boy you have me so intrigued now. I've always tapped at 20m/min (vc) for steel (I was told that by a guy once and never tried anything else), but when I work out your theory, and going off some basic formula, it works out ranging from 20-25m/min for all the common size taps I use (m5 to m24). I was so surprised. Basically, I'm right on the money for smaller taps, but it means I should be able to speed up my larger taps maybe 25% faster... very interesting.
Hmm, never thought of tapping like that. I've always calculated the feed/speed based of surface speed. Quality brands publish the SFM to run the tap at for whatever material and its way higher that most people would think of running them. That said it is a really good rule of thumb no mater how you calculate your speeds, if your IPM is way off say 5 ipm in carbon steel you know to double check the maths. Also I totally agree, almost everyone will start to slow things down when it's not working or they want to be 'careful' but a lot of the time that's actually the exact opposite of what you should do. Bad finish or carry tap life on threads is commonly caused by going way to slow so try going faster. I tapped a pile of 3/4" NC holes in some 1" thick AR500 and as per the manufacture I ran them at 20 SFM (around 10IPM) and got around 50 holes with one tap and it still looked fine and probably would still do another 25 or so holes. I've also used some less good taps ('quality import') and they just don't work worth a shit no mater the speed, buy good taps and run them at the right speed and it's way cheaper than cheap taps at the wrong speed.
Who makes good taps? I'm far from a machinist and don't know very many, but I'd rather spend money than waste time. I just don't know enough about the industry.
@@aycentroid I Like guhring, but that doesn't mean they're better than the rest, that's just the higher end taps that my local supplier sells, and I've had great success with them. I did a job a while back, had to tap a couple of hundred holes 1/4" BSPT, I did about a hundred or so with one tap from my normal supplier, but it dulled out on a sunday morning and nowhere decent was open so all I could get to finish the job was Sutton from the local hardware store, I ended up going through 5 of them to finish the job for monday morning delivery. went from around 32c per hole to well over a dollar per hole... I know sutton do make some OK Jobber-type stuff, but the stuff they sell at general hardware stores is absolute crap.
Awesome Peter. Your fixtures look like art to me. Very creative approach to the intellectual property clauses in most of your work. Thank you for sharing. Cheers,ed.
I’ve found that the pecking isn’t too bad for larger taps but not on the spiral flute taps. The spiral ones need the chip to “flow” out the top unbroken. If you break the chip with the spiral it doesn’t restart correctly and can get bound up. Easy test is to do a 1/4-20 with a spiral flute by hand and break the chip. You’ll immediately feel it start to bind up. I think the new chips start trying to push the broken ones out and they bind. Awesome info on the speeds/feeds. Thanks
If you have trouble wringing joe blocks (or gauge blocks) together, try running the block against your nose or the inside of your wrist. Or just use your finger and wipe the skin oil on the block. They will wring together properly and won't come apart nearly as easily.
muy buen trabajo peter..en mi taller suelo usar machos de la marca dormer y de la marca emugle..en plan mas economico los uso tambien de la marca española IZAR y de gurling..un saludo
Thank you Peter. Your timing is perfect. We've been having some tapping issues at work and you've given me some excellent info. When is PECK TAPPING required?
@@ccfoam You'll still get chip buildup in the flutes on any deep hole. I was always told, anything over 1.5xD you need to peck. but it really depends on the size of the thread and the amount of material you're removing. If In doubt, peck it. otherwise pucker up and go.
Another point. We keep taps separate, according to what material they have been run in. Don't ask why as I don't know but the life span of them is tremendously increased. We also don't use the guideline formulas for tapping, plenty of tapping fluid and slower (like you say many do, guilty) taps last a long time.
It’s the reversing of a tap that is hard on it. I have tapped thru holes with a form tap that didn’t require a thru thread. But taps kept breaking after so many holes. We changed the program to tap all the way thru before reversing the tap. Didn’t break a single tap after that.
@@EdgePrecision I've always had much better luck with form taps in tough materials. That is after I figured out they take a larger hole ; ) I'm on manual machines though. Thanks for always sharing your expertise Peter!
What does keep the turnung tool from rotating when it's cutting? Is there a mechanical locking mechanism or is it just the holding power of the servo motor tha holds it firm?
This machine has a special coupling in the front of the spindle. When clamped it keeps the spindle from rotating and takes all the load off the milling spindles bearings. It has the ability to orient and clamp every 15 degrees. So you can turn toward the chuck reorient the tool and turn away. Or position the B axis horizontal and orient and bore with the same tool. If you wanted.
Hi Peter, thanks for the video. I am wondering why you spun the chuck instead of the spindle for the drilling op at around the 1:20 mark? I would have thought that you would just drill normally. Cheers
There are two ways you can drill on the center of rotation on this machine. With the turning spindle as on a lathe or of course with the milling spindle it can drill anywhere. As far as this program in the cam software it uses the last selections on the drilling cycle. I forgot to change it to the tool rotating instead of the part rotating. When I ran the program it kind of startled me at first because I was intending to drill with the milling spindle. It does show the chuck rotating in the cam's stimulation but I must not have been paying attention when I ran it. Or I would have changed it. In reality on centerline it doesn't matter unless the drill has to turn more than 1600 rpm. Or the part cant turn that fast because of balance/chucking issues. That's the max speed of the turning spindle.
@@EdgePrecision Oh I see, I thought it was a special method you had experimented with. Thank you for the quick response - much appreciated and keep up the excellent work!
1/ pitch x rpm = feed rate for tapping orrrrr you can just go g95 and set your feed rate in IPM. So for 3/4-10 it would be 1/10=.1 G84 x y z r f.1 (Q) added if pecking required
A superb video as always, of all videos your fixture videos are my favourite. When setting the tool offsets with the gauge pin, is it always best to set them when the B axis is the same orientation as you intend to do the actual work? Does doing so make the inputting of the offsets easier or is there another reason?
It is possible to set the offset on a milling tool on a face turned to Z zero. Than use the tool on the OD or at any angle. In this setup I knew the diameter of the bar and the milling tools were going to work with B at 90 degrees so I set them there. In the next video you see me setting turning tool on the face and the OD. A turning tool has two length offsets X and Z (Lengths A and B on the Mazatrol Control). I like to set a offset in the orientation the tools is working if possible. A 5 axis tool this may not be possible so setting in either with B at 0 or 90 degrees is OK. The Mazatrol shows you the tip location of the tool in the spindle at any B axis orientation in relation to the active fixture offset. G54 being the default when pushing reset. This makes it very easy to manually set the offset. Unlike some controls. On them you have to actually call the offset or subtract the length of the machine location from the fixture offset where you are touching off on.
@@EdgePrecision interesting thanks Peter. Your videos are what really started my interest in CNC machining, I'm 5 weeks into a night school course in CAD CAM
Peter, what are your thoughts on Thread Milling? (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying you should use that method) Just curious what you believe the pros and cons are.
On the Mazak I will always thread mill before tapping if possible. The pros an cons. Thread milling has more control of size and finish. It also can get closer to a blind holes bottom. But it takes more time than tapping. If you break a thread mill it’s inconvenient but can more easily recovered from than a broken tap.
I am curious, how did you determine that the table of your center support was at the right height so that your plate would match up with the center? I hope I described that right for you. Charles
I will be address this in a future video. But the short answer is I modeled it in cad so there will be stock to machine away. After the fixture is mounted and aligned in the machine. To bring it to a precision location.
I see you use aluminium on your "table" and the end support. Its stiff enough to not cause vibrations? In what cases would you rather go for steel alloy in the plate ?
When you see the finished fixture you will see that in this case aluminum is going to be fine. In fact I have already mill some of the parts and everything is working. I did use steel for the edge stiffeners.
Never had this issue with a spiral tap and I've tapped in every material going. Take drill tolerance to 0.1mm before top limit. Chamfer or ball mill before use. Straight taps are designed to push cuttings through, hence why they are best for through holes.
I always break those spiral flute taps. When you get past 1/2" they are better. But down to m4 is really no fun. Break at least one every time it seems
@@EdgePrecision ah, so pecking is notorious for issues. That's why it's never an option. If we are worried about snapping, then we use a roll tap. But it's rare we do, M3 M4 M5 in some cases.
On the Mazak whenever I can. Because the machine wont run with the doors open to add any oil or blow the shavings off the tap. But in general on any machine I thread mill if the material is hard to tap or the full thread has to very close to the holes bottom on a blind hole.
Awesome . It's a shame we don't utilize the full potential of the mazak integex machines . Ether in Mazatrol or G code . I know it's 5 axis with capto tooling . 12 or 15" chuck 400 Y . I program and run a 200 y fusion but we have a new I200 smooth control.
That's why they call them Mill Turn (Not Turn Mill) machines. They are really a milling machine that does turning. For some reason people that get these machines do mostly turning on them. It's like you say they don't get the full potential out of the machine.
I’m not sure, are you referring to the mechanical expanding gauges typically used to measure bores with, as a reference gauge? Or are you referring to a dial gauge set on the gauge blocks? If the dial indicator type set on the gauge blocks, yes that could be good. I don’t have such a dial gauge for outside measurements.
I do have the large one done. I haven't been able to get to the smaller two that came off that same forging. There are many things I haven't been able to get to lately. Sorry I do want to complete that.
Pretty much any tool supply house. Maybe even on Amazon. For wood work a less expensive grade would be acceptable. M set I use in the shop in this video are 81 piece Grade B Square ones. The rectangle sets are more economical. The more precision sets can be very expensive. Not really necessary for woodworking applications.
@@Sicktrickintuner Yeah, I think the cheapest square set I've found was $500. I'm still researching and looking but it does appear I'll be purchasing a rectangular set instead to save ~$350 or so.
I usually drill them out. Down to around a 4-40 thread that's possible. Below that in size EDM would be best. In aluminum there is a special acid that dissolves the steel but not the aluminum. But every time I have tried it, I haven't had much success.
Wouldn't it be incredibly helpful if all of these CNC machines had 3d situational awareness? That is, they always knew where any part of the machinery was and the software could prevent crashes? Here we are, well into the computer age and we still don't have crash proof machinery! This is absolutely ridiculous!
What timing, Peter! I enjoy your videos any time but right after dinner is all the better.
boy you have me so intrigued now. I've always tapped at 20m/min (vc) for steel (I was told that by a guy once and never tried anything else), but when I work out your theory, and going off some basic formula, it works out ranging from 20-25m/min for all the common size taps I use (m5 to m24). I was so surprised. Basically, I'm right on the money for smaller taps, but it means I should be able to speed up my larger taps maybe 25% faster... very interesting.
Hmm, never thought of tapping like that. I've always calculated the feed/speed based of surface speed. Quality brands publish the SFM to run the tap at for whatever material and its way higher that most people would think of running them. That said it is a really good rule of thumb no mater how you calculate your speeds, if your IPM is way off say 5 ipm in carbon steel you know to double check the maths.
Also I totally agree, almost everyone will start to slow things down when it's not working or they want to be 'careful' but a lot of the time that's actually the exact opposite of what you should do. Bad finish or carry tap life on threads is commonly caused by going way to slow so try going faster. I tapped a pile of 3/4" NC holes in some 1" thick AR500 and as per the manufacture I ran them at 20 SFM (around 10IPM) and got around 50 holes with one tap and it still looked fine and probably would still do another 25 or so holes.
I've also used some less good taps ('quality import') and they just don't work worth a shit no mater the speed, buy good taps and run them at the right speed and it's way cheaper than cheap taps at the wrong speed.
Who makes good taps? I'm far from a machinist and don't know very many, but I'd rather spend money than waste time. I just don't know enough about the industry.
@@aycentroid I’ve had good success with OSG or emuge. Maybe a good economy tap is greenfield.
@@justinmoritz6543 Agreed, had great luck Emuge.
@@aycentroid ya emuge, osg, walter, yamawa, dormer, and the list goes on... anything with a data sheet and a rep to back it up will be pretty good.
@@aycentroid I Like guhring, but that doesn't mean they're better than the rest, that's just the higher end taps that my local supplier sells, and I've had great success with them.
I did a job a while back, had to tap a couple of hundred holes 1/4" BSPT, I did about a hundred or so with one tap from my normal supplier, but it dulled out on a sunday morning and nowhere decent was open so all I could get to finish the job was Sutton from the local hardware store, I ended up going through 5 of them to finish the job for monday morning delivery. went from around 32c per hole to well over a dollar per hole... I know sutton do make some OK Jobber-type stuff, but the stuff they sell at general hardware stores is absolute crap.
Awesome Peter. Your fixtures look like art to me. Very creative approach to the intellectual property clauses in most of your work. Thank you for sharing. Cheers,ed.
Nicely done another great looking fixture almost complete.
What a beautiful fit! I loved watching that go in there. Thanks for the useful thoughts on tapping. I'm grateful for your excellent videos.
I’ve found that the pecking isn’t too bad for larger taps but not on the spiral flute taps. The spiral ones need the chip to “flow” out the top unbroken. If you break the chip with the spiral it doesn’t restart correctly and can get bound up. Easy test is to do a 1/4-20 with a spiral flute by hand and break the chip. You’ll immediately feel it start to bind up. I think the new chips start trying to push the broken ones out and they bind. Awesome info on the speeds/feeds. Thanks
I can understand how that can happen.
Yep, my thoughts exactly, ive done that with spiral flute taps. And it does bind much more
Awesome video can’t wait to see the rest of this fixture coming together
Nice job Peter, you got a great fit on those pieces!
Thank you for your CNC tapping advice.
Awesome as usual Peter, thanks for sharing!
Thanks. I knew I was tapping too slow, but wasn't sure how fast to go.
Amazing work once again Peter 👍👍
Awesome work as always !
If you have trouble wringing joe blocks (or gauge blocks) together, try running the block against your nose or the inside of your wrist. Or just use your finger and wipe the skin oil on the block. They will wring together properly and won't come apart nearly as easily.
There he goes again. Uses more metal in a single fixture than I have actually used in the past year !!
Big parts = big scrap drops
muy buen trabajo peter..en mi taller suelo usar machos de la marca dormer y de la marca emugle..en plan mas economico los uso tambien de la marca española IZAR y de gurling..un saludo
Thank you Peter. Your timing is perfect. We've been having some tapping issues at work and you've given me some excellent info. When is PECK TAPPING required?
When you have the tap fully engaged into the material and the swarf has nowhere else to go.
@@Sicktrickintuner So there would be no reason to peck tap a through hole, right?
@@ccfoam You'll still get chip buildup in the flutes on any deep hole. I was always told, anything over 1.5xD you need to peck. but it really depends on the size of the thread and the amount of material you're removing. If In doubt, peck it. otherwise pucker up and go.
Another point. We keep taps separate, according to what material they have been run in. Don't ask why as I don't know but the life span of them is tremendously increased. We also don't use the guideline formulas for tapping, plenty of tapping fluid and slower (like you say many do, guilty) taps last a long time.
It’s the reversing of a tap that is hard on it. I have tapped thru holes with a form tap that didn’t require a thru thread. But taps kept breaking after so many holes. We changed the program to tap all the way thru before reversing the tap. Didn’t break a single tap after that.
@@EdgePrecision I've always had much better luck with form taps in tough materials. That is after I figured out they take a larger hole ; ) I'm on manual machines though. Thanks for always sharing your expertise Peter!
That machine you are running is "Off The Charts"!
You're a legend 😎
good value about tapping. thanks.
What does keep the turnung tool from rotating when it's cutting? Is there a mechanical locking mechanism or is it just the holding power of the servo motor tha holds it firm?
This machine has a special coupling in the front of the spindle. When clamped it keeps the spindle from rotating and takes all the load off the milling spindles bearings. It has the ability to orient and clamp every 15 degrees. So you can turn toward the chuck reorient the tool and turn away. Or position the B axis horizontal and orient and bore with the same tool. If you wanted.
Very good job peter
Hi Peter, thanks for the video. I am wondering why you spun the chuck instead of the spindle for the drilling op at around the 1:20 mark? I would have thought that you would just drill normally. Cheers
There are two ways you can drill on the center of rotation on this machine. With the turning spindle as on a lathe or of course with the milling spindle it can drill anywhere. As far as this program in the cam software it uses the last selections on the drilling cycle. I forgot to change it to the tool rotating instead of the part rotating. When I ran the program it kind of startled me at first because I was intending to drill with the milling spindle. It does show the chuck rotating in the cam's stimulation but I must not have been paying attention when I ran it. Or I would have changed it. In reality on centerline it doesn't matter unless the drill has to turn more than 1600 rpm. Or the part cant turn that fast because of balance/chucking issues. That's the max speed of the turning spindle.
@@EdgePrecision Oh I see, I thought it was a special method you had experimented with. Thank you for the quick response - much appreciated and keep up the excellent work!
1/ pitch x rpm = feed rate for tapping orrrrr you can just go g95 and set your feed rate in IPM. So for 3/4-10 it would be 1/10=.1
G84 x y z r f.1 (Q) added if pecking required
Nice nice :) like it.Nice to see other cutting machine operators :) .... any Infos about your machine ... thanks.
Did you fix yiur chip conveyer Peter?
Thank you Peter!
A superb video as always, of all videos your fixture videos are my favourite. When setting the tool offsets with the gauge pin, is it always best to set them when the B axis is the same orientation as you intend to do the actual work? Does doing so make the inputting of the offsets easier or is there another reason?
It is possible to set the offset on a milling tool on a face turned to Z zero. Than use the tool on the OD or at any angle. In this setup I knew the diameter of the bar and the milling tools were going to work with B at 90 degrees so I set them there. In the next video you see me setting turning tool on the face and the OD. A turning tool has two length offsets X and Z (Lengths A and B on the Mazatrol Control). I like to set a offset in the orientation the tools is working if possible. A 5 axis tool this may not be possible so setting in either with B at 0 or 90 degrees is OK. The Mazatrol shows you the tip location of the tool in the spindle at any B axis orientation in relation to the active fixture offset. G54 being the default when pushing reset. This makes it very easy to manually set the offset. Unlike some controls. On them you have to actually call the offset or subtract the length of the machine location from the fixture offset where you are touching off on.
@@EdgePrecision interesting thanks Peter. Your videos are what really started my interest in CNC machining, I'm 5 weeks into a night school course in CAD CAM
nice ... cant wait to see the next steps ... :-)
Peter, what are your thoughts on Thread Milling? (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying you should use that method) Just curious what you believe the pros and cons are.
On the Mazak I will always thread mill before tapping if possible. The pros an cons. Thread milling has more control of size and finish. It also can get closer to a blind holes bottom. But it takes more time than tapping. If you break a thread mill it’s inconvenient but can more easily recovered from than a broken tap.
I am curious, how did you determine that the table of your center support was at the right height so that your plate would match up with the center? I hope I described that right for you. Charles
I will be address this in a future video. But the short answer is I modeled it in cad so there will be stock to machine away. After the fixture is mounted and aligned in the machine. To bring it to a precision location.
@@EdgePrecision Thanks, have a great week. Charles
I see you use aluminium on your "table" and the end support. Its stiff enough to not cause vibrations? In what cases would you rather go for steel alloy in the plate ?
When you see the finished fixture you will see that in this case aluminum is going to be fine. In fact I have already mill some of the parts and everything is working. I did use steel for the edge stiffeners.
@@EdgePrecision nice! Thanks for the reply
Never had this issue with a spiral tap and I've tapped in every material going. Take drill tolerance to 0.1mm before top limit. Chamfer or ball mill before use. Straight taps are designed to push cuttings through, hence why they are best for through holes.
We’re you peck tapping?
I always break those spiral flute taps. When you get past 1/2" they are better. But down to m4 is really no fun. Break at least one every time it seems
@@EdgePrecision No, not pecking. Big chuck tap holder and straight to depth if it is a closed hole. Straight through if it's a through hole.
@@richiejbhoy1888 I was relating it to pecking with smaller spiral flute taps in tougher materials. If your not pecking you wouldn’t have a problem.
@@EdgePrecision ah, so pecking is notorious for issues. That's why it's never an option. If we are worried about snapping, then we use a roll tap. But it's rare we do, M3 M4 M5 in some cases.
You're the best Peter! Thanks!
Also, is this thing direct drive on the head? Or is there a motor in the structure with a transmission/belts/right angle drive/etc/etc?
The milling spindle is the motors shaft. Direct drive 50 hp. The turning spindle has a two speed gear box. With a 60 hp motor.
@@EdgePrecision thank you!
That's pretty amazing. Crashing that spindle with any consequence has to cost a fortune.
Nice discussion on tapping!
When do you go with thread milling instead?
On the Mazak whenever I can. Because the machine wont run with the doors open to add any oil or blow the shavings off the tap. But in general on any machine I thread mill if the material is hard to tap or the full thread has to very close to the holes bottom on a blind hole.
Awesome . It's a shame we don't utilize the full potential of the mazak integex machines . Ether in Mazatrol or G code . I know it's 5 axis with capto tooling . 12 or 15" chuck 400 Y . I program and run a 200 y fusion but we have a new I200 smooth control.
That's why they call them Mill Turn (Not Turn Mill) machines. They are really a milling machine that does turning. For some reason people that get these machines do mostly turning on them. It's like you say they don't get the full potential out of the machine.
I can see you dont want to give up all your tricks. True tools makers counter bore the back side of the hole as well lol
For something that fussy would a snap gauge be better than a micrometer?
I’m not sure, are you referring to the mechanical expanding gauges typically used to measure bores with, as a reference gauge? Or are you referring to a dial gauge set on the gauge blocks? If the dial indicator type set on the gauge blocks, yes that could be good. I don’t have such a dial gauge for outside measurements.
Another awesome video Peter. Did you ever get the anvils done?
I do have the large one done. I haven't been able to get to the smaller two that came off that same forging. There are many things I haven't been able to get to lately. Sorry I do want to complete that.
I'd love to see a center drill that size.
I need one of these machines next to my apartment bathroom sink.
I need a set of gage blocks like that for my woodshop. Do you happen to know where I could get a set these days?
Pretty much any tool supply house. Maybe even on Amazon. For wood work a less expensive grade would be acceptable. M set I use in the shop in this video are 81 piece Grade B Square ones. The rectangle sets are more economical. The more precision sets can be very expensive. Not really necessary for woodworking applications.
@@EdgePrecision I'll eventually also use them for machine work but recently I realized a personal set would be extremely handy in the woodshop.
@@prototype3a get out the pocket book, they aren’t cheap. One small import set can easily be $700. Or really high end ones for a few thousand
@@Sicktrickintuner Yeah, I think the cheapest square set I've found was $500. I'm still researching and looking but it does appear I'll be purchasing a rectangular set instead to save ~$350 or so.
so this looks like it is kind of going to be a trunion table.
More or less a custom one specifically for this part.
what is the bet way to extract broken tap?
I usually drill them out. Down to around a 4-40 thread that's possible. Below that in size EDM would be best. In aluminum there is a special acid that dissolves the steel but not the aluminum. But every time I have tried it, I haven't had much success.
@@EdgePrecision Thanks Peter
if you ever have time can you do an in depth tap video?
Thanks. I will keep that in mind. Always looking for video ideas.
Excellent, thanks.
Man you gotta appreciate a piece of machining equipment you can stand in to measure parts.
Wouldn't it be incredibly helpful if all of these CNC machines had 3d situational awareness? That is, they always knew where any part of the machinery was and the software could prevent crashes?
Here we are, well into the computer age and we still don't have crash proof machinery!
This is absolutely ridiculous!
Hiya Peter
👍👍👍👍👍
Ок.
✋🏼🇦🇺👍🏼
Bout time u bring us some content....jk jk don't yell at me 😂