What a great video! For me, it is the amateurs lack of mobility in the backswing which causes them to lift the left shoulder at the end of the backswing in an attempt to get the club parallel. You can see the amateurs right shoulder rotation stop when the hands get to about chest height. The sinking in the of the Pro's shoulders is caused by them loading the ground (squatting) at the beginning of the downswing, where the amatuer goes on the attack, hitting at the ball. The Pro's rotation through the ball gives you a perfect picture of how the right shoulder should move, down and forward as the left shoulder moves back and up parallel to one another like Hogan described (under a pane of glass). SUBSCRIBED
Did AMG golf do an amazing job of explaining point by point with illustrations of what's happening? A big yes. Can I make some changes to my swing now? Probably not 😃
It was Leslie King in the book Master Key to Good Golf published in 1976 that fundamentally described this shoulder motion in the downswing. You've elaborated graphically not only the right shoulder action but also the left shoulder action. Also the correct dropping the shaft while retaining the shoulders in fully turned position until half down in in the down swing. For the first twenty years of golf I was a 22 handicap and only hit a pull or slice. The motions you described in your video lowered by handicap 3 strokes a year down to my lowest point of a 4 handicap. Great to see what Lesile King described 40 years ago verified in your analysis.
Congrats Donna! And thanks for sharing that. We want to remind everyone that none of this is "our" info. The greats of the game have been doing it for a long long time. Hopefully, we're helping to make them more known and visualized for more golfers.
Even with video, explanations are tricky. The should moves "up". Got it....but also, dont got it. Up is relative. Up in relation to what? Seems like it's the result of a sort of motion we make if we shrug our shoulders. It moves "up" on the screen but in real life "up" is almost any direction angling away from the ground. Same with "dropping" the hands. What movement mechanically "drops" the hands. I think I know, but I'm mostly guessing
This is absolutely true. If you want to gain a minimum of 20 yds on just about every club, pay attention to the pro take away and perfect that. You will also be 10 times more accurate too. Once you get to the top like the guy on the right, you can’t recover. I have been working on this along with some other things with my instructor and I went from averaging 95 mph with my driver to 103 mph. And it feels like I’m swinging easier but not slower if that makes sense. The game is so much more fun now .
This video should be mandatory viewing. It quantifies and dispels so many myths re shoulder action in the downswing and provides immediate improvement with one simple thought: Get the shoulder "down" with the trail joint "underneath" the lead shoulder joint into impact. Epiphany!
That is where the real lag comes from. You can really see how much swallower and wound up the pro is at the 3:00 min mark. The amateur is much steeper and lost most of the width in his swing. Great stuff! This is something I have been trying to work on, really helps to see it like this.
Be interested to know if your PGA pro has a similar downswing hand path to say Hogan, Himinez, Craig Parry and KJ Choi (golfers who appear to start with an early shoulder rotation and the impression of an outward hand path)?
This is really a great proof of whats going on in the beginning of the swing. I`ve seen video`s from Mike Malaska, about "releasing the arms from the top". He talks about the feeling (not what we actually do) we should have. Great example.
We love AMG. It is by far the most comprehensive method for explaining the truths of a proper golf swing. It has made a world of difference in our own ball striking ability.Is it possible to show the Right Shoulder Movement from a face on like the Left Shoulder Movement video?
First glaring thing I noticed was the Club face staying square of the Pro and matched his spine angle on the takeaway unlike the Amateur's club angle looked a little fanned open.
It appears the shoulders on the pros move down as a reaction from the "leveling/flexion" of the knees perhaps? I know a lot of times in my swing, if I tilt my hips, I STILL jet off and leave my back leg in it's slightly extended state and if I move forward...it only gets straighter. Something to work on. Awesome stuff.
Thank you for the thoughtful video. I noticed some top pro try to rotate the trail shoulder clockwise very subtlety though at top & transition to encourage the under the shoulder movement you were trying to explain. Is my understanding correct?
The AM has a much flatter shoulder plane. Would this exacerbate the lift as the AM needs to do it to get the hands high to generate hand speed to match the rotation? Should the right shoulder take a more under the chin type path which would increase the shoulder plane angle?
Is it possible to do a gears video that shows the movement of the shoulders relative to the ribcage in isolation?? i.e. in the sequence the ribcage would be static and then we could see how much and in what directions the shoulders move throughout the swing relative to it. Great video too, thanks
I think the position of the right forearm at the top is driving a lot of differences. The pro has his right forearm nearly vertical which helps to bow his left wrist. The am has his right elbow further back creating a 'chicken-wing' position which persists through the downswing. In the video the pro has an open triangle at the top of the backswing while the amateur does not. This is a great video.
I'd agree that the am doesn't maintain his plane getting back to the ball. I may be nuts, but if swing with my wrists and shoulders loose, the momentum of the swing (while dropping that right arm) encourages bowing of the left wrist. You can feel it if you're relaxed enuff. This, in turn, helps maintain your shoulder plane (the left shoulder stays down, the clubhead gets square very early, sets up external rotation of the left arm, so that at impact you're delofted, the clubhead weighs 10 pounds, and your hands end up pretty much in the same position (plus forward shaft lean) as they were at address. ++The key, for me as an old f--t, is to keep the hands, wrists, and shoulders relaxed. All the big muscle stuff-save for the left gluteus max & TFL, is done. Yes/no/maybe? pk
Love these videos Guys, it shows exactly...Very good job...I improve my game so much with your videos. More consistent, which is what I am looking for.
I honestly think a huge reason over the top happens is because amateurs have run out of right shoulder external rotation. Then in transition the natural response of the shoulder is to go internal which steepens the shaft. I would love to see if gears could measure the max internal rotation of a players right shoulder, then measure where it is at the top. I would bet that the majority of amateurs are maxed out and the pros have some left which is used in the transition.
If I’m correct, be pro movement is the result of an immediate shift in pressure to the left foot in transition and a slight squat as a result of external rotation of the left knee and separation of the lower and upper body. Once that has completed to around left arm parallel, he begins driving his right side through whilst the left leg straightens. It’s a clear sequence of squat/pressure shift/separation, and then rotation. Whereas the amateur never does the first move, and instead just rotates.
This makes sense to me and the first thing I am aware of here is if you watch how far the left shoulder is away from the chin in the turn with the Pro while the Am crowds his chin with his left shoulder. His chin is tucked into it.. Although I can hit the ball long my dispersion is a little wild. I know my chin tucks into my left shoulder because I have tried either letting it tuck or I have tried raising my chin to let my left shoulder keep turning under it. An issue I have is that my left arm breaks down and wraps further around me than it should although it allows for great distance but my timing has to be bang on. I just tried it in the mirror and if you feel the sensation of pushing the left shoulder away from your chin in the turn, you can get the Pro look in the turn and I'm thinking this will allow for better turn without the left arm collapsing because it isn't getting restricted in the back swing by left shoulder getting hung up in my chin. Get up and try it in the mirror and you will instantly "Get it!" This could easily be a video about the LEFT shoulder movement rather than the right. I'm looking forward to trying this at the range today.
Thanks AMG! I also notice that when you mention the Am quickly rotating trying to unleash power (something I do when my timing is off and it feels like I'm pulling the trigger before I get set at the top) the Pro's shoulder plane is lowering equally as he is using the ground to build torque before unloading into the shot. Am's are more likely to spin back and spin through using arm power rather than torque and turn power without using the ground as we should. Great to see comparisons.
what an amazing video and analysis. so eye opening. thanks so much for this!! dont suppose you have a video that highlights how the ground up will tie in with getting the arms to drop first?? its meant to be lead hip turn that causes the arms to drop first? thanks!!!
thanks. clarified even more after watching the 4 videos you suggested plus some others. i wonder, are you guys going to do any videos explaining how to fade or draw the ball? i think that would really be awesome being able to see what it takes to do either. hopefully soon!! thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work!!
Love the videos guys, this swallowing out at the start of the downswing, do you think that can be achieved with a feeling of dropping the shoulders as opposed to the hands /arms to get that plane better ? Im after a feel to get in the "slot" better but really strugglr to get it from any hand type feel, ie "feel like your dropping them in your pocket" type stuff
pretty cool and valuable and all... but now I've just added "left shoulder/right shoulder dip, turn, rotate, cross over together, pull down, don't pull down, ah go ahead and pull down " to my already too long list of swing thoughts. I'll be lucky to ever see that ball again. (good video, just kidd'n)
Something I noticed about the AM that I finally started to work on this year so I saw it: that right wrist. Look how cupped the AM is and how flat the Pro is.
Love your videos, it really gets me rethink my whole golf swing, more like redefining it in my brain. Hope I can have a session with you guys. Some quality stuff right there 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
i only get a couple of thousand views a video on my channel but I've been telling everyone to come here to check this channel out , keep up the good work
Hi guys hope its going well. Being a hip slider, i think it would help to see how the right glute works throughout the swing please? cant slide if it turns properly? thanks Rob
Think more about the "when" than trying to kill any lateral movement. Have you had a chance to see these two? ua-cam.com/video/j6SkUz3bxUY/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/4Y0YQvu-7mo/v-deo.html
Hi, Guys! Love the videos. Could you clarify what the "camera" position is here? Typically I set up my camera even with my hands down the line. Have a feeling that might affect whether the hands appear "above" or "below" the right shoulder. I know this is a 3D motion capture, but will we be able to see this properly on a typical camera angle?
Hey guys! Why is it that pros’ arms exit so high and left of their body (like Cam Champ), and ams finish with our arms more in front of our body? Thanks in advance!
What movement happens when you say the pro "moves down and away" to initiate the downswing? Does this mean the there is a relative shoulder motion occurring due to the torso rotation and side flexion with minimal actual shoulder movement initially?
Another great video guys. Would too much tension in the right shoulder/lat cause this issue seen with the Am (i.e. a feeling of pulling with the right side to get to the top)?
I have very sincere question. Is dropping the arms in downswing a very important swing thought? I mean is this also very heloful for shallowing the club etc? Is this something golfers do and obtain great results or is this something for a short cut for someone who comes over the top etc? Thank you
Lowering the arms must happen to effectively shallow the club. Some players do it without ever having thought about it. Many players don’t do it either because it was never learned or they worked in trying to keep the arms up. Those players will have to make an effort to learn/re-learn the movement until it becomes habit so they dont have to think about it.😉
@@AthleticMotionGolf Thank you. My two coaches advised me to drop my arms. (I have the habit of rushing my arms in downswing and have less rotation towards the impact even the ball contact is relatively good) I know from my own practice that dropping the arms was useful and created even sometime great flush shots, but because I am not used to do it, I usually do not apply. I think I shall apply more frequently.
AMG is great stuff. Technology has let us see what is “actually” happening, rather than what we “thought” was happening or tried to describe. However!!! until they develop true avatars like in the movies. We will never actually know what it truly “feels” like to do these movements. The golf swing continues to be one of the greatest mysteries in the universe. Could you imagine “avataring” yourself into one of those pro swing! Well - then everyone would know “how” to do it and be a pro and it wouldnt be so special!
The lowering of the left shoulder in the backswing was the most valuable thing I learned from this. It greatly increased my ball striking and accuracy, so thanks~!
Alright so said another way, the right shoulder replaces the space the left shoulder occupied through impact essentially working on the same shoulder plane. How's that for a simple practice swing thought?
The light went off about the right shoulder watching Lexi Thompson's downswing and follow thought with the right shoulder. Her finish is not conventional but it's the right shoulder that I realized that kept her from coming over the top and spinning out. It made a big difference in my ball striking and ball path.
I know this off topic , but how do you release the club and still have a flat wrist through impact. I been hanging on my release and I been way out of sync cause of trying to keep my wrist from flipping or being flat.
That’s why my golf coach told me to have that feeling where my arms just literally fall on plane and that my lower body should feel quieter. It works for me.
I don’t see everything commented upon, but I see the Pro getting BOTH shoulders moving down and back away from the ball off the top by getting the butt back right off the top - the AM is probably early extending.
So many great players hands first move on downswing is the hands moving out towards the ball or between the feet and ball, Hogan and Snead but the shaft flattens out.
If you can find a good down the line angle, you'll see the first couple inches of hand path move sharply down not out with them. That's what we're saying. It's not an extended period of time especially with a player like Hogan who's hands are already under the shoulders at the top. If your hands are that low at the top, you've stayed very close to the plane already.
This is related to "tilt switch" correct? Seems like most ams just immediately dip the right shoulder to get that right tilt on the transition because they're so scared of OTT. Or, at least that's what I do, lol.
Also notice how much faster the amateur is from the top of the swing to halfway through the downswing - waaayyy ahead of the pro. Yet shortly after impact into the final rotation the pro has caught up and is leading by a mile. That there is your difference in clubhead speed and why Pros hit it so much further and it’s the perfect example of “lag” created by involving the lower body more in the downswing to generate speed vs letting the hands and arms generate the speed - probably the biggest difference between a good amateur and a pro. This difference in shoulder turn is completely down to the differences in lower body rotation and a pro never trying to generate clubhead speed with their hands.
I see your point, Jason, and agree with the timing premise but😊... pros use their hands and arms to generate clubhead speed. They're brilliant at it in large part because of your timing point. We know that not only from the data but because of what they tell us they're trying to do😉
Awesome stuff. The wrist set is an obvious difference. But.... how should the good shoulder plane FEEL? Converging lines and graphical data points are not easily translated to the actual swing. For me, anyway.
100% wrong! Its not even that bowed - the issue is that the Am is cupped making the pro looked so bowed. Trust me if you saw a real bowed wrist you will notice it. The pro wrist is very average
im guessing that all the great shoulder planers out there don't fit this mold of hands workings below shoulder as first move? Toms, Elkington, Senden, Choi , Cink …
A key difference is seen at the top. The pro pronates his wrist. This automatically brings the club straight down (Try it!) After that, things happen too fast to make judgements, but mechanistically, the arms are prepared to shallow out, the right arm becomes a sort of piston, and all the guy has to do is to hold on. Hogan pronated the wrist when the arm was below parallel so it was hard to see. P Kenneedy.
Definitely a big difference between these two players, but not the difference for the topic. One of the most accurate players in Tour history (since they've been keeping stats) has the same wrist conditions as the am in this video, but still works his shoulders the same as the pro. That's worth mentioning. Most golfers would benefit significantly from the wrist positions of the pro here (not just as far as this topic is concerned), but it's not an absolute must.
hi AMG, just discovered your channel, thank you! in an effort to fix a harmful "over the top" tendency, I've been experimenting with bowing my left wrist instead of cupping it for a while now, with very little success...based on your comment I'm now wondering if I'm "barking up the wrong tree" so to speak. maybe the shoulder action is a better way forward (pardon the pun)?
Thanks for spending some time around here! You're finding out what a lot of golfers find out... the bowing of the wrist isn't a magic pill, the other parts still have to be there. But a flat to slightly bowed wrist is a great place to start. Check also that you are getting enough forearm pronation at the top and start down👍
So are you saying that the pro starts an hand/arm movement downwards during the weight shift forward and then starts rotation? And the am instead starts rotation of his shoulder too early?
What I notice in this video is the Pro's ability to rotate around his spine. This is very evident in the finish, as the Pro continues to rotate and the Am stops short and starts to stand up.
Unfortunately a lot of us amateur golfers have taken the game up late in life, unless you started playing the game of golf in your very young day's when your bones were supple, then most older amateurs are not going to have a straight left arm like ALL professionals have! Which gives this video the answer to why both swing are so differently!
Actually, Alan, we haven't captured on 3D any pros who keep their left arm straight yet, but we have captured a bunch of Ams that do. A straight left arm isn't really something to strive for.
How much tension is in the pros arms and shoulders? I know at least for the tennis stroke there's almost no tension in the arms, hands, and shoulders when executing the kinetic chain. Is it the same here? And with that being said does the club path just kinda slot in once you have that understanding? Again, for the tennis stroke once you know to let loose and treat your shoulder and below like a whip your stroke just kinda falls in place, and then all your power comes from your leg, hip and trunk lagged rotation.
We really don't have any way of measuring for tension, but my guess would be they'd describe it as feeling very little. Love how you are relating these movements to other sports. There is a lot of gold at the end of that rainbow. Don't let anyone tell convince you to stop doing it😉
right off the bat in the shoulder turn look at the club face angle as it crosses the spine. Pro is much more closed and nearly identical to the spine angle. AM is open.
What’s going on to make that right shoulder move back/down like it is during the early downswing for the pros? Early shift to the left before the rotation?
In your opinion does tilt switch (i.e. moving from left side bend to right side bend) a factor in that, or is it just the hands going away from the target and down? Great vid! (edit) I think that was answered as a no below, arms down below the shoulder plane and then it's on. Which is interesting as it kinda spans different things said by different instructors that sound conflicting but are not necessarily so...
Michael Williams the problem with the “tilt switch” idea (if I understand what you’re saying correctly) doesn’t happen in the transition but much later in the downswing with good players. But we see it all the time with so many ams. The spine NOT tilting back in the transition is what allows these good players to move the shoulders this way. We’ve done a number of vids on what I guess would be the anti-tilt switch move these players do.
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I saw this email 15 times and my swing is now in new efficient shape.. what a lesson
What a great video!
For me, it is the amateurs lack of mobility in the backswing which causes them to lift the left shoulder at the end of the backswing in an attempt to get the club parallel. You can see the amateurs right shoulder rotation stop when the hands get to about chest height. The sinking in the of the Pro's shoulders is caused by them loading the ground (squatting) at the beginning of the downswing, where the amatuer goes on the attack, hitting at the ball. The Pro's rotation through the ball gives you a perfect picture of how the right shoulder should move, down and forward as the left shoulder moves back and up parallel to one another like Hogan described (under a pane of glass). SUBSCRIBED
Thanks for subscribing, Jonathan, and well said👍
This is me!
Did AMG golf do an amazing job of explaining point by point with illustrations of what's happening? A big yes. Can I make some changes to my swing now? Probably not 😃
It was Leslie King in the book Master Key to Good Golf published in 1976 that fundamentally described this shoulder motion in the downswing. You've elaborated graphically not only the right shoulder action but also the left shoulder action. Also the correct dropping the shaft while retaining the shoulders in fully turned position until half down in in the down swing. For the first twenty years of golf I was a 22 handicap and only hit a pull or slice. The motions you described in your video lowered by handicap 3 strokes a year down to my lowest point of a 4 handicap. Great to see what Lesile King described 40 years ago verified in your analysis.
Congrats Donna! And thanks for sharing that. We want to remind everyone that none of this is "our" info. The greats of the game have been doing it for a long long time. Hopefully, we're helping to make them more known and visualized for more golfers.
Even with video, explanations are tricky. The should moves "up". Got it....but also, dont got it. Up is relative. Up in relation to what? Seems like it's the result of a sort of motion we make if we shrug our shoulders. It moves "up" on the screen but in real life "up" is almost any direction angling away from the ground. Same with "dropping" the hands. What movement mechanically "drops" the hands. I think I know, but I'm mostly guessing
@@ericgruber7553an athletic throwing motion initiated from the ground up simple
This is absolutely true. If you want to gain a minimum of 20 yds on just about every club, pay attention to the pro take away and perfect that. You will also be 10 times more accurate too. Once you get to the top like the guy on the right, you can’t recover. I have been working on this along with some other things with my instructor and I went from averaging 95 mph with my driver to 103 mph. And it feels like I’m swinging easier but not slower if that makes sense. The game is so much more fun now .
This video should be mandatory viewing. It quantifies and dispels so many myths re shoulder action in the downswing and provides immediate improvement with one simple thought: Get the shoulder "down" with the trail joint "underneath" the lead shoulder joint into impact. Epiphany!
“One simple thought” provides complicated thought only understood by no one
That is where the real lag comes from. You can really see how much swallower and wound up the pro is at the 3:00 min mark. The amateur is much steeper and lost most of the width in his swing. Great stuff! This is something I have been trying to work on, really helps to see it like this.
Love it, glad it helped. Thanks for taking the time to watch!
I learn so much from you guys. No lies just evidence.
Thank you!!!
Be interested to know if your PGA pro has a similar downswing hand path to say Hogan, Himinez, Craig Parry and KJ Choi (golfers who appear to start with an early shoulder rotation and the impression of an outward hand path)?
fabulous!very detailed and instructive
thanks for watching!
This is really a great proof of whats going on in the beginning of the swing. I`ve seen video`s from Mike Malaska, about "releasing the arms from the top". He talks about the feeling (not what we actually do) we should have. Great example.
Exactly right... those arms have got to be brought down.
This is the malaska move, amg is putting out quality videos sheesh
🙏👊
Thank you Mike, but how do we feel/ do that pro move? Ron
We love AMG. It is by far the most comprehensive method for explaining the truths of a proper golf swing. It has made a world of difference in our own ball striking ability.Is it possible to show the Right Shoulder Movement from a face on like the Left Shoulder Movement video?
Cool video. Do you have any videos like this explaining side bend for backswing and downswing?
It comes out on Sunday 👊🙂
First glaring thing I noticed was the Club face staying square of the Pro and matched his spine angle on the takeaway unlike the Amateur's club angle looked a little fanned open.
It appears the shoulders on the pros move down as a reaction from the "leveling/flexion" of the knees perhaps? I know a lot of times in my swing, if I tilt my hips, I STILL jet off and leave my back leg in it's slightly extended state and if I move forward...it only gets straighter. Something to work on. Awesome stuff.
this is the data that I've been looking for. great analysis.
2:23 - biggest lesson is the bowed wrist top left corner for the Pro and cupped for the AM
Its all about sequencing.
All the above - but consider from the top of the backswing to impact position which has least moving parts? Impact position has bowed wrist
The video does not show impact position - only at the top of the swing.
This type of video on the right shoulder might be very informative and helpful if shot from above
Don't think you'd see the lowering from above.
is this vaguely the same as or sim to keeping external rotation of trail shoulder? i get confused when some say "hit the ball with your rt shoulder"
wow deep.. excellent insight.. this is revolutionary for most amateurs. even good ones
Thank so you much for what you guys do here. Its very useful and easy.
Thank you for the thoughtful video. I noticed some top pro try to rotate the trail shoulder clockwise very subtlety though at top & transition to encourage the under the shoulder movement you were trying to explain. Is my understanding correct?
Excellent Mike and Shawn!! 💪
I like to see this but when you’re done I would like some feedback as to what we NEED TO DO TO CORRECT THOSE MISTAKES.
Great "insider" Information ! thanks
The AM has a much flatter shoulder plane. Would this exacerbate the lift as the AM needs to do it to get the hands high to generate hand speed to match the rotation? Should the right shoulder take a more under the chin type path which would increase the shoulder plane angle?
Is it possible to do a gears video that shows the movement of the shoulders relative to the ribcage in isolation?? i.e. in the sequence the ribcage would be static and then we could see how much and in what directions the shoulders move throughout the swing relative to it. Great video too, thanks
I think the position of the right forearm at the top is driving a lot of differences. The pro has his right forearm nearly vertical which helps to bow his left wrist. The am has his right elbow further back creating a 'chicken-wing' position which persists through the downswing. In the video the pro has an open triangle at the top of the backswing while the amateur does not. This is a great video.
cool observation!
so many moving parts...literally...still struggling with what to "make" happen vs "let" happen in the golf swing
I'd agree that the am doesn't maintain his plane getting back to the ball. I may be nuts, but if swing with my wrists and shoulders loose, the momentum of the swing (while dropping that right arm) encourages bowing of the left wrist. You can feel it if you're relaxed enuff. This, in turn, helps maintain your shoulder plane (the left shoulder stays down, the clubhead gets square very early, sets up external rotation of the left arm, so that at impact you're delofted, the clubhead weighs 10 pounds, and your hands end up pretty much in the same position (plus forward shaft lean) as they were at address. ++The key, for me as an old f--t, is to keep the hands, wrists, and shoulders relaxed. All the big muscle stuff-save for the left gluteus max & TFL, is done. Yes/no/maybe? pk
What is the reason behind those movement ?
Love these videos Guys, it shows exactly...Very good job...I improve my game so much with your videos. More consistent, which is what I am looking for.
Is it Dustin Johnson on the left?
I thought the same thing
What causes the shoulder drop at the start of the downswing? Is the pro flexing his hips or knees or both t0 drop down?
I honestly think a huge reason over the top happens is because amateurs have run out of right shoulder external rotation. Then in transition the natural response of the shoulder is to go internal which steepens the shaft. I would love to see if gears could measure the max internal rotation of a players right shoulder, then measure where it is at the top. I would bet that the majority of amateurs are maxed out and the pros have some left which is used in the transition.
Unfortunately, it doesn't at the moment. Because of the complex ranges of motion, shoulders are VERY difficult to get degrees of movement.
Clear as mud
If I’m correct, be pro movement is the result of an immediate shift in pressure to the left foot in transition and a slight squat as a result of external rotation of the left knee and separation of the lower and upper body. Once that has completed to around left arm parallel, he begins driving his right side through whilst the left leg straightens. It’s a clear sequence of squat/pressure shift/separation, and then rotation. Whereas the amateur never does the first move, and instead just rotates.
Overtilt that left shoulder down move to feel it. Really helped my swing. Works great with chipping and short shots too
This makes sense to me and the first thing I am aware of here is if you watch how far the left shoulder is away from the chin in the turn with the Pro while the Am crowds his chin with his left shoulder. His chin is tucked into it.. Although I can hit the ball long my dispersion is a little wild. I know my chin tucks into my left shoulder because I have tried either letting it tuck or I have tried raising my chin to let my left shoulder keep turning under it. An issue I have is that my left arm breaks down and wraps further around me than it should although it allows for great distance but my timing has to be bang on.
I just tried it in the mirror and if you feel the sensation of pushing the left shoulder away from your chin in the turn, you can get the Pro look in the turn and I'm thinking this will allow for better turn without the left arm collapsing because it isn't getting restricted in the back swing by left shoulder getting hung up in my chin. Get up and try it in the mirror and you will instantly "Get it!" This could easily be a video about the LEFT shoulder movement rather than the right. I'm looking forward to trying this at the range today.
Great observation and feel there, 1 Putt💪
Thanks AMG! I also notice that when you mention the Am quickly rotating trying to unleash power (something I do when my timing is off and it feels like I'm pulling the trigger before I get set at the top) the Pro's shoulder plane is lowering equally as he is using the ground to build torque before unloading into the shot. Am's are more likely to spin back and spin through using arm power rather than torque and turn power without using the ground as we should. Great to see comparisons.
what an amazing video and analysis. so eye opening. thanks so much for this!! dont suppose you have a video that highlights how the ground up will tie in with getting the arms to drop first?? its meant to be lead hip turn that causes the arms to drop first? thanks!!!
Have you seen these yet?
ua-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=j6SkUz3bxUY
ua-cam.com/video/4Y0YQvu-7mo/v-deo.html
thanks. clarified even more after watching the 4 videos you suggested plus some others. i wonder, are you guys going to do any videos explaining how to fade or draw the ball? i think that would really be awesome being able to see what it takes to do either. hopefully soon!! thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work!!
Love the videos guys, this swallowing out at the start of the downswing, do you think that can be achieved with a feeling of dropping the shoulders as opposed to the hands /arms to get that plane better ? Im after a feel to get in the "slot" better but really strugglr to get it from any hand type feel, ie "feel like your dropping them in your pocket" type stuff
It’s usually a backswing issue if you’re steep
@@AthleticMotionGolf thank you, it should've been shallowing by the way but thanks for not pulling me on that one 😂😂😂
pretty cool and valuable and all... but now I've just added "left shoulder/right shoulder dip, turn, rotate, cross over together, pull down, don't pull down, ah go ahead and pull down " to my already too long list of swing thoughts. I'll be lucky to ever see that ball again. (good video, just kidd'n)
Great question... make you swing take 10 seconds from address to impact. Remember, you still have to think about all the lower body moves too! 😂😉
Something I noticed about the AM that I finally started to work on this year so I saw it: that right wrist. Look how cupped the AM is and how flat the Pro is.
Love your videos, it really gets me rethink my whole golf swing, more like redefining it in my brain. Hope I can have a session with you guys. Some quality stuff right there 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
🙏🏻💯
i only get a couple of thousand views a video on my channel but I've been telling everyone to come here to check this channel out , keep up the good work
Do the hands get above the right shoulder at the top of the backswing? Or is that an illusion due to the shoulder tilt and rotation?
They will for most 👍
Hi guys hope its going well. Being a hip slider, i think it would help to see how the right glute works throughout the swing please? cant slide if it turns properly? thanks Rob
Think more about the "when" than trying to kill any lateral movement. Have you had a chance to see these two?
ua-cam.com/video/j6SkUz3bxUY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/4Y0YQvu-7mo/v-deo.html
Hi, Guys! Love the videos. Could you clarify what the "camera" position is here? Typically I set up my camera even with my hands down the line. Have a feeling that might affect whether the hands appear "above" or "below" the right shoulder. I know this is a 3D motion capture, but will we be able to see this properly on a typical camera angle?
Yessir. Setup the camera so the lens is at hand height pointing right through the hands to the target 👍
Excellent analysis.... I just put my clubs for sale on ebay! Thanks
Say it aint so😲
Hey guys! Why is it that pros’ arms exit so high and left of their body (like Cam Champ), and ams finish with our arms more in front of our body? Thanks in advance!
What movement happens when you say the pro "moves down and away" to initiate the downswing? Does this mean the there is a relative shoulder motion occurring due to the torso rotation and side flexion with minimal actual shoulder movement initially?
As far as the shoulder goes, think of it as the opposite of a shoulder shrug.
That's the question I wanted to ask, but didn't know how to word it! The reply makes sense of it, thanks.
Another great video guys. Would too much tension in the right shoulder/lat cause this issue seen with the Am (i.e. a feeling of pulling with the right side to get to the top)?
It definitely could. In an effort to make a "strong" move, too much tension often gets put into the move.
So whats the best way to do this?
Nice vid once again. But I am still not sure now which muscles I should activate ( maybe also the core) to lower the shoulders in the downswing.
I have very sincere question. Is dropping the arms in downswing a very important swing thought? I mean is this also very heloful for shallowing the club etc? Is this something golfers do and obtain great results or is this something for a short cut for someone who comes over the top etc? Thank you
Lowering the arms must happen to effectively shallow the club. Some players do it without ever having thought about it. Many players don’t do it either because it was never learned or they worked in trying to keep the arms up. Those players will have to make an effort to learn/re-learn the movement until it becomes habit so they dont have to think about it.😉
@@AthleticMotionGolf Thank you. My two coaches advised me to drop my arms. (I have the habit of rushing my arms in downswing and have less rotation towards the impact even the ball contact is relatively good) I know from my own practice that dropping the arms was useful and created even sometime great flush shots, but because I am not used to do it, I usually do not apply. I think I shall apply more frequently.
1:33 Looks like the am’s torso and left shoulder stall out relative to the pro’s. So that the am’s shoulder rises and breaks above the plane. KOD.
AMG is great stuff. Technology has let us see what is “actually” happening, rather than what we “thought” was happening or tried to describe. However!!! until they develop true avatars like in the movies. We will never actually know what it truly “feels” like to do these movements. The golf swing continues to be one of the greatest mysteries in the universe. Could you imagine “avataring” yourself into one of those pro swing! Well - then everyone would know “how” to do it and be a pro and it wouldnt be so special!
Is this coming from the squatting motion? Or is it really a shoulder movement?
The lowering of the left shoulder in the backswing was the most valuable thing I learned from this. It greatly increased my ball striking and accuracy, so thanks~!
Is this right shoulder action applicable to both woods and irons. Assuming that “centering” might be an issue for irons Please help
Alright so said another way, the right shoulder replaces the space the left shoulder occupied through impact essentially working on the same shoulder plane. How's that for a simple practice swing thought?
We just might steal that😉
The pro never really gets out of his posture, and I do sometimes. Seeing this video shows me that I don't have to over work the back swing.
The light went off about the right shoulder watching Lexi Thompson's downswing and follow thought with the right shoulder. Her finish is not conventional but it's the right shoulder that I realized that kept her from coming over the top and spinning out. It made a big difference in my ball striking and ball path.
I know this off topic , but how do you release the club and still have a flat wrist through impact. I been hanging on my release and I been way out of sync cause of trying to keep my wrist from flipping or being flat.
The pros left arm is almost parallel to the ground from hand drop before the loaded shoulders even begin to unwind?
Yep, they don't leave the arm up and turn like so many seem to be trying to do these days.
So, how do you do this?
i dont need a coach with you guys! :D THANKS AND KEEP IT UP PLEASE!!
We just ask for 3% of your winnings😉😂
haha we can talk in 5 years! hopefully youl know me then!
That’s why my golf coach told me to have that feeling where my arms just literally fall on plane and that my lower body should feel quieter. It works for me.
What does your opinion that "it works for you" mean? What is that statement based on?
I don’t see everything commented upon, but I see the Pro getting BOTH shoulders moving down and back away from the ball off the top by getting the butt back right off the top - the AM is probably early extending.
@@billygraham5589 can you explain how you can see the pro moving his butt back when you can’t see his butt?
So many great players hands first move on downswing is the hands moving out towards the ball or between the feet and ball, Hogan and Snead but the shaft flattens out.
If you can find a good down the line angle, you'll see the first couple inches of hand path move sharply down not out with them. That's what we're saying. It's not an extended period of time especially with a player like Hogan who's hands are already under the shoulders at the top. If your hands are that low at the top, you've stayed very close to the plane already.
Athletic Motion Golf Not true the first foot or more is moving out not down, look at Wayne DeFrancesco videos on Hogan or Snead.
This is related to "tilt switch" correct? Seems like most ams just immediately dip the right shoulder to get that right tilt on the transition because they're so scared of OTT. Or, at least that's what I do, lol.
Yep, that's a very common move we see all the time out of transition.
This is a huge problem for me right now what is the move I need to do instead of firing/turning shoulder? Is it swing with arms turn late?
Scroll the video to 3.12 this shows you how far the pros hands and arms have dropped before he starts turning the shoulders.
This is the major difference in golf move where both arms and right shoulder dropping down and under not across.
I just got the cast off a broken left wrist and I can't cup it anymore, so hopefully I'll be hitting the ball like DJ now.
If that works out, there might be more guys breaking their own wrists, lol
Im just curious what kind of software this is youre using to analyze, suuuuuper detailed and high frame rate.
What is causing that? Is it a reaction to what the legs are doing causing the shoulders to drop? And what would the feeling feel like if not?
Does pro have more baseball movement
Also notice how much faster the amateur is from the top of the swing to halfway through the downswing - waaayyy ahead of the pro. Yet shortly after impact into the final rotation the pro has caught up and is leading by a mile. That there is your difference in clubhead speed and why Pros hit it so much further and it’s the perfect example of “lag” created by involving the lower body more in the downswing to generate speed vs letting the hands and arms generate the speed - probably the biggest difference between a good amateur and a pro. This difference in shoulder turn is completely down to the differences in lower body rotation and a pro never trying to generate clubhead speed with their hands.
I see your point, Jason, and agree with the timing premise but😊... pros use their hands and arms to generate clubhead speed. They're brilliant at it in large part because of your timing point. We know that not only from the data but because of what they tell us they're trying to do😉
I throw my right shoulder at the ball, causing over the top, etc.. I can't seem to change it :(
Awesome stuff. The wrist set is an obvious difference. But.... how should the good shoulder plane FEEL? Converging lines and graphical data points are not easily translated to the actual swing. For me, anyway.
Sure Doug... where are your hands and club at the top?
DJ on the left right there... bowed left wrist with lots of rotation from the top while dropping the club
Not DJ, this is Daniel Berger
This is clearly Abraham Lincoln
cestdarcy oh noooo
RendeZvouS-2 a1
100% wrong! Its not even that bowed - the issue is that the Am is cupped making the pro looked so bowed. Trust me if you saw a real bowed wrist you will notice it. The pro wrist is very average
Love these videos
im guessing that all the great shoulder planers out there don't fit this mold of hands workings below shoulder as first
move? Toms, Elkington, Senden, Choi , Cink …
Thought you might give drill to work on this
Awesome!-first time viewer
Thanks! And we really appreciate you taking the time to watch👍
Drill for this?
A key difference is seen at the top. The pro pronates his wrist. This automatically brings the club straight down (Try it!) After that, things happen too fast to make judgements, but mechanistically, the arms are prepared to shallow out, the right arm becomes a sort of piston, and all the guy has to do is to hold on. Hogan pronated the wrist when the arm was below parallel so it was hard to see. P Kenneedy.
Definitely a big difference between these two players, but not the difference for the topic. One of the most accurate players in Tour history (since they've been keeping stats) has the same wrist conditions as the am in this video, but still works his shoulders the same as the pro. That's worth mentioning. Most golfers would benefit significantly from the wrist positions of the pro here (not just as far as this topic is concerned), but it's not an absolute must.
hi AMG, just discovered your channel, thank you!
in an effort to fix a harmful "over the top" tendency, I've been experimenting with bowing my left wrist instead of cupping it for a while now, with very little success...based on your comment I'm now wondering if I'm "barking up the wrong tree" so to speak.
maybe the shoulder action is a better way forward (pardon the pun)?
Thanks for spending some time around here!
You're finding out what a lot of golfers find out... the bowing of the wrist isn't a magic pill, the other parts still have to be there. But a flat to slightly bowed wrist is a great place to start. Check also that you are getting enough forearm pronation at the top and start down👍
So are you saying that the pro starts an hand/arm movement downwards during the weight shift forward and then starts rotation? And the am instead starts rotation of his shoulder too early?
Would love to hear a reply to this question from AMG
Great vid.
Thanks for watching, Andrew!
these guys are kinetic motion scientists.
name no no no just golf pros😊
What I notice in this video is the Pro's ability to rotate around his spine. This is very evident in the finish, as the Pro continues to rotate and the Am stops short and starts to stand up.
How do you train amateurs to have that downward shoulder movement?
In large part by keeping the left shoulder down and the spine more vertical in transition.
what do you mean by having spine more vetical? standing more upright as opposed to having chest over the ball? or avoiding sidebend?
Unfortunately a lot of us amateur golfers have taken the game up late in life, unless you started playing the game of golf in your very young day's when your bones were supple, then most older amateurs are not going to have a straight left arm like ALL professionals have! Which gives this video the answer to why both swing are so differently!
Actually, Alan, we haven't captured on 3D any pros who keep their left arm straight yet, but we have captured a bunch of Ams that do. A straight left arm isn't really something to strive for.
How much tension is in the pros arms and shoulders? I know at least for the tennis stroke there's almost no tension in the arms, hands, and shoulders when executing the kinetic chain. Is it the same here? And with that being said does the club path just kinda slot in once you have that understanding? Again, for the tennis stroke once you know to let loose and treat your shoulder and below like a whip your stroke just kinda falls in place, and then all your power comes from your leg, hip and trunk lagged rotation.
We really don't have any way of measuring for tension, but my guess would be they'd describe it as feeling very little. Love how you are relating these movements to other sports. There is a lot of gold at the end of that rainbow. Don't let anyone tell convince you to stop doing it😉
Geez I wish I was as good as the AM.
right off the bat in the shoulder turn look at the club face angle as it crosses the spine. Pro is much more closed and nearly identical to the spine angle. AM is open.
What’s going on to make that right shoulder move back/down like it is during the early downswing for the pros? Early shift to the left before the rotation?
Squatting down into the shot
Arm motion
There isn't a squat when that's happening.
In your opinion does tilt switch (i.e. moving from left side bend to right side bend) a factor in that, or is it just the hands going away from the target and down? Great vid! (edit) I think that was answered as a no below, arms down below the shoulder plane and then it's on. Which is interesting as it kinda spans different things said by different instructors that sound conflicting but are not necessarily so...
Michael Williams the problem with the “tilt switch” idea (if I understand what you’re saying correctly) doesn’t happen in the transition but much later in the downswing with good players. But we see it all the time with so many ams. The spine NOT tilting back in the transition is what allows these good players to move the shoulders this way. We’ve done a number of vids on what I guess would be the anti-tilt switch move these players do.
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