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I saw a study once that said people are attracted to people who have qualities that they admire and want for themselves. And the opposite is true as well. That people extremely dislike people who have the same flaws as they do. I'm sure it's obviously not true 100% of the time. Since none of us like people who harm children and we obviously aren't child abusers ourselves. But I think it holds true most of the time. Narcissists hate other narcissists. People who are people pleasers don't like other people who are people pleasers. People who are selfish despise other selfish people. Etc.
Lost me at feminism...If only Western bunch were not so caught up in this "progressive" (or degenerative) nonsense we would not be having many of such issues today or would be tackling actual issues.
Wanting the best for someone and trying to help them get better is never wrong. Letting someone get away with doing bad things with no accountability and continuing to support them as if nothing happened because you "love" them is just you allowing them to hurt you and/or other people and that is wrong.
One traditional aspect of relationships I fear we are losing in the modern world is loyalty for the purpose of growth. “Red flag” dating culture encourages identifying traits that are negative as soon as possible in a potential partner, and usually conflates those traits as impossible to overcome. That does not allow either member of the relationship to grow. Excited to listen to this one later today. You make excellent content and deserve all of the following you’ve achieved and more.
@@opossumboyo I think that’s why at times people choose to date later on in their life because there comes a point where the most obvious issues are overcome by most people (obviously not everyone we experience life differently) but the whole point is that we are constantly developing and learning, and we may end up or have had bad traits as the person we are slandering.
Well I'd add that it's not anyone's responsibility to wait with someone and grow. you don't have to date someone you dislike and wait for them to become someone you do.
Maybe a bit off-topic, but as someone who ended an abusive relationship with one of my parents (death threats, physical/emotional/psychological abuse), I oftentimes struggle to talk about it whenever the question of "why have you fallen out with your parent" arrises. Usually, when explaining the whole situation, the people who fail to understand me can be divided into two types. One type tries to justify every act of abuse on my parent's behalf I mention regardless of how bad it is. In their opinion, I have failed as a child to forgive my parent, to see the inherent value of love between a parent and a child, and to somehow salvage our relationship (even though I feel like I have tried everything else but cut them off of my life). The other type argues with me whenever I mention the positives of our parent-child relationship and what I love and appreciate about my abuser as a person. They see it as irrational defence of the abuse and as me failing to see my parent's evilness in its entirety. In both cases, what I tell these people is how that, although I love my parent for everything good they've done to me and appreciate their positive qualities, I do not excuse their behavior whenever I think they went too far. In my view, the first group support an unhealthy version of the "love as an attitude" theory, while the second group leans too hard on the "love as an action" theory. EDIT: For me personally, ideal love is a balance between the two approaches. If love is only an attitude, you're gonna see everyone as having some inherent value that must always be appreciated no matter what. Consequently, you become too allowing of others' bad behavior and will always try to save relationships that are falling apart beyond repair. But if love is only an action, you're gonna see everyone as having to prove their worth to you and if they fail even once, you leave them forever. As a result, you become too selective and unforgiving of others, whilst failing to see any ways the other person can plausibly change themselves for the better.
It's sad how many people are black and white thinkers like you mention. They can only see things in a simplified view, and even weirder they literally get angry when people don't accomodate their thinking of putting everything cleanly in a box. It's scary and irrational and shows such a lack of critical thinking. I think lately a lot of the weirdness has to do with people living in constant fight or flight mode (without realizing it) after the trauma of the panini. The brain doesn't fully function in that mode and more complex thought processes are shut down. Of course, there's always been a segment of the population that thinks like that, but they used to be considered the dysfunctional ones and not the norm
I definitely see myself in the first group you mentioned. Do you have any thoughts on moving past that, and getting to more of that middle ground, where you’re neither too lenient nor too selective?
@@DJMHXSTGSRCC There's a couple things I've thought up that work for me Like, one of them is thinking about how I would act if I was in that position. And if I wouldn't act like them, why? Is it just the difference in our characters, or is it because I'd suspect that I'd hurt the other person if I acted that way? Similarly, if you have a problem allowing behaviors just with yourself, think of one person you love, who you'd want to protect at all costs. Like, a little girl, a younger cousin, maybe a best friend. Would you let them be treated that way? How do you think it would make them feel if you acted like that with them? If you saw someone acting towards them that way, would you let it happen? Or would you step in, would you want to make them stop? Also, it always helps to get outside perspectives. Whether that may be a therapist, a friend, or even like, a teacher (if you have one of those), it can help you set things you much more clearly. It's not to say that love isn't important, or that you shouldn't support people while they grow. It's that you shouldn't value love more than yourself, and you shouldn't support people at your cost.
I think both groups are dumb. In the end it was your choice to end that relationship with your parent and ultimately its none of their business. If you provide them with your reasoning and they fail to understand you I personally don't think you need to go out of your way to make them understand but you can if you want to. The people in the first group also need to understand there's a difference between forgiveness and second chances, they do not always go hand in hand. The act of forgiveness is an internal one it's about you letting go of any negative feelings associated with the person, whether or not you choose to give someone a second chance after forgiving them is up to you. You have to forgive someone in order to give them a second chance, but you don't have to give them a second chance in order to forgive them. The people in the second group need to understand that you can appreciate the good in something without completely dismissing the bad. Appreciating the positives doesn't automatically mean you dismiss and justify the negatives it's called a balanced view where you look at something for what it is in its entirety. I don't actually think the second group leans on "love as an action" they simply misunderstand you. The first group while on the surface seems to lean on "love as an attitude" deep down probably take a lot from "love as an action", I assume that if you state you forgive your parent, they'll bring up second chances which is an action you take. They're a bit more nuanced than they immediately seem so creating a false dilemma and framing them as binary choices probably isn't the best way to look at it. As for the ideal approach to love for the most part I agree that balance is going to be the best option, but it's important to remember that different people are made to feel loved in different ways. Some people may take actions as a greater show of love than attitude whereas others may perceive the opposite to be true. Ultimately, I like a blend of both, to me a loving attitude without the actions to show it feels as inauthentic as a loving action without the attitude. I think most things in an ideal loving relationship are going to involve a blend of both approaches. It's also important to remember that we're dealing with ideals so while they might sound easy and good on paper whether or not reality will reflect that is something you won't know for certain till you experience it.
"The only time I feel good is when I find the evil parts of other people. It makes me feel less alone." Really resonated with me. I feel much more comfortable with people who show me their evil.
Same. That’s why seemingly perfect people in moral regards give me the ick and make me feel bad about myself. I have a friend who is that way. She’s very private and very aware of the way she behaves (I believe). She never gossips (EVER, even the slightest bit comment without an ill intent), always polite, will always do the right thing in a situation. I have conflicting feelings about her. I admire her and I believe she’s a great person but I can’t relate with her. I’m flawed and I know I’m flawed. I don’t use it as an excuse to do bad things but sometimes my flaws take the best of me.
@@myrtila I've been referred to as "little ms perfect" by friends before and I'm always mocked for being sensitive and the mom of the group, so I guess I can relate to your friend. I'm not sure she'd relate, but personally, I have a LOT of internalized anger. I just don't show it or talk about it because I worry that people won't understand it I guess. It's not just because I feel those things that I believe they're right. I don't wanna be defined by feelings yk? So I try my best to filter them and give people and the world the best of me. It's not as casual and easy as it seems and i sometimes have mental breakdowns due to suppressing it for too long. Again, not sure if it's the same for her but that's my experience. Therapy has been helping a lot too
@@cami_triz83 what you described is the exact feeling I get from this friend. Like she’s, too, suppressing her negative emotions. And sometimes, because she’s human too, she lets a tiny bit of anger or frustration slip and you’re left thinking “where did this come from?”. But she goes back to being “perfect” in zero time. What I’m getting from that is that even seemingly perfect and balanced people deal with their demons too, but they make a conscious effort to hide it.
My sister stopped talking to me because "sometimes" I'm rude. So all of my good qualities weren't enough reason for her to love me, and she used therapy talk on me. But she was downright mean to me (she's 8 years older than me btw) SOOO many times, and my response was to forgive and forget. "Throwing people away" just because they aren't perfect is becoming very common. I think it's okay to cut contact with toxic people, but expecting someone to be perfect at all times is actually toxic as well.
Throwing people away just because they aren’t perfect? Sounds like another item to add to our list of the after effects of social media and a globally interconnected world. I fucking hate moral high horsing. No one is perfect, we are all disgusting and weird and terrible in our own secret ways. All that matters is how a person handles negative feedback
How about not being rude? I hate people that can't put in the effort to not be rude. Being rude is a fucking choice. Only thinking about yourself when you say "My other qualities aren't enough for you to love even though I verbally abuse you?" What kinda thing is that? Do you not know your words hurt people? And we must forgive you cause why? "I'm not perfect!" Stfu with that nonsense. No one asking u to be perfect, we asking you to not be a dick. Its simple asf Your sister has every right to disown your ass. Maybe instead of playing victim look deeper into yourself and stop thinking only about yourself and more on the way you affect other people.
Happy to hear that you forgave her for all the times she made you mad. I also want to note that her not talking to you anymore is quite drastic for such a small reason as being rude sometimes. What I would do is take time to think back on if it just was being rude or could your actions be interpreted in a deeper, more hurtful, way. That said, it might not be all that deep. If that's the case then maybe she's going through something else and is having a hard time, which is why she's shutting down any signs of negativity. You might not be the problem, so try reaching out and making sure she's alright.
It all comes down to the point that whether the person is open to change their toxic behaviour, if they're aware, they could change themselves for the better.
“the purpose of video essays like this are to kickstart your thinking, not to complete it.” well said, Olivia. and i think it applies to any type of media or source of information-not just video essays-which people fail to remember.
I agree, as a society I think we need to love each other & stand up for marginalised voices more. This doesn’t mean standing up for bad people, it means showing bad people how to love & be good people.
Yeah , it's part of the reason why i am always a bit weirded out when i hear speaking of "consequences" within the accountability framework ... It always sounds like they are working in a punitive framework , And mind you this i have heard from white , asian , black , native , men and women , cis and trans alike ... And i am always a bit iffed by it : We have to agree that the modern justice system doesn't work , for mainly two reasons 1) punishment and cruelty don't work to prevent further harm , they are just bad things we do to bad pepole 2) since we can't allow bad things to happen to "good pepole" (white women , wealthy white men , and white men to some degree) Thqlaen loopholes exist for these categories to dodge these punishments , accountability and the loafty claim "the law is equal for all" suddenly disappear ... And that is the consequence of punitive justice ... It becomes more or less an excuse to police minoritized communities trough "consequences" , As a working class white man i am more likely to be stopped and treated violently by the police , then more likely to recive a sentence and a harsher one at that ... And if i have a criminal record then it's significantly harder to get a job and have romantic relations , build networks in general ... Like this is all significantly harsher for black working class men , but the idea is that yes working class men are effectively policed trouh punishment like this , so when someone talks about consequences , i feel like asking questions ... But here comes the second catch : 1) they where sane and knew about restorative justice : "Oh so you tought we black/natives are savage barbarians who just wanted to torture you ? Question your racism " this scolding doesn't look nor feel good and it gets hard to explain away to the other online 2) they are dangerous and talked about punitive justice : "Oh so you want fascists to get away with stuff scot free ? You're a bootlicker" And now i am still a fascist ... Like why engage in these conversations when a plausible consequence of each outcome is me being called a fascist for asking banal questions like "what do you mean by consequences" ? I just end up not engaging in these conversations because why bother ? I don't wanna get called names
@@davidegaruti2582 That was a VERY long way of saying what we all know: that cis straight white men are not allowed to engage in any conversations in leftist circles and - even more crucially - are not allowed to have valid class interests.
Sometimes i really wanna know how this world will be when mostly women politicians rules the world.If this is how u want problems to be solved,then we will be doomed
I think that there is a difference between simply loving someone and letting someone hurt you over and over again because you love them. You can love someone while letting them go and holding onto your self respect. There have been people in my life who I really did cherish and who will always have a special place in my heart, but that I had to distance myself from, simply because I could not agree with their current behaviour anymore and because I realized that it is not my responsibility to wait for them to grow. I agree that it is okay to love bad people, because we cannot control what our heart desires, but you still have to look out who gets to stay in your life and whose and what actions you support through your love.
This is the take. At some pint you have to realize that some people need help and therapy, but its no longer your burden to "fix" them. Its up to you to protect ur peace and and not be dragged down by people who aren't ready to help themselves.
yes! there’s loving and then there’s judging. we shouldn’t judge “bad people” because it doesn’t come from a place of love. compassion and respect come from love, and so do boundaries. we can love them, but we also need to respect ourselves when we get hurt.
The part about BPD hit really hard. I hate how this world can be so cut throat, you come across the wrong way, make one mistake, you get to be gatekept and shunned. It happened routinely to one of my exes who I believe had bpd. It broke my heart as I tried to be an exeption to that out of loving intentions l. The reality was that she would constantly sabotage her life and that out relationship never felt safe so could never go deeper. And to have to be another one of the people who eventually steps away from her, and for her to end being the “bad person” of the story has been devastating for me too. It s like you can’t win, sometimes even Love can’t win. Or stepping away was actually the most respectful or Loving thing to do? I have no peace for that. When I think of people being labeled as bad, I think of the nuances of her personality and in general of such experience. Thanks for the video!
I have an ex that also has BPD, so I resonate with this heavily. I cared a lot about him, and wanted to help him get better. Over time, his actions became more and more destructive to himself and to the people around him. It got to the point where I had to step away as well. In light of that experience though, I do believe that stepping away was the most loving thing to do. I think he is doing intense therapy now, is in a treatment center for his addiction issues, and I hope working to be a better person. While it is extremely hard, it is to the benefit of both of you.❤
I felt this so hard. I just broke up with my ex bf who was heavily believed to have BPD. I terribly miss him at times but the relationship was not okay as I did try to help him and did try to get him to reflect on his actions and gave him so many opportunities to get help or take accountability for his actions. He didn't really seem to want to get better or work on himself as a person until the very last second that I decided I was going to leave him because of his toxic behaviors and how he expected me to walk on eggshells around him all the time. He apparently is looking for me and wants to get back with me but as far as I know he still denies needing help or that he did wrong. It's just so difficult
My favorite thing is how this comment section is full of people not willing to admit they are probably bad people by someone else’s standards. Egotism is strong.
@@coolchameleon21 Morality isn’t subjective. It is also objective. Two things can be right at the same time. Example: Every human adult (who isn’t a pedfile) can agree that dating/ marrying/ and/or having sexual relationships with minors is bad therefore is not morally acceptable.
@@lilcomment yeah morality is objective if you purposely leave out the people who disagree? you cant choose a specific group of people who have a shared belief and then say that because they all agree it means that their belief is objectively correct.
@@stormwatch6992 Whether or not people disagree doesn't have any influence on the potential objectivity of morality. I think you and I would both agree that objectively, murdering an innocent person is immoral. There are some people out there who would disagree. That doesn't make morality subjective, that makes those people wrong. Morality can be objective truths in the same way there are objective truths of physics. I'm not sure whether I agree or not but there are plenty of philosophers who do.
This means so much. Ive been feeling like an awful person for being involved with extremely selfish and unempathetic people with horrible beliefs. I felt terrible about myself because no matter how awful they and their beliefs were, I struggled a lot to walk away because of everything I knew they were going through. I always made sure to hold them accountable and always voiced my disagreements, but the more I stayed the more my mental health declined, so I ended up finally walking away. As someone with very bad abandonment issues, that was an extremely conflicting experience. But this video feels like a hug
I feel you so much, I really love my friend because he's funny and he always includes me but he always makes fun of other people and he doesnt help much to our research. it is getting tiring to correct him and tell him that what he does is not good to others but he's very insesitive to other and he's sensitive when it comes to himself and his feelings only. It's tiring but i love him so much.
I might end our friendship after our research finishes, it will probably hurt me more than I ever have since I had a lot of my firsts with him and really just can't stand him anymore.
@@chiescentfleur hey I tried to reply sooner but UA-cam wouldn't post the comment. But basically I just wanted to say I'm sorry that you're going through that, and that I think letting go of that friendship is definitely valid, so don't let the way someone used to be dictate how they treat you or others right now. I've been much better since I finally accepted this, we deserve better! It's def not easy and it is gonna hurt to let go but see it as someone stabbing you in the back. It will hurt to remove the knife, but it's either removing it and allowing it to heal or keeping it there forever yk. I hope everything goes well, wish you the best
My problem is I have a terrible time voicing complaints to people I care about. My rule before ending a relationship or taking a step back is to fully vocalize everything I have a problem with, because if they don’t even know what they are doing wrong, then it’s my fault for not giving good feedback
@@happyrobot6396 Right, if you want relationships to last long tell them and confront them about the things that are bothering you, if they did adjust better if not, let them go. It's better to confront them rather than be passive about it.
ive loved bad people and ive been a bad person who has been loved, and how complicated that feeling is that nothing i write on a single youtube comment can explain it all, but to me love comes already with the "bad" things. I can only draw the line at violent crime tbh.
I’m not religious but I like how Christian’s approach love. Endless, indiscriminate, and unrelenting, the way christ loves you is how you should love others. Stuart Knechtle said that you will be judged by god how you in your life have judged others. I don’t know how this is related but I was just reminded of it
I'm no longer an active Christian but I keep remembering our priest telling us that the most important commandment of Jesus is to love one another and that's how He will know we are His children. The children od God will know how to love. It's not our job to judge bad people for that is reserved for God. Our only job is to love.
I appreciate this sentiment a lot and try to embody it but i cant help but think about how this logic of love is warped to excuse abusive people who have done no work on themselves and encouraging victims to engage with them as if nothing happened.
@@llynxfyremusic but at that point is that what love is? I’m sure that even the best virtues can be exhausted to validate an individuals poor or abusive character or conduct. I don’t think it’s Christianity pushing someone to excuse the abuser. After all Jesus died for all our sins so you should hold your life in greater regard. And the abuser should take responsibility and repent; the weight of your crimes can only be determined by you. I’m aware that people may not always have the privilege of stepping away from their abusers. But you should love yourself first, which means fighting for their own sake to attain some self respect. Maybe once you find love for yourself you can start to care, sacrifice, and forgive with grace, one day you may even forgive and love the abuser even if it is for your own sake.
@@perfctblu i dont think jesus himself had a warped view of love. I think people warp his view of love and pressure people who've been subjected to awful things to stay close to the people who've done said things, against their wishes. Especially in family settings. I'm not saying all people do it but its a repeated motif i've seen with victims in some Christian communities. I have loved somone once. It was a short relationship but i cared for him deeply. He had mental issues and found it hard to express his own emotions and was a bad communicator. I loved him and sacrificed to try to make the relationship work. He didn’t do the same. I understand why and i empathise with him. I over estimated how much i could help him. So i left and told him we could still be friends and i still wanted to be there for him. I told him i loved him but couldn't priotise him as a romantic partner as it was hurting me. I put in a lot of work. We were friends briefly until he apruptly cut me off. In spaces where we did communicate he started to insult me. Blamed me for his problems and tried to make me feel isolated from my friends. It went on for months. I was respectful until i snapped publicly and told him to leave me alone. I'm deeply angry with him. He repeatedly insisted i hated him and every time i said no. He's hurt me over and over again and i dont know if i hate him. What i do know is that i fiercely want him to be better. He's a very troubled person and it hurts me to see him that way. I wish he'd stop insisting he's a terrible person. I wish i could help him even though i know i can't. If i do love him its because i've seen him be good and it upsets me that he's so insistent that he cant change and thats why i'm angry. I'll still root for him to be good even if he's hurt me. I dont think i can forgive him until he does that. I dont know if i have a point here. I think some people dont get that love can still exist from a distance. Love doesn't always look like being a constant in soneone else's life. I dont know if my anecdote matches the love you talk about in your second paragraph. I think even distant love for a bad person can be unhealthy for a person if thats not a part of a person's natural healing process. I dont think its wrong to be that way. I'm very conflicted about my own experiences.
I think this debate is a classic example of conflating the map for the territory. “Love” is a word we’ve invented to describe how we feel, but words are not reality-they’re tools. I believe that we have to assess someone’s behavior on an individual basis (I love this way, you love that way). If love doesn’t have a concrete definition, it makes sense that some types of love cause pain while others don’t. In my opinion, a successful relationship is one where all parties act out their love in a similar or complimentary way.
right? take hannibal and will as an example. people always describe it as "obsession" and not love, but what is a definition of love that even the sanest can agree one? none. i think what matters is at the end of the day is that do you want to be with them, and do they want to be with you? and what will do you with that information can tell you if you have loved or what way u define love.
The thing for me is “feelings” are real. If you have love, it genuinely exists. It doesn’t have to be valid, its true despite all else because you feel it.
As someone with ADHD and memory issues due to trauma, I often forget birthdays and important dates, little things, and gifts from people but I still love my friends and believe I am deserving of love. I express my love through art and random "I love you" texts, and my friends understand that even if I miss their official anniversaries, every day is their anniversary with me. I think everyone is deserving of love, and believing in a uniform love is stupid because everyone loves differently, but we all love nonetheless
DUUUUde. im terrible about christmas. Im pretty sure i have not given a single christmas present in the past three years. Im college age. i feel like i should be giving my immediate family wrapped presents.
As someone with shit memory for no reason, and who also forgets birthdays and gifts: there is no excuse. Your ADHD and trauma induced memory loss are NOT excuses. You have a phone or computer, which has near infinite choices for automated calendar software to plug in all your important dates and receive reminders so that you don’t forget. There’s no excuse. I own it, I know that I’m not a very thoughtful person a lot of the time and tend to express my appreciation through different means rather than gifts.
@@happyrobot6396this person never excused their actions. They simply act the way they do. Their actions don’t define anything other then that. They love like everyone else does, and are loved like everyone else and should be deserving of it.
The therapy speak portion I think is the most relevant aspect, and it leads into a greater issue in society. People are hyperfixating on "becoming the best self" that we forgetting that part of becoming self-actualized is taking on a role that encourages growth in others. You can't care for others if it's an inconvenience for you - your needs are always more important than others needs. And eventually you become stunted, because how much can we really grow if we only allow ourselves that space in echo chambers that never challenge the path we've chosen? Sometimes, our obsession with self-growth comes at the cost of others. Sometimes that's a good thing, but it isn't right to act like your own comfort and desires should always trump the needs of others, particularly those we love.
once i loved this guy who most people would call "bad", i saw the potential of being a great person in him which convinced me to do my best for him. but while i was trying to heal him, i killed myself instead. loving someone is always so complicated but better prioritize ourselves first.
Red flags are super important to take into consideration when you don't come from stability and respect in relationships. You have to draw a line somewhere. I grew up watching women fall on their face and marry abusers. It's from spaces where people come from generations of trauma and abuse that a lot of the red flag "hysteria" comes from. It's more about developing an awareness of both the things that can go wrong, and the growth that can happen. You need to pick someone that can help themselves and will let you help them, and who will let you grow too. But it's super important that you can't accept love bombing, or fall for "potential" and future faking. Those terms do get overused. You can apply the language to anything less than perfect i.e. everyone. It's okay to see the shades of gray, but it's dangerous to fail to acknowledge that there are limits. And it is important to be able to know where your boundaries are. I think this type of conversation actually helps to make them clearer, but don't knock or invalidate the experiences of the women who have experienced those deeply toxic or abusive relationships. The language was born out of a need to extricate people from relationships that no one should ever experience, or to overcome childhoods of neglect and abuse. Healing bad childhoods doesn't happen all at once, lots of people go through prolonged periods of wanting to build up thicker walls and it's in the latter stages when they can start to be more lenient. It's why you see so many people in a panic warning others to put up those walls. A good enough childhood actually gives you a huge advantage and a type of superpower where you are more naturally able to discern the shades of gray and who really has your back. Other people really struggle and can even start to rile others up in the wrong direction. It's more that there are people out there dealing with very different battles.
It's like there's a need for people with good childhoods to go to therapy and figure out the ways that they had a leg up, even. They were protected, or respected on a daily basis, treated with sensitivity. It puts you at a huge advantage where you are more ready from the get go to let people off the hook for minor stuff. Other people are "hypervigilant" but the things they are running from are very real, not figments of their imagination or faults in their thinking.
Well, the asshole men win and the normal men don‘t. You have all the options and still pick bad. But hey, being good gets you used and abused because well, idk, fboy asshole is just better?
2:05 this is so on point you have to agree w your parents in public to be safe. also there are times when your own reality gets distorted especially when you are confused and finding yourself.
i think what’s made me categorize people i’ve loved in toxic relationships of the past as “bad” really just boils down to their unwillingness to embrace introspection and accept that they had done things that harmed me, as well as their unwillingness to adjust their behavior for me in general. basically, they didn’t seem to take my feelings about their behavior seriously and instead seemed to be deadset on getting something from me without having to go out of their way for me in terms of their behavior. there had been many MANY times in these relationships when i was asked to change my behavior for their sake, after empathizing with their perspective and emotional needs, and i put a lot of time and energy into that because i wanted to create harmony. what characterizes a “bad” person to love, in my opinion, is a lack of authentic vulnerability and eagerness to be influenced by the other. to be loved is to change with someone, not demand that the person change for you all of the time. both people will have to make sacrifices and adjustments on a deep level at some point for it to be healthy and balanced. when i called my exes bad people, i feel as though really i was saying they were bad partners. sure, their flaws are understandable from an outside perspective, and i can still love and appreciate them as a person apart from that if they have positive traits, but someone needs to be willing to change and suit the needs of their partner if necessary in order to be a good partner. there’s nothing wrong with loving the good traits of a bad person and hoping they change one day, but they have to be willing to change in the first place for that to happen, and them not wanting to change or accept responsibility for their behavior is what makes them a bad partner in the first place. this is the flaw that i think acts as an umbrella for all other flaws to fall under: if you aren’t self aware, or able to see yourself from a different perspective from your own biased view, or willing to work on those things then you won’t ever be a good partner. everyone is flawed. if you are self aware and willing to change, you can at least validate your partner/friend and put effort into the relationship. even if you don’t do it perfectly, the intention and level of honest effort really makes all the difference here i think
I have had an experience with someone with bpd. They were my closest friend. I loved them very dearly. I respect them as a person to this day, despite the abuse I have received and am still coping with to this very day. It's been 8-9 months since I last physically saw them - less than since they last messaged me or other people in my life. They utilised a lot of therapy speak to talk to me. They influenced another person who was my best friend to end things with me. I don't hate them. We had a lot of good times - but their mental illness, despite it all, won. I genuinely hope they are doing okay and in the same breath; I hope we never meet again.
Something about loving someone because you respect them seems to be missing something. Like respect can break down in a relationship, but the love can still be there.
I grew up with deeply religious parents who valued their faith above all else. Their devotion sometimes felt like a barrier to their love for me and my siblings, as they tried to frame their care as an act of devotion to God. Despite this, I felt their love, not because they were particularly caring, but because there were moments that transcended their strict adherence to religious duty. Unfortunately, their abuse, especially my father's violence, has left me struggling with daily life even now. My father's aggression ceased only when I became "a woman," though it still happens occasionally. My parents believe in corporal punishment for not praying, and I was sent to religious camps where I faced further abuse. As a 15-year-old Muslim girl, I wear the hijab because my parents force me to, despite being a closeted atheist. Every day in this house is a denial of my true self; I live in constant pretense. Sometimes, I feel that they love only the version of me that conforms to their beliefs, but they're still my parents, and I'm still their child. My mom cries in prayer for my guidance to faith, longing for us to be together in heaven. Even when they cause me pain, there are moments when my mother's embrace makes me feel safe, and laughter with my family fills me with love. However, I know that if they knew my true self, their reaction could be extreme-potentially even deadly, as honor killings are a reality in our culture. I dread the day I must reveal my true beliefs and desires, fearing the profound pain it would cause my mother, who would blame herself and see it as a divine punishment. Despite everything, I love my parents, and I know they love me. I can't bear the thought of causing them such anguish, so I fear the day I have to be honest with them. It feels like my choices are to wait for their death or consider ending my own life to avoid hurting them.
I'm so sorry you have to go through that and all I can say as a disabled Latin American atheist is that I feel like the left has really over corrected for what became and is becoming of the new atheists of the mid to late 2000s. (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.)
Once upon a time I had the same life as yours except that my parents have divorced and I lived with my step mum who is equally victim for the religious fanaticism of my father because devotion can never lead someone to be fanatic ,fanaticism is a spiritual narcissism in my opinion because you appoint yourself as a judge to people's morals and if you have delusions well God bless the victims so to make the story short in order to be my true self who was not atheist but very open and flexible intellectually I went out lived my life and now for economic reasons I'm back again things are much better because my father grew old and aging makes people vulnerable and less violent so we don't have that special great bond that usually one have with his parents but it's not bad any way I encourage you to go somewhere self and start your alone journey as soon as I are financially capable to provide for yourself its worth it
I usually have a high threshold for problematic people. I recognise their problematic traits, I recognise what led them to act that way, and I tend to accept them as they are. I do not let the more toxic parts get to me but instead gain insight into their unique perspective that perhaps a conventionally "good" person would not be able to give me. It would be much more interesting to me to have a candid conversation about the ugly side of their personality as a friend who is not being at the receiving end. It helps me first be able to recognise and avoid being negatively affected by it, and secondly, gives me empathy and the ability to connect to a wider range of people. These friends still have a place in my heart, even if I wish they would not have broken my trust and therefore having needed to distance myself.
I interpret love as the culmination of connection, commitment, and empathy. Even if one falters, the others can stand strong. That’s why it’s possible to love people you haven’t interacted with in ages or why it’s harder, but not impossible, to love someone who hurts others.
I think being able to love someone is a quality in oneself. However, being able to let go someone you love if they do harm you... even more of a quality.
I'm disabled and I honestly think you left out a very important part of it: The Halo Effect. Notice how barely anyone goes to bat or is willing to put in the effort for someone that's physically outside of the norm. Ask any disabled person, especially those with visible disabilities, whether or not they get that type of consideration by people? I can almost guarantee you it will be no. We have to always be perfect. We can't make mistakes. Whether we like it or not, the physical aspect does play a role. I can't tell you how many times I've made the same mistake as people and simply because I'm in a chair, I don't get a second chance.
I kinda agree with the lady near the end about how I pathologize certain behaviors to avoid criticism but in my defense I honestly doubt I was conscious of doing so when I did it.... Still, I appreciate the new perspectives most of all, thanks for the help!
I think the key is that love like all other emotions is irrational. But loving a truly bad person is by all accounts a failing. At some point you must outweight the cost of loving/ supporting someone. And when that comes at the cost of others you should not do so. There is a point where love becomes dangerous. It can be abused and twisted into something truly awfull. So loving a bad person is not by definiton bad. But enabling bad behaviour is. Can we seperate the two? Maybe, but probably not. So the abstract and the real differ greatly in this case. One has consequences to consider the other does not.
I'm sorry I'm slow but can you explain what you meant by the last four sentences about "can we seperate the two? Probably not" and "the abstract differs real"
@@natasha5553 Loving a bad person on paper isn't bad but in practice is usually bad because it leads to enabling bad behavior. Ideally you would love with enabling the bad behavior but that is easier said then done
@@natasha5553 what i meant is that in theory loving a bad person is not a problem, but in reality it turns out that often comes with enabling bad behaviour. If loving a bad person can be seperated from enabling their bad behaviour it could be a positive. But most of the time we end up getting used or abused by loving bad people. So while the idea of loving a bad person isn't a problem, the act of doing so usually ends up being a problem in reality.
are we all on the same page about the contrapoints video on twilight. she talked about just this, love or eros invades and takes over you without asking.
Love is just something we should cherish. If he/she hurts you, you tell them and if they won't admit it or make efforts, leave. Or just wait some time, question yourself and see if he/she comes back by admitting what they did wrong too (admit all your mistakes too, y'all are a couple, its a together principle hun)
AAAAAAH my opinion! restated online by a person! i feel so happy. yeah i agree with you, it's something we should hold dear to us, because isn't it just so awesome? us humans, who are so enamoured with our own interests, have the capacity to genuinely love others.
YES! The word that sums up everything you just said= patience. if everyone just follows this stupid advices online about how being toxic is pretty much any mistake that a partner would make, then there's no possibility of growing as a couple and understanding each other's limits... Patience is the most beautiful and important thing in a relationship, people that makes mistakes should have time to say sorry or to explain why they said/did something that hurts you, so then he can in the future have the opportunity to do it differently and learn your limits.
@@qlockwerk553 i'm so glad you share this opinion too :)! Of course! Love is the reason of why we keep living in a way. The people dear to us are always there to bring us up, what would we be without them? There's no need for a lot of people to love you. Sometimes just one love can make such a difference We just need so much love, and its the prettiest thing alive
@@marienneh1060 you're so right !! Patience really is the word and of course the key to anything in life and especially love. If you don't have the patience to communicate your toughts and feelings with your lover, then maybe you're not truely ready to be with someone. Without patience everything in the relationship would sum up as an hurricane ; both of the people would just fight over and over because they won't be able to just stop, question themselves, their reasons, try having an omniscient point of view. Sometimes a break is a great thing to do.
Because simply put, we are all capable of terrible things, and it’s important we understand why and how someone ends up doing such, and how we prevent that.
Basing love mostly on action is transactional, soulless. Like gifts, I rarely give them but they're always sentimental. I was kinda shitty in a recent relationship; trauma, baggage, and so on. Even months after the break-up, talking with the ex for a bit, they mentioned it with begrudging gratitude. it's the kinda thing only someone who really knows you would get, and not obvious.
Holy shit this opened my mind to alot of things I've never really thought of. Personal antidote: my father is a extremely bad relationship with my mother. So bad that I had to leave at 15 to live with my grandparents because his live for my mother caused him to excuse the horrible treatment he put on me. I always just looked at it like well he's terrible for loving her I don't under how he could love someone that is litterally draining the life from him but this video made me think of my dad. And how he still lived my mother even though she is objectively a horribly abusive person. Just I just think of how hard it must be to love someone like that. But now knowing this information makes me want to tell him its ok you love her. Its ok you still love her its not ok what she's done to you but I don't blame you anymore for loving someone you've been with for 19 years. I just got to say thank you so much like geuinely each video you make completely just changes my entire outlook on life.
"Love as an attitude" is so foreign to me lol. I can literally feel my affection and care for someone decrease the moment they do something that I couldn't morally conceive of doing. In my mind, there are certain actions that a person can only take if they fundamentally care for others very little, or if they fundamentally consider things like honesty to be unimportant. there is a difference between a good person making a mistake, and a person doing something that only a bad person could do.
I relate to that pretty hard. People's actions reflect in some combination their personalities and their circumstances. Maybe I'm just judgemental but yeah when people do something morally wrong I will feel less strongly towards them. I need to know the people I hold highly in my life are good people for them to keep that position in my mind.
Love is complicated and sometimes you're blinded by it . I was with a narcisistic guy we both were two miserable people who lied to each other . He's still my friend but I feel like I only try to motivate him to do better. I still love him but I try to move on. We're no longer even friends but I still wish him best.
All of your last points put into words what I've been thinking for a while. "Narcissism" and "toxic" have become so widely used, that colloquially it doesn't mean anything anymore. Clinically, it still holds value. But some random social media person using it? Devalues the word entirely.
I love this so much! You touch on such an overlooked subject when it comes to relationships that we attract and pursue even. Although I wouldn’t necessarily call them bad people or such. You gain something from it regardless of it being a positive or negative thing. I think of it as more of an incompatibility type of thing. You may connect with them on certain levels, and it shouldn’t be looked down on nor judge. It’s human to be able to connect regardless of differences. And it’s okay within your own personal boundaries within that relationship. I think the most important thing to really take away is being able to discern the difference between a healthy relationship versus an unhealthy one regardless if the person is good or bad.
I've always hated the saying "if he wanted to he would". It is such a blanket statement that downplays so many other factors that could be playing into a relationship and explaining someones actions. This video helped me articulate that so thanks
The psychoanalysis really resonated with me, I have gone through several therapists due to them offering sympathy and empathy, only for me to feel ashamed, as if they must be coddling me dishonestly. I’ve always felt my parents had done the same, I’ve even ended romantic relationships because people have been ‘too accepting’. I feel there’s no way they can truly be so kind in the face of my flaws, because it doesn’t line up with my own skewed sense of self. Great video, thank you for sharing!
@@miladeskandari7 no, you're right dude this is pretty annoying, I'm trying to see people's opinions on the video topic and I have to scroll and scroll because all I see is people glazing the uploader, like come on bruh ik you wanna show support but just talk about the video please 💀 I barely see anybody talking about the video
I have dated men who have acted immorally, as I define it. Similar to the example of Baby Reindeer, the traumatic pasts of these people were uncovered as I got to know them better. It was easy to use this as reason to stay in those relationships. It’s been healing to recognize that while I walked away from those relationships I can still hold love for them, albeit still with some resentment. I may not be “in love” anymore but I can always wish others the best- and this doesn’t say anything about my own morality. This conversation seems to tie into the debate on rehabilitation. It’s hard to accept it but even those who commit the most vile acts should be given an honest opportunity to change. Just… maybe not with the victim guiding it.
Great video and analysis. Your essays have been getting better and better, and this by far (imo) is the most well-executed. It really resonated with me, I think when it comes to love, we must always remember, just because you love someone doesn't always mean they should be in your life. Everyone is redeemable and has value but not everyone is open to changing for the better. It's up to you to decide if you can accept and emotionally handle being in relationships with those who are not actively recognizing their flaws and working on them. And even when people are willing to do the work, sometimes who they are in that moment is still too much for their loved ones to handle. And that's ok too. On good and bad: I think there are no good and bad people. Only those acting out of fear and ignorance. Lacking empathy and compassion is a kind of emotional ignorance. And lashing out is a self-defense brought on by self-love. Everything stems from love, even hate. Which means that too can be redeemed.
Dang this video absolutely hit home. In our crazy world I feel love is becoming harder and harder to find. This helps me feel like I have power in cultivating the kind of love I wish to see. Thank you Olivia
I think that there are many interesting alternative routes in this discussion when we look at "bad person" less as an ontological category that attaches itself to people ranging from morally questionable to reprehensible, the way we often use the term in everyday conversation (I'm not sure that there is a such thing as a "bad person," in this sense), and instead look at being a "bad person" through an Aristotelian lens (being a bad person is person-ing poorly). When being treated for OCD, one of the first really big hurdles was accepting the negative consequences my obsessions, compulsions, and other behaviors associated with OCD for those besides myself. When living with any kind of mental health condition, it can be difficult to look past how intense experiences seem: the anxiety, depression, or otherwise overwhelming sensations that seem to attack the self so directly that they leave very little room for considering anyone else. It was, and often still is, difficult to not wallow in guilt about it, because accepting that meant also accepting that a consequence of my disorder, the dysregulation it introduced into my life, was that it made me bad at person-ing toward other people. I had been, and still have the potential to be, a bad person. Taking my treatment seriously also meant wanting to be a better person toward other people. Not that not wanting to kiss someone makes you a bad person, but the example you brought up in the video of your friend with OCD (which I strongly empathize with - I've experienced it myself) is just one small example of how mental illness can often be a refusal to live in the same moment as other people, distorted perceptions and preoccupations creating a kind of barrier that impacts the ways we can show and receive love, sometimes past the point of recognizability as love. I think the thing about the debate between love-as-attitude and love-as-action is that love, whether it's rooted in biology or social construction, is a social emotion, like shame. There is no love without something TO love. It seems to me as though loving something also requires accepting certain obligations toward that thing, which is why we cannot love as many people or things as there are that deserve to be loved. I don't think it's impossible to love bad people by accepting these responsibilities toward them, but those responsibilities may include difficult decisions about confronting their improper person-ing, and when mutual contact is inadvisable. I think one obligation of love is that we want the other person to achieve the best version of themselves, and that means some degree of person-ing correctly. I cannot love you if I don't have real investment in you being a good person. I think that loving bad people becomes morally questionable when we lose that investment, no longer care about their proper person-ing, or do not behave in the right ways in our relationship to promote that end. It's a big ask, and it's difficult to figure out what that proper orientation looks like, but that's why morality, and love, matter. If it were as easy as affection or care, it wouldn't be nearly as valuable.
I completely agree with Olivia, love is cultivated, in fact the nurturing itself is love. Like The Doctor said, love isn't an emotion, it's a promise, it's a duty of care. Personally, I think there's a spectrum between these two extremes of attitude and action and I'm somewhat in the middle.
Both are spectrums and you need a minimum of both to love healthily imo. Like, I totally and entirely relate to the "love as an attitude" moto, it's exactly how I see humans in general, I love and respect every single person just for the sake of existing, and I can still love someone while condemning their action. But it's not everything to build a relationship.
The pop culture clips from shows in the background actually really helps me feel and resonate with the relationship and identity dynamics you’re talking about
Me personally, I think love is defined by behavior. For example, a physical abuser beats their spouse, thats the abuser loving their spouse wrong (I believe there are right and wrong ways to love someone). If I learned the abuser was themselves abused as a child, that merely explains their behavior - and that's it. For further example, the TV show you mentioned (I never watched it): just because the main character has trauma, doesn't really change the morality of any bad thing that character does unto other people in the show. To put it simply: I don't care WHY people behave the way they do. I only care about what they do.
interesting view! ive thought about this and gone back and forth with whether i agree. do you think you can allow some space for forgiveness then? since you understand that it was all cause and consequence?
The problem with this line of thinking is that it at the wrong times fails to forgive, and forgives at the wrong times. Behavior outside of context means nothing. Consistent behavior and refusal to change, of course, however, becomes the context. Moreover, some behaviors we might see as reprehensible (see: other cultures) might actually make perfect moral sense to the person and in their context of which you might be unaware. Also, your own moral filter could be off. Also, things you may find good can become bad in a greater context. Take revolutionaries: their actions are violent, yes, but (sometimes) sensible within a greater context. Their behavior seems reprehensible to a lay public, but the lay understanding is more likely than not wrong or otherwise skewed. Lay people themselves engage in all kinds of behaviors which they think are good but are indeed harmful at greater scales.
I agree with the view to a certain extent but, even if their circumstances or past experiences don't justify their behavior , as a person who loves them , you do start to understand those reasons and then isn't it then tougher to blame the person for the actions rather their circumstances and experiences
This video was really great in capturing an emotion and experience that I've had so much trouble explaining to others. It's hard to love someone that hates themselves and projects all of that on to you. Despite being loving, kind and understanding back to them it only makes them feel even worse because they feel like they don't actually deserve any of it. It's heartbreaking because you know how they really feel and how they really want to express how much they love you but can't because of the shame and guilt they feel from receiving the love you give them. It's really such a heartbreaking experience to go through, as it seems like there's nothing in your power that you can do for them until it becomes too much for yourself. It especially sucks because I now feel like I'm that person and act out in ways to push my loved ones away because I don't think I deserve care/love...
It's incredible how much dedication and thoughtfulness has gone into making this video. The way you structure it, leading us to understand only by the end, makes every piece and every idea important. Not to mention the work it takes to get the clips together
I was actually scared of this, and watching it is interesting. What you said at the end definitely made me reflect about my view on my ex. In which I just couldnt understand what about it didnt work or rather, why it couldnt work. When I broke up I viewed her as a whole person and understood it wasnt going to work with me. I was exhausted and tired and i loved her. But holding onto that love became too much work that I couldnt hold onto. After the breakup, my mind couldnt stop thinking about why she was the way she was, and what I could have done differently. Hell I still am doing this. When I came across BPD it felt like a relief seeing people have similar symptoms and at first I was convinced this was what it was. But the more I read, the more I realised that wasnt the case, the breakup was amicable and she wanted to make sure I was happy because i was so tired. I dont think thats bpd. And yet I just couldnt understand why she continued to apply pressure on me. It made me reflect about what I couldve done better, but appreciate that I just couldnt have known in the moment what the best option was. I tried my best to do the best options. And I can confidently say during our times of disagreement it was hard to work with her to come to a conclusion we were both happy with. She wanted whats best for me, and she said that post breakup. And thast something I overlooked. I dont know if its true or not, but she said it, so I have to believe there's a truth behind it. Its sad how real this video is for me, I loved her because ultimately she was someone with a worse past than me, she has done wrong and she's trying to be better in her own way. And I wanted to support that. But being with a person like that as a partner is tough, too tough. You realize they have a lot to learn, and maybe being with you wasnt a good idea, because you're offsetting what they have done. "you are so perfect" was the phrase I was so anxious hearing, because i know im not. Im me, and im just trying to be better than yesterday however that looks like that for me. And she's her own person. I never tried to belittle her, but i wasnt able to support her with what she was doing aswell. I remember right before the breakup i was watching a video and even though I think i took the message the wrong way, it made me see a bit of clarity in myself. I have tried EVERYTHING I know I can to make this work, to the point of not being able to take care of myself because I was continuously stressed over how things will turn out. She tried in her own way, but it really wasnt enough to convince me at the time. I just wasnt comfortable or happy and I was just always worried about stepping on a eggshell that will explode, or constantly saying I will do loads for her. It was none stop added pressure that I couldnt take. And I think someone will be able to handle that better, but I cant. And thats ok. That was when I understood i cant continue making this work, because it just wasnt happening. I think something I really need to learn is to take my happiness seriously. Im so use to putting aside for others Its natural. And I think thats why I dont regret the breakup, i regret the relationship. But it me taking a chance to learn my happiness is important and I cant keep putting it aside until it becomes drastic.
love that you brought up bpd from a lived experience perspective. i have bpd (among other things) and this and my "badness" or evilness and others peoples goodness is something i think about alllll the time like it's actually heavy and almost obsessive (i have struggled with moral scrupulocity ocd). this video was so interesting, thank you
I struggle with moral scrupulosity ocd as well and it’s hell. I’m always just scared to even watch videos like this because I’m afraid it’ll trigger a flare up. Stay strong lovie, OCD is a lil bitch and morals are subjective
Honestly this is a very thought provoking subject, I never really took the time to think about what love really means to me personally. In a way, I believe everyone is bad, we’re human and we aren’t perfect and never will be, and I think it’s even better to love someone for their imperfections rather than their perfections. So maybe (for me at least) love is more of an attitude you can have about another individual. Though, I do have a more pessimistic view on humanity and hatred seems to be more and more rampant, love can only be temporary, more of a feeling or a mood rather than a lasting attitude towards a person. Apart from all that, I love the philosophical conversations on this channel, new sub here
I genuinely needed this so thank you. I recently had a friend who I was starting to get serious with and almost moved into a relationship. Just before we took the next step She confided that she was currently getting kicked out of her house because she had pressured her roommates into a 3 way that was not completely consensual. it was a really scary and important detail that brought me to realize how pushy she had been in our interactions and I seriously had to consider what a future relationship of any kind would look with her. At the same time I kind of went on a spiral of a debate with myself over both what I owed to her and what I owed to myself. For context she is trans and has been homeless before and I know that she is at a high risk of returning to homelessness and self harm as shes losing her home and major pieces of her support system. I ended up deciding to honor the commitment I had originally made of friendship and support her how I could and became a pillar for her to lean on during that time. We had multiple long talks about how her pushyness comes from insecurity and self destructive behavior and I genuinely held hope that she would change for the better. Unfortunately after a month she started going straight back to dating with a 12 hour date and has not slowed down despite me gently reminding her she had said she needed to stop and work to herself. This really hurt and I do think changed the way I view her even if I still do love her we've started to grow apart and while I still am friendly and open to her as I do hold love for her and do believe everyone can change we won't really ever been in the same place. And during this whole situation I had a very sinking feeling in my gut that like I was a bad person because I chose to stick by someone who committed SA and that I never told our mutual friends (mostly because I feel like its not my story to share) and part of me feels like by continuing to be friends with her I give her like a sense of legitimacy that what she did wasn't that bad and that I could be enabling her to continue. All of this is just to say that I think something I kind of realized while listening just now is that in a way I was seeing myself from the outside as someone whos morally bankrupt for continuing to love someone who did bad things but Idk maybe I shouldn't go too hard on myself for supporting someone who needed it.
I've loved a bad person. I find it hard to categorise who is "a bad person" per se, because the way I see it, it's the actions caused by certain factors that are bad. I tend to stray from stigmatizing a person as "bad". I would use a number of different, more precise words in order to avoid generalisation. We can have a bad person who tortures a kitten for pleasure, commits mass genocide and we can have a bad person who beats a partner after consuming too much alcohol. I can't say much in the case of a war criminal or kitten abuser, because I've never had a relationship with that person. The idea of such person repells me horribly, however in the back of my mind, I still have the thought of how badly that person must have been hurt in order to channel their emotions and needs into such cruelness. But, before I move on to the third position I mentioned, I feel I must say a few words back regarding what I mentioned as trouble with categorising. Bad actions. I've seen a lot of those from my mother, often she hurt me deeply and still does. But I find it hard to categorise her as a bad person. However, now smoothly moving on the other mentioned person, I was really close with my mother's former boyfriend, who overtime I started to consider bad. Maybe it's easier for me to name him a bad person rather than my mom, because he's not around anymore. I can't tell. They were/ are still both abusers in their own way. But he was an alcoholic, abusive to me and my mom both mentally and to her also physically. He hurt me. A lot. But I still loved him. Some part of me still painfully does. He was a father figure, and for him I genuinely was someone he loved. I felt loved, in a twisted way. It was very confusing to me, because especially over time, as he became just a part of my history and no longer an active participant, I couldn't bring myself to hate him. Even through so much harm, I saw more and more through ny memories of how much struggle was within him. How tough it was on HIM, to realise he was indeed a bad person. The guilt. How that brought him to drink even more and spiral even further. How he couldn't be at peace with his past experiences and present emotions. It tore him, and everyone else around in the process. But he was worthy of love, not "deserving", but to who noticed his need, he was worthy. Not all of his parts were bad, that's why even now I have mixed feelings about the categorisation. But the amount of harm he caused surpassed a certain point. He was torn, between good, bad and the beyond. And that's what I think is the key to debating whether bad people can be loved. Becuase are they just bad, or are they evil? I think only one of those can achieve being loved and loving. We all have a bad side to ourselves, even more so depending on our morals and life philosophy. It would be hard to restrain from love, a human need, if we couldn't also love the bad.
In essence I believe the best way to view this is by focusing your energy to those who are good to you. They can be bad to everyone else, but whats most important is that they are good to you. Now it is up to you whetheror not you like who this person is to the rest of the world.
"We accept the love we think we deserve" from Perks of Being a Wallflower is what I always think of and it still rings true. In the book it was told to the main character when he couldn't understand why his sister was defending her physically abusive boyfriend. When I had low self esteem, I would let people into my life who showed time and time again that even if they loved me, they still weren't going to treat me the way I deserve to be. Now, I know I deserve better, and I get better.
I have two uncles who are both addicts and have been arrested many times for stealing etc. I love them and want them to get better, which doesnt mean I condome their actions
21:14 THISSS I've had so many people judge me for not wanting to kiss my boyfriend 😭 I have ocd so that and holding hands is still something I'm working towards being comfortable with.
dude u really helped me understand some issues with love ive experienced. "mommy & daddy issues" ive never resonated with those labels but when you broke down how we project those onto our partner. holy sht. man im grateful to be single rn like im lonely ash and want to love somebody but i could use the extra stored love for me, too.
Ooooh, video could not come soon enough for me. I'm processing my recent break-up right now (about a week after this video was posted), and I'm doing so without harboring and cultivating resentment for her, as well as doing some self-work while at it. It's a-friggin'-lot. We were beautiful in paper. Looked so amazing together. We were practically the same person but had opposite traits where it mattered. I was the shy, soft-spoken guy (color-coded blue because I like colors. I'm so-so with blue), and she was the red-haired (legit, her hair was dyed red when I met her), outspoken girl. Courting her was absolutely difficult--we started as friends, and I even saw her almost date a "bad guy" during that time--it was a lot of work, and there were tons of push and pull, but it happened. We ended up dating each other and it was glorious. Until it wasn't. I was so exhausted being with her and I'm still, to this day, piecing together the words as to why. In part, it's because I still had a few relationship insecurities to get over, and yet I was so willing to learn that while I was with her. But alas, that space was not afforded to me with her. Part of that courting phase was me giving up some of my boundaries just for her. Keeping her on a pedestal for as long as I possibly can. It was exhausting. The difficult part of this was that she isn't entirely a "bad" person. Not by the definition set on this video. But I felt echoes of "bad" through her. Her past relationship making her overthink. Her absolute need to prioritize her self-care, leaving me in the dust. At some points it felt like she loved dating herself more than dating me, and I bought into it because of "therapy speak"--she always sounded so smart when she justified her actions. I couldn't hold her accountable because I didn't have the words she had. Because she's supposed to be up on that pedestal, right? Not that I was any good, either. Again, I had an unwritten agreement to be her "forever simp" somewhere down the line. It's an old pattern I have and I expressed to her early on that I wanted to move away from it. And yet she loved having it. It just drained me. Sometimes it felt like I was doing absolutely everything in my capacity just to keep up with her. For her, it was average effort. It might not be that clear-cut in short words, and I don't want to sprinkle anymore assumption. But there WAS a reason why I felt so drained being with her at the end of the day. There WAS a reason why I left. I did, and now I want to perpetuate the push-and-pull again due to nostalgia. I'm mourning a friend that I lost. Someone I thought was someone I could love, but alas. This video helped put the words "therapy speak" in my vocab. Still am struggling with defining her as a "bad" person. Part of the reason why I loved her was that she chose to heal from her past experiences. I wanted to help, too. But there was going to be an imbalance there, with how we both went about it.
i think these ideas of love are not always mutually-exclusive my opinion on the matter is that love is purely emotional, you just feel it, and you cant exactly control how and when. therefore the question of "is it ok to love bad people?" would be the wrong question, considering there is no "wrong way" of feeling if you feel it, its there. doesnt justify anything that you do or dont do, its just there.
Love is real. Having feelings/attitude of love do not need to be followed by anything else. No amount of action will make someone love you, it may influence or reinforce. Combining actions with mutual love creates a healthy relationship dynamic that *cultivates* it forward for as long as you live. If you recognize the value in stepping away from “bad” people Its okay to love “bad” people. “Love” isn’t hurting you or anyone else. The feelings you have for them are real and exist. Attempting to shame yourself for being human will only tear you apart. Love them like you would anyone else and wish them well!
I feel like it’s ok to love flawed people. We all are. But if you date them with the expectation that they will change, you shouldn’t. NO ONE can make another person change, ONLY themselves. You can help them, but you CAN’T make them. So if you love them, ask yourself, would you still love them EVEN with the flaw?
this was so interesting and nuanced it made me think of “love” in so many ways id never thought of before, im at a moment in my life where ive decided to go full on hermit mode for a MINUTE to reaally try n sense n learn who it is that i am n who i wanna be/what i want my values to be/how i wanna relate to others. i constantly think of myself as “good” or doing whats best for me, but in that (n also this vid) ive realized ive hurt others or i rather i have withdrawn my “love” from others in order to do so. i feel like love is never a win/win, theres always some loss. in loving the ppl i used to i felt i lost my sense of self n became enmeshed w them, n in now kind of like collecting all my “love” towards modtly myself, i feel like ive lost a web of social support. either way, i feel like love involves someone getting hurt or a “bad act” as you say… but also mayb thats just my biased persoective bc i grew up as the scapegoat in a narcissistic family system dynamic so love/acceptance/being seen for me always equaled shame/guilt/pain. what i have been finding in my solitude tho is that i value respect first n foremost, n also that what u give is what u get. so ive been trying to be respectful to others n also have no expectations of others, thats another thing. possessive love is full of expectations and conditions, i used to be all up in that n it only brought me disappointment n resentment n just bad vibes w ppl. idk, i feel happy in my aloneness bc i feel like not only am i building the boundaries of who i truly am by preserving my own self love, but in doing that it has been the easiest to be loving n respectful to others, its like fill your own cup, n then keep filling it bc itll overflow n spill to others in terms of loving good/bad ppl, ig i see it like everyone deserves respect from the getgo, but if someone is disrespectful to your own boundaries, you have a right to return that energy or withdraw love from them for your own safety, at least thats my pov rn. as i said, i went no contact w my narc family n my last ex was very manipulative too so for me not loving bad people has been life SAVING in being able to change myself such that i would no longer stay/participate in those kind of relationships. but also nobodys perfect, and we all make mistakes…ig its all w nuance, you get to decide where the line is drawn between a couple of mistakes n then an abusive pattern, n its fair we all try to respect where each of us draws that line
i like the examples of being friends with bad people. i think the attitude that we should remove ourselves from people who we disagree with or are bad for some reason is unhelpful for everyone, it is like the personal life parallel to large scale media deplatforming. i am not just concerned about romantic relationships, but i feel that judging which relationships we should maintain based on an ethical standpoint is the same kind of dehumanization that tinder or social market value offers us today. you dont have a reaponsibility to remain friends or in love with a bad person, but why do so many people feel that it is problematic to see a human being instead of someones bad actions, and continue to care for them? its frustrating to me.
A person is not just who they are but what they do to other people. Some actions are too cruel to forgive. Is it "kind" to love a monster more than the monster's victims?
"why do so many people feel that it is problematic to see a human being instead of someones bad actions" I don't really see the distinction. What is a person except the accumulation of their actions? Now, defining someone by only a small subset of their actions is problematic, but sometimes that small subset of actions can overshadow everything else they've done. If I have a friend who tells great jokes and laughs at mine, supports me when I need it and trusts me to do the same, celebrates their victories and mine with equal vigour, I will see them as the sum of all those small actions. But if one day I learn that they raped someone, all those small actions will be buried, and I wouldn't be able to see them as anything but a rapist. On the flip side, if their 'bad' action wasn't rape, but something minor, like they stole candy at the cinema or told some off colour jokes, I wouldn't lose sight of the whole person, I would see them as still a largely good person that could hopefully grow past those misdeeds. But overall, there are just some bad actions that will utterly alter the image we have of people. And while we might still be able to care for them, it makes it impossible to support them without becoming a worse person ourselves.
@@Serocco Does love have to be kind? Either way, I think anyone and everyone is free to love who they want. I've been thinking on it, and to really see how firm I am in this, I thought, what kind of person would I despise the most? And I settled on the easy one, a child predator to work out my scenario of someone being in love with such a person. And at the end of the day, I decided that love isn't always gentle, if you choose to allow yourself to love such a person, be prepared for the hurt. If you self is a good person, may this be the only consequence that you face, theoretically. Of doing what is right, even if it's not working in the favor of the one that you love. I don't love people, I love my morals and principles and myself and therefore those who I wish. Or something. A song that I thought of while thinking about this ever since I saw Olivia post about this prompt a few months ago was Love is Everywhere, by Lasah. Love is just is, it isn't a good or a bad thing, not in this imperfect world, we're just encouraged to pursue a happy, healthy love, though. Do you get what I'm saying? Because I don't :(
@@sebrussell Your entire comment is fantastic and brings the proper nuance to this conversation. It is all about balancing what you find to be good and bad, and knowing that certain bad things greatly outweigh any good. We can support others and want to see them grow, but some people will drag you down and never actually want to grow. It can be impossible to support some people, and we should not be expected to out of "kindness" when it will have a negative impact on ourselves.
Because we have to care for ourselves too, people who continuously do bad things can fuck with your psyche. It's okay if they have bad qualities, we all do, but someone who's okay with hurting others is enough for me to disengage. I've been around people who I'd consider "bad", who fuck me over as much as they did with people. My brother was one of those people, everyone looked out for him, and he thanked you back by stealing your money or property. For years I've tried to excuse his actions, but the writings on the wall were very apparent from the jump. Whenever you doubt his intentions, he finds a way to exploit it. As for Ethical reasons, I don't think it's dehumanizing. For me, when you do something wrong that fucks someone over, it doesn't sit right with my soul. All in all, it depends, because sometimes shit happens and people will do things they wouldn't normally would. I feel like if I stayed with someone who has done the most vile shit, it doesn't matter if I condemned them for it, I'm still there with them. Others and the friend might feel as if the action wasn't so bad for me since I'm still there with them.
To go off from the line when you said the “5 red flags” it reminded me of when I was talking with close friends about how when looking for a relationship either it be intimate or friendship that you shouldn’t have expectations like list or things if the sort, we mentioned that it’s better to have standards and self respect because sometimes sure some people are bad but sometimes we don’t know what’s the history and then it’s really just trying to be open around all the sensitivity of the topic
Like a lot of things, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. What people do for each other, and are willing to do for each other, is loving them. But at the same time, everyone does have inherent value, even people who’ve done terrible things deserve love. I’m still not 100% on what I believe, but what I believe right now at the very least is this: There are many different kinds of love. It takes different forms for different people, and different forms when it comes to animals as well. Love can take the shape of hoping someone will be okay even though you don’t know them. You can love someone based on the value that yes, they are a person, and every person deserves love. At the same time though, that kind of love is much more disconnected. That doesn’t mean it’s meaningless though. When you see everyone through the lens of love, through the idea that everyone deserves it, it makes you appreciate others so much more. It helps to make you a kinder, more generous person, and makes it easier to trust others. Of course it’s possible that a viewpoint like that could be harmful in some way, you might trust someone that you otherwise wouldn’t have. But in my opinion, I would rather get hurt because I loved too much, than not love enough. When it comes to the other viewpoint, loving someone for more personal reasons, like their actions or beliefs, is just as important. In the context of someone you’re close to, loving them takes a form closer to knowing them. Knowing them as in, really, knowing them. You know who they are, what’s important to them, their likes and dislikes, what they believe in. You’re choosing to love this person because of the person they are, rather than because they ARE a person in the first place. Their actions and beliefs changed your relationship from: “I love you because you are human” to: “I love you because you are important to me. I love you because of the deep relationship we have” Both forms of love are important for different reasons. Honestly they are both so valid and important that it would make more sense if they both had their own word assigned to them. The definition of loving someone is confusing cuz the word “Love” is so broad. However, in some way, love is a choice in both definitions. You CHOOSE to love everyone. You CHOOSE to love those close to you. The choice to love is where the meaning really comes from. If you wholeheartedly believe that everyone deserves love, then the love you have for everyone is real. Just saying that you love everyone but not actually committing to feeling love for everyone, makes that form of love superficial, or even manipulative. You have to choose everyday to love those close to you, just like you choose to love everyone. Your relationship with strangers and your relationship with those close to you are very very different, but in both scenarios, the love you feel is very real, and very valid. So yes, it is okay to love bad people, as long as you’re choosing to love them in a way that is, well, rational. Say there’s a friend that you love deeply. One day, they commit a murder. If you choose to continue loving that friend because of your relation to them, because of the person inside them that you know and care about, then I’d say that’s completely rational. That doesn’t mean you think what they did is okay, it just means that you really do love them, you love them so much that you’re willing to move on from something horrible they did. Of course, if you continue to love them because you like that they murdered someone, then that would be, well it would be bad. Controversial opinion: murder, is bad. On the other side of things, if you choose to love a murderer that you don’t have any connection to, then for that to be a rational kind of love, you would be loving them simply because of your belief that everyone deserves love, despite the awful things they may have done. This was another amazing video, thank you Olivia! Remember to tell your friends that you love them.
Love truly is complicated. My first love outed me and made me feel very ostracised, very sad and upset for years. But now she's one of my greatest friends, and even in the years that I've resented her, I've loved her dearly. She mightve been a bad person in my mind, but she wasn't that in my heart.
To love is to hold our loved ones accountable. Love isn't something that is good or bad, I think. It never can be, it just is. Your actions is something else though. Love doesn't mean to give up your principles and morals though.
what is considered a "bad" person is "good" to the others, the world is not black and white, otherwise, you would find the entire zoo of carnivore mammals in jail among the bulls and horses that didn't "behave"
To agree with the respone above, I love multiple "bad people" in my life. I love them for the good aspects the make up, for the care they have given to me, and for the pain they suffered and then unfortunately passed to others. My love for them come with the hope they see the evil in their actions, the sources they came from, and how to be better people. No one deserves to be abandoned from love because of one bad action, quite often its in love they are given the opportunity to change.
@@collin6885 To me, it isn't about whether or not they deserve it, it's simply, I love you. That is all. When I think of a bad person, in this prompt I think of a type of person I'd hold great contempt for, and I settled for a child predator to see if I could maintain my thoughts as strongly as I do even for someone I consider a monster. And when it comes down to it's not a matter of whether or not they deserve it, the answer is yes. There is no morals tied down inherently with emotions, which is why I don't mind, to put it simply. Let's take for example the mothers that love their sons, their babies, even if they'd done the most evilest of shit known to man kind. I wouldn't hold contempt towards them for loving these predators, murderers, evil-doers, but what they do with this love? Destroying evidence, invalidating the victims, etc, that's wrong. That's disgusting. But you aren't bad simply for the act of loving another. Maybe you can not compare parental love to romantic affections for these types of people, but I'm sure you guys can get what I mean.
@@adamas5925 i haven't watched the video yet but this is so weird cuz i just saw you under the comment section of a sad boyz episode. sorry this is so random 😭 also i really agree with your take
This is a dangerously great topic! Its deep and dark yet truthful and insightful on the reality of love , connection and family. Thank you again for putting this up together and for making incredible points and details ! Love this one you go girl 💗😊
I feel that love is alot more intense and complicated than just intense respect. The quote you had there about 'love being the realisation that something other than oneself is real', really resonated. If you've ever been deeply deeply in love with someone, you will know that it's not just a feeling, it's like a whole shift in your reality. A whole experience. Here i'm talking about romantic love, which I know isn't something that everyone experiences. The romantic love that I personally have experienced is so so different to the love that I have for freinds and family, or that which people describe having for family or pets or freinds. It almost blinds you in a way to completely outweigh a persons flaws because you have such an intense appreciation, or love, for this person. You see all of their traits (positives and negatives) as just part of them. It really is the realisation that you are not the only thing who is real. Everything else in our world becomes so clear and just easier to appreciate, even once it ends. This is my experience with being in love, of course not everyone will experience everything the same (I'm neurotypical and a lesbian so obviously my experience isn't universal) but this is what I think of when someone is talking about "love".
Yesss I love the quote about the evil parts of other people - i feel comfortable around my partner in a way I’ve never felt around other people because we both easily express emotions like anger and resentment and “bad” and “evil” thoughts and feelings in general and it makes me feel so comforted and safe because I know whatever horrible things I say like ranting about people for example, he still sees me as a whole person. It’s hard to give examples to this though….I want to emphasize we don’t bully each other or anything, and we don’t spend our whole time ranting and complaining, just that when we do, it’s a fun time that ends in laughter and comfort.
I want to share a story, about two friends of mine. I had a friend, a trans man that was deply feminist and very intense. And I have a friend, a transphobic and antisemitistic guy who idealized Soviet Union, totally oposite guys, am I right? Well, once in facebook I found that the second guy tag the first guy and they were... hanging out like buddies. I was aboslutelly surprised about that fact and I even ask them "Hey, so you are totally ok with the way the other is, right?" What I hear in response is dificult to sumarized, but in a nutshell: They meet eachother in a music shop, the second guy even confess to him once but becuase he was passing through a difficult time on his life. In responde, they just keep going, they talked with property, chared ideas and experiences, discoveries and debate... and they are doing well. I was surprised but I´m also happy. Those guys literally bring my hope for humanity back.
this is a clear example of how you can go on philosophical tangents until crafting a seemingly fair argument, but when just think about it with common sense it doesn't make any sense, aka false premises
Go to ground.news/olisunvia for a more open-minded and critical approach to the news you consume. Subscribe though my link for 40% off unlimited access or try it for less than $1 this month.
I saw a study once that said people are attracted to people who have qualities that they admire and want for themselves. And the opposite is true as well. That people extremely dislike people who have the same flaws as they do. I'm sure it's obviously not true 100% of the time. Since none of us like people who harm children and we obviously aren't child abusers ourselves. But I think it holds true most of the time. Narcissists hate other narcissists. People who are people pleasers don't like other people who are people pleasers. People who are selfish despise other selfish people. Etc.
Lost me at feminism...If only Western bunch were not so caught up in this "progressive" (or degenerative) nonsense we would not be having many of such issues today or would be tackling actual issues.
Absolutely not. I don’t know how you both came to that conclusion. Love is supposed to be shared to those who are deserving of it.
I’m extremely disappointed in your blatant hypocrisy due to your previous videos Oli.
wonderful video
“The purpose of video essays is to kickstart your thinking, not complete it”
Bars fr.
your therapist when your card declines:
Real
LMFAO
I am deeeead
Try again
Sht really crushed my soul
Wanting the best for someone and trying to help them get better is never wrong.
Letting someone get away with doing bad things with no accountability and continuing to support them as if nothing happened because you "love" them is just you allowing them to hurt you and/or other people and that is wrong.
you can make them take accountability and still love them. that's the point
But isnt hurting each other and getting hurt a part of the of any person's "trying to get better" process
@@vibhorkumar9680 no, no its not.
@@mcm3061no, you don't have to "love" them
@@vibhorkumar9680 what do you mean by this?
wake up babe olivia came back from europe vacay and dropped a new video
wahooo
@@suchislife801 did you watch the video? you sound like an incel right now
@@suchislife801 what kind of bait
@@suchislife801 shit was so cringe you got posted on her story 💀
@@suchislife801bro whattt😭😭
One traditional aspect of relationships I fear we are losing in the modern world is loyalty for the purpose of growth. “Red flag” dating culture encourages identifying traits that are negative as soon as possible in a potential partner, and usually conflates those traits as impossible to overcome. That does not allow either member of the relationship to grow.
Excited to listen to this one later today. You make excellent content and deserve all of the following you’ve achieved and more.
@@opossumboyo I think that’s why at times people choose to date later on in their life because there comes a point where the most obvious issues are overcome by most people (obviously not everyone we experience life differently) but the whole point is that we are constantly developing and learning, and we may end up or have had bad traits as the person we are slandering.
very true, going onto five years and we aren't perfect but we have been getting closer snd closer
Well I'd add that it's not anyone's responsibility to wait with someone and grow. you don't have to date someone you dislike and wait for them to become someone you do.
@@squelette0this
Red flag culture exists because millions of people spend their entire lives in abusive relationships
Maybe a bit off-topic, but as someone who ended an abusive relationship with one of my parents (death threats, physical/emotional/psychological abuse), I oftentimes struggle to talk about it whenever the question of "why have you fallen out with your parent" arrises.
Usually, when explaining the whole situation, the people who fail to understand me can be divided into two types. One type tries to justify every act of abuse on my parent's behalf I mention regardless of how bad it is. In their opinion, I have failed as a child to forgive my parent, to see the inherent value of love between a parent and a child, and to somehow salvage our relationship (even though I feel like I have tried everything else but cut them off of my life). The other type argues with me whenever I mention the positives of our parent-child relationship and what I love and appreciate about my abuser as a person. They see it as irrational defence of the abuse and as me failing to see my parent's evilness in its entirety.
In both cases, what I tell these people is how that, although I love my parent for everything good they've done to me and appreciate their positive qualities, I do not excuse their behavior whenever I think they went too far. In my view, the first group support an unhealthy version of the "love as an attitude" theory, while the second group leans too hard on the "love as an action" theory.
EDIT: For me personally, ideal love is a balance between the two approaches. If love is only an attitude, you're gonna see everyone as having some inherent value that must always be appreciated no matter what. Consequently, you become too allowing of others' bad behavior and will always try to save relationships that are falling apart beyond repair. But if love is only an action, you're gonna see everyone as having to prove their worth to you and if they fail even once, you leave them forever. As a result, you become too selective and unforgiving of others, whilst failing to see any ways the other person can plausibly change themselves for the better.
i relate, thanks for sharing
It's sad how many people are black and white thinkers like you mention. They can only see things in a simplified view, and even weirder they literally get angry when people don't accomodate their thinking of putting everything cleanly in a box. It's scary and irrational and shows such a lack of critical thinking. I think lately a lot of the weirdness has to do with people living in constant fight or flight mode (without realizing it) after the trauma of the panini. The brain doesn't fully function in that mode and more complex thought processes are shut down. Of course, there's always been a segment of the population that thinks like that, but they used to be considered the dysfunctional ones and not the norm
I definitely see myself in the first group you mentioned. Do you have any thoughts on moving past that, and getting to more of that middle ground, where you’re neither too lenient nor too selective?
@@DJMHXSTGSRCC There's a couple things I've thought up that work for me
Like, one of them is thinking about how I would act if I was in that position. And if I wouldn't act like them, why? Is it just the difference in our characters, or is it because I'd suspect that I'd hurt the other person if I acted that way? Similarly, if you have a problem allowing behaviors just with yourself, think of one person you love, who you'd want to protect at all costs. Like, a little girl, a younger cousin, maybe a best friend. Would you let them be treated that way? How do you think it would make them feel if you acted like that with them? If you saw someone acting towards them that way, would you let it happen? Or would you step in, would you want to make them stop?
Also, it always helps to get outside perspectives. Whether that may be a therapist, a friend, or even like, a teacher (if you have one of those), it can help you set things you much more clearly.
It's not to say that love isn't important, or that you shouldn't support people while they grow. It's that you shouldn't value love more than yourself, and you shouldn't support people at your cost.
I think both groups are dumb. In the end it was your choice to end that relationship with your parent and ultimately its none of their business. If you provide them with your reasoning and they fail to understand you I personally don't think you need to go out of your way to make them understand but you can if you want to.
The people in the first group also need to understand there's a difference between forgiveness and second chances, they do not always go hand in hand. The act of forgiveness is an internal one it's about you letting go of any negative feelings associated with the person, whether or not you choose to give someone a second chance after forgiving them is up to you. You have to forgive someone in order to give them a second chance, but you don't have to give them a second chance in order to forgive them.
The people in the second group need to understand that you can appreciate the good in something without completely dismissing the bad. Appreciating the positives doesn't automatically mean you dismiss and justify the negatives it's called a balanced view where you look at something for what it is in its entirety.
I don't actually think the second group leans on "love as an action" they simply misunderstand you. The first group while on the surface seems to lean on "love as an attitude" deep down probably take a lot from "love as an action", I assume that if you state you forgive your parent, they'll bring up second chances which is an action you take. They're a bit more nuanced than they immediately seem so creating a false dilemma and framing them as binary choices probably isn't the best way to look at it.
As for the ideal approach to love for the most part I agree that balance is going to be the best option, but it's important to remember that different people are made to feel loved in different ways. Some people may take actions as a greater show of love than attitude whereas others may perceive the opposite to be true. Ultimately, I like a blend of both, to me a loving attitude without the actions to show it feels as inauthentic as a loving action without the attitude. I think most things in an ideal loving relationship are going to involve a blend of both approaches. It's also important to remember that we're dealing with ideals so while they might sound easy and good on paper whether or not reality will reflect that is something you won't know for certain till you experience it.
"To feel sane, I must forego love; to feel love, I must render myself insane" damn that was brutal😭
"The only time I feel good is when I find the evil parts of other people. It makes me feel less alone." Really resonated with me. I feel much more comfortable with people who show me their evil.
is that why you got such an evil pfp
Same. That’s why seemingly perfect people in moral regards give me the ick and make me feel bad about myself. I have a friend who is that way. She’s very private and very aware of the way she behaves (I believe). She never gossips (EVER, even the slightest bit comment without an ill intent), always polite, will always do the right thing in a situation. I have conflicting feelings about her. I admire her and I believe she’s a great person but I can’t relate with her. I’m flawed and I know I’m flawed. I don’t use it as an excuse to do bad things but sometimes my flaws take the best of me.
You need to heal. Just because you identify with it doesn't mean it's good.
@@myrtila I've been referred to as "little ms perfect" by friends before and I'm always mocked for being sensitive and the mom of the group, so I guess I can relate to your friend.
I'm not sure she'd relate, but personally, I have a LOT of internalized anger. I just don't show it or talk about it because I worry that people won't understand it I guess. It's not just because I feel those things that I believe they're right. I don't wanna be defined by feelings yk? So I try my best to filter them and give people and the world the best of me. It's not as casual and easy as it seems and i sometimes have mental breakdowns due to suppressing it for too long.
Again, not sure if it's the same for her but that's my experience. Therapy has been helping a lot too
@@cami_triz83 what you described is the exact feeling I get from this friend. Like she’s, too, suppressing her negative emotions. And sometimes, because she’s human too, she lets a tiny bit of anger or frustration slip and you’re left thinking “where did this come from?”. But she goes back to being “perfect” in zero time. What I’m getting from that is that even seemingly perfect and balanced people deal with their demons too, but they make a conscious effort to hide it.
My sister stopped talking to me because "sometimes" I'm rude. So all of my good qualities weren't enough reason for her to love me, and she used therapy talk on me. But she was downright mean to me (she's 8 years older than me btw) SOOO many times, and my response was to forgive and forget. "Throwing people away" just because they aren't perfect is becoming very common. I think it's okay to cut contact with toxic people, but expecting someone to be perfect at all times is actually toxic as well.
Throwing people away just because they aren’t perfect? Sounds like another item to add to our list of the after effects of social media and a globally interconnected world. I fucking hate moral high horsing. No one is perfect, we are all disgusting and weird and terrible in our own secret ways. All that matters is how a person handles negative feedback
@@happyrobot6396Yeah but some people are simply radioactive and should be dumped away for being bad people
How about not being rude? I hate people that can't put in the effort to not be rude. Being rude is a fucking choice. Only thinking about yourself when you say "My other qualities aren't enough for you to love even though I verbally abuse you?" What kinda thing is that? Do you not know your words hurt people? And we must forgive you cause why? "I'm not perfect!" Stfu with that nonsense. No one asking u to be perfect, we asking you to not be a dick. Its simple asf
Your sister has every right to disown your ass. Maybe instead of playing victim look deeper into yourself and stop thinking only about yourself and more on the way you affect other people.
Happy to hear that you forgave her for all the times she made you mad. I also want to note that her not talking to you anymore is quite drastic for such a small reason as being rude sometimes. What I would do is take time to think back on if it just was being rude or could your actions be interpreted in a deeper, more hurtful, way. That said, it might not be all that deep. If that's the case then maybe she's going through something else and is having a hard time, which is why she's shutting down any signs of negativity. You might not be the problem, so try reaching out and making sure she's alright.
It all comes down to the point that whether the person is open to change their toxic behaviour, if they're aware, they could change themselves for the better.
“the purpose of video essays like this are to kickstart your thinking, not to complete it.” well said, Olivia. and i think it applies to any type of media or source of information-not just video essays-which people fail to remember.
I agree, as a society I think we need to love each other & stand up for marginalised voices more. This doesn’t mean standing up for bad people, it means showing bad people how to love & be good people.
Yeah let me know how that works out for you.
I'm a homophobic racist
Yeah , it's part of the reason why i am always a bit weirded out when i hear speaking of "consequences" within the accountability framework ...
It always sounds like they are working in a punitive framework ,
And mind you this i have heard from white , asian , black , native , men and women , cis and trans alike ...
And i am always a bit iffed by it :
We have to agree that the modern justice system doesn't work , for mainly two reasons
1) punishment and cruelty don't work to prevent further harm , they are just bad things we do to bad pepole
2) since we can't allow bad things to happen to "good pepole" (white women , wealthy white men , and white men to some degree)
Thqlaen loopholes exist for these categories to dodge these punishments , accountability and the loafty claim "the law is equal for all" suddenly disappear ...
And that is the consequence of punitive justice ...
It becomes more or less an excuse to police minoritized communities trough "consequences" ,
As a working class white man i am more likely to be stopped and treated violently by the police , then more likely to recive a sentence and a harsher one at that ...
And if i have a criminal record then it's significantly harder to get a job and have romantic relations , build networks in general ...
Like this is all significantly harsher for black working class men , but the idea is that yes working class men are effectively policed trouh punishment like this , so when someone talks about consequences , i feel like asking questions ...
But here comes the second catch :
1) they where sane and knew about restorative justice :
"Oh so you tought we black/natives are savage barbarians who just wanted to torture you ? Question your racism " this scolding doesn't look nor feel good and it gets hard to explain away to the other online
2) they are dangerous and talked about punitive justice :
"Oh so you want fascists to get away with stuff scot free ? You're a bootlicker"
And now i am still a fascist ...
Like why engage in these conversations when a plausible consequence of each outcome is me being called a fascist for asking banal questions like "what do you mean by consequences" ?
I just end up not engaging in these conversations because why bother ? I don't wanna get called names
@@davidegaruti2582 That was a VERY long way of saying what we all know: that cis straight white men are not allowed to engage in any conversations in leftist circles and - even more crucially - are not allowed to have valid class interests.
Sometimes i really wanna know how this world will be when mostly women politicians rules the world.If this is how u want problems to be solved,then we will be doomed
I think that there is a difference between simply loving someone and letting someone hurt you over and over again because you love them. You can love someone while letting them go and holding onto your self respect. There have been people in my life who I really did cherish and who will always have a special place in my heart, but that I had to distance myself from, simply because I could not agree with their current behaviour anymore and because I realized that it is not my responsibility to wait for them to grow. I agree that it is okay to love bad people, because we cannot control what our heart desires, but you still have to look out who gets to stay in your life and whose and what actions you support through your love.
This is the take. At some pint you have to realize that some people need help and therapy, but its no longer your burden to "fix" them. Its up to you to protect ur peace and and not be dragged down by people who aren't ready to help themselves.
yes! there’s loving and then there’s judging. we shouldn’t judge “bad people” because it doesn’t come from a place of love. compassion and respect come from love, and so do boundaries. we can love them, but we also need to respect ourselves when we get hurt.
Clea I don't think you'll ever know how much you changed this teenage girl's perspective of love
Everyhting yall said here was valid... I feel thr same
The part about BPD hit really hard. I hate how this world can be so cut throat, you come across the wrong way, make one mistake, you get to be gatekept and shunned. It happened routinely to one of my exes who I believe had bpd. It broke my heart as I tried to be an exeption to that out of loving intentions l. The reality was that she would constantly sabotage her life and that out relationship never felt safe so could never go deeper. And to have to be another one of the people who eventually steps away from her, and for her to end being the “bad person” of the story has been devastating for me too. It s like you can’t win, sometimes even Love can’t win. Or stepping away was actually the most respectful or Loving thing to do? I have no peace for that. When I think of people being labeled as bad, I think of the nuances of her personality and in general of such experience. Thanks for the video!
I have an ex that also has BPD, so I resonate with this heavily. I cared a lot about him, and wanted to help him get better. Over time, his actions became more and more destructive to himself and to the people around him. It got to the point where I had to step away as well. In light of that experience though, I do believe that stepping away was the most loving thing to do. I think he is doing intense therapy now, is in a treatment center for his addiction issues, and I hope working to be a better person. While it is extremely hard, it is to the benefit of both of you.❤
Same exact experience, it feels like an impossible situation.
I felt this so hard. I just broke up with my ex bf who was heavily believed to have BPD. I terribly miss him at times but the relationship was not okay as I did try to help him and did try to get him to reflect on his actions and gave him so many opportunities to get help or take accountability for his actions. He didn't really seem to want to get better or work on himself as a person until the very last second that I decided I was going to leave him because of his toxic behaviors and how he expected me to walk on eggshells around him all the time. He apparently is looking for me and wants to get back with me but as far as I know he still denies needing help or that he did wrong. It's just so difficult
My favorite thing is how this comment section is full of people not willing to admit they are probably bad people by someone else’s standards. Egotism is strong.
this is pretty much what i said in my comment. morality is subjective
@@coolchameleon21
Morality isn’t subjective. It is also objective.
Two things can be right at the same time.
Example:
Every human adult (who isn’t a pedfile) can agree that dating/ marrying/ and/or having sexual relationships with minors is bad therefore is not morally acceptable.
@@lilcomment yeah morality is objective if you purposely leave out the people who disagree? you cant choose a specific group of people who have a shared belief and then say that because they all agree it means that their belief is objectively correct.
@@stormwatch6992correctness doesn’t matter it matters if it is the morally right thing to do
@@stormwatch6992 Whether or not people disagree doesn't have any influence on the potential objectivity of morality. I think you and I would both agree that objectively, murdering an innocent person is immoral. There are some people out there who would disagree. That doesn't make morality subjective, that makes those people wrong. Morality can be objective truths in the same way there are objective truths of physics. I'm not sure whether I agree or not but there are plenty of philosophers who do.
This means so much. Ive been feeling like an awful person for being involved with extremely selfish and unempathetic people with horrible beliefs. I felt terrible about myself because no matter how awful they and their beliefs were, I struggled a lot to walk away because of everything I knew they were going through.
I always made sure to hold them accountable and always voiced my disagreements, but the more I stayed the more my mental health declined, so I ended up finally walking away. As someone with very bad abandonment issues, that was an extremely conflicting experience. But this video feels like a hug
I feel you so much, I really love my friend because he's funny and he always includes me but he always makes fun of other people and he doesnt help much to our research. it is getting tiring to correct him and tell him that what he does is not good to others but he's very insesitive to other and he's sensitive when it comes to himself and his feelings only. It's tiring but i love him so much.
I might end our friendship after our research finishes, it will probably hurt me more than I ever have since I had a lot of my firsts with him and really just can't stand him anymore.
@@chiescentfleur hey I tried to reply sooner but UA-cam wouldn't post the comment. But basically I just wanted to say I'm sorry that you're going through that, and that I think letting go of that friendship is definitely valid, so don't let the way someone used to be dictate how they treat you or others right now. I've been much better since I finally accepted this, we deserve better!
It's def not easy and it is gonna hurt to let go but see it as someone stabbing you in the back. It will hurt to remove the knife, but it's either removing it and allowing it to heal or keeping it there forever yk. I hope everything goes well, wish you the best
My problem is I have a terrible time voicing complaints to people I care about. My rule before ending a relationship or taking a step back is to fully vocalize everything I have a problem with, because if they don’t even know what they are doing wrong, then it’s my fault for not giving good feedback
@@happyrobot6396 Right, if you want relationships to last long tell them and confront them about the things that are bothering you, if they did adjust better if not, let them go. It's better to confront them rather than be passive about it.
ive loved bad people and ive been a bad person who has been loved, and how complicated that feeling is that nothing i write on a single youtube comment can explain it all, but to me love comes already with the "bad" things. I can only draw the line at violent crime tbh.
I agree with you on this
Do you draw the line on bigotry?
"bigotry" Is a Toxic umbrella term that does not mean anything.
@@giacomobandini969 ok !!
@@natasha5553bigotry is violence imo regardless of whether there’s any physical assault bc of the nature and severity of the sentiment
I’m not religious but I like how Christian’s approach love. Endless, indiscriminate, and unrelenting, the way christ loves you is how you should love others. Stuart Knechtle said that you will be judged by god how you in your life have judged others.
I don’t know how this is related but I was just reminded of it
I'm no longer an active Christian but I keep remembering our priest telling us that the most important commandment of Jesus is to love one another and that's how He will know we are His children. The children od God will know how to love. It's not our job to judge bad people for that is reserved for God. Our only job is to love.
I'm a 'lukewarm' Christian but I always admire how Jesus loves us all. Like it's the greatest form of love 💖
I appreciate this sentiment a lot and try to embody it but i cant help but think about how this logic of love is warped to excuse abusive people who have done no work on themselves and encouraging victims to engage with them as if nothing happened.
@@llynxfyremusic but at that point is that what love is? I’m sure that even the best virtues can be exhausted to validate an individuals poor or abusive character or conduct. I don’t think it’s Christianity pushing someone to excuse the abuser. After all Jesus died for all our sins so you should hold your life in greater regard. And the abuser should take responsibility and repent; the weight of your crimes can only be determined by you.
I’m aware that people may not always have the privilege of stepping away from their abusers. But you should love yourself first, which means fighting for their own sake to attain some self respect. Maybe once you find love for yourself you can start to care, sacrifice, and forgive with grace, one day you may even forgive and love the abuser even if it is for your own sake.
@@perfctblu i dont think jesus himself had a warped view of love. I think people warp his view of love and pressure people who've been subjected to awful things to stay close to the people who've done said things, against their wishes. Especially in family settings. I'm not saying all people do it but its a repeated motif i've seen with victims in some Christian communities.
I have loved somone once. It was a short relationship but i cared for him deeply. He had mental issues and found it hard to express his own emotions and was a bad communicator. I loved him and sacrificed to try to make the relationship work. He didn’t do the same. I understand why and i empathise with him. I over estimated how much i could help him. So i left and told him we could still be friends and i still wanted to be there for him. I told him i loved him but couldn't priotise him as a romantic partner as it was hurting me. I put in a lot of work.
We were friends briefly until he apruptly cut me off. In spaces where we did communicate he started to insult me. Blamed me for his problems and tried to make me feel isolated from my friends. It went on for months. I was respectful until i snapped publicly and told him to leave me alone. I'm deeply angry with him. He repeatedly insisted i hated him and every time i said no. He's hurt me over and over again and i dont know if i hate him. What i do know is that i fiercely want him to be better. He's a very troubled person and it hurts me to see him that way. I wish he'd stop insisting he's a terrible person. I wish i could help him even though i know i can't. If i do love him its because i've seen him be good and it upsets me that he's so insistent that he cant change and thats why i'm angry. I'll still root for him to be good even if he's hurt me. I dont think i can forgive him until he does that.
I dont know if i have a point here. I think some people dont get that love can still exist from a distance. Love doesn't always look like being a constant in soneone else's life. I dont know if my anecdote matches the love you talk about in your second paragraph. I think even distant love for a bad person can be unhealthy for a person if thats not a part of a person's natural healing process. I dont think its wrong to be that way. I'm very conflicted about my own experiences.
10:32 is exactly what I think about love. You can still feel an emotional connection to a bad person, while disagreeing with their actions.
I think this debate is a classic example of conflating the map for the territory. “Love” is a word we’ve invented to describe how we feel, but words are not reality-they’re tools. I believe that we have to assess someone’s behavior on an individual basis (I love this way, you love that way). If love doesn’t have a concrete definition, it makes sense that some types of love cause pain while others don’t. In my opinion, a successful relationship is one where all parties act out their love in a similar or complimentary way.
right? take hannibal and will as an example. people always describe it as "obsession" and not love, but what is a definition of love that even the sanest can agree one? none. i think what matters is at the end of the day is that do you want to be with them, and do they want to be with you? and what will do you with that information can tell you if you have loved or what way u define love.
The thing for me is “feelings” are real. If you have love, it genuinely exists.
It doesn’t have to be valid, its true despite all else because you feel it.
As someone with ADHD and memory issues due to trauma, I often forget birthdays and important dates, little things, and gifts from people but I still love my friends and believe I am deserving of love.
I express my love through art and random "I love you" texts, and my friends understand that even if I miss their official anniversaries, every day is their anniversary with me.
I think everyone is deserving of love, and believing in a uniform love is stupid because everyone loves differently, but we all love nonetheless
Forgetting dates can be fixed especially if it’s someone you truly value. All you are is flawed person like every single human is, not a bad person.
DUUUUde. im terrible about christmas. Im pretty sure i have not given a single christmas present in the past three years. Im college age. i feel like i should be giving my immediate family wrapped presents.
As someone with shit memory for no reason, and who also forgets birthdays and gifts: there is no excuse. Your ADHD and trauma induced memory loss are NOT excuses. You have a phone or computer, which has near infinite choices for automated calendar software to plug in all your important dates and receive reminders so that you don’t forget.
There’s no excuse. I own it, I know that I’m not a very thoughtful person a lot of the time and tend to express my appreciation through different means rather than gifts.
@@complexion235you should dawg. Step up and wrap some damn gifts this Christmas
@@happyrobot6396this person never excused their actions.
They simply act the way they do. Their actions don’t define anything other then that. They love like everyone else does, and are loved like everyone else and should be deserving of it.
This came right when I needed. My rose tinted glasses about my toxic ex have shattered this past week
Do you feel like this is helping you move forward? I feel like this video is amplifying my regrets about leaving him
The therapy speak portion I think is the most relevant aspect, and it leads into a greater issue in society. People are hyperfixating on "becoming the best self" that we forgetting that part of becoming self-actualized is taking on a role that encourages growth in others. You can't care for others if it's an inconvenience for you - your needs are always more important than others needs. And eventually you become stunted, because how much can we really grow if we only allow ourselves that space in echo chambers that never challenge the path we've chosen? Sometimes, our obsession with self-growth comes at the cost of others. Sometimes that's a good thing, but it isn't right to act like your own comfort and desires should always trump the needs of others, particularly those we love.
Oh man I can’t endorse this comment enough
once i loved this guy who most people would call "bad", i saw the potential of being a great person in him which convinced me to do my best for him. but while i was trying to heal him, i killed myself instead. loving someone is always so complicated but better prioritize ourselves first.
Red flags are super important to take into consideration when you don't come from stability and respect in relationships. You have to draw a line somewhere. I grew up watching women fall on their face and marry abusers. It's from spaces where people come from generations of trauma and abuse that a lot of the red flag "hysteria" comes from.
It's more about developing an awareness of both the things that can go wrong, and the growth that can happen. You need to pick someone that can help themselves and will let you help them, and who will let you grow too.
But it's super important that you can't accept love bombing, or fall for "potential" and future faking. Those terms do get overused. You can apply the language to anything less than perfect i.e. everyone. It's okay to see the shades of gray, but it's dangerous to fail to acknowledge that there are limits. And it is important to be able to know where your boundaries are. I think this type of conversation actually helps to make them clearer, but don't knock or invalidate the experiences of the women who have experienced those deeply toxic or abusive relationships. The language was born out of a need to extricate people from relationships that no one should ever experience, or to overcome childhoods of neglect and abuse.
Healing bad childhoods doesn't happen all at once, lots of people go through prolonged periods of wanting to build up thicker walls and it's in the latter stages when they can start to be more lenient. It's why you see so many people in a panic warning others to put up those walls. A good enough childhood actually gives you a huge advantage and a type of superpower where you are more naturally able to discern the shades of gray and who really has your back. Other people really struggle and can even start to rile others up in the wrong direction. It's more that there are people out there dealing with very different battles.
It's like there's a need for people with good childhoods to go to therapy and figure out the ways that they had a leg up, even. They were protected, or respected on a daily basis, treated with sensitivity. It puts you at a huge advantage where you are more ready from the get go to let people off the hook for minor stuff. Other people are "hypervigilant" but the things they are running from are very real, not figments of their imagination or faults in their thinking.
Well, the asshole men win and the normal men don‘t. You have all the options and still pick bad. But hey, being good gets you used and abused because well, idk, fboy asshole is just better?
I completely agree with you
thank you
Beautiful.
2:05 this is so on point you have to agree w your parents in public to be safe. also there are times when your own reality gets distorted especially when you are confused and finding yourself.
i think what’s made me categorize people i’ve loved in toxic relationships of the past as “bad” really just boils down to their unwillingness to embrace introspection and accept that they had done things that harmed me, as well as their unwillingness to adjust their behavior for me in general. basically, they didn’t seem to take my feelings about their behavior seriously and instead seemed to be deadset on getting something from me without having to go out of their way for me in terms of their behavior. there had been many MANY times in these relationships when i was asked to change my behavior for their sake, after empathizing with their perspective and emotional needs, and i put a lot of time and energy into that because i wanted to create harmony. what characterizes a “bad” person to love, in my opinion, is a lack of authentic vulnerability and eagerness to be influenced by the other. to be loved is to change with someone, not demand that the person change for you all of the time. both people will have to make sacrifices and adjustments on a deep level at some point for it to be healthy and balanced. when i called my exes bad people, i feel as though really i was saying they were bad partners. sure, their flaws are understandable from an outside perspective, and i can still love and appreciate them as a person apart from that if they have positive traits, but someone needs to be willing to change and suit the needs of their partner if necessary in order to be a good partner. there’s nothing wrong with loving the good traits of a bad person and hoping they change one day, but they have to be willing to change in the first place for that to happen, and them not wanting to change or accept responsibility for their behavior is what makes them a bad partner in the first place. this is the flaw that i think acts as an umbrella for all other flaws to fall under: if you aren’t self aware, or able to see yourself from a different perspective from your own biased view, or willing to work on those things then you won’t ever be a good partner. everyone is flawed. if you are self aware and willing to change, you can at least validate your partner/friend and put effort into the relationship. even if you don’t do it perfectly, the intention and level of honest effort really makes all the difference here i think
This was helpful to read. Thank you
I have had an experience with someone with bpd. They were my closest friend. I loved them very dearly. I respect them as a person to this day, despite the abuse I have received and am still coping with to this very day. It's been 8-9 months since I last physically saw them - less than since they last messaged me or other people in my life.
They utilised a lot of therapy speak to talk to me. They influenced another person who was my best friend to end things with me. I don't hate them. We had a lot of good times - but their mental illness, despite it all, won. I genuinely hope they are doing okay and in the same breath; I hope we never meet again.
Something about loving someone because you respect them seems to be missing something. Like respect can break down in a relationship, but the love can still be there.
a helicopter mom
Welcome to philosophy
I grew up with deeply religious parents who valued their faith above all else. Their devotion sometimes felt like a barrier to their love for me and my siblings, as they tried to frame their care as an act of devotion to God. Despite this, I felt their love, not because they were particularly caring, but because there were moments that transcended their strict adherence to religious duty. Unfortunately, their abuse, especially my father's violence, has left me struggling with daily life even now. My father's aggression ceased only when I became "a woman," though it still happens occasionally. My parents believe in corporal punishment for not praying, and I was sent to religious camps where I faced further abuse. As a 15-year-old Muslim girl, I wear the hijab because my parents force me to, despite being a closeted atheist. Every day in this house is a denial of my true self; I live in constant pretense. Sometimes, I feel that they love only the version of me that conforms to their beliefs, but they're still my parents, and I'm still their child. My mom cries in prayer for my guidance to faith, longing for us to be together in heaven. Even when they cause me pain, there are moments when my mother's embrace makes me feel safe, and laughter with my family fills me with love. However, I know that if they knew my true self, their reaction could be extreme-potentially even deadly, as honor killings are a reality in our culture. I dread the day I must reveal my true beliefs and desires, fearing the profound pain it would cause my mother, who would blame herself and see it as a divine punishment. Despite everything, I love my parents, and I know they love me. I can't bear the thought of causing them such anguish, so I fear the day I have to be honest with them. It feels like my choices are to wait for their death or consider ending my own life to avoid hurting them.
I'm so sorry you have to go through that and all I can say as a disabled Latin American atheist is that I feel like the left has really over corrected for what became and is becoming of the new atheists of the mid to late 2000s. (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.)
I''m so sprry with what you are currently experiencing, I hope everything's going to be fine for you and your family :(
That's quite relatable, I hope you can find peace one day :)
Once upon a time I had the same life as yours except that my parents have divorced and I lived with my step mum who is equally victim for the religious fanaticism of my father because devotion can never lead someone to be fanatic ,fanaticism is a spiritual narcissism in my opinion because you appoint yourself as a judge to people's morals and if you have delusions well God bless the victims so to make the story short in order to be my true self who was not atheist but very open and flexible intellectually I went out lived my life and now for economic reasons I'm back again things are much better because my father grew old and aging makes people vulnerable and less violent so we don't have that special great bond that usually one have with his parents but it's not bad any way I encourage you to go somewhere self and start your alone journey as soon as I are financially capable to provide for yourself its worth it
Good luck girl I really wish you all the best ❤
a new olisunvia
my day is blessed
I usually have a high threshold for problematic people. I recognise their problematic traits, I recognise what led them to act that way, and I tend to accept them as they are. I do not let the more toxic parts get to me but instead gain insight into their unique perspective that perhaps a conventionally "good" person would not be able to give me. It would be much more interesting to me to have a candid conversation about the ugly side of their personality as a friend who is not being at the receiving end. It helps me first be able to recognise and avoid being negatively affected by it, and secondly, gives me empathy and the ability to connect to a wider range of people. These friends still have a place in my heart, even if I wish they would not have broken my trust and therefore having needed to distance myself.
I interpret love as the culmination of connection, commitment, and empathy. Even if one falters, the others can stand strong. That’s why it’s possible to love people you haven’t interacted with in ages or why it’s harder, but not impossible, to love someone who hurts others.
I think being able to love someone is a quality in oneself.
However, being able to let go someone you love if they do harm you... even more of a quality.
I'm disabled and I honestly think you left out a very important part of it: The Halo Effect. Notice how barely anyone goes to bat or is willing to put in the effort for someone that's physically outside of the norm. Ask any disabled person, especially those with visible disabilities, whether or not they get that type of consideration by people? I can almost guarantee you it will be no. We have to always be perfect. We can't make mistakes. Whether we like it or not, the physical aspect does play a role. I can't tell you how many times I've made the same mistake as people and simply because I'm in a chair, I don't get a second chance.
I kinda agree with the lady near the end about how I pathologize certain behaviors to avoid criticism but in my defense I honestly doubt I was conscious of doing so when I did it.... Still, I appreciate the new perspectives most of all, thanks for the help!
I think the key is that love like all other emotions is irrational.
But loving a truly bad person is by all accounts a failing.
At some point you must outweight the cost of loving/ supporting someone.
And when that comes at the cost of others you should not do so.
There is a point where love becomes dangerous.
It can be abused and twisted into something truly awfull.
So loving a bad person is not by definiton bad.
But enabling bad behaviour is.
Can we seperate the two?
Maybe, but probably not.
So the abstract and the real differ greatly in this case.
One has consequences to consider the other does not.
Perfectly said
I'm sorry I'm slow but can you explain what you meant by the last four sentences about "can we seperate the two? Probably not" and "the abstract differs real"
@@natasha5553
Loving a bad person on paper isn't bad but in practice is usually bad because it leads to enabling bad behavior. Ideally you would love with enabling the bad behavior but that is easier said then done
@@natasha5553 what i meant is that in theory loving a bad person is not a problem, but in reality it turns out that often comes with enabling bad behaviour.
If loving a bad person can be seperated from enabling their bad behaviour it could be a positive.
But most of the time we end up getting used or abused by loving bad people.
So while the idea of loving a bad person isn't a problem, the act of doing so usually ends up being a problem in reality.
are we all on the same page about the contrapoints video on twilight. she talked about just this, love or eros invades and takes over you without asking.
Love is just something we should cherish. If he/she hurts you, you tell them and if they won't admit it or make efforts, leave. Or just wait some time, question yourself and see if he/she comes back by admitting what they did wrong too (admit all your mistakes too, y'all are a couple, its a together principle hun)
AAAAAAH my opinion! restated online by a person! i feel so happy. yeah i agree with you, it's something we should hold dear to us, because isn't it just so awesome? us humans, who are so enamoured with our own interests, have the capacity to genuinely love others.
YES! The word that sums up everything you just said= patience. if everyone just follows this stupid advices online about how being toxic is pretty much any mistake that a partner would make, then there's no possibility of growing as a couple and understanding each other's limits... Patience is the most beautiful and important thing in a relationship, people that makes mistakes should have time to say sorry or to explain why they said/did something that hurts you, so then he can in the future have the opportunity to do it differently and learn your limits.
@@qlockwerk553 i'm so glad you share this opinion too :)! Of course! Love is the reason of why we keep living in a way. The people dear to us are always there to bring us up, what would we be without them? There's no need for a lot of people to love you. Sometimes just one love can make such a difference
We just need so much love, and its the prettiest thing alive
@@marienneh1060 you're so right !!
Patience really is the word and of course the key to anything in life and especially love. If you don't have the patience to communicate your toughts and feelings with your lover, then maybe you're not truely ready to be with someone. Without patience everything in the relationship would sum up as an hurricane ; both of the people would just fight over and over because they won't be able to just stop, question themselves, their reasons, try having an omniscient point of view. Sometimes a break is a great thing to do.
The way things are going online it’s going to be “ if they hurt you once, you cancel them.”
Because simply put, we are all capable of terrible things, and it’s important we understand why and how someone ends up doing such, and how we prevent that.
@lif6737 😭🙏
Understanding and actually feeling bad for them are two sets apart
Basing love mostly on action is transactional, soulless. Like gifts, I rarely give them but they're always sentimental. I was kinda shitty in a recent relationship; trauma, baggage, and so on. Even months after the break-up, talking with the ex for a bit, they mentioned it with begrudging gratitude. it's the kinda thing only someone who really knows you would get, and not obvious.
Holy shit this opened my mind to alot of things I've never really thought of.
Personal antidote: my father is a extremely bad relationship with my mother. So bad that I had to leave at 15 to live with my grandparents because his live for my mother caused him to excuse the horrible treatment he put on me. I always just looked at it like well he's terrible for loving her I don't under how he could love someone that is litterally draining the life from him but this video made me think of my dad. And how he still lived my mother even though she is objectively a horribly abusive person. Just I just think of how hard it must be to love someone like that. But now knowing this information makes me want to tell him its ok you love her. Its ok you still love her its not ok what she's done to you but I don't blame you anymore for loving someone you've been with for 19 years. I just got to say thank you so much like geuinely each video you make completely just changes my entire outlook on life.
As someone with BPD it is a struggle to deal with the intimacy of a relationship. Thank you for addressing it ❤
I feel you ❤🥹
i immediately thought “we accept the love we thing we deserve “ quote after this video
"Love as an attitude" is so foreign to me lol. I can literally feel my affection and care for someone decrease the moment they do something that I couldn't morally conceive of doing.
In my mind, there are certain actions that a person can only take if they fundamentally care for others very little, or if they fundamentally consider things like honesty to be unimportant. there is a difference between a good person making a mistake, and a person doing something that only a bad person could do.
I relate to that pretty hard. People's actions reflect in some combination their personalities and their circumstances. Maybe I'm just judgemental but yeah when people do something morally wrong I will feel less strongly towards them. I need to know the people I hold highly in my life are good people for them to keep that position in my mind.
Love is complicated and sometimes you're blinded by it . I was with a narcisistic guy we both were two miserable people who lied to each other . He's still my friend but I feel like I only try to motivate him to do better. I still love him but I try to move on.
We're no longer even friends but I still wish him best.
All of your last points put into words what I've been thinking for a while. "Narcissism" and "toxic" have become so widely used, that colloquially it doesn't mean anything anymore. Clinically, it still holds value. But some random social media person using it? Devalues the word entirely.
I love this so much! You touch on such an overlooked subject when it comes to relationships that we attract and pursue even. Although I wouldn’t necessarily call them bad people or such.
You gain something from it regardless of it being a positive or negative thing. I think of it as more of an incompatibility type of thing. You may connect with them on certain levels, and it shouldn’t be looked down on nor judge. It’s human to be able to connect regardless of differences.
And it’s okay within your own personal boundaries within that relationship. I think the most important thing to really take away is being able to discern the difference between a healthy relationship versus an unhealthy one regardless if the person is good or bad.
This video came at the perfect time. Just broke up with someone and they were a terrible person but I did cherry-pick the good in them
You probably aren’t that much of a good person yourself if you were able to overlook apparently so many red flags.
I've always hated the saying "if he wanted to he would". It is such a blanket statement that downplays so many other factors that could be playing into a relationship and explaining someones actions. This video helped me articulate that so thanks
The psychoanalysis really resonated with me, I have gone through several therapists due to them offering sympathy and empathy, only for me to feel ashamed, as if they must be coddling me dishonestly.
I’ve always felt my parents had done the same, I’ve even ended romantic relationships because people have been ‘too accepting’. I feel there’s no way they can truly be so kind in the face of my flaws, because it doesn’t line up with my own skewed sense of self.
Great video, thank you for sharing!
omg babe wake up, new oliSUNvia dropped
How hard is it to write an original comment?
@@miladeskandari7 I wrote it for me cuz I'm a fan of her vids it's not that serious
no need to be a hater here, i always appreciate these comments
@@oliSUNvia Hate? I just asked a question smh
@@miladeskandari7 no, you're right dude this is pretty annoying, I'm trying to see people's opinions on the video topic and I have to scroll and scroll because all I see is people glazing the uploader, like come on bruh ik you wanna show support but just talk about the video please 💀 I barely see anybody talking about the video
"i love you olivia" we all say in unison
I LOVE U OLIVIA
I have dated men who have acted immorally, as I define it. Similar to the example of Baby Reindeer, the traumatic pasts of these people were uncovered as I got to know them better. It was easy to use this as reason to stay in those relationships. It’s been healing to recognize that while I walked away from those relationships I can still hold love for them, albeit still with some resentment. I may not be “in love” anymore but I can always wish others the best- and this doesn’t say anything about my own morality.
This conversation seems to tie into the debate on rehabilitation. It’s hard to accept it but even
those who commit the most vile acts should be given an honest opportunity to change. Just… maybe not with the victim guiding it.
Great video and analysis. Your essays have been getting better and better, and this by far (imo) is the most well-executed. It really resonated with me, I think when it comes to love, we must always remember, just because you love someone doesn't always mean they should be in your life. Everyone is redeemable and has value but not everyone is open to changing for the better. It's up to you to decide if you can accept and emotionally handle being in relationships with those who are not actively recognizing their flaws and working on them. And even when people are willing to do the work, sometimes who they are in that moment is still too much for their loved ones to handle. And that's ok too.
On good and bad: I think there are no good and bad people. Only those acting out of fear and ignorance. Lacking empathy and compassion is a kind of emotional ignorance. And lashing out is a self-defense brought on by self-love. Everything stems from love, even hate. Which means that too can be redeemed.
Dang this video absolutely hit home. In our crazy world I feel love is becoming harder and harder to find. This helps me feel like I have power in cultivating the kind of love I wish to see. Thank you Olivia
I think that there are many interesting alternative routes in this discussion when we look at "bad person" less as an ontological category that attaches itself to people ranging from morally questionable to reprehensible, the way we often use the term in everyday conversation (I'm not sure that there is a such thing as a "bad person," in this sense), and instead look at being a "bad person" through an Aristotelian lens (being a bad person is person-ing poorly).
When being treated for OCD, one of the first really big hurdles was accepting the negative consequences my obsessions, compulsions, and other behaviors associated with OCD for those besides myself. When living with any kind of mental health condition, it can be difficult to look past how intense experiences seem: the anxiety, depression, or otherwise overwhelming sensations that seem to attack the self so directly that they leave very little room for considering anyone else. It was, and often still is, difficult to not wallow in guilt about it, because accepting that meant also accepting that a consequence of my disorder, the dysregulation it introduced into my life, was that it made me bad at person-ing toward other people. I had been, and still have the potential to be, a bad person. Taking my treatment seriously also meant wanting to be a better person toward other people.
Not that not wanting to kiss someone makes you a bad person, but the example you brought up in the video of your friend with OCD (which I strongly empathize with - I've experienced it myself) is just one small example of how mental illness can often be a refusal to live in the same moment as other people, distorted perceptions and preoccupations creating a kind of barrier that impacts the ways we can show and receive love, sometimes past the point of recognizability as love.
I think the thing about the debate between love-as-attitude and love-as-action is that love, whether it's rooted in biology or social construction, is a social emotion, like shame. There is no love without something TO love. It seems to me as though loving something also requires accepting certain obligations toward that thing, which is why we cannot love as many people or things as there are that deserve to be loved.
I don't think it's impossible to love bad people by accepting these responsibilities toward them, but those responsibilities may include difficult decisions about confronting their improper person-ing, and when mutual contact is inadvisable. I think one obligation of love is that we want the other person to achieve the best version of themselves, and that means some degree of person-ing correctly. I cannot love you if I don't have real investment in you being a good person. I think that loving bad people becomes morally questionable when we lose that investment, no longer care about their proper person-ing, or do not behave in the right ways in our relationship to promote that end. It's a big ask, and it's difficult to figure out what that proper orientation looks like, but that's why morality, and love, matter. If it were as easy as affection or care, it wouldn't be nearly as valuable.
Your videos make me realize how much work i need on myself and maybe thats a positive thing but im scared
I completely agree with Olivia, love is cultivated, in fact the nurturing itself is love.
Like The Doctor said, love isn't an emotion, it's a promise, it's a duty of care.
Personally, I think there's a spectrum between these two extremes of attitude and action and I'm somewhat in the middle.
Both are spectrums and you need a minimum of both to love healthily imo. Like, I totally and entirely relate to the "love as an attitude" moto, it's exactly how I see humans in general, I love and respect every single person just for the sake of existing, and I can still love someone while condemning their action. But it's not everything to build a relationship.
The pop culture clips from shows in the background actually really helps me feel and resonate with the relationship and identity dynamics you’re talking about
Me personally, I think love is defined by behavior. For example, a physical abuser beats their spouse, thats the abuser loving their spouse wrong (I believe there are right and wrong ways to love someone).
If I learned the abuser was themselves abused as a child, that merely explains their behavior - and that's it.
For further example, the TV show you mentioned (I never watched it): just because the main character has trauma, doesn't really change the morality of any bad thing that character does unto other people in the show.
To put it simply: I don't care WHY people behave the way they do. I only care about what they do.
interesting view! ive thought about this and gone back and forth with whether i agree. do you think you can allow some space for forgiveness then? since you understand that it was all cause and consequence?
@@vic1723 I think you can forgive someone, but you shouldn't forget their behavior or what they did.
Yes... The Why's are for the person themselves to answer and resolve
The problem with this line of thinking is that it at the wrong times fails to forgive, and forgives at the wrong times. Behavior outside of context means nothing. Consistent behavior and refusal to change, of course, however, becomes the context. Moreover, some behaviors we might see as reprehensible (see: other cultures) might actually make perfect moral sense to the person and in their context of which you might be unaware. Also, your own moral filter could be off. Also, things you may find good can become bad in a greater context.
Take revolutionaries: their actions are violent, yes, but (sometimes) sensible within a greater context. Their behavior seems reprehensible to a lay public, but the lay understanding is more likely than not wrong or otherwise skewed.
Lay people themselves engage in all kinds of behaviors which they think are good but are indeed harmful at greater scales.
I agree with the view to a certain extent but, even if their circumstances or past experiences don't justify their behavior , as a person who loves them , you do start to understand those reasons and then isn't it then tougher to blame the person for the actions rather their circumstances and experiences
This video was really great in capturing an emotion and experience that I've had so much trouble explaining to others. It's hard to love someone that hates themselves and projects all of that on to you. Despite being loving, kind and understanding back to them it only makes them feel even worse because they feel like they don't actually deserve any of it. It's heartbreaking because you know how they really feel and how they really want to express how much they love you but can't because of the shame and guilt they feel from receiving the love you give them. It's really such a heartbreaking experience to go through, as it seems like there's nothing in your power that you can do for them until it becomes too much for yourself. It especially sucks because I now feel like I'm that person and act out in ways to push my loved ones away because I don't think I deserve care/love...
It's incredible how much dedication and thoughtfulness has gone into making this video. The way you structure it, leading us to understand only by the end, makes every piece and every idea important.
Not to mention the work it takes to get the clips together
im the bad person some people love, i hope i can become better for them.
Olivia's videos are like warm hugs to the soul 🥰
I was actually scared of this, and watching it is interesting. What you said at the end definitely made me reflect about my view on my ex. In which I just couldnt understand what about it didnt work or rather, why it couldnt work. When I broke up I viewed her as a whole person and understood it wasnt going to work with me. I was exhausted and tired and i loved her. But holding onto that love became too much work that I couldnt hold onto. After the breakup, my mind couldnt stop thinking about why she was the way she was, and what I could have done differently. Hell I still am doing this.
When I came across BPD it felt like a relief seeing people have similar symptoms and at first I was convinced this was what it was. But the more I read, the more I realised that wasnt the case, the breakup was amicable and she wanted to make sure I was happy because i was so tired. I dont think thats bpd. And yet I just couldnt understand why she continued to apply pressure on me.
It made me reflect about what I couldve done better, but appreciate that I just couldnt have known in the moment what the best option was. I tried my best to do the best options. And I can confidently say during our times of disagreement it was hard to work with her to come to a conclusion we were both happy with.
She wanted whats best for me, and she said that post breakup. And thast something I overlooked. I dont know if its true or not, but she said it, so I have to believe there's a truth behind it.
Its sad how real this video is for me, I loved her because ultimately she was someone with a worse past than me, she has done wrong and she's trying to be better in her own way. And I wanted to support that. But being with a person like that as a partner is tough, too tough. You realize they have a lot to learn, and maybe being with you wasnt a good idea, because you're offsetting what they have done.
"you are so perfect" was the phrase I was so anxious hearing, because i know im not. Im me, and im just trying to be better than yesterday however that looks like that for me.
And she's her own person. I never tried to belittle her, but i wasnt able to support her with what she was doing aswell.
I remember right before the breakup i was watching a video and even though I think i took the message the wrong way, it made me see a bit of clarity in myself. I have tried EVERYTHING I know I can to make this work, to the point of not being able to take care of myself because I was continuously stressed over how things will turn out. She tried in her own way, but it really wasnt enough to convince me at the time.
I just wasnt comfortable or happy and I was just always worried about stepping on a eggshell that will explode, or constantly saying I will do loads for her. It was none stop added pressure that I couldnt take. And I think someone will be able to handle that better, but I cant. And thats ok. That was when I understood i cant continue making this work, because it just wasnt happening.
I think something I really need to learn is to take my happiness seriously. Im so use to putting aside for others Its natural. And I think thats why I dont regret the breakup, i regret the relationship. But it me taking a chance to learn my happiness is important and I cant keep putting it aside until it becomes drastic.
love that you brought up bpd from a lived experience perspective. i have bpd (among other things) and this and my "badness" or evilness and others peoples goodness is something i think about alllll the time like it's actually heavy and almost obsessive (i have struggled with moral scrupulocity ocd). this video was so interesting, thank you
You are not bad or evil, just different
I struggle with moral scrupulosity ocd as well and it’s hell. I’m always just scared to even watch videos like this because I’m afraid it’ll trigger a flare up. Stay strong lovie, OCD is a lil bitch and morals are subjective
It's rare that people with BPD aren't stigmatised, infact it's rare that any mental health isn't
Honestly this is a very thought provoking subject, I never really took the time to think about what love really means to me personally. In a way, I believe everyone is bad, we’re human and we aren’t perfect and never will be, and I think it’s even better to love someone for their imperfections rather than their perfections. So maybe (for me at least) love is more of an attitude you can have about another individual. Though, I do have a more pessimistic view on humanity and hatred seems to be more and more rampant, love can only be temporary, more of a feeling or a mood rather than a lasting attitude towards a person. Apart from all that, I love the philosophical conversations on this channel, new sub here
I genuinely needed this so thank you. I recently had a friend who I was starting to get serious with and almost moved into a relationship. Just before we took the next step She confided that she was currently getting kicked out of her house because she had pressured her roommates into a 3 way that was not completely consensual. it was a really scary and important detail that brought me to realize how pushy she had been in our interactions and I seriously had to consider what a future relationship of any kind would look with her. At the same time I kind of went on a spiral of a debate with myself over both what I owed to her and what I owed to myself. For context she is trans and has been homeless before and I know that she is at a high risk of returning to homelessness and self harm as shes losing her home and major pieces of her support system. I ended up deciding to honor the commitment I had originally made of friendship and support her how I could and became a pillar for her to lean on during that time. We had multiple long talks about how her pushyness comes from insecurity and self destructive behavior and I genuinely held hope that she would change for the better. Unfortunately after a month she started going straight back to dating with a 12 hour date and has not slowed down despite me gently reminding her she had said she needed to stop and work to herself. This really hurt and I do think changed the way I view her even if I still do love her we've started to grow apart and while I still am friendly and open to her as I do hold love for her and do believe everyone can change we won't really ever been in the same place. And during this whole situation I had a very sinking feeling in my gut that like I was a bad person because I chose to stick by someone who committed SA and that I never told our mutual friends (mostly because I feel like its not my story to share) and part of me feels like by continuing to be friends with her I give her like a sense of legitimacy that what she did wasn't that bad and that I could be enabling her to continue. All of this is just to say that I think something I kind of realized while listening just now is that in a way I was seeing myself from the outside as someone whos morally bankrupt for continuing to love someone who did bad things but Idk maybe I shouldn't go too hard on myself for supporting someone who needed it.
very insightful
I think some of the best and worst things we have are shared. Love, grief and what not. It gives a collective humanity. A chance to grow and nurture.
I've loved a bad person. I find it hard to categorise who is "a bad person" per se, because the way I see it, it's the actions caused by certain factors that are bad. I tend to stray from stigmatizing a person as "bad". I would use a number of different, more precise words in order to avoid generalisation. We can have a bad person who tortures a kitten for pleasure, commits mass genocide and we can have a bad person who beats a partner after consuming too much alcohol. I can't say much in the case of a war criminal or kitten abuser, because I've never had a relationship with that person. The idea of such person repells me horribly, however in the back of my mind, I still have the thought of how badly that person must have been hurt in order to channel their emotions and needs into such cruelness. But, before I move on to the third position I mentioned, I feel I must say a few words back regarding what I mentioned as trouble with categorising. Bad actions. I've seen a lot of those from my mother, often she hurt me deeply and still does. But I find it hard to categorise her as a bad person. However, now smoothly moving on the other mentioned person, I was really close with my mother's former boyfriend, who overtime I started to consider bad. Maybe it's easier for me to name him a bad person rather than my mom, because he's not around anymore. I can't tell. They were/ are still both abusers in their own way. But he was an alcoholic, abusive to me and my mom both mentally and to her also physically. He hurt me. A lot. But I still loved him. Some part of me still painfully does. He was a father figure, and for him I genuinely was someone he loved. I felt loved, in a twisted way. It was very confusing to me, because especially over time, as he became just a part of my history and no longer an active participant, I couldn't bring myself to hate him. Even through so much harm, I saw more and more through ny memories of how much struggle was within him. How tough it was on HIM, to realise he was indeed a bad person. The guilt. How that brought him to drink even more and spiral even further. How he couldn't be at peace with his past experiences and present emotions. It tore him, and everyone else around in the process. But he was worthy of love, not "deserving", but to who noticed his need, he was worthy. Not all of his parts were bad, that's why even now I have mixed feelings about the categorisation. But the amount of harm he caused surpassed a certain point. He was torn, between good, bad and the beyond. And that's what I think is the key to debating whether bad people can be loved. Becuase are they just bad, or are they evil? I think only one of those can achieve being loved and loving. We all have a bad side to ourselves, even more so depending on our morals and life philosophy. It would be hard to restrain from love, a human need, if we couldn't also love the bad.
In essence I believe the best way to view this is by focusing your energy to those who are good to you. They can be bad to everyone else, but whats most important is that they are good to you. Now it is up to you whetheror not you like who this person is to the rest of the world.
Who u love is a reflection of how much u love urself...
"We accept the love we think we deserve" from Perks of Being a Wallflower is what I always think of and it still rings true. In the book it was told to the main character when he couldn't understand why his sister was defending her physically abusive boyfriend. When I had low self esteem, I would let people into my life who showed time and time again that even if they loved me, they still weren't going to treat me the way I deserve to be. Now, I know I deserve better, and I get better.
I have two uncles who are both addicts and have been arrested many times for stealing etc. I love them and want them to get better, which doesnt mean I condome their actions
21:14 THISSS I've had so many people judge me for not wanting to kiss my boyfriend 😭 I have ocd so that and holding hands is still something I'm working towards being comfortable with.
dude u really helped me understand some issues with love ive experienced. "mommy & daddy issues" ive never resonated with those labels but when you broke down how we project those onto our partner. holy sht. man im grateful to be single rn like im lonely ash and want to love somebody but i could use the extra stored love for me, too.
Her makeup is always perfect
what about the bedroom so aesthethic
Ooooh, video could not come soon enough for me.
I'm processing my recent break-up right now (about a week after this video was posted), and I'm doing so without harboring and cultivating resentment for her, as well as doing some self-work while at it. It's a-friggin'-lot.
We were beautiful in paper. Looked so amazing together. We were practically the same person but had opposite traits where it mattered. I was the shy, soft-spoken guy (color-coded blue because I like colors. I'm so-so with blue), and she was the red-haired (legit, her hair was dyed red when I met her), outspoken girl. Courting her was absolutely difficult--we started as friends, and I even saw her almost date a "bad guy" during that time--it was a lot of work, and there were tons of push and pull, but it happened. We ended up dating each other and it was glorious. Until it wasn't. I was so exhausted being with her and I'm still, to this day, piecing together the words as to why. In part, it's because I still had a few relationship insecurities to get over, and yet I was so willing to learn that while I was with her. But alas, that space was not afforded to me with her.
Part of that courting phase was me giving up some of my boundaries just for her. Keeping her on a pedestal for as long as I possibly can. It was exhausting.
The difficult part of this was that she isn't entirely a "bad" person. Not by the definition set on this video. But I felt echoes of "bad" through her. Her past relationship making her overthink. Her absolute need to prioritize her self-care, leaving me in the dust. At some points it felt like she loved dating herself more than dating me, and I bought into it because of "therapy speak"--she always sounded so smart when she justified her actions. I couldn't hold her accountable because I didn't have the words she had. Because she's supposed to be up on that pedestal, right?
Not that I was any good, either. Again, I had an unwritten agreement to be her "forever simp" somewhere down the line. It's an old pattern I have and I expressed to her early on that I wanted to move away from it. And yet she loved having it. It just drained me.
Sometimes it felt like I was doing absolutely everything in my capacity just to keep up with her. For her, it was average effort.
It might not be that clear-cut in short words, and I don't want to sprinkle anymore assumption. But there WAS a reason why I felt so drained being with her at the end of the day. There WAS a reason why I left. I did, and now I want to perpetuate the push-and-pull again due to nostalgia. I'm mourning a friend that I lost. Someone I thought was someone I could love, but alas.
This video helped put the words "therapy speak" in my vocab. Still am struggling with defining her as a "bad" person. Part of the reason why I loved her was that she chose to heal from her past experiences. I wanted to help, too. But there was going to be an imbalance there, with how we both went about it.
i think these ideas of love are not always mutually-exclusive
my opinion on the matter is that love is purely emotional, you just feel it, and you cant exactly control how and when. therefore the question of "is it ok to love bad people?" would be the wrong question, considering there is no "wrong way" of feeling
if you feel it, its there. doesnt justify anything that you do or dont do, its just there.
Love is real. Having feelings/attitude of love do not need to be followed by anything else.
No amount of action will make someone love you, it may influence or reinforce.
Combining actions with mutual love creates a healthy relationship dynamic that *cultivates* it forward for as long as you live.
If you recognize the value in stepping away from “bad” people Its okay to love “bad” people.
“Love” isn’t hurting you or anyone else. The feelings you have for them are real and exist.
Attempting to shame yourself for being human will only tear you apart. Love them like you would anyone else and wish them well!
I read "it's okay to love bad apple"
hey don't forget the bad pears as well.
Only If you mean tohou's legendary bad apple, which you SHOULD love
touhou hijack
Bad Apple!!
I mean: the song kinda is about that. Well I think it's about BPD
The ad-roll is great. Not some BS vpn service or online course, but actually relevant to your audience and well presented service.
I feel like it’s ok to love flawed people. We all are. But if you date them with the expectation that they will change, you shouldn’t. NO ONE can make another person change, ONLY themselves. You can help them, but you CAN’T make them. So if you love them, ask yourself, would you still love them EVEN with the flaw?
this was so interesting and nuanced it made me think of “love” in so many ways id never thought of before, im at a moment in my life where ive decided to go full on hermit mode for a MINUTE to reaally try n sense n learn who it is that i am n who i wanna be/what i want my values to be/how i wanna relate to others. i constantly think of myself as “good” or doing whats best for me, but in that (n also this vid) ive realized ive hurt others or i rather i have withdrawn my “love” from others in order to do so. i feel like love is never a win/win, theres always some loss. in loving the ppl i used to i felt i lost my sense of self n became enmeshed w them, n in now kind of like collecting all my “love” towards modtly myself, i feel like ive lost a web of social support. either way, i feel like love involves someone getting hurt or a “bad act” as you say… but also mayb thats just my biased persoective bc i grew up as the scapegoat in a narcissistic family system dynamic so love/acceptance/being seen for me always equaled shame/guilt/pain.
what i have been finding in my solitude tho is that i value respect first n foremost, n also that what u give is what u get. so ive been trying to be respectful to others n also have no expectations of others, thats another thing. possessive love is full of expectations and conditions, i used to be all up in that n it only brought me disappointment n resentment n just bad vibes w ppl. idk, i feel happy in my aloneness bc i feel like not only am i building the boundaries of who i truly am by preserving my own self love, but in doing that it has been the easiest to be loving n respectful to others, its like fill your own cup, n then keep filling it bc itll overflow n spill to others
in terms of loving good/bad ppl, ig i see it like everyone deserves respect from the getgo, but if someone is disrespectful to your own boundaries, you have a right to return that energy or withdraw love from them for your own safety, at least thats my pov rn. as i said, i went no contact w my narc family n my last ex was very manipulative too so for me not loving bad people has been life SAVING in being able to change myself such that i would no longer stay/participate in those kind of relationships. but also nobodys perfect, and we all make mistakes…ig its all w nuance, you get to decide where the line is drawn between a couple of mistakes n then an abusive pattern, n its fair we all try to respect where each of us draws that line
i like the examples of being friends with bad people. i think the attitude that we should remove ourselves from people who we disagree with or are bad for some reason is unhelpful for everyone, it is like the personal life parallel to large scale media deplatforming. i am not just concerned about romantic relationships, but i feel that judging which relationships we should maintain based on an ethical standpoint is the same kind of dehumanization that tinder or social market value offers us today. you dont have a reaponsibility to remain friends or in love with a bad person, but why do so many people feel that it is problematic to see a human being instead of someones bad actions, and continue to care for them? its frustrating to me.
A person is not just who they are but what they do to other people. Some actions are too cruel to forgive.
Is it "kind" to love a monster more than the monster's victims?
"why do so many people feel that it is problematic to see a human being instead of someones bad actions"
I don't really see the distinction. What is a person except the accumulation of their actions? Now, defining someone by only a small subset of their actions is problematic, but sometimes that small subset of actions can overshadow everything else they've done.
If I have a friend who tells great jokes and laughs at mine, supports me when I need it and trusts me to do the same, celebrates their victories and mine with equal vigour, I will see them as the sum of all those small actions. But if one day I learn that they raped someone, all those small actions will be buried, and I wouldn't be able to see them as anything but a rapist.
On the flip side, if their 'bad' action wasn't rape, but something minor, like they stole candy at the cinema or told some off colour jokes, I wouldn't lose sight of the whole person, I would see them as still a largely good person that could hopefully grow past those misdeeds.
But overall, there are just some bad actions that will utterly alter the image we have of people. And while we might still be able to care for them, it makes it impossible to support them without becoming a worse person ourselves.
@@Serocco Does love have to be kind?
Either way, I think anyone and everyone is free to love who they want. I've been thinking on it, and to really see how firm I am in this, I thought, what kind of person would I despise the most? And I settled on the easy one, a child predator to work out my scenario of someone being in love with such a person.
And at the end of the day, I decided that love isn't always gentle, if you choose to allow yourself to love such a person, be prepared for the hurt. If you self is a good person, may this be the only consequence that you face, theoretically. Of doing what is right, even if it's not working in the favor of the one that you love. I don't love people, I love my morals and principles and myself and therefore those who I wish. Or something.
A song that I thought of while thinking about this ever since I saw Olivia post about this prompt a few months ago was Love is Everywhere, by Lasah.
Love is just is, it isn't a good or a bad thing, not in this imperfect world, we're just encouraged to pursue a happy, healthy love, though.
Do you get what I'm saying? Because I don't :(
@@sebrussell Your entire comment is fantastic and brings the proper nuance to this conversation. It is all about balancing what you find to be good and bad, and knowing that certain bad things greatly outweigh any good. We can support others and want to see them grow, but some people will drag you down and never actually want to grow. It can be impossible to support some people, and we should not be expected to out of "kindness" when it will have a negative impact on ourselves.
Because we have to care for ourselves too, people who continuously do bad things can fuck with your psyche. It's okay if they have bad qualities, we all do, but someone who's okay with hurting others is enough for me to disengage. I've been around people who I'd consider "bad", who fuck me over as much as they did with people. My brother was one of those people, everyone looked out for him, and he thanked you back by stealing your money or property. For years I've tried to excuse his actions, but the writings on the wall were very apparent from the jump. Whenever you doubt his intentions, he finds a way to exploit it.
As for Ethical reasons, I don't think it's dehumanizing. For me, when you do something wrong that fucks someone over, it doesn't sit right with my soul. All in all, it depends, because sometimes shit happens and people will do things they wouldn't normally would. I feel like if I stayed with someone who has done the most vile shit, it doesn't matter if I condemned them for it, I'm still there with them. Others and the friend might feel as if the action wasn't so bad for me since I'm still there with them.
To go off from the line when you said the “5 red flags” it reminded me of when I was talking with close friends about how when looking for a relationship either it be intimate or friendship that you shouldn’t have expectations like list or things if the sort, we mentioned that it’s better to have standards and self respect because sometimes sure some people are bad but sometimes we don’t know what’s the history and then it’s really just trying to be open around all the sensitivity of the topic
Like a lot of things, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. What people do for each other, and are willing to do for each other, is loving them. But at the same time, everyone does have inherent value, even people who’ve done terrible things deserve love. I’m still not 100% on what I believe, but what I believe right now at the very least is this:
There are many different kinds of love. It takes different forms for different people, and different forms when it comes to animals as well. Love can take the shape of hoping someone will be okay even though you don’t know them. You can love someone based on the value that yes, they are a person, and every person deserves love. At the same time though, that kind of love is much more disconnected. That doesn’t mean it’s meaningless though. When you see everyone through the lens of love, through the idea that everyone deserves it, it makes you appreciate others so much more. It helps to make you a kinder, more generous person, and makes it easier to trust others. Of course it’s possible that a viewpoint like that could be harmful in some way, you might trust someone that you otherwise wouldn’t have. But in my opinion, I would rather get hurt because I loved too much, than not love enough.
When it comes to the other viewpoint, loving someone for more personal reasons, like their actions or beliefs, is just as important. In the context of someone you’re close to, loving them takes a form closer to knowing them. Knowing them as in, really, knowing them. You know who they are, what’s important to them, their likes and dislikes, what they believe in. You’re choosing to love this person because of the person they are, rather than because they ARE a person in the first place. Their actions and beliefs changed your relationship from: “I love you because you are human” to: “I love you because you are important to me. I love you because of the deep relationship we have”
Both forms of love are important for different reasons. Honestly they are both so valid and important that it would make more sense if they both had their own word assigned to them. The definition of loving someone is confusing cuz the word “Love” is so broad. However, in some way, love is a choice in both definitions. You CHOOSE to love everyone. You CHOOSE to love those close to you. The choice to love is where the meaning really comes from. If you wholeheartedly believe that everyone deserves love, then the love you have for everyone is real. Just saying that you love everyone but not actually committing to feeling love for everyone, makes that form of love superficial, or even manipulative. You have to choose everyday to love those close to you, just like you choose to love everyone. Your relationship with strangers and your relationship with those close to you are very very different, but in both scenarios, the love you feel is very real, and very valid.
So yes, it is okay to love bad people, as long as you’re choosing to love them in a way that is, well, rational. Say there’s a friend that you love deeply. One day, they commit a murder. If you choose to continue loving that friend because of your relation to them, because of the person inside them that you know and care about, then I’d say that’s completely rational. That doesn’t mean you think what they did is okay, it just means that you really do love them, you love them so much that you’re willing to move on from something horrible they did. Of course, if you continue to love them because you like that they murdered someone, then that would be, well it would be bad. Controversial opinion: murder, is bad.
On the other side of things, if you choose to love a murderer that you don’t have any connection to, then for that to be a rational kind of love, you would be loving them simply because of your belief that everyone deserves love, despite the awful things they may have done.
This was another amazing video, thank you Olivia! Remember to tell your friends that you love them.
This reminded me of a valuable ted talk titled something like “love begins when we stop choosing who deserves it”
0:19 Aww, thanks. But you don't love me, you love your idea of me. It's better if we just move on.
Love truly is complicated. My first love outed me and made me feel very ostracised, very sad and upset for years. But now she's one of my greatest friends, and even in the years that I've resented her, I've loved her dearly. She mightve been a bad person in my mind, but she wasn't that in my heart.
Is not okay to love bad people, we all should hold each other accountable for our bad actions.
To love is to hold our loved ones accountable. Love isn't something that is good or bad, I think. It never can be, it just is. Your actions is something else though.
Love doesn't mean to give up your principles and morals though.
what is considered a "bad" person is "good" to the others, the world is not black and white, otherwise, you would find the entire zoo of carnivore mammals in jail among the bulls and horses that didn't "behave"
To agree with the respone above, I love multiple "bad people" in my life. I love them for the good aspects the make up, for the care they have given to me, and for the pain they suffered and then unfortunately passed to others. My love for them come with the hope they see the evil in their actions, the sources they came from, and how to be better people. No one deserves to be abandoned from love because of one bad action, quite often its in love they are given the opportunity to change.
@@collin6885 To me, it isn't about whether or not they deserve it, it's simply, I love you. That is all.
When I think of a bad person, in this prompt I think of a type of person I'd hold great contempt for, and I settled for a child predator to see if I could maintain my thoughts as strongly as I do even for someone I consider a monster. And when it comes down to it's not a matter of whether or not they deserve it, the answer is yes.
There is no morals tied down inherently with emotions, which is why I don't mind, to put it simply.
Let's take for example the mothers that love their sons, their babies, even if they'd done the most evilest of shit known to man kind. I wouldn't hold contempt towards them for loving these predators, murderers, evil-doers, but what they do with this love? Destroying evidence, invalidating the victims, etc, that's wrong. That's disgusting. But you aren't bad simply for the act of loving another.
Maybe you can not compare parental love to romantic affections for these types of people, but I'm sure you guys can get what I mean.
@@adamas5925 i haven't watched the video yet but this is so weird cuz i just saw you under the comment section of a sad boyz episode. sorry this is so random 😭 also i really agree with your take
OLIVIA, YOU'RE SUCH AN INTELLIGENT WOMAN. IT'S A BLESSING TO KNOW YOU.
Love the videos
This is a dangerously great topic! Its deep and dark yet truthful and insightful on the reality of love , connection and family. Thank you again for putting this up together and for making incredible points and details ! Love this one you go girl 💗😊
new olisunvia video essay dropped, its time to drink coffee and listen 💗💗
I feel that love is alot more intense and complicated than just intense respect. The quote you had there about 'love being the realisation that something other than oneself is real', really resonated. If you've ever been deeply deeply in love with someone, you will know that it's not just a feeling, it's like a whole shift in your reality. A whole experience. Here i'm talking about romantic love, which I know isn't something that everyone experiences. The romantic love that I personally have experienced is so so different to the love that I have for freinds and family, or that which people describe having for family or pets or freinds. It almost blinds you in a way to completely outweigh a persons flaws because you have such an intense appreciation, or love, for this person. You see all of their traits (positives and negatives) as just part of them. It really is the realisation that you are not the only thing who is real. Everything else in our world becomes so clear and just easier to appreciate, even once it ends. This is my experience with being in love, of course not everyone will experience everything the same (I'm neurotypical and a lesbian so obviously my experience isn't universal) but this is what I think of when someone is talking about "love".
Everyone cheers when oliSUNvia uploads
Yesss I love the quote about the evil parts of other people - i feel comfortable around my partner in a way I’ve never felt around other people because we both easily express emotions like anger and resentment and “bad” and “evil” thoughts and feelings in general and it makes me feel so comforted and safe because I know whatever horrible things I say like ranting about people for example, he still sees me as a whole person. It’s hard to give examples to this though….I want to emphasize we don’t bully each other or anything, and we don’t spend our whole time ranting and complaining, just that when we do, it’s a fun time that ends in laughter and comfort.
I want to share a story, about two friends of mine.
I had a friend, a trans man that was deply feminist and very intense. And I have a friend, a transphobic and antisemitistic guy who idealized Soviet Union, totally oposite guys, am I right? Well, once in facebook I found that the second guy tag the first guy and they were... hanging out like buddies. I was aboslutelly surprised about that fact and I even ask them "Hey, so you are totally ok with the way the other is, right?" What I hear in response is dificult to sumarized, but in a nutshell: They meet eachother in a music shop, the second guy even confess to him once but becuase he was passing through a difficult time on his life. In responde, they just keep going, they talked with property, chared ideas and experiences, discoveries and debate... and they are doing well. I was surprised but I´m also happy. Those guys literally bring my hope for humanity back.
this is a clear example of how you can go on philosophical tangents until crafting a seemingly fair argument, but when just think about it with common sense it doesn't make any sense, aka false premises
new video on canada day lets go man, much support