Just wanted to say that I'm humbled by all the kind comments. I always have a great time hanging out with Drach, and the quality of the questions was superb. It was a really fun afternoon for me.
Mr. Parshall you are awesome! Thanks for doing these presentations for us. shattered sword is one of my favorite books. Your writing style suits me well. Thanks again!
I'm a long time viewer of Drach and you are by far my favorite interview he has done. Thank you for all of the wonderful works you have done and continue to produce, and most of all that you for being a friend of the channel.
As a Naval history fan I love seeing these discussions. As a Navy veteran I love hearing the indepth breakdown of these battles from such knowledgeable people.
the initial location of Point Luck is indeed a very informative piece of information, salute to Drachinifel and the guest speaker for the research work on the naval history !
Thank you both for such awesome content. There are thousands of people who are listening to every word of this and picturing everything you guys are saying. This is such an awesome community. Best collaboration to date.
This was fantastic. As an American male who has read book after book on the carrier battles in my 50 years, after starting out wearing out the pages of my parents WW2 encyclopedia before the age of ten, I still learned much in this discussion. Thanks to both of you.
Same here - I thought *yawn* another discussion on Midway, I've read all the books, this will be dreary. I was wrong (as my wife occasionally tells me I am!).
Long, but the investigators of this very informative material were wonderful. Thorough, responsible, good speakers, interresting, with humor. Thank you.
Same, had it on my wishlist for over a decade after watching earlier lecture's by John on the 70th of Midway & his lecture about Kursk. As an engineer I do not love math at all, but I love what it can show.
Mr. Parshall is an absolutely amazing person. He has helped me with research before and has my utmost respect. Not only educated, but a very courteous man.
What a great follow up programme to the first Shattered Sword presentation by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully. Drach & Jon really do complement each other in their presentation styles and the new perspectives on the Battle of Midway were both educational and engrossing. The programme reinforced that Carrier Doctrine and all of the associated technologies were still on a steep development curve in June 1942 and mistakes were bound to happen on both sides.
One of the most important aircraft of the war at least from the naval perspective would be the PBY Catalina IMO. A Catalina spotted the Japanese carriers off Midway, a Catalina spotted Bismarck. Catalinas also made a difference in the pilot quality situation as they rescued many aviators that ended up in the water. Add to that their contribution to hunting U-boats in the Atlantic as well as roles such as long range transport supplying the forward bases in the Pacific. An aircraft that did as much to win the war as almost any other that I can think of.
Indeed. Those things stuck around for a long time, because they did one job and did it so well it was hard to replace. In fact, i don't think it has ever been replaced. Helicopters filled the niche, but they are fuel hungry.
The piece of film during operation ten-go as the Japanese sailor watches as a Catalina comes and picks up a downed airman in the middle of the battle said volumes about the différance in attitudes between Japan and America.to their people and the conduct of the war.it also goes a little to the explanation of why Japan wore 2 nukes for their trouble when they threatened to fight to the last human life.
@@jeromethiel4323 Actually, as the OP pointed out, the PBY was a multi-role aircraft: long range patrol/recon, air-sea rescue, transport for areas without runways...it was eventually replaced in all these roles, but by multiple aircraft. Some are still around as water bombers.
There were also the "Black Cats" operating very long flights in the South Pacific. Both USN and RAAF operated them. They were doing a lot of minelaying in the Japanese operating area.
@@rackstraw I get you. What i meant by doing one job and doing it well was simply a reference to fixed wing, water land able craft. They had range, they had carry capacity, and they had the ability to land and take off from water. To me those make a singularly great aircraft, as you said, capable of doing multiple roles well. But in my mind, that role was a seaplane. So when i said single role, i meant seaplane, not that it wasn't capable of doing multiple thing, just that it was a REALLY good seaplane.
This was a fantastic discussion. Many thanks to Mr. Parshall and Drach. I also want to add a personal note. Listening Mr. Parshall and Drach talk about which books and authors they enjoyed when they were children brought me back to my childhood. One of the first authors of World War II books I enjoyed was Walter Lord. As a boy I read Incredible Victory and Day of Infamy. I could not put them down. In fact, within the last year I re-read each. Such a good writer, yet I am saddened that so few people know of his works. He was a master researcher and writer. His interviews of the men, both Japanese and American, who were present, made two battles come to life. Touching that he was remembered in this video. Good job by both you.
Excellent job guys! Thank you both for everything you do! Thanks for hanging out with Seth and Captain Toto as well! Keep up the great educational work we all are always excited to see you both!
One of the best things about living in modern times (other than that absence of things like cave bears, the Spanish inquisition and smallpox) is being able to listen to experts like Drachfinel and Johnathan Parshal talking. Superb. I bought Shattered Sword recently by the way. Fascinating.
Parshall is a rock star . Unmatched scholarship on the subject. Truly, as a Harvard natsec fellow and Masters grad at HKS- never did do war college at Navy, I think I can say John has simply mastered his sphere. Awesome that he did this interview. Keep writing those great books Parshall.
This is so expansive that it really works well a second and third time through, especially as my own familiarity with the material has been increasing. Will probably revisit next year as well. Thanks again, fellas!
Many, many thanks to Jon and Drachinifel for doing this. It is always informative and a pleasure listening to Mr Parshall. Keep on making this great content.
"Shattered Sword" is my favorite book on Midway. Symonds book a close second. But Parshalls description of the Japanese within the bowels of the wrecked carriers are the images that stay with me the most. ...with Dick Best plastering the Akagi with that 1000 pounder a very close second.
This video was simply so amazing, the humble like a viewer can put up on UA-cam is a gigantic understatement to the appreciation I have for you both. Thank you.
Takes me multiple days to have the time to listen to these long discussions but they are worth every minute. Fascinating and informative far beyond what I have found on most other channels. Great job and more please!
A year late, but I don't think I would want to be in a Catalina during daylight at low altitude searching for a carrier task group. I'd be afraid that by the time we spotted it, we'd have bandits swarming from above, and would soon be in the drink. At high altitude, we're perhaps less effective at spotting targets, but at least might have a chance of surviving the mission if we do. I guess a PBY and crew were expendable.🤷♀️ Meanwhile, great stuff here. Thank you! No. I mean, I probably found this channel 8 or 10 months ago and have enjoyed every episode. It is an absolute joy listening to you all. Honestly, can't get enough. Thank you so much for the fine education. 😁
The only reason I didn't watch this in one fell swoop was the fact that I didn't have three solid hours available at the time I started watching. But once the time was available, I couldn't stop watching. Fascinating, brilliant, authoritative, incisive, relentlessly on-point, and couldn't have been clearer if the events described had been filmed. Thanks, Jon Parshall, for your generous contribution of your time and expertise, and - as always - thanks Drach for providing such superb content.
On the notion of Saratoga at Midway: From what I've puzzled out, it IS theoretically possible IF Nimitz decides on May 22nd that he NEEDS Saratoga. But very specific orders need to happen: There are four factors involved in getting Saratoga into the battle: Aircraft, pilots, escorts, and time. All of these factors must come together to get Saratoga to Point Luck by the afternoon of June 2nd. Aircraft: Saratoga has a detachment of VF-2 assigned and waiting at NAS San Diego. This includes 13 F4F-4s and 1 F4F-7. Also at San Diego are 23 SBDs of Scouting Three. To fill out the rest of the air group, we will not countermand any of Rear Admiral Noyes' directives for reorganizing Yorktown's air group. We're not just trying to swap Saratoga for Yorktown. This means we still have half a squadron of F4F-4s, a squadron of SBDs, and a torpedo squadron left to find. Fortunately, Carrier Air Support Unit-1 on Oahu has roughly enough F4F-4s and SBDs to fill our needs. Unfortunately, there are not enough TBDs in the islands to give us a full strength Torpedo squadron even if we await taking the surviving Devastators from VT-5. There is; however, the second half of Torpedo Eight arriving at Pearl aboard the transport Hammondsport on the 29th of May, with 20 TBFs. 6 of these were sent to Midway on June 1st. The other 14 can probably be ready to fly out to Sara by noon of the 31st. This gives us a full complement of aircraft. Pilots: The VF-2 attachment is manned by 8 veteran pilots and 6 recent graduates of ACTG. VS-3 is fully manned. The TBFs are fully manned. They are green, but they are also the only available crews rated on the TBFs. This cannot be helped. As for the rest of the aircrews, we will need pilots for the rest of the fighters and our second unit of SBDs. we could lift them from the arriving VF-5, VF-72, and VS-5 but not preferable. Fortunately, there is another source of veteran pilots. Unfortunately, they are heading for San Diego, not Pearl Harbor. The transports George F. Elliott and Barnett, accompanied by the heavy cruiser Chester should be redirected to Pearl Harbor. Historically, this force reached San Diego on June 2. We can have it in Pearl by the 30th at latest. We will take the available 11 pilots from VF-2 that fought at Coral Sea along with 2 VS-2 pilots who were transferring to fighters anyway. We ALSO can completely rebuild VB-2 and should do so. Therefore, pilots are tricky, but not an insurmountable problem. Escorts: Saratoga will need an escort group. We have already rerouted USS Chester to Pearl Harbor. The AA CL USS San Diego is in San Diego and ready to go. Fairly certain we can shake loose about four DDs in time and proceeding independently to Pearl at best sustained speed. Time. May 22 is when AF is confirmed as Midway. It is ALSO the day Saratoga leaves Puget Sound. Waiting until May 25th when the Japanese timetable is confirmed, is too late. The margin of timing is too closet make it in time for the battle. So: May 22nd, VF-2 and VB-2 reconstituted, VS-3, back half of VT-8.
See my post about having John Lundstrom answer airplane and air group questions. Jon Parshall replied to it. I then replied to his reply and listed my alternate history of how to place pilots and planes on four carriers. I based my comment on two factors having to be changed. One being that the Lexington survivors go to Pearl Harbor and not San Diego just as you have said. The other is that the Saratoga would have had to sail from San Diego by noon on May 26. As far as escorts, I also agree that a few DDs and the USS San Diego could have escorted her to Pearl. Also, the Saratoga group would be commanded by R.Adm. Fitch. All the pilot assignments are listed in general. My scenario has Yorktown and Saratoga reach the area NE of Midway on June 3.
@@robertdendooven7258 Fairly the same but some things I see differently are that at Coral Sea, the performance of the TBDs was not that bad. Of course, VT-5 and VT-2 were probably the best Torpedo Squadrons in the fleet but prior to Midway, a combined threat package of Dive Bombers and Torpedo planes would still be seen as the ideal method of attack. So, I'd still say that the torpedo squadrons are going. Also, VT-8's Commander Waldron is really the best squadron commander on the ship. (If you really want 'Good Hornet' to show up, have Stanhope Ring get left behind at Pearl with a broken bird. Waldron is ranking Squadron Commander and takes over as CAG in Ring's absence. Thereupon Waldron takes Hornet's ENTIRE package into Kido Butai. The question is if VB-8 and VS-8 can hit anything. (They've only been flying the SBD since Mid-March) On the matter of fighters: Remember that VF3/42 is the best formation the US carriers have simply because VF-42 has relevant combat experience, while Thach and his pilots knew the Wildcat-4. VF-8, VF-5, and VF-72 are all untested. The survivors of VF-2 are your only other blooded fighter pilots. If you reintegrate them with the half squadron aboard Saratoga, you have a squadron with similar strengths to Thach's VF-3/42 (I'm not forgetting VF-6. They're not quite as bad off as 5, 8, and 72 but haven't had the experience that VF-2 and VF-42 did.) As for the timing, my original thoughts had been for Saratoga to haul ass out to Pearl from San Diego on the 25th at top speed, just barely making it and I suppose it could still work but it's a tight margin. Still, I think we're agreed that while requiring some dedicated work to organize, the job is doable if Nimitz felt he really needed the extra deck.
This is another wonderful offering. I've never been very interested in military, much less naval, history, beyond knowing that failure to understand them leads to misunderstanding the political and geopolitical stuff [my main interest]. These Drachinifel videos are insightful in areas that were not my chief interest. One exchange here was particularly important. The participants in an action may not be exaggerating, or the like, just not able to comprehend the big picture. Some of my ancestors, who harried the Redcoats back to Boston from Concord, undoubtedly had different perceptions of both the "big picture" and the immediate one than did the Redcoat Tommy being sniped at from every fence and grove on the forced retreat. While studying political history has given me some insight, the overwhelming importance of technology in naval warfare has been made abundantly clear in these videos.
I've been a naval fanatic since I was a teen in the sixties. I cut my teeth with Incredible Victory and Fuchida's Midway...must have read them both a dozen times. Ironically, I started realizing something was rotten in Denmark (or Tokyo) when I started wargaming- both board and computer. Playing as the Japanese, with the traditional morning strike on Midway was always extremely difficult. Your outnumbered, out scouted, and on the horns of a dilemma with bad intelligence. Shattered Sword was an eye opening conformation of my suspicions. Thank you both for these podcasts. (Drachs....on a similar vein, kudos on destroying my decades old perceptions of the "unsinkable" Bismark! 🙃)
Victory at Sea....still makes me sit up at the opening music. I started because neighbors, teachers and mentors were veterans of the Pacific War. A friend's father had scale models of all the WWII US carrier planes. This was in the 60s, I was taking notes...need to learn about these things. Shattered Sword was a book I have been waiting for, and I did not know it.
A wonderful program, thank you! I rank it for Information along with my favorite, the three part Pearl Harbor salvage videos, and for enjoyment, with the second Russian Pacific squadron saga
So glad I was able to enjoy the whole thing at work today!!! Great questions and analysis!!! As the son of a USS Phelps sailor that was at Midway, Ill never pass up an opportunity to hear and learn more about it!!
much like the comment Drach read about Jon Parshall and Battle 360. it's what got me interested in WW 2, specially the naval side of things. so thank you Mr. Parshall for the effort you've put into your research. now I'm gonna have to get your book because to this day I haven't been able to get my hands on any ww2 books
Greetings from Japan. I would say this guy is well versed in the Japanese perspective, up to about 2:00:00 where I am at, including the domestic cover-up of the defeat. Listening at 1.5x.
I had the pleasure of a few back and forth emails with John for my 'Air Operations at the battle of Midway' video. I consider him and Shattered Sword to be the difinitive sources on the battle.
I agree only if it had spotted all FOUR Japanese carriers in the same group instead of just the two it did report. The question of where the other two carriers are probably caused the Hornet's air group's flight to nowhere.
For me the PBY is one of the most important planes of the whole war. Did a lot of very important stuff some of which was behind the scenes and largely unsung.
@@robertdendooven7258 The American Admirals were almost certain the IJN carriers would be in two groups of two separated to increase their fighting range. They were organised as such, had appeared in that way at Coral Sea and that’s how the American’s were organised too, so it made sense to them. But Mitscher, about to get a serious promotion, took that surmise as firm orders to hunt for both groups, over any tactical instincts. By not informing his squadron leaders only their group commander he avoided any backchat on deck, but not mutiny in the air. Its hard to imagine his after action report if Waldron had brought VT-8 back alive. The risk of having 4 carriers together without a dozen heavy cruiser’s worth of AA fire near them, also shows serious IJN over-confidence in the secrecy of their attack, but after the success of Pearl who would doubt that. Even if all the Battleships had been with them, you can bet they’d be rigged for the bombardment of Midway not Kantai Kessen.
I really love the discussion at the beginning, focusing on the paper by Bongers and Torres. From what I can see, this strongly vindicates Nimitz's planning and views going into the battle: that the carrier force he could deploy was sufficient to defeat or even destroy the anticipated Japanese force *as long as* his forces were in a favorable position to strike first, a situation he knew he was in a position to create with the advantage provided by HYPO's code-breaking. In particular, Bongers' and Torres' conclusion that the battle was essentially decided as soon as Nagumo launched the early-morning attack on Midway lines up almost exactly with what Nimitz and his planners had in mind. They determined that there would be a window of opportunity to strike Nagumo's carriers while they were still committed to recovering that strike and vulnerable as a result. The Japanese were also aware on at least some level that Nagumo would be vulnerable if he had to deal with both Midway and an American carrier force at the same time, but simply assumed that wouldn't happen since they expected to have the element of surprise and that it would take any American forces 2-3 days to sail from Pearl Harbor to Midway. A good battle plan is one that provides the forces to succeed in your expected scenario, and also some margin of error in case things don't go as planned. In this case, I would consider the 4 vs 3 scenario with "good Hornet" as the "middle case" scenario for what Nimitz could expect (he obviously has every right to expect that his carrier commanders will follow orders and send their air groups where they're supposed to). And sure enough, the model suggests that scenario would have been a clean sweep U.S. victory. Even with a lot of things not going as planned ("bad Hornet", plus the ineffectiveness of the Midway planes and submarines, plus Enterprise's scattered launch), the U.S. forces still accomplished a crushing victory in a sub-optimal scenario, because the main underlying assumptions of Nimitz's plan still held up. The American carriers could indeed knock out one Japanese carrier with one dive-bomber squadron each - Enterprise's two squadrons took out Kaga and Akagi (albeit with a very lopsided distribution of attacks), one Yorktown squadron sank Soryu, and a composite group of about 1 and a half squadrons sank Hiryu later on. Nimitz recognized that he had the information to bring about a favorable battle scenario for his carrier forces, and was willing to push his chips in when he felt the odds were in his favor.
I've always thought Japan's attack on Midway was, grossly speaking, an attempt to repeat the Pearl Harbor results. "A big surprise strike, another big victory." Great video.
What a treasure JP is and by the same token, what a loss not having Jim Hornfischer with us. I always regret not having had the chance to speak with him when I had it. You're a very lucky man brother.
@@jonathanparshall5019 I should have known that and regret that I did not. He seemed like a man who's brain was only outsized by his heart. I do know what is like to lose friends so, when I offer my condolences, I sincerely mean it. Thank you for the fast reply (both in fact). Raise a CINCPAC to your friend this evening, who is now probably conversing with those men he wrote about.
@@arnie24070127 On of my fondest memories of Jim was when he came to visit a few years ago on his way to a funeral down in Iowa. We were sittin' in my study, sippin' a little bourbon, and my phone goes off. I have a custom ringtone, which I crafted from the first ten seconds or so of a Depeche Mode song called "World in My Eyes." Jim immediately reaches for his own phone, and says, "Hold on, someone's calling me!" When I show him that it's *my* phone ringing, and that we *both* have the same Depeche Mode ringtone, he just tilts his head back and lets out this huge laugh. It was definitely a "brothers of different mothers" kind of moment! He was a great guy, huge heart, very, very smart, and a tremendous historian. Cancer sucks.
It's hardly gonna be better than this! -History really shows how intel' and accaountability works in an civilized democratic environment, testet by war. Thats why totalitary systems always fails in the end.. Keep up the supreme work!
As I recall, PBY Catalina pilot Ens. Gaylord Probst had the only successul USN aerial torpedo attack of the battle when he hit the tanker Akebono Maru .
I always said that SAR was an extremely important factor in the war. To add to the point you guys made, a WW2 airplane can be built within hours at peak production, while a pilot takes many months to train.
I don't know why but this channel is one of the best ways for me to fall asleep 😂 seriously! Also I was not really deep into naval history until I came across your content and now I love it. Thank you for giving me more highly "useful" irl information to fill the vacuum between my ears
I was 7 in 1942 and don't remember hearing about it then. I saw the love movie with a few scenes of the battle recreated and loved it. I have read Shattered Sword, Black Shoe Admiral and am reading Nimitz. I met them all on this channel. Dear Drach, come to Corpus Christi. If the market is up I will buy you a steak dinner and some Texas clothing. If the market is still crashing downward I will buy you a hot dog or a hamburger. Thanks so much for these great informative programs. Sam Dunnam,, Corpus Christi, TX. Addendum" the cursor jumps all over the screen during the presentation and the video and sound are slightly out of sync.
I could listen to Jon all day long, he's such a great talker! I'll have to rewatch those Battle 360 videos, now knowing he was involved in them. Next on the shopping list - Shattered Sword!
Great stuff. Thanks for the in depth info and perspectives. I often visit Yamamoto's gravesite which is right down the road from me at Tama cemetery. His plot is fairly neglected, surprisingly. Also, I was a bit shocked to learn that many of my Japanese students didn't know who he was. I should add that in comparison to the gravesite of Robert K Reichhauer (Princeton), Yamamoto's is well-cared for. Reischauer's is so neglected that there are (now very large) trees growing out of the small singular plot. Many refer to him as the first American of WWII as he was killed in the bombing of Shanghai in 1937. Cheers from Tokyo.
A blessed and most happy Indipendace day "2022' to the greatest generation, may we never forget them and what they did for our freedoms.... Happy 4th of July .
80 years ago, amazing. 2022 is to 1942, as 1942 is to 1862 and the American Civil War, 80 years. Can't believe how time is, goes so quick when I was a kid I remember these men all being alive.
A good friends father was on the Yorktown when it sank and but survived to live to his nineties. As a young sailor he worked in many areas of the ship, including the engine room to manning the weapons. He also worked on clearing and repairing damage done in fighting leading up to the battle of midway. He indicated the repairs were just a stop gap at best. They did what they could do with the mess they had on their hands. During the many years I was friends with him we spoke many times about what happened yet even today I really enjoy hearing stories
Coral sea was a cluster f of air reconnaissance, stacking the deck and air cover. Some of the destroyer that pulled survivors of the Lexington out of the water arrived back at Pearl days before Yorktown. Those days after were spent on the hill at COMPACFLT evaluating the battle. Heads of deck crews, mechanics, armorers and electronic operators as well as reconnaissance and all squadrons were question on their views and what could be improved on. Officers and crews were evaluated for efficiency. And then all reports were evaluated by Nimitz, Halsey, Spruance, Fletcher and all captains commanding the three carriers at Midway.
Dispitebeing a subscriber I just stumbled onto this video. I've read Shattered Sword (and would love a signature! : ) ) I've listened to this while working and loved it and still learned some wonderful finer points on the battle and carrier actions and procedures in the pacific. Bravo!
This conversation was amazing. I was happy to hear Mr Parshall likes Armoured Carrier channel. I also have to admit to looking over at my copy of Shattered Sword and grinning.
Just wanted to say that I'm humbled by all the kind comments. I always have a great time hanging out with Drach, and the quality of the questions was superb. It was a really fun afternoon for me.
Mr. Parshall you are awesome! Thanks for doing these presentations for us. shattered sword is one of my favorite books. Your writing style suits me well. Thanks again!
I'm a long time viewer of Drach and you are by far my favorite interview he has done. Thank you for all of the wonderful works you have done and continue to produce, and most of all that you for being a friend of the channel.
Thank you for your presentations on this channel.
As a Naval history fan I love seeing these discussions. As a Navy veteran I love hearing the indepth breakdown of these battles from such knowledgeable people.
You are legend. The two of you going back and forth is literally amazing!
Please bring Mr. Parshall around more often, he is an absolute treat. Thanks, Drach, for the content. It was amazing
the initial location of Point Luck is indeed a very informative piece of information, salute to Drachinifel and the guest speaker for the research work on the naval history !
Thank you both for such awesome content. There are thousands of people who are listening to every word of this and picturing everything you guys are saying. This is such an awesome community. Best collaboration to date.
This was fantastic. As an American male who has read book after book on the carrier battles in my 50 years, after starting out wearing out the pages of my parents WW2 encyclopedia before the age of ten, I still learned much in this discussion. Thanks to both of you.
Same here - I thought *yawn* another discussion on Midway, I've read all the books, this will be dreary. I was wrong (as my wife occasionally tells me I am!).
Long, but the investigators of this very informative material were wonderful. Thorough, responsible, good speakers, interresting, with humor. Thank you.
Love to see Mr Parshall again excellent discussion and once again thanks to him for his contribution to Battle 360 for starting my love of WW2 history
John Parshall is amazing. I loved reading Shattered Sword! I bought a copy last year after seeing him on your channel last time.
Same, had it on my wishlist for over a decade after watching earlier lecture's by John on the 70th of Midway & his lecture about Kursk. As an engineer I do not love math at all, but I love what it can show.
There could be a 50 hour set of these discussions, and I would listen to every minute. You have truly spoiled us!
UA-cam auto-play brings it back it every now and again; it really bears repeated listening
Mr. Parshall is an absolutely amazing person. He has helped me with research before and has my utmost respect. Not only educated, but a very courteous man.
Two days worth of listening and not a minute wasted. THANK YOU!
What a great follow up programme to the first Shattered Sword presentation by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully. Drach & Jon really do complement each other in their presentation styles and the new perspectives on the Battle of Midway were both educational and engrossing. The programme reinforced that Carrier Doctrine and all of the associated technologies were still on a steep development curve in June 1942 and mistakes were bound to happen on both sides.
One of the most important aircraft of the war at least from the naval perspective would be the PBY Catalina IMO. A Catalina spotted the Japanese carriers off Midway, a Catalina spotted Bismarck. Catalinas also made a difference in the pilot quality situation as they rescued many aviators that ended up in the water. Add to that their contribution to hunting U-boats in the Atlantic as well as roles such as long range transport supplying the forward bases in the Pacific. An aircraft that did as much to win the war as almost any other that I can think of.
Indeed. Those things stuck around for a long time, because they did one job and did it so well it was hard to replace. In fact, i don't think it has ever been replaced. Helicopters filled the niche, but they are fuel hungry.
The piece of film during operation ten-go as the Japanese sailor watches as a Catalina comes and picks up a downed airman in the middle of the battle said volumes about the différance in attitudes between Japan and America.to their people and the conduct of the war.it also goes a little to the explanation of why Japan wore 2 nukes for their trouble when they threatened to fight to the last human life.
@@jeromethiel4323 Actually, as the OP pointed out, the PBY was a multi-role aircraft: long range patrol/recon, air-sea rescue, transport for areas without runways...it was eventually replaced in all these roles, but by multiple aircraft. Some are still around as water bombers.
There were also the "Black Cats" operating very long flights in the South Pacific. Both USN and RAAF operated them. They were doing a lot of minelaying in the Japanese operating area.
@@rackstraw I get you. What i meant by doing one job and doing it well was simply a reference to fixed wing, water land able craft. They had range, they had carry capacity, and they had the ability to land and take off from water.
To me those make a singularly great aircraft, as you said, capable of doing multiple roles well. But in my mind, that role was a seaplane.
So when i said single role, i meant seaplane, not that it wasn't capable of doing multiple thing, just that it was a REALLY good seaplane.
This was a fantastic discussion. Many thanks to Mr. Parshall and Drach. I also want to add a personal note. Listening Mr. Parshall and Drach talk about which books and authors they enjoyed when they were children brought me back to my childhood. One of the first authors of World War II books I enjoyed was Walter Lord. As a boy I read Incredible Victory and Day of Infamy. I could not put them down. In fact, within the last year I re-read each. Such a good writer, yet I am saddened that so few people know of his works. He was a master researcher and writer. His interviews of the men, both Japanese and American, who were present, made two battles come to life. Touching that he was remembered in this video. Good job by both you.
Wow - so many of the questions reflect my own musings and Mr. Parshall's answers so satisfying - I'm in heaven!
This is the best guest you've ever had. Ignoring the intelligence or expertise he's really good at presenting.
Thank you both for a fantastic presentation.
This is probably the greatest live stream you’ve ever done. John Parshall makes everything better.
agree
😊.
Ditto
Lplm
Is like talking to Google Search or Wikipedia.
This podcast is fabulous - thank you to infinity.
Excellent job guys! Thank you both for everything you do! Thanks for hanging out with Seth and Captain Toto as well! Keep up the great educational work we all are always excited to see you both!
This live stream was excellent. Thank you both for all the knowledge!
One of the best things about living in modern times (other than that absence of things like cave bears, the Spanish inquisition and smallpox) is being able to listen to experts like Drachfinel and Johnathan Parshal talking. Superb.
I bought Shattered Sword recently by the way. Fascinating.
Parshall is a rock star . Unmatched scholarship on the subject. Truly, as a Harvard natsec fellow and Masters grad at HKS- never did do war college at Navy, I think I can say John has simply mastered his sphere. Awesome that he did this interview. Keep writing those great books Parshall.
This is so expansive that it really works well a second and third time through, especially as my own familiarity with the material has been increasing. Will probably revisit next year as well. Thanks again, fellas!
Love everything Mr. Parshall has done. Excellent stream.
Thank you very much! A lot of people really enjoyed this and will share the knowledge!
Always a pleasure to listen to John Parshall on the topic of Midway!
AWESOME, didnt know jon had a part in battle 360. Cheers for involvement in a show that i loved and still watch to this day
Many, many thanks to Jon and Drachinifel for doing this. It is always informative and a pleasure listening to Mr Parshall. Keep on making this great content.
"Shattered Sword" is my favorite book on Midway. Symonds book a close second. But Parshalls description of the Japanese within the bowels of the wrecked carriers are the images that stay with me the most.
...with Dick Best plastering the Akagi with that 1000 pounder a very close second.
Thanks again to both of you for the wonderful collaboration.
This video was simply so amazing, the humble like a viewer can put up on UA-cam is a gigantic understatement to the appreciation I have for you both. Thank you.
Your the best naval historian that I have found on you tube love the colabs and keep up the great work
Takes me multiple days to have the time to listen to these long discussions but they are worth every minute. Fascinating and informative far beyond what I have found on most other channels. Great job and more please!
fantastically great and extremely interesting. Thank you both sharing a history lesson with personality! BZ
This was, hands-down, the best Q&A I have ever heard. Thank you both, sirs.
Thank you very much for this amazing exchange! So thorough and detailed! It is three hours long, but no idle minute at all.😀
A year late, but I don't think I would want to be in a Catalina during daylight at low altitude searching for a carrier task group. I'd be afraid that by the time we spotted it, we'd have bandits swarming from above, and would soon be in the drink.
At high altitude, we're perhaps less effective at spotting targets, but at least might have a chance of surviving the mission if we do. I guess a PBY and crew were expendable.🤷♀️
Meanwhile, great stuff here. Thank you!
No. I mean, I probably found this channel 8 or 10 months ago and have enjoyed every episode. It is an absolute joy listening to you all. Honestly, can't get enough. Thank you so much for the fine education. 😁
The only reason I didn't watch this in one fell swoop was the fact that I didn't have three solid hours available at the time I started watching. But once the time was available, I couldn't stop watching. Fascinating, brilliant, authoritative, incisive, relentlessly on-point, and couldn't have been clearer if the events described had been filmed. Thanks, Jon Parshall, for your generous contribution of your time and expertise, and - as always - thanks Drach for providing such superb content.
On the notion of Saratoga at Midway: From what I've puzzled out, it IS theoretically possible IF Nimitz decides on May 22nd that he NEEDS Saratoga. But very specific orders need to happen:
There are four factors involved in getting Saratoga into the battle: Aircraft, pilots, escorts, and time. All of these factors must come together to get Saratoga to Point Luck by the afternoon of June 2nd.
Aircraft: Saratoga has a detachment of VF-2 assigned and waiting at NAS San Diego. This includes 13 F4F-4s and 1 F4F-7. Also at San Diego are 23 SBDs of Scouting Three. To fill out the rest of the air group, we will not countermand any of Rear Admiral Noyes' directives for reorganizing Yorktown's air group. We're not just trying to swap Saratoga for Yorktown. This means we still have half a squadron of F4F-4s, a squadron of SBDs, and a torpedo squadron left to find. Fortunately, Carrier Air Support Unit-1 on Oahu has roughly enough F4F-4s and SBDs to fill our needs. Unfortunately, there are not enough TBDs in the islands to give us a full strength Torpedo squadron even if we await taking the surviving Devastators from VT-5. There is; however, the second half of Torpedo Eight arriving at Pearl aboard the transport Hammondsport on the 29th of May, with 20 TBFs. 6 of these were sent to Midway on June 1st. The other 14 can probably be ready to fly out to Sara by noon of the 31st. This gives us a full complement of aircraft.
Pilots: The VF-2 attachment is manned by 8 veteran pilots and 6 recent graduates of ACTG. VS-3 is fully manned. The TBFs are fully manned. They are green, but they are also the only available crews rated on the TBFs. This cannot be helped. As for the rest of the aircrews, we will need pilots for the rest of the fighters and our second unit of SBDs. we could lift them from the arriving VF-5, VF-72, and VS-5 but not preferable. Fortunately, there is another source of veteran pilots. Unfortunately, they are heading for San Diego, not Pearl Harbor. The transports George F. Elliott and Barnett, accompanied by the heavy cruiser Chester should be redirected to Pearl Harbor. Historically, this force reached San Diego on June 2. We can have it in Pearl by the 30th at latest. We will take the available 11 pilots from VF-2 that fought at Coral Sea along with 2 VS-2 pilots who were transferring to fighters anyway. We ALSO can completely rebuild VB-2 and should do so. Therefore, pilots are tricky, but not an insurmountable problem.
Escorts: Saratoga will need an escort group. We have already rerouted USS Chester to Pearl Harbor. The AA CL USS San Diego is in San Diego and ready to go. Fairly certain we can shake loose about four DDs in time and proceeding independently to Pearl at best sustained speed.
Time. May 22 is when AF is confirmed as Midway. It is ALSO the day Saratoga leaves Puget Sound. Waiting until May 25th when the Japanese timetable is confirmed, is too late. The margin of timing is too closet make it in time for the battle.
So: May 22nd, VF-2 and VB-2 reconstituted, VS-3, back half of VT-8.
See my post about having John Lundstrom answer airplane and air group questions. Jon Parshall replied to it. I then replied to his reply and listed my alternate history of how to place pilots and planes on four carriers. I based my comment on two factors having to be changed. One being that the Lexington survivors go to Pearl Harbor and not San Diego just as you have said. The other is that the Saratoga would have had to sail from San Diego by noon on May 26. As far as escorts, I also agree that a few DDs and the USS San Diego could have escorted her to Pearl. Also, the Saratoga group would be commanded by R.Adm. Fitch. All the pilot assignments are listed in general. My scenario has Yorktown and Saratoga reach the area NE of Midway on June 3.
@@robertdendooven7258 Fairly the same but some things I see differently are that at Coral Sea, the performance of the TBDs was not that bad. Of course, VT-5 and VT-2 were probably the best Torpedo Squadrons in the fleet but prior to Midway, a combined threat package of Dive Bombers and Torpedo planes would still be seen as the ideal method of attack. So, I'd still say that the torpedo squadrons are going. Also, VT-8's Commander Waldron is really the best squadron commander on the ship. (If you really want 'Good Hornet' to show up, have Stanhope Ring get left behind at Pearl with a broken bird. Waldron is ranking Squadron Commander and takes over as CAG in Ring's absence. Thereupon Waldron takes Hornet's ENTIRE package into Kido Butai. The question is if VB-8 and VS-8 can hit anything. (They've only been flying the SBD since Mid-March)
On the matter of fighters: Remember that VF3/42 is the best formation the US carriers have simply because VF-42 has relevant combat experience, while Thach and his pilots knew the Wildcat-4. VF-8, VF-5, and VF-72 are all untested. The survivors of VF-2 are your only other blooded fighter pilots. If you reintegrate them with the half squadron aboard Saratoga, you have a squadron with similar strengths to Thach's VF-3/42 (I'm not forgetting VF-6. They're not quite as bad off as 5, 8, and 72 but haven't had the experience that VF-2 and VF-42 did.)
As for the timing, my original thoughts had been for Saratoga to haul ass out to Pearl from San Diego on the 25th at top speed, just barely making it and I suppose it could still work but it's a tight margin.
Still, I think we're agreed that while requiring some dedicated work to organize, the job is doable if Nimitz felt he really needed the extra deck.
This is another wonderful offering. I've never been very interested in military, much less naval, history, beyond knowing that failure to understand them leads to misunderstanding the political and geopolitical stuff [my main interest]. These Drachinifel videos are insightful in areas that were not my chief interest. One exchange here was particularly important. The participants in an action may not be exaggerating, or the like, just not able to comprehend the big picture. Some of my ancestors, who harried the Redcoats back to Boston from Concord, undoubtedly had different perceptions of both the "big picture" and the immediate one than did the Redcoat Tommy being sniped at from every fence and grove on the forced retreat.
While studying political history has given me some insight, the overwhelming importance of technology in naval warfare has been made abundantly clear in these videos.
I've been a naval fanatic since I was a teen in the sixties. I cut my teeth with Incredible Victory and Fuchida's Midway...must have read them both a dozen times. Ironically, I started realizing something was rotten in Denmark (or Tokyo) when I started wargaming- both board and computer. Playing as the Japanese, with the traditional morning strike on Midway was always extremely difficult. Your outnumbered, out scouted, and on the horns of a dilemma with bad intelligence. Shattered Sword was an eye opening conformation of my suspicions. Thank you both for these podcasts. (Drachs....on a similar vein, kudos on destroying my decades old perceptions of the "unsinkable" Bismark! 🙃)
Victory at Sea....still makes me sit up at the opening music. I started because neighbors, teachers and mentors were veterans of the Pacific War. A friend's father had scale models of all the WWII US carrier planes. This was in the 60s, I was taking notes...need to learn about these things. Shattered Sword was a book I have been waiting for, and I did not know it.
A wonderful program, thank you! I rank it for Information along with my favorite, the three part Pearl Harbor salvage videos, and for enjoyment, with the second Russian Pacific squadron saga
An amazing discussion. Thank you both so much. It has been fascinating.
Love you guys. We are blessed.
So glad I was able to enjoy the whole thing at work today!!! Great questions and analysis!!! As the son of a USS Phelps sailor that was at Midway, Ill never pass up an opportunity to hear and learn more about it!!
Perfect evening conversation. Definitely worth a 2nd listen. Admiral King rock's!
Admiral King was an irascible SOB. (via "The Admirals," an excellent read)
@@cheddar2648 As Drach put it: "Semper Iratus"
Excellent to see Mr. Parshall here again
much like the comment Drach read about Jon Parshall and Battle 360. it's what got me interested in WW 2, specially the naval side of things. so thank you Mr. Parshall for the effort you've put into your research. now I'm gonna have to get your book because to this day I haven't been able to get my hands on any ww2 books
Brilliant, insightful discussion. I’ve read a half a dozen books on Midway, and yet was presented with many new points.
Greetings from Japan. I would say this guy is well versed in the Japanese perspective, up to about 2:00:00 where I am at, including the domestic cover-up of the defeat. Listening at 1.5x.
Very much worth my three hours of viewing. Thanks Drach and Jon.
I had the pleasure of a few back and forth emails with John for my 'Air Operations at the battle of Midway' video. I consider him and Shattered Sword to be the difinitive sources on the battle.
The aircraft that was indispensable to Midway was Stawberry 5, the PBY that found the Japanese fleet.
I agree only if it had spotted all FOUR Japanese carriers in the same group instead of just the two it did report. The question of where the other two carriers are probably caused the Hornet's air group's flight to nowhere.
For me the PBY is one of the most important planes of the whole war. Did a lot of very important stuff some of which was behind the scenes and largely unsung.
@@robertdendooven7258 You can't have perfect. What you can have is an accurate location of at least someone.
@@RobinTheBot If I was going to call a plane indispensable, then I would want it to be as "perfect" as possible. Just my opinion in the end.
@@robertdendooven7258 The American Admirals were almost certain the IJN carriers would be in two groups of two separated to increase their fighting range. They were organised as such, had appeared in that way at Coral Sea and that’s how the American’s were organised too, so it made sense to them. But Mitscher, about to get a serious promotion, took that surmise as firm orders to hunt for both groups, over any tactical instincts. By not informing his squadron leaders only their group commander he avoided any backchat on deck, but not mutiny in the air. Its hard to imagine his after action report if Waldron had brought VT-8 back alive.
The risk of having 4 carriers together without a dozen heavy cruiser’s worth of AA fire near them, also shows serious IJN over-confidence in the secrecy of their attack, but after the success of Pearl who would doubt that. Even if all the Battleships had been with them, you can bet they’d be rigged for the bombardment of Midway not Kantai Kessen.
This was the quickest 3 hours I’ve spent on UA-cam. Wonderfully done. Thank you both!
I really love the discussion at the beginning, focusing on the paper by Bongers and Torres. From what I can see, this strongly vindicates Nimitz's planning and views going into the battle: that the carrier force he could deploy was sufficient to defeat or even destroy the anticipated Japanese force *as long as* his forces were in a favorable position to strike first, a situation he knew he was in a position to create with the advantage provided by HYPO's code-breaking. In particular, Bongers' and Torres' conclusion that the battle was essentially decided as soon as Nagumo launched the early-morning attack on Midway lines up almost exactly with what Nimitz and his planners had in mind. They determined that there would be a window of opportunity to strike Nagumo's carriers while they were still committed to recovering that strike and vulnerable as a result. The Japanese were also aware on at least some level that Nagumo would be vulnerable if he had to deal with both Midway and an American carrier force at the same time, but simply assumed that wouldn't happen since they expected to have the element of surprise and that it would take any American forces 2-3 days to sail from Pearl Harbor to Midway.
A good battle plan is one that provides the forces to succeed in your expected scenario, and also some margin of error in case things don't go as planned. In this case, I would consider the 4 vs 3 scenario with "good Hornet" as the "middle case" scenario for what Nimitz could expect (he obviously has every right to expect that his carrier commanders will follow orders and send their air groups where they're supposed to). And sure enough, the model suggests that scenario would have been a clean sweep U.S. victory. Even with a lot of things not going as planned ("bad Hornet", plus the ineffectiveness of the Midway planes and submarines, plus Enterprise's scattered launch), the U.S. forces still accomplished a crushing victory in a sub-optimal scenario, because the main underlying assumptions of Nimitz's plan still held up. The American carriers could indeed knock out one Japanese carrier with one dive-bomber squadron each - Enterprise's two squadrons took out Kaga and Akagi (albeit with a very lopsided distribution of attacks), one Yorktown squadron sank Soryu, and a composite group of about 1 and a half squadrons sank Hiryu later on. Nimitz recognized that he had the information to bring about a favorable battle scenario for his carrier forces, and was willing to push his chips in when he felt the odds were in his favor.
props for covering the AAA firepower and radar effectiveness on Japanese aircraft. another factor that often gets overlooked.
I've always thought Japan's attack on Midway was, grossly speaking, an attempt to repeat the Pearl Harbor results. "A big surprise strike, another big victory." Great video.
Excellent interview, learned a lot of additional information about this battle.
What a treasure JP is and by the same token, what a loss not having Jim Hornfischer with us. I always regret not having had the chance to speak with him when I had it. You're a very lucky man brother.
I appreciate the kind words, and yeah, I really mourn Jim's loss. He was my friend and agent and I miss him. He passed one year ago today.
@@jonathanparshall5019 I should have known that and regret that I did not. He seemed like a man who's brain was only outsized by his heart. I do know what is like to lose friends so, when I offer my condolences, I sincerely mean it. Thank you for the fast reply (both in fact). Raise a CINCPAC to your friend this evening, who is now probably conversing with those men he wrote about.
@@arnie24070127 On of my fondest memories of Jim was when he came to visit a few years ago on his way to a funeral down in Iowa. We were sittin' in my study, sippin' a little bourbon, and my phone goes off. I have a custom ringtone, which I crafted from the first ten seconds or so of a Depeche Mode song called "World in My Eyes." Jim immediately reaches for his own phone, and says, "Hold on, someone's calling me!" When I show him that it's *my* phone ringing, and that we *both* have the same Depeche Mode ringtone, he just tilts his head back and lets out this huge laugh. It was definitely a "brothers of different mothers" kind of moment! He was a great guy, huge heart, very, very smart, and a tremendous historian. Cancer sucks.
What a pairing, what a livestream. Such a lovely mix of entertainment and information
It's hardly gonna be better than this! -History really shows how intel' and accaountability works in an civilized democratic environment, testet by war. Thats why totalitary systems always fails in the end.. Keep up the supreme work!
Man, I love these discussions (when I finally getting around to watching them). Thanks Drach and Jon!
As I recall, PBY Catalina pilot Ens. Gaylord Probst had the only successul USN aerial torpedo attack of the battle when he hit the tanker Akebono Maru .
I always said that SAR was an extremely important factor in the war. To add to the point you guys made, a WW2 airplane can be built within hours at peak production, while a pilot takes many months to train.
I don't know why but this channel is one of the best ways for me to fall asleep 😂 seriously! Also I was not really deep into naval history until I came across your content and now I love it. Thank you for giving me more highly "useful" irl information to fill the vacuum between my ears
Amazing video! Thanks so much for a great conversation. Loved every minute of it.
So knowledgeable!! Thank you!
Thanks for posting this very interesting talk.
Finally finished this and I enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks again Drach!
I was 7 in 1942 and don't remember hearing about it then. I saw the love movie with a few scenes of the battle recreated and loved it. I have read Shattered Sword, Black Shoe Admiral and am reading Nimitz. I met them all on this channel. Dear Drach, come to Corpus Christi. If the market is up I will buy you a steak dinner and some Texas clothing. If the market is still crashing downward I will buy you a hot dog or a hamburger. Thanks so much for these great informative programs. Sam Dunnam,, Corpus Christi, TX.
Addendum" the cursor jumps all over the screen during the presentation and the video and sound are slightly out of sync.
Outstanding live stream. Congratulations.
You guys had me demolish a tub of ice cream watching this well past when I should have gone to bed lol. Superb!
I could listen to Jon all day long, he's such a great talker! I'll have to rewatch those Battle 360 videos, now knowing he was involved in them. Next on the shopping list - Shattered Sword!
Fascinating gentlemen. Thank you.
Great stuff. Thanks for the in depth info and perspectives. I often visit Yamamoto's gravesite which is right down the road from me at Tama cemetery. His plot is fairly neglected, surprisingly. Also, I was a bit shocked to learn that many of my Japanese students didn't know who he was.
I should add that in comparison to the gravesite of Robert K Reichhauer (Princeton), Yamamoto's is well-cared for. Reischauer's is so neglected that there are (now very large) trees growing out of the small singular plot. Many refer to him as the first American of WWII as he was killed in the bombing of Shanghai in 1937.
Cheers from Tokyo.
A blessed and most happy Indipendace day "2022' to the greatest generation, may we never forget them and what they did for our freedoms.... Happy 4th of July .
as an Englishman i have to correct the title - it should be Sir Jon Parshall, the man is a legend, such a wealth of knowledge and an absorbing listen
Jon Parshall, esquire.
80 years ago, amazing. 2022 is to 1942, as 1942 is to 1862 and the American Civil War, 80 years. Can't believe how time is, goes so quick when I was a kid I remember these men all being alive.
I heard "Victory at Sea" and a long locked away memory of mine immediately came back. That was the best
A good friends father was on the Yorktown when it sank and but survived to live to his nineties.
As a young sailor he worked in many areas of the ship, including the engine room to manning the weapons. He also worked on clearing and repairing damage done in fighting leading up to the battle of midway. He indicated the repairs were just a stop gap at best. They did what they could do with the mess they had on their hands.
During the many years I was friends with him we spoke many times about what happened yet even today I really enjoy hearing stories
Loved it! Another great post! Thank you.
I'd like to express thanks to Jon Parshall for his tidbit on a previous stream mentioning the CINCPAC cocktail. It's fantastic!
I love these long streams with john, could listen all day haha
You guys are the absolute legends of cool accurate ww2 history
Thank you
Third viewing.... so much info. Thank you Drac and Jon! Stellar
You guys are great. Amazing insights.
Excellent presentation just amazing the amount of knowledge and facts, well done.
I love that Santa Cruz was discussed. Coral Sea and Santa Cruz don't get discussed nearly enough, and even less so in context of Midway.
And Eastern Solomons tend to go straight under the radar.
This is hands down the best streaming to date even though l've watched months later 💯👍😉
this was a really great stream. well done both of you.
Coral sea was a cluster f of air reconnaissance, stacking the deck and air cover. Some of the destroyer that pulled survivors of the Lexington out of the water arrived back at Pearl days before Yorktown. Those days after were spent on the hill at COMPACFLT evaluating the battle. Heads of deck crews, mechanics, armorers and electronic operators as well as reconnaissance and all squadrons were question on their views and what could be improved on. Officers and crews were evaluated for efficiency. And then all reports were evaluated by Nimitz, Halsey, Spruance, Fletcher and all captains commanding the three carriers at Midway.
Three hours - so great, and thx for the Q & A.
Great book, very much enjoyed the read. Well done sir.
Dispitebeing a subscriber I just stumbled onto this video. I've read Shattered Sword (and would love a signature! : ) ) I've listened to this while working and loved it and still learned some wonderful finer points on the battle and carrier actions and procedures in the pacific. Bravo!
Two great sources of info and always great to see Jon!
"Interesting"? Hardly. More like absolutely flipping fascinating.
Around 1hr.30min. The stories shared were great ..you two are the GOAT's..
This conversation was amazing. I was happy to hear Mr Parshall likes Armoured Carrier channel. I also have to admit to looking over at my copy of Shattered Sword and grinning.