a poem. And if it’s a letter, who wrote it, and when did they write it, and who are they writing it to?
What was the world like at that time? If it was history but the writer is kind of winking along the way like “This is what I’m really saying,” then you take it with that subtlety and nuance and even humor.
So all religious texts have to be interpreted, and the really dangerous thing is when someone says “I’m not giving you my opinion. I’m just telling you what it says.” Because that’s actually their opinion!
If you deny human agency it generally leads to some sort of oppression or exploitation. So everything gets way more interesting when you start reading it literately because you then don’t have to do those awkward explanations.
One of the greatest examples of this is there’s this ancient story about Jonah who gets swallowed by a fish. Not a whale, a fish. Because that’s what it says in the ancient text. And so the question often becomes a debate on whether or not a guy really got swallowed by a fish.
And you have the literalists going “it says he got swallowed by a fish, he got swallowed by a fish.” And then you have the others going “no, it’s a larger metaphor.”
But what’s interesting: as the story begins, the Assyrians were the worst neighbors. They were the cruel oppressors who had made life miserable. And so this man Jonah is told go and bless Nineveh, and Nineveh was the capital of Assyria.
So the story begins with a man being told “go bless your worst most heinous enemy.” And he doesn’t. He goes the other direction. He runs away, which I think the original audience would have cheered this man Jonah on. “You go the other direction! Whatever you do don’t go bless the person who has made your life a living hell.”
So he eventually gets on a boat. There’s a storm and he’s thrown overboard and he’s swallowed by a fish. I think the power of the story is not arguing about whether or not he was swallowed by a fish. I think the story was told to a group of people to confront them with how they cannot forgive their worst enemy.
And will the past and the wounds that you have suffered define you and hold you back, or can you forgive? Can you move towards your enemy, not with violence, but with love? Do the things that have happened to us define us, or is there a love that can transcend even this?
So this would be a classic example to me where there’s an ancient text and a story where you can in your attempt to defend it literally actually avoid the more interesting questions of the heart that I think are the questions the storyteller is trying to get at.
And yes, in our world to this day, taking some of these texts literally has caused so much violence.
You read the ancient text. You also use your mind. You listen for what new thing might be happening in the world. You read it as a fully orbed experience, and then it actually gets quite inspiring.
I started reading Bible few weeks ago. I'm actually enjoying the old testament. So much action, ploys, murders and drama, just like Bronze Age Game of Thrones.
Mr. Stratocaster With the exception of the Watchers in the Wall. IMO, I enjoy most the imagery in Genesis and Revelation. If you like books more like LotR, tho, I really recommend the Edda
I tell most believer of today to start with the Book of Acts. which brings Christianity up to date. With Saul's conversion, the book of Romans (Road to Salvation). Paul's prison letters to the Gentile Church. Law was good/ but Jesus died on the cross, made it a whole new ball game. plus his resurrection with power. (This day have I begotten thee).
+Eric Well said Eric 😃
Mate Marijan
Which version are you reading?
Niggatello the 5th Ninja Turtle It’s actually because the kids are mocking him for being devout (he’s not actually bald, I forget the exact meaning) but that doesn’t make it any better
"The bad thing about all religions is that, instead of being able to confess their allegorical nature, they have to conceal it." - Arthur Schopenhauer
Absolutely well said!! It’s unfortunate it has to be that way, but it seems to me that concealing in with its Godly overtone is what gives it weight and sustains it through time.
I wish we were all perfectly rational humans, but these values from the Bible seem to break down and lose their value when not connected with this hyper-literal Godliness.
I’ll definitely do some research on Arthur! Thanks! 👍🏽
@@Quinnjavi yes, brilliant observation 👏🏻
Religious people don’t see the Bible as allegory, they see it as literal. So this doesn’t add. Arthur wants people to admit something they don’t believe and then believes they’re concealing a nonexistent position.
Great video, as a christian I think that this is the biggest threat to the church nowadays and we really need to evaluate ourselves to make sure we aren’t becoming like the Pharisees
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus pbuh and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secret text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim [ line of ismail ]
Over and OVER the bible tells you it's allegory, Jesus himself tells you he talks in riddles.
It's quite simple once you actually stop and read the "sayings". For example, Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
This is Buddhism, it teaches death of the Ego. That passage tells us to look between the thoughts, for the thoughtless space to enter the kingdom of heaven, aka: Nirvana.
Taking that book literally shows your "Sin" (incomplete knowledge). It would seem no-one can read. It tells you perfectly clearly that the language is esoteric, and not literally of the physical world,
2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
The story of Jesus is a tale of your own biology, kundalini, but you're all so brainwashed and indoctrinated, that you refuse to see anything but what some power crazy lunatics tell you
Go to youTube and look up "From New Age to Jesus - My Testimony" Steven Bancarz
Cynthia Hunter yep that pretty much some this guy up. Another teaching that is good is warren.b.smith.
@Northern Wolf Oh look, here comes someone claiming things I never said. I never mentioned the new age, or India, you did.
I don’t need to rely on the thoughts of others to form my understanding. I learned to read the bible myself, without anyone else’s preconditioning. I don’t need told what to think. I did what it says, and went to the only place it tells us to go, within. Same as the Vedas, Quran, and many other teachings.
Buddhism can be used as retroductive on all of them to put into plain terms what each and every cultures scriptures teach about human psychology.
If you believe that Christ consciousness isn’t being taught, then you’ve never learned to read, just follow. Care for your own soul.
@Northern Wolf Now I know for a fact you’ve never learned to read for yourself. You’re a follower of religion, not Christ’s words.
Jesus never existed, he’s an aspect of human psychology, a state of mind. A figure used to tell a story about what goes inside ME, the same as Krishna talks about what goes on inside ME, but I sure that reference will go clean over your head.
“ except through me” you have no idea what you’re reading.
Have fun in your “sin”.
@Northern Wolf You have been brainwashed by religion.
You don’t know Christ, nor God, it’s clear in what you write.
All of us can walk on water. All of can rise above the sea of emotions. Again, you have no idea what you’re reading.
I really appreciate how you preface this by saying that there ARE people who read the Bible literally, and that they ARE dangerous. That's the important part people. It's totally fine to read the Bible, as long as you don't take it literally.
Is that what they said? Thanks! I dont need to watch it now, if they aint reading their bible literally then they are as lost as many others who pick and choose what is literal, and what is not.
Read the Bible as a fiction in fifth grade. Told my mom that there was a problem because the same story was repeated several times. She had a good laugh.
try making " Why you’re probably reading the Koran wrong " and see the downvotes form hypocrites...
Reading? They can DO that?
I guess the men are permitted...
Like Evangelicals on steroids.
Reading the Bible "literately," made me become an Atheist, literally!
Bell hss succeeded then
So if read metaphorically then you’re a metaphorical atheist?
and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:3
You’re not reading the Bible trying to get to know God and the work of Christ. You’re looking for reasons to hate authority over your life.
@bob dunson 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. - Psalm 14:1
You also hate authority over your life. I believe in the God of Abraham because He is the creator. Paintings have a painter. The home you live in was built. You’d never think that a book, with letters and page numbers and pictures just fell from the sky and made itself. But you have that worldview with the book of life, DNA. Your worldview is based off of foolishness and you end up stealing my worldview which makes sense of good and evil. In yours we’re descendants of fish and so theirs no real meaning to life at all, you live and you die, your no more than the rocks you step on. So if your gonna attack someone’s faith, you might wanna remember that. And studying religions I can see how they only distort the Bible or give into occultism. You’re in rebellion against God. Repent and believe the gospel.
@bob dunson The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? - Jeremiah 17:9
You’re relying on your own understanding and revealing your own fallenness. You didn’t understand what I was telling you. You’re sitting here complaining about God when in your worldview you can’t even justify why His actions are evil. Buddhists at least understand this and believe good and evil is an illusion and even they would see how deprived your foundation is. We don’t matter. We’re star dust that doesn’t have any real value. If someone blow up the world today you can’t even call that evil. We’re highly evolved ants. I believe we were created by Yahweh and everyone deserves respect because they’re made in his image. He is holy, completely different than us and morally perfect. That’s why He is justified in taking life and showing wrath. We’ve sinned. Everyone dies because of it. He allows evil to exist to show His power and justice against it. It’s nonsense to believe there was no personal force in the creation of all things. I’m not claiming I’m any better than you, because I’m not. I understand my need for Jesus to be reconciled to God. I pray for you man, it sounds like you’ve been hurt and hold a lot of hate.
I like reading the bible, it brings me joy and a sense of God's love for me. I am a believer.
Cool, man.
I don't take it seriously. But my niece just *LOVES* Harry Potter.
It brings her a sense of love towards the wizarding world, and it gives her a sense of joy.
Now, do you think someone should tell her that it's not *factual* or would that be rude?
What if someone told you that the Bible is about as Fictional or Factual as Harry Potter?
@@GoodAvatar that was the least compelling argument i have ever encountered for new atheism vs christian heritage. in youtube comments or in person. you are extraordinarily unaware of yourself. maybe not as much as this beyond psychology guy but really bad effort bud.
😂😂💯
@@josephawheeler140 A Story can inspire and Give meaning to People Human Being have been telling Stories to eachother for a very long time why are the Stories about your God so special! The Bible is just a Story book People where inspired by the Stories told to them by their Storytellers a very long time Before your God was was even Imagined
@@GoodAvatar one of the most ignorant comments of the subject I've ever seen
Jonah's message was for Nineveh to repent, "or in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown", not to "bless your worst enemy"............
d347b2 thru his message of repentance Nineveh repented and was blessed. Just as Jonah knew God would do. Jesus. This is what bell was talking about.
Actually no mention of repentance in his message. He didn't even give a turn or burn message, just a, you're gonna burn in 40 days message.
He is right. It should be read as literature because IT IS LITERATURE. The best idea is to realize that it is not sacred or divine, but a product of human imagination and creativity.
That is true and profound. Everyone should realize this.
Joel Joseph it is divinely I spires because of over 300 prophesies it has fulfilled. The Gospels are wrotte as a historical narrative. The are certain poetical books in it.
Over 300 prophecies? Are they actually prophecies or just small things that people said they would do and actually did? And what about all of the failed prophecies in the bible? And all the the other things that it got wrong? How do you explain that from a 'divinely inspired' book? faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm
I don't know, but that's pretty inconsistent for a divine book...
Love a bit of fearmongering.
Joel Joseph A product of imagination which iz what makes it sacred and divine just as much as anything else we create.
You do realize that “human” iz just a mental construct right? It’s a word describing a thought pattern which iz a belief. You believe you are a human because you’ve always been told that and so many others who never really questioned it and just believed just like you all think you are this identity that gives you a false sense of self. Who are you if you are not human?
You experience your imagination and dreams. If the physical universe iz real then our imagination and dreams are even more real as our thoughts become things. Your perception iz what you THINK the world iz. Everything iz a thought.
This is almost word for word what I was taught at school when I was like 10 years old. I'm slightly worried that this is something that might be considered to be "Big Think" material nowadays.
Well, for many christians, lessons for a 10 year old IS about as big a think as it gets for them.
That's exactly what I was taught at the age of ten, 45 years ago. Why is this a stunning, Big Think idea? Did folks half a century ago have a much deeper, more nuanced conception of the Bible? Pretty good for a bunch of smartphone-lacking, Internet-less, 7 TV channel-watching cavemen, huh? 😉
Valid. People have been taught this way for hundreds of years actually.
"Get their minds while they're young" disgusting.
No one actually said that but that's what they do.
_Galaxia_ Actually, something similar was said by Spencer Dryden, best known as drummer for Jefferson Airplane and New Riders of the Purple Sage:
"Get them while they're young and bend their minds"
www.quoteikon.com/spencer-dryden-quotes.html
He also played with The Dinosaurs, and The Ashes (later known as The Peanut Butter Conspiracy). 😊
Taking the Bible as literal truth is like taking the 3 little pigs story as true and literal.
Jesus refers to Jonah as a historical character. Jonah 1:1 starts with "And the word of the Lord came to Jonah, son of Amittai," which shows he is a real person and a prophet. Bell makes 2 mistakes: 1) Jonah was not sent to bless Nineveh but to call it to repentance (and they did repent); 2) Bell offers a false dichotomy -- either Jonah is just a literal story of a man swallowed by a fish OR it has rich metaphorical meaning. Jonah is both literal and is packed with meaning, showing God's mercy to Jonah, the pagan sailors on the ship (who came to believe in the true God), to Nineveh, and even to its animals! The 3 days in the fish and Jonah's survival (or revival from death) is the "sign" Jesus refers to in Matthew 12 of his own resurrection.
TheExastrologer excellent response. Rob Bells encouragement to read the bible literately is good advice but his problem comes from taking clear historical accounts and saying they are just poetry.
Where's the metaphor in Exodus 21? “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."
Or when Jesus says “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
How christians read the bible:
1) If it's something they agree with then it's god's literal truth.
2) If it's something they don't agree with then it's parable, metaphor, mistranslated, misunderstood, and definitely not literal truth.
Scarletpooky except quite a bit it intentionally parable, metaphor, and poetry. Some folks just wont discern something spelled out for them.
Scarletpooky No, if I say something like "My world grinded to a halt" you would know that in modern day vernacular that I wasn't saying that literally the world halted, I didn't intend it to be literal. We read it as it was intended to be ready by the author as much as we can.
And yet _somehow,_ the staunchest fundies will say it's the inerrant, literal "word of god."
Scarletpooky Goddamn amen.
Those are bad christians.
For me:
1) I read Bible as it is. Is the good thing or the bad thing based on God's order or human's act? Wheter I am agree or not, yet I still had a stand point so I am not confused by the verse on it that is Rome 12:2 *"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will."*
2) This conflict just proving that Bible has been translated as honest as possible, nothing to be hidden. And I am still able to understand that I'm not supposed to know how God doing His work because Job had confronted God Himself and God has the power over him. Job 38:3 *"Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me."*
I completely agree. Trying to defend a literal interpretation of slavery, genocide, superstition, etc requires disturbing mental gymnastics while a literate interpretation allows us to gloss over those things as just bronze age stories. It gives us a valid reason to cherry pick what we take from a book that otherwise would be considered amazingly horrid.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus pbuh and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secret text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim [ line of ismail ]
You shouldn't tell anyone how to read the Bible. Just tell them TO read the Bible, everything IS literal aside the obvious NT parables and the book of Revelation, which is a hybrid of literal prophecies and symbolic fulfilment. The Bible is the divine, inspired word of God - and does not condone oppressive slavery, murderous violence and lawless sensuality.
Joshua B Amen !!
if you take this advice and subscribe to what Rob Bell is saying then you don't have an empty tomb with no resurrected savior and no hope with an empty gospel. this is dangerous advice people.
My question to Christians is, if we are fallen beings born in sin, how can we be sure about what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively? If there was an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being, wouldn't this being make its message transparent, clear, and without the need of scholars and esoteric access to knowledge to get his right. Especially if the beings who are to receive the message could end up in eternal torment if they don't get it right?
If you read the bible literately, you'll enjoy the Recovery Version study bible.
Try and convince Ken Ham of that.
Imagine if the video was titled "Why you’re probably reading the Quran wrong".
I mean... if you understand the history of the Quran and the Hadiths... people ARE probably reading it wrong..
Exegesis = reading the Bible in literal context. (who the scriptures were written by, written to and why)
Isigesis = how God wanted the writing's to be applicable to you and your life
If you're not reading the Bible like this..
You will be driven crazy or just be turned off
András Kovács cry baby atheists.. need not reply.
András Kovács
Ah yes, rape and baby killing, two of the highest praised virtues of the Bible. 🙄
Exodus 22:18 King James Version (KJV)
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
How are we supposed to interpret that almighty Rob?
Fake Dufas It’s not a dichotomy of translation. The book seems to be mixed with various forms of literary devices, and consequently there are “literal” aspects contained throughout such as the verse you mentioned.
Are all commands given to apply to everyone? Or are some more specific in their subject?
It means we should execute witches, what else? What, you into witches, son? You into eating kids, son? Fuck outta here
Any biblical scholar will tell you, the first step is not how we should interpret it. Your line of thinking is the same as many fundamentalist Christians who are seeking to justify themselves.
Interpret it as a literal window into the culture of that day and in that region, and as a direct precedent for the execution of practitioners of "magic" in nations like Saudi Arabia today.
So my question to this man is ...given that religious text should not be taken literally , was Jesus a real person and did he really die and resurrect ? cause if he did not then I don't really see the point of the theology.
He believes the gospels are literal, but that Genesis is not. Seems like the only part of scripture he takes very literally.
But you’re right, if you don’t take the gospels and acts literally there isn’t really any point to the theology.
*Gospels are far from literal. The Qur'an is the most literal inspiration we have from God, but even it contains errors: So you wonder, why even believe in God? Why care? For this, you simply need to rephrase your question. The question you should be asking is, should I invest my time? Should I pray above, for signs from anyone, expecting that they really would really give them? Would they prove it to me? The simple answer to these questions is, if you're dedicated to knowing if God is real or not, or who **_IS,_** if you give up spare time and pray seeking truth, you will quickly find out your answer. That's all I got, I can't open any doors for you but this one key: Is the truth worth living for, or do you want to live for only this life? It's an easy question. Rely on your intelligence..*
@@jareddeleon8836 Hey man, I see this was posted a long time ago, but I hope you do see this...
God (Yahweh) teaches us that we are not to do things in our own strength for He alone is our strength (even reading scripture takes faith and you lack faith if you rely on your own understanding):
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." - Proverbs 3:5-6
"Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always" - 1 Chronicles 16:11
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
" - Phil 4:13.
We cannot rely on our own intelligence because that means that it is possible to journey with God without His word, but the scriptures say "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." - Psalm 119:105.
By saying "Rely on your intelligence", you are inferring it's possible to find God without His scripture... In addition to that, there are people that have little intelligence, does this mean that they cannot find God? No, God is loving and this is why we have the scriptures, with beautiful stories to entice even the most simple of people. It all points to Jesus and the fact that God loves His people. He's given us a lamp to light our way to/with Him.
Pretty much beside the point. The bible is allegorical in nature and to argue whether it's to be believed literally or not is clearly divisive and pernicious. There's an awful lot that humanity has lost and forgotten about spiritual matters over time and to believe in scripture to be dogmatic and literal is a mistake and besides the point. Deep Truths are revealed to those that are ready for them and the bible is a magnificent book of Truth. It has several layers of meaning but it needs to be studied properly to gain the timeless Wisdom that is contained within
I fully agree, and this applies not only to the Bible/New Testament, but also to the Torah/Old Testament and the Qur'an.
Islamic scholars, in fact, refer to these scriptures collectively as Umm al-Kitab -- the Mother of Books.
This makes sense because all came from the same ultimate source, and since we find that this source makes extensive use of parable and metaphor in some parts of this work, we should expect them in all its parts.
I should add here that I believe God encourages us to read all three scriptures, because each sheds light on the others, and it may even be indispensable to a full understanding of any of them.
I hate this line of reasoning. The Bible is said to be a book of divine inspiration. So why is slavery condoned? Is that a poem or a letter too?
The problem is people who read anything and call it sacred. No words are sacred.
The Bible, like all religious works is a philosophical text. It's a collection of ideas wherein the authors strive to better humanity towards a Utopia and the elimination of suffering through allegory and mythology. It's a teaching tool towards that end. To some such as Immanuel Kant, revelation towards such a goal is divine inspiration. For something to be sacred it only need be cherished. Saying nothing is sacred is only a reflection on your own values and not a worldly Truth.
Soletestament There is no such thing as a worldly truth since as you say yourself every truth is a reflection of your own values. As the saying goes, every truth is a half truth.
But where is slavery condoned? Hell, every seven years was the year of jubilee where slaves were freed, payed and helped to be established as land owners.
So I'm confused.
You're losing objective reasoning here. Times have changed and so has the ideal of preserving human dignity. In that era slavery was not viewed the same as after the emancipation proclamation. Please, THINK and analyze before you react. I'm not even Christian ,yet I see the aim wasn't to bring people into a state of fear but rather to recognize within ourselves, the things we need to change.
Because Slavery is not wrong
How literate of you Rob!
BTW
He was told to preach to them to repent or be destroyed.
More Rob Dell please. I really wish he, John Shelby Spong and Fred Rogers could have had a talk.
Any respectable seminary teaches that the Bible often speaks in hyperbole and isn’t meant to be interpreted literally. How many people literally speak to mountains and cast them into the sea?
It's so great - I can believe that God can and did have Jonah swallowed by the fish and simultaneously focus not on that but on the actual point of the story which was obedience to a radical call from God to love your enemies (in this case by warning the Assyrians to repent from their wickedness, saving them from destruction). I may or may not agree with the rest of his book on the Bible (because I fully admit I haven't read it yet) but the enablement of people, especially Christians during the 'deconstruction/reconstruction' phase of their faith journey, to use our God-given brains and look at the text and put it in context and interpret it 'literately' in a spirit of intellectual rigor and humility to just how prescient and inspired this book truly is...It's quite a beautiful thing and I'm thankful to God for the opportunity to find Him!
In other words, a whole bunch of interpretation, speculation, and guess work.
yeah u can say that
Well, I have to hand it to him. Portraying the Bible as more like a life coaching guide than a religious canon is certainly an ingenious tack to take. Do the incense burners get replaced with hookahs?
He said it's bad to listen to others interpretions of the bible.... But then he gives a very dangerous way to percieve the Bibles beliefs. Dan Mohler is some1 that helps u form a strong foundation and understanding 100% correctly the fundamentals. Like what the gospel is and how to get born again into God's spirit. An Todd white is really great too! He was mentored by Dan. You'll never find a bad vid on Dan Because he's so loving and caring and really hears God speak to him alot.
really? you actually buy that bullshit? You actually believe someone can speak with a fictional character?
The Bible can be likened to a loving and patient teacher seeking to describe to a savage the actual physical dimensions, smells, sounds, and abilities and size of an elephant, starting with its tail, or Genesis. It is a letter from God that simply gives us a thousand hints as to who, how, and what He is.
I'm not sure Rob Bell has actually read the story of Jonah.
From Jonah, Chapter 1, 'The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”'
And from Chapter 3, 'Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” ... Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.'
He wasn't to "bless" Nineveh, his aggressor state, but to warn them of their imminent destruction by a wrathful god! After they appeased God's impending wrath, he then forgave them. Jonah then gets pissed at God for relenting, and God chides him for his anger, even expressing concern for the inhabitants of the city, which makes one wonder why he wanted to destroy it in the first place. Oh, so they've repented, and NOW you suddenly care about them, when a month ago you wanted to destroy them!?
Says a lot about God's character, and that can be taken literately (in case you were about to criticize me for bashing God). He's got severe personality issues. See how much the story changes when you read what it says rather than just "interpreting it" in such a way to make you feel good?
I despise religious apologists.
As a religious apologist, I hate Rob Bell.
What you’re describing: “just reading it in a way that makes you feel good” is exactly what he does.
Jonah didn’t want to warn Nineveh, he was afraid of them and preferred that they be destroyed, but God intended them to have the opportunity to correct their ways.
Where I disagree with you is this, God’s actually super consistent here. “Y’all f*cked up, fix your sh*t, or else.”
So they fix it.
“Good job everyone, judgement is called off.”
I mean this is literally what every law and government do, so I don’t get your argument there.
BlackEpyon agreed. Not to mention the fact that there is continuous suffering in the world today right now as you read this there are children that are suffering and Agony and dying and their parents are suffering the pain of the loss of their children and vice versa and God has all the power where he could just snap his fingers and then all human suffering right now supposedly and doesn't do it and yet many of those children never would have had the opportunity to go to the so-called heaven so he created these people to go straight to hell he created everything in the universe including evil so how does this make God a good person because in the story of Jonah that you just mentioned God can see the future and has a plan how did he not know this was what was going to happen to Jonah sounds like he set him up for failure.
+Segata Jonshiro
Actually, God didn't say that he'd relent if they repented. The book is short, and not a lot of detail is given, but if we take Jonah 3:4b "...Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown," to be a statement from God via Jonah, then the mercy shown wasn't even implied.
God DID promise to destroy Nineveh, and then God changed his mind. God's original intention, as implied by the story, was to let Nineveh know who was about to destroy them (since God likes to be the center of attention), not to scare them into being good.
Laws and governments don't relent when you apologize... When they threaten to punish you for committing crimes, they just DO it! The law means nothing if it is not enforced.
You're just interpolating and inserting your own "facts" where they don't exist, the same as Rob Bell.
Frankly the only thing about this story that's believable is Jonah's reaction. The fish is certainly the least believable part. Even whales capable of catching a man in their mouth can't actually swallow him (esophagus is too small).
But Nineveh's response? They had gods of their own, and probably hadn't even heard of the tribal deity that the Hebrews worshiped, much less would they have taken him seriously. What reason did they have to believe this washed-up soothsayer? The Assyrians were polytheistic, but Yahweh wasn't one of their pantheon. At best, SOME credulous and overly superstitious people would have taken him seriously, not wanting to piss off a god they'd never even heard of. But wouldn't the authorities have arrested him for causing a public disturbance? Or worse, for making a fuss about the wrath of a god what wasn't a part of their pantheon? Not sure the priests of Marduk would have approved.
BlackEpyon
Lol. There are numerous spots in the Old Testament where God does exactly the same thing. Sends his prophet to tell the King that he’ll die, prophet leaves, king begs God to let him live, prophet comes back same day and tells him that God heard his prayers and he will live.
It’s not interpolating, it’s a common theme in the OT
“Laws and Governments don’t relent when you apologize..”
Apparently you’ve never dealt with the IRS. When you’re found to be in violation of something you’re notified and given a deadline to respond. Ever heard of having your sentence shortened for good behavior? How about when a cop pulls a gun on you and you surrender? Is the cop being a hypocrite by changing his mind about shooting you?
You equating punishment with hatred and uncaring, and then a forestalling of punishment with sudden, hypocritical caring is you inferring a certain character on God’s actions. You’re literally doing the same thing you’re accusing others of doing, but in your case it’s to argue your belief that the OT is inconsistent and God has a questionable moral character.
And yes, I’m aware of the popular pantheon of Mesopotamia at the time, but who knows _what_ was going on in Nineveh in 780 BC or so when Jeroboam II was ruling Israel. That said, we *do* know archaeologically that his reign was supposed to be the wealthiest in Israel’s history, and that _during_ his reign Israel was the most densely populated nation in the Middle East, so to imply that the Ninevites would have never heard of Israel’s god is beyond ignorant, _especially_ since they are described as enemies or rivals of Israel.
Make some sense.
You are right about whales tho.
+Sagata Jonshiro
That would make God consistently inconsistent then, if he repeatedly promised to kill somebody or some population, and then relented when they repented. Apparently, God's "word" means nothing, if he fails to fulfill his promises. Though I have to contrast that to the promise made to King Ahaz, which laughably failed in every conceivable way.
The IRS isn't after your blood. God is, or blood sacrifice would never have been a thing.
Interesting, If you’re going to ignore the text and use your own interpretation then you’re learning nothing and only confirming your bias/predisposition . Sorta of like an ecclesiastical version of the Supreme Court
Every text has its context, if I were to read a Harry Potter book and attempt to take it as a literal description of the world around me then I would probably smash my head into a stone pillar on a train station. Just like Harry Potter if you don't understand the context that it is in (HP is fiction) then you will just be left confused.
OneManWolfPack understand that, but the Bible is supposed to be a book of laws. Immutable ones . Now being agnostic or a non believer then it makes sense to fill in the blanks . But If you believe that God is omnipotent and timeless and speaks through the text, you got to take him at his word. I’m a non believer myself , but I can see how that same mode of thinking has twisted the constitution for the sake of culture
That is why being a learned person is to know the context of the text and and to know the context of the environment some principle is being applied to. It is not easy being faithful
Donza, it's a book of allegory. Not laws. Every section has the context of an author and an audience. And much of what is taught through the book is done through stories intended to impart a lesson. The only people who read the bible literally, cherry picking laws or pointing out contradictions are extremists and the anti-religious. Which makes sense as in order to live in either position requires that you have an all or nothing view of the world. Fortunately that doesn't describe the majority of humanity. Though I'd argue listening and reading comprehension skills have declined overall these past two decades.
Soletestament But if it was a book allegory , don’t you think they would say that ? Assuming that there is a God , I would think he would make his desires more plainer . And in fact , when Jesus does talk in allegory he calls it a “parable”. So why make a distinction in a total uniform landscape ?
Pretty good theory but the problem is there is prophecy of events that happened exactly as described decades after the prophecy was made. There is also events described that literally took place and are provable by modern historians and archeologists. Some of the Bible is literal, some literary, some is precursor events describing the coming of Jesus, and some is all three at the same time.
The guy telling the video is inaccurate. Jonah was not told to bless Nineveh. He was told to tell the people of Nineveh that their city would be overthrown in 40 days.
So Big Think gets the most liberal left “Christian” pastor to talk about religion. Why am I not shocked. After he wrote the book “love wins” the majority of the Christian community rejected him, his ministry, and his theology. However the anti religious left then all of the sudden embraced him and put him on their shoulders and he was on a ton of talk shows. He is a sell out. Plain and simple. I have no hate for him, I just think he found a way to make money at the cost of true Christian theology being thrown out the window.
Hey big think, why not have John Hagee, Dr Michael Brown, Dr. James White, just to name a few that would not agree with Mr. Bell. Just a friendly suggestion.
Maybe some of this theology is off..
But I can show you how the bible clearly teaches God wins..and God is Love .
So Love wins..
mainstream theology is about Fear and Control..
And not in line with God and his Character.
Maybe some of this theology is off, but I can show you how the bible clearly teaches God wins, and God is Hate, so Hate wins.
Hammer I can show you how you're wrong
And God is Love and how Love wins
Go right ahead. Don't forget to include that God killed innocent kittens when He flooded the earth as part of your demonstration.
Rob Bell is not looking good these days but he's up to his same old foolishness.
So when Jesus says that only the sign of Jonah would be given to his generation, what did he mean?
Jesus seemed to believe Jonah was literal history...He would be in the grave 3 days just as Jonah was in the whale 3 days. How does Rob Bell interpret this passage if it isn't true? Oh I know! He doesn't care. Just as long as he can sound good and appear smart and holy.
Ham Bone Jesus was using a pop culture reference, the story of Jonah, to make a point. He wasn't arguing the historicity of the event. I was at a church and the pastor said, jesus makes you an offer that you can't refuse. The pastor was using a pop culture reference to prove a point. Rabbis did that sorta thing.
I agree. Jesus often referenced the Old Testament, especially passages that spoke about Him in advance. So we have an even bigger problem. Was Jesus referencing a lie, or an exaggeration, or a myth about himself? Or was he reminding his followers of the life of the prophet Jonah and applying that _real_ event to himself?
I don't know your particular belief. But this is my issue with Rob Bell's brand of revisionism. If you are going to believe that Jesus actually was resurrected and appeared to people in wonderous ways, but think it is foolish or "too fundamental" to believe God could have actually kept his prophet alive in a giant fish for three days in order to break his hard-heartedness and establish a pre-figure of the Messiah; then why do you believe any of it all?
Ham Bone sir, or ma'am, can't tell from the name. I never once said Jonah didn't experience being in the fish for three days. What I said, or should have expressed better, is that Jesus wasn't trying to prove the historicity of the event. His audience assumed it. He was using that assumption to teach. As for the "prophecies" about Jesus, well, those are taken grossly out of context from the Tanak... For the most part. If any minister today misquoted the bible like the new testament writers did we'd call them a false teacher. Most of the time they were using passages people knew to prove something. That doesn't make it any less real. It would make it less real if they truly believed they were using it in context. That would be insane. You'll disagree, and we won't agree on this issue. That's fine. I don't judge your soul for it. You will most likely judge robs and mine. Hard inerrant believers, whose pope is ink and paper and not Jesus tend to do this.
I admit I have no idea what our disagreement is now...if there actually is one. I believe the bible records actual history, including Jonah, and of course Jesus referenced these stories to teach. You seem to believe the same thing? I can't tell.
// As for the "prophecies" about Jesus, well, those are taken grossly out of context from the Tanak //
I assume you are alluding to Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7, among other passages. How are they taken out of context? What about in Luke 4 where Jesus reads from Isaiah 61 and then announces He is the fulfillment of that passage?
//It would make it less real if they truly believed they were using it in context. That would be insane. //
I honestly don't know what you mean here.
// You will most likely judge robs and mine. Hard inerrant believers, whose pope is ink and paper and not Jesus tend to do this.//
What on earth are you talking about? Am I a "hard, inerrant believer" because I choose to trust what scripture says instead of a popular pastor? You really think that is a negative? What if Rob Bell can be proven wrong in several areas of what he teaches?
"whose pope is ink and paper and not Jesus"...how do you even know who Jesus is except for the ink and paper telling you about him? What kind of nonsense insult is that supposed to be?
Rubellite Fae the manuscript argument is 100 years old and proven wrong. We have manuscripts of the books in the bible from the early 2nd century. The "suppressed" gospels didn't even show up until the third or fourth.
The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible
2 Peter 1:20-21
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
and we the believers understand the Bible through the same Spirit
1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
2000 years of honost Spirit led men a women gave us a pretty general understanding that all Christians agree in, through their understanding of the Holy Scripture by the Holy Spirit of God.
But Rob Bell? Nah!! He understands it “literately”!
Check mate Rob. You New Age guru you!
I enjoyed this comment, thank you for posting it! 1 John 2:27 is perfect scripture to address this! What version was this?
The reason I say "address this":
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Tim 3:16-17
@@djskit5275
TY for replying.
Yeah those verses from Timothy are REALLY good to go with those other ones I posted too. Thanks for adding.
I forget what translation I used I posted this a while ago. Probably NIV though. Coulda been another
@@TheBelovedDisciple144 Thanks again...
Lets keep praying for people under this false teaching
Test what Rob Bell says and find out WHO is actually reading the Bible wrong. The Bible DOES NOT state that Jonah was told to BLESS the Assyrians as Rob Bell states. The message is the exact opposite "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me." (Jonah 1:2). Jonah fled not because he did not want to bless them, but because he did not want them to repent and avoid judgment. I've read 3 of his books and listened to every message I can find and his misrepresentation of Scripture is quite common.
Of course we should not take a 2 thousand year old book literally Bcz it was different time different cultures.
We all know what happens when some people follow one type of book too seriously.
Voice of Reason nope. Even we don't need religious book for unity.
TheBibleSkeptic had some good insight on this when it came to the story of Jonah, how it was very much written from a third person point of view (things Jonah would not have seen) and Jonah himself being very much a caricature of stubborn older religious folks who didn't want to accept the changes and increasing openness that were happening. He even has a line that basically goes "dang, god, why are you so kind and generous and forgiving and all that jazz? I knew this would happen! But I didn't want to accept it!"
That's not a line real people say, it's the sort of line the villain says in My Little Pony just before they change their heart and they sing a song together.
Well... it depends. That's not uncommon in my case. And I am not the only neurodivergent person on this planet. I wouldn't say whether or not real people speak that way. (Only sayin'. I don't care about the religious stuff.)
I rather don't understand when people don't speak like this.
1:12
I agree, everything DOES get more interesting when you read the bable literately.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Amazing how he spoke about the Bible without the mention of God. Jonah was told by God to go to Nineva to preach "repentance to avoid being destroyed by God". They did repent and so God did not destroy them. Yes, Jonah wished they had been destroyed even after they repented. Parables were told without proper names. Proper names were used. True story.
The wiser way to read a religious text, and the "correct" way to read a religious text by the religion's own measure, do not necessarily equal the same thing.
Can we acknowledge that scripture does indeed contain some BS that was meant seriously, and not be so overwhelmed with cynicism by this fact that we can't acknowledge that the scriptures also contain deep and ageless wisdom? To claim that literalists are reading the Bible "wrong" because their reading does not conform to wisdom-only whitewashing is pretentious in the extreme.
Variations of "The Big Book Of Pre-literate Lies" aside, the backstory is seriously deranged. Understandable for the time, but the only reason the Biggest Lie continues to maintain traction is yo' mama. And yo' daddy. They trained you to go to church/temple/mosque and learn that particular myth before you were mature enough to have critical thinking and logic, contextual skills. Then reinforced the myths culturally, within the language and in public morality.
You are NOT to blame for believing in fairy tales, but that belief seriously hampers society's ability to conduct the business of becoming greater for all inhabitants of the planet - human and those we steward (or rather, don't.)
Because there is no right way to read it, since every single text changes its meaning according to what's more convenient for the church at the time.
Yes, this is the way that religious leaders have kept humanity in spiritual blindness and have controlled and enslaved the people by dangerous interpretations of scripture
@@andrewcooper-barnes6165 Indeed, I am hopeful however, that the new generations have finally started to dismiss religion all together and its future leaders won't have and influence on them
This is better than your average tap dance to try to make the Buy Bull seem like it has anything of value to say.
Agreed!
One can get the same thing from comic books.
"The power of the story is not arguing about whether or not he was (actually) swallowed by a fish."
Yup. We tell stories. We have to.
Because we are.
Moment of consciousness. "I am."
Problem with that is the Bible claims to be the word of God and so does it's followers
So... Paul was being figurative when he said that women should not be allowed to teach men? And I should beat my slaves within prescribed situations... figuratively? Ignore just that part because of cultural differences at the time, right? But everything else must be cool?
shyond92 yes. And show me where he said to beat slaves. I'll wait.
Joseph Leppert learn to read on your own time. I'm not going to waste my time identifying verses that any literate person can find with a simple Google search. You want to act like certain verses don't exist in your own Bible? Your life, bro. I couldn't care less what lies you want to tell yourself. Have a great life! I got better things to do than debate people who don't realize that their entire Bible is available online for EVERYONE to see exactly what was written there about all aspects of slavery.
In other words, you've got nothing. Paul wrote an write letter, Philemon, telling his friend you free his slave. If you don't want to do what the bible teaches, that's fine. Don't straw man though.
Joseph Leppert Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.”
-Leviticus 25:44-46
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.”
-Exodus 21:20-21 (RSV)
You are amazing finally someone says it right 🙏🏻✨
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus pbuh and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secret text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim [ line of ismail ]
I enjoy watch this prophet trying to tell God that God has got it all wrong. It is a story of humanity (the prophet) wanting destruction & vengeance while God wants repentance & mercy. What is it about "love your neighbor" that so hard to get?
I have thought everything looked upside down
I've been using it wrong too. I found out 2 ply works better.
Fake Dufas lol
Too funny
Fake Dufas LMFAOOOOOO
Voice of Reason - Apparently, toilet humor is what some consider "big thinking". *rolling my eyes* It's sad that such juvenile comments get applause and guffaws from other immature people who jump on the bandwagon.
I am sure you're joking, but it's really distasteful
It doesn’t matter if it was meant to be taken literally or metaphorically, the fact is that the vast majority of religious people do believe these events actually took place and that these “holy books” are the literal word of the creator of the Universe. You can make the “just moral archetypes” argument, but that’s not how the true believers see it.
👏👏
My family thinks that I’m taking the Bible to literally and I’m beginning to believe them a without thinking. Reading these new verses in the Bible has struck my entire life.
As an atheist I do admit that some parts can be uplifting.
So the recommendation to cut your foreskin was just massive trolling. But people took it seriously and still do it today. ROFL.
I really believe this concept would help so many like me who couldn’t identify with the Bible. I always took it literally and that always turned me off from it! But there is wisdom to extract from the metaphors and the analogies from these stories. It’s how societies know how to act in the world. Without it, government has to take its role and that is a VERY slippery slope.
Definitely subscribing! 👍🏽
Have you looked at the statistics comparing levels of religious belief with measures of societal health?
There is a clear, unambiguous pattern, and it is not what you think.
Nope. Much of it IS literal. He’s deceiving people.
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" - Jesus... Matthew 12:40
"And will the past and the wounds that you have suffered define you and hold you back, or can you forgive? Can you move towards your enemy, not with violence, but with love? Do the things that have happened to us define us, or is there a love that can transcend even this?" The story actually does answer that question. After Jonah prophecies to Nineva, and they repent, He is so angry that he begs God to kill him. The answer is no. What happened too you will supersede what you do, at least if you do so reluctantly.
Well. the comments section is going to be a joy...
Lolll
Burn in Hell. :)
Yep, reading the Old Testament should be like reading Arabian Nights. A cultural time capsule, fiction with potential to inspire or cause thought or just inform about ancient times.
The old? Trying to make a distinction between the fairy tales are we?
Critic (al) Yes, I'm willing to make distinctions when they are appropriate. Not every genre of fiction is the same
Get ready to burn in hell for saying that
RG Fleuridor Yes, covering the whole world in water and saving 2 of every animal on a boat is a great children's story.
RG Fleuridor So Jesus did walk on water, turn water in to wine, raise the dead, heal the lame and return from the grave after being dead for three days?
Taking the Bible literally does not mean ignoring context (historical, literary, or theological), the use of analogy, or progressive revelation. Of course poetry is read differently than prose, who denies that?
The main example of the fish (dag in Hebrew) does not argue against a literal reading. Animals were not categorized in the same way that they are in English, so a dag gadol ("big fish") can refer to what we call a whale or some other large swimming creature.
He says that a literal reading has resulted in much violence but didn't give any real examples to interact with. Sure, there have been plenty of people who have tried to justify immoral behavior using the Bible, but can Rob Bell show that they correctly understood the author's intended meaning, which is what we seek when reading literally?
The alternative to reading literally is reading subjectively, which is ignoring authorial intent and reading your own thoughts into the Bible or whatever other book. Such an approach is really the practice of those who use the Bible to justify terrible actions.
Even Satan can quote Scripture, but Christ showed that it cannot be twisted to say whatever you want it to say.
So we should take it like we do anything else that is written and composed by human beings. Um, that's all that we non-believers have been saying for-fucking-ever. 🙄
So the book says what ever you, the reader, wants it to say?
Or
the book says what ever you, Rob Bell, wants it to say?
"This isn't my opinion. This is my personal interpretation of a passage written thousands of years ago in a language I don't understand."
There you go the Bill O'Reilly argument. Bottom line is it is a book oh myths written by men. See I live in Japan and I see a lot of myth being celebrated all year long. Take Tanabata, my favorite one. It celebrates the meeting of two lovers separated by the Milky way and they're allowed to get together once a year (ohhhh how romantic.) Obviously absolutely no one in sane mind believes literally in it (or even metaphorically.) It's just a tradition (a very very profitable one thank you very much.) And that's how the Jesus myth should be treated. Even though truth be told pretty much everybody treats it that way already (Christmas season anyone?)
Problem is, the writers of the “Jesus Myth” all lived at the same time as him, and died _painfully_ claiming that it was true and that they witnessed it just a few decades after Jesus’s own death.
Pilate is a real historical figure we have records of, why didn’t he deny Jesus existence? Why didn’t he deny that this man was crucified under him? And if it’s only the resurrection that’s fictional, why did the men who wrote it die claiming it was true, when all they had to do was deny it in order to go on living? Moreover we have contemporary historical records and references to Jesus. He’s a well attested historical figure. You may as well argue Alexander the Great was a myth.
The circumstances of the founding of Christianity are completely different from mythological constructions. You can argue that Genesis is just archetypical myth, and you can argue that Jesus was a just a man, but you can’t argue that the gospels are traditional myth. Not historically, textually, or realistically.
I like how the word of God is written in such a way that it could be so easily misinterpreted. Demonstrating Divine Knowledge would have effectively eliminated "faith" as a barrier and God needs that barrier to keep people tithing, I mean... to keep people "saved".
This man is no Leader. Wolf in sheeps clothing.
booooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
As with all sacred texts, the Bible is actually intended to be read right to left.
Truth
Dale Wilson I fail to understand your comment. Are you making a joke about Hebrew being written in another direction, or are you making the argument that all texts must be read as literature?
I’ve noticed also that a lot of people who read the Bible just read it without really thinking about it deeper, they don’t even know the context of some parables in the Bible. Obviously it’s wrong to kill people with no justifiable reason, but some text in the Bible where it talks about killing like in Genesis where Abraham is about to kill Isaac but then God telling him not to do it is a metaphor to show how barbaric & crazy people are with no objective morality, that is a moral system that provides a objective good independent of human opinion with no subjective opinion.
So what was the metaphor behind the part of the Bible that says I should be stoned to death? Genuinely curious.
The Bible is absorbent and makes a lovely liner for any pet piss or shit. Seriously, rip each page out and give it a crumple. Squish it into the bottom of a bird or hamster cage and let your pets make God's word work for you. Goodwill usually has several copies available for cheap.
Are you a good person? Take the test. needGod.com
I'm sorry, but I really can't take any religious text seriously, especially the Bible. Not only does it have various contradictions within it, but it speaks about talking donkeys, talking snakes, 7 headed dragons, cutting off women's hands and showing them no pity if they grab the balls of another man their husband is fighting, putting the spirits of people into pigs and making them commit suicide by jumping off a cliff, etc. The sad thing is there are countless people who actually believe in that sort of nonsense. It's just crazy that people actually believe that humans came from two people who fucked up the future of humanity by eating some fruit from a tree. These people don't need Jesus, they need science.
The fish is important to the story if you understand that the Ninivites worshiped Dagon the fish god, or god of the sea. And Jonah wasn't concerned about Israel forgiving them, he didn't want God to forgive them. But if you're going to inject whatever you want to believe into the book, then why read it at all? Who wants that kind of limitations with their story, just make up whatever you want to I suppose, but do that with every book especially with your college books and see how far you get.
Another reason not to take the Bible as a literal work is that if you are reading it in English it is a translation. So words might have lost some meaning when they go from Hebrew to English; some words don't have a direct translation, some Hebrew words might have multiple meanings that don't cross over, etc, etc. Taking the work literal after a translation can lead to errors.
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1129620
Spiritual Teacher ? You mean scam artist ?
Awesome. So let's just stop trying to derive so-called 'meaning' from these texts
Tamas Egyed Or in anything else at all, while you're at it
Let the Holy Spirit guide u into all truth. Get in prayer and cry out to God and say you don't understand and you need god to open your eyes and help u focus, care, be patient, etc. An btw, Alot of God's words mean more then 1 thing and can intertwine with other words to help u form a new perspective and then u take the perspective and u then keep studying with the new perspectives u get from a scripture or two or even more then 2, can change yr perception so u can understand scriptures that you couldn't understand b4 and more. It's amazing.
Odd, Seemed Jesus took it literally. as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.There are things that are stories and allegories, but when it's literal, it's literal.
tral1
Did you ride the short bus in high school?
tral1 pop culture reference to make his point.
Harry Potter > Twilight > Bible
What about the Quran ?
But Jonah was told to not bless Nineveh, rather curse it
Abhishek Mathew thru his cursing of Nineveh came repentance and the blessing. This is why Jonah ran, because he knew god would forgive. Mr bell is not wrong in his assessment.
A very good point. Lots of christians, and even more muslims, still haven't understood this which has lead to horrific violence and suffering throughout history.
Starting at, 1:56 minutes in, Rob Bell says that God Told Jonah to, *"go bless your worse most heinus enemy"?* He's talking about how most people teaching religious texts these days are teaching it wrong? How about this, Jonah 1:1 and 2, 3:1 and 2 "Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and *cry out against it;* for their wickedness has come up before Me." and... ”Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the *message that I tell you.*” God did not tell Jonah to bless the City, He said to preach against it and all that God told him to say, not to *"bless it."*
Also, the story of Jonah goes beyond what Rob Bell is saying here. He is marginalizing the literal sense of the book of Jonah and emphasizing the figurative. To understand the text anywhere in the bible, it is necessary to *exegete* the text to get out of it the intended meanings, not read into it what you think it ought to say. The whole big fish thing being either literal or figurative? It maybe that Jonah was literally swallowed by a great fish (the human mind tends to envision a whale...) and as Jesus indicated, it figuratively was a prophecy of His burial in a tomb for three days and nights! Matt. 12:39-42 This means that the book of Jonah isn't merely about us loving our worse enemy but, how God's love to save some people was sufficiently carried out by Jesus' death, burial and Resurrection! 1 Corinthians 15...
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.
The proper way to read the Bible is to start the tale with "Once upon a time, in the land of make-believe"
Mastermindyoung14 you need Jesus Christ to save you from hell. The Bible is the written word of GOD, Jesus Christ is THE living word of GOD.
Lmao!! That was fabulous..Bronze age Harry Potter
I don't get it... Christians completely understand the principles of a parable when they use it for spiritual guidance, then they will revert 180 degrees back on another segment of scripture and say it must be taken literally! Don't they see the blatant contradiction in this??
@Smidlee But the only way you *KNOW* about god is through the Bible, *Written in the Material Plane* and Priests, *also ONLY existing in the Prime Material Plane.*
So your argument doesn't really hold up.
If you're going to say that you're a "Spiritualist" then are you *CERTAIN* that *your* spirituality is accurate and everyone else's spirituality is mistaken?
If not, do you believe *EVERYONE'S* Spirituality is correct? That can't possibly be true.
Mark Chippendale
There are portions meant to be taken literally. When Jesus says “here’s a parable”, it’s a parable. When part of the Bible says “here’s a prophecy” it’s a prophecy. When Paul says “don’t drink blood, fornicate, or eat things sacrificed to idols” it’s a literal command. When a history book like chronicles says “and in this year this happened” it’s literal history. When the psalmist sings a song *IT IS A SONG.*
This. Isn’t. Hard.
If you really believe there’s a blatant contradiction please show me an argument or bit of scripture where one part is being enforced and another is being called metaphorical. Usually an entire _book_ is said to be one genre, no one is cherry picking individual sentences or chapters to take literally.
Segata Jonshiro - you are confirming my suggestion... even though Jesus may have quite literally said, "this is a parable", there are way too many of his followers who still don't recognise the allegorical or symbolic nature of his words and believe that it is meant to be taken completely verbatim. This is the idiocy I'm referring to. I'm not suggesting that the biblical words are wrong but that all too many Christians don't understand it or choose whether the interpretation is to be understood literally or as an illustration, depending on who they're talking to or what point they wish to make. It's just a different method of cherry-picking.
Nah, it's not that "materialism" doesn't add up.
It's the only thing there's verifiable proof for.
All of the religions and faiths think the others are wrong. :-P
It's why I don't really believe in mysticism or Wu-Wu.
Not that you care, spammer.
Mark Chippendale
Ah I get you... and I completely agree with you on that front, that’s one of the biggest problems today across the board, people settling for ignorance, just because it comforts their biases..
I feel like the whole world has become literate in the past two centuries, but people still _prefer_ to be ignorant.
That's all I want to do. All my dad has done is force not encourage. I ask to understand and I'm disrespectful. I got questions and Im met with being forced to watch videos about casting out demons and being told I might have one. It drives me crazy and it's terrifying.
See, the problem with this though, is that if you’re going to look at context you also need to look at the state of human knowledge back then. Did people 2,500 years ago think there were giant fish that could swallow humans whole? Yes, they believed in all sorts of things. Therefore, it is not implausible that they would have written this story about Jonah, imagining that the fish thing really did happen. Regardless of whether the story also had a metaphorical meaning, Jonah was believed to be a real historical figure because he’s mentioned in Chronicles, so I find it very plausible that whoever wrote the story did also believe it was literally true.
Sky Monster
This channel is dying
This speaker articulates an idea that is mentioned a lot during arguments but deserves a little more attention of its own. The idea that wisdom/word mostly appreciates like the interest on an investment can be too easy to believe and easy to sell to listeners.
Even if a person wasn't a Christian the bible is the most interesting history book.
reading it at all is the problem
FARKEN BANG Facts
Blindrunning ^
Nah, I think it is perfectly fine to read it. There is no doubt it is a text of grave importance in the history of human civilization. I am actually of the opinion that it would be better if most Christians would read it, so they reach a better understanding of the roots from which their deeply held believes come from. However, I do think it should always be read as a work of fiction, as that is what it is.
It think it's fine to read it for the literary and allegorical value, like homer. But to take it as the ultimate truth about nature and life? nope.
Assumption: A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.
"They made certain assumptions about the comment"
synonyms: supposition, presupposition, presumption, premise, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, theory, hypothesis, postulation, conclusion, deduction, inference, thought, suspicion, notion, impression, fancy; guesswork, guessing, reckoning; guesstimate
"Your comment is only an assumption"
Voice of assumption might be a better handle.
I was going to go with the definition of idiot , but i'll assume you've been schooled on that many times already.
First fantasy book I ever held. Not as good as Lord of the Rings though.
The problem really is that interpreting as literal requires less thought or questioning so its easier to be certain of what you want it to be rather than being confronted with the fact you dont understand.
The bible is a spiritual book but when met with unspiritual thought very destructive interpretations arise.
Its what people bring to it is the problem rather than bringing nothing and letting it reveal its spiritual meaning to you. However literal or symbolic an event is, its spiritual meaning is made no less real.
The guy who proposed Prayer curled from a non biblical character named Honi.
See how former witches respond to this practice.