@@juli-annb.anderson8816 Given a close examination of her character, it is unfortunately true. She was not an admirable human being. As Empress, wife and mother she could have accomplished much good, but she could not be bothered.
Funny how your comment was almost exactly what I was about to say. The Disney ideal makes so many people complete idiots. The Romanovs are another example, with Nicholas as the princess. :o)
I enjoyed hearing about Archduchess Sophie especially, recognising real strong women for their accomplishments and caring of their family is always interesting. I haven't actually seen any of the aforementioned depictions of Sisi as a tragic heroine and the Archduchess as a wicked stepmother. Strange how someone with a recorded lack of care for their children like Sisi, is cast as a heroine! At the very least make her flawed to reflect reality
Romanticizing is not their fault! Rather a phenomenon made by others! And now everyone is criticizing the historical figures, although they had/have nothing to do with it!!!
Stop acting like you guys don’t like having her image connected to you. She’s literally the only thing still keeping you guys on the proverbial map. Without her your most known export would be Hitler
Well who are the people buying these things? She is most famous in Austria and other German speaking countries. She is known elsewhere too but she isn’t as famous as someone like Marie Antoinette internationally. Some people in Vienna must be also amping those buying and not just selling. Expecially those who don’t study history and see the merchandise and her in media.
I think this is a very fair, if not kind, portrayal of Sisi. Admittedly, I do have a kind of morbid fascination with her, and I expected this to be a factual takedown of the way recent media has romanticized her. But you presented her in a very realistic but compassionate manner. Sisi was a deeply troubled woman. There's no reason to sand off the sharp edges of anyone's truth, yet we tend to sanctify the deceased as if they were not real, flawed human beings. Thank you for this honest portrait of such a complicated historical figure ❤
It’s kind because it is a whitewashing. Never forget that the real sisi was a sadistic psychopath who took great joy in personally shooting bear cubs in the face to then have them stuffed and used as garbage cans, one of which is still preserved in her apartments.
Elisabeth wrote in her diary along the line: "One makes a life altering decision at 15 when you are a child yourself we're you can't even estimate the consequences of this decision.... She was too young, didn't fit in, wasn't raised to be in that environment,was so vain that she refused to be fotographed after she turned 35, had no role model, had the rather unfortunate personality of the Wittelsbacher family and had no clue how to act properly with her children! Although when looking around to other royal families at that time you can see similar behaviours, like Queen Victoria who wasn't exactly a loving mother either. In other words she had a ton of flaws, like everyone else! In life she was criticised to no end and romanticised to no end after her death just like Princess Diana.
@@gabak1292 Queen Victoria was kind of a b***h. A lot of it was because of her mother. She was extremely narcissistic and selfish. She also was probably mentally ill from a few hundred decades of inbreeding. I have yet to see any video saying we should stop glorifying the Victorian anything. No, we have Princess/Empress Vicky (also a pretty bad mother) reporting to Queen Victoria (who hated being a mother) what a bad mother Elisabeth is. So a pot is just telling a black kettle “hey, Empress Sisi may be as black as us.” Did Sisi physically torture any of her children because they were born deformed?
She had a troubled connection to her children, because as the first ones were born, they were taken away from her, put under the control of her mother-in-law. Probably, best case scenario, to not have them experience the same troubles she did. Did that make it right? Of course not. Then her daughter died at a very young age, in a situation where Elisabeth finally had her way: She brought her along on a trip abroad. Do you not think that would do something to her self esteem, her confidence as a mother? All on top of the fact that she was still growing up herself and always trying to come to terms with her life situation. All of that without any good psychological advice, which just wasn't existant at the time.
Ouch. I have agoraphobia, social anxiety disorder, avoidant PD and other related disorders. I have only learned of Sisi through this video and while I'm not a psychologist (armchair or otherwise), the many relatable parallels are undeniable. So much so that as the creator spoke of Sisi I felt like I was constantly being punched in the gut. One could say that having an emotionally unsupportive family is how someone becomes lost and tangled like Sisi in the first place (I'm *not* excusing nor forgiving her bad behavior). Just like diabetes, many mental health issues can only be managed, not cured -- meaning they stay with you for life. Every minute, every day. Yet, unlike diabetes, loved ones expect you to just snap out of it. To "choose to be happy." To be heroically consistent. If that was possible it wouldn't be an illness. It hurts my heart to see the same lack of understanding now as hundreds of years ago. The difference between people like Sisi and those that overcome diversity has nothing to do with strength or weakness. It has to do with what kind of emotional support system they have, and how stable it is. I'm sure you love your Sisi even if you don't understand her illness. However, if she did have diabetes, wouldn't you study the disease to understand what she's going through, to determine how you may be able to help? You can't imagine how much every eye-roll hurts -- knowing that no matter how hard you try you won't be able to cast off the wrong things about you that disappoint your family. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty or be argumentative. I just saw your comment and hoped perhaps I could do some good by showing another perspective. It can be a lonely world, for all of us.💜
@@CleoHarperReturns If you are a kind and decent person most of this video doesn't apply to you. Sisi spent much of her time wandering nomadically around Europe. She was hardly a true agoraphobe or anxious of people. She wasn't afraid to leave her house -- in fact she was rarely in her house. Sometimes she built houses and didn't even live in them. Her death partly resulted from her habit of wandering around openly in public without security. You don't have to take this video personally.
Mental illness was common in the family because they married first cousins. Her cousin Ludwig and more so his brother had dilapidating episodes of bipolar disorder and psychosis. She was spared the most severe symptoms but nonetheless she struggled with mood disorders her whole life. I can empathize with her coz mental illness also runs in my family but luckily for my relatives unlike Sissi they have access to mental health services that didn’t exist in the 19th century.
@@iluvcamaros1912 Sorry, missed this reply...I never said Sisi had any of these disorders, I said that I did. While every person's illness is unique to their genetics and experiences, there are certain truths most mentally ill people have in common -- such as the way "normal" people approach mental health. Such as, not being heard. Something else you didn't hear was that I didn't take the video personally. I took the comment personally. Why shouldn't I? It *is* personal. It's not about politics (in which case I'd call your reply strawmanning). I didn't disrespect anyone, or lash out at the OG commentator. I saw the potential for a teachable moment and took a chance. Feels to me like you took it personally as well, since you were the only one to reply to me. I'm not sure what I did to invoke your hostility but it's not what I set out to do. You always have the option to ignore and move on.
@@CleoHarperReturns Most of the interpretations I've seen online of SIsi have portrayed her extremely sympathetically and generously, often downplaying her faults. She's called the princess Diana of the 19th century for a reason. I think the author's intent is to push back against this narrative of Sisi being a tragic, persecuted, victim, stuck in the wrong time, and instead portray a woman who in her melancholy, self perpetuated her own problems and hurt the people around her in the process. This results in the video not being particularly sympathetic.
I can't help but think of Princess Diana - they are not similar in personality or behaviour, but they do share one startling similarity: people have constructed a myth around a reality, and fallen in love with a dream. I suspect (more than a little) that this dream is really about self-love. People want to believe in a fairy tale princess, that dreams do come true. When you scratch the surface even slightly, you find a very different reality. We should not hero-worship these people.
We actually dehumanize our fellow beings when we hero-worship them. All human beings are fallible and are vulnerable, even the brightest and strongest among us.
it is odd how people love putting diana on a pedestal as if she was this perfect human being who did no wrong and everything charles and camilla did was awful (yes, she didn't deserve to have been treated that way by him) but viewing these people, in a black and white perception just doesn't seem exactly right. humans are flawed, and complicated, and multifaceted all around......
Both married very young, to a man they didn't really fit, with no idea what they were getting themselves into, and neither handled it well. However, for all her shortcomings, I'm not aware of Diana bullying her staff the way Sissi did, and she definitely wasn't so self-centred.
I think she was beautiful, but I don't romantisize her. I see her as a very unhappy woman, who when barely out of childhood was forced into a marriage and life that she didn't want, and wasn't prepard for, by someone who decided that he wanted her because she was pretty. What a very sad life.
Actually, I'm not surprise that Empress Elizabeth is as popular as she is and I honestly do not think she is a role model, but rather a living myth, the ultimate sad girl. She hit so many boxes of this aesthetic that fascinating so many of us, that it is marvelous. Beautiful girl living through her own Cinderella story, yet finding it her own tragedy rather than fairy tale. Toxic, but still beloved by many. Fascination with her (which I'm not immune to by any means) can say a lot of us as society.
As much as I agree she was troubled and to blame for much; her mother-in-law was narcissistic. Not simply a powerful woman but someone who used control and family to manipulate someone. Regardless of her reasoning, it caused a lot of the issues.
Aktuellere Forschung zeichnet ein völlig anderes Bild von Sissis Schwiegermutter, das weder narzistisch noch bösartig zu sein scheint. Vielleicht weiss es niemand richtig.
Right?! Like yeah, on the one hand, if my baby was taken from me, I would live in that nursery - I would have to be kept away by violence - but on the other hand Sophie TOOK HER BABIES.
@@SirGeorgeofWorcestershire are you advocating that someone using kids and such as collateral doesn't cause psychological damage to someone already weak of constitution?
I think it's safe to say that she probably did suck as an empress, mother, and person in general. But her life and circumstances also really sucked, and she probably saw no way out of it. I would have sucked, too, if I were in her shoes.
@@hustle_rose - But you have far better chances than anyone else. She had it so good in terms of freedom and riches that she could forsake husband and duties, foster her immense vanity, vagabond around as she pleased and even have whole palaces built she never lived in. She actually had it all. She was simply in her own way. Maybe she would have needed a challenge, something to achieve instead of endless money and freedom.
way to find fault in everything she did but excuse sophie, her mother in law, for her every move that clearly led to sisi's mental state. especially comparing elizabeth being miserable to sophie just deciding to be happy. has a very strong vibe of smb telling a depressed person "oh, but have you /tried/ to be happy? i think you should just try"
I think that is a fair assessment, but I also think it’s fair to put mindset into perspective. It’s something I’ve been working with my therapist on. Our perspective on life can really help. If we lay down and let the world trample us, it can be hard to get back up. There is something to be said about making something out of your situation, however, people should not be judged if they don’t react to situations positively. Elizabeth SHOULD be criticized, however, as she abused her children in response to her circumstances, which is never okay.
I think it maybe more as "accepting role and position and try to find happiness, rather than despair". I react to many things different to my close relatives, who react with panic and fear to anything happening in their lives. It is partially my conscious choice not to. I have friend who is in not greatest marriage, but she finds fun in life, rather then trying to make others' life hell. Women's life at the time was the life of the property - your role was to get a husband, possibly wealthy one and chosen by family, give birth and cope with the situation you didn't choose and couldn't change. You could try to adjust - like current Princess of Wales do, smile, wave to the crowds, visit poor orphans or veterans, produce offspring. I don't know if she is happy, at least can imitate. You can also rebel, like Sissi, Diana or Sarah and loose - royal machinery is too powerful Of course Sissi could be too sensitive to do so
@@shigellashigella Diana is different from Sissy, Sissy just was horrible i think because she wanted to control all too despite her mother in law. Royalties then where taught how to maintain order despite any circumstances, they where strict with it and those who came out tough did and those who came out a tyrant was , its all in there personality. Sissy was just horrible.
continue excusing that Sophie part, while Sisi herself, turned out to be just as bad as a mother in-law, if not worse. Well you defend Sisi's behavior on that and not Sophie's?
Listen I was expecting her to be a secret mean girl but I found out she was married at sixteen against her will, thrown into a gilded prison and was pregnant within a month of her marriage and was pregnant again the same year she gave birth to her first child. She probably didn’t want that man touching her
Most women married young in those days, and most marriages were arranged. That does not make Sisi any different and wouldn't be an excuse for being self-centred, self-adoring, egoistic, her looks- and her weight-obsessed. She slept in a sitting position with her hair tightened to the wall to preserve her hair, to avoid any wrinkles on her face. There was no place for a man in her bed. She fell pregnant out of obligation as that is usually the biggest part of the deal called the royal wedding. The aim was to produce a male heir and, if lucky, some spare males. It was like that. Female heirs are legally acceptable now in a few countries, but not everywhere.
@@Anna-v2f6mthat doesn't make it less wrong. have u examined the psychological reason why she might have been obsessed with her looks? the maker of the video called her uneducated, unrefined, and says that her mother in law belittled her. they likely complimented her looks, which is why she felt she needed to maintain them to have any worth to these controlling people. She wasn't allowed to hug her family, her children were taken from her and her husband CLEARLY only liked her for her looks. It's a rational psychological response to the situation.
I mean, I feel a lot of your argument here hinges on the idea that Sophie was misunderstood (feels like this video is a sympathy piece for Sophie, which is fine, but definitely alters things), and supports that just "deciding to be happy" is a feasible cure for what was obviously depression, which points us to the idea that Sisi was just a spoilt brat, and this is ridiculous. Yes I agree that Sisi had problems (part of colonial system, sad rich girl, etc.), and that depression should not be romanticized (like with Princess Diana), but as informative as this is, this video is not what I expected. Liberal dose of historical imagination here. -Edit to add that I don't think we should idealize her, but this title and idea is just as off as her legends can be. She was a terrible empress of course, but this seems to focus a lot more on her as a person.
Why do you believe that romanticizing illness is a problem to begin with? Because romanticizing illness takes the stigma away from it. For most of human history any type of illness has had a stigma especially mental illnesses. So for you to stand there and say it's wrong when it's changing people's minds and making things easier for those who suffer from those diseases. Why exactly is that a bad thing? Why aren't people and artists allowed to romanticize their own diseases or why is it wrong for people without the illness to see beauty in it? Who are you to say they can't? Beauty can be found in anything including illnesses. And if romanticizing their illness makes them feel better and makes it easier to live with the illness by changing people's perceptions than who are you to say that's wrong?
I have no sympathy for tyrants either in governing an empire or within the home. Sophie was a control freak at best (trying to be nice). However, the most recent depiction of her I am not a fan of its does not capture her complexity at all.
@@lesliea.6440 This is the same way i also think about her. I am indeed grateful to hear from you. I wish you a lovely good morning from Lincolnshire England🤗
Yet she was... All this melancholy misery and negativity often are part of narcissistic and terrible people! Because those people think that life owes them something and they're not mature enough to deal with negative situations.. Of course being married at such a young age was a very difficult situation as it was (and is ) tlo deal with your in-laws who always criticize their bride and not their son for every mistake in their marriage. But those are literally everyday problems that we are required to deal with and being happy or making peace with the people around us requires US to try for it ! She was blessed by having so many beautiful children,she was blessed with beauty ,nobility, luxury and even with power to do some. good in the world ,and in her mind she chose to swe herself as q defensless tragic heroine! I ll never defend her..
This feels like a hit piece written by someone who never experienced any mental struggles and never went through the harrowing process of giving labour. The victim blaming put on a literal child here was startling. Elisabeths struggles are swept under the rug or just casually thrown to the side just to list all the things she should have Decided to be Happy about. How dare she be unhappy when she had beauty and wealth? How dare she be a terrible mother at the age of 16, being pushed aside by her mother in law who was being described as positively domineering? How dare she not console her 1 year old daughter who I am willing to bet money on she was not really allowed to have a bond with as she grieved the loss of a child? I don't know or even care what she did later in her life. The lack of empathy in the first 20 minutes are chilling.
That had to have been rough. And I do apologize for saying this but, I after my experience, I avoid people who tell me they have bipolar disorder. My ex-friend who was bipolar, was constantly miserable, would denounce and demonize me. She would start fights with strangers by accusing them falsely of committing vile acts, and played victim. Her boyfriend, who was also a diagnosed bipolar, behaved the exact same way. A good friend of mine, who's mother died would always cry to me about her father, who was bipolar. She used to tell me how one minute he would be nice, sweet and kind,then suddenly he would turn incredibly mean and vile. She used to tell me she thanked God for her father's days of depression. During his long weeks of depression, he would leave her alone and give her peace.
@gregguralnik2512 your feelings are 100% valid. Untreated bipolar can be horrifying. My mother passed on a few conditions (ADHD for me and Bipolar with my sibling) but decided that our conditions weren't real and said we needed our asses beat instead. We were left untreated until our mid-20s when we finally learned that we'd been diagnosed as kids. My sibling does everything right to keep their condition in check and so do I. Mental illness/ neurodivergence is never your fault, but it's your responsibility to seek treatment and learn coping mechanisms. To this day, I refuse to baby anyone who refuses treatment/ therapy and uses their conditions as a free pass to treat others like garbage.
@@JenniJemm thanks you. Just so you know, if a friend were to tell me he or she was bipolar, I wouldn't just drop them and run for the hills. My ex friend and her boyfriend, were a decade older than me, and with them, being friends was a nightmare. It no longer felt like a friendship at a certain point. It felt like I was raising two grown children.
I find your Sophie apologetics very curious! This mother in law sounds like a terror to me! She rolled over the 16 year old bride like bejewelled steamroller. Anybody would have been depressed in her presence!
Yo okay because I'm listening to this and I'm like, yes nobility is the status and I'm hearing her being called narcissistic and all of the negative under the Sun; but she was chosen by a grown ass man, as a child? Now not to be given access to family and not the one she created ??? Then suffers a child loss ??? They had all of that power to restrict her in ever eay shape and form; and yet that didn't apply to Franz Josef?? Okay. Cool. They all wanted her to change everything she has always been, even with warning signs??? Boy.
not to mention her older sister being raised to marry the man she was forced to. She probably never imagined having to take her sisters place and be forced into a role she never wanted. Then impregnated by someone she didn't love at such a young age. Even if it was normal for people to marry young, she didn't have that expectation when she went to meet him.
I think you're very harsh on her. Considering she was brought up *very* sheltered and then suddenly had to go and marry the emperor, at only 17 years old. She wasn't allowed to raise her own child, and once she managed to claim a bit of motherhood back for herself her eldest child suddenly died. She had no mental health support because that simply did not exist, and from what we know of her I think it is not far fetched to say she may well have been neurodivergent.
she was just anouther insest riden link in the god auful chain of the austrian monarchy. screw the wittlesbatches, screw house von hapsburg, nero typical or divergenent she was a incompatent who impacted the lives of the lower class.
Depression makes the person much more selfish, you’re the only one suffering, you’re in need of this and that to feel better, and you become opportunistic, and very mean to the ones you feel are the cause of your sadness, or just the people in front of you. It’s sad, but very human; she maybe wanted kids, but not being 16, she wanted comfort, but not loads of people judging her at all times, she maybe had anxiety seeing or touching people, being at the centre of attention or being lonely in general, she probably wanted a family just like hers, big, full of love, and generally free. Those things made her bitter towards practically anyone else, happy people don’t hurt others, and she was pretty happy before marrying.
I think it's so judgemental to blame her for being a bad mother. First of all it's even mentioned in the video royals were only expected to be a parent in a biological role, not really raising them. And also motherhood wasn't a choice. The only thing you could do to prevent it would be abstinence. And you would be definitely overruled by your husband and societal expectations.
@@hothotheat3000 she didn't want to be anything of what she was expected to be. She was quite self-centered and would have been happier as a free-spirited single. She was born 150 years too early.
I think this was unnecessarily cruel at points to someone, who was previously established and recognized as not being prepared for this role, married way too young, and lived somewhere unfamiliar. Your mother in law naming your own child after herself and having her nursery at her wing must have been quite hard to accept at 17 years old, a year into a marriage with someone she hardly knew, living at a stragne place with unfamiliar rules. You are asking a teenager to do better and to be a bigger person when she was objectively unprepared and outnumbered.
Yeah. She was clearly not really cut out for her role as a public figure and she hated the environment she was in. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with a system that then forces a person to take on a very important job when their only qualification is their spouse.
And then add the possibility of some form of depression after giving birth and having no motherly authority over your children, I can definitely see why she would give up involvement with them. Feeling like an incubator rather than a mother.
My thoughts exactly. Sisi romanticizations are not good and they are unfairly and subjectively positive takes on Sisi, but this video is not a fair and neutral and objective take either. This is just the opposite of romantization, an unfairly and subjectively negative take on her. It is far too apologetic to Sophie, who was indeed many times cruel to her and did irrepairable damage, it blames Sisi for things even not under her control, and it twists even her good deeds into something bad, with very malicious assumptions about her supported by no fact. Like how can you assume that when Sisi saved Rudolf from the abusive tutors it was not for Rudolf himself but about her wanting to assert power? Excuse me, what? Why such malice? Why can't we just accept it for what it was, her helping her son, without making wicked assumptions about her inner motives for it? Or when she helped the empire a lot by contributing to the 1867 compromise with Hungary. Why not just acknowledge her good deed? Why instantly jump into reproaching her for not doing the same for Bohemia? Like, that just went so far in blaming Sisi for literally everything that it got ridiculous 😅
Double-suicide and questions of morality aside, I just have to comment: I find the statement about Rudolf having "none of the Wittelsbach courage" and therefore sitting there for a while before shooting himself pretty insensitive. First of all, courage or cowardice don't have much to do with mental illness (which Rudolf was quite certainly suffering from, even by contemporary accounts) or suicide. Mental illness is a disease. And Rudolf's situation specifically was quite dire - he had been traumatised from childhood, AND thrust into a politically hopeless position after what seemed like an indefinite deterioration of the liberal order in Europe in 1888. Militarism and politics of hatred and everything he was deeply opposed to reigned, as best exemplified by Wilhelm II's Germany, and Rudolf even saw a looming dissolution of the empire before he would have the chance to inherit it (there were calls for an Anschluss, ie. splintering Austria-Hungary and joining the German-speaking lands to the German empire)... Rudolf was sick with an incurable STD, addicted to morphine, felt like he had failed both personally and professionally, and there was little hope of his situation improving. I'm wondering if anyone, Wittelsbach or otherwise, would've been any more "courageous" in those circumstances than he was. If anything, I think it's courageous of him to hold on to his liberal politics (and his staunch defense of Jews in the face of rising antisemitism, might I add!) for as long as he did, when almost everyone at court was against him. (Also - do you have any sources for Rudolf's "sadism"? I think the only reports we have of him are accounts of him being a "womanizer". Not the nicest person to his lovers to be sure, mostly in that he seemed to have treated them as disposable and interchangeable, but I think this violent tendency is usually overplayed in fiction and we don't have actual proof of it from primary sources. If anything, Stéphanie says in her memoirs that Rudolf was "totally changed" in the last few years of his life, when his political and personal situation became more desperate, implying that violent verbal outbursts and open threats of suicide weren't something he would've been particularly prone to before.) Secondly, I honestly think the Wittelsbach "family traits" (whether courage or 'insanity' or any other quirk frequently ascribed to them) are pretty overmythologised and overemphasised. It points to an unscientific deterministic view of history where people are assumed to inherit all of their traits from predecessors, instead of being shaped by their environment and making independent choices as a reaction to their environment. There is a genetic component to mental illness and personality, to be sure, but in my opinion there is no need for us, in the 21st century, to repeat 19th century notions of deterministic inheritability. If Sisi was never an empress, she would've lived a completely different life. The circumstances in Vienna contributed to the cult of personality and her so-called "narcissism". Becoming a perfect, idolised celebrity was just about the only choice the leading aristocratic woman of the empire in the mid-to-late 19th century would have had, because popular hysteria would've in all likelihood dictated it so. This video is very well-made, though! I just wanted to point this out haha. I really recommend Brigitte Hamann's book "Rudolf: Crown Prince and Rebel" to anyone in this comment section looking for more information on him.
First of all, as a person who has experienced suicidal ideation, THANK YOU for calling out that insensitive comment! "Oh he wasn't COURAGEOUS enough to commit suicide on his own" - man, GTFO with that bullshit. Like as much as I think that manipulating a teenage girl into going out with him was pretty heinous, I also understand, to a frankly terrifying degree, having "rational" reasons for feeling depressed and suicidal, while also having just enough self-preservation instinct to still chicken out before doing it. While I don't think suicide is the only option in most cases, when you are in that place, it sure seems like it! Also, thank you so much calling out the "Wittelsbach insanity" or "Wittelsbach nature" bullshit. That one is so nonsensical and annoying, probably my most severe pet peeve of popular history.
I honestly find this entire video pretty insensitive. Accusing a 17-year old who is being bulldozed by her very powerful and domineering mother in law at every turn of not giving enough of a shit about her children, who she was purposefully alienated from, by said mother-in-law, because she was too much of a child herself to deal with the situation in an adult way, is quite an unsympathetic and one-sided view of the situation. Also comparing Elizabeth unfavourably to Sophie right before this to set up a dichotomy of dutiful, sensible and dependable Sophie and touchy, immature, flighty Elizabeth by implying that their situations were at all similar, when in fact they really weren’t is at best very unflattering framing. Sophie was the eldest daughter of a King and (much like Helene) had been raised her entire life with the expectation of getting into a loveless marriage of political alliance and because of this was MUCH better prepared for the pressures of leading a highly public life, court politic, actual politics, and the personal challenges of carving out happiness, leading such a life. Sisi, by contrast was much younger (yes, 16 to 19 is a world of difference in this regard) and much less worldly, experienced and educated, when this lifestyle was thrust upon her. Was Elzabeth this perfect human being from a fairytale? No. She certainly wasn‘t. Was she a great mother? Again. No, she wasn’t. She was a teenager with mental health issues, who grew into an occasionally unpleasant, selfish and insensitive others needs and feelings adult with mental health issues because she was put into an incredibly high pressure situation at a very young age, received zero support and was borderline bullied and never got the chance to develop her personality in a healthy way. When she finally carved out some power of own, she wielded it to control her environment, in order to ward off more pain. That, she DID have in common with Sophie. As for the Wittelsbacher nature, I‘m sure there was a propensity for mental illness running in the family, but that’s probably more related to all of the incesteous marriages that were going on, and I‘m sure they didn‘t have any higher average of mental illness than any other European royal house. They just happened to have a few very high profile cases with King Ludwieg, Elizabeth and Rudolf in a relatively short timespan, who couldn‘t be easily hidden, or headed off in time for another person to step in for succession.
@@lainiwakura1776 No :) You wouldn't call someone a coward for hesitating to follow through any other bad choice, made under duress (including inner) or altered state of consciousness. Suicide pacts are not legal agreements.
@@DebeneerI'd agree partially. A case can even be made that living is often more courageous than dying. But I believe here it was just done without malicious intent, it was just a rhetoric device
I think the audience that obsesses over “royalty” to begin with…they often don’t mind whether a monarch was an awful person. Especially when it’s a European monarch. If anything, I think that’s some of the draw.
There are shows like "The great" (Catherine of Russia), Victoria, the Woman King, and Elizabeth I's biopic that whitewash the ugliness of empiricism, colonialism, slavery, and wealth inequality (all of which real feminism is against) to create "girlbosses" for the audience to root for. Real feminism has nuance, and looks at identity through multiple lenses. These people were women in a position of power, but they didn't wield that power for good. But nuance doesn't always make for good entertainment or profit.
@@lordfreerealestate8302 People are Human by nature, it's just harder to look over the mistakes of people that are more well-known, the woman you mentioned accomplished great things, and that shouldn't be overlooked
@@lordfreerealestate8302I think wielding power for good can only be judged by those who benefited or didn't. I'm sure many of their people felt their monarchs were doing good for them especially if their evil elsewhere (colonialism/slavery etc) benefits their subjects at home
Why do I feel like this is a personal dump on mental illness? Yes, Sissi was a controversial character, not saying she was perfect or should get all the grace she does. But alone the statement, that her mother in law “chose” to be happy, as comparison to Sissi, who “chose” to stay in her misery, is very interesting. You can shit as much money as you want and have all the luxuries, but when you’re mentally sick, have things like borderline or depression, it’s not a matter of choosing. Having depression and suicidal ideation myself, I’d be jobless, homeless and dead by now, if I didn’t have my medication and professional help. Your mind doesn’t function normally. I didn’t get a friend a cake I promised and had a break down, sure that she would break off the friendship. Now I’m like, damn chill. But without the proper help you don’t have the option to step back and see things from different perspectives. Many in the comments also suggest, that it sounds like Borderline, which it’s the same thing, without help, you’re fucked and will fuck up others.
That's exactly what this video essay sounds like. I don't like the romanticization of this lady either, but even I rose my brows at some of the assertions made about her "putting her mind to it."
I have major depression. It is seriously difficult. Pregnant at 16 and a single mother as the father was 23. He was gone. Catholic parents and sent away for school and keeping my child. It was difficult and attached to my family, and never able to be really independent. 😕 was difficult.
I see her much more as a tragic figure than a bad one. Blaming her for being unhappy feels strange to me. She was clearly suffering from anorexia and as a past sufferer who had the benefit of years of therapy I can only relate with her. It is also known that anorexia stem in part from a lack of control in one own life and that it is a way to cope : controling your own body. Princess Diana was afflicted with it after her marriage. Both are young women (in fact Elizabeth wasn't even a women by today standard) who were married in a world that they weren't prepared for. I also would like to say, that Elizabeth being just a little bit a better Empress would have endear the people is only speculation. Marie-Antoinette, another very young bride, was hated by the French no matter what. Although I agree that Elizabeth has been glamorized way too much, focusing on her flaws isn't much better. I tend to pity her more than anything. I know you put some balanced in you video, but I believed she was mostly a fragile and traumatized girl who tried to cope as she could in a time that mental health issue were treated with cold baths.
The mention of Marie Antoinette in your comment. The way Sisi is treated makes Marie Antoinette's fate a lot more unfair when you think about it. since although she obviously had flaws, but at least she was far more pleasant to people who actually knew her, or lived close to her or had any sort of interaction with her, things we obviously can't say about Sisi. And she was a far better wife to her husband and mother to her children. Sisi's whining about court life (which all falls apart when you realize how much she actually enjoyed it and how much she took use of it and took it for granted) also makes me cringe, since France was an actual hell for Marie Antoinette
Did you watch the video or just post this before watching? She’s not evil, but she was incredibly selfish and abusive of everyone who loved her or depended on her. Building palaces while people starve is pretty close to bad or even evil though. This is the type of “understanding” or assessment an ugly and plain woman or man would never get. Eccentricities are only alluring, fascinating and/or “whimsical” seeming when the subject is beautiful, a genius or possesses some extraordinary talent. Had it been some nobody or a hideous royal displaying these same behaviors they’d just been labeled “weird” and “disconcerting.”
@@The_ZeroLine Men, both bad and good looking, have sent very young man to war on a whim and for absolutely nothing (think George W. Bush and Irak) and haven't been called evil. Ultra rich people still build palace or fly in spaceship (think Elon Musk) while people starve and are admired even today, so yes a lot is still excused today. And yes I have watch the video and I also read extensively on Elizabeth.
@@altinaykor364 , I fully agree with your assessment of Marie Antoinette. She did a few foolish things when she was very young. But eventually she became a good wife and mother. She was never emotionally cruel. Her biggest mistake was, that she believed she could get away with hiding herself away from court life and the often nasty reality in France.
Kinda seems unfair that her parents wanted to be away from the life that Sisi was forced to be in. Her mother wanted to have it both ways and made her daughter be as miserable as she was. Also I'm sure letters to her family were probably read by the servants, after all the video states that she never had any privacy. That's probably why there were contradictions to what was happening, her diary might have been the only place she could possibly express her situations, very sad.
Did you know she wrote a book about her life that she wanted published? It never happened, though. Someone "responsible" for her saw to that. Says it all, doesn't it?
Or she would try to go to her happy place which her mother -in law HATED, Hungary. When that was not possible travel around Europe. Better to disappear then not mess up? #wedonttalkaboutBruno
Elizabeth surely was not the best empress as history remembers. But this account of Elizabeth’s life was, in my opinion, quite biased and unnecessarily harsh. The title emphasized on her lack of responsibility as an empress, along with bold claims that she was a “terrible” person. But when we enter the video expecting an account of how mean and irresponsible Elizabeth is, instead of receiving info about her inaction to serve her role as Empress - a role that she never wanted since the beginning and eventually caused her murder - we are greeted by explanations of her character. The uploader says she is naïve, a fitting claim. But considering Elizabeth was 16 at the time she married, how is it even surprising? Historically people do mature faster on average since they die earlier in life, but that’s more on changes in societal roles, your physical and mental growth is not impacted. She has the same mental development of any 16-year-old in 2024. “ yet other 16 years old can handle it,” you might argue. But Elizabeth’s upbringing was never accounted to become an empress. Instead of her mother who groomed her sister to become a successful empress, it was her father who raised her to love the countryside and its freedoms. She was not brought up like many upper-class ladies of her times, not to mean that she’s better because of the difference in childhood. Yet the uploader fails to account for that. Their choice of words also quite literally says of their opinion: “young”, “naïve”, “ irresponsible”, “ selfish”, “ narcissistic” … none of these words are wrong, it is the fact that the uploader only portrayed one aspect of Elizabeth and is discreetly influencing our opinion using the choice of negative connoted words. Elizabeth was not the brightest of empresses, certainly not among the most outstanding queens and Empress in the long course of history. But she had done good for the astro Hungarian Empire. In the times of political instability within her empire, she helped to bring the Hungarian people closer to those with the privilege of living in the capital of Vienna. Thus possibly avoiding a rebellion and inner turmoil. Yet the video does not include this in the narrative either. I also find it quite unsettling how the uploader finds it fitting to portray Sophie as a “strong minded responsible and practical archduchess”. Both of them are real persons that existed and have their own flaws. Sophie had blamed Elizabeth for not being able to produce a child for the empire. While that was reasonable for a royal woman of her times, she took it as far as to writing threatening letters to her daughter-in-law. A historical account written in 2024 should view history from a modern lens using ideologies of humanitarianism. This account labels themselves as a “historian” in their self intro, while failing to give an accurate depiction of what really happened in multiple perspectives. She showed Elizabeth’s husband, mother-in-law, subjects, and children’s, even the uploader’s own personal opinion. Anyone but Elizabeth. This creator feels more like a video essayist than a historian, not that one is better than another. Honestly, this one hour could have been better spent reading an objective historical account (ie. Britannica) and forming one’s own opinion instead of moving straight onto reviewing someone else’s and having that forever imprinted in our perspectives.
This material, however, romanticizes Sophie and Franz. Even if objectively their behavior was more logical, your narrative shows that Elizabeth is a victim of manipulation and gaslighting, for example when it comes to the care of her children.
There wasn’t something about Elizabeth’s artlessness that captured the young emperor’s eye…let me introduce you to men: she was very pretty and her elder daughter was, let’s just say, very masculine in appearance. Even the best of us are the opposite of immune to beauty. It’s too bad because, with his work ethic and sense of duty, had he been paired with the well groomed sister great things could have been achieved.
@@juttapopp1869 But the fact remains that she wasn't considered beautiful. When I look at her photos, I don't find her unattractive, but some contemporary accounts describe her as downright ugly.
I almost laughed when I saw her, she would have been a perfect empress, she looked like a personification of Germany. Sisi was very pretty, but did not really have anything to recommend her beyond that, modern popular historians might like her liberalism, but it did not make her a fit for the actual responsibilities she had, responsibilities to actual people rather than abstract notions.
I found this presentation interesting but full of unprovable statements given as facts such as 'if only the Empress did this, then all of Austria would have adored her.' Statements of this nature can never be true as they are predicated upon a set of circumstances that can never exist. They are wishful thinking perhaps but the great number and repetitive use tends to make one suspect the presenter is actively trying to present an unflattering view of her subject by deliberately including unprovable statements. And if the past is any indicator of the future, as it often is, such statements demand the opposite to occur for those Austrian nobles who clearly despised Sisi would be required to do an about-face en masse - a highly unlikely occurrence. When the subject of the Achilleion Palace on Corfu was brought up, the distortions presented herein were sufficient to make me question the veracity of every other statement made. That being the case, I choose to spend my time watching shows that educate with fact not distort with errors and where the is one misstatement of fact, there are bound to be more and I do not care to waste my time on a program in which every statement needs to be verified before it can be accepted. The history of the palace is well known and readily accessible and let's just say it certainly is not the history given here.
It's very obvious that Sisi had bipolar disorder. The long depression. Exasperated by an eating disorder and postpartum depression. She never got the help she needed and at the time not much was known about mental illness.
The Wittelsbachs were known for their “melancholic” tendencies, as they were called at the time, so there certainly seems to have been a genetic component to what was plaguing her.
I appreciate the information and the historical facts. However, I do think there is a quite judgmental stance towards the Empress as a human. Don't forget she got pregnant three times before the age of 20, which is a lot for any woman. On top of that, she was surrounded from the beginning of her life by troubled female figures who didn't support her. She didn't have a chance to develop into anything other than a self-centered, wounded figure. She was a product of her environment.
Sisi was forced to be an underage bride, and never wanted to be express. It's no surprise she was traumatized and depressed. She was disempowered by her MIL. Sophie might not have meant to bully or abuse her, but she did. This video is ignoring the many abuses Sisi suffered from her MIL and her own husband not standing up for her, or how they would've affected someone psychologically.
Nearly every woman in that time was..only that low born women really had a hard life whereas Sisi had all the money she needed and did all what she wanted without a care in the world.
@@stresslessmeditation8039 Some women simply weren't made to tolerate the abuse. It's unfortunate that she became the perpetrator, but to blame her solely and not the ones who made her that way is unrealistic.
It really gripes me when women refused to play the game and were treated like bad people. She didn't do anything that wasn't done to her, and yet everyone treats her like she's the bad guy.
You're right that romanticing Sissi is wrong, but let me come back to one of the things you mentioned. I'm Hungarian and you seem to imply that the 1867 reconciliation between Austria and Hungary happened because Sissi wanted it and she put pressure on her husband. While it is true that she was involved, particularly in some of the details, it was not her idea and wives of emperors don't make decisions like that for their country. As you mentioned, in 1866, there was a quick war between Prussia and Austria, which ended in a Prussian victory. At the time, it was well predicted that Germany was on her way to be united, the questions was : is Germany going to be ruled by he Prussians or the Southern states, led by Austria? Bismarck's aim with the war was to show Austria how much stronger Prussia is militarily, and to make it clear that Austria will not be involved in the unification at all. Therefore, Austria had to be strong and united on its own, and turned the eyes to the East. Austria was weakened because Hungarians were constantly igniting revolutions, freedom fights, idepenedence wars against her, like in 1948-49. They had to stabliiize the relationship if Austria wanted to remain an influential empire. The reconciliation was a compromise that meant Hungarians accept the emperor as their king (crowned as such in a separate ceremony) , and in return, they can have their own government, parliament, elections and many more. Apart from united foreign, defence and financial affairs, Hungary was independent, and the "dual monarchy", called Austria-Hungary was created. It is true that other nationalities and areas eg Bohemia did not gain the same position. It's also true that Sissi was very fond of Hungarians, actually quite passionately, and she urged her husband to give Hungary almost equal status to Austria. It is true that she promised her husband to have another baby if Hungary is treated to a good compromise (and she kept her word, that's why she had Maria Valeria, who was born in Hungary and she lived with Sissi in Hungary, Sissi spoke Hungarian to her and all the ladies in waiting around them were Hungarians.) But the reasons for the compromise were political. It's difficult to know why she loved Hungarians so much: one theory is that the Austrian court was incredibly formal, even compared to the British etc at the time, and she felt suffocated. But Hungarians were more informal, and we still are, and all the mannerisms and etiquette was not done and not required. She felt more free and relaxed in the company of Hungarians, and in return, Hungarians loved her back, and showed it. It wasn't' that unusual: Queen Victoria was particularly fond of Scotland, and Scots, enjoyed the simpler, more down to earth life there. Hungarians nowadays don't romanticise Sissi, and don't really ... know much about her really. It was probably "not encouraged" after WW1, and even less so after WW2.
She just loved Hungarians because everyone else hated them. A magyarok az egesz tortenelem soran felfuvalkodottak es gogosek voltak, igy ez nem igazan meglepo
Why is it wrong? Why do you believe that romanticizing illness is a problem to begin with? Because romanticizing illness takes the stigma away from it. For most of human history any type of illness has had a stigma especially mental illnesses. So for you to stand there and say it's wrong when it's changing people's minds and making things easier for those who suffer from those diseases. Why exactly is that a bad thing? Why aren't people and artists allowed to romanticize their own diseases or why is it wrong for people without the illness to see beauty in it? Who are you to say they can't? Beauty can be found in anything including illnesses. And if romanticizing their illness makes them feel better and makes it easier to live with the illness by changing people's perceptions than who are you to say that's wrong? I do not understand your perspective as if romanticizing is a bad thing. When I see no downside to it. She is not alive it does not affect her either way.
"It was probably "not encouraged" after WW1, and even less so after WW2." I don't know why it wouldn't be encouraged after WW1, considering how much Miklos Horthy was a supporter of the Habsburgs. It definitely would've been suppressed after WW2, though.
It is truly astounding that the Sisi myth has endured to this day, notwithstanding ample evidence that Empress Elisabeth was , in fact, a distant, self-centered, non-maternal woman. Even recent films, save for Corsage, have paid homage to the myth that would also have the world believing she was passionately in love with Franz Joseph who was often insensitive to her needs. I for one believe that even with the idealized and romanticized versions stripped away, we are still left with a historical figure worthy of study, attention and, perhaps, even admiration precisely because she refused to bow to the conventions that were foisted upon her at such a young age and merely because Franz Joseph would have no other.
@@josepholeary3286It's also important to remember that she was no stranger to tragedy -losing two of her children -first Sophie and then Rudolph who died under gruesome circumstances. The final tragedy of course was her own untimely demise at the hands of an assassin.
i wanted to like this video but i find it very strange how you seem to blame elisabeth, who was married off against her will at fifteen years old and almost immediately became the child mother of multiple children, for not “leaning in” to her role of empress. uh, she was deeply traumatized! also, your admiration for more powerful imperial figures such as sophie and franz joseph seems like its own kind of royalist romanticization… just saying!
I think the questions of whether she should be admired and whether she should be considered a sympathetic figure are separate questions and yield different answers.
I agree. While critically analysing Sissi herself is a good idea, this analysis in particular seems a bit biased towards the empress mother and the emperor (like you said, romanticizing them) while not giving enough weight to Sissi's condition as a child mother and appreciation for her positive qualities. This analysis needed to be more neutral.
@@raudigerrudiger9713 No, but it also doesn't invalidate that OP sounds patronizing AF because her analysis boils down to Sisi bad because Not motherly enough, not Empress enough and not Feminist icon enough. And yet she kinda fangirls a bit over Sophie who is literally an evil Disney step mother lmao. Also, 19th century being a famously renowned feminist era where women totally had control of their destinies so we can totally judge them based on the modern moral standards. And what's fascinating to me is that despite this trying to be a feminist analysis, the amount of internalized misogyny on the part of OP is kind of astonishing.
@@turntapeover5749I didn’t see it that way at all. It seemed to more like a criticism of shirking responsibility while others are counting on you to step up. Or how nasty she was to her children/grandchildren, how she called them ugly and mocked them. Her kids weren’t responsible for how her life turned out, but she seemed to resent them and only interacted with them to get things she wanted. I’m not a mother, but even I acknowledge those kids deserved better. When your lifestyle is supported by your marriage (your clothes, assets, etc.), then you also take on family responsibilities. It becomes your job. At the time it was common for women’s job to consist of domestic duties, and for royal women to take on the tasks of the position. She wanted all the love, power, and money without any of the responsibility that came with it. It comes down to personal beliefs, but shirking your responsibilities is unacceptable to me, other people were counting on her.
Wow, this was a stunningly sexist and judgemental portrayal of this woman. She was by no means perfect, but „using her period as an excuse” to get out of some appointments? Have you heard of endometriosis, or just the regular menstrual pain that most women experience? I hope you were spared that kind of experience, and I think you were, as hatred emanated through most phrases in this - admittedly thorough - analysis. To me, Sissi seems to have been suffering from severe mental health challenges. Melancholy, which you mention so often, is the word they used in those times for Major Depressive Disorder, and as someone else in the comments was saying, she matches a lot of key traits for Borderline Personality Disorder. That's one where people are typically in so much pain on a daily basis that they would rather hurt themselves - or attempt to end themselves - in order to escape it for a second. Her failure to „fulfill her duties as emperess” pales in comparisson, especially when groomed and abused by narcissists and a sadistic mother-in-law for most of her life.
she was just anouther insest riden link in the god auful chain of the austrian monarchy. screw the wittlesbatches, screw house von hapsburg, boo fraking who she had red watter isues and a nero divergent brain. she was a incompetent hand to a moronic family leding a superpower of the time.
I'm sure the narrator has no ideea what it means to be a woman. Good luck on her part for having you here to educate her about womanly problems! You are a true godsend!
@@Iulian111 Ah, yes, a gentleman downplaying women's challenges. You are her true target audience, I see. Both a remnant of a skewed status quo struggling to survive. Enjoy! Your life will just keep getting worse from here on out.
Imagine being "gently forced" into a marriage at the age of 15. Most people nowadays consider 23 too young to marry. Then take into consideration the differences in both Elizabeth's and Franz Josef's upbringing. It's a no brainer that she'd be unhappy. She pretty much tried to escape this life until she died, but back in the time Psychology was just developing and it certainly didn't develop into anything useful to her before she died. Is it really necessary to tear down what positive notion anyone today has of this person? Romanticism was what kept her going, if you know anything about her. It's easy to take that apart from a high horse perspective today.
It rubs me the wrong way the way that her mother-in-law's decision to "just be happy" is held up in contrast in order to make Elizabeth look even worse. It's wonderful that she was able to do that, but implying that happiness and good mental health is as simple as that is pretty insensitive, imo. Elizabeth was clearly a flawed person, but I doubt I would have been a great mother at 17, even barring any postpartum depression and other issues.
@@erinharkiewicz7239, I mean, am I to write down names and addresses for you? A lot of people thinks so and for a lot of people it proves true, while others make different experiences. Still, it can at least be considered.
15 were considered back then a very appropriate age for marriage. We forget that the life expectancy back then was way lower than now ( people died often in their 40s) while baby mortality was extremely high and so people had to get married as young as they could in order to increase their chances to have children. And that kept on up until the 1950s. My grandmother f.e who was born back in 1906, got married at the age of 14 my grandfather who was back then just 18. No one forced them to get married. They married out of love and it was considered a very normal and appropriate marriage. There were no objections from their parents. Now my grandmother had 8 pregnancies but only 5 children that survived up to their adulthood. Considering that Sisi who preceded my grandma for almost 80 years wasn't that young for marriage. It was at the right age for that era's standards let alone for women of her class. The fact that she survived up to her 60s was the exception, probably because she had a very high life quality as an Empress. But this wasn't the case for the other contemporary to her women. It is wrong to judge historical persons' actions and life styles out of the context of the era that they lived.
Sophie wasn’t in a severe depression, she was in a bad circumstance. There is a difference between being clinically depressed and finding one’s self in a terrible situation. For most people, happiness is a choice. And even if one is depressed, there is a way out of that if one makes the choices needed to treat the depression.
There is much we choose in our lives. I am a pessimist by nature, but I decided that I had two choices. I could be a gloomy pessimist, or I could be a happy pessimist. I choose to be happy, because gloom is unhelpful and counterproductive. I can make plans to counteract the worst-case scenarios that I foresee, or at least I can bear them with a smile, having prepared for them mentally. The fact that the lady took one long look at her unfortunate situation with such a mismatched marriage and found both love and happiness is to her credit and wisdom. She faced a nearly identical choice to the young empress, but she chose better and was the better in all ways.
It actually can be. People can go through very extreme circumstances and be happy because they don't lose hope or purpose. A lot of the therapy you receive for depression is really about changing your mindset and finding meaning.
I don’t think that Sophie’s work to cultivate her own happiness after being thrown into circumstances beyond her control implies that Elizabeth could have done the same. It’s necessary to contextualize Sophie in this way to so we as the audience understand that she was a force of nature. It also makes for an interesting juxtaposition for Elizabeth
I do feel for Sissi in having her children taken from her so soon after they were born. You come across a bit harsh and judgmental. I’m a mother myself so i can put myself in her shoes and I can easily imagine her suffering from postpartum depression due to not only her body sensing her baby is missing but also due to how mentally draining it would be to have someone controlling every aspect of your life, I can very much so see the Empress just not having the will to fight. Plus with how the all the children reacted, it’s clear that Sophie was the one hey saw as their primary caregiver and found way more comfort in her than Sissi, something Sophie guaranteed would be the case with how she made sure to raise the children. So Sissi wasn’t even seen as the mother figure to her children, how would you feel if your mother-in-law stole your rights as a mother away from you over and over again. You are clearly not a mother and know nothing of how devastating of an effect that has on a mother. You paint her out to be a poor mother when she was never allowed to truly be one to begin with. She definitely deserves way more grace as a mother.
And the only time she was given the chance to take care of her daughter, the girl died under her care because of sickness. She was 18 and suffered a breakdown and lost the chances to take care of the rest of her children after that. The lost of her oldest daughter gave a long lasting impact towards this family and Sisi's motherhood.
She was just a child, and Sophie, her mother-in-law knew that as well, hence why she didn't even want Franz to marry her, but she couldn't overrule the decision of the emperor. She would have been a terrible mother at 16 (and wasn't a whole lot better later either).
As much as I agree she was not perfect, I would refrain from calling her "narcissistic" or "selfish" with such a little information. She showed signs of mental illness since the young age and some people might agree that she posessed characteristics of someone with a borderline personality disorder, but it can only be speculated. She was very much controlled by her emotions that were unstable and she seemed to have had a quick temper, abandonment issues and bitterness towards people believed did her wrong. She was forced to take a role that she just couldn´t emotionally deal with, so I wouldn´t put blame on her for the way she viewed her children. She probably saw them as a reminder of her life in the "golden cage". I think she is a great example of a woman who was not particularly mentally stable but still put into one of the most powerful postion there was at the time. I don´t think she had any idea about what her life was going to be like when she married Franz. Her depression and misery might seem ungrateful, but one can´t help how they feel with no amount of reason. Like her father, she just felt trapped.
Sisi may not have been narcissistic but she is certainly mean. She addressed Gisela as "A being of a rare ugliness, but very lively, like Gisela" in a writing intended for Gisela’s own beloved brother. Not to mention her blatant fat-shaming of the Duchess of Teck 50:13 I'm of the strong opinion that Sisi is misogynistic with regards to women's appearances and weight. Also, narcissism is excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance so Sisi is indeed a narcissist. www.google.com/search?q=narcissism+meaning&client=opera-gx&hs=KHG&sca_esv=9781a9b17bdb0a90&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWILgrq-OYRt27RwvzCubLyUOiaXDDw%3A1717834067859&ei=UxFkZriNNLvH1e8P9quU-Ac&oq=narcissism&gs_lp=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&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
I agree. It sounds as if she suffered from severe, untreated depression. I can only speculate. I wonder if perhaps she had been given appropriate medical treatment, might her relationships been healthier as well?
Oh no, how dare this traumatized teenage bride not just "choose to be happy". How dare she be depressed but still try to find escape from her circumstances by going into nature or horseback riding. She should have just sucked it up and lived gratefully the exact way this royal family demanded - a broodmare the emperor bought because she was young and pretty. Now her coping, spending, running away, obsessing over looks, treating others poorly was naturally a menace to deal with, but she clearly was not meant for that life. She didn't know what being an empress would mean and saying no to an emperor's proposal was not possible. They ruined her life and blamed her for not being able to adjust to the abuse. Young women in history always get blamed for how they react to the horrible situations they are put into. I imagine the institution of monarchy is generally abusive to all who are forced participate.
Well said! Not a single one of us can dream of really knowing how it all felt to Elisabeth. We have an idea, a glimpse. Stories that were being told through the filter of the time by her peers and what she left herself in letters, diaries etc. Still, nobody can really know what it was to walk in her shoes with no hope of ever really restoring her life to what she wanted it to be. It is so heartbreaking to read her own words, when she was 16 and realized the whole marriage was a mistake, just a couple of days after it had happened. At 16. No backsies!
Dont get me wrong I totally agree we shouldn't blame it completely on her but victims can still become perpetrators. Also I think that people who say you can "choose to be happy" have clearly never dealt with depression... she needed help and she never should have been allowed to marry when she was clearly unprepared for the role. She was indeed a victim but even if she was unable to adapt and giving this new life a shot that doesn't make it ok for her to make everyone else suffer. You can be a victim and still be wrong in how you treat others....Honestly she needed a good therapist because it was clear from day 1 that she did not have the mental fortitude to handle all that without blowing up. She got stuck inside her head and gave up on happiness... my therapist would have a field day with her 😅
@@claudiafernandes1150, I mean you are completely right. It's just that we know so much more today. From an early age on, results from psychological studies have an effect on us, e. g. how teachers treat kids, even a much broader range of parents have learned stuff by just reading magazines, books, getting counsel and so on. (Not saying that everyone is an expert, but things have changed a lot by implemented psychological knowledge). She didn't have any of that. Most of her problems didn't even have a name, yet, except for "havin hysteric fits". And she didn't have practical solutions either. There were no therapists, no internet, no books, nothing. Again, you're right that she can be held responsible for her actions, but we can't look at her and judge her from our modern point of view. She was the only person she could rely on to understand she even was in a difficult position. That does something with a person. I'm glad I'm not in her shoes. ;p
@@Laleolie oh I completely agree with that statement I would not want to be in her shoes I would probably not handle it well 😅. She is a very interesting historical figure, I just don't like how some people reduce her to a victim. She was complex, even in her flaws she is sympathetic tho because she was also a product of her environment, that just like you said did not have the tools (and maybe neither the will) to help her. She was no martyr, no monster, no saint, she was Empress Sisi of Austria
My grandmother lost a young child to cancer and after that loss, whatever trauma it caused, she began neglecting her other children including my father. She also married young without a chance to grow up and mature. Sisi‘s background reminded me a lot of my grandmother, and I think both ladies were victims themselves and it‘s hard for me to call people who struggle with mental illness solely TERRIBLE. A person who never learned love cannot love, who never was cared for cannot care. Simple as that. And it‘s not like she only neglected her children, she was neglecting herself too. We don‘t have to look up to historic figures or romanticize them but why direct so much hate on Sisi like she is the worst person to exist?
Definitely a case of Pretty Privilege where she would get no romanticization if she had been plain or ugly... However, I am sympathetic to the fact that she seems to have been born into a life that she was not mentally suited for at all. Arm chair psychology tells me that a lot of her issues may have come from crippling anxiety and depression. The obsession with her looks for example - it was arguably the one thing she had complete control over, therefore she was extremely vain. But that is pure conjecture of course. *Edit* Whatever her mental issues, still didn't give her the pass to treat the people around her like garbage.
5 місяців тому+19
Anxiety and depression don't come out of nowhere. I think a lot of her personality comes down to the way she was (not) raised. Nobody seemed to give her the proper support, care and education. While she was a child that might be alright but as she grew up, she had no tools to deal with life.
FINALLY ! she was a sociopath like all the royal families members, 1,74m of height, always 50 kilos and with the corsette she wore, her waist was 45 cm.....she was obsessed with her weight and youth, she did not want to get old and was using raw meat on her face as beauty treatments, she was walking with her ladies in waiting at least 10 km at high speed and she did this everyday, she did not like to have s...x with Joseph despite he was a very goodlooking man, the reason she gave was he was too much for her and used to introduce him noble women who might help to keep him "calm"....and so on and so forth. 😅
That doesn't give her the right to be a shit empress. She had much time to learn and everything was put at her disposal but she was too self-centred to care.
That doesn't give her the right to be a shit empress. She had much time to learn and everything was put at her disposal but she was too self-centred to care.
@@SirGeorgeofWorcestershire ...well, yeah, no one has the right to be an asshole, I think that goes without saying... Regardless of that, it's clear no one tried to help her have etiquette, (even then, some of us struggle with stuff like this even KNOWING what people want from us). Something I didn't say in the original comment is that she's OBVIOUSLY mentally ill. Things for her weren't as simple as "be nicer to people", "be less anti-social". There's so many worse people in history that get defended for much less, but yeah, let's villainfy a mentally ill girl instead. Since you don't understand what goes without saying, I'll repeat, having a reason to be a certain way, doesn't mean there's no consequences for your actions.
I agree with most of your argument, however personally, I think comparing Empress Sisi to Elizabeth of Bowes-Lyon is a bit unfair. The Queen Mother was from an entirely different era than Sisi, almost half a century after Sisi died. You cannot compare public service then to public service 40 years later. Yes, her opinion on public service was abysmal, but the comparison in itself is still somewhat unrealistic. I am not a historian, so this is just my opinion, but thank you so much for this take!
I have little sympathy for any monarch and think we shouldn't romanticize anyone who holds that much power over a large number of people. The idea, then, of a "good empress" is counter-intuitive. And though this video brings up some great points, there were several parts where I felt an obvious explanation wasn't drawn. How was she to be a good mother when she wasn't allowed to go through the trial and error of it in the first place? Additionally, "isn't it convenient how mental illness prevented her from doing things she didn't like but not the things she did" is...lowkey how some mental illnesses work. So, it was odd to see it brought up as a counter-argument. And when the things she DID like doing was "taking care of her beauty" (i. e. starving herself) I feel like it's not fair to bring those up as luxury either. It's also odd that she was blamed for her vanity, considering her environment perpetuated the need to be beautiful all the time. One can't exactly control whether they have an eating disorder or not. And when getting into hypotheticals - "What would've happened if she just applied herself?" "what would've happened if she was a better mother?" .... what would've happened if a 23 year old Franz had chose the 18 year old Helene who was prepared to be an empress instead of marrying a 15 year old because of "infatuation" (which you have to admit is very creepy, regardless of it being considered normal at the time). All that being said - she did have a number of flaws. Most of which is that she did not realize the extent of her power and how she could use it for good. Or if she did, she didn't care. (Though I'm sceptical of how much "good" is even possible for regular people under a monarchy.) And truly was incredibly spoiled and inconsiderate. EDIT: Also Franz and Elizabeth watching AMND and Franz thinking it's dumb while she loved it REEKS of when older guys go for younger girls and then make fun of their interests being too childish in modern day.
I havent finished the video yet and its very informative, but some comments made by the narrator come across as quite odd, like the comment on how sophie chose to be happy and sisi didnt, i think most can agree sisi was mentally ill and saying stuff that like is very weird. I think romanticizing someone who was mentally ill and quite unhappy is harmful but at times demonizing them for those issues is harmful too, damn the sheltered, introverted 16 year old bride who didnt want this life is not happy? Just choose happiness silly! Become an amazing empress and mother silly
However, there are quite a bit of flaws with this video. No, we should not romanticize Sisi as she was not a good empress, but we should not romanticize any of the other royals, either. “She took her life in her own hands [in reference to the mother-in-law Duchess Sophie] many women were not able to do that (even the well-off ones) for a reason. Sisi did not want this life, and was too young and unprepared- and she took that out on others, and of course that would bleed into her motherhood. Regardless, it still remains true that she was not a good empress or a person. However, *all* of them were colonizers and made choices that ensured the security of their own power- all at the expense of the everyday people they were responsible for. To ignore that, especially the ones that actually did have control over their lives & choices (men), while criticizing a teenage girl forced into marriage but calling her husband “hard working” leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth.
19:30, I'm sorry, but she was a teenager. You can't hold her to the same standards as adults. Having to ask permission to see one's children is incredibly cruel, she could have felt helpless, and having been torn down by the archduchess, it is unsurprising that is the rode she took. Also, we shouldn't take her letter at face value. We don't know the pressure she was in. Again, she was just a teenager. Countless teen moms are pressured into giving away their children and end up regretting it. Your statement that sisi could have chosen to be happy like her MIL, is honestly a terrible take. We have no idea what sort of situation (mentally) she was in, especially since, as you mentioned in the beginning of your video, she was known for melancholy long before she was forced into the life of a court. Moreover, she lived in a time that was incredibly unkind to women, it is not farfetched to believe that that alone could have made her feel hopeless. Yes, she could have done the best of a bad situation, but have you considered she didn't want to? That the best in the situation was simply not something that could have ever made her happy? I have no love for sisi, she is, after all, another monarch that fed into an incredibly oppressive system. But this entire video comes off as victim blaming, and with rather shallows takes. Interestingly enough, you do consider the reality in which she was raised and yet you do not take the care to see her through that lens. I have many more thoughts, but this comment is long enough.
A small nitpick in the beginning: Sisi's father was not "Duke of Bavaria" but "Duke in Bavaria". The former title, after 1825 belonged to the Bavarian king, the latter to the members of the junior line of the ruling house. Ludovika, Sisi's mother, however was "of Bavaria".
the video is really good but i think you demonize her too much compared to others and minimize the absolute horror it must have been for her to be married that young and in that situation, ofc it doesn't excuse her actions but you should put more nuance. + to say that queen elizabeth fulfilled her role while she covered up for her pedophile son is way off. ++ please stop valuing women's beauty as a moral accomplishment, it's not +++ refusing to sleep with someone is not blackmail ++++ the rethoric that you can choose to be happy it's pretty flawed since she probably had bad mental health issues, again not excusing, just saying that it's more complicated than that
excuses, while trying to demonize others +wonder which one of the parents neglected the son, making him develop madness in the first place ++Beauty as moral accomplishment is what Sisi believed, not what this video is trying to make anyone believe +++refusing to sleep with someone, exactly when you want something from them, is blackmail. it wasn't like she wanted to leave him. she wanted to force him to dance to whatever tone she sang ++++so many women went through such a trauma you're excusing as mental illness, or marriage against will, or even worse, unhappy marriage and uncaring spouse, with far worse family members(or better) at the end of the day, Sisi was no special in this trope of life. and yet other women didn't turn out this much unbearable like her
@@altinaykor364 1 I don't give a shit who made the fucking prince of England a pedophile, still you should never cover for one and the crown as an institution sucks 3 no, denying sex is never ever blackmail, it's literally having bodily autonomy 4 yeah I agree, many women born in the same circumstances were not as awful, so wouldn't it have been a more nuanced video if we could explore her psychology and reactions without having to put a moral condemnation every 2 minutes? maybe with a little bit of empathy and comprehension without justifying? why is it always women people are harsher on... oh yeah right....
Had any of us been put in the same circumstances, with the same family culture and same kind of mental illness - who is to say we wouldn't have ended up just like her?
We can't say for sure but I know I wouldn't have called my own daughter a skinny pig with little piglets after she had given birth to my grandchildren or called a grandchild of mine ugly like my daughter was when she was little. Some of the things she said and done were vicious and can't solely be contributed to an unfortunate environment.
@@ceton1843 I never said anything that she did was in any way justifiable - some of her behaviour was vile. I'm more just speculating, were we in the same situations as her, and formed in the same way by the same relationship breakdowns... its the unanswerable question
She was a free spirit, then crowned, then disillusioned and felt caged, then bullied by her peers, then became a mom but usurped by mother in law, and finally then lost a kid in during an effort to gain control. Seems like she was deriving self worth from being in control, which hurt everyone associated with her. If you wanted her love, she felt powerful by withholding it. If you didn’t want her love, she became obsessed with possessing you.
She could have been a better person, i just discovered here through this Video. But we have all experience some rough part of life but turned out not to squeeze the lemon in peoples eyes!
While I've learned much more about this woman than before, I can't say I can understand much about a life that is so different from my own. I have one comment though. Physically and emotionally there is a time directly after the birth of a child during which it is much easier for a mother to bond with her new born. If she was separated from her older children very early it may have made her bonding with them much more difficult. Being quite young and with all the other stresses she was exposed to this may have added to her difficulty in bonding with her children. Not excusing anything, just saying it may have made a difficult situation that much worse during a time when people may not have realized the importance of this time between mother and babe.
True! Not all of the women have this mythical motherly Instinct. For example, I don't think babies are beautiful - quite the opposite. Rarely a baby is beautiful - but that's not the point. I suppose something might kick in if I give birth and start taking care of the baby out of pity and feeling of responsability. And after so much time and effort - how can I not love it? I only suppose, as I didn't test this theory. In Sissi's case, if the theory is true, she didn't have the opportunity to care for her children forced onto her or even just freely given to her - but if she wanted to, she could have connected with them. From this video it appears she had some passing interest in her children - but her loathing of her mother in law was much, much bigger. So she decided not to fight for them, and associated them with her moments of humiliation or something. Quite unfair since they were children, who could not make any decision at that age. Overall, the sin of vanity was the core trait of her. Really pitiful. I never liked Sissi overall - from what I read or heard, although trying to victimize her and call upon one's pity, it was weird that she was able to travel so much, live in castles throughout Europe, but, somehow, her mother in law and husband were so overbearing. Truth is somewhere in the middle. For sure Sissi was not a mentally healthy human being - but she probably suspected it, which sparked interest in this subject. Who knows - maybe without her we wouldn't be as knowleadgeable about MH nowadays?
@19:07 to be fair, if you are young and taught to always lie about how you really feel, you would write lies to please your family. So the “ I am happy and get to see my child all the time” lie is understandable
This is not enteirley accurate. She tried her best to sace their children from the harsh treatment that their grandma gave them. For example they traumatised Rudolf so much he almost went insane.
The picture of Sissi’s unpleasantness and all of her fine qualities and abilities gone to waste because of her decision to indulge herself and her feelings so thoroughly is deeply tragic. Yet I would add a subtle caution regarding the argument that she should have been more like Sophie. I had the impression that Ivodora might find Sophie to be naturally easier to understand, perhaps even more like herself, and may not have quite caught the implication of how she sketched the very different characters of the two women. It is fair to say that Sissi should have been more like Sophie in principle, and followed her more optimistic and less self-indulgent attitude, and it is fair to say that she ought to have made a bid for success in the real world; however, before one says that she should have been like her in any particulars one must acknowledge what the difference in their character means, especially in sensitivity: that some things which for one person are a tolerable misfortune may be an unrecoverable disaster for another, and actions that are easily doable for one person are made difficult if not impossible by the predispositions of another. It does appear that Sissi also had very little self-insight, which may have made it nearly impossible for her and her maladaptive behaviors to go anywhere productive - at least not without outside interference of the sort an Empress was unlikely to experience. Especially when married to an Emperor who seemed not to understand her at all, and whom she did not seem to respect as a person.
Please remember that opium was a completely normal painkiller back then. We know everything that drugs can do to people. and despite difficult circumstances and expectations, she managed to bring about peace with Hungary. This achievement must be recognized. “Sissi” is absolutely not the only glorified personality. Just think of Mahatma Ghandi, who preferred to share his bed with little naked girls and treated his family extremely shabbily. But today's stars are also completely idolized, but in contrast, they have achieved nothing at all and certainly have not brought any peace.
Sounds like Elisabeth was accidentally abused, had to face chalenges and misfortune when she was at her weakest (young, surrounded by people who were critical of her, personality which made her vulnerable, etc.), and became depressed.
That is wat happened, but this presentation is unbalanced and was made to deny her challenges. Her mother in law was simply cruel. I often think about her when Meghan Markle whines about her treatment. What would she say if Archie was taken away from her immediately after he was born, or if five courtiers would have surrounded her bed during birth?
Ok, here’s the thing. Key question of this is: “Should be Elizabeth someone we look up to?” And that’s also key misunderstanding of her legacy and relationship between public and her (legend). Nobody really looking up to her. People empathise with her. And that’s the difference. Mystery remains why the author of this mockumentary having her nickers twisted over Sissi’s popularity. That’s the question she should ask herself. Legend of empress Elizabeth helping Austrian tourism, motivates people to learn about history and even helping small businesses and the economy. I really don’t understand where’s the problem??
Hate to be that person but I smell envy here (from the video creator obviously, not you). Sisi has more influence after death than this video creator can have in her entire life.
Elizabeth is now of considerable financial benefit to Austria, with her image appearing on any souvenir item likely to appeal to tourists. Sadly, that appears to be the extent of her legacy.
I think people who over romanticize Sisi often ignores the context of her historical backdrop. Because she was beautiful and tragic, it's all that matters, and she became their preferred protagonist. Everything inconvenience forgiven in her favor. Thus they form this kind of strange parasocial relationships with her. Surface level beauty, extreme pageantry, and the little of our privies to her unhappiness- as if each of us were a shareholder of her celebrity like a Princess Diana of the past. (wow she's literally me + wow she's a fairy tale princess + wow she's princess Diana) SLAY KWEEN SLAY. Oh yeah, most of them also just loved that she was loaded with money that does no have to pay off her own pocket. She's a "rebel" that just loved wasting the money she didn't earn, from an establishment she so hated but nonetheless whose money funds her narcissistic lifestyle, gleamed from tax paying subjects whose empire and standing she does not bother to better in substantial ways, all the while the treasury has to fund her capricious indulgences and eccentricities. But those who often attach themselves to her romance- as if they were drunks almost miss the point that beyond being initially unprepared, powerless, and felt trapped in a rigid Vienna, at a mid point she WAS powerful enough to make changes as a mother, and shepherdess of her nation and able to exert power with her children and with the court, and the empire, but almost always she chose personal indulgences over her responsibilities to her children and state.
What's more her framing as the sole feminist in this age while turning the blinders on to those around her is extremely strange, it's curious she was literally surrounded by very strong females, mother- in- law Sophie was literally a -> Strong Woman who made the court her own (someone feminists who often defend Wu Zetian, Theodora, Nzinga, Catherine de Medici, or better yet Austria's own Maria Theresa etc would have in other instances instantly gravitated to, some one by her sheer literal girlbossing made the rigid court her own and held a lot of de facto sway over it) but she's always thrown under the bus and have the Sisi side being the preferred modern liberal side when this era is covered. Why is that? 1 is a woman who faced these same seemingly insurmountable odds and by her ability, doggedness and through dedicated learning, maneuvering, mastery of the game made herself a victor and not a victim, but she is discarded without a thought in the telling of the daughter- in- law. Strange how Sophie was literally a GirlBoss incarnate but those who make Sisi into a feminist icon will make her evil and controlling (I guess strong women don't exert power? Oh wait no they do, they often do, that's what power is) while all sympathy went with the naive outcast self absorbed victim who never stopped being a naive outcast self absorbed victim even when she had power and after she had power (I'm not talking political but influences in the empire outside German Austrian heartlands and had full ascendency of her children.) What's more her possessiveness toward her ladies-in-waiting at their expense is down right hypocritical. Borderline personality does not make her less of a hypocrite to first make herself a martyr because of her yearning for freedom only to have her being vengeful to them if those under her should dare to pursue their own happiness. If anything this makes her more similar to the controlling Sophie caricature. FYI, this is how she treats other women WHEN she did have power. Sorry for the long rant. Personally speaking I do have my own personal sympathies with her, she obviously had her demons and her free halcyon unpretentious days in Bavaria was stifled by the rigidity of Vienna and overbearing influences of her mother in law. What's more it was indeed tragic a mother should never bear through Mayerling and be ended by a monster's blade. I don't hate her, but I do cringe at those who romanticize her so much that they make another reality entirely. Have her be complicated, don't shy away from it.
Sure, but why are we mad at her for not being a good "shepherdess of her people" when we are at a point in history when we have realised and decided monarchy just sucks and got rid of it.
@@Dragons_Armory Yep maria theresia who also gets schools named afte rher, because she did do the first school reform really, not to mention the other crap in diplomacy she had to deal with as woman and still was progressive and did stuff.
@@marocat4749 MT was extremely remarkable in her own right, in that there's now way that spelled out someone like her would have shepherded the empire from the brink of being ripped apart from inside and out to have her stabilize everything and the empire's position secured. Her father lefted her a bankrupt empire with an outmodlled army with rebellious vassals and all the major powers pretty much betrayed the empire at her father's death. And despite having no serious education and was constantly pregnant and birthing children she appointed astute ministers, brought the Hungarians into the fold as loyal stewards, radically reformed the army to be comparable to the continental powers, and despite taking repeated blows from Frederick never allowed the empire itself to weaken. Instead, in peace she made the empire a remarkable power again, and even humbled Prussia by making it a junior partner to Russia. Despite being underestimated by essentially the whole of Europe, Austria stood, then Austria flourished under her. By almost every metric (despite MT's own fair weather conservatism) MT was a great feminist figure. Very absolute few could have saved the empire as well as she did. Let's not forget that she was totally out of her and all the wolves were trying to rip her empire apart.
Um... while it's impossible to diagnose a dead person, it should be noted that her "bouts of melancholy" could indicate some kind of depressive disorder, and they presented before Sisi even met the emperor. Also her "artlessness" at 15 could indicate some kind of neurodivergence. Besides, doesn't that cut both ways? If we can't accurately diagnose a historical figure, how can we accurately judge their moral character? The tone of this video essay is that Sisi could have just overcome her disabilities and/or mental illness if she'd tried hard enough to do so, and that's something we don't know. We can assess her historical impact, and conclude that she wasn't an effective empress in most ways. We can read her letters and conclude that she could be vain, mean-spirited, petty, and manipulative. We can look at her parenting decisions, and conclude she wasn't a good parent. But trying to assess to what extent her failings were situational is impossible. Also, is doing PR to preserve an autocratic system of government a few decades longer a good thing?
Also, is disregarding the etiquette of authoritarian states a bad thing? I get the rules for thee not for me part, but I dont see anything wrong with showing up unannounced and seeing the fit the others get
Though I've always disliked Sisi and her romanticization I'm not sure her depiction here is entirely fair. She probably developed psychiatric issues after the trauma of being wed and plunged into Court at 15. In addition to most of her actions seeming a reaction against hurt, she may just have reproduced her mother and mother-in-law's attitudes to motherhood. After all, her mother focused on Helena and her aunt basically kidnapped her kids. Having said this, I'll keep disliking her for she was basically a fool.
The antidote to romanticization is not prosecution. This diatribe forcefully states the courtier case for the domineering and possessive Archduchess Sophie, who resolved to be happy so long as she was in control. So noted. Yes, beginning with her perhaps understandable depression, Sisi had many flaws. Some were exacerbated by being saddled at 16 with a dullard husband, areactionary relations and venomous surroundings
She was never supposed to be a mother. I have the feeling she hated motherhood even more than aging. The pressures of patriarchy forced motherhood into her, and her children paid the price. I pity her, really. Not envy, love or admire. Just pity.
This deep dive into her historical figure has given me an entirely new appreciation of a painting I often see when I visit Miramare Castle: Charlotte of Belgium greeting Sisi's retinue in the small harbour of the castle. I can only imagine the level of strain that afternoon must have put on the Miramare household, given what a terrible guest Sisi turned out to be. As a former Austro-Hungarian major city, here in Trieste we do have our mandatori Sisi monument, but I've got to say her presence is quite understated: there much more fondness of Maria Theresa for investing heavily in the urban development of the city, and Maximilian and Charlotte thanks to Miramare castle, so you see more of them as far as monuments and plaques go. Then again, Sisi was in town about 14 times on the way to Corfu, but from what I gather she mostly kept to Miramare, so... On a side note, it's so astounding that Sisi's true character basically lives up to the relatively unwarranted historical reputation Marie Antoinette has endured until a few decades ago, while maintaining a pristine historical reputation herself: terrible monarch, vain, callous and self-centered, wantonly spending while the realm is in financial trouble, bad mother (though not to the extent that was pinned onto Marie Antoinette, yeesh), bad wife manipulating her husband for political gain, distant with the people, awful to the nobles... she checks every single box.
This is an interesting biography but it does what a lot of them do which is gloss over how insanely young she was. She was 16. She was empress two years before most places now would consider someone an adult. She would have been empress 5 years just to get to 21. Most people don’t really mature as adults into well into their 20s. How much of her personality is a result of that? She got thrown into a position a teenager really shouldn’t have been in.
Also they say fame can stunt you I think being a empress and a mother to a daughter instead of a heir kinda of ruined her she wasn't suited to being a ruler she was meant to be a wife of a lower rank man that would ensure less eyes and less forced socializing
You really can't compare the concept of ''maturing'' we have as current day people to people who were born in the 1800s. Massive difference, Teenager wasn't even a concept during those times, and I think people did mature a lot faster due to how different life was back then.
People don't realize that this infantization of "teens" is very new. A person of 16 would be treated as a full grown adult. Even more so if they are in a royal family! They were raised and treated to be responsible for entire kingdoms and dynasties before 20. She was NOT the same as a sophomore high school girl today.
Her age was clearly mentioned. Also, some people become monarchs or other form of state leader when they were children, not even teenagers. It is a factor, but it doesn't excuse what she did during her long life.
This just goes to show how each country writes their own history. In Hungary, Sisi is one of the most belowed people in history, despite the fact that for the better part of our history we wanted to get rid of Austria, but she is called "Hungarian Queen" as a nickname here.
@@Laleolie you are technically right, for sure. But we never called the king king. Hungary in this period was a bit like Scotland is within Britain. So for us to call anyone Queen was a big deal, that we didn't just rebel against them.
Elisabeth having a fondness for Hungary and wanting to elevate their standing is probably the most significant thing she did politically as Empress. Beyond that, she didn’t do much. Her palace on Corfu is cool though.
Queen Victoria stopped Sisi visiting Ireland, a place she loved for its horse riding and hunting. Sisi, as a Catholic monarch was proving too popular with crowds turning out everywhere she went. Victoria constantly feared Irish separatism, and was afraid its politics might coalesce around the Catholic Habsburgs, rather than just Home Rule (self-government).
@@glen7318 I've seen it mentioned several times in historical accounts of her visits to Ireland. Its worth googling to read more on. Some accounts say it was her husband who stopped her returning, but for the same reason. Her popularity in Ireland compared to Victoria, was unflattering to the latter.
@@benmulvey2704 The hostility between the two empresses (Victoria dubbing herself Empress of India) is shown in Sisi's poems, finally published by Brigitte Hamann in recent times. Sisi visited Victoria on the Isle of Wight, and wrote: "There she sits like a lazy Indian idol. She extends her hand and asks, 'How is your dear husband." Yes, Sisi was adored in Ireland, including in my alma mater Maynooth College, which she entered by accident when on a hunt and revisited twice. Victoria told Franz Josef to recall his wife, and he did what he had never done -- commanded Sisi -- and she did what she had never done -- obeyed Franz Josef. End of he Irish romance, Greece replacing it.
I can understand this video as a rebuttal against the cultish following Sisi has had in death, but no one who knew her is alive and I find it disconcerting that this video takes such a morally motivated view at who she was as a person; indeed it seems like if she had bent to the will of others in Vienna this video would have not been so harsh for her unconformity or disinterest in ruling. Criticizing her character in an evaluation of a historical figure doesn't feel helpful since it stops at just Sisi. There's not much of a larger cultural impact analysis presented in this video and judgments like this in my opinion are not historically valuable. Sisi was not a good person perhaps, but there is so much context that we will never understand. There was a comment I read that she was more of a tragic figure, and I think that's the most generous and neutral stance this video could have taken on Sisi. She no doubt made her loved ones' lives difficult and wrote frankly about such cruelty, but at the same time we have a lot of documentation directly from her--at the end of the day she was a powerful woman who was not happy and could make other people unhappy.
Superb as always, Sisi was certainly one of the most beautiful women of history, she never knew true happiness, as for her misdeeds of which there were many, as an empress, wife, and mother in my opinon she was not cut out to be any of the above, she was a free spirit a caged bird yearning to be free, thank you as always,
She may have been ,but the girl who robbed her sister of Franz Joseph, in reality ,was not in love with him. probably ,neither was the sister . I think beauty was her substance ,claims are she was a good mother , but the dowager took her daughter away ,and the emperor refused other wise , these were NOT foolish people. . Her son commited suicide. She wouldnt bed her husband , but rumours persist she couldnt drop those pantalettes quick enough for Andrassy. Like Diana ,100 years later , no power .....but plenty charisma in the self adoration technique.
THANK you. Why this woman is lionised perplexes me. The more I read or watch, the more it becomes undeniable that she was a deeply flawed person and empress; hardly a crime or even uncommon but definitely not deserving of her near-sainthood in the land she held borderline contempt for.
I agree 100% and i just can’t stand people romanticizing her. By the end beauty can buy anything even rewrite an entire personality. Because they did wrote another story for her just coss she was beautiful. She was extremely mean to her kids, subjects and people around her
The people that refuse to believe what this video says and attacks the brilliant girl who made it are precisely the ones who have watched all this modern feminist propaganda about her. Really shows how pernicious that ideology is and how incredibly stupid the people that follow it are, if their idol is such a selfish, narcissistic woman.
This biography indicates that Empress Elizabeth of Austria was probably suffering from some mental illness or personality disorder, rather than just being a wretched empress and terrible person. Today, she might be diagnosed as bi-polar. She certainly seemed to be anorexic. I don't think she was a malevolent "narcissist," however. Like many royals of that era, she was self absorbed and distant, but she wasn't intentionally evil, as narcissists are. When Elizabeth was assassinated at age 60, her long-suffering husband, Emperor Franz Joseph, wondered how someone could take the life of a woman who "had never hurt a soul." There is evidence of mental instability among her Wittelsbach relations. Her first cousins, Otto and Ludwig II, were the "mad" Kings of Bavaria. Ludwig died young under very peculiar circumstances. Elizabeth's father, a King IN Bavaria, was also considered very odd. They all shirked unwanted royal duties, had outrageous personal habits and difficult, negligent relationships with family members. The final tragedy was Elizabeth's and Franz's unfortunate son Rudolf who struggled with depression, venereal disease and insecurity throughout his life. His life ended at only 30 in a murder-suicide involving his 17-year-old mistress. She was not the first woman Rudolf tried to engage in a suicide pact. It seems Empress Elizabeth and her royal kin were driven by irresistible and self destructive compulsions... but not malice. Perhaps they were not "mad" at all, but severely overwhelmed by very demanding lives of public service that they were constitutionally unsuited for.
I view Elisabeth with pity, not admiration. I think that she was deeply unhappy for most of her life, hence why she suffered from anorexia, focused a lot on her looks and refused to do her duties. I fully agree that she was not a good empress and that she could have turned her life around. But in an era without proper understanding of mental illness, I wonder if she ever really could have.
I came to this with an open mind but I feel there is too much personal opinion in this. Wouldn‘t hurt to include sources for the many claims. I would take this with a grain of salt, just like any other piece made about her.
huh? really weird to put the blame on sisi regarding her relationship with her children. if you were constantly barred from visiting your children unless your mother in law was present don't you think you'd eventually feel pretty discouraged from seeing them too? it's really odd to me that this video praises Sophie as some wonderful wife and mother who "made the best out of her situation, like sisi should have!" when she treated sisi cruelly and was the cause of a lot of her misery early in her marriage. and I'm sorry but it's gross to pit the two against each other and criticize Sissi for not being more "optimistic" and "not CHOOSING TO BE HAPPY" as if to ignore the fact that she was depressive and had other comorbidities like an eating disorder. it isn't right that sisi neglected Gisela (and the way she spoke of her later is inexcusable), but she had literally been blamed for the death of her first daughter. it isn't too hard to imagine that she probably thought, "Sophie was right, I tried to spend time with my daughters and look what happened. I'm not fit to be a mother so I'll just leave Gisela to her, that way I can't harm her." sisi probably should've never gotten married and definitely should've never been a mother, at least not in these circumstances (married so young to a man she hardly knew with such an overbearing mother as her in-law), but that was what was expected of her. it was a duty she HAD to fulfill and she had virtually no choice in whether she had children. that doesn't make how she neglected her kids okay, but I think it's really weird to point out "see what a bad mother she was!" when she literally couldn't help becoming a mother and in another life, probably wouldn't have chosen to be one.
"I've been so maligned and hurt, I thought I would find a life that offers me peace and pleasure" I am in my Sisi era right now. Great video, loved learning about the real character of an idol
I'm sure she was not the greatest person but who can judge her? Would you do all the things you think she should have done in her position? In the beginning she was a mentally ill teenager after all....
I liked your essay! Watched it with great pleasure after an intense work week. But i do agree with the part of critisism in comments about "Sophie chosing to be happy". I'd rather put it as "She had the character and stamina to make the most out of her situation". It still makes the point on the difference in character, and dosen't rip Elizabeth of free will to perform her duties. But shows how people treat alike situation differently based on their character. Beacause one can easily refer to Elizabeth's escapes from husband, or biulding a castle on Corfu as "choosing to be happy", different things makes different people happy. Hope to hear more essays on this channel!
I think this video makes a lot of generalisations without really getting into the deeper into the context of things. Sisi’s poetry isn’t supposed to be taken literally as some deep emo poetry. She wrote poems in the same manner as her favourite poet Heine out of admiration for his work. When it comes to her children, I think you are taking things way too literally and disregarding how strict the Viennese court was with ettiequte and how they handled things like raising children. Rudolph was the heir, so her access to the heir, whether is mother or not, would have been extremely limited and not a doting mother you would expect from a mother nowadays. This video is drawing conclusions to why Sisi sucks in a too contemporary light, because every royals sucks when look at them with contemporary eyes. Also, you really make it that Franz and Sisi was infatuation, when they grew to respect each other very deeply. If you ever step foot into Franz Josef’s rooms in the Hofburg the man had pictures of his wife everywhere and when he found out Sisi was killed he famously said “You have no idea how much I loved this woman.” The man was family man and that included his wife too.
Wow? It's really weird to lay all the blame on a sheltered, wholly unprepared and (seemingly) mentally ill girl who was married off to a man she did not choose and couldn't say no too at 17 just because she was beautiful, who found herself pregnant multiple times before she was an adult, who had to contend with an overbearing mother in law who took her children, turned them against her, essentially ruled her life and made all the decisions for her? Like really? The statement that she didn't just "choose to be happy" like her mother in law is ridiculous. She was a child already dealing with a challenging upbringing and her own demons and was thrust into a life she didn't want, was not prepared for and had no say in. Was she a great person? Probably not, but it's not her fault people romanticize a troubled beauty with a tragic end. You seem to give way more grace to the honestly overbearing, cruel and steamrolling mother in law than you do to a struggling and spoiled child with some sort of mental illness.
@@TY-TianyouMental illness and personality disorders have always existed. It’s just that neurologists, psychiatrists, and psychologists are learning more about the brain everyday and are able to pin point symptoms and behaviors and link them to specific neurodiverse situations.
@@MysticDivinerLJ no, they're a recent phenomenon, especially neurodivergence. People like us didn't exist then, only normal people, eccentric people, crazy people, and witches.
Fascinating Horror did a recent episode on the fire that killed Elizabeth's sister. I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in learning more. The fire was caused by attempts to fix a projector at a festival she was attending.
I can't help but feel sorry for Sisi. She didn't ask to be an Empress and yet was expected to do her duty as an Empress. Her children were taken from her by her MIL, of course the children would view her as a stranger, its easy to say "Well she could have gone to to them" in a modern sense but she was a young girl fighting a head strong Dowager Empress, she isn't the first royal woman who had her children taken. She clearly suffered with mental illness and an eating disorder. The idea that she should have just sucked up her feelings and wash the feet of 12 old women she didn't know, just because she was the Empress, is kinda ridiculous, I also wouldn't do that, duty or no duty, I didn't ask to be put in that position and i'm not about to do it. You also have to remember that women didn't have a say in their own marriages. She is a tragic historical figure who again dealt with mental illness and wasn't at all equip to be an Empress
19:46 this is such a dumb take. this assumes that everytime she asked permission it was automatically granted. ALSO apparently she wasn't even allowed to breastfeed her child - like tf
Cruel, ignorant ableist judgement is what needs to stop. Those mindlessly perpetuating this do grave harm, enjoy doing so and take no responsibility. Years from now more will see this. It's the sound of unempathetic people jumping on any opportunity to think themselves superior. If only they could see how they reveal themselves.
6:20 Maximilian Joseph, Duke *in* Bavaria or Duke Maximilian Joseph *in* Bavaria (if you prefer), not *of* Bavaria. His grandfather had been granted the title Duke in Bavaria because he was the only Wittelsbach dynast who can from a different branch of the family then the Wittelsbach who ruled Bavaria (the monarchs of whom still possessed the title of Duke of Bavaria, dating back centuries before becoming electors and kings). Sisi’s ancestors were from the Palatinate-Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen branch of the House of Wittelsbach, whilst her mother came from the Palatinate-Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld line (the line through which, since 1973, all living members of the House of Wittelsbach descend) However, I think the true comparison to be made is to her grandnephew-in-law’s wife, Zita of Bourbon-Parma. She was empress and queen for but 2 years but probably accomplished more good then Sisi did in her 44 years. As a final note, Schratt wasn’t Franz Joseph’s mistress, but a close confidant. Their 34 odd year relationship remained platonic, with Schratt herself in the 1930s saying in her memoirs: “I am an actress not a writer and I have nothing to say, for I was never a Pompadour, still less a Maintenon.”
No mention of the mental illness that was running in Sissi's family, plus no notion that periods can be a real handicap for some woman... there is both misogyny and lack of empathy in this judgemental documentary.
Her grand cousin Ludwig II. was mostly unfit to rule, also depressive and exageratedly romantic, spent state money for vanity projects, sold out his country and ultimately killed himself. Ludwig's brother was even more evidently mentally ill, leading to a regency of his uncle instead of him from day one of Otto becoming king. Her little sister Sophie ended up in a mental sanatorium. Her son Rudolf was intelligent, had interesting political ideas, but was also depressive, sexually over promiscuitive, contracted syphillis from hookers (which couldn't be treated at that time) and ultimately killed himself together with his underage side mistress.
Sisi reminds me of the late Diana, Princess of Wales...many call Diana the 20th century Sisi...Diana was far from perfect much like Sisi...but both women have had legends built up around them over time...all historical figures should be studied under an honest lense...peal away the layers..take the good with the bad...
Diana fulfilled her duties as princess toward the people. Sisi did not bc she couldn’t be bothered or couldn’t always make the event about herself. Quite different in that regard.
@@Moonflowers11 The more I learn about her, the more I doubt that she was a very good mother, despite what she displayed for the cameras. It seems she used her boys and wasn’t very nurturing to them.
to stop romanticize someone we also need to conduct a proper analysis of the circumstances and social context surrounding the life of this person, which you aren't even trying to do. from what you're saying, she still seem no worse than an average father, let's face it. also you are extremely focused on the role of family and children in woman's life, which may make sence in social aspect especially at this times, but rarely is true in terms of personality. her neglect of her children doesn't say that she was horrible person. it says she was a person who shouldn't have had children. the interesting topic here would have been why do women who do not want to have children, are forced to have them. and so on and so on and so on
Tf you mean "an average father"? For that time or this modern era? Just because you think "the average father" is like that, it's still shitty behaviour 💀
her attitude towards her long suffering daughter in law is especilly cruel. she called stephanie "Trampeltier" behind her back because of her "mid" looks. i mean she was only 17 years old at the time of their wedding, she was cheated on by rudolph multiple times, even got STD and as a result became infertile. i find it mind blowing, that elizabeth had absolutely zero empathy for this poor woman, who was generally treated like shit by her own son, and she even bullied her... yikes... she failed to learn anything from her own situation with sophie.
Her treatment of the young Stephanie shocked me. I found it incomprehensible. If there was one person she could have had the most natural empathy for, it would have been the clumsy teenage girl who was married off to a virtual stranger, brought to a stifling foreign court and made miserable. One of the lesser mentioned reasons was that Stephanie‘s lineage was not grand enough for Elisabeth - the empress who proudly called herself a liberal bristled at having to accept a member of the less-important Belgian royalty into her own family, even though she herself had been considered a mediocre match for Franz Joseph on account of her lineage. Elisabeth‘s hypocrisy is one of her most ignored traits; this „free spirit“ was in many ways just as elitist and possessive of her status as her much hated mother in law.
If she weren't so pretty, she wouldn't be so romanticized. I think the Viennese publicize her beautiful image for the tourists, who eat up her romantic and tragic image.
Child bride forced to marry, immediately forced to birth to have her children taken from her and a terrible life and be happy. Eternally judged by those never having to walk in her shoes lol
Sometimes we can just say we like her because she has Disney princess hair, and leave it there.
She did have incredible hair.
😂
That's a sad indictment of a human being.
@@juli-annb.anderson8816 Given a close examination of her character, it is unfortunately true. She was not an admirable human being. As Empress, wife and mother she could have accomplished much good, but she could not be bothered.
Funny how your comment was almost exactly what I was about to say. The Disney ideal makes so many people complete idiots. The Romanovs are another example, with Nicholas as the princess. :o)
Most historical figures should be viewed more realistically rather than idealized. Interesting subject for a video essay. ❤
Thank you ❤️
I enjoyed hearing about Archduchess Sophie especially, recognising real strong women for their accomplishments and caring of their family is always interesting.
I haven't actually seen any of the aforementioned depictions of Sisi as a tragic heroine and the Archduchess as a wicked stepmother.
Strange how someone with a recorded lack of care for their children like Sisi, is cast as a heroine! At the very least make her flawed to reflect reality
Most?
Romanticizing is not their fault!
Rather a phenomenon made by others!
And now everyone is criticizing the historical figures, although they had/have nothing to do with it!!!
Some what sad had no idia how to work
Vienna is not obsessed with Elisabeth, we Austrians make money out of the image tourist have of her. At least she is finally of use for Austria.
Yikes. Harsh..but true.
Daaaaaaaaamn😅
Yes it is true. Bravo
Stop acting like you guys don’t like having her image connected to you. She’s literally the only thing still keeping you guys on the proverbial map. Without her your most known export would be Hitler
Well who are the people buying these things? She is most famous in Austria and other German speaking countries. She is known elsewhere too but she isn’t as famous as someone like Marie Antoinette internationally. Some people in Vienna must be also amping those buying and not just selling. Expecially those who don’t study history and see the merchandise and her in media.
I think this is a very fair, if not kind, portrayal of Sisi. Admittedly, I do have a kind of morbid fascination with her, and I expected this to be a factual takedown of the way recent media has romanticized her. But you presented her in a very realistic but compassionate manner. Sisi was a deeply troubled woman. There's no reason to sand off the sharp edges of anyone's truth, yet we tend to sanctify the deceased as if they were not real, flawed human beings.
Thank you for this honest portrait of such a complicated historical figure ❤
Thank you!
Where Sisi is concerned, there really is no way to be both truthful and kind at the same time.
@@susanmorgan8833 Can you please elaborate?
She had what we call "pretty privilege". I do not think she would get away with that behaviour today. At least not for very long.
It’s kind because it is a whitewashing. Never forget that the real sisi was a sadistic psychopath who took great joy in personally shooting bear cubs in the face to then have them stuffed and used as garbage cans, one of which is still preserved in her apartments.
Elisabeth wrote in her diary along the line: "One makes a life altering decision at 15 when you are a child yourself we're you can't even estimate the consequences of this decision....
She was too young, didn't fit in, wasn't raised to be in that environment,was so vain that she refused to be fotographed after she turned 35, had no role model, had the rather unfortunate personality of the Wittelsbacher family and had no clue how to act properly with her children!
Although when looking around to other royal families at that time you can see similar behaviours, like Queen Victoria who wasn't exactly a loving mother either. In other words she had a ton of flaws, like everyone else!
In life she was criticised to no end and romanticised to no end after her death just like Princess Diana.
Yes, romanticized for her weakness because of her beauty just like Diana.
@@gabak1292 Queen Victoria was kind of a b***h. A lot of it was because of her mother. She was extremely narcissistic and selfish. She also was probably mentally ill from a few hundred decades of inbreeding. I have yet to see any video saying we should stop glorifying the Victorian anything. No, we have Princess/Empress Vicky (also a pretty bad mother) reporting to Queen Victoria (who hated being a mother) what a bad mother Elisabeth is. So a pot is just telling a black kettle “hey, Empress Sisi may be as black as us.” Did Sisi physically torture any of her children because they were born deformed?
@@pemcortes9467in what sense was Diana's weakness romanticized?
She had a troubled connection to her children, because as the first ones were born, they were taken away from her, put under the control of her mother-in-law. Probably, best case scenario, to not have them experience the same troubles she did. Did that make it right? Of course not. Then her daughter died at a very young age, in a situation where Elisabeth finally had her way: She brought her along on a trip abroad. Do you not think that would do something to her self esteem, her confidence as a mother?
All on top of the fact that she was still growing up herself and always trying to come to terms with her life situation. All of that without any good psychological advice, which just wasn't existant at the time.
Sounds ;like what happened to Marie Antoinette.
"A being of a rare ugliness, but very lively, like Gisela" that kinda broke my heart. Wow.
And to write that to Gisela’s beloved brother, too.
@@ivodoraexactly! The thoughtlessness of it!
I think Sisi’s treatment of Gisela alone makes me really dislike her
Not maternal. I hope Gisela shrugged it off. Wow 😮.
😮😅😮😮😮 😅😮😅😮😅😮😅 😮. 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😅😅😮😅😅😮😅😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😅😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😅😮😮😅😮😅😮😅😅
Having a Sisi figurine is one thing. Having a Sisi in your family is another! Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
Ouch. I have agoraphobia, social anxiety disorder, avoidant PD and other related disorders. I have only learned of Sisi through this video and while I'm not a psychologist (armchair or otherwise), the many relatable parallels are undeniable. So much so that as the creator spoke of Sisi I felt like I was constantly being punched in the gut.
One could say that having an emotionally unsupportive family is how someone becomes lost and tangled like Sisi in the first place (I'm *not* excusing nor forgiving her bad behavior). Just like diabetes, many mental health issues can only be managed, not cured -- meaning they stay with you for life. Every minute, every day.
Yet, unlike diabetes, loved ones expect you to just snap out of it. To "choose to be happy." To be heroically consistent. If that was possible it wouldn't be an illness. It hurts my heart to see the same lack of understanding now as hundreds of years ago. The difference between people like Sisi and those that overcome diversity has nothing to do with strength or weakness. It has to do with what kind of emotional support system they have, and how stable it is.
I'm sure you love your Sisi even if you don't understand her illness. However, if she did have diabetes, wouldn't you study the disease to understand what she's going through, to determine how you may be able to help? You can't imagine how much every eye-roll hurts -- knowing that no matter how hard you try you won't be able to cast off the wrong things about you that disappoint your family.
I'm not trying to make you feel guilty or be argumentative. I just saw your comment and hoped perhaps I could do some good by showing another perspective. It can be a lonely world, for all of us.💜
@@CleoHarperReturns If you are a kind and decent person most of this video doesn't apply to you. Sisi spent much of her time wandering nomadically around Europe. She was hardly a true agoraphobe or anxious of people. She wasn't afraid to leave her house -- in fact she was rarely in her house. Sometimes she built houses and didn't even live in them. Her death partly resulted from her habit of wandering around openly in public without security. You don't have to take this video personally.
Mental illness was common in the family because they married first cousins. Her cousin Ludwig and more so his brother had dilapidating episodes of bipolar disorder and psychosis. She was spared the most severe symptoms but nonetheless she struggled with mood disorders her whole life. I can empathize with her coz mental illness also runs in my family but luckily for my relatives unlike Sissi they have access to mental health services that didn’t exist in the 19th century.
@@iluvcamaros1912 Sorry, missed this reply...I never said Sisi had any of these disorders, I said that I did. While every person's illness is unique to their genetics and experiences, there are certain truths most mentally ill people have in common -- such as the way "normal" people approach mental health. Such as, not being heard.
Something else you didn't hear was that I didn't take the video personally. I took the comment personally. Why shouldn't I? It *is* personal. It's not about politics (in which case I'd call your reply strawmanning). I didn't disrespect anyone, or lash out at the OG commentator. I saw the potential for a teachable moment and took a chance.
Feels to me like you took it personally as well, since you were the only one to reply to me. I'm not sure what I did to invoke your hostility but it's not what I set out to do. You always have the option to ignore and move on.
@@CleoHarperReturns Most of the interpretations I've seen online of SIsi have portrayed her extremely sympathetically and generously, often downplaying her faults. She's called the princess Diana of the 19th century for a reason. I think the author's intent is to push back against this narrative of Sisi being a tragic, persecuted, victim, stuck in the wrong time, and instead portray a woman who in her melancholy, self perpetuated her own problems and hurt the people around her in the process. This results in the video not being particularly sympathetic.
I can't help but think of Princess Diana - they are not similar in personality or behaviour, but they do share one startling similarity: people have constructed a myth around a reality, and fallen in love with a dream. I suspect (more than a little) that this dream is really about self-love. People want to believe in a fairy tale princess, that dreams do come true. When you scratch the surface even slightly, you find a very different reality. We should not hero-worship these people.
We actually dehumanize our fellow beings when we hero-worship them. All human beings are fallible and are vulnerable, even the brightest and strongest among us.
it is odd how people love putting diana on a pedestal as if she was this perfect human being who did no wrong and everything charles and camilla did was awful (yes, she didn't deserve to have been treated that way by him) but viewing these people, in a black and white perception just doesn't seem exactly right. humans are flawed, and complicated, and multifaceted all around......
But to worship a beautiful narcissist is a rewarding experience.
Both married very young, to a man they didn't really fit, with no idea what they were getting themselves into, and neither handled it well. However, for all her shortcomings, I'm not aware of Diana bullying her staff the way Sissi did, and she definitely wasn't so self-centred.
Yeah that’s kind of the vibe I pick up when I hear stories about her.
I think she was beautiful, but I don't romantisize her. I see her as a very unhappy woman, who when barely out of childhood was forced into a marriage and life that she didn't want, and wasn't prepard for, by someone who decided that he wanted her because she was pretty. What a very sad life.
If we look at human history, what you describe seems to be the rule, not the exception.
@@MrBell-iq3sm it is a sad rule, that made unhappy so many people, with or without money.
If Wattpad was a kingdom
Actually, I'm not surprise that Empress Elizabeth is as popular as she is and I honestly do not think she is a role model, but rather a living myth, the ultimate sad girl. She hit so many boxes of this aesthetic that fascinating so many of us, that it is marvelous. Beautiful girl living through her own Cinderella story, yet finding it her own tragedy rather than fairy tale. Toxic, but still beloved by many. Fascination with her (which I'm not immune to by any means) can say a lot of us as society.
As much as I agree she was troubled and to blame for much; her mother-in-law was narcissistic. Not simply a powerful woman but someone who used control and family to manipulate someone. Regardless of her reasoning, it caused a lot of the issues.
Aktuellere Forschung zeichnet ein völlig anderes Bild von Sissis Schwiegermutter, das weder narzistisch noch bösartig zu sein scheint. Vielleicht weiss es niemand richtig.
Right?! Like yeah, on the one hand, if my baby was taken from me, I would live in that nursery - I would have to be kept away by violence - but on the other hand Sophie TOOK HER BABIES.
I mean yeah she was a nightmare but she didn't live forever did she?
No, she didn't cause any of that
@@SirGeorgeofWorcestershire are you advocating that someone using kids and such as collateral doesn't cause psychological damage to someone already weak of constitution?
I think it's safe to say that she probably did suck as an empress, mother, and person in general. But her life and circumstances also really sucked, and she probably saw no way out of it. I would have sucked, too, if I were in her shoes.
Her life circumstances were the best imaginable.
Because she was an empress? @@saymyname2417
@@saymyname2417 yeah because everyone dreams of being a child bride and giving birth at 16 years of age
@@saymyname2417 living a rich and comfortable life doesn't guarantee happiness
@@hustle_rose - But you have far better chances than anyone else. She had it so good in terms of freedom and riches that she could forsake husband and duties, foster her immense vanity, vagabond around as she pleased and even have whole palaces built she never lived in.
She actually had it all. She was simply in her own way. Maybe she would have needed a challenge, something to achieve instead of endless money and freedom.
way to find fault in everything she did but excuse sophie, her mother in law, for her every move that clearly led to sisi's mental state. especially comparing elizabeth being miserable to sophie just deciding to be happy. has a very strong vibe of smb telling a depressed person "oh, but have you /tried/ to be happy? i think you should just try"
I think that is a fair assessment, but I also think it’s fair to put mindset into perspective. It’s something I’ve been working with my therapist on. Our perspective on life can really help. If we lay down and let the world trample us, it can be hard to get back up. There is something to be said about making something out of your situation, however, people should not be judged if they don’t react to situations positively. Elizabeth SHOULD be criticized, however, as she abused her children in response to her circumstances, which is never okay.
True
I think it maybe more as "accepting role and position and try to find happiness, rather than despair".
I react to many things different to my close relatives, who react with panic and fear to anything happening in their lives. It is partially my conscious choice not to. I have friend who is in not greatest marriage, but she finds fun in life, rather then trying to make others' life hell.
Women's life at the time was the life of the property - your role was to get a husband, possibly wealthy one and chosen by family, give birth and cope with the situation you didn't choose and couldn't change.
You could try to adjust - like current Princess of Wales do, smile, wave to the crowds, visit poor orphans or veterans, produce offspring. I don't know if she is happy, at least can imitate.
You can also rebel, like Sissi, Diana or Sarah and loose - royal machinery is too powerful
Of course Sissi could be too sensitive to do so
@@shigellashigella Diana is different from Sissy, Sissy just was horrible i think because she wanted to control all too despite her mother in law. Royalties then where taught how to maintain order despite any circumstances, they where strict with it and those who came out tough did and those who came out a tyrant was , its all in there personality. Sissy was just horrible.
continue excusing that Sophie part, while Sisi herself, turned out to be just as bad as a mother in-law, if not worse. Well you defend Sisi's behavior on that and not Sophie's?
Listen I was expecting her to be a secret mean girl but I found out she was married at sixteen against her will, thrown into a gilded prison and was pregnant within a month of her marriage and was pregnant again the same year she gave birth to her first child. She probably didn’t want that man touching her
@keeperofthe7keys1987please stop assigning long dead historical figures sexualities
Most women married young in those days, and most marriages were arranged. That does not make Sisi any different and wouldn't be an excuse for being self-centred, self-adoring, egoistic, her looks- and her weight-obsessed. She slept in a sitting position with her hair tightened to the wall to preserve her hair, to avoid any wrinkles on her face. There was no place for a man in her bed. She fell pregnant out of obligation as that is usually the biggest part of the deal called the royal wedding. The aim was to produce a male heir and, if lucky, some spare males.
It was like that. Female heirs are legally acceptable now in a few countries, but not everywhere.
@@Anna-v2f6m you really sound miserable.. who hurt you?
@@Anna-v2f6mthat doesn't make it less wrong. have u examined the psychological reason why she might have been obsessed with her looks? the maker of the video called her uneducated, unrefined, and says that her mother in law belittled her. they likely complimented her looks, which is why she felt she needed to maintain them to have any worth to these controlling people. She wasn't allowed to hug her family, her children were taken from her and her husband CLEARLY only liked her for her looks. It's a rational psychological response to the situation.
I mean, I feel a lot of your argument here hinges on the idea that Sophie was misunderstood (feels like this video is a sympathy piece for Sophie, which is fine, but definitely alters things), and supports that just "deciding to be happy" is a feasible cure for what was obviously depression, which points us to the idea that Sisi was just a spoilt brat, and this is ridiculous. Yes I agree that Sisi had problems (part of colonial system, sad rich girl, etc.), and that depression should not be romanticized (like with Princess Diana), but as informative as this is, this video is not what I expected. Liberal dose of historical imagination here. -Edit to add that I don't think we should idealize her, but this title and idea is just as off as her legends can be. She was a terrible empress of course, but this seems to focus a lot more on her as a person.
I love how you put it all together, we should not idolize her, because indeed she was horrible. Thank you you said rightly😎😎
Why do you believe that romanticizing illness is a problem to begin with? Because romanticizing illness takes the stigma away from it. For most of human history any type of illness has had a stigma especially mental illnesses. So for you to stand there and say it's wrong when it's changing people's minds and making things easier for those who suffer from those diseases. Why exactly is that a bad thing? Why aren't people and artists allowed to romanticize their own diseases or why is it wrong for people without the illness to see beauty in it? Who are you to say they can't? Beauty can be found in anything including illnesses. And if romanticizing their illness makes them feel better and makes it easier to live with the illness by changing people's perceptions than who are you to say that's wrong?
I have no sympathy for tyrants either in governing an empire or within the home. Sophie was a control freak at best (trying to be nice). However, the most recent depiction of her I am not a fan of its does not capture her complexity at all.
@@lesliea.6440 This is the same way i also think about her. I am indeed grateful to hear from you. I wish you a lovely good morning from Lincolnshire England🤗
Yet she was...
All this melancholy misery and negativity often are part of narcissistic and terrible people! Because those people think that life owes them something and they're not mature enough to deal with negative situations..
Of course being married at such a young age was a very difficult situation as it was (and is ) tlo deal with your in-laws who always criticize their bride and not their son for every mistake in their marriage.
But those are literally everyday problems that we are required to deal with and being happy or making peace with the people around us requires US to try for it !
She was blessed by having so many beautiful children,she was blessed with beauty ,nobility, luxury and even with power to do some. good in the world ,and in her mind she chose to swe herself as q defensless tragic heroine!
I ll never defend her..
This feels like a hit piece written by someone who never experienced any mental struggles and never went through the harrowing process of giving labour.
The victim blaming put on a literal child here was startling. Elisabeths struggles are swept under the rug or just casually thrown to the side just to list all the things she should have Decided to be Happy about. How dare she be unhappy when she had beauty and wealth? How dare she be a terrible mother at the age of 16, being pushed aside by her mother in law who was being described as positively domineering? How dare she not console her 1 year old daughter who I am willing to bet money on she was not really allowed to have a bond with as she grieved the loss of a child?
I don't know or even care what she did later in her life. The lack of empathy in the first 20 minutes are chilling.
My mother was diagnosed as borderline and the behaviors you mention here mirror her so much that its scary
Must have been very difficult.
@@ivodora I have horror stories. I know we can't diagnose the dead, but the similarities are spot on
That had to have been rough. And I do apologize for saying this but, I after my experience, I avoid people who tell me they have bipolar disorder. My ex-friend who was bipolar, was constantly miserable, would denounce and demonize me. She would start fights with strangers by accusing them falsely of committing vile acts, and played victim. Her boyfriend, who was also a diagnosed bipolar, behaved the exact same way.
A good friend of mine, who's mother died would always cry to me about her father, who was bipolar. She used to tell me how one minute he would be nice, sweet and kind,then suddenly he would turn incredibly mean and vile. She used to tell me she thanked God for her father's days of depression. During his long weeks of depression, he would leave her alone and give her peace.
@gregguralnik2512 your feelings are 100% valid. Untreated bipolar can be horrifying. My mother passed on a few conditions (ADHD for me and Bipolar with my sibling) but decided that our conditions weren't real and said we needed our asses beat instead. We were left untreated until our mid-20s when we finally learned that we'd been diagnosed as kids. My sibling does everything right to keep their condition in check and so do I.
Mental illness/ neurodivergence is never your fault, but it's your responsibility to seek treatment and learn coping mechanisms. To this day, I refuse to baby anyone who refuses treatment/ therapy and uses their conditions as a free pass to treat others like garbage.
@@JenniJemm thanks you. Just so you know, if a friend were to tell me he or she was bipolar, I wouldn't just drop them and run for the hills. My ex friend and her boyfriend, were a decade older than me, and with them, being friends was a nightmare. It no longer felt like a friendship at a certain point. It felt like I was raising two grown children.
I find your Sophie apologetics very curious! This mother in law sounds like a terror to me! She rolled over the 16 year old bride like bejewelled steamroller. Anybody would have been depressed in her presence!
Agreed completely!
Yo okay because I'm listening to this and I'm like, yes nobility is the status and I'm hearing her being called narcissistic and all of the negative under the Sun; but she was chosen by a grown ass man, as a child? Now not to be given access to family and not the one she created ??? Then suffers a child loss ??? They had all of that power to restrict her in ever eay shape and form; and yet that didn't apply to Franz Josef?? Okay. Cool. They all wanted her to change everything she has always been, even with warning signs??? Boy.
The fact that it is noted that the girl suffered from depression, even at home? Budy.
from Sophie's perspective she was probably picking up slack after her daughter in law
not to mention her older sister being raised to marry the man she was forced to. She probably never imagined having to take her sisters place and be forced into a role she never wanted. Then impregnated by someone she didn't love at such a young age. Even if it was normal for people to marry young, she didn't have that expectation when she went to meet him.
I think you're very harsh on her. Considering she was brought up *very* sheltered and then suddenly had to go and marry the emperor, at only 17 years old. She wasn't allowed to raise her own child, and once she managed to claim a bit of motherhood back for herself her eldest child suddenly died. She had no mental health support because that simply did not exist, and from what we know of her I think it is not far fetched to say she may well have been neurodivergent.
she was just anouther insest riden link in the god auful chain of the austrian monarchy. screw the wittlesbatches, screw house von hapsburg, nero typical or divergenent she was a incompatent who impacted the lives of the lower class.
Did she have postpartum depression? I mean, not all women are enraptured with their kids. Maybe she didn’t want kids.
Maybe she did but that doesn’t excuse that she was a horrible person to so many
Depression makes the person much more selfish, you’re the only one suffering, you’re in need of this and that to feel better, and you become opportunistic, and very mean to the ones you feel are the cause of your sadness, or just the people in front of you. It’s sad, but very human; she maybe wanted kids, but not being 16, she wanted comfort, but not loads of people judging her at all times, she maybe had anxiety seeing or touching people, being at the centre of attention or being lonely in general, she probably wanted a family just like hers, big, full of love, and generally free. Those things made her bitter towards practically anyone else, happy people don’t hurt others, and she was pretty happy before marrying.
She was a teenager and didn't have the chance to develop.
I think it's so judgemental to blame her for being a bad mother. First of all it's even mentioned in the video royals were only expected to be a parent in a biological role, not really raising them. And also motherhood wasn't a choice. The only thing you could do to prevent it would be abstinence. And you would be definitely overruled by your husband and societal expectations.
@@hothotheat3000 she didn't want to be anything of what she was expected to be. She was quite self-centered and would have been happier as a free-spirited single. She was born 150 years too early.
I think this was unnecessarily cruel at points to someone, who was previously established and recognized as not being prepared for this role, married way too young, and lived somewhere unfamiliar.
Your mother in law naming your own child after herself and having her nursery at her wing must have been quite hard to accept at 17 years old, a year into a marriage with someone she hardly knew, living at a stragne place with unfamiliar rules.
You are asking a teenager to do better and to be a bigger person when she was objectively unprepared and outnumbered.
Yeah. She was clearly not really cut out for her role as a public figure and she hated the environment she was in. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with a system that then forces a person to take on a very important job when their only qualification is their spouse.
And then add the possibility of some form of depression after giving birth and having no motherly authority over your children, I can definitely see why she would give up involvement with them. Feeling like an incubator rather than a mother.
My thoughts exactly. Sisi romanticizations are not good and they are unfairly and subjectively positive takes on Sisi, but this video is not a fair and neutral and objective take either. This is just the opposite of romantization, an unfairly and subjectively negative take on her. It is far too apologetic to Sophie, who was indeed many times cruel to her and did irrepairable damage, it blames Sisi for things even not under her control, and it twists even her good deeds into something bad, with very malicious assumptions about her supported by no fact. Like how can you assume that when Sisi saved Rudolf from the abusive tutors it was not for Rudolf himself but about her wanting to assert power? Excuse me, what? Why such malice? Why can't we just accept it for what it was, her helping her son, without making wicked assumptions about her inner motives for it? Or when she helped the empire a lot by contributing to the 1867 compromise with Hungary. Why not just acknowledge her good deed? Why instantly jump into reproaching her for not doing the same for Bohemia? Like, that just went so far in blaming Sisi for literally everything that it got ridiculous 😅
Double-suicide and questions of morality aside, I just have to comment: I find the statement about Rudolf having "none of the Wittelsbach courage" and therefore sitting there for a while before shooting himself pretty insensitive.
First of all, courage or cowardice don't have much to do with mental illness (which Rudolf was quite certainly suffering from, even by contemporary accounts) or suicide. Mental illness is a disease. And Rudolf's situation specifically was quite dire - he had been traumatised from childhood, AND thrust into a politically hopeless position after what seemed like an indefinite deterioration of the liberal order in Europe in 1888. Militarism and politics of hatred and everything he was deeply opposed to reigned, as best exemplified by Wilhelm II's Germany, and Rudolf even saw a looming dissolution of the empire before he would have the chance to inherit it (there were calls for an Anschluss, ie. splintering Austria-Hungary and joining the German-speaking lands to the German empire)... Rudolf was sick with an incurable STD, addicted to morphine, felt like he had failed both personally and professionally, and there was little hope of his situation improving. I'm wondering if anyone, Wittelsbach or otherwise, would've been any more "courageous" in those circumstances than he was. If anything, I think it's courageous of him to hold on to his liberal politics (and his staunch defense of Jews in the face of rising antisemitism, might I add!) for as long as he did, when almost everyone at court was against him.
(Also - do you have any sources for Rudolf's "sadism"? I think the only reports we have of him are accounts of him being a "womanizer". Not the nicest person to his lovers to be sure, mostly in that he seemed to have treated them as disposable and interchangeable, but I think this violent tendency is usually overplayed in fiction and we don't have actual proof of it from primary sources. If anything, Stéphanie says in her memoirs that Rudolf was "totally changed" in the last few years of his life, when his political and personal situation became more desperate, implying that violent verbal outbursts and open threats of suicide weren't something he would've been particularly prone to before.)
Secondly, I honestly think the Wittelsbach "family traits" (whether courage or 'insanity' or any other quirk frequently ascribed to them) are pretty overmythologised and overemphasised. It points to an unscientific deterministic view of history where people are assumed to inherit all of their traits from predecessors, instead of being shaped by their environment and making independent choices as a reaction to their environment. There is a genetic component to mental illness and personality, to be sure, but in my opinion there is no need for us, in the 21st century, to repeat 19th century notions of deterministic inheritability. If Sisi was never an empress, she would've lived a completely different life. The circumstances in Vienna contributed to the cult of personality and her so-called "narcissism". Becoming a perfect, idolised celebrity was just about the only choice the leading aristocratic woman of the empire in the mid-to-late 19th century would have had, because popular hysteria would've in all likelihood dictated it so.
This video is very well-made, though! I just wanted to point this out haha. I really recommend Brigitte Hamann's book "Rudolf: Crown Prince and Rebel" to anyone in this comment section looking for more information on him.
First of all, as a person who has experienced suicidal ideation, THANK YOU for calling out that insensitive comment! "Oh he wasn't COURAGEOUS enough to commit suicide on his own" - man, GTFO with that bullshit. Like as much as I think that manipulating a teenage girl into going out with him was pretty heinous, I also understand, to a frankly terrifying degree, having "rational" reasons for feeling depressed and suicidal, while also having just enough self-preservation instinct to still chicken out before doing it. While I don't think suicide is the only option in most cases, when you are in that place, it sure seems like it!
Also, thank you so much calling out the "Wittelsbach insanity" or "Wittelsbach nature" bullshit. That one is so nonsensical and annoying, probably my most severe pet peeve of popular history.
I honestly find this entire video pretty insensitive.
Accusing a 17-year old who is being bulldozed by her very powerful and domineering mother in law at every turn of not giving enough of a shit about her children, who she was purposefully alienated from, by said mother-in-law, because she was too much of a child herself to deal with the situation in an adult way, is quite an unsympathetic and one-sided view of the situation.
Also comparing Elizabeth unfavourably to Sophie right before this to set up a dichotomy of dutiful, sensible and dependable Sophie and touchy, immature, flighty Elizabeth by implying that their situations were at all similar, when in fact they really weren’t is at best very unflattering framing.
Sophie was the eldest daughter of a King and (much like Helene) had been raised her entire life with the expectation of getting into a loveless marriage of political alliance and because of this was MUCH better prepared for the pressures of leading a highly public life, court politic, actual politics, and the personal challenges of carving out happiness, leading such a life. Sisi, by contrast was much younger (yes, 16 to 19 is a world of difference in this regard) and much less worldly, experienced and educated, when this lifestyle was thrust upon her.
Was Elzabeth this perfect human being from a fairytale? No. She certainly wasn‘t. Was she a great mother? Again. No, she wasn’t. She was a teenager with mental health issues, who grew into an occasionally unpleasant, selfish and insensitive others needs and feelings adult with mental health issues because she was put into an incredibly high pressure situation at a very young age, received zero support and was borderline bullied and never got the chance to develop her personality in a healthy way. When she finally carved out some power of own, she wielded it to control her environment, in order to ward off more pain. That, she DID have in common with Sophie.
As for the Wittelsbacher nature, I‘m sure there was a propensity for mental illness running in the family, but that’s probably more related to all of the incesteous marriages that were going on, and I‘m sure they didn‘t have any higher average of mental illness than any other European royal house. They just happened to have a few very high profile cases with King Ludwieg, Elizabeth and Rudolf in a relatively short timespan, who couldn‘t be easily hidden, or headed off in time for another person to step in for succession.
Naw, he's a coward for hesitating to fulfill his part of the pact.
@@lainiwakura1776 No :) You wouldn't call someone a coward for hesitating to follow through any other bad choice, made under duress (including inner) or altered state of consciousness. Suicide pacts are not legal agreements.
@@DebeneerI'd agree partially. A case can even be made that living is often more courageous than dying. But I believe here it was just done without malicious intent, it was just a rhetoric device
I think the audience that obsesses over “royalty” to begin with…they often don’t mind whether a monarch was an awful person. Especially when it’s a European monarch. If anything, I think that’s some of the draw.
There are shows like "The great" (Catherine of Russia), Victoria, the Woman King, and Elizabeth I's biopic that whitewash the ugliness of empiricism, colonialism, slavery, and wealth inequality (all of which real feminism is against) to create "girlbosses" for the audience to root for. Real feminism has nuance, and looks at identity through multiple lenses. These people were women in a position of power, but they didn't wield that power for good. But nuance doesn't always make for good entertainment or profit.
Can you elaborate on that?
@@lordfreerealestate8302 People are Human by nature, it's just harder to look over the mistakes of people that are more well-known, the woman you mentioned accomplished great things, and that shouldn't be overlooked
@@lordfreerealestate8302I think wielding power for good can only be judged by those who benefited or didn't. I'm sure many of their people felt their monarchs were doing good for them especially if their evil elsewhere (colonialism/slavery etc) benefits their subjects at home
@tacidian7573 I don't think It's any different now, have you seen some of y'all's current leaders???
Why do I feel like this is a personal dump on mental illness?
Yes, Sissi was a controversial character, not saying she was perfect or should get all the grace she does.
But alone the statement, that her mother in law “chose” to be happy, as comparison to Sissi, who “chose” to stay in her misery, is very interesting. You can shit as much money as you want and have all the luxuries, but when you’re mentally sick, have things like borderline or depression, it’s not a matter of choosing.
Having depression and suicidal ideation myself, I’d be jobless, homeless and dead by now, if I didn’t have my medication and professional help. Your mind doesn’t function normally. I didn’t get a friend a cake I promised and had a break down, sure that she would break off the friendship. Now I’m like, damn chill.
But without the proper help you don’t have the option to step back and see things from different perspectives. Many in the comments also suggest, that it sounds like Borderline, which it’s the same thing, without help, you’re fucked and will fuck up others.
That's exactly what this video essay sounds like. I don't like the romanticization of this lady either, but even I rose my brows at some of the assertions made about her "putting her mind to it."
Because it is.
Blames sisi for not being empathetic while also not being empathetic towards sisi in the slightest
Agreed -this is very pro Sophie and a one sided opinion piece
I have major depression. It is seriously difficult. Pregnant at 16 and a single mother as the father was 23. He was gone. Catholic parents and sent away for school and keeping my child. It was difficult and attached to my family, and never able to be really independent. 😕 was difficult.
I see her much more as a tragic figure than a bad one. Blaming her for being unhappy feels strange to me. She was clearly suffering from anorexia and as a past sufferer who had the benefit of years of therapy I can only relate with her. It is also known that anorexia stem in part from a lack of control in one own life and that it is a way to cope : controling your own body. Princess Diana was afflicted with it after her marriage. Both are young women (in fact Elizabeth wasn't even a women by today standard) who were married in a world that they weren't prepared for. I also would like to say, that Elizabeth being just a little bit a better Empress would have endear the people is only speculation. Marie-Antoinette, another very young bride, was hated by the French no matter what. Although I agree that Elizabeth has been glamorized way too much, focusing on her flaws isn't much better. I tend to pity her more than anything. I know you put some balanced in you video, but I believed she was mostly a fragile and traumatized girl who tried to cope as she could in a time that mental health issue were treated with cold baths.
You capture my sense of Elizabeth, in sum. --- I see her as a tragic figure.
The mention of Marie Antoinette in your comment. The way Sisi is treated makes Marie Antoinette's fate a lot more unfair when you think about it. since although she obviously had flaws, but at least she was far more pleasant to people who actually knew her, or lived close to her or had any sort of interaction with her, things we obviously can't say about Sisi. And she was a far better wife to her husband and mother to her children. Sisi's whining about court life (which all falls apart when you realize how much she actually enjoyed it and how much she took use of it and took it for granted) also makes me cringe, since France was an actual hell for Marie Antoinette
Did you watch the video or just post this before watching? She’s not evil, but she was incredibly selfish and abusive of everyone who loved her or depended on her. Building palaces while people starve is pretty close to bad or even evil though. This is the type of “understanding” or assessment an ugly and plain woman or man would never get. Eccentricities are only alluring, fascinating and/or “whimsical” seeming when the subject is beautiful, a genius or possesses some extraordinary talent. Had it been some nobody or a hideous royal displaying these same behaviors they’d just been labeled “weird” and “disconcerting.”
@@The_ZeroLine Men, both bad and good looking, have sent very young man to war on a whim and for absolutely nothing (think George W. Bush and Irak) and haven't been called evil. Ultra rich people still build palace or fly in spaceship (think Elon Musk) while people starve and are admired even today, so yes a lot is still excused today. And yes I have watch the video and I also read extensively on Elizabeth.
@@altinaykor364 , I fully agree with your assessment of Marie Antoinette. She did a few foolish things when she was very young. But eventually she became a good wife and mother. She was never emotionally cruel. Her biggest mistake was, that she believed she could get away with hiding herself away from court life and the often nasty reality in France.
Kinda seems unfair that her parents wanted to be away from the life that Sisi was forced to be in. Her mother wanted to have it both ways and made her daughter be as miserable as she was. Also I'm sure letters to her family were probably read by the servants, after all the video states that she never had any privacy. That's probably why there were contradictions to what was happening, her diary might have been the only place she could possibly express her situations, very sad.
Did you know she wrote a book about her life that she wanted published? It never happened, though. Someone "responsible" for her saw to that. Says it all, doesn't it?
Or she would try to go to her happy place which her mother -in law HATED, Hungary. When that was not possible travel around Europe. Better to disappear then not mess up? #wedonttalkaboutBruno
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Elizabeth surely was not the best empress as history remembers. But this account of Elizabeth’s life was, in my opinion, quite biased and unnecessarily harsh. The title emphasized on her lack of responsibility as an empress, along with bold claims that she was a “terrible” person.
But when we enter the video expecting an account of how mean and irresponsible Elizabeth is, instead of receiving info about her inaction to serve her role as Empress - a role that she never wanted since the beginning and eventually caused her murder - we are greeted by explanations of her character. The uploader says she is naïve, a fitting claim. But considering Elizabeth was 16 at the time she married, how is it even surprising?
Historically people do mature faster on average since they die earlier in life, but that’s more on changes in societal roles, your physical and mental growth is not impacted. She has the same mental development of any 16-year-old in 2024. “ yet other 16 years old can handle it,” you might argue. But Elizabeth’s upbringing was never accounted to become an empress. Instead of her mother who groomed her sister to become a successful empress, it was her father who raised her to love the countryside and its freedoms. She was not brought up like many upper-class ladies of her times, not to mean that she’s better because of the difference in childhood. Yet the uploader fails to account for that.
Their choice of words also quite literally says of their opinion: “young”, “naïve”, “ irresponsible”, “ selfish”, “ narcissistic” … none of these words are wrong, it is the fact that the uploader only portrayed one aspect of Elizabeth and is discreetly influencing our opinion using the choice of negative connoted words.
Elizabeth was not the brightest of empresses, certainly not among the most outstanding queens and Empress in the long course of history. But she had done good for the astro Hungarian Empire. In the times of political instability within her empire, she helped to bring the Hungarian people closer to those with the privilege of living in the capital of Vienna. Thus possibly avoiding a rebellion and inner turmoil. Yet the video does not include this in the narrative either.
I also find it quite unsettling how the uploader finds it fitting to portray Sophie as a “strong minded responsible and practical archduchess”. Both of them are real persons that existed and have their own flaws. Sophie had blamed Elizabeth for not being able to produce a child for the empire. While that was reasonable for a royal woman of her times, she took it as far as to writing threatening letters to her daughter-in-law. A historical account written in 2024 should view history from a modern lens using ideologies of humanitarianism.
This account labels themselves as a “historian” in their self intro, while failing to give an accurate depiction of what really happened in multiple perspectives. She showed Elizabeth’s husband, mother-in-law, subjects, and children’s, even the uploader’s own personal opinion. Anyone but Elizabeth. This creator feels more like a video essayist than a historian, not that one is better than another. Honestly, this one hour could have been better spent reading an objective historical account (ie. Britannica) and forming one’s own opinion instead of moving straight onto reviewing someone else’s and having that forever imprinted in our perspectives.
This material, however, romanticizes Sophie and Franz. Even if objectively their behavior was more logical, your narrative shows that Elizabeth is a victim of manipulation and gaslighting, for example when it comes to the care of her children.
There wasn’t something about Elizabeth’s artlessness that captured the young emperor’s eye…let me introduce you to men: she was very pretty and her elder daughter was, let’s just say, very masculine in appearance. Even the best of us are the opposite of immune to beauty.
It’s too bad because, with his work ethic and sense of duty, had he been paired with the well groomed sister great things could have been achieved.
Agree, except for Helene looking "masculine" . She was as beautiful as all the Wittelsbach-Girls.
@@juttapopp1869 But the fact remains that she wasn't considered beautiful. When I look at her photos, I don't find her unattractive, but some contemporary accounts describe her as downright ugly.
I almost laughed when I saw her, she would have been a perfect empress, she looked like a personification of Germany. Sisi was very pretty, but did not really have anything to recommend her beyond that, modern popular historians might like her liberalism, but it did not make her a fit for the actual responsibilities she had, responsibilities to actual people rather than abstract notions.
@@juttapopp1869 Maybe those were unflattering photos.
She would really have worked way better with his workaholic bureaucrat nature, he was basically called bureaucrat in charge, lol
I found this presentation interesting but full of unprovable statements given as facts such as 'if only the Empress did this, then all of Austria would have adored her.' Statements of this nature can never be true as they are predicated upon a set of circumstances that can never exist. They are wishful thinking perhaps but the great number and repetitive use tends to make one suspect the presenter is actively trying to present an unflattering view of her subject by deliberately including unprovable statements. And if the past is any indicator of the future, as it often is, such statements demand the opposite to occur for those Austrian nobles who clearly despised Sisi would be required to do an about-face en masse - a highly unlikely occurrence. When the subject of the Achilleion Palace on Corfu was brought up, the distortions presented herein were sufficient to make me question the veracity of every other statement made. That being the case, I choose to spend my time watching shows that educate with fact not distort with errors and where the is one misstatement of fact, there are bound to be more and I do not care to waste my time on a program in which every statement needs to be verified before it can be accepted. The history of the palace is well known and readily accessible and let's just say it certainly is not the history given here.
I wish everyone would read this comment!
It's very obvious that Sisi had bipolar disorder. The long depression. Exasperated by an eating disorder and postpartum depression.
She never got the help she needed and at the time not much was known about mental illness.
The Wittelsbachs were known for their “melancholic” tendencies, as they were called at the time, so there certainly seems to have been a genetic component to what was plaguing her.
Narcissism.
Not Bipolar.
Bipolar? When was there a manic phase?
@@lyndawilliams4570Could be BPII like I have. I’m Atypical Depression dominant and my hypo mania isn’t as bad as mania.
What about the incestual tendencies among the Wittelsbach pedigree. Sisi was later married to her cousin - but how far removed?
I appreciate the information and the historical facts. However, I do think there is a quite judgmental stance towards the Empress as a human. Don't forget she got pregnant three times before the age of 20, which is a lot for any woman. On top of that, she was surrounded from the beginning of her life by troubled female figures who didn't support her. She didn't have a chance to develop into anything other than a self-centered, wounded figure. She was a product of her environment.
Sisi was forced to be an underage bride, and never wanted to be express. It's no surprise she was traumatized and depressed. She was disempowered by her MIL. Sophie might not have meant to bully or abuse her, but she did.
This video is ignoring the many abuses Sisi suffered from her MIL and her own husband not standing up for her, or how they would've affected someone psychologically.
EXPRESSS AHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
Nearly every woman in that time was..only that low born women really had a hard life whereas Sisi had all the money she needed and did all what she wanted without a care in the world.
Very true
@@stresslessmeditation8039 Some women simply weren't made to tolerate the abuse. It's unfortunate that she became the perpetrator, but to blame her solely and not the ones who made her that way is unrealistic.
It really gripes me when women refused to play the game and were treated like bad people. She didn't do anything that wasn't done to her, and yet everyone treats her like she's the bad guy.
You're right that romanticing Sissi is wrong, but let me come back to one of the things you mentioned.
I'm Hungarian and you seem to imply that the 1867 reconciliation between Austria and Hungary happened because Sissi wanted it and she put pressure on her husband. While it is true that she was involved, particularly in some of the details, it was not her idea and wives of emperors don't make decisions like that for their country.
As you mentioned, in 1866, there was a quick war between Prussia and Austria, which ended in a Prussian victory. At the time, it was well predicted that Germany was on her way to be united, the questions was : is Germany going to be ruled by he Prussians or the Southern states, led by Austria? Bismarck's aim with the war was to show Austria how much stronger Prussia is militarily, and to make it clear that Austria will not be involved in the unification at all.
Therefore, Austria had to be strong and united on its own, and turned the eyes to the East. Austria was weakened because Hungarians were constantly igniting revolutions, freedom fights, idepenedence wars against her, like in 1948-49. They had to stabliiize the relationship if Austria wanted to remain an influential empire. The reconciliation was a compromise that meant Hungarians accept the emperor as their king (crowned as such in a separate ceremony) , and in return, they can have their own government, parliament, elections and many more. Apart from united foreign, defence and financial affairs, Hungary was independent, and the "dual monarchy", called Austria-Hungary was created.
It is true that other nationalities and areas eg Bohemia did not gain the same position. It's also true that Sissi was very fond of Hungarians, actually quite passionately, and she urged her husband to give Hungary almost equal status to Austria. It is true that she promised her husband to have another baby if Hungary is treated to a good compromise (and she kept her word, that's why she had Maria Valeria, who was born in Hungary and she lived with Sissi in Hungary, Sissi spoke Hungarian to her and all the ladies in waiting around them were Hungarians.) But the reasons for the compromise were political.
It's difficult to know why she loved Hungarians so much: one theory is that the Austrian court was incredibly formal, even compared to the British etc at the time, and she felt suffocated. But Hungarians were more informal, and we still are, and all the mannerisms and etiquette was not done and not required. She felt more free and relaxed in the company of Hungarians, and in return, Hungarians loved her back, and showed it. It wasn't' that unusual: Queen Victoria was particularly fond of Scotland, and Scots, enjoyed the simpler, more down to earth life there.
Hungarians nowadays don't romanticise Sissi, and don't really ... know much about her really. It was probably "not encouraged" after WW1, and even less so after WW2.
She just loved Hungarians because everyone else hated them. A magyarok az egesz tortenelem soran felfuvalkodottak es gogosek voltak, igy ez nem igazan meglepo
Why is it wrong? Why do you believe that romanticizing illness is a problem to begin with? Because romanticizing illness takes the stigma away from it. For most of human history any type of illness has had a stigma especially mental illnesses. So for you to stand there and say it's wrong when it's changing people's minds and making things easier for those who suffer from those diseases. Why exactly is that a bad thing? Why aren't people and artists allowed to romanticize their own diseases or why is it wrong for people without the illness to see beauty in it? Who are you to say they can't? Beauty can be found in anything including illnesses. And if romanticizing their illness makes them feel better and makes it easier to live with the illness by changing people's perceptions than who are you to say that's wrong? I do not understand your perspective as if romanticizing is a bad thing. When I see no downside to it. She is not alive it does not affect her either way.
"It was probably "not encouraged" after WW1, and even less so after WW2."
I don't know why it wouldn't be encouraged after WW1, considering how much Miklos Horthy was a supporter of the Habsburgs. It definitely would've been suppressed after WW2, though.
It is truly astounding that the Sisi myth has endured to this day, notwithstanding ample evidence that Empress Elisabeth was , in fact, a distant, self-centered, non-maternal woman. Even recent films, save for Corsage, have paid homage to the myth that would also have the world believing she was passionately in love with Franz Joseph who was often insensitive to her needs. I for one believe that even with the idealized and romanticized versions stripped away, we are still left with a historical figure worthy of study, attention and, perhaps, even admiration precisely because she refused to bow to the conventions that were foisted upon her at such a young age and merely because Franz Joseph would have no other.
She is definitely a thought-provoking figure.
@@josepholeary3286It's also important to remember that she was no stranger to tragedy -losing two of her children -first Sophie and then Rudolph who died under gruesome circumstances. The final tragedy of course was her own untimely demise at the hands of an assassin.
I admire her exactly for those qualities you mentioned
She also was a badass horse girl that won tournaments. Ok its a better angle than a tragic princess i would think
It is very misogynistic to hate a woman (who had maternity forced upon upon them) for being non-maternal.
i wanted to like this video but i find it very strange how you seem to blame elisabeth, who was married off against her will at fifteen years old and almost immediately became the child mother of multiple children, for not “leaning in” to her role of empress. uh, she was deeply traumatized! also, your admiration for more powerful imperial figures such as sophie and franz joseph seems like its own kind of royalist romanticization… just saying!
I think the questions of whether she should be admired and whether she should be considered a sympathetic figure are separate questions and yield different answers.
I agree. While critically analysing Sissi herself is a good idea, this analysis in particular seems a bit biased towards the empress mother and the emperor (like you said, romanticizing them) while not giving enough weight to Sissi's condition as a child mother and appreciation for her positive qualities. This analysis needed to be more neutral.
Sissy was a Narcissist.
agree. this video is biased and strangely harsh towards an abused teenage bride
I like how op is like: "Ugh, why can't a depressed teen pushed to marriage and valued only for looks become a dutiful empress and just be happy?🙄"
Nobody said that but if you behave like a bitc"h then you are a bi"tch.... No amount of backstory changes that .
Seriously. Like what 16 year old can handle fame and power well?
@@persidiethat doesn't invalidate the fact that she is wrongly idolized and romanticised
@@raudigerrudiger9713 No, but it also doesn't invalidate that OP sounds patronizing AF because her analysis boils down to Sisi bad because Not motherly enough, not Empress enough and not Feminist icon enough. And yet she kinda fangirls a bit over Sophie who is literally an evil Disney step mother lmao. Also, 19th century being a famously renowned feminist era where women totally had control of their destinies so we can totally judge them based on the modern moral standards. And what's fascinating to me is that despite this trying to be a feminist analysis, the amount of internalized misogyny on the part of OP is kind of astonishing.
@@turntapeover5749I didn’t see it that way at all. It seemed to more like a criticism of shirking responsibility while others are counting on you to step up. Or how nasty she was to her children/grandchildren, how she called them ugly and mocked them. Her kids weren’t responsible for how her life turned out, but she seemed to resent them and only interacted with them to get things she wanted. I’m not a mother, but even I acknowledge those kids deserved better. When your lifestyle is supported by your marriage (your clothes, assets, etc.), then you also take on family responsibilities. It becomes your job. At the time it was common for women’s job to consist of domestic duties, and for royal women to take on the tasks of the position. She wanted all the love, power, and money without any of the responsibility that came with it. It comes down to personal beliefs, but shirking your responsibilities is unacceptable to me, other people were counting on her.
Wow, this was a stunningly sexist and judgemental portrayal of this woman. She was by no means perfect, but „using her period as an excuse” to get out of some appointments? Have you heard of endometriosis, or just the regular menstrual pain that most women experience? I hope you were spared that kind of experience, and I think you were, as hatred emanated through most phrases in this - admittedly thorough - analysis. To me, Sissi seems to have been suffering from severe mental health challenges. Melancholy, which you mention so often, is the word they used in those times for Major Depressive Disorder, and as someone else in the comments was saying, she matches a lot of key traits for Borderline Personality Disorder. That's one where people are typically in so much pain on a daily basis that they would rather hurt themselves - or attempt to end themselves - in order to escape it for a second. Her failure to „fulfill her duties as emperess” pales in comparisson, especially when groomed and abused by narcissists and a sadistic mother-in-law for most of her life.
You are dumb
she was just anouther insest riden link in the god auful chain of the austrian monarchy. screw the wittlesbatches, screw house von hapsburg, boo fraking who she had red watter isues and a nero divergent brain. she was a incompetent hand to a moronic family leding a superpower of the time.
I'm sure the narrator has no ideea what it means to be a woman. Good luck on her part for having you here to educate her about womanly problems! You are a true godsend!
@@Iulian111 Based
@@Iulian111 Ah, yes, a gentleman downplaying women's challenges. You are her true target audience, I see. Both a remnant of a skewed status quo struggling to survive. Enjoy! Your life will just keep getting worse from here on out.
Imagine being "gently forced" into a marriage at the age of 15. Most people nowadays consider 23 too young to marry. Then take into consideration the differences in both Elizabeth's and Franz Josef's upbringing. It's a no brainer that she'd be unhappy. She pretty much tried to escape this life until she died, but back in the time Psychology was just developing and it certainly didn't develop into anything useful to her before she died. Is it really necessary to tear down what positive notion anyone today has of this person? Romanticism was what kept her going, if you know anything about her. It's easy to take that apart from a high horse perspective today.
It rubs me the wrong way the way that her mother-in-law's decision to "just be happy" is held up in contrast in order to make Elizabeth look even worse. It's wonderful that she was able to do that, but implying that happiness and good mental health is as simple as that is pretty insensitive, imo. Elizabeth was clearly a flawed person, but I doubt I would have been a great mother at 17, even barring any postpartum depression and other issues.
Who thinks 23 is too young?
@@erinharkiewicz7239, I mean, am I to write down names and addresses for you? A lot of people thinks so and for a lot of people it proves true, while others make different experiences. Still, it can at least be considered.
15 were considered back then a very appropriate age for marriage. We forget that the life expectancy back then was way lower than now ( people died often in their 40s) while baby mortality was extremely high and so people had to get married as young as they could in order to increase their chances to have children. And that kept on up until the 1950s. My grandmother f.e who was born back in 1906, got married at the age of 14 my grandfather who was back then just 18. No one forced them to get married. They married out of love and it was considered a very normal and appropriate marriage. There were no objections from their parents. Now my grandmother had 8 pregnancies but only 5 children that survived up to their adulthood. Considering that Sisi who preceded my grandma for almost 80 years wasn't that young for marriage. It was at the right age for that era's standards let alone for women of her class.
The fact that she survived up to her 60s was the exception, probably because she had a very high life quality as an Empress. But this wasn't the case for the other contemporary to her women.
It is wrong to judge historical persons' actions and life styles out of the context of the era that they lived.
@@creativecolours2022, that's not true. EVERYONE around her was aware, she was too young. Honestly, read some contemporary authors about Elisabeth.
"Sophie decided to be happy!" Oh goodness, I'm so glad that severe depression can just be decided away like that. 😂
Sophie wasn’t in a severe depression, she was in a bad circumstance. There is a difference between being clinically depressed and finding one’s self in a terrible situation. For most people, happiness is a choice. And even if one is depressed, there is a way out of that if one makes the choices needed to treat the depression.
Shes saying Elizabeth had depression clinically. Not Sophie.@@gwenjackson8583
There is much we choose in our lives. I am a pessimist by nature, but I decided that I had two choices. I could be a gloomy pessimist, or I could be a happy pessimist. I choose to be happy, because gloom is unhelpful and counterproductive. I can make plans to counteract the worst-case scenarios that I foresee, or at least I can bear them with a smile, having prepared for them mentally. The fact that the lady took one long look at her unfortunate situation with such a mismatched marriage and found both love and happiness is to her credit and wisdom. She faced a nearly identical choice to the young empress, but she chose better and was the better in all ways.
It actually can be. People can go through very extreme circumstances and be happy because they don't lose hope or purpose. A lot of the therapy you receive for depression is really about changing your mindset and finding meaning.
I don’t think that Sophie’s work to cultivate her own happiness after being thrown into circumstances beyond her control implies that Elizabeth could have done the same.
It’s necessary to contextualize Sophie in this way to so we as the audience understand that she was a force of nature. It also makes for an interesting juxtaposition for Elizabeth
I do feel for Sissi in having her children taken from her so soon after they were born. You come across a bit harsh and judgmental. I’m a mother myself so i can put myself in her shoes and I can easily imagine her suffering from postpartum depression due to not only her body sensing her baby is missing but also due to how mentally draining it would be to have someone controlling every aspect of your life, I can very much so see the Empress just not having the will to fight. Plus with how the all the children reacted, it’s clear that Sophie was the one hey saw as their primary caregiver and found way more comfort in her than Sissi, something Sophie guaranteed would be the case with how she made sure to raise the children. So Sissi wasn’t even seen as the mother figure to her children, how would you feel if your mother-in-law stole your rights as a mother away from you over and over again. You are clearly not a mother and know nothing of how devastating of an effect that has on a mother. You paint her out to be a poor mother when she was never allowed to truly be one to begin with. She definitely deserves way more grace as a mother.
Very good point! And to add on to all of that she was 16 :/
And the only time she was given the chance to take care of her daughter, the girl died under her care because of sickness. She was 18 and suffered a breakdown and lost the chances to take care of the rest of her children after that. The lost of her oldest daughter gave a long lasting impact towards this family and Sisi's motherhood.
Very good comment, thank you!
She was just a child, and Sophie, her mother-in-law knew that as well, hence why she didn't even want Franz to marry her, but she couldn't overrule the decision of the emperor. She would have been a terrible mother at 16 (and wasn't a whole lot better later either).
I agree with you on this
Don't ignore the (at minimum highly possible) role of syphilis in the fate of Rudolf. Nothing any mother could do about that.
As much as I agree she was not perfect, I would refrain from calling her "narcissistic" or "selfish" with such a little information. She showed signs of mental illness since the young age and some people might agree that she posessed characteristics of someone with a borderline personality disorder, but it can only be speculated. She was very much controlled by her emotions that were unstable and she seemed to have had a quick temper, abandonment issues and bitterness towards people believed did her wrong. She was forced to take a role that she just couldn´t emotionally deal with, so I wouldn´t put blame on her for the way she viewed her children. She probably saw them as a reminder of her life in the "golden cage". I think she is a great example of a woman who was not particularly mentally stable but still put into one of the most powerful postion there was at the time. I don´t think she had any idea about what her life was going to be like when she married Franz. Her depression and misery might seem ungrateful, but one can´t help how they feel with no amount of reason. Like her father, she just felt trapped.
Narcissism is a word that people use without knowing what it means.
Cool backstory. But a petty self-indulgent antisocial asshole is _still_ a petty self-indulgent antisocial asshole.
Borderline Sounds likely to me
Sisi may not have been narcissistic but she is certainly mean. She addressed Gisela as "A being of a rare ugliness, but very lively, like Gisela" in a writing intended for Gisela’s own beloved brother. Not to mention her blatant fat-shaming of the Duchess of Teck 50:13
I'm of the strong opinion that Sisi is misogynistic with regards to women's appearances and weight. Also, narcissism is excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance so Sisi is indeed a narcissist.
www.google.com/search?q=narcissism+meaning&client=opera-gx&hs=KHG&sca_esv=9781a9b17bdb0a90&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWILgrq-OYRt27RwvzCubLyUOiaXDDw%3A1717834067859&ei=UxFkZriNNLvH1e8P9quU-Ac&oq=narcissism&gs_lp=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&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
I agree. It sounds as if she suffered from severe, untreated depression. I can only speculate. I wonder if perhaps she had been given appropriate medical treatment, might her relationships been healthier as well?
Oh no, how dare this traumatized teenage bride not just "choose to be happy". How dare she be depressed but still try to find escape from her circumstances by going into nature or horseback riding. She should have just sucked it up and lived gratefully the exact way this royal family demanded - a broodmare the emperor bought because she was young and pretty.
Now her coping, spending, running away, obsessing over looks, treating others poorly was naturally a menace to deal with, but she clearly was not meant for that life. She didn't know what being an empress would mean and saying no to an emperor's proposal was not possible.
They ruined her life and blamed her for not being able to adjust to the abuse. Young women in history always get blamed for how they react to the horrible situations they are put into. I imagine the institution of monarchy is generally abusive to all who are forced participate.
Well said! Not a single one of us can dream of really knowing how it all felt to Elisabeth. We have an idea, a glimpse. Stories that were being told through the filter of the time by her peers and what she left herself in letters, diaries etc. Still, nobody can really know what it was to walk in her shoes with no hope of ever really restoring her life to what she wanted it to be. It is so heartbreaking to read her own words, when she was 16 and realized the whole marriage was a mistake, just a couple of days after it had happened. At 16. No backsies!
Dont get me wrong I totally agree we shouldn't blame it completely on her but victims can still become perpetrators. Also I think that people who say you can "choose to be happy" have clearly never dealt with depression... she needed help and she never should have been allowed to marry when she was clearly unprepared for the role. She was indeed a victim but even if she was unable to adapt and giving this new life a shot that doesn't make it ok for her to make everyone else suffer. You can be a victim and still be wrong in how you treat others....Honestly she needed a good therapist because it was clear from day 1 that she did not have the mental fortitude to handle all that without blowing up. She got stuck inside her head and gave up on happiness... my therapist would have a field day with her 😅
@@claudiafernandes1150, I mean you are completely right. It's just that we know so much more today. From an early age on, results from psychological studies have an effect on us, e. g. how teachers treat kids, even a much broader range of parents have learned stuff by just reading magazines, books, getting counsel and so on. (Not saying that everyone is an expert, but things have changed a lot by implemented psychological knowledge).
She didn't have any of that. Most of her problems didn't even have a name, yet, except for "havin hysteric fits". And she didn't have practical solutions either. There were no therapists, no internet, no books, nothing.
Again, you're right that she can be held responsible for her actions, but we can't look at her and judge her from our modern point of view. She was the only person she could rely on to understand she even was in a difficult position. That does something with a person. I'm glad I'm not in her shoes. ;p
@@Laleolie oh I completely agree with that statement I would not want to be in her shoes I would probably not handle it well 😅. She is a very interesting historical figure, I just don't like how some people reduce her to a victim. She was complex, even in her flaws she is sympathetic tho because she was also a product of her environment, that just like you said did not have the tools (and maybe neither the will) to help her. She was no martyr, no monster, no saint, she was Empress Sisi of Austria
thank you! her MIL didn't take her life into her own hands, she just accepted that she had very little power and autonomy over her own life.
My grandmother lost a young child to cancer and after that loss, whatever trauma it caused, she began neglecting her other children including my father. She also married young without a chance to grow up and mature. Sisi‘s background reminded me a lot of my grandmother, and I think both ladies were victims themselves and it‘s hard for me to call people who struggle with mental illness solely TERRIBLE. A person who never learned love cannot love, who never was cared for cannot care. Simple as that. And it‘s not like she only neglected her children, she was neglecting herself too. We don‘t have to look up to historic figures or romanticize them but why direct so much hate on Sisi like she is the worst person to exist?
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Definitely a case of Pretty Privilege where she would get no romanticization if she had been plain or ugly...
However, I am sympathetic to the fact that she seems to have been born into a life that she was not mentally suited for at all. Arm chair psychology tells me that a lot of her issues may have come from crippling anxiety and depression. The obsession with her looks for example - it was arguably the one thing she had complete control over, therefore she was extremely vain. But that is pure conjecture of course.
*Edit* Whatever her mental issues, still didn't give her the pass to treat the people around her like garbage.
Anxiety and depression don't come out of nowhere. I think a lot of her personality comes down to the way she was (not) raised. Nobody seemed to give her the proper support, care and education. While she was a child that might be alright but as she grew up, she had no tools to deal with life.
What kept her going for a while were probably horses?! She really loved horses and to be rair was a tournament rider even
FINALLY ! she was a sociopath like all the royal families members, 1,74m of height, always 50 kilos and with the corsette she wore, her waist was 45 cm.....she was obsessed with her weight and youth, she did not want to get old and was using raw meat on her face as beauty treatments, she was walking with her ladies in waiting at least 10 km at high speed and she did this everyday, she did not like to have s...x with Joseph despite he was a very goodlooking man, the reason she gave was he was too much for her and used to introduce him noble women who might help to keep him "calm"....and so on and so forth. 😅
Honestly what type of life would she have an easier time with lol
@@catsinburg8626 idk, maybe one that doesn't involve her becoming a child bride?
When i saw the title i thought id watch a tyrant, not a girl that was never meant to be empress
Same, i was struggling to understand the point she was trying to make
That doesn't give her the right to be a shit empress. She had much time to learn and everything was put at her disposal but she was too self-centred to care.
That doesn't give her the right to be a shit empress. She had much time to learn and everything was put at her disposal but she was too self-centred to care.
@@SirGeorgeofWorcestershire ...well, yeah, no one has the right to be an asshole, I think that goes without saying... Regardless of that, it's clear no one tried to help her have etiquette, (even then, some of us struggle with stuff like this even KNOWING what people want from us).
Something I didn't say in the original comment is that she's OBVIOUSLY mentally ill. Things for her weren't as simple as "be nicer to people", "be less anti-social".
There's so many worse people in history that get defended for much less, but yeah, let's villainfy a mentally ill girl instead.
Since you don't understand what goes without saying, I'll repeat, having a reason to be a certain way, doesn't mean there's no consequences for your actions.
Indeed. Calling her "terrible", seems quite vague(though on the right direction) and isn't precise enough to describe her time as an empress.
I agree with most of your argument, however personally, I think comparing Empress Sisi to Elizabeth of Bowes-Lyon is a bit unfair. The Queen Mother was from an entirely different era than Sisi, almost half a century after Sisi died. You cannot compare public service then to public service 40 years later. Yes, her opinion on public service was abysmal, but the comparison in itself is still somewhat unrealistic.
I am not a historian, so this is just my opinion, but thank you so much for this take!
I have little sympathy for any monarch and think we shouldn't romanticize anyone who holds that much power over a large number of people. The idea, then, of a "good empress" is counter-intuitive.
And though this video brings up some great points, there were several parts where I felt an obvious explanation wasn't drawn. How was she to be a good mother when she wasn't allowed to go through the trial and error of it in the first place? Additionally, "isn't it convenient how mental illness prevented her from doing things she didn't like but not the things she did" is...lowkey how some mental illnesses work. So, it was odd to see it brought up as a counter-argument. And when the things she DID like doing was "taking care of her beauty" (i. e. starving herself) I feel like it's not fair to bring those up as luxury either. It's also odd that she was blamed for her vanity, considering her environment perpetuated the need to be beautiful all the time. One can't exactly control whether they have an eating disorder or not.
And when getting into hypotheticals - "What would've happened if she just applied herself?" "what would've happened if she was a better mother?" .... what would've happened if a 23 year old Franz had chose the 18 year old Helene who was prepared to be an empress instead of marrying a 15 year old because of "infatuation" (which you have to admit is very creepy, regardless of it being considered normal at the time).
All that being said - she did have a number of flaws. Most of which is that she did not realize the extent of her power and how she could use it for good. Or if she did, she didn't care. (Though I'm sceptical of how much "good" is even possible for regular people under a monarchy.) And truly was incredibly spoiled and inconsiderate.
EDIT: Also Franz and Elizabeth watching AMND and Franz thinking it's dumb while she loved it REEKS of when older guys go for younger girls and then make fun of their interests being too childish in modern day.
Thank you for this analysis.
I have always read or heard on other videos that she wouldn’t’t eat & excerised ex excessively.
19:47 You're applying 21th century logic to a 19th century problem.
Yes!
I've never heard of anyone calling her a "good empress".
I havent finished the video yet and its very informative, but some comments made by the narrator come across as quite odd, like the comment on how sophie chose to be happy and sisi didnt, i think most can agree sisi was mentally ill and saying stuff that like is very weird. I think romanticizing someone who was mentally ill and quite unhappy is harmful but at times demonizing them for those issues is harmful too, damn the sheltered, introverted 16 year old bride who didnt want this life is not happy? Just choose happiness silly! Become an amazing empress and mother silly
😅😅😊😅
“How dares this 15 year old who was groomed and traumatised be unhappy 😠”
However, there are quite a bit of flaws with this video. No, we should not romanticize Sisi as she was not a good empress, but we should not romanticize any of the other royals, either. “She took her life in her own hands [in reference to the mother-in-law Duchess Sophie] many women were not able to do that (even the well-off ones) for a reason. Sisi did not want this life, and was too young and unprepared- and she took that out on others, and of course that would bleed into her motherhood.
Regardless, it still remains true that she was not a good empress or a person. However, *all* of them were colonizers and made choices that ensured the security of their own power- all at the expense of the everyday people they were responsible for. To ignore that, especially the ones that actually did have control over their lives & choices (men), while criticizing a teenage girl forced into marriage but calling her husband “hard working” leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth.
I agree.
It's pretty clear to me that she was mentally ill. You say "she could have" so many times. Perhaps she just could not.
Indeed
@@ginacirelli1581 Exactly! I got angry watching this. It reminds me so much of all the gaslighting and bullying I got for my mental health struggles.
19:30, I'm sorry, but she was a teenager. You can't hold her to the same standards as adults. Having to ask permission to see one's children is incredibly cruel, she could have felt helpless, and having been torn down by the archduchess, it is unsurprising that is the rode she took. Also, we shouldn't take her letter at face value. We don't know the pressure she was in. Again, she was just a teenager. Countless teen moms are pressured into giving away their children and end up regretting it.
Your statement that sisi could have chosen to be happy like her MIL, is honestly a terrible take. We have no idea what sort of situation (mentally) she was in, especially since, as you mentioned in the beginning of your video, she was known for melancholy long before she was forced into the life of a court. Moreover, she lived in a time that was incredibly unkind to women, it is not farfetched to believe that that alone could have made her feel hopeless. Yes, she could have done the best of a bad situation, but have you considered she didn't want to? That the best in the situation was simply not something that could have ever made her happy?
I have no love for sisi, she is, after all, another monarch that fed into an incredibly oppressive system. But this entire video comes off as victim blaming, and with rather shallows takes. Interestingly enough, you do consider the reality in which she was raised and yet you do not take the care to see her through that lens. I have many more thoughts, but this comment is long enough.
A small nitpick in the beginning: Sisi's father was not "Duke of Bavaria" but "Duke in Bavaria". The former title, after 1825 belonged to the Bavarian king, the latter to the members of the junior line of the ruling house.
Ludovika, Sisi's mother, however was "of Bavaria".
the video is really good but i think you demonize her too much compared to others and minimize the absolute horror it must have been for her to be married that young and in that situation, ofc it doesn't excuse her actions but you should put more nuance.
+ to say that queen elizabeth fulfilled her role while she covered up for her pedophile son is way off.
++ please stop valuing women's beauty as a moral accomplishment, it's not
+++ refusing to sleep with someone is not blackmail
++++ the rethoric that you can choose to be happy it's pretty flawed since she probably had bad mental health issues, again not excusing, just saying that it's more complicated than that
excuses, while trying to demonize others
+wonder which one of the parents neglected the son, making him develop madness in the first place
++Beauty as moral accomplishment is what Sisi believed, not what this video is trying to make anyone believe
+++refusing to sleep with someone, exactly when you want something from them, is blackmail. it wasn't like she wanted to leave him. she wanted to force him to dance to whatever tone she sang
++++so many women went through such a trauma you're excusing as mental illness, or marriage against will, or even worse, unhappy marriage and uncaring spouse, with far worse family members(or better) at the end of the day, Sisi was no special in this trope of life. and yet other women didn't turn out this much unbearable like her
@@altinaykor364
1 I don't give a shit who made the fucking prince of England a pedophile, still you should never cover for one and the crown as an institution sucks
3 no, denying sex is never ever blackmail, it's literally having bodily autonomy
4 yeah I agree, many women born in the same circumstances were not as awful, so wouldn't it have been a more nuanced video if we could explore her psychology and reactions without having to put a moral condemnation every 2 minutes? maybe with a little bit of empathy and comprehension without justifying?
why is it always women people are harsher on... oh yeah right....
I thought the comparison was to the Queen Mother, who had no sons.
Had any of us been put in the same circumstances, with the same family culture and same kind of mental illness - who is to say we wouldn't have ended up just like her?
We can't say for sure but I know I wouldn't have called my own daughter a skinny pig with little piglets after she had given birth to my grandchildren or called a grandchild of mine ugly like my daughter was when she was little. Some of the things she said and done were vicious and can't solely be contributed to an unfortunate environment.
@@ceton1843 I never said anything that she did was in any way justifiable - some of her behaviour was vile. I'm more just speculating, were we in the same situations as her, and formed in the same way by the same relationship breakdowns... its the unanswerable question
Oh I would had definitely turned out waaaaay worse. I have no illusions about that.
She was a free spirit, then crowned, then disillusioned and felt caged, then bullied by her peers, then became a mom but usurped by mother in law, and finally then lost a kid in during an effort to gain control. Seems like she was deriving self worth from being in control, which hurt everyone associated with her. If you wanted her love, she felt powerful by withholding it. If you didn’t want her love, she became obsessed with possessing you.
She could have been a better person, i just discovered here through this Video. But we have all experience some rough part of life but turned out not to squeeze the lemon in peoples eyes!
While I've learned much more about this woman than before, I can't say I can understand much about a life that is so different from my own.
I have one comment though. Physically and emotionally there is a time directly after the birth of a child during which it is much easier for a mother to bond with her new born. If she was separated from her older children very early it may have made her bonding with them much more difficult. Being quite young and with all the other stresses she was exposed to this may have added to her difficulty in bonding with her children.
Not excusing anything, just saying it may have made a difficult situation that much worse during a time when people may not have realized the importance of this time between mother and babe.
True! Not all of the women have this mythical motherly Instinct. For example, I don't think babies are beautiful - quite the opposite. Rarely a baby is beautiful - but that's not the point. I suppose something might kick in if I give birth and start taking care of the baby out of pity and feeling of responsability. And after so much time and effort - how can I not love it? I only suppose, as I didn't test this theory.
In Sissi's case, if the theory is true, she didn't have the opportunity to care for her children forced onto her or even just freely given to her - but if she wanted to, she could have connected with them. From this video it appears she had some passing interest in her children - but her loathing of her mother in law was much, much bigger. So she decided not to fight for them, and associated them with her moments of humiliation or something. Quite unfair since they were children, who could not make any decision at that age. Overall, the sin of vanity was the core trait of her. Really pitiful.
I never liked Sissi overall - from what I read or heard, although trying to victimize her and call upon one's pity, it was weird that she was able to travel so much, live in castles throughout Europe, but, somehow, her mother in law and husband were so overbearing. Truth is somewhere in the middle. For sure Sissi was not a mentally healthy human being - but she probably suspected it, which sparked interest in this subject. Who knows - maybe without her we wouldn't be as knowleadgeable about MH nowadays?
@19:07 to be fair, if you are young and taught to always lie about how you really feel, you would write lies to please your family. So the “ I am happy and get to see my child all the time” lie is understandable
This is not enteirley accurate. She tried her best to sace their children from the harsh treatment that their grandma gave them. For example they traumatised Rudolf so much he almost went insane.
The picture of Sissi’s unpleasantness and all of her fine qualities and abilities gone to waste because of her decision to indulge herself and her feelings so thoroughly is deeply tragic. Yet I would add a subtle caution regarding the argument that she should have been more like Sophie. I had the impression that Ivodora might find Sophie to be naturally easier to understand, perhaps even more like herself, and may not have quite caught the implication of how she sketched the very different characters of the two women. It is fair to say that Sissi should have been more like Sophie in principle, and followed her more optimistic and less self-indulgent attitude, and it is fair to say that she ought to have made a bid for success in the real world; however, before one says that she should have been like her in any particulars one must acknowledge what the difference in their character means, especially in sensitivity: that some things which for one person are a tolerable misfortune may be an unrecoverable disaster for another, and actions that are easily doable for one person are made difficult if not impossible by the predispositions of another. It does appear that Sissi also had very little self-insight, which may have made it nearly impossible for her and her maladaptive behaviors to go anywhere productive - at least not without outside interference of the sort an Empress was unlikely to experience. Especially when married to an Emperor who seemed not to understand her at all, and whom she did not seem to respect as a person.
Please remember that opium was a completely normal painkiller back then. We know everything that drugs can do to people. and despite difficult circumstances and expectations, she managed to bring about peace with Hungary. This achievement must be recognized. “Sissi” is absolutely not the only glorified personality. Just think of Mahatma Ghandi, who preferred to share his bed with little naked girls and treated his family extremely shabbily. But today's stars are also completely idolized, but in contrast, they have achieved nothing at all and certainly have not brought any peace.
Sounds like Elisabeth was accidentally abused, had to face chalenges and misfortune when she was at her weakest (young, surrounded by people who were critical of her, personality which made her vulnerable, etc.), and became depressed.
Stop making excuses for her
That is wat happened, but this presentation is unbalanced and was made to deny her challenges. Her mother in law was simply cruel. I often think about her when Meghan Markle whines about her treatment. What would she say if Archie was taken away from her immediately after he was born, or if five courtiers would have surrounded her bed during birth?
That's right!
@@Trouble_Bubble36they're not making excuses, but reasons why.
@@Trouble_Bubble36 where did I claim that her experiences allowed her to treat others badly?
Ok, here’s the thing.
Key question of this is: “Should be Elizabeth someone we look up to?”
And that’s also key misunderstanding of her legacy and relationship between public and her (legend).
Nobody really looking up to her.
People empathise with her. And that’s the difference. Mystery remains why the author of this mockumentary having her nickers twisted over Sissi’s popularity. That’s the question she should ask herself. Legend of empress Elizabeth helping Austrian tourism, motivates people to learn about history and even helping small businesses and the economy. I really don’t understand where’s the problem??
Hate to be that person but I smell envy here (from the video creator obviously, not you). Sisi has more influence after death than this video creator can have in her entire life.
Elizabeth is now of considerable financial benefit to Austria, with her image appearing on any souvenir item likely to appeal to tourists. Sadly, that appears to be the extent of her legacy.
I think people who over romanticize Sisi often ignores the context of her historical backdrop.
Because she was beautiful and tragic, it's all that matters, and she became their preferred protagonist. Everything inconvenience forgiven in her favor. Thus they form this kind of strange parasocial relationships with her.
Surface level beauty, extreme pageantry, and the little of our privies to her unhappiness- as if each of us were a shareholder of her celebrity like a Princess Diana of the past. (wow she's literally me + wow she's a fairy tale princess + wow she's princess Diana) SLAY KWEEN SLAY.
Oh yeah, most of them also just loved that she was loaded with money that does no have to pay off her own pocket. She's a "rebel" that just loved wasting the money she didn't earn, from an establishment she so hated but nonetheless whose money funds her narcissistic lifestyle, gleamed from tax paying subjects whose empire and standing she does not bother to better in substantial ways, all the while the treasury has to fund her capricious indulgences and eccentricities.
But those who often attach themselves to her romance- as if they were drunks almost miss the point that beyond being initially unprepared, powerless, and felt trapped in a rigid Vienna, at a mid point she WAS powerful enough to make changes as a mother, and shepherdess of her nation and able to exert power with her children and with the court, and the empire, but almost always she chose personal indulgences over her responsibilities to her children and state.
What's more her framing as the sole feminist in this age while turning the blinders on to those around her is extremely strange, it's curious she was literally surrounded by very strong females, mother- in- law Sophie was literally a -> Strong Woman who made the court her own (someone feminists who often defend Wu Zetian, Theodora, Nzinga, Catherine de Medici, or better yet Austria's own Maria Theresa etc would have in other instances instantly gravitated to, some one by her sheer literal girlbossing made the rigid court her own and held a lot of de facto sway over it) but she's always thrown under the bus and have the Sisi side being the preferred modern liberal side when this era is covered.
Why is that? 1 is a woman who faced these same seemingly insurmountable odds and by her ability, doggedness and through dedicated learning, maneuvering, mastery of the game made herself a victor and not a victim, but she is discarded without a thought in the telling of the daughter- in- law. Strange how Sophie was literally a GirlBoss incarnate but those who make Sisi into a feminist icon will make her evil and controlling (I guess strong women don't exert power? Oh wait no they do, they often do, that's what power is) while all sympathy went with the naive outcast self absorbed victim who never stopped being a naive outcast self absorbed victim even when she had power and after she had power (I'm not talking political but influences in the empire outside German Austrian heartlands and had full ascendency of her children.)
What's more her possessiveness toward her ladies-in-waiting at their expense is down right hypocritical. Borderline personality does not make her less of a hypocrite to first make herself a martyr because of her yearning for freedom only to have her being vengeful to them if those under her should dare to pursue their own happiness. If anything this makes her more similar to the controlling Sophie caricature. FYI, this is how she treats other women WHEN she did have power.
Sorry for the long rant. Personally speaking I do have my own personal sympathies with her, she obviously had her demons and her free halcyon unpretentious days in Bavaria was stifled by the rigidity of Vienna and overbearing influences of her mother in law. What's more it was indeed tragic a mother should never bear through Mayerling and be ended by a monster's blade. I don't hate her, but I do cringe at those who romanticize her so much that they make another reality entirely. Have her be complicated, don't shy away from it.
Sure, but why are we mad at her for not being a good "shepherdess of her people" when we are at a point in history when we have realised and decided monarchy just sucks and got rid of it.
@@Dragons_Armory Yep maria theresia who also gets schools named afte rher, because she did do the first school reform really,
not to mention the other crap in diplomacy she had to deal with as woman and still was progressive and did stuff.
@@marocat4749 MT was extremely remarkable in her own right, in that there's now way that spelled out someone like her would have shepherded the empire from the brink of being ripped apart from inside and out to have her stabilize everything and the empire's position secured. Her father lefted her a bankrupt empire with an outmodlled army with rebellious vassals and all the major powers pretty much betrayed the empire at her father's death. And despite having no serious education and was constantly pregnant and birthing children she appointed astute ministers, brought the Hungarians into the fold as loyal stewards, radically reformed the army to be comparable to the continental powers, and despite taking repeated blows from Frederick never allowed the empire itself to weaken. Instead, in peace she made the empire a remarkable power again, and even humbled Prussia by making it a junior partner to Russia. Despite being underestimated by essentially the whole of Europe, Austria stood, then Austria flourished under her.
By almost every metric (despite MT's own fair weather conservatism) MT was a great feminist figure. Very absolute few could have saved the empire as well as she did. Let's not forget that she was totally out of her and all the wolves were trying to rip her empire apart.
In fairness to Diana, she fought tooth and nail to raise her sons while trying to give them normalcy.
Poor girl. I bet she wished he had never seen her. Sounds like he saw how young and beautiful she was. Married her for that.
Um... while it's impossible to diagnose a dead person, it should be noted that her "bouts of melancholy" could indicate some kind of depressive disorder, and they presented before Sisi even met the emperor. Also her "artlessness" at 15 could indicate some kind of neurodivergence.
Besides, doesn't that cut both ways? If we can't accurately diagnose a historical figure, how can we accurately judge their moral character? The tone of this video essay is that Sisi could have just overcome her disabilities and/or mental illness if she'd tried hard enough to do so, and that's something we don't know.
We can assess her historical impact, and conclude that she wasn't an effective empress in most ways. We can read her letters and conclude that she could be vain, mean-spirited, petty, and manipulative. We can look at her parenting decisions, and conclude she wasn't a good parent. But trying to assess to what extent her failings were situational is impossible.
Also, is doing PR to preserve an autocratic system of government a few decades longer a good thing?
seriously tho, i think im more inclined to just become a fan because of it
I mean she could, her being that of a horse girl , it could be?
But she definitly dealtrh with depression
Also, is disregarding the etiquette of authoritarian states a bad thing? I get the rules for thee not for me part, but I dont see anything wrong with showing up unannounced and seeing the fit the others get
Though I've always disliked Sisi and her romanticization I'm not sure her depiction here is entirely fair. She probably developed psychiatric issues after the trauma of being wed and plunged into Court at 15. In addition to most of her actions seeming a reaction against hurt, she may just have reproduced her mother and mother-in-law's attitudes to motherhood. After all, her mother focused on Helena and her aunt basically kidnapped her kids. Having said this, I'll keep disliking her for she was basically a fool.
Thank you for your perspective.
Indeed she was a fool. Thank you for acknowledging that.
The antidote to romanticization is not prosecution. This diatribe forcefully states the courtier case for the domineering and possessive Archduchess Sophie, who resolved to be happy so long as she was in control. So noted. Yes, beginning with her perhaps understandable depression, Sisi had many flaws. Some were exacerbated by being saddled at 16 with a dullard husband, areactionary relations and venomous surroundings
She was never supposed to be a mother. I have the feeling she hated motherhood even more than aging. The pressures of patriarchy forced motherhood into her, and her children paid the price. I pity her, really. Not envy, love or admire. Just pity.
This deep dive into her historical figure has given me an entirely new appreciation of a painting I often see when I visit Miramare Castle: Charlotte of Belgium greeting Sisi's retinue in the small harbour of the castle. I can only imagine the level of strain that afternoon must have put on the Miramare household, given what a terrible guest Sisi turned out to be.
As a former Austro-Hungarian major city, here in Trieste we do have our mandatori Sisi monument, but I've got to say her presence is quite understated: there much more fondness of Maria Theresa for investing heavily in the urban development of the city, and Maximilian and Charlotte thanks to Miramare castle, so you see more of them as far as monuments and plaques go. Then again, Sisi was in town about 14 times on the way to Corfu, but from what I gather she mostly kept to Miramare, so...
On a side note, it's so astounding that Sisi's true character basically lives up to the relatively unwarranted historical reputation Marie Antoinette has endured until a few decades ago, while maintaining a pristine historical reputation herself: terrible monarch, vain, callous and self-centered, wantonly spending while the realm is in financial trouble, bad mother (though not to the extent that was pinned onto Marie Antoinette, yeesh), bad wife manipulating her husband for political gain, distant with the people, awful to the nobles... she checks every single box.
This is an interesting biography but it does what a lot of them do which is gloss over how insanely young she was. She was 16. She was empress two years before most places now would consider someone an adult. She would have been empress 5 years just to get to 21. Most people don’t really mature as adults into well into their 20s. How much of her personality is a result of that? She got thrown into a position a teenager really shouldn’t have been in.
Also they say fame can stunt you I think being a empress and a mother to a daughter instead of a heir kinda of ruined her she wasn't suited to being a ruler she was meant to be a wife of a lower rank man that would ensure less eyes and less forced socializing
You really can't compare the concept of ''maturing'' we have as current day people to people who were born in the 1800s. Massive difference, Teenager wasn't even a concept during those times, and I think people did mature a lot faster due to how different life was back then.
People don't realize that this infantization of "teens" is very new. A person of 16 would be treated as a full grown adult. Even more so if they are in a royal family! They were raised and treated to be responsible for entire kingdoms and dynasties before 20. She was NOT the same as a sophomore high school girl today.
Her age was clearly mentioned.
Also, some people become monarchs or other form of state leader when they were children, not even teenagers.
It is a factor, but it doesn't excuse what she did during her long life.
This just goes to show how each country writes their own history. In Hungary, Sisi is one of the most belowed people in history, despite the fact that for the better part of our history we wanted to get rid of Austria, but she is called "Hungarian Queen" as a nickname here.
I mean, she was the Queen of Hungary.
@@Laleolie you are technically right, for sure. But we never called the king king. Hungary in this period was a bit like Scotland is within Britain. So for us to call anyone Queen was a big deal, that we didn't just rebel against them.
@@YellowGiraffeGal, thank you for going into detail. :)
I thought that was because she actually wanted Hungary to have independence.
Elisabeth having a fondness for Hungary and wanting to elevate their standing is probably the most significant thing she did politically as Empress. Beyond that, she didn’t do much. Her palace on Corfu is cool though.
Queen Victoria stopped Sisi visiting Ireland, a place she loved for its horse riding and hunting. Sisi, as a Catholic monarch was proving too popular with crowds turning out everywhere she went. Victoria constantly feared Irish separatism, and was afraid its politics might coalesce around the Catholic Habsburgs, rather than just Home Rule (self-government).
when did she stop her visiting Ireland.
@@glen7318 I've seen it mentioned several times in historical accounts of her visits to Ireland. Its worth googling to read more on. Some accounts say it was her husband who stopped her returning, but for the same reason. Her popularity in Ireland compared to Victoria, was unflattering to the latter.
@@benmulvey2704 The hostility between the two empresses (Victoria dubbing herself Empress of India) is shown in Sisi's poems, finally published by Brigitte Hamann in recent times. Sisi visited Victoria on the Isle of Wight, and wrote: "There she sits like a lazy Indian idol. She extends her hand and asks, 'How is your dear husband." Yes, Sisi was adored in Ireland, including in my alma mater Maynooth College, which she entered by accident when on a hunt and revisited twice. Victoria told Franz Josef to recall his wife, and he did what he had never done -- commanded Sisi -- and she did what she had never done -- obeyed Franz Josef. End of he Irish romance, Greece replacing it.
I can understand this video as a rebuttal against the cultish following Sisi has had in death, but no one who knew her is alive and I find it disconcerting that this video takes such a morally motivated view at who she was as a person; indeed it seems like if she had bent to the will of others in Vienna this video would have not been so harsh for her unconformity or disinterest in ruling. Criticizing her character in an evaluation of a historical figure doesn't feel helpful since it stops at just Sisi. There's not much of a larger cultural impact analysis presented in this video and judgments like this in my opinion are not historically valuable. Sisi was not a good person perhaps, but there is so much context that we will never understand. There was a comment I read that she was more of a tragic figure, and I think that's the most generous and neutral stance this video could have taken on Sisi. She no doubt made her loved ones' lives difficult and wrote frankly about such cruelty, but at the same time we have a lot of documentation directly from her--at the end of the day she was a powerful woman who was not happy and could make other people unhappy.
Superb as always, Sisi was certainly one of the most beautiful women of history, she never knew true happiness, as for her misdeeds of which there were many, as an empress, wife, and mother in my opinon she was not cut out to be any of the above, she was a free spirit a caged bird yearning to be free, thank you as always,
She may have been ,but the girl who robbed her sister of Franz Joseph, in reality ,was not in love with him. probably ,neither was the sister .
I think beauty was her substance ,claims are she was a good mother , but the dowager took her daughter away ,and the emperor refused other wise , these were NOT foolish people. .
Her son commited suicide. She wouldnt bed her husband , but rumours persist she couldnt drop those pantalettes quick enough for Andrassy.
Like Diana ,100 years later , no power .....but plenty charisma in the self adoration technique.
THANK you. Why this woman is lionised perplexes me. The more I read or watch, the more it becomes undeniable that she was a deeply flawed person and empress; hardly a crime or even uncommon but definitely not deserving of her near-sainthood in the land she held borderline contempt for.
Perfectly said
I agree 100% and i just can’t stand people romanticizing her. By the end beauty can buy anything even rewrite an entire personality. Because they did wrote another story for her just coss she was beautiful. She was extremely mean to her kids, subjects and people around her
The people that refuse to believe what this video says and attacks the brilliant girl who made it are precisely the ones who have watched all this modern feminist propaganda about her. Really shows how pernicious that ideology is and how incredibly stupid the people that follow it are, if their idol is such a selfish, narcissistic woman.
This biography indicates that Empress Elizabeth of Austria was probably suffering from some mental illness or personality disorder, rather than just being a wretched empress and terrible person. Today, she might be diagnosed as bi-polar. She certainly seemed to be anorexic. I don't think she was a malevolent "narcissist," however. Like many royals of that era, she was self absorbed and distant, but she wasn't intentionally evil, as narcissists are. When Elizabeth was assassinated at age 60, her long-suffering husband, Emperor Franz Joseph, wondered how someone could take the life of a woman who "had never hurt a soul."
There is evidence of mental instability among her Wittelsbach relations. Her first cousins, Otto and Ludwig II, were the "mad" Kings of Bavaria. Ludwig died young under very peculiar circumstances. Elizabeth's father, a King IN Bavaria, was also considered very odd. They all shirked unwanted royal duties, had outrageous personal habits and difficult, negligent relationships with family members. The final tragedy was Elizabeth's and Franz's unfortunate son Rudolf who struggled with depression, venereal disease and insecurity throughout his life. His life ended at only 30 in a murder-suicide involving his 17-year-old mistress. She was not the first woman Rudolf tried to engage in a suicide pact.
It seems Empress Elizabeth and her royal kin were driven by irresistible and self destructive compulsions... but not malice. Perhaps they were not "mad" at all, but severely overwhelmed by very demanding lives of public service that they were constitutionally unsuited for.
I view Elisabeth with pity, not admiration. I think that she was deeply unhappy for most of her life, hence why she suffered from anorexia, focused a lot on her looks and refused to do her duties. I fully agree that she was not a good empress and that she could have turned her life around. But in an era without proper understanding of mental illness, I wonder if she ever really could have.
I came to this with an open mind but I feel there is too much personal opinion in this. Wouldn‘t hurt to include sources for the many claims. I would take this with a grain of salt, just like any other piece made about her.
huh? really weird to put the blame on sisi regarding her relationship with her children. if you were constantly barred from visiting your children unless your mother in law was present don't you think you'd eventually feel pretty discouraged from seeing them too? it's really odd to me that this video praises Sophie as some wonderful wife and mother who "made the best out of her situation, like sisi should have!" when she treated sisi cruelly and was the cause of a lot of her misery early in her marriage. and I'm sorry but it's gross to pit the two against each other and criticize Sissi for not being more "optimistic" and "not CHOOSING TO BE HAPPY" as if to ignore the fact that she was depressive and had other comorbidities like an eating disorder.
it isn't right that sisi neglected Gisela (and the way she spoke of her later is inexcusable), but she had literally been blamed for the death of her first daughter. it isn't too hard to imagine that she probably thought, "Sophie was right, I tried to spend time with my daughters and look what happened. I'm not fit to be a mother so I'll just leave Gisela to her, that way I can't harm her."
sisi probably should've never gotten married and definitely should've never been a mother, at least not in these circumstances (married so young to a man she hardly knew with such an overbearing mother as her in-law), but that was what was expected of her. it was a duty she HAD to fulfill and she had virtually no choice in whether she had children. that doesn't make how she neglected her kids okay, but I think it's really weird to point out "see what a bad mother she was!" when she literally couldn't help becoming a mother and in another life, probably wouldn't have chosen to be one.
"I've been so maligned and hurt, I thought I would find a life that offers me peace and pleasure" I am in my Sisi era right now. Great video, loved learning about the real character of an idol
Ah, this comment so perfectly highlights my point
I feel she made a good case for why Sisi *shouldn't* be idolized...
Sissi is written with ss 😊
@@verina_crochet_garden, that's just the film industry. Herself and her peers wrote Sisi.
I'm sure she was not the greatest person but who can judge her? Would you do all the things you think she should have done in her position? In the beginning she was a mentally ill teenager after all....
I liked your essay! Watched it with great pleasure after an intense work week. But i do agree with the part of critisism in comments about "Sophie chosing to be happy". I'd rather put it as "She had the character and stamina to make the most out of her situation". It still makes the point on the difference in character, and dosen't rip Elizabeth of free will to perform her duties. But shows how people treat alike situation differently based on their character. Beacause one can easily refer to Elizabeth's escapes from husband, or biulding a castle on Corfu as "choosing to be happy", different things makes different people happy.
Hope to hear more essays on this channel!
I think this video makes a lot of generalisations without really getting into the deeper into the context of things. Sisi’s poetry isn’t supposed to be taken literally as some deep emo poetry. She wrote poems in the same manner as her favourite poet Heine out of admiration for his work. When it comes to her children, I think you are taking things way too literally and disregarding how strict the Viennese court was with ettiequte and how they handled things like raising children. Rudolph was the heir, so her access to the heir, whether is mother or not, would have been extremely limited and not a doting mother you would expect from a mother nowadays. This video is drawing conclusions to why Sisi sucks in a too contemporary light, because every royals sucks when look at them with contemporary eyes. Also, you really make it that Franz and Sisi was infatuation, when they grew to respect each other very deeply. If you ever step foot into Franz Josef’s rooms in the Hofburg the man had pictures of his wife everywhere and when he found out Sisi was killed he famously said “You have no idea how much I loved this woman.” The man was family man and that included his wife too.
Wow? It's really weird to lay all the blame on a sheltered, wholly unprepared and (seemingly) mentally ill girl who was married off to a man she did not choose and couldn't say no too at 17 just because she was beautiful, who found herself pregnant multiple times before she was an adult, who had to contend with an overbearing mother in law who took her children, turned them against her, essentially ruled her life and made all the decisions for her?
Like really? The statement that she didn't just "choose to be happy" like her mother in law is ridiculous. She was a child already dealing with a challenging upbringing and her own demons and was thrust into a life she didn't want, was not prepared for and had no say in. Was she a great person? Probably not, but it's not her fault people romanticize a troubled beauty with a tragic end. You seem to give way more grace to the honestly overbearing, cruel and steamrolling mother in law than you do to a struggling and spoiled child with some sort of mental illness.
Not sure mental illnesses exist then, although we can't say for sure
You’re absolutely right.
@@TY-TianyouMental illness and personality disorders have always existed. It’s just that neurologists, psychiatrists, and psychologists are learning more about the brain everyday and are able to pin point symptoms and behaviors and link them to specific neurodiverse situations.
@@MysticDivinerLJ no, they're a recent phenomenon, especially neurodivergence. People like us didn't exist then, only normal people, eccentric people, crazy people, and witches.
Fascinating Horror did a recent episode on the fire that killed Elizabeth's sister. I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in learning more. The fire was caused by attempts to fix a projector at a festival she was attending.
I can't help but feel sorry for Sisi. She didn't ask to be an Empress and yet was expected to do her duty as an Empress. Her children were taken from her by her MIL, of course the children would view her as a stranger, its easy to say "Well she could have gone to to them" in a modern sense but she was a young girl fighting a head strong Dowager Empress, she isn't the first royal woman who had her children taken. She clearly suffered with mental illness and an eating disorder. The idea that she should have just sucked up her feelings and wash the feet of 12 old women she didn't know, just because she was the Empress, is kinda ridiculous, I also wouldn't do that, duty or no duty, I didn't ask to be put in that position and i'm not about to do it. You also have to remember that women didn't have a say in their own marriages. She is a tragic historical figure who again dealt with mental illness and wasn't at all equip to be an Empress
19:46 this is such a dumb take. this assumes that everytime she asked permission it was automatically granted. ALSO apparently she wasn't even allowed to breastfeed her child - like tf
Cruel, ignorant ableist judgement is what needs to stop. Those mindlessly perpetuating this do grave harm, enjoy doing so and take no responsibility. Years from now more will see this. It's the sound of unempathetic people jumping on any opportunity to think themselves superior. If only they could see how they reveal themselves.
6:20 Maximilian Joseph, Duke *in* Bavaria or Duke Maximilian Joseph *in* Bavaria (if you prefer), not *of* Bavaria. His grandfather had been granted the title Duke in Bavaria because he was the only Wittelsbach dynast who can from a different branch of the family then the Wittelsbach who ruled Bavaria (the monarchs of whom still possessed the title of Duke of Bavaria, dating back centuries before becoming electors and kings). Sisi’s ancestors were from the Palatinate-Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen branch of the House of Wittelsbach, whilst her mother came from the Palatinate-Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld line (the line through which, since 1973, all living members of the House of Wittelsbach descend)
However, I think the true comparison to be made is to her grandnephew-in-law’s wife, Zita of Bourbon-Parma. She was empress and queen for but 2 years but probably accomplished more good then Sisi did in her 44 years.
As a final note, Schratt wasn’t Franz Joseph’s mistress, but a close confidant. Their 34 odd year relationship remained platonic, with Schratt herself in the 1930s saying in her memoirs: “I am an actress not a writer and I have nothing to say, for I was never a Pompadour, still less a Maintenon.”
No mention of the mental illness that was running in Sissi's family, plus no notion that periods can be a real handicap for some woman... there is both misogyny and lack of empathy in this judgemental documentary.
Im glad we share the same opinion. Calling her a diva for taking days off on her period is so wrong.
Her grand cousin Ludwig II. was mostly unfit to rule, also depressive and exageratedly romantic, spent state money for vanity projects, sold out his country and ultimately killed himself.
Ludwig's brother was even more evidently mentally ill, leading to a regency of his uncle instead of him from day one of Otto becoming king.
Her little sister Sophie ended up in a mental sanatorium.
Her son Rudolf was intelligent, had interesting political ideas, but was also depressive, sexually over promiscuitive, contracted syphillis from hookers (which couldn't be treated at that time) and ultimately killed himself together with his underage side mistress.
Sisi reminds me of the late Diana, Princess of Wales...many call Diana the 20th century Sisi...Diana was far from perfect much like Sisi...but both women have had legends built up around them over time...all historical figures should be studied under an honest lense...peal away the layers..take the good with the bad...
Very astute observation!
Diana fulfilled her duties as princess toward the people. Sisi did not bc she couldn’t be bothered or couldn’t always make the event about herself. Quite different in that regard.
@@kirstenberg6960 I agree with you that Dianna was much more conscientious. She was a very good mother,
@@kirstenberg6960So she did her princess duties like any other princess or royal? She isn’t special in that regard either.
@@Moonflowers11 The more I learn about her, the more I doubt that she was a very good mother, despite what she displayed for the cameras. It seems she used her boys and wasn’t very nurturing to them.
to stop romanticize someone we also need to conduct a proper analysis of the circumstances and social context surrounding the life of this person, which you aren't even trying to do. from what you're saying, she still seem no worse than an average father, let's face it. also you are extremely focused on the role of family and children in woman's life, which may make sence in social aspect especially at this times, but rarely is true in terms of personality. her neglect of her children doesn't say that she was horrible person. it says she was a person who shouldn't have had children. the interesting topic here would have been why do women who do not want to have children, are forced to have them. and so on and so on and so on
such a good excuse to bully your children! wow
Tf you mean "an average father"? For that time or this modern era?
Just because you think "the average father" is like that, it's still shitty behaviour 💀
her attitude towards her long suffering daughter in law is especilly cruel. she called stephanie "Trampeltier" behind her back because of her "mid" looks. i mean she was only 17 years old at the time of their wedding, she was cheated on by rudolph multiple times, even got STD and as a result became infertile. i find it mind blowing, that elizabeth had absolutely zero empathy for this poor woman, who was generally treated like shit by her own son, and she even bullied her... yikes... she failed to learn anything from her own situation with sophie.
Her treatment of the young Stephanie shocked me. I found it incomprehensible. If there was one person she could have had the most natural empathy for, it would have been the clumsy teenage girl who was married off to a virtual stranger, brought to a stifling foreign court and made miserable. One of the lesser mentioned reasons was that Stephanie‘s lineage was not grand enough for Elisabeth - the empress who proudly called herself a liberal bristled at having to accept a member of the less-important Belgian royalty into her own family, even though she herself had been considered a mediocre match for Franz Joseph on account of her lineage. Elisabeth‘s hypocrisy is one of her most ignored traits; this „free spirit“ was in many ways just as elitist and possessive of her status as her much hated mother in law.
If she weren't so pretty, she wouldn't be so romanticized. I think the Viennese publicize her beautiful image for the tourists, who eat up her romantic and tragic image.
Child bride forced to marry, immediately forced to birth to have her children taken from her and a terrible life and be happy. Eternally judged by those never having to walk in her shoes lol