When you start to lower the toss, you should realize that the rhythm and timing of the serve need to change. Players who toss out of their reach will need to slow the racket down at some point during the swing to wait for the ball to arrive. This is a rhythm killer for the serve and a major power loss. As you work on lowering the toss, the arms will need to stay much closer together to keep the swing going for the new toss, and in keeping the rhythm of the swing you will gain significant power. So give yourself less time to swing with a lower toss but more time to hit the ball, and you will find yourself hitting a more fluid and powerful ball. Here are the numbers. Notice that within just a few feet how quickly the speed of the ball increases. The biggest servers in the game all hit the ball within inches of the peak. Roscoe Tanner / Andy Roddick / Sam Groth / Nick Kyrgios to name just a few. Please don’t say toss to your contact point makes it more difficult. Please look up Vic Braden on the roll of the toss!! 0.5 ft = 3.87 mph 1 ft = 5.47 mph 1.5 ft = 6.70 mph 2ft= 7.73 mph 2.5 ft = 8.64 mph 3 ft = 9.47 mph 3.5ft= 10.23 mph 4 ft = 10.94 mph 4.5 ft = 11.60 mph 5 ft = 12.23 mph 5.5 ft = 12.82 mph 6 ft = 13.39 mph
Thanks for your comments and contribution to the video. I know all the Vic Braden theories, facts and figures, as I worked with him in several capacities for 7 years. Some of the best servers have indeed hit the ball at the apex of the toss...but only a few. The idea that you have more time when the toss is low is something I challenged Vic with for years. Tennis players hit balls that are in motion...that is what we do, so playing a ball that is descending from a placement that we control is not as difficult as you imply. If hitting the ball at the apex was the ideal, then why are 98% of all ATP and 99% of WTA playing the ball 24 inches (on average) below the apex? Check out this video to see many examples: ua-cam.com/video/iX3UUUAu5zE/v-deo.htmlsi=d5ryMc353q4-ss17. Everyone is different, and the low toss works for some, but not most. Don't you think these pros have experimented with their toss height and resulting performance? Why are the best players in the world consistently placing the ball higher? I had the opportunity to train with Kevin Curren for a couple days back when he was in top form in 1987. HIs serve was amazing...he actually hit the ball as it was rising! But he also mentioned that it was very difficult to master. But the bottom line is everyone is different. It is important to develop sound fundamentals and allow each student to find their natural style, another thing that Vic and I discussed numerous times.
Yesterday I spent 5 hours with Aryna Sabalenka's technique coach. (My interview with him will be posted here on the channel next week.) Certainly we both agree her toss is higher than ideal, and he working on getting it lowered. But you can't argue with 67% first serve percentage and no double faults in the AO final! @@jimklein6958
The reason MANY pro players have tosses that are significantly out of their reach is they have been poorly coached their entire careers. Yes, you always have the exception to the rule. But when coaching recreational players we NEED to give them the simplest most efficient way to improve. I have studied Curren serve bc of how efficient it was and would disagree that he hits it on the way up. Many believed Tanner hit the ball on the rise as well but Vic proved that to be false also. Love the conversation!!
Hi and thanks for the great question. There are a variety of styles and there is no completely "right" or "wrong" answer. Some players are more front foot/leg dominant, and others more back foot/ leg. Me? I like players to develop their serve with both legs working equally. Any changes will come as a style is discovered...what is most comfortable? When in doubt, balance the workload and stay in alignment! Best, John
John, why is Roger's left knee slightly fwd into the court during the load and Felix has his knee pointing aft in the load? I was told to have the knees fwd into the court but I also used the platform stance
HI Thomas, Thanks for the great question. The knees are functionally levers, and will always flex in the direction where the feet are pointed. So the position(s) of the feet are the simple reason, and there are a variety of stances (positions of the feet) among all players at all levels. In the case of Felix, his lower body (feet, knees, hips, etc.) are rotated 90 degrees from his target line, thus he has more degrees of rotation to contact. Rodger has less rotation, but has a strong shoulder over shoulder action.
Misaligned feet=ankles=knees... = inefficient stresses = joint & muscle issues. Hello injuries! Great analysis...but now we have to learn how to coordinate all, lol! Thanks, John!
Great video. Federer originally injured his knee while giving his son a bath. John, is there an optimum way to lower the tossing arm that is synchronized with the dropping of the racket tip instead of keeping the tossing arm up too long thus impeding power.
Hi, yes there absolutely is! And this is one of the most mis-understood concepts on the serve!. I will produce a video that presents how to synchronize this movement. Best, John
No, actually the S-curve is more from a side of the body view where the glutes are pushing outward. The hip coming forward is another possible issue when combined with the S-curve. Let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John
Hi Jon, isn’t the “power x” just a function of keeping the left arm tucked a bit longer after contact? It looks like both Roger and Felix would have the power x if they kept the left arm tucked instead of moving it to the left on landing.
Thanks for the great question. The "power x" is an over-exaggeration and unnatural position and movement of the non-dominant arm. In the case of JJ, his left arm continues to move to the right as the right arm comes across, moving to the left. Both of these movements are completely unnecessary, and do nothing to improve his serve. The swing movement across the body is likely to become problem...it certainly would be for recreational players.
@@PerformancePlusTennisthanks for the reply Jon, that makes sense. I’ve seen coaches from another system of player development on UA-cam recommend finishing in the “power x” as a way to keep from over-rotating. The way JJ finishes has always looked a bit strange to me though
@@dwienner4 Hi David, The "Power X" advocate here on UA-cam does not understand what is really happening with the tossing arm tuck, etc. and how it works to develop the ideal power and control. That piece of information is rarely mentioned or understood.Best, John
This is probably the most interesting service potion that I have seen. But I have a question: how come Felix Auger Aliassime has problems with his serve from time to time if his motion is so close to optimal ?
Hi Charles, Thanks for the great question. I think in the case of Felix, it is overall confidence and self belief...not just his serve. He has fallen from #6 to #17 in a year...quite surprising given his talent and experience on tour. I am not a big fan of Tony Nadal...I think he got lucky to have Rafa as his nephew.
@@PerformancePlusTennis I saw JJ Wolf wear a black loves matter T-shirt so in lieu of that I am noted it. I mean when black lives matter was rioting and destroying 49 out 50 major metropolitan in the United States and was assaulting our police officers I think it should be mentioned.
When you start to lower the toss, you should realize that the rhythm and timing of the serve need to change. Players who toss out of their reach will need to slow the racket down at some point during the swing to wait for the ball to arrive. This is a rhythm killer for the serve and a major power loss. As you work on lowering the toss, the arms will need to stay much closer together to keep the swing going for the new toss, and in keeping the rhythm of the swing you will gain significant power.
So give yourself less time to swing with a lower toss but more time to hit the ball, and you will find yourself hitting a more fluid and powerful ball.
Here are the numbers. Notice that within just a few feet how quickly the speed of the ball increases. The biggest servers in the game all hit the ball within inches of the peak. Roscoe Tanner / Andy Roddick / Sam Groth / Nick Kyrgios to name just a few. Please don’t say toss to your contact point makes it more difficult. Please look up Vic Braden on the roll of the toss!!
0.5 ft = 3.87 mph
1 ft = 5.47 mph
1.5 ft = 6.70 mph
2ft= 7.73 mph
2.5 ft = 8.64 mph
3 ft = 9.47 mph
3.5ft= 10.23 mph
4 ft = 10.94 mph
4.5 ft = 11.60 mph
5 ft = 12.23 mph
5.5 ft = 12.82 mph
6 ft = 13.39 mph
Thanks for your comments and contribution to the video. I know all the Vic Braden theories, facts and figures, as I worked with him in several capacities for 7 years. Some of the best servers have indeed hit the ball at the apex of the toss...but only a few. The idea that you have more time when the toss is low is something I challenged Vic with for years. Tennis players hit balls that are in motion...that is what we do, so playing a ball that is descending from a placement that we control is not as difficult as you imply. If hitting the ball at the apex was the ideal, then why are 98% of all ATP and 99% of WTA playing the ball 24 inches (on average) below the apex? Check out this video to see many examples: ua-cam.com/video/iX3UUUAu5zE/v-deo.htmlsi=d5ryMc353q4-ss17. Everyone is different, and the low toss works for some, but not most. Don't you think these pros have experimented with their toss height and resulting performance? Why are the best players in the world consistently placing the ball higher? I had the opportunity to train with Kevin Curren for a couple days back when he was in top form in 1987. HIs serve was amazing...he actually hit the ball as it was rising! But he also mentioned that it was very difficult to master. But the bottom line is everyone is different. It is important to develop sound fundamentals and allow each student to find their natural style, another thing that Vic and I discussed numerous times.
@@PerformancePlusTennis interesting.
Yesterday I spent 5 hours with Aryna Sabalenka's technique coach. (My interview with him will be posted here on the channel next week.) Certainly we both agree her toss is higher than ideal, and he working on getting it lowered. But you can't argue with 67% first serve percentage and no double faults in the AO final! @@jimklein6958
The reason MANY pro players have tosses that are significantly out of their reach is they have been poorly coached their entire careers. Yes, you always have the exception to the rule. But when coaching recreational players we NEED to give them the simplest most efficient way to improve. I have studied Curren serve bc of how efficient it was and would disagree that he hits it on the way up. Many believed Tanner hit the ball on the rise as well but Vic proved that to be false also. Love the conversation!!
Since you spent a good amount time with Vic, I’m sure we would agree more than disagree.
Interesting that I haven’t heard that Wolf has had any injuries from his serve.
Funny...
That's exactly who Ryan Levy from 2 minute tennis tells people you should copy.
Hi Ronnie, You should take an objective look at the movement patterns of the best servers and decide for yourself. Kindly, John
Hey John.. Great Video! By the way, was wondering if you knew where Iain was? Thanks!
I do know where Iain is. Please contact me through this link and I will provide you with details: performanceplustennis.com/contact-us/. Thanks, John
Hi John...can you help us with sequence of weight transfer ?...I've heard we should have more weight on back leg as we drive up to contact...thanks
Hi and thanks for the great question. There are a variety of styles and there is no completely "right" or "wrong" answer. Some players are more front foot/leg dominant, and others more back foot/ leg. Me? I like players to develop their serve with both legs working equally. Any changes will come as a style is discovered...what is most comfortable? When in doubt, balance the workload and stay in alignment! Best, John
Above all, don't copy Wolf's haircut.
I would take his hair style over his serve technique!
John, why is Roger's left knee slightly fwd into the court during the load and Felix has his knee pointing aft in the load? I was told to have the knees fwd into the court but I also used the platform stance
HI Thomas, Thanks for the great question. The knees are functionally levers, and will always flex in the direction where the feet are pointed. So the position(s) of the feet are the simple reason, and there are a variety of stances (positions of the feet) among all players at all levels. In the case of Felix, his lower body (feet, knees, hips, etc.) are rotated 90 degrees from his target line, thus he has more degrees of rotation to contact. Rodger has less rotation, but has a strong shoulder over shoulder action.
Can you analyze Rybakina’s serve? Thanks 🙏
Sure, I will add the to the list. Thanks!
Misaligned feet=ankles=knees... = inefficient stresses = joint & muscle issues. Hello injuries! Great analysis...but now we have to learn how to coordinate all, lol! Thanks, John!
Hi JeeBee, great to hear from you and receive your professional viewpoint! Thanks, John
Great video. Federer originally injured his knee while giving his son a bath. John, is there an optimum way to lower the tossing arm that is synchronized with the dropping of the racket tip instead of keeping the tossing arm up too long thus impeding power.
Hi, yes there absolutely is! And this is one of the most mis-understood concepts on the serve!. I will produce a video that presents how to synchronize this movement. Best, John
Is the S shape in JJ serve due to his hip moving into the court? Thanks
No, actually the S-curve is more from a side of the body view where the glutes are pushing outward. The hip coming forward is another possible issue when combined with the S-curve. Let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis pushing outward as if he is about to squat?
@@bournejason66 Exactly!
Hi Jon, isn’t the “power x” just a function of keeping the left arm tucked a bit longer after contact? It looks like both Roger and Felix would have the power x if they kept the left arm tucked instead of moving it to the left on landing.
The right arm finishing path is quite different between the two.
Thanks for the great question. The "power x" is an over-exaggeration and unnatural position and movement of the non-dominant arm. In the case of JJ, his left arm continues to move to the right as the right arm comes across, moving to the left. Both of these movements are completely unnecessary, and do nothing to improve his serve. The swing movement across the body is likely to become problem...it certainly would be for recreational players.
@@PerformancePlusTennisthanks for the reply Jon, that makes sense. I’ve seen coaches from another system of player development on UA-cam recommend finishing in the “power x” as a way to keep from over-rotating. The way JJ finishes has always looked a bit strange to me though
@@dwienner4 Hi David, The "Power X" advocate here on UA-cam does not understand what is really happening with the tossing arm tuck, etc. and how it works to develop the ideal power and control. That piece of information is rarely mentioned or understood.Best, John
@@PerformancePlusTennis you don’t think Ryan understands what the non dominant is doing?
This is probably the most interesting service potion that I have seen. But I have a question: how come Felix Auger Aliassime has problems with his serve from time to time if his motion is so close to optimal ?
Because he’s not a machine. Even Sampras and Federer double faulted from time to time.
Hi Charles, Thanks for the great question. I think in the case of Felix, it is overall confidence and self belief...not just his serve. He has fallen from #6 to #17 in a year...quite surprising given his talent and experience on tour. I am not a big fan of Tony Nadal...I think he got lucky to have Rafa as his nephew.
Ok? Ok?
?
Oh this guy another tennis pro supporting Black Lives Matter.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here, and your comment is not relevant to the video...please explain.
@@PerformancePlusTennis say ? it's actually not what I am trying to say it's what he has demonstrated. Just noting it as it has to be noted.
@@williamsannuto8239 Who demonstrated what? I don't follow this. Where is the comment or what he demonstrated? Thanks.
@@PerformancePlusTennis I saw JJ Wolf wear a black loves matter T-shirt so in lieu of that I am noted it. I mean when black lives matter was rioting and destroying 49 out 50 major metropolitan in the United States and was assaulting our police officers I think it should be mentioned.
@@williamsannuto8239 Ok, I now understand. Thanks!