While a missionary in Bangkok, I got a panicked call one morning from a non-member friend who frantically told me there were riots going on in an area where I had an appointment that morning, and that people were being shot in the streets. I called the mission office, and was told that I should go ahead and attend the appointment, and that god would protect me from the bullets..... Fortunately, as I approached the area, the police forbade me to go any further, and told me to go home......
See, hearing stuff like that makes me seethe. Imagine telling a young person under your supervision to intentionally put themselves in danger for something that could easily be re-scheduled. Not that it's a priority, but the person you were meeting with may have been busy too and not in a state to meet with you anyways.
You’ve done an amazing job telling people what grooming is. “You chose so you can’t complain.” “You took the first step, you’re committed now.” “No one will believe you.” “You wanted this.” The louder religious people blame others, the more they’re revealing their own true selves.
The actresses were both raised Mormon. They pulled on their experiences growing up when they auditioned for their roles, and when they portrayed their characters.
As a former Jehovahs Witness woman and a mother, it enrages me how many times I was sent off alone with one of my little friends to knock on doors as a child and as a young girl/teen. We would be in larger groups but then would be sent off down the street or in scary apartment complexes alone without any kind of supervision. I’m actually shocked that I was never physically harmed.
If it makes you feel better assault and sexual abuse of children very rarely comes from strangers so while it's dangerous to send a child out knocking on doors, harm done by someone is a lot less likely than you would think
I'm not religious, but I am kind, and that's why whenever the younger mormons come around, I point out a house they should absolutely not knock on the door. The home owner is on a certain list, and it's not safe for the youths to knock on the door. The excuse I give is that he's stone deaf and won't answer the door. I also offer bottles of water and snacks, it gets hot here.
I sat next to a missionary on an airplane last year who was coming home from his mission after having his apartment broken into in the middle of the night and he was robbed at knife-point and beaten. He stayed on the mission a few months longer but the PTSD was so bad he had to go home. He was such a sweet kid and my heart broke for him.
@@chendaforest Looking the other way as usual…. Except for the truly faithful when he guides them to their lost keys when running late and saves them the best parking space in the rain or was on the side of their favorite team when they won or got them that promotion they wanted… 🙄🙄🙄
After I saw "Heretic", I was talking to my family about the ending in the theater. A very harried looking woman, alone, passed by our row and said "Were you raised Mormon?" We said "yes, how did you know? " She said she just guessed since we were so engaged in the plot. I said "I hope you didn't start this movie as a believer." She just shook her head and walked out looking so broken. I wish I had caught up to her and given her my number in case she needed a sounding board. Leaving the church is so traumatic.
I really liked the movie. One message that struck me was how we often under estimate women in general, but most of all women who present more feminine. But in reality the character is clever, thoughtful, observant and determined. She might have been fawning as a defense mechanism, but she was paying attention. She has a brain and she will use it.
I haven't watched this movie, but your description kinda reminds me of Anya Taylor Joy's character in The Menu. She's basically able to get out of a bad situation by fawning and paying attention.
I actually hated that I fawn in stressful situations, but this made me feel more empowered. It's not my choice, but it's not the terrible reaction I considered it as ❤
So funny story, my mom once accidentally held 2 JW missionaries hostage in our house for like 3 hours. So during the winter we do a LOT of baking and cooking. We live in a farming community, and as the only non-working farm in the area instead of sharing crops or things gathered from livestock we cook a bunch with all the gifts and share it with our neighbors. Anyway these JW missionaries show up at the door, and because it was snowing and cold as hell my mom invited them in and offered them some warm drinks and let them know the snow should stop soon if they would like to wait. They started asking us all the religious questions, and my mom was like "Oh no thank you we're Satanists". She started going off on this LONG rant about all the inconsistencies in the bible, how crazy the weather was, and just kept putting freshly baked goods in front of them. They did eat a strudel, pet our dog a bit, and politely listened to my mom rant on and on while I was stuck doing all the baking 😂. Finally my mom stopped ranting, said "Oh look the snow has stopped, I'm sure you boys have far more important things to do than listen to me prattle on, would you like some soup or anything to take with you?" They skedaddeled out of our house so damn fast, and we haven't had JW missionaries come to the house since! That was 15 years ago 😅
He was a sneaky but somewhat funny villain in Dungeons and Dragons. So he’s good at different types of evil. I think they are giving him better written characters to play now that he is getting older
Actually (former mormon here) i tried to tell my dad I wasnt ready yet, when i was 8 and about to get baptized. and he made it very clear I'd be basically disowned if I didnt make the choice he wanted me to. It was clear my "choice" in it didnt matter. Whatever choice i supposedly had was made by my parents when i was born.
I was raised strict catholic. By the time I hit 8th grade I knew I wasn’t catholic. I was reading about other religions and beliefs. My guardian found the books and started screaming at me. One of the books was about the history of paganism. She started screaming I was going to go in the backyard and sacrifice the dog we had. Still remember that quote nearly 2 decades later. She told me I am catholic, I’m doing confirmation, and that was the end of discussion. Confirmation for Catholics is the summer after 8th grade btw. She slowly ended up being more open minded. But after I started having kids, she got very pushy about baptizing them. I never did. But to this day she tells me she prays for me every night and hopes I find god again (of course her god lol.)
@silllykitten329 my mom does a similar thing about praying for me every time something goes wrong (i lose a job, go to the ER etc.) I have learned to just kind of go "thanks mom" and change the subject... That really sucks about how your mom freaked out. I feel like they dont realize sometimes how much more traumatizing it is to do and say things like that rather than just being understanding and maybe hoping you choose her beliefs.
I can relate to this! When I was a teen, I questioned my religion for a short period of time (I’ve since left religion completely). During that period I didn’t feel comfortable taking communion as I thought it would be disrespectful to my faith and the people who truly believed in it. I didn’t discuss it with anyone ahead of time, but when they passed the communion plate around the congregation, I simply passed it along without taking anything. My parents were horrified. More embarrassed than anything else I think, but I felt so terrible. I was trying to be respectful of the faith, but not one person in my congregation saw it that way. The realization that my community was more interested in me appearing to agree with them, than the actual “condition of my heart” has never left me.
Are you all American? Because I Was raised catholic in Europe and I don't know anyone with such a Story. Most people my age are lapsed catholics (never officially left, but not pracrising either) or proudly Atheist. When I Was doubting my faith and wanted to look at other Religions, my very devout mom took me to the library and Temples and Churches close by. In Our equivalent of sunday school, other Religions and even Atheist ethics were discussed positivly. I Start to wonder of that is a culture thing instead of a Religion thing ...
@i.b.640 i think it does depend on where you live. Im a mormon personally (or i guess i was most of my life) and can say this is a huge issue in america and canada. I do however feel like its kind of a mixture of cultural and religious issue. I think america has a very culty mindset about a lot of belief systems not just religion, and we take things like feelings and opinions very personally here. I think that kind of thinking can lead to things like religious culture snowballing into somwthing much more toxic here than in other countries for sure.
It absolutely reminded me of the last time Mormon guys came to my door and through the screen started off with "Is that a bernese mountain dog?" I at the time lived in a slightly dangerous neighborhood alone so having someone come right up to my door and peg my dogs breed immediately put me on high alert but then it went right into "my uncle loves those. Do you have any interest in learning about the afterlife?"
Another metaphor I was thinking about was actually the weather. The weather outside is a metaphor for the outside world/peoples lives. At first when they are at his doorstep its raining pretty hard and theyre getting soaked, and so that is a contributing factor to why they came into his house without fully verifying he had a wife. This goes back to the proselytizing to people after a natural disaster, when they are vulnerable they are more likely to "come inside". It shows the weather worsening as time goes by and that it was beginning to snow. After finding out the door is locked, they have a conversation about if they should try to find a way out and leave without their coats because they'd have to walk back miles in the snow. This makes them decide to go deeper into the house to try to get their coats (finding reasons not to leave, even when they are beginning to question, because of the fear/ consequences). At the end when she gets outside, the weather is no longer so cold and harsh, but its bright and sunny, even with snow still on the ground, and the fresh morning light shining down around her, the new day symbolizing a fresh start and freedom. I think the butterfly also adds to the sense of freedom.
They actually do decide to leave without their coats and bikes, but are trapped by the lock. They venture further back into the house because they have no other option. So that is all part of the "illusion of choice" narrative. I was so relived when they decided to brave the snow and try the door, knowing they would be leaving their coats and bikes behind. Otherwise it would be such a classic, dumb horror movie mistake. Aside from maybe letting the uncomfortable chit-chat without a wife present go on for too long (which is not surprising for missionaries), they really make very sound decisions along the way and are truly forced into this situation. It really drives home the point of manufactured consent.
Something I also loved about the weather in the beginning (and the freezing room at the end) is that it also parallels the weather described in Dante’s Inferno (windy/rainy transitioning into ‘eternal winter’, etc), with the descent ending in satans icy lair. Esp with the full shot of Reed’s Inferno poster, it feels like they were def drawing some parallels there
Wow I never thought that as an ex-muslim (never really believed but I was raised in it as a child) that I could relate to an ex-mormon. Your breakdown of the movie, though I've not seen it, is fantastic. The gender roles, for example, sounds spot on for religion. Not saying anything about Islam necessarily, but the way I was raised really showed this. Even now, I still face this issue; I am dating a Christian and my mum still does not accept it and she still refers to her religion as "our religion" or "us muslims" despite me telling her I'm atheist. Meanwhile, my boy cousins can go around dating whoever they want and bring them to the family functions... Religion, from my experience, really is in the hands of men, men have so much power. The depiction of the doors leading to the same place is chilling. It's a stark reminder that whether you're atheist or religious, you're going to the same place; I interpret this as death. We will all die, but we will never ever know if religion is correct. So far, the only thing we know is that life and death is real, and we're all headed in one direction. Religion does feel like such a trap mentally, from what I went through and still face from people in my life today. I relate to a lot of your experiences. Thanks! Glad I found your channel.
There's a chat by another ex Mormon and an ex Muslim guy called apostate aladdin on his channel, it goes into that topic a bit more and is very interesting.
@@alyssadgrenfell your dads blessing to be a teacher has in the end, turned out to be true. You are teaching all of us the truth about LDS and I’m loving it. Please, don’t stop teaching and showing us the truth
@@alyssadgrenfell Hey I have a few questions! How often do missionaries go door to door vs making an appointment first? I have heard that missionaries use social media a lot nowadays to create contacts. Are folks still at home anymore during the day or do more people work?
The joke with the male missionary coming back to the door works so well because at that point, if I remember rightly, the audience doesn't know Mr Reed has moved the bikes - you're supposed to think that's what he's spotted, and then instead he whips out the pamphlets. The ending is deliberately ambiguous, for sure. Anyone telling you it's for sure one or the other is lying! It's like The Thing, or Inception - the point is not to know
I was really confused when people say you weren't supposed to know with Inception: kids that age grow like beanpoles, there is no way both the kids wouldn't have changed one bit (one kid having a bit of a growth stall isn't that weird, but both nope). I don't remember now but there were multiple other things that pointed at him just being locked in a dream. The ending seemed obvious, just merely ominous.
Regarding the ending, the butterfly. The way it's framed, I think is the important part. The cinematography is brilliant. We initially see her looking at the butterfly on her finger, but when the camera pulls back over her shoulder (or from her perspective) her finger is still extended as if the butterfly is there, but it's gone. We don't see it fly off. We go from a shot where we see she clearly see's the butterfly, then we're pulled back to see just her hand framed in the shot with the butterfly missing. It leaves me feeling like the message is it doesn't matter if the butterfly is real, the hope it inspires regardless, is. Spirituality good, Dogma bad.
As an ex-catholic, I appreciated that this movie was not just another Catholic horror film. Your interpretations are spot on. I love a24 films. I watched Conclave last week, speaking of Catholic films, and that one was pretty good if you are looking for a movie to watch. The ending was not expected!
Catholicism has so much beautiful imagery/iconography, I think it translates well to film. I think that may be a (shallow! 😅) reason why it gets used so much in horror movies.
@@BouncyBrowncatholic churches are so pretty inside. As you say, there is a lot of beautiful imagery, even some of the stories are interesting. My son went to a catholic school Our Lady of Lourdes ( we aren't catholic, it was a cachment area thing) but was a lovely school and the story of our lady is a very nice one
It's so funny how these religions hold themselves above "worldly" issues and concerns like the looks of a partner, but still buy into "worldly" narrative like this. Utah is one of the capital destinations for plastic surgery lol.
My dad used to let a pair of Mormon men in and would talk to them and have them do work around his house and it always baffled me they were just so willing to spend time with him let alone go down to his FUCKING BASEMENT to help him clean it out 😂😅😂😅
@@Sam_dea LMAOOOO honestly it was pretty damn smart of him 😂 because he WOULD talk scripture and things with them so technically I suppose they got something out of it too 😂
Dude omg! My MOM would have the Mormon guys help her in the yard! I always gave her ish for that, but I guess she wasn’t alone 😆 I hope those guys are ok now. They seemed earnest.
As someone that did a mormon mission, you'd be surprised how mind numbingly boring it is most of the time, lol, so yeah, I'm not surprised they were more than willing to help your dad out, lol, gave them something to do
I wonder if the church’s real problem with this movie is that it might scare members from going on a mission. That and the exposure of truths the church would like hidden.
I suspect this is the case. I can't imagine anyone watching this movie and thinking it would inspire violence against women in the church, considering the two protagonists are portrayed and intelligent, resourceful and highly likable, and the crazy guy holding them against their will is at no point portrayed as being even in the ballpark of being in the right.
Or because it exposes them to ideas that would make anyone question their faith if they aren't really unintelligent and no apologist is playing interference in real time.
Probably something like that. My very Mormon mom is disgusted that this movie even exists and thinks it’s discriminatory against her beliefs. lol, people like her wouldn’t even give themselves the chance to look at “anti-Mormon” rhetoric.
I'm not aware of any truths in this movie that are intentionally hidden. There are a few that are unpopular, a lot that are just trivial, and a couple that are historically questionable, but none that are really worth hiding in some sort of attempt at conspiracy. The church doesn't go around printing controversial historical facts or arguments against the church in their handbooks or displaying them in their visitor centers, but that's a far cry from keeping them hidden. These things are regularly discussed in academic courses on church history at BYU and other church run schools, they have videos addressing and acknowledging many of the things on their media library, and there's no official policy or suggestion that Sunday school teachers, seminary teachers, youth leader, missionaries, etc. should deny or cover up any thing addressed here. The church doesn't air it's dirty laundry, but it doesn't deny it either. I honestly think the church has a problem with it for exactly what was said in this video. The people writing for the church just don't really understand the movie. They are out of touch and more concerned about appearance than the artistic underlyings of the film. Their statement about violence to women for their beliefs shows that they are looking at this film from a very superficial perspective. That being said, a lot of movie goers also watch movies from a very superficial perspective, so there's definitely a legitimacy to their concerns. I could see some people thinking, "Mr. Reed is awesome the way he showed those brainwashed Mormon girls the truth." It would be a pretty pathetic way to read the themes of the film, but not an unlikely one. People are dumb, far too often, and it makes sense for the church to be worried about that.
I remember some middle aged dudes were offended because we wouldn’t go in and have a drink with them in Argentina Buenos Aires South Mission in 1976. BTW, I resigned 20 years ago last month.
As someone who spent some time there in Argentina and Uruguay I found that when that happened that the other person was wanting to get to know me as a person. It’s more so of a welcoming thing and getting acquainted with each other and turning it down is seen as I’m too good for you. I’ve had similar experiences in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Andorra.
1976, so basically under the dictatorship with social tension at the peak, soldiers at the streets, stage of siege and martial law . Interesting. Where in Buenos Aires?
As an Argentinean you definitely made the right choice. It's very common to invite people for drinks here but it usually happens with acquaintances and friends, rarely with people you JUST met. ESPECIALLY in 1976 when the last military dictatorship was just getting started. Glad you got out of there safely.
@@spectscrawlz_ Qué pensas que le iban a hacer a un misionero Yanki caminando por Ciudad Evita en 1976. Ni los milicos lo iban a tocar (por ser yanki), ni los tipos que le estaban invitando un trago (en época de toque de queda o sea a la tarde a vista de todos ideal para que los milicos puedan cagar a tiros a todos si se enteran de lo que hayan podido hacerle a un misionero extranjero de yankilandia). O lo invitaron de buena onda o la historia es cualquiera.
Alyssa, the way you have started an obsession with Mormons in me! I've always been a person who would be fascinated with murder cases, documentaries about cults, etc., but I'm eating this Mormon content up at an alarming rate😂 and your videos have been such an informative and interesting part of that! Thank you!💗
I hope you enjoy! There are so many horrible mormon murders where the doctrine plays a big role. I've been meaning to cover some of them but they're so dark and also so many :/
@alyssadgrenfell I was unaware of this but I'm not shocked to hear this. Interested in watching a video on this, please, if it's not too upsetting to you. Thank you for your content.
Please check out (and give your thoughts on) a tv show called "my husband is not gay". It's about Mormon men in Utah who are attracted to men, and also married to women!
YES! This is the show where all the husbands have like a "friend group" and casually give ratings on other men on the street (being the higher one a way of saying they needed to be almost restrained iirc? Lmao)
@@mylesmarkson1686 So I think I see the distinction that they are trying to make. They aren't allowed to act on their desires for men because Mormon, and they are essentially forced by their society to marry a woman, but they at least are accepting of their truth that they want to.
Alyssa, I'm not sure if you'll read this but I think the educational work you do is so valuable and I hope you never stop. I was raised non-denom Christian and your videos have really helped me to break free from the harmful side effects of religion in my life. Thank you for all you do, and I hope you and your family are happy, healthy, and safe. :)
Actually, now that I think about it, I'd love to hear your take on Midnight Mass. Its main focus is on Catholicism but it touches on deep issues of spirituality and religion. Some of it applies to every organised religion, I am reminded of the protagonist's conversation with the Priest where he speaks about "shiny churches in impoverished countries" and the learned helplessness of "God works in mysterious ways". I really liked the nuance of the series, at times it feels like an essay on the idea of faith and death. Also, there's a "twist"!
so the thing about the "why didn't you just leave" argument... three things there. I've been told (but didn't experience myself so if I'm wrong please correct me) that missionaries who go to foreign missions have their passports held by the mission president in the mission office. this adds a layer of complication to the argument of "just leave" because leaving the country becomes much harder without your passport. second, I did "just leave" about 16 months into the two-year mission, and when you get back home there's a HUGE social stigma attached to you which makes you a bit of a pariah. a lot of people on missions probably know this and decide to deal with whatever is happening in an attempt to save their family and social circles for when they do get back. Mormon's are incredibly insular people with a lot of internal social networking, and to be cut off from that is incredibly jarring. this was the case for me having gone from an incredibly large family and active community network to being completely alone and on my own all in the space of about two weeks. third, while I was able to get dismissed and sent home by the mission president, when you say "just leave" when you consider how little money the missionaries themselves get access to, they kind of do have you stuck. I think it's likely similar to people in abusive relationships in that the person experiencing the abuse just doesn't have the financial means to get away. Sure they can physically relocate themselves away from the situation, but what then? where do you go? you probably don't know anyone you can stay with since on the mission you're so closely connected to just church members or people you're trying to teach, and even if you're in a developed nation, you really don't qualify to go to a shelter for people who are escaping abuse, so you're even further stuck there
@@spikemcc The early church had a pattern of doing missions, trying to find women to take them to mormon towns so they can become plural wives of mormon men there. These women were basically tricked to come to a foreign place where they had almost no means of ever escaping anywhere else. So this would not be the first instance of human trafficking in the church, by a longshot.
Can confirm you leave your passport with the mission president if you go to a foreign mission. At least this was the case for me back in 1999. Another complication from being in a foreign mission is simple language barriers. You aren't going to speak the language very well (especially if it is earlier on), and a lot of the language you will be familiar with will revolve around religious topics. It's very isolating... on purpose.
“Heretic” is a very creepy film with an intense climax and surprise unraveling. If you see it, don’t say I didn’t warn you. It’s like you don’t want to see it but you’re riveted to the screen.
I think this is why I really needed to watch it a second time. The first time I was too worried about how scared I was to pick up on more of the subtlety!
Idk, as someone who already knew every religious reference they were making, it felt boring, predictable, and stupid at times. This movie is more for people who don't know much about general religion and such
I think the board with nails is a representation of the deconstructed cross. So, I think it's saying that only through deconstructing religion completely can you free yourself and possibly reach the peace and understanding that the natural world is all we have and a spiritual value of connection with nature is where true peace lies. Not sure but something like that seems like it's part of the message.
The butterfly symbolizes the beauty and mystery of the natural world and spiritual connection with her friend that brings her peace. I haven't seen the movie, but this seems like a logical takeaway from your description.
I think you’re onto something. One thing that stuck out to me is the scene with the doors. Belief vs disbelief. That no matter which you choose it’s illusion of choice because you’re still stuck within the confines of the institution itself. I think the message of the movie is that regardless of your personal beliefs or faith, religion (as in the institution not the faith) will always be used to control the believers. It’s even one of the main point of Christianity, with the Pharisees using religion to justify acts of violence and turning temples into markets. The faith or lack there of frees you as long as you make the choice and have hope, but the rigid walls of certain religions are tight and oppressive and often don’t treat the unfaithful well, such as how Sister Barnes ends up in comparison to Sister Paxton
As a non-religious person who grew up with a mom who tried to make me go to a local baptist church when I was young, I really enjoyed this movie. It was nice to have a “scary” movie not based around the Catholic Church. It was definitely “religious horror” in a new light to me. I enjoyed the ideas of iterations of the same thing in various examples from religion to food to music. 7.5/10 all around.
Yeah, for me Christian and Catholic horror is played out. I need something different to keep me interested. Catholic horror especially is just getting ridiculous and almost humorous at this point since they keep upping the ante on everything. See The Pope's Exorcist for a good example. The entire conceit of that film is that these things literally happened as shown in the movie. If even ONE of those things were shown to me as hard, documented evidence (not a "trust me bro it happened it says so on this paper) I will run back to church. I know that'll never happen, so I'll stick with atheism for now.
Hi Alyssa! Just wanted to say you inspired me to do my Anthro masters thesis on Mormonism and their utilization of social media and I’m so excited to deep dive
That sounds fascinating, with possible side quests into disordered eating, weird clothing loopholes, and the "required" cosmetic surgeries to fit the Mormon social media "beauty standard." Enjoy!
Sounds like a really interesting topic. Especially with social media usage, as the Mormon church indirectly "sponsors" so many Mormon influencers/UA-camrs/Bloggers via Google AdSense. I've never even thought about that before Alyssa made her video about the topic, but I'm sure there is much to research in respect to Social Media and Mormonism.
I love how I 1. don't live near the usa, or a country where mormonism is prevalent 2. had basically only heard of mormonism existing from "angels in america" before seeing this channel 3. Have not seen or heard of the movie 4. Can't wait to watch this video and am really glad it's an hour long
I would definitely recommend watching more of her videos if you find this one interesting, she has shed a lot of light on the “cultiness” of Mormonism and its always presented in a very interesting and watchable way!
As a female, I remember working with a guy who was critical of me for working. It turns out that he was LDS and started questioning me. Creepy beyond belief.
An outdated viewpoint. I'm an LDS man and I would never have a problem with that. I'm afraid people like that give a bad reputation for the rest of us.
@@jmorgan3977I mean, a lot of LDS principles rely on pretty intense gender roles- and strictly adhering to them. It’s unsurprising that many people in your faith take it to the extremes
@@syd9394 while that's true, and I won't ignorantly deny it, I've never known any LDS men in my life who have viewed women like that. And I saw my father especially treat my mother as en equal if not even let her take lead on some things. But this is only my experience.
@@jmorgan3977 thank you for keeping an open mind! My family dynamic was pretty similar, my mom was in charge of the finances and housework was split pretty evenly- and I grew up in a religion (Catholic) and the congregation I went to really favored men. I’m glad you’ve experienced a healthy balance with the relationships in your life. Though, this may be nit picky, and I apologize if I’m reading to hard into this, but your wording of your father “let her take lead in things”, is still a pretty gender roled thing. Why does he need to “let” her take the lead? Just a thought. Again, I apologize if that’s a stretch.
That scene in the beginning where the teenagers harass the sister missionaries brought up so many memories of being a missionary. I think they did a good job capturing what it's like to have to have strangers making fun of your daily.
You said something that helped clarify something for me. You talked about the reality that the believer is living in. The faithful Mormon or any deeply religious person has created a world in their mind that is different from the world that outsiders are perceiving.
I am a never-Morm, Christian, church every Sunday my whole life kind of believer. I went to Christian school and I did make the choice to be confirmed when I was 18, which is a typical age in my church. So in many ways, I am on the religion pipeline. I find your perspectives on religion very interesting and important. They make me constantly examine myself to see if I am doing things because of my own well examined faith and convictions, or because I am being controlled. I watch exJW and exScientology content for the same reasons. Thank you for sharing your experiences as a Mormon and now missionary.
I watched the film in a cinema in the uk. Two separate older (60+) couples left about half way during the film. Which makes me think what they thought it was about 😂? Either they were offended it was a horror/psychological thriller (not a Hugh Grant rom com) or about what is said about Christianity (clue is in the name) but what enticed them to the cinema still intrigues me today 😂
@@confusedjello7292 That would've been me too. They probably thought they could handle it and in the end it was too much for them. Happens to me all the time. I'm an adult and I can't even watch thrillers without making my mom watch them with me so she can tell me when the violent parts are over 😭
Respectfully Mormons are not a Christian denomination. The Mormon claim to Christianity would be like a Jew calling themselves a Muslim. They really are an Americana cult that rips off abrahamic religion with their own wattpad bible and invasive practices. Christians do not consider Mormons one of the denominations because of the radically different theology/rituals/doctrine they hold.
About the single Elder that you mentioned as being a strange thing: When I lived in Taiwan in the 1980s, there were many Mormon missionaries. Once, one of them came to the apartment I shared with a male student. We started talking and he said that he wasn't supposed to do this but his companion had told him it was okay because he (the companion) wanted to do something on his own and they wouldn't tell anybody about it. Then he opened up about the doubts he had and how he had nobody to share them with. I felt sorry for him.
News flash, LDS Church: A bishop - following policy, mind you - contacting a law firm instead of the police when someone reports CSA or DV to him also “runs counter to the safety and wellbeing of our communities.” The selective concern for the wellbeing of members is staggering. And downright nauseating.
I took the ending to be that she actually didn’t make it out, she died downstairs and her getting out was the realistic dream state like the other sister had as a kid before she died and the other kidnapped girl said about reality before dying etc - I think the sister died and when she saw the butterfly it was herself because she had reincarnated as a butterfly
Like for me it was always encountering young male JW and obviously having good intentions but it would be really different for girls/women and still even the men of various proselytizing religions being thrown into door knocking is so unsafe
What I'm saying is that typically we view them as the nuisance/aggressor/threat, but never think of them as being prey to these opportunistic criminals I guess
My sticking points about the birth control are that the scar is way too long (it's usually much smaller, more like a dot than a line) and that the implant is metal instead of plastic. I also appreciate that Sister Paxton was very honest about the fact that Sister Barnes would be made to feel guilty for using birth control. Both women are smarter than they initially let on.
The scar seemed off to me, too. During the scene in the living room when Mr. Reed first notices it and the camera draws attention to it, I assumed it was somehow related to Sister Barnes' dad's death since it didn't look like an implant scar and they'd been talking about it in the same scene. I thought it may have been from SH and that was supposed to be part of a reveal later.
As a lifelong atheist, something I really liked about the film that I'm still struggling to put into words was what I think it was trying to say about how atheism and trying to "disprove" religion can sometimes be weaponized in ways just as harmful as the control of religion itself. I'm old enough to have watched the transformation of atheist UA-cam in particular from "disproving" religion to "disproving" feminism to ultimately just being yet another edgelord pipeline into the alt-right, and always felt really betrayed and confused by how that all went down. I liked that, while Mr. Reed made a lot of really good points (that obviously I personally agree with, for the most part) none of that justified his objectively horrific actions. It's not like he was having a good faith conversation with these girls, or even trying to help them get out from under the control of religion, he just wanted to feel intellectually superior and exercise his own control and violence on them and the other women he was harming. Like I said, I don't have it fully pinned down yet, but I think the main point I got from it was something along the lines of, it doesn't matter whether you have the "right" beliefs (the "one true religion" or lack thereof) it's all the same if you're just using it to be violent and hateful.
I watched this with my husband last night and was hoping you would make a video about it! I leaned over to my husband the first ten minutes in and said “these girls are nailing the Mormon awkwardness” 🤣 I enjoyed it but felt the ending was a little rushed.
@@axfln4221 yes!! I made this comment before I had finished the video but that piece of information really helped it click into place, the girls were perfectly cast and Hugh Grant was amazing!
I think soon after getting stabbed in the stomach, she enters into a near death experience. She hallucinates Sister Barnes coming back to life briefly. Her escape, her moment with the butterfly in a pure white forest- that’s all her brain firing off as she dies.
Intelligent and insightful analysis. Far superior to any other that I have seen whether pro or anti Mormon. You have distinguished yourself with excellent work here.
I was hoping you’d cover this as someone with experience with this subject matter! One thing your interpretation has that I haven’t seen others mentioning is viewing Hugh Grant’s character as religion itself challenging the sisters. Wow that’s interesting!
I saw the movie yesterday. I am a former Mormon and was a missionary 45 years ago in South America. After the movie I was having dinner and it came to my mind, their whole experience was just a slightly more intense Bishop’s interview and the points about control and everything are right on.
I’m amazed. I’ve watched many of your videos and have always respected your intelligence and honesty. But this is brilliant every moment. It was almost hard to believe, moment by moment, how precisely and deeply you saw into the details of the movie. What a delight to see someone thinking with such agility and meaning in real time.
As soon as "Mr. Reed" showed his own obviously well read Book of Mormon was the first real red flag that should have got the missionaries to protest and try to leave
45:14 (Never-mo, here) I actually HAVE seen a faithful Mormon review of Heretic that was VERY favorable. Jono and Alan from Cinema Therapy gave a spoiler-free review and they are both Utah Mormans who LOVED it. They also took the perspective that it was very nuanced. They even said that they expected to be offended but thought that it was fairly respectful of Mormon beliefs. I actually saw theirs first and was kinda waiting for your take for comparison!
It's always so weird to me that they are Mormon... Like, they seem fairly tolerant open minded people, which is not what I would expect from a religion that teaches blind obedience and rigid adherence to social roles. Idk
the movie is honestly not that deeply about mormonism specifically, and it treats it as basically equivalent to any religion. hugh grant's character does say a lot of the "awkward truths" about mormonism but since he's the antagonist i don't think it lands that hard lol
It seemed fairly clear to me that at the end of the movie when Sister Paxton suddenly starts witnessing "miracles" like Sister Barnes coming back from the dead and the model of the house strangely showing an escape route and when she goes outside and it matches Sister Barnes description of what near death hallucinations are like, and the image of the butterfly, that she is hallucinating as a result of dying. Then when the movie cuts out and "Knocking on Heaven's Door" plays, she's now dead.
This is a fantastic video. The connects you draw between the mind games of Mormonism and the premise of the movie are fantastic and accurate. I was already excited to see the movie but this ramped me up even more.
*I have to give credit where credit is due* ! 🙌 GIRL you had me sucked into this video from *start* to *finish* lol. You did such a good job reacting to this movie.. from explaining all the different takes on the metaphors, breaking things down to a level that I could understand (being I was never a Mormon) and even mentioning your own experiences that you tied into this. Honestly you did such a good job, Allyssa! 👏 So now I’m curious and going to have to totally watch this movie now! 😅
I feel like, as a woman, behaving erratically is extra bad safety advice because I don't think a predatory man would be put off by a woman acting 'crazy'.
The staggering amount of violence against people with disabilities absolutely agrees with you! Looking "crazy" might just make you more of a target for attack since someone having a psychotic episode or with extreme speech impediments won't be able to report to the police. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_people_with_disabilities
This is almost sold out at our local theater chain. It is discount night, so sales are a little better than usual. Still I think it might be a sleeper hit.
Excellent analysis and discussion of an interesting-sounding film. I'm never going to see it, but I thoroughly enjoy your discussion. As a retired English/American Lit teacher, I miss classroom discussions, and this kind of video is a real treat. Thank you! Also, you're really living your dad's prophecy that you'd be a teacher AND doing a phenomenal job of it! Be well!
As a Catholic, I was confirmed at a young age in the 1970s. (Accepting the baptismal vows as an "adult" to personally choose to become a member of the church.) It was a group experience and part of a series of rituals to become a "full" Catholic including first confession and first Communion. I definitely saw parallels with a friend who had his Bar Mitzvah a few years later. It makes a lot more sense that Confirmation now happens during high school (at least in my community) when the participants are older and can more reasonably be understood to be making an important decision for themselves. In my church, there is also a strong adult convert program where people spend months preparing to be baptized or confirmed and there's a large ceremony before Easter to welcome them into the faith. I think that having a spiritual life is important and acknowledge that we all take different paths to find that. I very much concur that children should not be coerced into fully committing to a religion until they reach an age of consent.
"People don't mess with crazy peoples", reveals two different ideas, one that the other is outside of the norm, two people actually do in fact mess with crazy people, like hurt and mock them.
@@orangesnowflake3769Yeah, the word “crazy” is reductive and removes nuance. Those who behave differently from a cultural norm are absolutely mocked, but by being “unpredictable” it can make a person more susceptible to attacks. Very concerning.
I was so excited when I saw this movie last Thursday with my boyfriend, and I was able to pick up on all the Mormon references thanks to you! It made the movie so much more enjoyable and thought provoking having been informed on the LDS before going in. Super excited to see you react to this!☺️
I interpreted the house as a symbol of religion, or at least the institution of religion. Every room is a further step deeper down the rabbit holes. As you mentioned, the warm false opening to lure the girls in, then solidified and “locked in” as they enter the second room at the alter of indoctrination. They are preached to, and are given the false choice as a bit of an introductory ritual. As they go deeper under the surface the illusion breaks but they still have a “window of hope” in the basement that they turn to instead. The house is a maze, an enigma, and just like the metal in the walls and ceiling has cut them off entirely from the outside world too. Mr. Reed, portrays himself as a “god” like figure. The god of choice, as if to signify to all of the women he has trapped over the years chose this, chose him, and chose their fate. But ultimately o think this shows his true figure as the religious/cult leader. Ultimately he is his own Joseph Smith. Pretending to have a wife while, this smiling happy and manipulative figure draws them in. He preaches and lectures to them. He’s making it up on the fly when things go wrong like Joseph Smith loosing some of the first translation of the Book of Mormon, and ultimately he does have his own “harem” of women hidden in his cellar just like Joseph tried to hide his polygamous wives. He’s even a bit of a trickster, using his lights and candles as a bit of smoke and mirrors, as he simultaneously describes how Joseph Smith found golden plates he translated using a seer stone in a hat. He even falsifies his own “miracles” like resurrection. But ultimately I do see this is a religious neutral to positive. “Prayer may not work, but it makes people feel good” and it’s at this point that the viewer witnesses their own “miracle” when Barnes is able to use her last moments and “sacrifice” herself to save Paxton before presumably dying. By no means is Paxton actually in the clear however. She’s still bleeding out, and has to escape from the house (religion), and while the storm outside may be over, she is still in feet of snow (the pure white contrasting the dark, and bloody mess she has endured) miles from her church with a gut wound. It ends without the viewer being sure that she was rescued or got help. The viewer may have faith that her cell service will return and she makes it back to safe, and is able to bring help to rescue the other women inside, but ultimately there is no confirmation. She could just as easily get stuck in the snow, bleed out and die. But you never know for sure. You have to have faith. If you can’t tell I LOVED the movie, and your deep dive as well.
Excellent analysis! I really appreciate your comprehensive perspective. Edit: At 47:30 The analogy comparing religion to The Landlord’s Game (a brilliant political / economic teaching game made by a female Georgist activist) and its many kind of ripoffs / degradations “for the masses” is also quite interesting and stood out to me, thoughtful writing.
I mean this in the best way possible- I listen to you to fall asleep. Okay hear me out, it takes me a long time to fall asleep so I’m listening and I do know all of your videos now but I get excited when a new video drops because I start to know them by heart.
Just watched the film a couple days ago. I will say, managing to binge your videos over the prior month made me see it on a whole other level. So glad to get your perspective on it!
As for the temple ceremony on film: there is an episode of Big Love where Barb goes to the temple and a lot of the ceremony is shown, including the secret handshakes. That scene has stayed with me since I was a kid and your videos on the temple have relieved my years-long curiosity on the topic.
I remember that scene and thought to myself, that must be made up, or maybe it was FLDS. But now turns out it’s typical Mormon temple stuff. Blew my mind.
Great analysis! I was really hoping to see a mormom/exmo perspective on this film and lo and behold your video appeared 😁 loving the mormon-based entertainment content lately, keep up the excellent work!
Bob Dylan wrote Knocking on Heaven's Door about Military Service Members. The badge refers to a Military badge. The Viet Naam War was taking place when it was written, but it is about all Military conflict & the prospect of dying due to forced or even coerced Military Service, especially in the context of a war that is being fought in the interest of economic protection of the mega-wealthy powers that be, etc. It was written for the movie "Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid" & is representative of a lawman character in that movie- supposedly the lawman's voice. Which, it does function that way in the film. But Bob Dylan, being himself: a man of deep layered thought, intent & meaning didn't write it with that simplicity- simply about one dimension, a single character, in a single story, at a single point in time. It has much, much broader, deeper meaning❤
I was recently away for a few days, and went to see Heretic without knowing anything about it other than the cast, and the fact it was a horror movie. I didn’t see a trailer, so I wasn’t aware it had LDS characters, so that was a pleasant surprise. I loved it! While I’m a nevermo, I am very interested in cults and high control groups from a psychological/sociological perspective and the characterisation of the women in it felt very authentic from my own limited dealings with LDS missionaries and everything I’ve read and seen on channels like yours. I found myself grinning at lots of little details in it - the references to garments that you mentioned, and other things like them talking about “choosing the right” like they’re taught in church. The entire film was carried on the weight of the three main actors, and I think they were all fantastic. Hugh Grant was so creepy, and had a real undertone of malevolence under his polite and smiley exterior. Definitely recommend the film to anyone who likes horror films. ☺️
i loved this analysis. a lot of deep dives into the nuances and the symbolism with knowledge and insight that may have been looked over. it really reminds me of how much i kinda loved doing these in school. makes me want to watch this movie
I liked this movie, and i think your analysis as Mr. Reed being religion is spot on. I thought it was interesting that Mr Reed talks about himself being young and earnestly seeking through all this doctrine,but then over time he learns the "true religion" which leads to him having many "wives" aka prisoners. So many people seem to start out earnestly seeking, and then eventually become so entrenched that they lose all respect and care for those that don't believe as they do, which leads to horrific words and actions. (Hmm, our future VP suddenly popped into my head- weird). Anyway, i would love to see the movie again. I really appreciated the nuance and details. My husband was sad that it wasn't just 2 hours of an atheist dunking on Mormons 😅 (i was raised Mormon and have been out for about 15 years and he was raised more neutral), but what can you do?
I saw this movie with my boyfriend this weekend and I was telling him all about your channel, so I am super excited to watch your reaction! Love your videos!
I so wish 15 year old me could have watched your content. While I have always been agnostic I was friends with MANY Mormons in high school (ca. 2005) and went to several church dances and had other moments where in hindsight those “friends” were trying to preach to me. I just wish I had the education that you have brought me to be able to respond better
I'm not even 20 minutes in and I've already interrupted my husband reading his book in the other room because you mention things that trigger vivid memories of a group (one that I always suspected was Mormons on their mission ) of people that lived in our old apartment complex. I never had any direct interactions with them, but saw them somewhat regularly from across the parking lot or something. They were like two buildings down. There were 4 girls on the first floor corner apartment and 4 boys directly above them on the second floor. The first couple weeks that I noticed them around, I usually saw the 4 girls with their bikes waiting on the bench for the bus. Then they got a car (our public transit sucks here but visitors often expect a lot more out of it)... oh it was a whole production every time they came/went from their parking spot. One of them had to stand outside of the car and direct the driver by voice and hand signals. She even wore the little orange safety vest. She would slowly and safely guide her companion out of the parking spot, then run to hop in the car while taking off the vest. (the other two girls sitting in the backseat) One night I came home from work (I worked odd hours, would get home around 10pm) and saw the boys outside their apartment. It looked like they were trying to build a human pyramid! Lmafo! My best guess is that they had locked themselves out of their apartment somehow and were trying to get their second floor apartment window open. The girls were standing out on their porch watching. They appeared to have game nights occasionally. I only say this b/c it was the only time you'd see the shades fully open with all the main lights on at night inside the girl's apartment. Anyone within sight could clearly see everything going on (by design, I'm sure. b/c the boys were there) and they would all be sitting around the coffee table playing some kind of game.
Ex Mormon here. Just saw the movie and I love your analysis. Spot on I think. A couple of additions: when sister Paxton escaped and stumbled into the woods with the morning sun rising, I immediately thought of Joseph Smith and the grove of trees. Also-I went through the temple for the first time in 1983… I found the manner in which Sister Barnes was killed symbolic, especially considering she was the more nuanced of the two of them. A lot to process and unpack after seeing this. I thought it was superbly written and cast, and was masterfully done.
31:05 I really appreciate someone talking about this. I honestly regret being baptised at 8, and I always feel invalidated because “well it was your choice”. I didn’t think it was a choice. Nobody told it was even an option, I just thought that’s what you do when you turn eight. It makes me sad.
I also love the idea that the butterfly with relation to religion, much like the butterfly effect, deconstructing is so painful that you feel as though you are turning into goo because everything about your existence needs to be reworked but once you reemerge, with a single flap of your new wings, will also ripple through the world and cause change - but maybe that's just me lol
I'm also an exmormon who served a mission in Germany. I do believe there is something, whether intuition or not, but one teaching appt we had scheduled and traveled an hour to get to this guy's apartment, as we were walking up to his door I said aloud to my companion "I have a bad feeling about this." And she replied something along the lines of "I'm glad you said something because so do I." We both turned around and traveled an hour back to the city.
Regarding the birth control pill: A girl I know who is Mormon was on the pill during her mission because her period is very painful and she wanted to avoid having to go around while on a lot of pain killers and feeling awful. Taking a day off wasn't an option
While a missionary in Bangkok, I got a panicked call one morning from a non-member friend who frantically told me there were riots going on in an area where I had an appointment that morning, and that people were being shot in the streets. I called the mission office, and was told that I should go ahead and attend the appointment, and that god would protect me from the bullets..... Fortunately, as I approached the area, the police forbade me to go any further, and told me to go home......
That's horrible! I hope you and your fellow missionaries were not hurt during your time there
See, hearing stuff like that makes me seethe. Imagine telling a young person under your supervision to intentionally put themselves in danger for something that could easily be re-scheduled. Not that it's a priority, but the person you were meeting with may have been busy too and not in a state to meet with you anyways.
Abuse and Endangerment. It's pure insanity.
@@Martinowor God doesn’t protect children from starvation, cancer or abuse, why would he go and protect a. Missionary?😳🙄🤦🏼♂️😒
@@gavinsanderson1448 , exactly....
Blueberries are also often confused for deadly nightshade. Another bit of poisonous deception metaphor!
Ohhh, that’s a good point, I didn’t even catch that!
It must be the other way around, the deadly nightshade is being mistaken for a harmless blueberry. Sounds like an interesting film.
Yep I thought that as soon as he mentioned it. And in fact the pie does come up later in the film, and has some belladonna in it :)
You’ve done an amazing job telling people what grooming is. “You chose so you can’t complain.” “You took the first step, you’re committed now.” “No one will believe you.” “You wanted this.” The louder religious people blame others, the more they’re revealing their own true selves.
wow, nice one
Talk about abuse... jeeeez
I don't understand. Are you saying she's being abusive and gaslighting believers?
That isn't even a matter just for religious people. There are a lot of people who blame others for own choices in life.
@@candicecolvin4668 No, she's explaining how religions groom believers.
The actresses were both raised Mormon. They pulled on their experiences growing up when they auditioned for their roles, and when they portrayed their characters.
As a former Jehovahs Witness woman and a mother, it enrages me how many times I was sent off alone with one of my little friends to knock on doors as a child and as a young girl/teen. We would be in larger groups but then would be sent off down the street or in scary apartment complexes alone without any kind of supervision. I’m actually shocked that I was never physically harmed.
If it makes you feel better assault and sexual abuse of children very rarely comes from strangers so while it's dangerous to send a child out knocking on doors, harm done by someone is a lot less likely than you would think
Oh who am I kidding that's not reassuring in the slightest
@@dancinganimals. that’s ok, I get your point.
Unfortunately missionary work isn’t for other people, it is to teach missionaries to be afraid of the outside world. I am sorry you went through that.
I'm not religious, but I am kind, and that's why whenever the younger mormons come around, I point out a house they should absolutely not knock on the door. The home owner is on a certain list, and it's not safe for the youths to knock on the door. The excuse I give is that he's stone deaf and won't answer the door. I also offer bottles of water and snacks, it gets hot here.
I sat next to a missionary on an airplane last year who was coming home from his mission after having his apartment broken into in the middle of the night and he was robbed at knife-point and beaten. He stayed on the mission a few months longer but the PTSD was so bad he had to go home. He was such a sweet kid and my heart broke for him.
poor guy
Where was God ?
@@chendaforest
Looking the other way as usual….
Except for the truly faithful when he guides them to their lost keys when running late and saves them the best parking space in the rain or was on the side of their favorite team
when they won or got them that promotion they wanted…
🙄🙄🙄
@@ginafrancis4950 Indeed. God helps them find their keys whilst failing to stop children from drowning. God is asleep on the job...
Religion is a poison of the mind.
After I saw "Heretic", I was talking to my family about the ending in the theater. A very harried looking woman, alone, passed by our row and said "Were you raised Mormon?" We said "yes, how did you know? " She said she just guessed since we were so engaged in the plot. I said "I hope you didn't start this movie as a believer." She just shook her head and walked out looking so broken. I wish I had caught up to her and given her my number in case she needed a sounding board. Leaving the church is so traumatic.
I wonder if she's still a mormon and is disturbed by having to question what she thinks.
I really liked the movie. One message that struck me was how we often under estimate women in general, but most of all women who present more feminine. But in reality the character is clever, thoughtful, observant and determined. She might have been fawning as a defense mechanism, but she was paying attention. She has a brain and she will use it.
I haven't watched this movie, but your description kinda reminds me of Anya Taylor Joy's character in The Menu. She's basically able to get out of a bad situation by fawning and paying attention.
@UnderPurpleStarlight I'm fond of that movie too. I guess I have a favorite trope haha
I actually hated that I fawn in stressful situations, but this made me feel more empowered. It's not my choice, but it's not the terrible reaction I considered it as ❤
Oh I really enjoy your UA-cam! Small world!
Agreed! Fashion can be anything, but character always shines through.
So funny story, my mom once accidentally held 2 JW missionaries hostage in our house for like 3 hours. So during the winter we do a LOT of baking and cooking. We live in a farming community, and as the only non-working farm in the area instead of sharing crops or things gathered from livestock we cook a bunch with all the gifts and share it with our neighbors. Anyway these JW missionaries show up at the door, and because it was snowing and cold as hell my mom invited them in and offered them some warm drinks and let them know the snow should stop soon if they would like to wait. They started asking us all the religious questions, and my mom was like "Oh no thank you we're Satanists". She started going off on this LONG rant about all the inconsistencies in the bible, how crazy the weather was, and just kept putting freshly baked goods in front of them. They did eat a strudel, pet our dog a bit, and politely listened to my mom rant on and on while I was stuck doing all the baking 😂. Finally my mom stopped ranting, said "Oh look the snow has stopped, I'm sure you boys have far more important things to do than listen to me prattle on, would you like some soup or anything to take with you?" They skedaddeled out of our house so damn fast, and we haven't had JW missionaries come to the house since! That was 15 years ago 😅
I barked out a laugh when I read "oh no thank you we're satanists" - OMG LOVE you mom! Legend!
@@hank_430I think the best part about it is we’re not even satanists! She just picks a new religion anytime someone asks 😂😭
@@YourFavoriteSociopathGenius 😂
@@YourFavoriteSociopath Your mom is my new favourite person.
I aspire to be this mother😂🙌legend
Love Hugh Grant finally playing the baddies he was born to play, I buy him as 'sinister' far more easily than 'shy bumbling guy'.
Orson Bean fan?
To be fair he's known to not be the nicest person in real life.
@@niccard3101oh no fr???
hugh grant aka hugh-ge asshole lol
He was a sneaky but somewhat funny villain in Dungeons and Dragons. So he’s good at different types of evil. I think they are giving him better written characters to play now that he is getting older
Actually (former mormon here) i tried to tell my dad I wasnt ready yet, when i was 8 and about to get baptized. and he made it very clear I'd be basically disowned if I didnt make the choice he wanted me to. It was clear my "choice" in it didnt matter. Whatever choice i supposedly had was made by my parents when i was born.
I was raised strict catholic. By the time I hit 8th grade I knew I wasn’t catholic. I was reading about other religions and beliefs. My guardian found the books and started screaming at me. One of the books was about the history of paganism. She started screaming I was going to go in the backyard and sacrifice the dog we had. Still remember that quote nearly 2 decades later.
She told me I am catholic, I’m doing confirmation, and that was the end of discussion. Confirmation for Catholics is the summer after 8th grade btw.
She slowly ended up being more open minded. But after I started having kids, she got very pushy about baptizing them. I never did. But to this day she tells me she prays for me every night and hopes I find god again (of course her god lol.)
@silllykitten329 my mom does a similar thing about praying for me every time something goes wrong (i lose a job, go to the ER etc.) I have learned to just kind of go "thanks mom" and change the subject...
That really sucks about how your mom freaked out. I feel like they dont realize sometimes how much more traumatizing it is to do and say things like that rather than just being understanding and maybe hoping you choose her beliefs.
I can relate to this! When I was a teen, I questioned my religion for a short period of time (I’ve since left religion completely). During that period I didn’t feel comfortable taking communion as I thought it would be disrespectful to my faith and the people who truly believed in it. I didn’t discuss it with anyone ahead of time, but when they passed the communion plate around the congregation, I simply passed it along without taking anything. My parents were horrified. More embarrassed than anything else I think, but I felt so terrible. I was trying to be respectful of the faith, but not one person in my congregation saw it that way. The realization that my community was more interested in me appearing to agree with them, than the actual “condition of my heart” has never left me.
Are you all American? Because I Was raised catholic in Europe and I don't know anyone with such a Story. Most people my age are lapsed catholics (never officially left, but not pracrising either) or proudly Atheist. When I Was doubting my faith and wanted to look at other Religions, my very devout mom took me to the library and Temples and Churches close by. In Our equivalent of sunday school, other Religions and even Atheist ethics were discussed positivly. I Start to wonder of that is a culture thing instead of a Religion thing ...
@i.b.640 i think it does depend on where you live. Im a mormon personally (or i guess i was most of my life) and can say this is a huge issue in america and canada. I do however feel like its kind of a mixture of cultural and religious issue. I think america has a very culty mindset about a lot of belief systems not just religion, and we take things like feelings and opinions very personally here. I think that kind of thinking can lead to things like religious culture snowballing into somwthing much more toxic here than in other countries for sure.
"Business in the front, cult in the back." That's gold.
Opposite of MAGA where the cult is in the front and the business of making trumps wealthy friends wealthier is in the back.
It's not even "Religion in the front"? I guess they don't even pretend anymore!
666 likes😂😂
@@Nadine9ymp We need to keep it there. Nobody else is allowed to like this comment!
@13:11 - "You're a fan of this team? I love them! Want to get baptized into my Church?" That is one hell of a segue.
It absolutely reminded me of the last time Mormon guys came to my door and through the screen started off with "Is that a bernese mountain dog?" I at the time lived in a slightly dangerous neighborhood alone so having someone come right up to my door and peg my dogs breed immediately put me on high alert but then it went right into "my uncle loves those. Do you have any interest in learning about the afterlife?"
Yes, this cracked me up! So smooth. 😂
Another metaphor I was thinking about was actually the weather. The weather outside is a metaphor for the outside world/peoples lives. At first when they are at his doorstep its raining pretty hard and theyre getting soaked, and so that is a contributing factor to why they came into his house without fully verifying he had a wife. This goes back to the proselytizing to people after a natural disaster, when they are vulnerable they are more likely to "come inside". It shows the weather worsening as time goes by and that it was beginning to snow. After finding out the door is locked, they have a conversation about if they should try to find a way out and leave without their coats because they'd have to walk back miles in the snow. This makes them decide to go deeper into the house to try to get their coats (finding reasons not to leave, even when they are beginning to question, because of the fear/ consequences). At the end when she gets outside, the weather is no longer so cold and harsh, but its bright and sunny, even with snow still on the ground, and the fresh morning light shining down around her, the new day symbolizing a fresh start and freedom. I think the butterfly also adds to the sense of freedom.
This is a brilliant and nuanced take ❤
They actually do decide to leave without their coats and bikes, but are trapped by the lock. They venture further back into the house because they have no other option. So that is all part of the "illusion of choice" narrative. I was so relived when they decided to brave the snow and try the door, knowing they would be leaving their coats and bikes behind. Otherwise it would be such a classic, dumb horror movie mistake. Aside from maybe letting the uncomfortable chit-chat without a wife present go on for too long (which is not surprising for missionaries), they really make very sound decisions along the way and are truly forced into this situation. It really drives home the point of manufactured consent.
Something I also loved about the weather in the beginning (and the freezing room at the end) is that it also parallels the weather described in Dante’s Inferno (windy/rainy transitioning into ‘eternal winter’, etc), with the descent ending in satans icy lair. Esp with the full shot of Reed’s Inferno poster, it feels like they were def drawing some parallels there
The world outside is difficult so they escape it. They coming in.
Wow I never thought that as an ex-muslim (never really believed but I was raised in it as a child) that I could relate to an ex-mormon. Your breakdown of the movie, though I've not seen it, is fantastic. The gender roles, for example, sounds spot on for religion. Not saying anything about Islam necessarily, but the way I was raised really showed this. Even now, I still face this issue; I am dating a Christian and my mum still does not accept it and she still refers to her religion as "our religion" or "us muslims" despite me telling her I'm atheist. Meanwhile, my boy cousins can go around dating whoever they want and bring them to the family functions... Religion, from my experience, really is in the hands of men, men have so much power. The depiction of the doors leading to the same place is chilling. It's a stark reminder that whether you're atheist or religious, you're going to the same place; I interpret this as death. We will all die, but we will never ever know if religion is correct. So far, the only thing we know is that life and death is real, and we're all headed in one direction. Religion does feel like such a trap mentally, from what I went through and still face from people in my life today. I relate to a lot of your experiences. Thanks! Glad I found your channel.
Same! I was Muslim for about 7 years from the age of 19 and I can relate so much to this.
Yes there is often a double standard between men and women.
There's a chat by another ex Mormon and an ex Muslim guy called apostate aladdin on his channel, it goes into that topic a bit more and is very interesting.
My cousin is a non-trad Muslim and always related to me as a former JW.
Most religions are made by men for men. I don’t know any “common” religion that centres and prioritises women to the same degree that men are.
Your method dressing for your videos truly does give 'teacher'. Excited to hear your takes 😊
It honestly makes the videos even more fun to make! Make me feel like Ms. Frizzle. haha
@@alyssadgrenfell your dads blessing to be a teacher has in the end, turned out to be true. You are teaching all of us the truth about LDS and I’m loving it. Please, don’t stop teaching and showing us the truth
@@alyssadgrenfell Hey I have a few questions! How often do missionaries go door to door vs making an appointment first? I have heard that missionaries use social media a lot nowadays to create contacts. Are folks still at home anymore during the day or do more people work?
The joke with the male missionary coming back to the door works so well because at that point, if I remember rightly, the audience doesn't know Mr Reed has moved the bikes - you're supposed to think that's what he's spotted, and then instead he whips out the pamphlets.
The ending is deliberately ambiguous, for sure. Anyone telling you it's for sure one or the other is lying! It's like The Thing, or Inception - the point is not to know
I was really confused when people say you weren't supposed to know with Inception: kids that age grow like beanpoles, there is no way both the kids wouldn't have changed one bit (one kid having a bit of a growth stall isn't that weird, but both nope). I don't remember now but there were multiple other things that pointed at him just being locked in a dream. The ending seemed obvious, just merely ominous.
Regarding the ending, the butterfly. The way it's framed, I think is the important part. The cinematography is brilliant. We initially see her looking at the butterfly on her finger, but when the camera pulls back over her shoulder (or from her perspective) her finger is still extended as if the butterfly is there, but it's gone. We don't see it fly off. We go from a shot where we see she clearly see's the butterfly, then we're pulled back to see just her hand framed in the shot with the butterfly missing. It leaves me feeling like the message is it doesn't matter if the butterfly is real, the hope it inspires regardless, is. Spirituality good, Dogma bad.
As an ex-catholic, I appreciated that this movie was not just another Catholic horror film. Your interpretations are spot on. I love a24 films.
I watched Conclave last week, speaking of Catholic films, and that one was pretty good if you are looking for a movie to watch. The ending was not expected!
Catholicism has so much beautiful imagery/iconography, I think it translates well to film. I think that may be a (shallow! 😅) reason why it gets used so much in horror movies.
Did you like The Young Pope? I loved it, but only saw the first season.
Thaks for the recommendation. I will watch this too ❤
@@BouncyBrowncatholic churches are so pretty inside. As you say, there is a lot of beautiful imagery, even some of the stories are interesting. My son went to a catholic school Our Lady of Lourdes ( we aren't catholic, it was a cachment area thing) but was a lovely school and the story of our lady is a very nice one
Former Catholic here, too - best I’ve seen is the Midnight Mass mini series. It hit home, hard. I will definitely check Conclave out!
14:30 On my mission the joke was "Every time you drop your scriptures your future wife gains 10 pounds" 🙃🤮
The layers of misogyny and fatphobic rhetoric
It's so funny how these religions hold themselves above "worldly" issues and concerns like the looks of a partner, but still buy into "worldly" narrative like this. Utah is one of the capital destinations for plastic surgery lol.
Yuck. I don't like that.
I'd never read scripture again. Women are cute with some weight on 'em.
My dad used to let a pair of Mormon men in and would talk to them and have them do work around his house and it always baffled me they were just so willing to spend time with him let alone go down to his FUCKING BASEMENT to help him clean it out 😂😅😂😅
That is so big brain.
Your dad is a genius lmao
@@Sam_dea LMAOOOO honestly it was pretty damn smart of him 😂 because he WOULD talk scripture and things with them so technically I suppose they got something out of it too 😂
Dude omg! My MOM would have the Mormon guys help her in the yard! I always gave her ish for that, but I guess she wasn’t alone 😆 I hope those guys are ok now. They seemed earnest.
As someone that did a mormon mission, you'd be surprised how mind numbingly boring it is most of the time, lol, so yeah, I'm not surprised they were more than willing to help your dad out, lol, gave them something to do
I wonder if the church’s real problem with this movie is that it might scare members from going on a mission. That and the exposure of truths the church would like hidden.
I suspect this is the case. I can't imagine anyone watching this movie and thinking it would inspire violence against women in the church, considering the two protagonists are portrayed and intelligent, resourceful and highly likable, and the crazy guy holding them against their will is at no point portrayed as being even in the ballpark of being in the right.
Or because it exposes them to ideas that would make anyone question their faith if they aren't really unintelligent and no apologist is playing interference in real time.
Probably something like that. My very Mormon mom is disgusted that this movie even exists and thinks it’s discriminatory against her beliefs. lol, people like her wouldn’t even give themselves the chance to look at “anti-Mormon” rhetoric.
I'm not aware of any truths in this movie that are intentionally hidden. There are a few that are unpopular, a lot that are just trivial, and a couple that are historically questionable, but none that are really worth hiding in some sort of attempt at conspiracy. The church doesn't go around printing controversial historical facts or arguments against the church in their handbooks or displaying them in their visitor centers, but that's a far cry from keeping them hidden. These things are regularly discussed in academic courses on church history at BYU and other church run schools, they have videos addressing and acknowledging many of the things on their media library, and there's no official policy or suggestion that Sunday school teachers, seminary teachers, youth leader, missionaries, etc. should deny or cover up any thing addressed here. The church doesn't air it's dirty laundry, but it doesn't deny it either.
I honestly think the church has a problem with it for exactly what was said in this video. The people writing for the church just don't really understand the movie. They are out of touch and more concerned about appearance than the artistic underlyings of the film. Their statement about violence to women for their beliefs shows that they are looking at this film from a very superficial perspective. That being said, a lot of movie goers also watch movies from a very superficial perspective, so there's definitely a legitimacy to their concerns. I could see some people thinking, "Mr. Reed is awesome the way he showed those brainwashed Mormon girls the truth." It would be a pretty pathetic way to read the themes of the film, but not an unlikely one. People are dumb, far too often, and it makes sense for the church to be worried about that.
I remember some middle aged dudes were offended because we wouldn’t go in and have a drink with them in Argentina Buenos Aires South Mission in 1976. BTW, I resigned 20 years ago last month.
Wow, happy 20 years! I wonder if they legitimately expected you to say yes. haha
As someone who spent some time there in Argentina and Uruguay I found that when that happened that the other person was wanting to get to know me as a person. It’s more so of a welcoming thing and getting acquainted with each other and turning it down is seen as I’m too good for you. I’ve had similar experiences in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Andorra.
1976, so basically under the dictatorship with social tension at the peak, soldiers at the streets, stage of siege and martial law . Interesting. Where in Buenos Aires?
As an Argentinean you definitely made the right choice. It's very common to invite people for drinks here but it usually happens with acquaintances and friends, rarely with people you JUST met. ESPECIALLY in 1976 when the last military dictatorship was just getting started. Glad you got out of there safely.
@@spectscrawlz_ Qué pensas que le iban a hacer a un misionero Yanki caminando por Ciudad Evita en 1976. Ni los milicos lo iban a tocar (por ser yanki), ni los tipos que le estaban invitando un trago (en época de toque de queda o sea a la tarde a vista de todos ideal para que los milicos puedan cagar a tiros a todos si se enteran de lo que hayan podido hacerle a un misionero extranjero de yankilandia). O lo invitaron de buena onda o la historia es cualquiera.
Alyssa, the way you have started an obsession with Mormons in me! I've always been a person who would be fascinated with murder cases, documentaries about cults, etc., but I'm eating this Mormon content up at an alarming rate😂 and your videos have been such an informative and interesting part of that! Thank you!💗
I hope you enjoy! There are so many horrible mormon murders where the doctrine plays a big role. I've been meaning to cover some of them but they're so dark and also so many :/
@@alyssadgrenfell I would love a video about that! Please do if you have time at some point. (And if you want of course.)
@alyssadgrenfell I was unaware of this but I'm not shocked to hear this. Interested in watching a video on this, please, if it's not too upsetting to you. Thank you for your content.
@@alyssadgrenfellLook into @mormontruecrime. She dives deep into all things Mormon and murdery.
@@LiMoo02I agree, such a video would be super interesting if she is okay with making it 😊
Please check out (and give your thoughts on) a tv show called "my husband is not gay". It's about Mormon men in Utah who are attracted to men, and also married to women!
OMG I have been wanting to do this one! It's crazy how much trended mormon media there is to cover 😂
YES! This is the show where all the husbands have like a "friend group" and casually give ratings on other men on the street (being the higher one a way of saying they needed to be almost restrained iirc? Lmao)
Yes!! I saw a video of this, and was desperately wanting Alyssa to talk about it
I think I saw it. It was something like "Not gay... SSA". I remember watching it thinking "Just come out of the closet already dudes!"
@@mylesmarkson1686 So I think I see the distinction that they are trying to make. They aren't allowed to act on their desires for men because Mormon, and they are essentially forced by their society to marry a woman, but they at least are accepting of their truth that they want to.
Alyssa, I'm not sure if you'll read this but I think the educational work you do is so valuable and I hope you never stop. I was raised non-denom Christian and your videos have really helped me to break free from the harmful side effects of religion in my life. Thank you for all you do, and I hope you and your family are happy, healthy, and safe. :)
Aw, same, been out of religion for 10 years now. I love her content too, it's cathartic. I bet your comment will make her so happy to see ❤
@@probowler2000 🫶🏻
Actually, now that I think about it, I'd love to hear your take on Midnight Mass. Its main focus is on Catholicism but it touches on deep issues of spirituality and religion. Some of it applies to every organised religion, I am reminded of the protagonist's conversation with the Priest where he speaks about "shiny churches in impoverished countries" and the learned helplessness of "God works in mysterious ways". I really liked the nuance of the series, at times it feels like an essay on the idea of faith and death. Also, there's a "twist"!
so the thing about the "why didn't you just leave" argument...
three things there. I've been told (but didn't experience myself so if I'm wrong please correct me) that missionaries who go to foreign missions have their passports held by the mission president in the mission office. this adds a layer of complication to the argument of "just leave" because leaving the country becomes much harder without your passport.
second, I did "just leave" about 16 months into the two-year mission, and when you get back home there's a HUGE social stigma attached to you which makes you a bit of a pariah. a lot of people on missions probably know this and decide to deal with whatever is happening in an attempt to save their family and social circles for when they do get back. Mormon's are incredibly insular people with a lot of internal social networking, and to be cut off from that is incredibly jarring. this was the case for me having gone from an incredibly large family and active community network to being completely alone and on my own all in the space of about two weeks.
third, while I was able to get dismissed and sent home by the mission president, when you say "just leave" when you consider how little money the missionaries themselves get access to, they kind of do have you stuck. I think it's likely similar to people in abusive relationships in that the person experiencing the abuse just doesn't have the financial means to get away. Sure they can physically relocate themselves away from the situation, but what then? where do you go? you probably don't know anyone you can stay with since on the mission you're so closely connected to just church members or people you're trying to teach, and even if you're in a developed nation, you really don't qualify to go to a shelter for people who are escaping abuse, so you're even further stuck there
That sounds horribly reminiscent of human trafficking.
@ you’re not wrong
@@spikemcc The early church had a pattern of doing missions, trying to find women to take them to mormon towns so they can become plural wives of mormon men there. These women were basically tricked to come to a foreign place where they had almost no means of ever escaping anywhere else.
So this would not be the first instance of human trafficking in the church, by a longshot.
Can confirm you leave your passport with the mission president if you go to a foreign mission. At least this was the case for me back in 1999. Another complication from being in a foreign mission is simple language barriers. You aren't going to speak the language very well (especially if it is earlier on), and a lot of the language you will be familiar with will revolve around religious topics. It's very isolating... on purpose.
“Heretic” is a very creepy film with an intense climax and surprise unraveling. If you see it, don’t say I didn’t warn you. It’s like you don’t want to see it but you’re riveted to the screen.
I think this is why I really needed to watch it a second time. The first time I was too worried about how scared I was to pick up on more of the subtlety!
Idk, as someone who already knew every religious reference they were making, it felt boring, predictable, and stupid at times. This movie is more for people who don't know much about general religion and such
I think the board with nails is a representation of the deconstructed cross. So, I think it's saying that only through deconstructing religion completely can you free yourself and possibly reach the peace and understanding that the natural world is all we have and a spiritual value of connection with nature is where true peace lies. Not sure but something like that seems like it's part of the message.
The butterfly symbolizes the beauty and mystery of the natural world and spiritual connection with her friend that brings her peace. I haven't seen the movie, but this seems like a logical takeaway from your description.
I think you’re onto something. One thing that stuck out to me is the scene with the doors. Belief vs disbelief. That no matter which you choose it’s illusion of choice because you’re still stuck within the confines of the institution itself. I think the message of the movie is that regardless of your personal beliefs or faith, religion (as in the institution not the faith) will always be used to control the believers. It’s even one of the main point of Christianity, with the Pharisees using religion to justify acts of violence and turning temples into markets. The faith or lack there of frees you as long as you make the choice and have hope, but the rigid walls of certain religions are tight and oppressive and often don’t treat the unfaithful well, such as how Sister Barnes ends up in comparison to Sister Paxton
Your English major is showing , Alyssa. I love your analysis.
As a non-religious person who grew up with a mom who tried to make me go to a local baptist church when I was young, I really enjoyed this movie. It was nice to have a “scary” movie not based around the Catholic Church. It was definitely “religious horror” in a new light to me. I enjoyed the ideas of iterations of the same thing in various examples from religion to food to music. 7.5/10 all around.
I was waiting for Lana del Rey! They never played her “rip off” of Creep / The air that I Breathe.
Yeah, for me Christian and Catholic horror is played out. I need something different to keep me interested. Catholic horror especially is just getting ridiculous and almost humorous at this point since they keep upping the ante on everything. See The Pope's Exorcist for a good example. The entire conceit of that film is that these things literally happened as shown in the movie. If even ONE of those things were shown to me as hard, documented evidence (not a "trust me bro it happened it says so on this paper) I will run back to church. I know that'll never happen, so I'll stick with atheism for now.
@@ChristopherSadlowski I watched it and the only thing I remember is Russell Crowe putting around in his vespa, he looked like he enjoyed that lol
Hi Alyssa! Just wanted to say you inspired me to do my Anthro masters thesis on Mormonism and their utilization of social media and I’m so excited to deep dive
That sounds fascinating, with possible side quests into disordered eating, weird clothing loopholes, and the "required" cosmetic surgeries to fit the Mormon social media "beauty standard." Enjoy!
Sounds like a really interesting topic. Especially with social media usage, as the Mormon church indirectly "sponsors" so many Mormon influencers/UA-camrs/Bloggers via Google AdSense.
I've never even thought about that before Alyssa made her video about the topic, but I'm sure there is much to research in respect to Social Media and Mormonism.
I love how I
1. don't live near the usa, or a country where mormonism is prevalent
2. had basically only heard of mormonism existing from "angels in america" before seeing this channel
3. Have not seen or heard of the movie
4. Can't wait to watch this video and am really glad it's an hour long
when friends tried to get me in "the church" I told them it was a made up religion by an American for Americans and No Thank You.
I would definitely recommend watching more of her videos if you find this one interesting, she has shed a lot of light on the “cultiness” of Mormonism and its always presented in a very interesting and watchable way!
Same for me but change "angels in America" to "book of Mormon" (the musical)
@@emilymoehrlin5371 Oh yeah, I've watched many of her videos, I just don't comment often. She's really skillful at making video essays! :D
I watched "Angels in America" at the recommendation of my ethics teacher at uni, and boy was I surprised 🤣
As a female, I remember working with a guy who was critical of me for working. It turns out that he was LDS and started questioning me. Creepy beyond belief.
little sick
An outdated viewpoint. I'm an LDS man and I would never have a problem with that. I'm afraid people like that give a bad reputation for the rest of us.
@@jmorgan3977I mean, a lot of LDS principles rely on pretty intense gender roles- and strictly adhering to them. It’s unsurprising that many people in your faith take it to the extremes
@@syd9394 while that's true, and I won't ignorantly deny it, I've never known any LDS men in my life who have viewed women like that. And I saw my father especially treat my mother as en equal if not even let her take lead on some things. But this is only my experience.
@@jmorgan3977 thank you for keeping an open mind! My family dynamic was pretty similar, my mom was in charge of the finances and housework was split pretty evenly- and I grew up in a religion (Catholic) and the congregation I went to really favored men. I’m glad you’ve experienced a healthy balance with the relationships in your life. Though, this may be nit picky, and I apologize if I’m reading to hard into this, but your wording of your father “let her take lead in things”, is still a pretty gender roled thing. Why does he need to “let” her take the lead? Just a thought. Again, I apologize if that’s a stretch.
I was like "wow how is Alyssa so good about analyses?" - then i realized our girl is an english teacher so of course shes great at this!
That scene in the beginning where the teenagers harass the sister missionaries brought up so many memories of being a missionary. I think they did a good job capturing what it's like to have to have strangers making fun of your daily.
You said something that helped clarify something for me. You talked about the reality that the believer is living in. The faithful Mormon or any deeply religious person has created a world in their mind that is different from the world that outsiders are perceiving.
oh yeah! absolutely. and its reinforced by the isolation and the idea that the world is evil!
The way I JUST left the movie theaters watching this and now you’ve posted a video?!!!? How lucky am I
Welcome, come on in, I’m baking a pie 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
I watched Heretic last nite. Was hoping that Jordan&McKay would have their reaction up, but they don’t. first time watcher 🤙fantastic analysis!
it doesnt come out in my country until christmas 😭 i was excited to watch it before the video but oh well
I am a never-Morm, Christian, church every Sunday my whole life kind of believer.
I went to Christian school and I did make the choice to be confirmed when I was 18, which is a typical age in my church. So in many ways, I am on the religion pipeline.
I find your perspectives on religion very interesting and important. They make me constantly examine myself to see if I am doing things because of my own well examined faith and convictions, or because I am being controlled. I watch exJW and exScientology content for the same reasons.
Thank you for sharing your experiences as a Mormon and now missionary.
I watched the film in a cinema in the uk. Two separate older (60+) couples left about half way during the film. Which makes me think what they thought it was about 😂? Either they were offended it was a horror/psychological thriller (not a Hugh Grant rom com) or about what is said about Christianity (clue is in the name) but what enticed them to the cinema still intrigues me today 😂
They got sleepy and went home to take a nap
It is about an old man who kidnaps and tortures two young women. I can understand how some people don’t want to watch that
maybe it was just too scary for them and they tapped out,i know some people who have done that (hell i did during terrifier lol)
@@confusedjello7292 That would've been me too. They probably thought they could handle it and in the end it was too much for them. Happens to me all the time. I'm an adult and I can't even watch thrillers without making my mom watch them with me so she can tell me when the violent parts are over 😭
Respectfully Mormons are not a Christian denomination. The Mormon claim to Christianity would be like a Jew calling themselves a Muslim. They really are an Americana cult that rips off abrahamic religion with their own wattpad bible and invasive practices. Christians do not consider Mormons one of the denominations because of the radically different theology/rituals/doctrine they hold.
About the single Elder that you mentioned as being a strange thing: When I lived in Taiwan in the 1980s, there were many Mormon missionaries. Once, one of them came to the apartment I shared with a male student. We started talking and he said that he wasn't supposed to do this but his companion had told him it was okay because he (the companion) wanted to do something on his own and they wouldn't tell anybody about it. Then he opened up about the doubts he had and how he had nobody to share them with. I felt sorry for him.
News flash, LDS Church:
A bishop - following policy, mind you - contacting a law firm instead of the police when someone reports CSA or DV to him also “runs counter to the safety and wellbeing of our communities.” The selective concern for the wellbeing of members is staggering. And downright nauseating.
I took the ending to be that she actually didn’t make it out, she died downstairs and her getting out was the realistic dream state like the other sister had as a kid before she died and the other kidnapped girl said about reality before dying etc - I think the sister died and when she saw the butterfly it was herself because she had reincarnated as a butterfly
That is so scary and I never thought of that aspect of their safety…:(
Like for me it was always encountering young male JW and obviously having good intentions but it would be really different for girls/women and still even the men of various proselytizing religions being thrown into door knocking is so unsafe
What I'm saying is that typically we view them as the nuisance/aggressor/threat, but never think of them as being prey to these opportunistic criminals I guess
My sticking points about the birth control are that the scar is way too long (it's usually much smaller, more like a dot than a line) and that the implant is metal instead of plastic.
I also appreciate that Sister Paxton was very honest about the fact that Sister Barnes would be made to feel guilty for using birth control. Both women are smarter than they initially let on.
The scar seemed off to me, too. During the scene in the living room when Mr. Reed first notices it and the camera draws attention to it, I assumed it was somehow related to Sister Barnes' dad's death since it didn't look like an implant scar and they'd been talking about it in the same scene. I thought it may have been from SH and that was supposed to be part of a reveal later.
@kaileewalden3586 I also thought it was a SH scar
As a lifelong atheist, something I really liked about the film that I'm still struggling to put into words was what I think it was trying to say about how atheism and trying to "disprove" religion can sometimes be weaponized in ways just as harmful as the control of religion itself.
I'm old enough to have watched the transformation of atheist UA-cam in particular from "disproving" religion to "disproving" feminism to ultimately just being yet another edgelord pipeline into the alt-right, and always felt really betrayed and confused by how that all went down.
I liked that, while Mr. Reed made a lot of really good points (that obviously I personally agree with, for the most part) none of that justified his objectively horrific actions. It's not like he was having a good faith conversation with these girls, or even trying to help them get out from under the control of religion, he just wanted to feel intellectually superior and exercise his own control and violence on them and the other women he was harming.
Like I said, I don't have it fully pinned down yet, but I think the main point I got from it was something along the lines of, it doesn't matter whether you have the "right" beliefs (the "one true religion" or lack thereof) it's all the same if you're just using it to be violent and hateful.
Absolutely! Dogmatic ideology is dogmatic ideology, whether it is religious, atheist, or a thing else.
Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on
\/\/A!!
At 2:36 the sister missionary says - "There were times, I know, we were trying to be robbed...." What a weird way to say this.
I watched this with my husband last night and was hoping you would make a video about it! I leaned over to my husband the first ten minutes in and said “these girls are nailing the Mormon awkwardness” 🤣 I enjoyed it but felt the ending was a little rushed.
Yes! Here I am! Haha I think especially Sister Paxton was great at the overly friendly/naive sister missionary. 10/10 performance.
Both actresses were raised Morman, which is probably why!
@@axfln4221 yes!! I made this comment before I had finished the video but that piece of information really helped it click into place, the girls were perfectly cast and Hugh Grant was amazing!
I think soon after getting stabbed in the stomach, she enters into a near death experience. She hallucinates Sister Barnes coming back to life briefly. Her escape, her moment with the butterfly in a pure white forest- that’s all her brain firing off as she dies.
Intelligent and insightful analysis. Far superior to any other that I have seen whether pro or anti Mormon. You have distinguished yourself with excellent work here.
I was hoping you’d cover this as someone with experience with this subject matter! One thing your interpretation has that I haven’t seen others mentioning is viewing Hugh Grant’s character as religion itself challenging the sisters. Wow that’s interesting!
I literally can’t wait for the ‘Book Of Mormon’ musical video
I saw the movie yesterday. I am a former Mormon and was a missionary 45 years ago in South America. After the movie I was having dinner and it came to my mind, their whole experience was just a slightly more intense Bishop’s interview and the points about control and everything are right on.
I’m amazed. I’ve watched many of your videos and have always respected your intelligence and honesty. But this is brilliant every moment. It was almost hard to believe, moment by moment, how precisely and deeply you saw into the details of the movie. What a delight to see someone thinking with such agility and meaning in real time.
As soon as "Mr. Reed" showed his own obviously well read Book of Mormon was the first real red flag that should have got the missionaries to protest and try to leave
45:14 (Never-mo, here) I actually HAVE seen a faithful Mormon review of Heretic that was VERY favorable. Jono and Alan from Cinema Therapy gave a spoiler-free review and they are both Utah Mormans who LOVED it. They also took the perspective that it was very nuanced. They even said that they expected to be offended but thought that it was fairly respectful of Mormon beliefs. I actually saw theirs first and was kinda waiting for your take for comparison!
I must have missed that, was this on their main channel, or on their patreon or something?
It's always so weird to me that they are Mormon... Like, they seem fairly tolerant open minded people, which is not what I would expect from a religion that teaches blind obedience and rigid adherence to social roles. Idk
@@michi4066I hadn’t watched them in a while and was a little surprised by that. I recall them mentioning being Christians on another video.
the movie is honestly not that deeply about mormonism specifically, and it treats it as basically equivalent to any religion. hugh grant's character does say a lot of the "awkward truths" about mormonism but since he's the antagonist i don't think it lands that hard lol
It seemed fairly clear to me that at the end of the movie when Sister Paxton suddenly starts witnessing "miracles" like Sister Barnes coming back from the dead and the model of the house strangely showing an escape route and when she goes outside and it matches Sister Barnes description of what near death hallucinations are like, and the image of the butterfly, that she is hallucinating as a result of dying. Then when the movie cuts out and "Knocking on Heaven's Door" plays, she's now dead.
I also believe that
Loving these deep dives into relevant media. Thanks for the content 👍
This is a fantastic video. The connects you draw between the mind games of Mormonism and the premise of the movie are fantastic and accurate. I was already excited to see the movie but this ramped me up even more.
*I have to give credit where credit is due* ! 🙌 GIRL you had me sucked into this video from *start* to *finish* lol. You did such a good job reacting to this movie.. from explaining all the different takes on the metaphors, breaking things down to a level that I could understand (being I was never a Mormon) and even mentioning your own experiences that you tied into this. Honestly you did such a good job, Allyssa! 👏 So now I’m curious and going to have to totally watch this movie now! 😅
I feel like, as a woman, behaving erratically is extra bad safety advice because I don't think a predatory man would be put off by a woman acting 'crazy'.
The staggering amount of violence against people with disabilities absolutely agrees with you!
Looking "crazy" might just make you more of a target for attack since someone having a psychotic episode or with extreme speech impediments won't be able to report to the police.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_people_with_disabilities
This is almost sold out at our local theater chain. It is discount night, so sales are a little better than usual. Still I think it might be a sleeper hit.
I've heard multiple people say their theaters were sold out, especially in Utah!
But not in Cedar or St George where they pulled it 😮
Excellent analysis and discussion of an interesting-sounding film. I'm never going to see it, but I thoroughly enjoy your discussion. As a retired English/American Lit teacher, I miss classroom discussions, and this kind of video is a real treat.
Thank you!
Also, you're really living your dad's prophecy that you'd be a teacher AND doing a phenomenal job of it! Be well!
As a Catholic, I was confirmed at a young age in the 1970s. (Accepting the baptismal vows as an "adult" to personally choose to become a member of the church.) It was a group experience and part of a series of rituals to become a "full" Catholic including first confession and first Communion. I definitely saw parallels with a friend who had his Bar Mitzvah a few years later. It makes a lot more sense that Confirmation now happens during high school (at least in my community) when the participants are older and can more reasonably be understood to be making an important decision for themselves.
In my church, there is also a strong adult convert program where people spend months preparing to be baptized or confirmed and there's a large ceremony before Easter to welcome them into the faith.
I think that having a spiritual life is important and acknowledge that we all take different paths to find that. I very much concur that children should not be coerced into fully committing to a religion until they reach an age of consent.
"People don't mess with crazy peoples", reveals two different ideas, one that the other is outside of the norm, two people actually do in fact mess with crazy people, like hurt and mock them.
The point is to be unpredictable, people won't go up and mock you if you need to act crazy once your already in danger, its sound advice
i think they mean like, you're less likely to get stabbed if you start tweaking tf out (with a gun act as calm as possible)
@orangesnowflake3769 People with mental illness are at 10x more risk of violent crime than those that aren't, so it's not really a protective factor.
@@orangesnowflake3769Yeah, the word “crazy” is reductive and removes nuance. Those who behave differently from a cultural norm are absolutely mocked, but by being “unpredictable” it can make a person more susceptible to attacks. Very concerning.
your analysis of the movie has actually enriched my experience of the movie thinking back on it
may i just say, that looking at you now, and then pics of you when you were an active member, your eyes now have so much more light in them.
I was so excited when I saw this movie last Thursday with my boyfriend, and I was able to pick up on all the Mormon references thanks to you! It made the movie so much more enjoyable and thought provoking having been informed on the LDS before going in. Super excited to see you react to this!☺️
I interpreted the house as a symbol of religion, or at least the institution of religion. Every room is a further step deeper down the rabbit holes. As you mentioned, the warm false opening to lure the girls in, then solidified and “locked in” as they enter the second room at the alter of indoctrination. They are preached to, and are given the false choice as a bit of an introductory ritual. As they go deeper under the surface the illusion breaks but they still have a “window of hope” in the basement that they turn to instead. The house is a maze, an enigma, and just like the metal in the walls and ceiling has cut them off entirely from the outside world too.
Mr. Reed, portrays himself as a “god” like figure. The god of choice, as if to signify to all of the women he has trapped over the years chose this, chose him, and chose their fate. But ultimately o think this shows his true figure as the religious/cult leader. Ultimately he is his own Joseph Smith. Pretending to have a wife while, this smiling happy and manipulative figure draws them in. He preaches and lectures to them. He’s making it up on the fly when things go wrong like Joseph Smith loosing some of the first translation of the Book of Mormon, and ultimately he does have his own “harem” of women hidden in his cellar just like Joseph tried to hide his polygamous wives. He’s even a bit of a trickster, using his lights and candles as a bit of smoke and mirrors, as he simultaneously describes how Joseph Smith found golden plates he translated using a seer stone in a hat. He even falsifies his own “miracles” like resurrection.
But ultimately I do see this is a religious neutral to positive. “Prayer may not work, but it makes people feel good” and it’s at this point that the viewer witnesses their own “miracle” when Barnes is able to use her last moments and “sacrifice” herself to save Paxton before presumably dying. By no means is Paxton actually in the clear however. She’s still bleeding out, and has to escape from the house (religion), and while the storm outside may be over, she is still in feet of snow (the pure white contrasting the dark, and bloody mess she has endured) miles from her church with a gut wound. It ends without the viewer being sure that she was rescued or got help. The viewer may have faith that her cell service will return and she makes it back to safe, and is able to bring help to rescue the other women inside, but ultimately there is no confirmation. She could just as easily get stuck in the snow, bleed out and die. But you never know for sure. You have to have faith.
If you can’t tell I LOVED the movie, and your deep dive as well.
Excellent analysis! I really appreciate your comprehensive perspective.
Edit: At 47:30 The analogy comparing religion to The Landlord’s Game (a brilliant political / economic teaching game made by a female Georgist activist) and its many kind of ripoffs / degradations “for the masses” is also quite interesting and stood out to me, thoughtful writing.
I mean this in the best way possible- I listen to you to fall asleep. Okay hear me out, it takes me a long time to fall asleep so I’m listening and I do know all of your videos now but I get excited when a new video drops because I start to know them by heart.
Your voice is comforting and what you speak about is interesting so it’s relaxing for me. Sorry but thank you for the content
Same. Not sure why, because there's no overt attempt at ASMR effects, and the topics are fascinating. But I also go back and listen to them later.
Sameee these days it’s either Alyssa re-runs or rain asmr 😂
Just watched the film a couple days ago. I will say, managing to binge your videos over the prior month made me see it on a whole other level. So glad to get your perspective on it!
As for the temple ceremony on film: there is an episode of Big Love where Barb goes to the temple and a lot of the ceremony is shown, including the secret handshakes. That scene has stayed with me since I was a kid and your videos on the temple have relieved my years-long curiosity on the topic.
I remember that scene and thought to myself, that must be made up, or maybe it was FLDS. But now turns out it’s typical Mormon temple stuff. Blew my mind.
Great analysis! I was really hoping to see a mormom/exmo perspective on this film and lo and behold your video appeared 😁 loving the mormon-based entertainment content lately, keep up the excellent work!
OMG that blueberry pie candle lol. I'm gonna pause it right there cause I havent seen this yet, but then I'll come back and finish. Love it.
Bob Dylan wrote Knocking on Heaven's Door about Military Service Members. The badge refers to a Military badge. The Viet Naam War was taking place when it was written, but it is about all Military conflict & the prospect of dying due to forced or even coerced Military Service, especially in the context of a war that is being fought in the interest of economic protection of the mega-wealthy powers that be, etc. It was written for the movie "Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid" & is representative of a lawman character in that movie- supposedly the lawman's voice. Which, it does function that way in the film. But Bob Dylan, being himself: a man of deep layered thought, intent & meaning didn't write it with that simplicity- simply about one dimension, a single character, in a single story, at a single point in time. It has much, much broader, deeper meaning❤
It was written for the Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid soundtrack. It's very specifically about a frontier lawman in the old west.
I was recently away for a few days, and went to see Heretic without knowing anything about it other than the cast, and the fact it was a horror movie. I didn’t see a trailer, so I wasn’t aware it had LDS characters, so that was a pleasant surprise. I loved it! While I’m a nevermo, I am very interested in cults and high control groups from a psychological/sociological perspective and the characterisation of the women in it felt very authentic from my own limited dealings with LDS missionaries and everything I’ve read and seen on channels like yours. I found myself grinning at lots of little details in it - the references to garments that you mentioned, and other things like them talking about “choosing the right” like they’re taught in church. The entire film was carried on the weight of the three main actors, and I think they were all fantastic. Hugh Grant was so creepy, and had a real undertone of malevolence under his polite and smiley exterior. Definitely recommend the film to anyone who likes horror films. ☺️
i loved this analysis. a lot of deep dives into the nuances and the symbolism with knowledge and insight that may have been looked over. it really reminds me of how much i kinda loved doing these in school. makes me want to watch this movie
Love your extended metaphor analysis
Wow, a very in depth analysis on this work!! Your teacher vibes come out strongly here! You've written the ultimate essay in UA-cam format!!👏👏👏 A+
I wouldn’t normally go for a movie like this but you deeper interpretation really sold it. I’ll definitely watch
I liked this movie, and i think your analysis as Mr. Reed being religion is spot on. I thought it was interesting that Mr Reed talks about himself being young and earnestly seeking through all this doctrine,but then over time he learns the "true religion" which leads to him having many "wives" aka prisoners. So many people seem to start out earnestly seeking, and then eventually become so entrenched that they lose all respect and care for those that don't believe as they do, which leads to horrific words and actions. (Hmm, our future VP suddenly popped into my head- weird). Anyway, i would love to see the movie again. I really appreciated the nuance and details. My husband was sad that it wasn't just 2 hours of an atheist dunking on Mormons 😅 (i was raised Mormon and have been out for about 15 years and he was raised more neutral), but what can you do?
Literally been waiting for your take on this one since the trailer! I haven't seen it but I don't mind spoilers.
I saw this movie with my boyfriend this weekend and I was telling him all about your channel, so I am super excited to watch your reaction! Love your videos!
Thanks for making this! Seeing your reaction & hearing your thoughts on this is the first thing that came to mind when I saw the trailer.
I so wish 15 year old me could have watched your content. While I have always been agnostic I was friends with MANY Mormons in high school (ca. 2005) and went to several church dances and had other moments where in hindsight those “friends” were trying to preach to me. I just wish I had the education that you have brought me to be able to respond better
I'm not even 20 minutes in and I've already interrupted my husband reading his book in the other room because you mention things that trigger vivid memories of a group (one that I always suspected was Mormons on their mission ) of people that lived in our old apartment complex. I never had any direct interactions with them, but saw them somewhat regularly from across the parking lot or something. They were like two buildings down. There were 4 girls on the first floor corner apartment and 4 boys directly above them on the second floor. The first couple weeks that I noticed them around, I usually saw the 4 girls with their bikes waiting on the bench for the bus. Then they got a car (our public transit sucks here but visitors often expect a lot more out of it)... oh it was a whole production every time they came/went from their parking spot. One of them had to stand outside of the car and direct the driver by voice and hand signals. She even wore the little orange safety vest. She would slowly and safely guide her companion out of the parking spot, then run to hop in the car while taking off the vest. (the other two girls sitting in the backseat)
One night I came home from work (I worked odd hours, would get home around 10pm) and saw the boys outside their apartment. It looked like they were trying to build a human pyramid! Lmafo! My best guess is that they had locked themselves out of their apartment somehow and were trying to get their second floor apartment window open. The girls were standing out on their porch watching.
They appeared to have game nights occasionally. I only say this b/c it was the only time you'd see the shades fully open with all the main lights on at night inside the girl's apartment. Anyone within sight could clearly see everything going on (by design, I'm sure. b/c the boys were there) and they would all be sitting around the coffee table playing some kind of game.
Beautifully thorough of you! Great video!
Excellent job!! Loved the connection of take this badge off of me to mirmon missionaries. SO MUCH to think about!!
Ex Mormon here. Just saw the movie and I love your analysis. Spot on I think. A couple of additions: when sister Paxton escaped and stumbled into the woods with the morning sun rising, I immediately thought of Joseph Smith and the grove of trees.
Also-I went through the temple for the first time in 1983… I found the manner in which Sister Barnes was killed symbolic, especially considering she was the more nuanced of the two of them.
A lot to process and unpack after seeing this. I thought it was superbly written and cast, and was masterfully done.
As soon as I finished this movie I immediately thought, “I really hope there’s a reaction/response to this on the channel.”
31:05 I really appreciate someone talking about this. I honestly regret being baptised at 8, and I always feel invalidated because “well it was your choice”.
I didn’t think it was a choice. Nobody told it was even an option, I just thought that’s what you do when you turn eight. It makes me sad.
Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on
\/\/A!!!
I also love the idea that the butterfly with relation to religion, much like the butterfly effect, deconstructing is so painful that you feel as though you are turning into goo because everything about your existence needs to be reworked but once you reemerge, with a single flap of your new wings, will also ripple through the world and cause change - but maybe that's just me lol
This is beautiful.
Your analysis was spot on and amazing!!
Alyssa, thank you for your insightful commentary. A pleasure listening to you.
I'm also an exmormon who served a mission in Germany. I do believe there is something, whether intuition or not, but one teaching appt we had scheduled and traveled an hour to get to this guy's apartment, as we were walking up to his door I said aloud to my companion "I have a bad feeling about this." And she replied something along the lines of "I'm glad you said something because so do I." We both turned around and traveled an hour back to the city.
There are SO many stories like that especially from sister missionaries I can't help but believe something protects them.
I dunno. If there is something, it's not very consistent...plenty of counter cases.
I was rely hoping you’d cover this movie. I kept thinking about you and all I’ve learned from this channel
Regarding the birth control pill: A girl I know who is Mormon was on the pill during her mission because her period is very painful and she wanted to avoid having to go around while on a lot of pain killers and feeling awful. Taking a day off wasn't an option
Your breakdown is awesome
Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on
\/\/A!!!!