Jordan Peterson vs Gabor Mate - Disciplining Our Children
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2024
- Note: This is not a recording of either of JP or GM talking. This is my own short commentary about a public statement that Dr. Mate has made about Dr. Peterson's parenting advice where I try and bring in a balancing perspective as I feel both men may be speaking past one another.
I'd love to hear your comments and opinions, but please keep it clean and respectful!
For reference, here's a Tiktok clip of Dr. Mate discussing his problems with Dr. Peterson's approach.
www.tiktok.com...
The problem begins when we treat children as our personal possessions rather than as young people, invited here by us, who are unfamiliar with our ways and our world.
Absolutely. The problem is the society we are involved & if the young children don't comply, Jordan would enforce them to become compliant with the spoilt system.
He likes (dogmatic) rules & doesn't like (or doesn't understand the system of) Socialist rules - self-contradicting.
@@DimitarBerberu My basic standpoint is that children are not possessions.nor ours to suppress or oppress.
Rules are always relevant where there are others. The more 'others', the more rules - has been my observation.
Parenting is a gentle balance between competing vested interests
@@chyfields Rules come from Social values/principles, not narrowminded enforcement to protect individualist possessions.
The West has "learned" to enforce & protect individualism as "Divide & Conquer" rule.
That system creates sick narrominded society that has lost natural/logical way of thinking & promotes fake Democracy via "Freedom of Speech", ie. Say & Do Nothing -to protect the Capitalists.
That system is now failing the world & that's why we have proxy wars all the time - & closer to WW3 :(
But i am very pessimistic regarding the way we have decided our ways and our functioning is affirmative towards nature and innate capabilities of human .... So the inference that i am pointing towards is the whether the way we treat children to become more "functional" for society is actually of some truly virtuous or not...... Or if we are just raising them to be conscious machine which plays as a competent part of a machine which is just moving towards hedonism
Woderfully put
My experience with my three children has come to be that I (and my partner, their mother) need to be the person I want our children to become. That is very, very hard at times and requires a massive amount of patience from me as well a huge amount of introspection on my part, how I react in all sorts of situations, positive as well as negative. Children, especially in their earlier years of maybe 6/7/8, copy SO much of their parents (at least mine do!) it is absolutely unbelievable (at least I found!). I am also increasingly grateful for my children because they do make me think about so much and help me focus on the important issues in my life.
Isolation is traumatic. Full Stop.
It definitely can be depending on context and child's temperment.
@@joshgranerhealth In what context you believe isolation is non-traumatic/abusive?
@@joshgranerhealth that's the whole point of gabor mate's research. Child's temperament shouldn't be a thing to be judged him for. And isolation, which is essentially abandonment to the child, shouldn't be taken as a solution to anything in any case. It's blocking his expression and is never good. PERIOD.
@@joshgranerhealth Exactly. I think a controlled amount of isolation of child is sometimes needed to see if they can develop a certain level of self-consciousness in the functioning world. Yes parents or the community can ofcourse aid to his pain or even to the pain experienced by isolation, but to use strong words as ALWAYS or NEVER is not appropriate. And it does depend on the context.
Yes it is important for the child to feel safe when with parents, but it is also important to feel strong and safe. Strong by isolation? Yes, because if one always seeks an aid to deal with the inner fault lines, they might be left bamboozeled when the aid is not available. A sense of independent wandering ability is what a limited amount of isolated self-reflection helps to built. And it is not always - "oh make me a victim of trauma i was isolated."
It is not that rageful expression is not acceptable, it is for letting them sense of control and figure out is there a better possible way to talk to mom dad ? Is there a better way to contribute to society while giving fair enough addressal to own needs without using rage?
Very wll said Josh! Modelling the behaviour was a really great concept that is essentially what I was trying to come at.
It is like hey child:
Model a calmer and more functional expression of your feelings. Sit with your thoughts little child, you can find a better way, you do not always need to depend on the parent for an answer, you have the ability to do it on your own as well. Know thyself better than an expression of rage by processing it. And if you still need help after some self reflection I am here.
@@nehamotwani6477 lmao lets be clear Mate hasn't actually produced academic research and is not a psychologist.
As an adult suffering the impact of complex childhood trauma, Jordans messages dont land well at all. There is a lot of anger and control, and darkness in him. I respect his psychological advice on many things, but somewhere here he misses something.
Also, i am not sure most parents are being as attuned as you so hope, so i would ask you, if you get stuck, do you pick Jordans approach or Gabors?
Hey MaBoJo1 thanks for sharing your experience and perspective! I think it's impossible for any one person to have all the answers, even if they have unique expertise.
My experience is that each child requires different forms of attention at different times and our job is to learn from the child what they need. What this has meant for me is that I have had to focus less on my own suffering enough to be present with my son at the various stages of his development...for my attention to move as he moves, develop as he develops.
I've found when I needed to resort to overly generalized rules, it was mostly because I was feeling overwhelmed and not resourced enough to track with him. This is when I'd get short with him...because his needs became overly inconvenient for me...and he could sense it. Then I'd usually have to spend more time repairing the rift and had I just been present (much harder said than done), I would have less of a mess to clean up.
So, which approach to choose? Take principles from each, amalgamate them into your own unique style that is most adaptive and responsive to the needs of your son or daughter, wife, husband and even yourself. Try, fail, experiment and practice self compassion because there is no one right way...only your attention, best intentions, effort and willingness to learn and to be ok with discomfort.
@@joshgranerhealth I mean, where did the "time out" action come from when a child acts up? And while on time out, it makes sense most would be isolated? I wonder what Mate's suggestion is?
Gabor way!
I too suffered from CPTSD, and also prefer Gabor. I increasingly found Peterson has a very controlling side deep down.
@@esee6270 Gabor goes into in his new book. A whole chapter
“Which I think might be taken out of context” lmao every time
we are not different. we are human beings with the same need. attachments trumps all, and if the human child gets the message that if he/she cant expess himself/herself, authenticity will go.
I agree but with the caveat that validating each and every whimsical emotional expression is a perfect recipe for building non-resilient, overly narcissistic children.
That's where you are wrong. You validate the emotion but that doesn't mean you comply with what the child is asking. This is to bring up adults that recognize emotions and can regulate themselves in ever changing environments.
@@raquelsilva8894it’s so weird how once you learn about emotional immaturity, you see how it blinkers even well-intentioned people. It’s a shame.
@@joshgranerhealth whimsical emotion? What gives you the right to decide some of your childs emotions are 'whimsical'? Every emotion is valid and it's not up to you to determine someone's internal state.
Gabor Maté is much more mature & on higher philosophical level - holistic Systems thinker.
Western countries are individualistic/selfish, vs the social aspect of the Non-West which gives more trust/safety & less psychological rejection.
Jordan had not grown up beyond the Western limitations & stubbornly criticises the Socialist systems as he doesn't understand them.
Agreed! I am 20 years old. He saved my life from suicide. I will meet him at a talk in Brisbane Australia in February. I am very humbled, honoured, and thankful. Bless his heart and soul.
So much this. Peterson’s vibe is that of a neurotic, self-centered, mysoginistic teenager. Mate’s is that of a warm, wise, mature man.
You're so ignorant. Maté is woke. Peterson actually raised an amazing daughter
@mMadMadamMimm ha ha your faulty perception aren't real
@@constancedenchy9801 Logical fallacy. Conservative perceptions & exceptions aren't logical rules.
I have attained unconditional love with my babies and grandbabies. Not one never ever cross word through whole life. I can't get upset, it's not in me, no matter the storm around me. I do not allow any negative thoughts with myself. I monitor it and watch my thoughts closely. I'm automatic about it now. I am authentic and can change my path very quickly, if required. I follow my dreams and attain them and still am
It is the outside external stress put on youngsters. Colonial, upstairs downstairs mentality. Don't measure up. Luckily my daughter and I have mentored the kids through. Your not good enough they said at school and collage. Broke her spirit. She is now in her second year at University. Follow your dreams, I said. Yahoowee. I am blessed.
The role of the parent/carer is to provide containment, confirmation and security. This allows the child to define their boundaries which form the very foundation of development.
Could it be possible to explain to the child “it’s ok that you are angry, but you can’t behave like this” Or would that be too complex an idea for them to understand? My thinking being that you want them to process their emotion in the moment, but not hold on to it for the rest of the day, or to express it in an antisocial way.
I love the work on Jordan Peterson however I have heard him use certain discipline tactics to use with kids that do not work. A parent is supposed to guide the child on regulating their emotions, not expecting them to magically know how to do it. In this instance I think Gabor is correct
Yes
Children who are isolated outside an environment of deep love and acceptance will naturally feel the rejection but there is a balance between an attitude of… you can do no wrong and there are no consequences, in other words parents will accept any behavior the child dishes out with tolerance. This does not prepare the children for the real world. Teaching kids that some behavior is not acceptable and that they are not pleasant to have around when they behave that way, teaches kids how to behave in society. Saying I don’t want you around when you behave badly, is not saying I do not love you. It is saying that there is reciprocal respect required between people, even between parent and child.
What happens to the development of a young child when they're "punished" for so called acting out, but it's actually a reaction to the parents rage/anger who is not subject to the same rules or consequences? That has to result in some sort of mind fuck to the child.
Maybe it shouldn't even be about "disciplining" the child but teaching and guiding them?
Personally GM makes a lot more sense than JP. JP seems to hold a lot of rage and anger and doesn't seem to want to understand a different context or perspective of many issues. You hear it a lot in his speeches - I'm a Clinical Psychologist, statistical correlation is the truth, therefore, I'm right you're wrong.
The ‘time out’ method is perfect for the child that is playing up to the audience. Take the audience away and they almost instantly get out of their ‘looped’ behaviour. Then it’s possible to talk and explain things to them. The problem comes when the parent (often the female) just tries to reason with them instead of breaking the ‘looped behaviour first’.
I agree, emotional well being fir ourself first. Then we can be present. Before I realized this concept I would excape being present and just wait for emotions and behavior to pass but being present helps in also learning to move through the emotions and not end up burying them for an adult crisis later in life.
Old video I know. But had to stop before getting to the end to point out JP is the only phycologist out of the two of them l. Gabor is a physician, a medical doctor, a GP as we call them in UK - general practitioner of medicine.
This is where I feel I have to take anything Gabor says with a pinch of salt as a lot of what he says is conjecture and anecdotal, and seemingly not based on empirical scientific methods.
That's not to say Gabor is wrong or giving bad advice just that to me it seems less grounded in science and more in gut intuition and personal experience - which often leads to a lack of objectivity.
I also don't like the way Gabor goes out of his way to criticize JP and attack him because he doesn't like to be compared to him and seemingly takes it as an insult. Whereas JP to my knowledge hasn't even really commented on Gabor.
Gabor's advice and philosophy seem grounded in the idea of a shared trauma that the world is suffering from, and he might have a point...
But that's just the reality of existence. Trying to think you'll ever overcome that is a childish pipe dream - life is brutal even when it goes well. JP offers advice on how to cope with that Gabor just seems to try and paint a pretty picture of how we could be if we lived in a fairytale.
We have to remember that GM talks the talk but didn't walk the walk. He was absent with his children and workaholic whereas JP didn't.
which is why
JP’s kids are involved with his work today and they are a united family. GM’s wife said she should have left him than…
From what I can see JP’s parenting did work for them.
It's a combination of modelling regulation giving time out for antisocial disruptive behaviour as well as plenty of love and presence.
I am a mother of two teens and our kids got all the above and it worked well.
Fully agree. They’re talking past each other. I’ve read “The Myth of Normal” and “12 Rules for Life,” and I see a lot of value in both. In fact, they may be looking at the similar things, but they’re really doing so from different angles. Mate is looking at life through the lens of trauma, while Peterson assumes that we are well-balanced, self-regulated adults who have worked through our trauma. This may be an oversight on his part, but it’s an important distinction nonetheless.
Thank you, i like your take on things and that you didn’t pine them against each other.
I would love to see them interact directly. I find both of them highly reasonable and intelligent and could figure out some great balance between each other.
I'd love to see that as well! It could be the exact dialectic we need to move the fields of child psychology and trauma therapy forward
We need that debate!
Gabor Maté is not a Psychologist, he is a Physician or MD.
Thanks for the clarification Maximus
Gabor has greater understanding of root causes by the System that affects immature individuals.
Jordan is agent of Capitalist individualistic system that brought us to this mess (individual responsibility cannot fix the system that creates the problems). Trust in Capitalism is the lowest & now recognised by the world majority as more damaging than useful.
I think JP has been misrepresented again.
You're making a very good point here which resonates.
Actually, you're making many points.
Thanks for sharing your view, Josh.
I think that there are no perfect parents. We see ourselves in the behaviours of our kids... especially in those behaviours that trigger us most. Or, a more accurate observation might be that some core beliefs are challenged by some of their behaviours.
And... by going though may of the comments on this video the following pops up in my mind: "You will always find the evidence for what you choose to believe" (which is also valid for me :P)
Precondition the children to deal with it….and not to act out. There’s a lot stressful situations in life.
Mate likes fighting people made of straw. First JP did not say he yelled at his son and told him to leave, he walked with him to the stairs then explained to him to sit down and come back when he can show his emotions in a non violent way. JP actually doesn't say to isolate the child just because of showing rage, but because the child in the situation he talks about is throwing a violent tantrum in the kitchen around his baby sister, which is not physically safe, and is not a good emotional environment for the baby. The lesson is to show your negative emotions in a way that is not disrespectful of the others around you.
For a child who observes a parent modelling emotional regulation, doesn't necessarily understand HOW it's done. We need to teach explicit skills. Both cognitive and somatic techniques can be used. Some kids might use punching a pillow (to safely diffuse anger) some might prefer applying thoughts to their predicament (I'm angry my toy broke but I have other toys I like better so it's not so bad) My point is, there are explicit tools used in the concept of emotional regulation and they need to be taught explicitly with patience and repetition .
Love what you are saying. Where can I learn more?
In my opinion, Mate and Petersen just have different approaches on how to raise children properly. Matè's approach is more passive while Petersen's is more active. One is not better than the other. It is the discerning parent who can tell which approach works best for each of his/her children and dispense it appropriately.
The most important job in the world is for responsible parents to raise children to be assets to society….a tall order for those who take it on.
Child rearing is difficult and complex. There is no one size fits all and good parenting adapts to the child(s) as an individual. I cant use the type of discipline Gabre Mate promotes for everything and the same for Jordan Peterson. Emontions are natural, however nobody wants to be around someone who has very little control over their emotions and acts on impulse. Men and women, boys and girls need emotional discipline in order to achieve greatness. It doesnt mean you cant cry but after your done you pick yourself up and keep it moving because the reality is emotions are fleeting.
Not all emotions are fleeting. It’s important that we adults understand how the individual child understands things. They may not feel deeply loved despite us asserting we do. They learn through what we show them, not from what we say. Many adults learn that way, too. If we show openly how we deal with our own emotions, children will pick that up.
A psychologist isn’t a coach, people have to find there own doors not be indicated what door to take
What is that at 2:58 on the left side.
Also 0:48
Meh. One child required the Peterson way. One child required the Gabor way. They both turned out happy successful persons. Apples and Oranges. Both are delicious. Know your child. Then stick to a plan and strategy. I have to say though I incorporated more Peterson into my Gabor child then the other way around. Just facts.
Agreed. A one-size approach to the complexity of raising a human is a limited approach. Unfortunately people, especially subject matter experts, look for and promote simplified, general recommendations which create ideological divisions such as this one
EXACTLY! Works for adults too. Different sicknesses require different cures. People who are directionless = Peterson approach. People who are traumatized = Trauma approach. I listen to both and they address different problems. I'm a Psychologist now and I find myself agreeing with Jordan way more than Mate, because Jordan actually knows the literature, while Mate seems like he's read Freud and "The Body Keeps the Score". He's very limited.
Gabo Mate was saying, what you are trying to say, to be open to fell and responding to the child need etc
Yes I think Jordan and Gabor share that same sentiment, of responding to the individual need of the child and to also signal to a child when their behavior isn't appropriate so they won't be shunned by other children or adults.
Can someone explain how do you reason with a 2 year old acting out? According to JP or GM? i do not think any of them has the answer to that.
"All You Need is Love" JW Lennon
You just bare the argument against ANY advice, self help book or success guru. There's no "one way to fix all", but it's good to listen and learn to all points of view to educate yourself, apply knowledge and become wiser.. And of course use your own instincts!
Gabor isn't a psychologist
He's a medical professional who is speaking using scientific reseaech in the field. What research is JP using for promoting emotional suppression as positive ?
Jeez you waffle. How about actually addressing the point you are trying to make! This is youtube, not some college lecture. Don't lead up to your point, state it, explain it, conclude it. Video done. You're welcome.
Ha, so Gabor advocates that a child raging in a supermarket should be an acceptable emotion, but Peterson feeling rage is unacceptable.
Show images of the interesting debate between JP and GM on social media , their posts if even not towards each other, the last video of GM talking on the subject that I have seen was 2 years old , is this a 2 years old reupload ? Would be better to have some images otherwise this is a podcast not a video
off subject but looks like orbs on the left of this guy wow
Peterson's child had facial plastic surgery. symptom of something.
Jp is taken totally out of context and Gabor Mates I think knows that he is taking him out of context.
Isolation causes trauma!!!!!!!! We are wired for connection period.
In the context of not providing an explanation that can be understood, yes any punishment can contribute to trauma. Authoritative (discipline with explanation) parenting is suggested to be best in research of outcomes for the child. Authoritarian, permissive, or uninvolved are suggested to have more negative outcomes. Not period, because science is always growing, but my sentence and paragraph are over.
Why are there so many white little orbs around you? Are they reflections from outside or?
It seems to me that gabor has something against Jordan. His criticism is valid and there may be something to it but I've seen gabor refer to Jordans fans as acolytes, and generalising that Jordan and his fans have a lot of repressed rage. These comments put me off gabor quite a lot which is a shame. Also jordan balanced being a professor at top level universities and a clinical psychologist with also being a present father and husband. While gabor was not present for his children (which he openly admits to). Jordans spouse love him deeply and are all well balanced individuals. The two should have a debate about it
I'd love to see a debate between JP and GM! Hopefully it wouldn't devolve into a 5-hour discussion about semantics like his (JP's) debate with Sam Harris did. I also agree that Gabor has a pretty strong bias and is very convicted in his beliefs...which is often what makes a teacher / influencer a great source of information. The strong belief appeals to our attention and it's our job (I believe) to take the info in and see how it applies to our life.
Also, while JP seems to have had a better relationship with his wife and children than GM, that doesn't necessarily invalidate Gabor's ideas. There are many cases where the architect or supporter of an idea was not all that good at applying it to themselves. It's tempting to call them a hypocrite or we can just call them a human ;)
@@joshgranerhealth yeah I don't really have a problem with Gabor's criticism of JPs ideas. That's fair game and an essential part of freedom of thought. It's more his categorising the people who follow JP as acolytes and generalising that we all have repressed anger issues. Insinuating that this is the reason that we're attracted to JP as a teacher. The only credit he gave jordan was that he is bright and a good speaker. Personally I find this to be a vast under-estimation and makes me think Gabor is being slightly ignorant of the deeper parts of Jordans teaching. Seems to me like Gabor has been swept up in the vilification of JP which I can't help but feel a bit upset about considering how much jordan genuinely cares about people's wellbeing
@@jsyvret472, yeah I get that...thanks for clarifying. I think most critics of JP are willfully ignorant of his actual message which is evident in all their complaints. All movements need a someone to hate and a scapegoat, and JP stepped right in their crosshairs. While he's definitely had his health / emotional challenges from the fallout of all this attention I have to say the way he's navigating it is inspiring. I think it sends a message to anyone who is paying attention that going though a dark night of the soul is not only survivable but might even be necessary for self-actualization.
Gabor is jealous of Peterson? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Made my day. He is a world renouned specialist, an author of several SMART books, not 600 pages of word salad, his books have been translated into over 30 languages. I mean cmon, he doesn't need a bunch of incels on his side to feel good.
@Jekaterina Tšernõšova firstly, no one here has claimed Gabor is jealous of jordan so you clearly haven't read the comments with any care. Secondly my arguments are all well considered and calmly stated while you seem to have gone straight to a mocking tone and personal insults. The Incel comment is obviously something you have picked up second hand because anyone who has actually followed JP knows his actual stance on incels. These points have left me wondering why your getting involved in discussions you clearly know nothing about?
Thankyou. Im concerned that Gabor maybe trying to put people off Jordan . But I would encourage everyone to read and listen to both and then listen to your own gut instincts for thr final opinion
I don't think he's trying to put anybody off anybody. He's critiquing an academic in his ideas, and his critiques are built on his specialty as a doctor.
@@politereminder6284 oh thats good. Like a literature review. Using exact quotes, referencing and critically evaluating. It didnt come across like that though. But if he did that then i would find it more appropiate
@@politereminder6284 gabor is a GP.... peteron is a psychology professor
@@user-scorpiara Gabor Mate , as much as he's a GP, has written books about the connection between body and mind. His work is trauma research and his main thesis, based on that research is that emotion suppression is extremely unhealthy. Mate has plenty of good to say about Peterson, but he critiques him on the issue of emotion suppression, because that IS Mate's specialty as a doctor.
Let's not diminish his work and his research. It is significant. Let's not pretend that Peterson's specialty somehow trumps Gabor's in this field. It doesn't. Also, the research results side with Mate, not with Peterson. Peterson speaks on this particular issue from his ideology, not from the research. The research is against him, and that's what Mate is critiquing.
@@user-scorpiara I've never read Peterson, but this critique of him makes me curious to read his 12rules. I'm not in the least bit put off by this.
dr. Gabor Mate is not a psychologist. He is a medical doctor. He is not trained as a psychiatrist not is he a psychologist pr other mental health trained professional.
this is not an argument
1)What is your point?
2) based on what psychological research is Peterson promoting suppression of feelings?
1) So JP sometimes should sit down himself till he calms down. Ok, he is usually sitting during talkshows.
2) I do not believe you have to undersand literally what he said about an angry child. Something is just missing from this over citited sentence of him.
Hey bud
Peterson’s takes on disciplining a child is terrible bud.
In all contexts.
Isolating. Never. Works.
(Assuming there is no diagnosed condition of the child)
I sensed something wrong about Gabor before even paying much attention to him dissing Jordan in regards to raising 2-year-olds. Now I assume Gabor's now multiple attacks on Jordan is largely based on envy of fame, age-related dementia, and probably then some.
I feel like he's trying to make just about everybody out to be poor helpless victims, including even Jordan Peterson out of all people. It's ridiculous. I bought Gabor's "Wisdom of trauma" kit about 2 years ago for about 160 US$ and felt something was wrong but couldn't put it in words. Now I get it. I was being coddled like a 2-year-old, but I'm a grown ass man (31 now). My grandparents didn't even talk to me like that when I was that age, so of course I felt offended, like I was being attacked, by Gabor and his guests a lot of who were fucking pig-armed goblins.
Jordan on the other hand, who I became well aquainted with fall 2021, has been like a universal teacher, principle, that I've waited for ever since I was 13, going through hell at school and to some extent at home. For Gabor to diss him on such loose grounds, I find both upsetting and laughable. I ain't heard any response about this from Jordan yet. Perhaps it's beneath him, he sure doesn't need to reply. But now that Gabor started the fight, Jordan's well warranted in a response. He sure would keep it civil.
And also, Jordan was a whole lot more present with his kids growing up than Gabor was, and as of now, Jordan's adult children are much more happy with him as a father than Gabor's kids are. Gabor better take a look at himself first.
All good points!
I think it is very accurately said!
Let’s see..
Dr Peterson explains precise situation with his son Julian. They have very strong family bond and Julian loves his father.
Dr. Mate was never there for his own children and his sons were full of rage because their father was never there for them.
When Daniel started with his father project “HELLO AGAIN”, his brother Aaron reacted with dose of sarcasm.
So yeah, Dr Mate has definitley more credibility. Nope.
Where there is love there is no sarcasm and yet sarcasm is a coping mechanism so I sympathize with both boys. Yet love is hard to grasp these days....very complicated :)
Jordan Peterson is being taken out of context, most likely on purpose.
Yeah, he's been a big target for a lot of people the past 4-5 years or so. This is the problem with gaining notoriety...there's always someone who will take your words out of context to fit their own agenda...which is one of the reasons I hope my channel stays relatively small. I would actually love to see a candid discussion between Gabor and Jordan.
There’s a lot of points where jp’s advice is to just suppress emotions - if you listen a bit more carefully - doesn’t offer any reason why, this is just one of the talking points..
JP represents old school psychology that disregards early childhood trauma..