Right Shoulder Movement In The Golf Swing: Pros vs Ams
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2018
- We've looked at the how the left shoulder moves in elite golf swings, now we'll look at the right shoulder movements. The shoulders need to work well together but many golfers just think "the shoulders" move as a unit... that's not the case at all. Each shoulder has a large range of motion so it's not a given they will move together in the best interest of our golf swing. Hopefully, this video will help shed some light on a few of the key differences we see between how pros typically move their shoulders compared to how many ams move them.
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Love these videos Guys, it shows exactly...Very good job...I improve my game so much with your videos. More consistent, which is what I am looking for.
Great "insider" Information ! thanks
Thank so you much for what you guys do here. Its very useful and easy.
Did AMG golf do an amazing job of explaining point by point with illustrations of what's happening? A big yes. Can I make some changes to my swing now? Probably not 😃
Love your videos, it really gets me rethink my whole golf swing, more like redefining it in my brain. Hope I can have a session with you guys. Some quality stuff right there 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
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I saw this email 15 times and my swing is now in new efficient shape.. what a lesson
fabulous!very detailed and instructive
thanks for watching!
What a great video!
For me, it is the amateurs lack of mobility in the backswing which causes them to lift the left shoulder at the end of the backswing in an attempt to get the club parallel. You can see the amateurs right shoulder rotation stop when the hands get to about chest height. The sinking in the of the Pro's shoulders is caused by them loading the ground (squatting) at the beginning of the downswing, where the amatuer goes on the attack, hitting at the ball. The Pro's rotation through the ball gives you a perfect picture of how the right shoulder should move, down and forward as the left shoulder moves back and up parallel to one another like Hogan described (under a pane of glass). SUBSCRIBED
Thanks for subscribing, Jonathan, and well said👍
This is me!
This video should be mandatory viewing. It quantifies and dispels so many myths re shoulder action in the downswing and provides immediate improvement with one simple thought: Get the shoulder "down" with the trail joint "underneath" the lead shoulder joint into impact. Epiphany!
“One simple thought” provides complicated thought only understood by no one
wow deep.. excellent insight.. this is revolutionary for most amateurs. even good ones
Love these videos
Nice vid once again. But I am still not sure now which muscles I should activate ( maybe also the core) to lower the shoulders in the downswing.
I learn so much from you guys. No lies just evidence.
Thank you!!!
what an amazing video and analysis. so eye opening. thanks so much for this!! dont suppose you have a video that highlights how the ground up will tie in with getting the arms to drop first?? its meant to be lead hip turn that causes the arms to drop first? thanks!!!
Have you seen these yet?
ua-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=j6SkUz3bxUY
ua-cam.com/video/4Y0YQvu-7mo/v-deo.html
thanks. clarified even more after watching the 4 videos you suggested plus some others. i wonder, are you guys going to do any videos explaining how to fade or draw the ball? i think that would really be awesome being able to see what it takes to do either. hopefully soon!! thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work!!
Excellent Mike and Shawn!! 💪
this is the data that I've been looking for. great analysis.
It was Leslie King in the book Master Key to Good Golf published in 1976 that fundamentally described this shoulder motion in the downswing. You've elaborated graphically not only the right shoulder action but also the left shoulder action. Also the correct dropping the shaft while retaining the shoulders in fully turned position until half down in in the down swing. For the first twenty years of golf I was a 22 handicap and only hit a pull or slice. The motions you described in your video lowered by handicap 3 strokes a year down to my lowest point of a 4 handicap. Great to see what Lesile King described 40 years ago verified in your analysis.
Congrats Donna! And thanks for sharing that. We want to remind everyone that none of this is "our" info. The greats of the game have been doing it for a long long time. Hopefully, we're helping to make them more known and visualized for more golfers.
Even with video, explanations are tricky. The should moves "up". Got it....but also, dont got it. Up is relative. Up in relation to what? Seems like it's the result of a sort of motion we make if we shrug our shoulders. It moves "up" on the screen but in real life "up" is almost any direction angling away from the ground. Same with "dropping" the hands. What movement mechanically "drops" the hands. I think I know, but I'm mostly guessing
@@ericgruber7553an athletic throwing motion initiated from the ground up simple
Thank you Mike, but how do we feel/ do that pro move? Ron
Hands down the best golf instruction on the internet.
🙏👊
We love AMG. It is by far the most comprehensive method for explaining the truths of a proper golf swing. It has made a world of difference in our own ball striking ability.Is it possible to show the Right Shoulder Movement from a face on like the Left Shoulder Movement video?
This is the malaska move, amg is putting out quality videos sheesh
🙏👊
The light went off about the right shoulder watching Lexi Thompson's downswing and follow thought with the right shoulder. Her finish is not conventional but it's the right shoulder that I realized that kept her from coming over the top and spinning out. It made a big difference in my ball striking and ball path.
Thank you for the thoughtful video. I noticed some top pro try to rotate the trail shoulder clockwise very subtlety though at top & transition to encourage the under the shoulder movement you were trying to explain. Is my understanding correct?
This is really a great proof of whats going on in the beginning of the swing. I`ve seen video`s from Mike Malaska, about "releasing the arms from the top". He talks about the feeling (not what we actually do) we should have. Great example.
Exactly right... those arms have got to be brought down.
Overtilt that left shoulder down move to feel it. Really helped my swing. Works great with chipping and short shots too
That is where the real lag comes from. You can really see how much swallower and wound up the pro is at the 3:00 min mark. The amateur is much steeper and lost most of the width in his swing. Great stuff! This is something I have been trying to work on, really helps to see it like this.
Love it, glad it helped. Thanks for taking the time to watch!
Is it possible to do a gears video that shows the movement of the shoulders relative to the ribcage in isolation?? i.e. in the sequence the ribcage would be static and then we could see how much and in what directions the shoulders move throughout the swing relative to it. Great video too, thanks
Love it !!!
Im just curious what kind of software this is youre using to analyze, suuuuuper detailed and high frame rate.
Clear as mud
Great vid.
Thanks for watching, Andrew!
It appears the shoulders on the pros move down as a reaction from the "leveling/flexion" of the knees perhaps? I know a lot of times in my swing, if I tilt my hips, I STILL jet off and leave my back leg in it's slightly extended state and if I move forward...it only gets straighter. Something to work on. Awesome stuff.
Be interested to know if your PGA pro has a similar downswing hand path to say Hogan, Himinez, Craig Parry and KJ Choi (golfers who appear to start with an early shoulder rotation and the impression of an outward hand path)?
Another great video guys. Would too much tension in the right shoulder/lat cause this issue seen with the Am (i.e. a feeling of pulling with the right side to get to the top)?
It definitely could. In an effort to make a "strong" move, too much tension often gets put into the move.
i dont need a coach with you guys! :D THANKS AND KEEP IT UP PLEASE!!
We just ask for 3% of your winnings😉😂
haha we can talk in 5 years! hopefully youl know me then!
Cool video. Do you have any videos like this explaining side bend for backswing and downswing?
It comes out on Sunday 👊🙂
This is absolutely true. If you want to gain a minimum of 20 yds on just about every club, pay attention to the pro take away and perfect that. You will also be 10 times more accurate too. Once you get to the top like the guy on the right, you can’t recover. I have been working on this along with some other things with my instructor and I went from averaging 95 mph with my driver to 103 mph. And it feels like I’m swinging easier but not slower if that makes sense. The game is so much more fun now .
I know this off topic , but how do you release the club and still have a flat wrist through impact. I been hanging on my release and I been way out of sync cause of trying to keep my wrist from flipping or being flat.
정말 좋은내용이네요
2:23 - biggest lesson is the bowed wrist top left corner for the Pro and cupped for the AM
Its all about sequencing.
All the above - but consider from the top of the backswing to impact position which has least moving parts? Impact position has bowed wrist
The video does not show impact position - only at the top of the swing.
The AM has a much flatter shoulder plane. Would this exacerbate the lift as the AM needs to do it to get the hands high to generate hand speed to match the rotation? Should the right shoulder take a more under the chin type path which would increase the shoulder plane angle?
What is causing that? Is it a reaction to what the legs are doing causing the shoulders to drop? And what would the feeling feel like if not?
is this vaguely the same as or sim to keeping external rotation of trail shoulder? i get confused when some say "hit the ball with your rt shoulder"
I like to see this but when you’re done I would like some feedback as to what we NEED TO DO TO CORRECT THOSE MISTAKES.
Thought you might give drill to work on this
i only get a couple of thousand views a video on my channel but I've been telling everyone to come here to check this channel out , keep up the good work
First glaring thing I noticed was the Club face staying square of the Pro and matched his spine angle on the takeaway unlike the Amateur's club angle looked a little fanned open.
Hi, Guys! Love the videos. Could you clarify what the "camera" position is here? Typically I set up my camera even with my hands down the line. Have a feeling that might affect whether the hands appear "above" or "below" the right shoulder. I know this is a 3D motion capture, but will we be able to see this properly on a typical camera angle?
Yessir. Setup the camera so the lens is at hand height pointing right through the hands to the target 👍
This is the major difference in golf move where both arms and right shoulder dropping down and under not across.
Excellent analysis.... I just put my clubs for sale on ebay! Thanks
Say it aint so😲
That’s why my golf coach told me to have that feeling where my arms just literally fall on plane and that my lower body should feel quieter. It works for me.
What does your opinion that "it works for you" mean? What is that statement based on?
This type of video on the right shoulder might be very informative and helpful if shot from above
Don't think you'd see the lowering from above.
What causes the shoulder drop at the start of the downswing? Is the pro flexing his hips or knees or both t0 drop down?
Something I noticed about the AM that I finally started to work on this year so I saw it: that right wrist. Look how cupped the AM is and how flat the Pro is.
Awesome stuff. The wrist set is an obvious difference. But.... how should the good shoulder plane FEEL? Converging lines and graphical data points are not easily translated to the actual swing. For me, anyway.
Sure Doug... where are your hands and club at the top?
Hi guys hope its going well. Being a hip slider, i think it would help to see how the right glute works throughout the swing please? cant slide if it turns properly? thanks Rob
Think more about the "when" than trying to kill any lateral movement. Have you had a chance to see these two?
ua-cam.com/video/j6SkUz3bxUY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/4Y0YQvu-7mo/v-deo.html
Hey guys! Why is it that pros’ arms exit so high and left of their body (like Cam Champ), and ams finish with our arms more in front of our body? Thanks in advance!
Love the videos guys, this swallowing out at the start of the downswing, do you think that can be achieved with a feeling of dropping the shoulders as opposed to the hands /arms to get that plane better ? Im after a feel to get in the "slot" better but really strugglr to get it from any hand type feel, ie "feel like your dropping them in your pocket" type stuff
It’s usually a backswing issue if you’re steep
@@AthleticMotionGolf thank you, it should've been shallowing by the way but thanks for not pulling me on that one 😂😂😂
Is this coming from the squatting motion? Or is it really a shoulder movement?
What is the reason behind those movement ?
Sounds like you are the am as much as you say between us is there that sharp of line 220/221
Is it Dustin Johnson on the left?
I thought the same thing
DJ on the left right there... bowed left wrist with lots of rotation from the top while dropping the club
Not DJ, this is Daniel Berger
This is clearly Abraham Lincoln
cestdarcy oh noooo
RendeZvouS-2 a1
100% wrong! Its not even that bowed - the issue is that the Am is cupped making the pro looked so bowed. Trust me if you saw a real bowed wrist you will notice it. The pro wrist is very average
I honestly think a huge reason over the top happens is because amateurs have run out of right shoulder external rotation. Then in transition the natural response of the shoulder is to go internal which steepens the shaft. I would love to see if gears could measure the max internal rotation of a players right shoulder, then measure where it is at the top. I would bet that the majority of amateurs are maxed out and the pros have some left which is used in the transition.
Unfortunately, it doesn't at the moment. Because of the complex ranges of motion, shoulders are VERY difficult to get degrees of movement.
Geez I wish I was as good as the AM.
What drills do you have to incorporate these techniques into our swings ?
Cup your left wrist ... they don’t say it but have the feeling of opening the club face .... way I say it on the way down is imagine your bitch slapping somebody you hate .... or back hand the ball lol 😝 only works if you have the squat and release and correct hip movement which in a seconds swing is for mere mortals 🥳 not that easy
I'd agree that the am doesn't maintain his plane getting back to the ball. I may be nuts, but if swing with my wrists and shoulders loose, the momentum of the swing (while dropping that right arm) encourages bowing of the left wrist. You can feel it if you're relaxed enuff. This, in turn, helps maintain your shoulder plane (the left shoulder stays down, the clubhead gets square very early, sets up external rotation of the left arm, so that at impact you're delofted, the clubhead weighs 10 pounds, and your hands end up pretty much in the same position (plus forward shaft lean) as they were at address. ++The key, for me as an old f--t, is to keep the hands, wrists, and shoulders relaxed. All the big muscle stuff-save for the left gluteus max & TFL, is done. Yes/no/maybe? pk
pretty cool and valuable and all... but now I've just added "left shoulder/right shoulder dip, turn, rotate, cross over together, pull down, don't pull down, ah go ahead and pull down " to my already too long list of swing thoughts. I'll be lucky to ever see that ball again. (good video, just kidd'n)
Great question... make you swing take 10 seconds from address to impact. Remember, you still have to think about all the lower body moves too! 😂😉
How much tension is in the pros arms and shoulders? I know at least for the tennis stroke there's almost no tension in the arms, hands, and shoulders when executing the kinetic chain. Is it the same here? And with that being said does the club path just kinda slot in once you have that understanding? Again, for the tennis stroke once you know to let loose and treat your shoulder and below like a whip your stroke just kinda falls in place, and then all your power comes from your leg, hip and trunk lagged rotation.
We really don't have any way of measuring for tension, but my guess would be they'd describe it as feeling very little. Love how you are relating these movements to other sports. There is a lot of gold at the end of that rainbow. Don't let anyone tell convince you to stop doing it😉
What would be the feeling/intention you would give to the AM to get the right shoulder moving correctly?
A sequence fairly foreign to many golfers is the arms coming down without the shoulders popping up and the spine tilting away. We gave him the feel of the arms initially moving independently of the shoulders rotating or tilting.
It's about proper lower body moment, specifically staying down through the ball by introducting back leg flex through the start of the down swing.
Club plane is also very steep and over the top in amateur golfers. Needs work at shallowing club through down swing with correct elbow drive. Probably also has bad back swing which leads to poor positioning at the top on the swing.
Would be nice to see club angle at the top of the back swing to see exactly what's actually going on with each golfer
So, how do you do this?
Excellent video again Mike!
What would be the best drill for shoulder plane movement in sync with the downward hand path?
Get to the top of your backswing... without moving your shoulders, not allowing them to rotate or change tilt, drop your arms. Those are the two motions in isolation. After your comfortable feeling them in isolation. Start adding some motion to it.
Athletic Motion Golf thanks Mike!
Athletic Motion Golf isn’t this what we call the pump drill?
Not if we're thinking of the same pump drill.
Athletic Motion Golf 🤔🤔hopefully u will be able to demonstrate in one of your future videos 🤞🏻. Frankly, this one is too difficult for me to visualise or understand 😳.
What’s going on to make that right shoulder move back/down like it is during the early downswing for the pros? Early shift to the left before the rotation?
Squatting down into the shot
Arm motion
There isn't a squat when that's happening.
In your opinion does tilt switch (i.e. moving from left side bend to right side bend) a factor in that, or is it just the hands going away from the target and down? Great vid! (edit) I think that was answered as a no below, arms down below the shoulder plane and then it's on. Which is interesting as it kinda spans different things said by different instructors that sound conflicting but are not necessarily so...
Michael Williams the problem with the “tilt switch” idea (if I understand what you’re saying correctly) doesn’t happen in the transition but much later in the downswing with good players. But we see it all the time with so many ams. The spine NOT tilting back in the transition is what allows these good players to move the shoulders this way. We’ve done a number of vids on what I guess would be the anti-tilt switch move these players do.
What movement happens when you say the pro "moves down and away" to initiate the downswing? Does this mean the there is a relative shoulder motion occurring due to the torso rotation and side flexion with minimal actual shoulder movement initially?
As far as the shoulder goes, think of it as the opposite of a shoulder shrug.
That's the question I wanted to ask, but didn't know how to word it! The reply makes sense of it, thanks.
This is related to "tilt switch" correct? Seems like most ams just immediately dip the right shoulder to get that right tilt on the transition because they're so scared of OTT. Or, at least that's what I do, lol.
Yep, that's a very common move we see all the time out of transition.
1:33 Looks like the am’s torso and left shoulder stall out relative to the pro’s. So that the am’s shoulder rises and breaks above the plane. KOD.
How often do you see that shallowing/dropping move being over done, especially better players?
Not sure we have.
This makes sense to me and the first thing I am aware of here is if you watch how far the left shoulder is away from the chin in the turn with the Pro while the Am crowds his chin with his left shoulder. His chin is tucked into it.. Although I can hit the ball long my dispersion is a little wild. I know my chin tucks into my left shoulder because I have tried either letting it tuck or I have tried raising my chin to let my left shoulder keep turning under it. An issue I have is that my left arm breaks down and wraps further around me than it should although it allows for great distance but my timing has to be bang on.
I just tried it in the mirror and if you feel the sensation of pushing the left shoulder away from your chin in the turn, you can get the Pro look in the turn and I'm thinking this will allow for better turn without the left arm collapsing because it isn't getting restricted in the back swing by left shoulder getting hung up in my chin. Get up and try it in the mirror and you will instantly "Get it!" This could easily be a video about the LEFT shoulder movement rather than the right. I'm looking forward to trying this at the range today.
Great observation and feel there, 1 Putt💪
Thanks AMG! I also notice that when you mention the Am quickly rotating trying to unleash power (something I do when my timing is off and it feels like I'm pulling the trigger before I get set at the top) the Pro's shoulder plane is lowering equally as he is using the ground to build torque before unloading into the shot. Am's are more likely to spin back and spin through using arm power rather than torque and turn power without using the ground as we should. Great to see comparisons.
So whats the best way to do this?
Alright so said another way, the right shoulder replaces the space the left shoulder occupied through impact essentially working on the same shoulder plane. How's that for a simple practice swing thought?
We just might steal that😉
That is very intersting.
I just got the cast off a broken left wrist and I can't cup it anymore, so hopefully I'll be hitting the ball like DJ now.
If that works out, there might be more guys breaking their own wrists, lol
The lowering of the left shoulder in the backswing was the most valuable thing I learned from this. It greatly increased my ball striking and accuracy, so thanks~!
Is this right shoulder action applicable to both woods and irons. Assuming that “centering” might be an issue for irons Please help
Awesome!-first time viewer
Thanks! And we really appreciate you taking the time to watch👍
I think the position of the right forearm at the top is driving a lot of differences. The pro has his right forearm nearly vertical which helps to bow his left wrist. The am has his right elbow further back creating a 'chicken-wing' position which persists through the downswing. In the video the pro has an open triangle at the top of the backswing while the amateur does not. This is a great video.
cool observation!
so many moving parts...literally...still struggling with what to "make" happen vs "let" happen in the golf swing
If I’m correct, be pro movement is the result of an immediate shift in pressure to the left foot in transition and a slight squat as a result of external rotation of the left knee and separation of the lower and upper body. Once that has completed to around left arm parallel, he begins driving his right side through whilst the left leg straightens. It’s a clear sequence of squat/pressure shift/separation, and then rotation. Whereas the amateur never does the first move, and instead just rotates.
Do the hands get above the right shoulder at the top of the backswing? Or is that an illusion due to the shoulder tilt and rotation?
They will for most 👍
I throw my right shoulder at the ball, causing over the top, etc.. I can't seem to change it :(
Hey love your videos. I feel like this is a major fault of mine but want to see it in action. Where would I put a sticker to track the movement and what do you recommend for a camera angle. Thanks.
Tyler McMahon behind and off the left hip is a good angle to see the right shoulder movement 👍
I have very sincere question. Is dropping the arms in downswing a very important swing thought? I mean is this also very heloful for shallowing the club etc? Is this something golfers do and obtain great results or is this something for a short cut for someone who comes over the top etc? Thank you
Lowering the arms must happen to effectively shallow the club. Some players do it without ever having thought about it. Many players don’t do it either because it was never learned or they worked in trying to keep the arms up. Those players will have to make an effort to learn/re-learn the movement until it becomes habit so they dont have to think about it.😉
@@AthleticMotionGolf Thank you. My two coaches advised me to drop my arms. (I have the habit of rushing my arms in downswing and have less rotation towards the impact even the ball contact is relatively good) I know from my own practice that dropping the arms was useful and created even sometime great flush shots, but because I am not used to do it, I usually do not apply. I think I shall apply more frequently.
I noticed that the pros wrist at the top of his swing are hinged inwards and the am is outwards.
Good observation. There is certainly a difference between these two plays with the wrists, but there are pros who have wrist angles like both of these golfers... Freddy Couples would be an example of a pro with those wrist angles.
The pros left arm is almost parallel to the ground from hand drop before the loaded shoulders even begin to unwind?
Yep, they don't leave the arm up and turn like so many seem to be trying to do these days.
So are you saying that the pro starts an hand/arm movement downwards during the weight shift forward and then starts rotation? And the am instead starts rotation of his shoulder too early?
Would love to hear a reply to this question from AMG
So many great players hands first move on downswing is the hands moving out towards the ball or between the feet and ball, Hogan and Snead but the shaft flattens out.
If you can find a good down the line angle, you'll see the first couple inches of hand path move sharply down not out with them. That's what we're saying. It's not an extended period of time especially with a player like Hogan who's hands are already under the shoulders at the top. If your hands are that low at the top, you've stayed very close to the plane already.
Athletic Motion Golf Not true the first foot or more is moving out not down, look at Wayne DeFrancesco videos on Hogan or Snead.
This is a huge problem for me right now what is the move I need to do instead of firing/turning shoulder? Is it swing with arms turn late?
Scroll the video to 3.12 this shows you how far the pros hands and arms have dropped before he starts turning the shoulders.
The pro never really gets out of his posture, and I do sometimes. Seeing this video shows me that I don't have to over work the back swing.
If the amateur is thinking turn what is the pro thinking to get his shoulders to move down like that in transition? Well i know he's probably not actually thinking about it, but what should the amateur think to do what the pro is doing?
Thinking (then feeling) that he needed to get his hands under his shoulder turn.
Fascinated by this (obviously) - so the idea is sync getting the hands under the shoulder plane before the hands move out as the upper body rotation picks up steam?
Fire your right elbow to the hip.....FIRST
yes
Getting hands to be under the shoulder will only occur with great consistency if you are teaching proper lower body movements. The more you neglect proper lower body movement, amateurs will continue to stand too upright which only promotes over the top and "pulling" hard with the arms from the top.
AMG is great stuff. Technology has let us see what is “actually” happening, rather than what we “thought” was happening or tried to describe. However!!! until they develop true avatars like in the movies. We will never actually know what it truly “feels” like to do these movements. The golf swing continues to be one of the greatest mysteries in the universe. Could you imagine “avataring” yourself into one of those pro swing! Well - then everyone would know “how” to do it and be a pro and it wouldnt be so special!
how do you teach this?