This is super. One thing re the toss that you didn't mention is that, relative to the pancake-type serve, the toss position is presumably a foot or two to the left? With a linear service motion we can hit the ball straight ahead with the ball coming past the ear, almost like a cricket bowler. But with a Continental grip, even with pronation, the arm needs to be angled away from the body for the face to be directed at the service box. Pro players may lean away to compensate for this. But if you are a rec player converting from a linear path serve then even if your old toss was super-reliable it might have been between you and the service box. But as Federer's serve clearly showed, the toss action for the high-level serve is nearly perpendicular to that, off to the side (the left, for the right-handed player). So even if your toss was excellent before, you're going to need to change it significantly.
Note, as Roger’s ball toss arm is slightly accelerating upward in such a manner that allows the tennis ball to float out of his hand upon release, the racquet arm is in sync! Yes, in sync right up to the point of release of the ball. Smooth! I have watched a lot of internet coaches leaving the racquet behind, much lower, requiring the coaches to use more muscle strength to get the racquet into the supposed ‘trophy’ position. As a physics instructor, I think it is important to understand the forces acting on an object, and the resultant motion of the object as a result of the applied forces. The forces applied to the racquet are by the hand…the gripping hand. Remove the hand and the racquet falls to the court surface! The forces applied to a tennis racquet by the hand are applied at the grip. The other force being applied is gravity. The video indicates that the server’s objective is to increase racquet head speed up until the point of contact; either max speed or still accelerating at contact with the tennis ball. The path of the tip of the racquet best be a smooth circular path, so says the video! Not disagreeing. The tip of the racquet was traced and appears on screen. How does the student get the racquet tip to move in such a manner, while keeping the racquet face pointing in the various directions mentioned during the serving motion? Question. Was Roger’s racquet hand traced? Definitely a smooth motion, with a relaxed grip, but definitely not a circular path. Other body part moves aside! From a physics perspective, the hand is applying a force to the handle of the racquet, the racquet being a first-class lever, when held with a loose grip and flexible wrist. Meaning the racquet tip is being rotated around the center of gravity, the fulcrum of the racquet relative to the position of the hand. Regardless of the position of Roger’s hand, gravity is also acting straight down on the racquets center of gravity. Given a loose grip and relaxed wrist, the coaching instructions for arm, hand, elbow and other body part movements is very different from the racquet tip swing path. I remember my first lessons, 50 years ago, when I was instructed to make a big sweeping motion with my wooden racquet. Duh! I remember some forehand lessons within the last ten years, that had me concentrating on getting the racquet into distinct positions, step-by-step. Duh! Jerky! Point: With a smooth relaxed movement of the hand gripping the racquet, the racquet will do its thing! I suggest, upon close observation, Roger floats his racquet up until the release of the tennis ball by the tossing arm. Upon toss release, a shoulder tilt begins as his ball arm continues upward. His knees start bending. His back arches. Because of how high Roger has floated his racquet, and his changed body posture, when Roger begins to bend his racquet arm elbow, the racquet literally drops behind his back, knocking off the imaginary party hat. Gravity is applying a downward force on the center of gravity of the racquet. So smooth. So relaxed. As his hand continues to move towards his ear, and his elbow comes in, and the butt of the racquet point towards the ball…his forearm is torqued into position that totally resembles Steph Curry’s shooting position. No intentional muscular anti-pronation required! At this point, the racquet head is still, further away from his ear than his hand. Why? The force applied by the hand to the racquet handle around the fulcrum of the racquet is leaving the racquet tip further to the outside. The lag of the racquet tip torques the forearm. Hmm! No muscular anti-pronation required! Just torque applied by the racquet to the relaxed forearm. Balderdash you say! The above does not apply to a beginner serving in slow motion. However, the relaxed lightning-fast accelerations by a professional tennis player, results in appreciable angular, circular, and linear momentum. Professional tennis players are cracking a whip, all the while changing body position. When the hand and elbow accelerated the grip of the racquet inward, the racquet head lag will result in anti-pronation. Angular momentum around the center of mass! Yes, the racquet tip is being whipped into a circular path. The student should understand the resultant motion, but should not be focussed on making the racquet tip follow a path. With the hand near the ear, the arm and elbow begin straightening, muscles doing their thing. The wrist remains relaxed and flexible while the Continental grip is applying an upward force on the butt of the racquet. From the anti-pronated position, the server just has to point at the contact point on the ball, 11 or 2 depending on the serve type. The muscles of shoulder and elbow engage in a simple pointing reflex! Just pointing initiates what tennis coaches call pronation. The momentum of the racquet head determines the extent of the pronation. Simple! Watch Steph Curry’s jump shot! Once Steph’s elbow starts moving upward, he points at the spot on the rim that he was focused on…pronation begins the instance the upward movement of the basketball begins, though less pronounced pronation than a tennis server’s arm. Why less pronation? Because the center of gravity of a basketball is in the center of Steph’s hand, while the center of gravity of the tennis racquet is outside the hand. The basketball leaves Steph’s hand, while the tennis racquet stays, or should stay, with the server. The kinetic energy and momentum of the racquet will result in a substantial amount of torque applied to the server’s extended arm, after contact with the tennis ball. Yup, lots of pronation, that does not have to be the result of ‘intentional’ muscle stimulation. Muscle tension decreases speed and accuracy…ask a martial artist. The contortions that occur after contact, along with what appears to be exaggerated pronation, is simply trying to stick the landing. Complex windup, complex follow through! Point: Keep the coaching simple! Point!
Never realised how huge Serena's lag is after she tosses the ball...or when she let's go of the ball. :) While back I was looking at a couple of the Next gen guys, like Carlos and Holger and was pretty surprised about their huge pause before the so called trophy pose. Their circular movement, or whatever is left from it with their abbreviated version, with that pause is something that we were never taught back in the day. I am still for the flowing circular movements in my old age since super explosive accelerations are not my thing. With this being said, they serve bombs for sure. Loved watching the process as always coach! :) Cheers and great weekend. M
Hi sir! Can I ask you about a question? I am a very agile and complete tennis player . If something where I'm most talented at is going to be tennis as my eye coordination and agility to play the ball in the tennis court is sublime but unfortunately I had to start very late in my teens (age of 16) because I came to know about tennis very late as it is absolutely unpopular in my country. So should I give a shot to for becoming a pro and taking tennis seriously. Also, should I leave high school
Do not leave high school. You can stay in school and still work very hard at your game and maybe get a college scholarship, etc. The realistic chances of you playing professionally are almost zero. Not trying to be a downer, just telling you the truth. Watch this conversation. ua-cam.com/video/7jrNxV2EUwU/v-deo.htmlsi=_DHgcryylugfaAfC
Wow, this is really helpful. For me, however, the most difficult thing is to understand the end of the motion where the racket held with a continental grip comes flat on the ball. I'm having difficult times keeping to continental through the whole motion. It seems the racket is turning by itself in my wrist and I end up on bevel #3....
Ian on an unrelated matter. You made a video on the different types of Nova racquets. I respect your opinion, so I ordered a Nova extended. It has been more than a month ago since my order. I still have yet to receive the racquet. Have you had similar problems. Also, do you know if these racquets are made in the US. Any feedback would be appreciated
Wow, no, I've never experienced that or ever heard of that happening to anybody else. Please email me so I have your info and I'll get to the bottom of it ASAP, ian@essentialtennis.com
Ian first thank you for taking the time to look into this. The order # 53030, Nova extended. It was ordered on July 9th. I also had them to string it for me. I emailed them and they said they were working on it. I wanted to try this racquet because of the good reviews you and others have given. I was hoping to get the racquet for a tournament I have on the 29th. They are now telling me it will be the 29th before I receive it.i was hoping to buy two more racquets like it. I’m not so sure now
The required circular motion has nothing to do with the face of the racket angle or grip which is done to allow pronation at the end of the swing path. This is yet another example of someone repeating cliches without any understanding of why certain biomechanics and swing paths are used. The key is to avoid the racket face being pushed by the arm extending forward and unfolding because of a low toss in front but rather throw the racket up to contact the ball at the apex of the swing path which is alway much higher.
I have spoken to tennis players who play pickleball as well and some tell me that their transitional movements when playing tennis has gotten better, but unfortunately disturbed their timing a little when doing their tennis strokes. This is however a very small number of people that I've spoken to so I'm not sure it even means anything for the big picture. So just from this maybe it can help you on the tennis court at least in one way. :) Hope you can squeeze some tennis in your schedule as well. Cheers, M
Here's how to hit a huge kick serve, step by step: ua-cam.com/video/Rfs95Fdpsz0/v-deo.html
Thanks!
Very kind of you, Hilary
This is super. One thing re the toss that you didn't mention is that, relative to the pancake-type serve, the toss position is presumably a foot or two to the left? With a linear service motion we can hit the ball straight ahead with the ball coming past the ear, almost like a cricket bowler. But with a Continental grip, even with pronation, the arm needs to be angled away from the body for the face to be directed at the service box. Pro players may lean away to compensate for this. But if you are a rec player converting from a linear path serve then even if your old toss was super-reliable it might have been between you and the service box. But as Federer's serve clearly showed, the toss action for the high-level serve is nearly perpendicular to that, off to the side (the left, for the right-handed player). So even if your toss was excellent before, you're going to need to change it significantly.
Note, as Roger’s ball toss arm is slightly accelerating upward in such a manner that allows the tennis ball to float out of his hand upon release, the racquet arm is in sync! Yes, in sync right up to the point of release of the ball. Smooth!
I have watched a lot of internet coaches leaving the racquet behind, much lower, requiring the coaches to use more muscle strength to get the racquet into the supposed ‘trophy’ position.
As a physics instructor, I think it is important to understand the forces acting on an object, and the resultant motion of the object as a result of the applied forces.
The forces applied to the racquet are by the hand…the gripping hand. Remove the hand and the racquet falls to the court surface! The forces applied to a tennis racquet by the hand are applied at the grip.
The other force being applied is gravity.
The video indicates that the server’s objective is to increase racquet head speed up until the point of contact; either max speed or still accelerating at contact with the tennis ball. The path of the tip of the racquet best be a smooth circular path, so says the video!
Not disagreeing.
The tip of the racquet was traced and appears on screen.
How does the student get the racquet tip to move in such a manner, while keeping the racquet face pointing in the various directions mentioned during the serving motion?
Question. Was Roger’s racquet hand traced? Definitely a smooth motion, with a relaxed grip, but definitely not a circular path. Other body part moves aside!
From a physics perspective, the hand is applying a force to the handle of the racquet, the racquet being a first-class lever, when held with a loose grip and flexible wrist. Meaning the racquet tip is being rotated around the center of gravity, the fulcrum of the racquet relative to the position of the hand. Regardless of the position of Roger’s hand, gravity is also acting straight down on the racquets center of gravity.
Given a loose grip and relaxed wrist, the coaching instructions for arm, hand, elbow and other body part movements is very different from the racquet tip swing path.
I remember my first lessons, 50 years ago, when I was instructed to make a big sweeping motion with my wooden racquet. Duh!
I remember some forehand lessons within the last ten years, that had me concentrating on getting the racquet into distinct positions, step-by-step. Duh! Jerky!
Point: With a smooth relaxed movement of the hand gripping the racquet, the racquet will do its thing!
I suggest, upon close observation, Roger floats his racquet up until the release of the tennis ball by the tossing arm. Upon toss release, a shoulder tilt begins as his ball arm continues upward. His knees start bending. His back arches. Because of how high Roger has floated his racquet, and his changed body posture, when Roger begins to bend his racquet arm elbow, the racquet literally drops behind his back, knocking off the imaginary party hat. Gravity is applying a downward force on the center of gravity of the racquet.
So smooth. So relaxed.
As his hand continues to move towards his ear, and his elbow comes in, and the butt of the racquet point towards the ball…his forearm is torqued into position that totally resembles Steph Curry’s shooting position. No intentional muscular anti-pronation required!
At this point, the racquet head is still, further away from his ear than his hand. Why?
The force applied by the hand to the racquet handle around the fulcrum of the racquet is leaving the racquet tip further to the outside. The lag of the racquet tip torques the forearm. Hmm! No muscular anti-pronation required! Just torque applied by the racquet to the relaxed forearm.
Balderdash you say!
The above does not apply to a beginner serving in slow motion.
However, the relaxed lightning-fast accelerations by a professional tennis player, results in appreciable angular, circular, and linear momentum. Professional tennis players are cracking a whip, all the while changing body position.
When the hand and elbow accelerated the grip of the racquet inward, the racquet head lag will result in anti-pronation. Angular momentum around the center of mass!
Yes, the racquet tip is being whipped into a circular path. The student should understand the resultant motion, but should not be focussed on making the racquet tip follow a path.
With the hand near the ear, the arm and elbow begin straightening, muscles doing their thing. The wrist remains relaxed and flexible while the Continental grip is applying an upward force on the butt of the racquet.
From the anti-pronated position, the server just has to point at the contact point on the ball, 11 or 2 depending on the serve type. The muscles of shoulder and elbow engage in a simple pointing reflex!
Just pointing initiates what tennis coaches call pronation. The momentum of the racquet head determines the extent of the pronation. Simple!
Watch Steph Curry’s jump shot! Once Steph’s elbow starts moving upward, he points at the spot on the rim that he was focused on…pronation begins the instance the upward movement of the basketball begins, though less pronounced pronation than a tennis server’s arm. Why less pronation?
Because the center of gravity of a basketball is in the center of Steph’s hand, while the center of gravity of the tennis racquet is outside the hand. The basketball leaves Steph’s hand, while the tennis racquet stays, or should stay, with the server. The kinetic energy and momentum of the racquet will result in a substantial amount of torque applied to the server’s extended arm, after contact with the tennis ball. Yup, lots of pronation, that does not have to be the result of ‘intentional’ muscle stimulation. Muscle tension decreases speed and accuracy…ask a martial artist.
The contortions that occur after contact, along with what appears to be exaggerated pronation, is simply trying to stick the landing. Complex windup, complex follow through!
Point: Keep the coaching simple! Point!
yap
Never realised how huge Serena's lag is after she tosses the ball...or when she let's go of the ball. :)
While back I was looking at a couple of the Next gen guys, like Carlos and Holger and was pretty surprised about their huge pause before the so called trophy pose. Their circular movement, or whatever is left from it with their abbreviated version, with that pause is something that we were never taught back in the day. I am still for the flowing circular movements in my old age since super explosive accelerations are not my thing. With this being said, they serve bombs for sure.
Loved watching the process as always coach! :)
Cheers and great weekend.
M
Wow! The transformation with her racquet swing is crazy. All done in just one session. Thanks Ian! Super helpful video
Happy to help!
THANKS COACH 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Hey sir. Can you send a link to that rolling tripod you use for a tablet? I am starting to do some local coaching and that looked really useful.
Thanks, Ian! Amazing video and instruction!
My pleasure!
Hi sir! Can I ask you about a question? I am a very agile and complete tennis player . If something where I'm most talented at is going to be tennis as my eye coordination and agility to play the ball in the tennis court is sublime but unfortunately I had to start very late in my teens (age of 16) because I came to know about tennis very late as it is absolutely unpopular in my country. So should I give a shot to for becoming a pro and taking tennis seriously. Also, should I leave high school
Do not leave high school. You can stay in school and still work very hard at your game and maybe get a college scholarship, etc. The realistic chances of you playing professionally are almost zero. Not trying to be a downer, just telling you the truth. Watch this conversation. ua-cam.com/video/7jrNxV2EUwU/v-deo.htmlsi=_DHgcryylugfaAfC
Wow, this is really helpful. For me, however, the most difficult thing is to understand the end of the motion where the racket held with a continental grip comes flat on the ball. I'm having difficult times keeping to continental through the whole motion. It seems the racket is turning by itself in my wrist and I end up on bevel #3....
Serve bout to go crazy
🔥
❤❤❤ Thanks Ian!
You're very welcome, hope it was helpful
6:40
Ian on an unrelated matter. You made a video on the different types of Nova racquets. I respect your opinion, so I ordered a Nova extended. It has been more than a month ago since my order. I still have yet to receive the racquet. Have you had similar problems. Also, do you know if these racquets are made in the US. Any feedback would be appreciated
Wow, no, I've never experienced that or ever heard of that happening to anybody else. Please email me so I have your info and I'll get to the bottom of it ASAP, ian@essentialtennis.com
Ian first thank you for taking the time to look into this. The order # 53030, Nova extended. It was ordered on July 9th. I also had them to string it for me. I emailed them and they said they were working on it. I wanted to try this racquet because of the good reviews you and others have given. I was hoping to get the racquet for a tournament I have on the 29th. They are now telling me it will be the 29th before I receive it.i was hoping to buy two more racquets like it. I’m not so sure now
Thanks for the email, will follow up shortly
The required circular motion has nothing to do with the face of the racket angle or grip which is done to allow pronation at the end of the swing path. This is yet another example of someone repeating cliches without any understanding of why certain biomechanics and swing paths are used. The key is to avoid the racket face being pushed by the arm extending forward and unfolding because of a low toss in front but rather throw the racket up to contact the ball at the apex of the swing path which is alway much higher.
Playing pickleball once a week has made me miss playing tennis 😢
Tennis will always be here for you 😊
I have spoken to tennis players who play pickleball as well and some tell me that their transitional movements when playing tennis has gotten better, but unfortunately disturbed their timing a little when doing their tennis strokes. This is however a very small number of people that I've spoken to so I'm not sure it even means anything for the big picture. So just from this maybe it can help you on the tennis court at least in one way. :)
Hope you can squeeze some tennis in your schedule as well.
Cheers,
M
Lewis Kenneth Wilson Lisa Taylor Anthony
Funny enough, There is a girl in the next crt as Serena Williams doing the same thing.
Good eye. That's Jelena Jankovic.
3:40