I've already made suggestions from other videos, but I think you should consider anime/manga worlds: Naruto Fullmetal Alchemist Attack on Titan Gundam (for Sci-Fi) Code Geass (Sci-Fi and alternate history) Just to name a few.
@@brokenbridge6316 That's when you can make suggestions in the comments for Sci-Fi options. One I can think of is Warhammer 40K The Horus Heresy and the history of the Primarchs.
It feels very ironic that because Robb considered Edmure incompetent, he chose not to include him in his plans. Because of this, Edmure wasn't aware of Robb's goal with invading the Westerlands, and so stopped Tywin at the Fork instead of letting him pass and potentially trapping him between Northern and Riverland forces. So Edmure won a grand victory, but he spoiled Robb's plans. But this wasn't Edmure's fault, it was Robb's, because it was Robb that had chosen to keep Edmure in the dark, because he feared Edmure would make the wrong decisions. Instead, Edmure made the wrong decision precisely *because* Robb chose to keep him in the dark.
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu. Robb's orders were direct, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly understood them. Heck, had Twyin crossed, he wouldn't learn about Stannis marching on King's landing, nor turn around fast enough to make a deal with the Tyrell's until after Joffrey and Cersei were dead.
Exactly, Edmure got the short end of the stick and did what was best for *his* land. Remember, for all he knew, Lannisters were coming to kill his people.
Facts..his execution changed tv for me. A main character can and SHOULD die, to advance the story. That said, I always wanted him to be "resurrected" somehow
Edmure wasn't incompetent, Robb just prefer Blackfish, who was more experienced, even so Edmure was the second man most powerful of Robb kingdom, he should have been informed of every decision
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu. Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them.
The number 2-5 (Blackfish, Great Jon & Rose Bolton arguably above him) commander of your army, having a decisive objective, should of course be informed what said objective is. Justice for Edmure! Also "holding a fortress (in this case Riverrun) in no world means sit there and wait 'till the enemy is knocking on the gates. Ignoring forward defenses, chokeholds etc. would just be dumb. Edmure was ordered to hold Riverrun, he held it. Can't balme him for not achieving an objective he never knew about.
Edmure had already been shown to be no great commander and incompetent during initial invasion of the riverlands as his slow response to it and sallying out to meet Jaime in battle, put riverrun in poor position that Robb had to rescue it from at speed. Robb is king in the north and of the trident, Edmure is his most powerful bannerman for sure, but militarily he is way down the list of commnders in terms of ability and why Robb couldn't trust him, to do much but follow orders.
5:12 And this, right here, was Robb's critical blunder. We naturally focus more on things like trusting the Greyjoys, not telling Edmure his plans, antagonizing the Freys, trusting the Freys again after antagonizing them, etc. But as damaging as those blunders were, accepting an independent crown for the North and Riverlands essentially doomed Robb before he made any of those other mistakes, because it removed any practical endgame for his war. Had Robb simply remained as the preeminent lord in the North/Riverlands coalition, he could have easily allied with Stannis or Renly to overwhelm the Lannisters. But declaring himself an independent king made that nearly impossible, since neither Renly nor Stannis would ever accept an alliance that didn't involve those regions bending the knee to them as eventual King of Westeros. So Robb and his allies remained eternally isolated, with no clear way to end the war even when they were winning. Furthermore, the new "realm" Robb was granted rule over was never tenable. The North alone could possibly have protected its independence, as its natural chokepoint of the Neck and Moat Cailin had already proven virtually impregnable as long as there were no dragons in the picture. However, adding on the Riverlands gave Robb's new realm a horribly vulnerable salient surrounded by numerous much stronger regions, which he could only hope to defend by continually deploying Northern forces outside of their own natural defenses to fight numerous open battles against vastly larger forces - a completely unfeasible prospect.
@@Vitiate1337 Yes, but it's clear that Renly only means that as a courtesy title, the same way the rulers of Dorne were allowed to keep calling themselves Princes after they joined the realm. The *full* line in the book is, "He (Robb) can rule in Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, *so long as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord.* King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service, those I must have."(emphasis added) That's completely different from being king of an independent realm.
@@Wolfeson28 He had no choice, he never ask for it, he never demanded it, his people crowned him king in the north and the river lords crowned him their king as well, from that moment on, his duty with his people was to achieve indenpendence, though I would imagine Robb himself would be fine in making an alliance with Stannis. Actually since the realm was split he had a good chance of winning, of course he was always the underdog, and the river lands were a weakness in the sense of defending the land from invaders, though his main goal was always to protect the north. The same could be said about Stannis, if he wasnt so stubborn and accept Robb's indenpendence, their combined forced would won the war, then Stannis still would have 5 kingdoms to rule, of course he would never accept because his duty commands otherwise, but its the same thing regarding Robb.
@@aesir1ases64 That was in great part just drunken courage out of the rage of the moment. I doubt that most of the people in the Riverlands and even many in the North really dreamed day and night about leaving the rule of the Iron Throne. Especially the North had never suffered that much under the rule of Iron Throne beside very few instances (compared to say Dorne or the Riverlands) and there are instances when the Dragonriders did cut the "rights" of the Northerners for the better of many people. Robb should have understood the realities of the borders of "his" realm and did not first and foremost trust the hardliners in his camp but listen more to those who still saw diplomacy as an option. I think it is right to say that a dram of an independent North and Riverlands was just not realistic, and Robb should have realized that. But I think in most parts he was a Northerner and did not care that much about the people in the Riverlands (although he was half a Riverlander himself).
@@Vitiate1337 Are you aware this videos is based ON THE BOOKS, right? In the books Renly specifically told Catelyn that he will rule all of Westeros. He also forces Catelyn to remain for the battle against Stannis, so she could tell Robb how he ‘deals’ with traitors and usurpers.
@@aesir1ases64 He could have promised his people "For now we pretend to be Lords. We will ally with the Baratheons, temporarily recognising their claim to the throne. We will march with them against KingsLanding, defeat the Lannisters and enact regime change. Once that is done and we Northerners have returned home, retrieved my sisters and avenged my father... THEN we proclaim independence. If King Stannis refuses to accept our independence, let him march into the North and learn why it is the Northmen who are in charge of the Winter"
Edmure's so underestimated for little to no reason, the only big examples of him proving as "incompetent" are when he's defeated by the Lannister army under Jaime, even though Jaime's army is bigger, better equipped and had been preparing for weeks before the battle took place while Edmure had to scurry together whatever troops he could that weren't being raided by Gregor. And then when he misses his shots at Hoster's funeral, where it is also implied that he missed because of his crying stopping him from being able to hold the bow still and not because he's just a big dumb idiot. His defeat of Tywin at the crossing is quite impressive, choosing to face Tywin at a river crossing, hiding ranged troops out of enemy sight and keeping himself and his best cavalry troops back so they can proactively attack or defend at any point of the battlefield quickly to achieve victory. All this might seem obvious to many of us today who play video games and watch videos on battles but in a time and place where there is no easily understood way to experience and learn military strategy and command this is really quite impressive for a man who's never lead in a war before to prepare all this in the short time it would've had to be prepared in.
Well a lord during that era was supposed to be a military commander and strategist. Every lord, especially an heir to a great house of a vast kingdom with vasalls was schooled from early childhood in warfare. With a experienced commander as Blackfish with him to take advice from I think Edmure could have done alot smarter moves. Ravens can be intercepted and shot down so writing the exact instructions would not have been the smartest move. Since it was considered common shoot down ravens to break communication and learn of the plans of their enemies. Sure he defended the river well but if an enemy breach it at one place and gets stuck is quite obvious you use the hammer and the anvil to annihilate everything inside the pocket. It's still used in warfare today and happened continuesly during ww2
@@emilpeterson7034 which is what he was doing? Did you miss the part where he ordered roose to take harrenhall thus traping tywin? Its not his fault that robb has a slightly different plan in mind.
The reason he was rightly considered incompetent is because instead of marshalling his forces at the outbreak of the war and waiting for Robb to come while carrying out guerilla action against the Lannisters, he scattered his forces all over the border foolishly thinking he could defend everything and all he got for his pains was to get his army shattered by the concentrated Lannister army and find himself in chains. He was totally inexperienced in war but he and his little friends like Marq Piper treated the war like it was a game until all of a sudden it wasn't. Its not like he didn't have experienced men to advise him. That said he might have been incompetent at war but he was w far more decent Lord than most Although taking in the vast multitude of traumatized smallfolk would weaken the defense of Riverrun in the event of a siege,he did so any way because as he said in the book _"These are my people and they are afraid"_
It always bugs me that they expected Edmure to be a mind reader and know Robb’s plan despite never being told. Like he was consciously going to make the decision to let a huge Lannister army move untouched through his and his vassals lands without some kind of indication that he should do so. Frankly, it’d be more worrying if Edmure had allowed the crossing without knowing the plan.
the riverlords were sent on their mission to reclaim their lands by order of the king and by insistence of Ser Edmure. when he left for the west Edmure was not expected to do much more than hold the castle; its obvious when you see tthat he did not have an army availablee to him. fighting was a breach of his command,. Ser ed was motivated by a bruised ego and a desire for vengeance and glory not strategic thinking.
Who would in the right mind let an army as large as Tywin's (around 20k or so) to pass across one of the best defensive positions in the Riverlands ( The Red fork) to hunt your ally's minor cavalry force (around 6k). Tywin even had more cavalry then Robb. Robb's plan of running along the coast until he tires Tywin's forces would have failed, because 1.Tywin had more Cavalry 2. Tywin could have left his infantry at strategic points or stronghold to prevent Robb's forces from turning back. This would have trapped Robb between the coast, Tywin's army and some other major castle (example the Crag)
@@ThePro-qn6wr sadly, Ser ed was not in is right mind when he launched his offensive action against Tywin. had he had the wits to see it. Tywin marching west was no threat to him while he garrisoned riverrun. outside of riverrun he is vulnerable. and Tywins force was mostly infantry. which would slow down Tywin either way. since the majority of the riverlands was burned out or picked clean Edmures action, accomplished little value. it was a risk he should not have taken. i dont think its fair to say robb would have failed, Tywin is coming to a battlefield of Robb's choosing rather than the other way around. numbersw are not everything, though they do help. but if it did happen where tywin chased Robb a lot of dominoes are up in the air to how the future would turn out. point is, Ser Edmure was ordered to hold a castle and did not have the military capability to do much else than garrison duty. calling the banners back and seeking a fight is what our poor knight did. and he did it for glory not out of a sense of strategic necessity.
The Lannister have a disadvantage. It’s hard to protect both kings landing and the western and since they are on opposite sides. Especially losing 30,000 troops in the beginning of the war. They are at a huge disadvantage. Only way was how Tywin did it, sharp diplomacy
Edmure was actually super reliable, plus the Mountain was sacking all of the Riverlands for weeks and killing scores of people, of course he'd want to kill him. Robb didn't tell him of his plan to trap the Lannisters at all
One thing that should be made more clear: Tywin marched from Harrenhal only AFTER Renly Baratheon died. It is very possible Tywin actually understood what Robb was doing (trying to lure him to the West), but with Renly dead, the Tyrells leaderless, and most importantly, Stannis besieging Storm's End (a castle so strong, it could have lasted a siege for half a year), Tywin felt confident to march West. If Stannis besieged Storm's End, he would have enough time to deal with Robb Stark in the West. If Stannis stormed the castle, he would lose a deal too many men. But Tywin knew Stannis was too seasoned to storm the castle. Tywin would've never marched back to the West so long as either Baratheon brothers were threatening King's Landing. Only when he saw that Renly was dead and Stannis preoccupied did he choose to finally leave Harrenhal.
agreed. also i think its just as likely that Tywin intended to cross the trident, but instead of marching to the west, attack the riverlands. given that Casterly Rock itself was never in any danger and that Lannisport is likely well defended, it would have been just as viable for him to annihilate the Riverlord's in battle and lay seige to some of their castles. if this had worked as planned thousands of enemy troops and likely several lords and their castles would have been neutralised. The hope obviously being to lure Robb back east. supposing that Storms End held out for another six months, this gives Tywin the perfect oppertinity to forge the Tyrell alliance, defeat the riverlord's and hopefully lure Robb back to the riverlands to deal with him. the Freys and Boltons would likely switch sides at this point and betray Robb, especially if the now allied Lannister / Tyrell force managed to defeat Stannis, or at least keep him on the back foot
@@Alexwright12 That is why I never agreed with the people who always crap on Edmure. Sure, Robb's plan was brilliant when he described it. But would it have worked exactly how he intended? A very intelligent quote from Littlefinger states that in the game of thrones sometimes the pieces refuse to make the moves you have prepared for them. What if it wasn't enough? And why should have Edmure gambled on waiting inside the walls and be starved, when he could make Tywin's life hell at a river crossing, which was VERY defensible? For all Edmure knew, Tywin would have burned the crap out of the Riverlands, whilst Robb was hundreds of miles away, unable to reinforce. Was he supposed to let his people get slaughtered just because Robb vaguely told him to 'hold Riverrun?' They were his people. Robb was definitely playing 4-D chess with everyone, but he never considered that all his allies and opponents were playing 3-D chess at most. And you cannot really win a game when you are the only one playing it...
I've sat here packing my apartment and listening to this for however long these first 5 videos have been combined. These are really good thanks I'm sure this is hard work. The only thing I'm disappointed by is that it ended lol but maybe ill check out some others from the channel.
I always thought the plot point about Robb choosing to keep Edmure in the dark about his master plan was a bit weak. Of course the plan is need-to-know, but in this instance, the plan hinged on Edmure taking a very specific action. So he needed to know. It's one of the few things I thought the show handled better, by scaling down Robb's secret plans.
Thank you for covering this in great detail. Oxcross and the campaign in the westerlands gets over looked. There's a lot of what if scenarios that make this part of the war so interesting.
True that was a very moral thing to do, but also it was very tactically brilliant of Edmure, I am actually willing to say he's better than Robb because Robb was using a force of six thousand cavalries in hostile rugged lands, which is just no good for a battle on the terms of Tywin.
@@maxtomlinson8134 Edmure was a good tactician no doubt, this video goes to show, but it also shows that Robb was simply better, smarter, at a younger age. Just because Edmure held a single battle where we won, with a heavy geographic advantage, doesn't make him better than Mr.Stark. Maybe if youre looking at this one moment in time, like comparing Edmures battle to Robbs battle happening at the same time.
@@rosshugecaulk There is no excusing topography in any situation of war, it's those who have the skills to know where to utilize their specific units best, that will effectively win battles, Edmure didn't just win, he beat Tywin who had led armies before and was quite experienced, as he fought in the war of the ninepenny kings, which was some Blackfyre revolt, and he had effectively dealt with the Ryene and Tarbak rebellion, and sacked King's landing. Robb literally was just a can crusher, he fought Jamie who's a swordsman and a former Kingsguard, nothing that impressive, plus then Robb ambushed a Lannister army led by Stafford Lannister who was just even worse than Jamie. Robb hasn't fought anyone who's ever challenging, and Edmure did it with little experience because he's talented and saved Robb's army from being destroyed.
1 - Letting the Greyjoy heir return to his father and losing the leverage on the ironborn, while the North is completely undefended from the coast 2- not telling Edmure about his plan of attracting Tywin to the Westerlands and away from Kingslanding 3 - breaking his oath to the Freys 4- Executing lord Karstark and completely losing the support of one of his biggest allies Is there anything I missed? Is there a worse military strategist in Westeros than Robb Stark?
The Freys were always opportunists and they lost faith in Robb after Blackwater. Even if Robb did keep faith with The Freys, Flaky Walder probably still would've been down with The Red Wedding.
@@gfilmer7150 Nope. Throughout the Red Wedding Walder Frey kept bringing up how Robb slighted him. He's really petty and felt personal contempt towards Robb. His son (or grandson, can't remember) confirmed this in the epilogue of ASoS, that Walder wouldn't stop bitching about it and that the Starks would pay for the humiliation. He is very prideful and he wanted to have a daughter married to a king. So I don't think he would be in for the RW if Robb kept the promise. You're conflating the Freys with the Boltons. Roose Bolton is super opportunistic and was ready to turn cloak as soon as it became advantageous.
@@Ζήνων-ζ1ι Walder would have betrayed Robb Stark anyway as soon as he felt safe to do so, the "slight" was simply Walders justification to do so, and even then as soon as the war started turning against the North Walder wouldn't have wasted his opportunity to be one the winning side. Historical note: Walder Frey is well known in universe for being a craven dishonorable asshole, during Robert's Rebellion he only showed up to answer the call of his liege lord once the Battle of the Trident (and thus the war by extension) had already been won by the Rebels, and if the Trident had instead turned in favor of the Targaryens, Walder Frey would have switched sides immediately. The literal only reason anyone in the setting put up with his bullshit was the fact he controlled the only crossing of the Trident between the north and the riverlands, if it wasn't for that he would have been stripped of his land and titles decades before the War of Five Kings
I'm really glad that a lot of people agree that Edmure wasn't nearly as incompetent as the narrative would have us believe. Robb was definitely wrong in keeping him in the dark. And although Edmure may not have had the brilliance of Robb and Brynden or Catelyn's pragmatic mind. He definitely would not make the blunders Robb and Catelyn did i.e beheading Lord Karstark and freeing Jaime Lannister.
Honestly my new favorite channel. truly fantastic work. Warhammer are always my favorite of your video's but all the fantacy videos' are amazing equally and just happy I get to see your wonderful work!
I think it's unfair to call Lord Edmure Tully incompetent cuz his battle plan was sound. He's just a little glory hungry but that's normal for his age (he's also only around 26 or sth). I'm pretty sure if he'd told Edmure the plan everything would have gone better...
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu. Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them. Plus, keeping your enemy out is a fundamental principle in warfare. Tywin would have been totally incompetent to leave Riverrun with armed men behind him, instead of besieging the castle, again, while he drove against Robb. Edmure was a tactician in the battle that he won, not looking at a wider strategy.
@@gingerbill128 Edmure wasn't ordered to stay at Riverrun, he was ordered to "hold" Riverrun, vaguely and with no additional details. He decided to seize the initiative and actively defend Riverrun in the field, and successfully used terrain as a force multiplier to repel a numerically superior army. Without prior knowledge of Robb's plan or clear instructions to remain inside the castle, this was a much better decision than letting the Lannisters pass unchallenged, either to return to the Westerlands and attack Robb's rear, or to besiege Riverrun, which would leave Edmure penned in and with limited strategic options to break the siege.
Another brilliantly fabulous and exquisitely fabulous video on one of the most decisive moments of the war. A video that should have been more correctly entitled how Edmure Tully disobeyed orders and defended the riverlands and unknowingly saved the lannister's from destruction.
@@maxtomlinson8134 No he didn't as that is a completely wrong reading of the situation. As Robb's plan was all about drawing Tywin back into the westerlands, to defend his lands under the impression that he would catch the young wolf off guard, when Robb was banking on exactly that and use it to allow him to ambush and destroy the enemy in one decisive battle.
@@wedgeantillies66 He can't ambush Tywin, it's his land he knows it better than Robb, the people living there are just gonna tell where Robb is, six thousand men on horseback are not exactly invisible, Tywin has local support.
@@maxtomlinson8134 Westerlands has been scoured clean of men and troops by Tywin for war effort and remains destroyed at Oxcross. Remaining local people and soldiers are sheltering inside castles and keeps escaping the rape and pillage of the lands. Plus as Robb's forces are detached and striking out all over the region, scattered reports would filter in, leaving Tywin confused as to where the real enemy strength was concentrated. Giving Robb element of surprise after he reconcentrates quickly when he hits him with his ambush and catch's twin's 20,000 strong army stretched out over long line of march, vulnerable to being destroyed in part or in detail with multiple strikes.
@@wedgeantillies66 Your are talking bullshit, the guy has around six thousand men large on horseback, it's gonna be pretty obvious where the army is, there wouldn't be conflicting rumors, there wouldn't be and not everyone in the countryside is hiding, some would be untouched or just tell Tywin where Robb's army is, six thousand is nothing to hide.
I only came across these recently as I subscribe to kings and generals channel which sound like same narrator. Liking the idea of looking at battles from fiction books and interesting to see in contrast to historical ones. Subscribed and enjoying it, keep it up
This was King Robb blunder here. Though he didn't know it at the time but not informing Edmure of the bigger plan cost The Young Wolf the war. If he honestly had concerns about Edmure leading capabilities, he should've gvae him clearer orders or put someone like Tytos Blackwood in charge of Riverrun's defense.
Wonderful video the troop movements they made the battle of the stone mill seem like a smaller event in the show. It sounded like they only wanted to trap the mountain in the show not twins whole army. Which would have left the starks in a better position to gather more support promisesing independence for those who helped against stannis after twins defeat.
Robb should have made Edmure aware of his plans instead he left Edmure to protect Riverrun, and when the Lannister army marched Edmure had two choice 1. Let the Lannister army March through Riverlands and plunder it in the process killing everyone they can find 2. Protect his land lords and small folk from the enemy who would kill them all
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu. Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them.
@@geoffreyedgson7875 agreed but if you think your most powerful ally is a little incompetent you must explain your plans throughly, and I say Edmure was only little incompetent because he didn't ran away from the fight, he did what is expected from a High Lord he protected his vassal lords interests, had he let Lannister army cross the red fork unchallenged they would have destroyed Riverlands throughly as vengeance for Jaime's capture. IMO if you are a leader for Multi-state army/factions like Robb then atleast make your important lords aware of the plan, he did that during battles of Green Fork and Wishpering Woods, had he not told Rosse Bolton of his plan to delay Tywin and prevent him from aiding Jaime the Northern army would have been destroyed at Green Fork since houses Karstark Tallharts etc would have preferred to fight to the end without retreating in orderly fashion like they did as per the plan
The Lannister was already doing that to the river lands for months, while Edmure hid in the castle, and he received strict and CLEAR orders to not leave the castle.
@@amardeep_singh_chauhan Exactly. Robb did not ensure his intensions and vision were thoroughly established, before departing from an ally whom could act semi-independently of his full oversight. Plus in combat (large or small scale), individuals have to be acting, never reacting; or remain passive deliberately for a larger plan. Edmure was not informed of the larger plan and he followed this fundamental tenant for war.
@@gfilmer7150 indeed. But it already gives signs that the war will turn against the Starks. What was Robb thinking by sending theon to his father; Theoretically, theon was the only thing that kept balon from attacking the North. And now Robb is like telling him:"oh balon, please. I want you to f..k me in the arse while I can't deal with you" And as for edmure...he may not be the sharpest tool around, but he's still the Lord paramount of the riverlands. Of course he's to be included in war meetings and the overall strategy. Especially since the warfront is on his territory. Robb and brynden have absolutely no right to chastise edmure for acting on circumstances he didn't know. Let alone step in to clean up the mess Robb made by refusing to honour his promise to the freys
I am in awe at how comprehensive and detailed these are. I don't think anyone can touch the level of accuracy, attention to detail, and politics of GOT. I read the books twice and I seen details here I missed. The animated map with detailed fighting groups makes understanding this stuff little bit easier. Great job. I seen the last one and was awaiting these. Thank you.
@@theawesomeman9821 yes. I love just going back and just dwell in the dialogue. I wonder how one person could write such a huge, complex, world. In that world is its own unique people, problems, languages, races, and on and on. The dialogue is just amazing. Like on here and elsewhere in print and tv, people literally talk about this like it's some parallel world. I think it's astonishing.
"General Luck" he says. The Lannisters had the luck of a leprechaun in that war. Martin is so bad writing wars and battles that he had Tywin invading the Riverlands in three weeks and taking keeps without any casualties. To put this into perspective, the Riverlands is about the size of France. The German Blitzkrieg took them six weeks. Tywin OUTPACED the Blitzkrieg!!! That's not how medieval warfare works
@@Handsome_Black cause he was. he was an excellent tactician, never loosing a battle but he was an awful strategist. everything that happened with the Freys, giving Roose Bolton enough control to throw northerners on sucide missions, not informing one of his most important commanders about his plans, sending theon back north etc. one of the best tacticians in all of westeros, also one of its worst strategists and politciains
@@ckthegreat100 Dorne was planning on backing Young Griff or Dany, so they wanted to conserve their forces. Also Doran is way too patient, they might have backed Renly but their animosity to the Tyrells made them hesitate and then whoops he's dead. Then Stannis, they probably would have backed him had he taken KL, but he didn't so they didn't.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul and Robb? I’m just saying, if you’ve been waiting literal decades to get revenge, the early stages of the WOTFK would have been perfect timing. Lannisters looked all but defeated until they allied with the Tyrells
Have you ever considered tipping your toes into Warhammer content? I would love to see this type of content for a few Warhammer 40k battles, or even Warhammer Fantasy/AoS content.
Causing a horse panic is probably one of the hardest things to do in warfare, especially if the horses are well trained. BUT, if you can pull it off, as only a few have been able to do in either history or fiction, it is DEVASTATING to any army with any reliance on cavalry or horse drawn supply wagons.
The "space opera" world I mentioned in an earlier video, especially SPACE PATROL, both the TV and radio versions, were the basis of atompunk and retro-future. From the forties to the late nineties, when interest in these shows waxed, along with interest in the culture of the fifteis, "space opera" was a derogatory term, meaning low quality , overly fantastic writing
Small correction Stannis wasn't a pretender king... he was the heir especially because Cersei's children are not legitimate, you could say smallest army of the 5 potential kings Otherwise great video
Considering they called Stannis a pretender, said he got Dragonstone because of Robert's spite, and that Ned refused to help Renly because of honor, I sense a slight bias.
It hurts to see my boy Edmure called incompetent. He was very much competent and a good leader of the Riverlands in his father's stead. Of course he was a bit naive and took too many "bad" decisions, like allowing the common folk inside Riverrun, but he did those things out of duty to defend his people. From his point of view, he tried to protect his nephew from getting surrounded in enemy territory by denying Tywin passege back to the Westerlands. It was really not his fault he did not know of Robb's strategy. He did the best thing he could with the information and forces that were present to him. And after all that "blunder", he willingly went and tried to make amends for Robb's mistake by agreeing to the Frey wedding. He was truly done dirty by everyone. He is one of the best characters, in my opinion, in the whole series, certainly one of the most honorable and dutiful.
Again.....neat new animaiton style but classic KaG is best. Thought admittedly this CGI is better than the watercolor painting style you tried with the recent Mongol video. Interested to see what is next
Are there videos going over how Lanister came to power? I know the books and show cover it but these videos have a slight jump in time. It’s a great series but feels like it’s missing important details for those who haven’t seen/read the series.
Great as always, but only one thing; Although I appreciate the time and resources you guys spend on designing those characters accurate with the books, please use the face of the actors🙏🏼 Thanks for your amazing videos again
I never knew edmure achieved such a great victory over Tywin. Perhaps it wasent in the show? In the show Robb yelled at him for defeating the mountain.
Exactly, never mentioned in the show except for Rob yelling about his plans having been ruined. I in the show thought it was about a skirmish/small battle Edmure won, but with great strategical consequences, instead it turns out it was a pretty large scale battle where he was actually very succesful.
@@MDP1702 Well, while large, the Battle of the Fords in the books was pretty indecisive. The Lannisters did not suffer that much casualties(as they were able to arrive back at KL with the Tyrells to lift the siege), yet Edmure succesfully defended the Red Fork and beat off Tywin. It's akin to the Battle of the Green Fork for the Lannisters, an indecisive tactical victory but a strategic defeat.
Edmure did everything he was ordered to. He prevented Tywin from crossing to what would seem optimal place to start sieging Riverrun. Had he not Edmures forces would be trapped in Riverrun and Robb would need to come to the rescue, against larger and better prepared force. So Edmures choosing of a location better suited to victory was a sound strategy.
@@KumeRevla Well both Stark and Lannister forces were not aware of Baratheon progress in the south, so Tywin would've most likely marched to the Rock to fight Robb. Which was a sound strategy, but Robb didn't order Edmure to allow passage for Tywins forces. Edmure prevented as I said any destruction of Riverrun and inflicted large casualties to Tywin, also unaware of Robb's strategy, Edmure prevented Tywin from stopping Robb's raid of the Rock. Robb was brilliant on battlefield, but his court skills were lacking, that's what costed his reign the most.
@@KumeRevla As we can see in this video, the series didn't potray that accurately, there it shows as if Edmure attacked a position of a part of Lannister forces, plus we don't see Robb's raid of the Rock. There it is potrayed as if the Robb's goal was just to capture and kill the Mountain. While the Lannister army wouldn't march to the west at all if they knew they were needed in the south, Tywin got the word about Stannis after his failed attempt to cross the river.
Tywin’s goal wasn’t to take Riverrun, he said he was moving West to beat Robb Stark. If Edmure knew this and were smart, he could’ve feigned a defense, conceal his real strength in Riverrun while sending a splinter force to lightly harass Tywin’s vanguard and then fake a defeat.
@@gfilmer7150 Well it is easy for us to know Tywin's intentions, but Edmure couldn't have known that. From his point of view he defended Riverrun and inflicted have casualties to Tywin. So my opinion is that Edmure didn't do anything out of order or wrong, had his orders been to allow Tywin passage, he would have done it. I mean strategy you describe is a good one, but we are allowed way more informations, then commanders in such situations would.
Stannis wasn't a pretender. He was the legitimate heir of his brother Robert, since Cerci's children were revealed to be bastards. Renly had no right to the throne so long as Stannis lived.
Yep, this series is biased. Proof of this is in how Robert is called a usurper. They also said Ned turned down Renly’s proposal because of honor and not because of Renly stealing The Iron Throne.
Who would in the right mind let an army as large as Tywin's (around 20k or so) to pass across one of the best defensive positions in the Riverlands ( The Red fork) to hunt your ally's minor cavalry force (around 6k). Tywin even had more cavalry then Robb. Robb's plan of running along the coast until he tires Tywin's forces would have failed, because 1.Tywin had more Cavalry 2. Tywin could have left his infantry at strategic points or stronghold to prevent Robb's forces from turning back. This would have trapped Robb between the coast, Tywin's army and some other major castle (example the Crag).
So really the Execution of Ned Stark, the Battles of OxCross and the Fords (along with Robb Stark razing the Westerlands), the Siege of Storm’s End, the fighting at Bitterbridge and the murder of Renly Baratheon are covered here. At this point Wizards and Warriors will cover the events of ASOIAF before the Winds of Winter comes out.
I like how many people keep saying "Robb was incompetent" as they show themselves masters of politics in some Paradox game, while talking about a story they watched. Never lived, just watched.
In most aspect they follow the books. I mean you never get these tactical details from the films, and it leads towards Robb marrying the Westerling-girl (like in the books). The Westerlings at least were a family with history and nobility (to marry her was of course stupid still). But it is not this even much more stupid version in the films where he married that dumb lowborn from across the sea (if I remember her right).
Edmure wasn't incompetent. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun and holding the fords and not letting Riverrun be besieged was arguably the best way to do it.
Tywin had no intention of sieging Riverun, and if Edmure didn't disobey his orders and take the fight to Tywin, Robb would have lost the war, far sooner.
@@maxtomlinson8134 Is it really stated in the books what was Tywin's intention? Robb assumed that Tywin would withdraw from the Riverlands back to the West, but he could have just as well tried to besiege Riverrun to make Robb withdraw from the West back to the Riverlands, after all Tywin knew that his army may be soon needed in King's Landing to defend the city.
@@faramir3466 robbs plan was to disloge Tywin from harrenhall. he could not lay seige to it because its a big castle and leaves them vulnerable to attack and the lannisters were mustering another host. Robb sent Catelyn to deal with Renly as a way to get twin to move from harrenhall since she rerfused to go back to Winterfell he sends theon as envoy to Balon recognising him as a king and theon a prince. with an agreement to be allies. and by edmures insistance he releases the riverlords to go reclaim their lands. with this understanding ser Edmure was tasked with holding Riverrun while he went west to deal with ser Stafford's host. tywin only had three options. defend the lannister held Kingslanding or defend his homeland or stay put in Harrenhal. with renly thretening the capital Tywins options become 2. now robb having destroyed the lannister host and raiding the westerlands kinda forces the option for Tywin. he moves out to defend his homeland. why not seige riverrun? he could have but well that takes time and his reinforrcing army is not coming to assist. i think its fairly logical to assume Tywins motivvation is head back into the Westerlands. if he lays seige. perhaps Bolton's men come down while they are vulnerable, building seige equipment. the battle of the fords delays Tywin and message reaches him and he heads to defend kingslanding as Renly has fallen and the tyrells have joined Joffrey. Stannis is now the biggest threat and he is on the move.
Good video . My understanding was that Rob told Edmure to wait at Riverrun , which he didn't . You are too generous to Edmure in the video. This implies he did something good and it Was Robs fault for not telling him , that's not how i read it. And Edmure's opinion is really insignificant as Rob was in charge.
Robb did not tell Edmure to "wait in Riverrun" he told Edmure to hold Riverrun and holding the fords and not letting Tywin to besiege the castle was arguably the best way to do it, so it really was Robb's fault for not telling Edmure his plan.
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Meh 😑
Why don't you people do more Sci-Fi video's. You've been doing way too many Fantasy video's. Am I the only one that notices this?
I've already made suggestions from other videos, but I think you should consider anime/manga worlds:
Naruto
Fullmetal Alchemist
Attack on Titan
Gundam (for Sci-Fi)
Code Geass (Sci-Fi and alternate history)
Just to name a few.
@@brokenbridge6316 That's when you can make suggestions in the comments for Sci-Fi options.
One I can think of is Warhammer 40K The Horus Heresy and the history of the Primarchs.
@@richardthomas9497---I've suggested Star Trek video's. At around the time of "The War Against The Dominion" and my suggestions were ignored.
It feels very ironic that because Robb considered Edmure incompetent, he chose not to include him in his plans. Because of this, Edmure wasn't aware of Robb's goal with invading the Westerlands, and so stopped Tywin at the Fork instead of letting him pass and potentially trapping him between Northern and Riverland forces.
So Edmure won a grand victory, but he spoiled Robb's plans. But this wasn't Edmure's fault, it was Robb's, because it was Robb that had chosen to keep Edmure in the dark, because he feared Edmure would make the wrong decisions. Instead, Edmure made the wrong decision precisely *because* Robb chose to keep him in the dark.
Gotta hand it to Edmure, that was a good defense
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu.
Robb's orders were direct, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly understood them. Heck, had Twyin crossed, he wouldn't learn about Stannis marching on King's landing, nor turn around fast enough to make a deal with the Tyrell's until after Joffrey and Cersei were dead.
Exactly, Edmure got the short end of the stick and did what was best for *his* land. Remember, for all he knew, Lannisters were coming to kill his people.
He told Edmure to stay and defend at Riverrun, Edmure disobeyed his orders, if he wasn't family then Edmure would've rightfully been executed.
@@geoffreyedgson7875 Robbs orders were pretty clear though, He told Edmure to stay at Riverrun, Edmure just didn't listen to his orders.
Eddard Stark's execution still hurts after all this time.That's powerful character creation and writing
Facts..his execution changed tv for me. A main character can and SHOULD die, to advance the story. That said, I always wanted him to be "resurrected" somehow
"Fortunately for Robb he was being tended by the lady Jeyne Westerling" Yeah ha...he's so fortunate...
Edmure wasn't incompetent, Robb just prefer Blackfish, who was more experienced, even so Edmure was the second man most powerful of Robb kingdom, he should have been informed of every decision
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu.
Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them.
Not his fault for not following a plan he wasn’t informed of in detail.
@@geoffreyedgson7875 thanks, i've trying to explain this simple logic to normies for the longest time
The number 2-5 (Blackfish, Great Jon & Rose Bolton arguably above him) commander of your army, having a decisive objective, should of course be informed what said objective is. Justice for Edmure!
Also "holding a fortress (in this case Riverrun) in no world means sit there and wait 'till the enemy is knocking on the gates. Ignoring forward defenses, chokeholds etc. would just be dumb. Edmure was ordered to hold Riverrun, he held it. Can't balme him for not achieving an objective he never knew about.
Edmure had already been shown to be no great commander and incompetent during initial invasion of the riverlands as his slow response to it and sallying out to meet Jaime in battle, put riverrun in poor position that Robb had to rescue it from at speed. Robb is king in the north and of the trident, Edmure is his most powerful bannerman for sure, but militarily he is way down the list of commnders in terms of ability and why Robb couldn't trust him, to do much but follow orders.
5:12 And this, right here, was Robb's critical blunder. We naturally focus more on things like trusting the Greyjoys, not telling Edmure his plans, antagonizing the Freys, trusting the Freys again after antagonizing them, etc. But as damaging as those blunders were, accepting an independent crown for the North and Riverlands essentially doomed Robb before he made any of those other mistakes, because it removed any practical endgame for his war. Had Robb simply remained as the preeminent lord in the North/Riverlands coalition, he could have easily allied with Stannis or Renly to overwhelm the Lannisters. But declaring himself an independent king made that nearly impossible, since neither Renly nor Stannis would ever accept an alliance that didn't involve those regions bending the knee to them as eventual King of Westeros. So Robb and his allies remained eternally isolated, with no clear way to end the war even when they were winning.
Furthermore, the new "realm" Robb was granted rule over was never tenable. The North alone could possibly have protected its independence, as its natural chokepoint of the Neck and Moat Cailin had already proven virtually impregnable as long as there were no dragons in the picture. However, adding on the Riverlands gave Robb's new realm a horribly vulnerable salient surrounded by numerous much stronger regions, which he could only hope to defend by continually deploying Northern forces outside of their own natural defenses to fight numerous open battles against vastly larger forces - a completely unfeasible prospect.
@@Vitiate1337 Yes, but it's clear that Renly only means that as a courtesy title, the same way the rulers of Dorne were allowed to keep calling themselves Princes after they joined the realm. The *full* line in the book is, "He (Robb) can rule in Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, *so long as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord.* King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service, those I must have."(emphasis added) That's completely different from being king of an independent realm.
@@Wolfeson28 He had no choice, he never ask for it, he never demanded it, his people crowned him king in the north and the river lords crowned him their king as well, from that moment on, his duty with his people was to achieve indenpendence, though I would imagine Robb himself would be fine in making an alliance with Stannis.
Actually since the realm was split he had a good chance of winning, of course he was always the underdog, and the river lands were a weakness in the sense of defending the land from invaders, though his main goal was always to protect the north.
The same could be said about Stannis, if he wasnt so stubborn and accept Robb's indenpendence, their combined forced would won the war, then Stannis still would have 5 kingdoms to rule, of course he would never accept because his duty commands otherwise, but its the same thing regarding Robb.
@@aesir1ases64 That was in great part just drunken courage out of the rage of the moment. I doubt that most of the people in the Riverlands and even many in the North really dreamed day and night about leaving the rule of the Iron Throne. Especially the North had never suffered that much under the rule of Iron Throne beside very few instances (compared to say Dorne or the Riverlands) and there are instances when the Dragonriders did cut the "rights" of the Northerners for the better of many people.
Robb should have understood the realities of the borders of "his" realm and did not first and foremost trust the hardliners in his camp but listen more to those who still saw diplomacy as an option. I think it is right to say that a dram of an independent North and Riverlands was just not realistic, and Robb should have realized that. But I think in most parts he was a Northerner and did not care that much about the people in the Riverlands (although he was half a Riverlander himself).
@@Vitiate1337 Are you aware this videos is based ON THE BOOKS, right? In the books Renly specifically told Catelyn that he will rule all of Westeros. He also forces Catelyn to remain for the battle against Stannis, so she could tell Robb how he ‘deals’ with traitors and usurpers.
@@aesir1ases64 He could have promised his people "For now we pretend to be Lords. We will ally with the Baratheons, temporarily recognising their claim to the throne. We will march with them against KingsLanding, defeat the Lannisters and enact regime change. Once that is done and we Northerners have returned home, retrieved my sisters and avenged my father... THEN we proclaim independence. If King Stannis refuses to accept our independence, let him march into the North and learn why it is the Northmen who are in charge of the Winter"
Edmure's so underestimated for little to no reason, the only big examples of him proving as "incompetent" are when he's defeated by the Lannister army under Jaime, even though Jaime's army is bigger, better equipped and had been preparing for weeks before the battle took place while Edmure had to scurry together whatever troops he could that weren't being raided by Gregor. And then when he misses his shots at Hoster's funeral, where it is also implied that he missed because of his crying stopping him from being able to hold the bow still and not because he's just a big dumb idiot.
His defeat of Tywin at the crossing is quite impressive, choosing to face Tywin at a river crossing, hiding ranged troops out of enemy sight and keeping himself and his best cavalry troops back so they can proactively attack or defend at any point of the battlefield quickly to achieve victory.
All this might seem obvious to many of us today who play video games and watch videos on battles but in a time and place where there is no easily understood way to experience and learn military strategy and command this is really quite impressive for a man who's never lead in a war before to prepare all this in the short time it would've had to be prepared in.
Well a lord during that era was supposed to be a military commander and strategist. Every lord, especially an heir to a great house of a vast kingdom with vasalls was schooled from early childhood in warfare. With a experienced commander as Blackfish with him to take advice from I think Edmure could have done alot smarter moves. Ravens can be intercepted and shot down so writing the exact instructions would not have been the smartest move. Since it was considered common shoot down ravens to break communication and learn of the plans of their enemies.
Sure he defended the river well but if an enemy breach it at one place and gets stuck is quite obvious you use the hammer and the anvil to annihilate everything inside the pocket. It's still used in warfare today and happened continuesly during ww2
@@emilpeterson7034 which is what he was doing? Did you miss the part where he ordered roose to take harrenhall thus traping tywin? Its not his fault that robb has a slightly different plan in mind.
The reason he was rightly considered incompetent is because instead of marshalling his forces at the outbreak of the war and waiting for Robb to come while carrying out guerilla action against the Lannisters, he scattered his forces all over the border foolishly thinking he could defend everything and all he got for his pains was to get his army shattered by the concentrated Lannister army and find himself in chains.
He was totally inexperienced in war but he and his little friends like Marq Piper treated the war like it was a game until all of a sudden it wasn't.
Its not like he didn't have experienced men to advise him.
That said he might have been incompetent at war but he was w far more decent Lord than most
Although taking in the vast multitude of traumatized smallfolk would weaken the defense of Riverrun in the event of a siege,he did so any way because as he said in the book
_"These are my people and they are afraid"_
One of the best comments here. Respect for Edmure "The Honorable Fish" Tully.
It always bugs me that they expected Edmure to be a mind reader and know Robb’s plan despite never being told.
Like he was consciously going to make the decision to let a huge Lannister army move untouched through his and his vassals lands without some kind of indication that he should do so.
Frankly, it’d be more worrying if Edmure had allowed the crossing without knowing the plan.
the riverlords were sent on their mission to reclaim their lands by order of the king and by insistence of Ser Edmure. when he left for the west Edmure was not expected to do much more than hold the castle; its obvious when you see tthat he did not have an army availablee to him. fighting was a breach of his command,. Ser ed was motivated by a bruised ego and a desire for vengeance and glory not strategic thinking.
Who would in the right mind let an army as large as Tywin's (around 20k or so) to pass across one of the best defensive positions in the Riverlands ( The Red fork) to hunt your ally's minor cavalry force (around 6k).
Tywin even had more cavalry then Robb. Robb's plan of running along the coast until he tires Tywin's forces would have failed, because
1.Tywin had more Cavalry
2. Tywin could have left his infantry at strategic points or stronghold to prevent Robb's forces from turning back.
This would have trapped Robb between the coast, Tywin's army and some other major castle (example the Crag)
@@ThePro-qn6wr sadly, Ser ed was not in is right mind when he launched his offensive action against Tywin. had he had the wits to see it. Tywin marching west was no threat to him while he garrisoned riverrun. outside of riverrun he is vulnerable. and Tywins force was mostly infantry. which would slow down Tywin either way. since the majority of the riverlands was burned out or picked clean Edmures action, accomplished little value. it was a risk he should not have taken.
i dont think its fair to say robb would have failed, Tywin is coming to a battlefield of Robb's choosing rather than the other way around. numbersw are not everything, though they do help. but if it did happen where tywin chased Robb a lot of dominoes are up in the air to how the future would turn out.
point is, Ser Edmure was ordered to hold a castle and did not have the military capability to do much else than garrison duty. calling the banners back and seeking a fight is what our poor knight did. and he did it for glory not out of a sense of strategic necessity.
These Lannisters seem doomed. Even if the table turns, and they get some successes after this, I don't think they would be able of winning the war.
Stannis Lives!!! *stomp *stomp
Stannis Lives!!! *stomp *stomp
The Lannister have a disadvantage. It’s hard to protect both kings landing and the western and since they are on opposite sides. Especially losing 30,000 troops in the beginning of the war. They are at a huge disadvantage. Only way was how Tywin did it, sharp diplomacy
@@raphaelostrowski6336 dont forget edmure tully ruined robbs plan of leading tywins army into a trap
*Laughs in Britain in 1940*
But their gold won the war. They paid off Frey and Bolton, and used Karstark and Umber resentment at Robb's executing of the houses' heads.
Edmure was actually super reliable, plus the Mountain was sacking all of the Riverlands for weeks and killing scores of people, of course he'd want to kill him. Robb didn't tell him of his plan to trap the Lannisters at all
The Young Wolf And The Prideful Lion Clash upon the Waters Once bound by Harren’s Iron Chains.
One thing that should be made more clear: Tywin marched from Harrenhal only AFTER Renly Baratheon died. It is very possible Tywin actually understood what Robb was doing (trying to lure him to the West), but with Renly dead, the Tyrells leaderless, and most importantly, Stannis besieging Storm's End (a castle so strong, it could have lasted a siege for half a year), Tywin felt confident to march West. If Stannis besieged Storm's End, he would have enough time to deal with Robb Stark in the West. If Stannis stormed the castle, he would lose a deal too many men. But Tywin knew Stannis was too seasoned to storm the castle. Tywin would've never marched back to the West so long as either Baratheon brothers were threatening King's Landing. Only when he saw that Renly was dead and Stannis preoccupied did he choose to finally leave Harrenhal.
agreed. also i think its just as likely that Tywin intended to cross the trident, but instead of marching to the west, attack the riverlands. given that Casterly Rock itself was never in any danger and that Lannisport is likely well defended, it would have been just as viable for him to annihilate the Riverlord's in battle and lay seige to some of their castles. if this had worked as planned thousands of enemy troops and likely several lords and their castles would have been neutralised. The hope obviously being to lure Robb back east. supposing that Storms End held out for another six months, this gives Tywin the perfect oppertinity to forge the Tyrell alliance, defeat the riverlord's and hopefully lure Robb back to the riverlands to deal with him. the Freys and Boltons would likely switch sides at this point and betray Robb, especially if the now allied Lannister / Tyrell force managed to defeat Stannis, or at least keep him on the back foot
@@Alexwright12 That is why I never agreed with the people who always crap on Edmure. Sure, Robb's plan was brilliant when he described it. But would it have worked exactly how he intended? A very intelligent quote from Littlefinger states that in the game of thrones sometimes the pieces refuse to make the moves you have prepared for them. What if it wasn't enough? And why should have Edmure gambled on waiting inside the walls and be starved, when he could make Tywin's life hell at a river crossing, which was VERY defensible? For all Edmure knew, Tywin would have burned the crap out of the Riverlands, whilst Robb was hundreds of miles away, unable to reinforce. Was he supposed to let his people get slaughtered just because Robb vaguely told him to 'hold Riverrun?' They were his people. Robb was definitely playing 4-D chess with everyone, but he never considered that all his allies and opponents were playing 3-D chess at most. And you cannot really win a game when you are the only one playing it...
@@hammer3721 Tbf Robb could just have came back but it was definitely his fault for not telling Edmure.
11:05 "fortunatelly for him he was now being tended to by Lady Jeyne Westerling". I think you meant unfortunatelly for him.
He got laid...... So he was fortunate in a way
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl he could have gotten laid with Roslyn Frey and not get killed.
And I think you mean "fortunately" and "unfortunately".
I've sat here packing my apartment and listening to this for however long these first 5 videos have been combined. These are really good thanks I'm sure this is hard work. The only thing I'm disappointed by is that it ended lol but maybe ill check out some others from the channel.
I feel robbed that we didn’t see any of these battles in the show
I always thought the plot point about Robb choosing to keep Edmure in the dark about his master plan was a bit weak. Of course the plan is need-to-know, but in this instance, the plan hinged on Edmure taking a very specific action. So he needed to know. It's one of the few things I thought the show handled better, by scaling down Robb's secret plans.
he wasn't kept in the dark. its edmure who misunderstood if at all. Ser Edmure eventually realises this.
Thank you for covering this in great detail. Oxcross and the campaign in the westerlands gets over looked. There's a lot of what if scenarios that make this part of the war so interesting.
Man, I read the books but the whole Robb Stark campaign was always a bit muddled for me. This clears a lot of it up thankfully.
I believe Edmure is not incompetent. In the feudal world the castle would also include the land. So he was fulfilling his orders.
True that was a very moral thing to do, but also it was very tactically brilliant of Edmure, I am actually willing to say he's better than Robb because Robb was using a force of six thousand cavalries in hostile rugged lands, which is just no good for a battle on the terms of Tywin.
@@maxtomlinson8134 you can be willing to say it but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near right💀
@@rosshugecaulk How is it not right?
@@maxtomlinson8134 Edmure was a good tactician no doubt, this video goes to show, but it also shows that Robb was simply better, smarter, at a younger age. Just because Edmure held a single battle where we won, with a heavy geographic advantage, doesn't make him better than Mr.Stark. Maybe if youre looking at this one moment in time, like comparing Edmures battle to Robbs battle happening at the same time.
@@rosshugecaulk There is no excusing topography in any situation of war, it's those who have the skills to know where to utilize their specific units best, that will effectively win battles, Edmure didn't just win, he beat Tywin who had led armies before and was quite experienced, as he fought in the war of the ninepenny kings, which was some Blackfyre revolt, and he had effectively dealt with the Ryene and Tarbak rebellion, and sacked King's landing. Robb literally was just a can crusher, he fought Jamie who's a swordsman and a former Kingsguard, nothing that impressive, plus then Robb ambushed a Lannister army led by Stafford Lannister who was just even worse than Jamie. Robb hasn't fought anyone who's ever challenging, and Edmure did it with little experience because he's talented and saved Robb's army from being destroyed.
"The Tully's mocked me for years ...... the starks mocked me where are they now? " Walder Frey Lord Paramount of the Riverlands
1 - Letting the Greyjoy heir return to his father and losing the leverage on the ironborn, while the North is completely undefended from the coast
2- not telling Edmure about his plan of attracting Tywin to the Westerlands and away from Kingslanding
3 - breaking his oath to the Freys
4- Executing lord Karstark and completely losing the support of one of his biggest allies
Is there anything I missed? Is there a worse military strategist in Westeros than Robb Stark?
i think the freys totally turned the table they excuted most of the leaderships
You're a few steps ahead of this video.
The Freys were always opportunists and they lost faith in Robb after Blackwater. Even if Robb did keep faith with The Freys, Flaky Walder probably still would've been down with The Red Wedding.
@@gfilmer7150 Nope. Throughout the Red Wedding Walder Frey kept bringing up how Robb slighted him. He's really petty and felt personal contempt towards Robb. His son (or grandson, can't remember) confirmed this in the epilogue of ASoS, that Walder wouldn't stop bitching about it and that the Starks would pay for the humiliation. He is very prideful and he wanted to have a daughter married to a king. So I don't think he would be in for the RW if Robb kept the promise.
You're conflating the Freys with the Boltons. Roose Bolton is super opportunistic and was ready to turn cloak as soon as it became advantageous.
@@Ζήνων-ζ1ι Walder would have betrayed Robb Stark anyway as soon as he felt safe to do so, the "slight" was simply Walders justification to do so, and even then as soon as the war started turning against the North Walder wouldn't have wasted his opportunity to be one the winning side.
Historical note: Walder Frey is well known in universe for being a craven dishonorable asshole, during Robert's Rebellion he only showed up to answer the call of his liege lord once the Battle of the Trident (and thus the war by extension) had already been won by the Rebels, and if the Trident had instead turned in favor of the Targaryens, Walder Frey would have switched sides immediately. The literal only reason anyone in the setting put up with his bullshit was the fact he controlled the only crossing of the Trident between the north and the riverlands, if it wasn't for that he would have been stripped of his land and titles decades before the War of Five Kings
This channel is the best! Thanks for covering this!
I'm really glad that a lot of people agree that Edmure wasn't nearly as incompetent as the narrative would have us believe. Robb was definitely wrong in keeping him in the dark. And although Edmure may not have had the brilliance of Robb and Brynden or Catelyn's pragmatic mind. He definitely would not make the blunders Robb and Catelyn did i.e beheading Lord Karstark and freeing Jaime Lannister.
Love these GoT videos, the animations are brilliant let alone the story telling
Honestly my new favorite channel. truly fantastic work. Warhammer are always my favorite of your video's but all the fantacy videos' are amazing equally and just happy I get to see your wonderful work!
I think it's unfair to call Lord Edmure Tully incompetent cuz his battle plan was sound. He's just a little glory hungry but that's normal for his age (he's also only around 26 or sth). I'm pretty sure if he'd told Edmure the plan everything would have gone better...
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu.
Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them. Plus, keeping your enemy out is a fundamental principle in warfare. Tywin would have been totally incompetent to leave Riverrun with armed men behind him, instead of besieging the castle, again, while he drove against Robb.
Edmure was a tactician in the battle that he won, not looking at a wider strategy.
Yeah, all he did was prevent an invasion of his land and folk, not his fault he wasn't supposed to because nobody told him.
@@jonbaxter2254 he was told directly to stay at Riverrun and he disobeyed . This video is too generous to Edmure and doesn't mention that.
@@gingerbill128 Edmure wasn't ordered to stay at Riverrun, he was ordered to "hold" Riverrun, vaguely and with no additional details. He decided to seize the initiative and actively defend Riverrun in the field, and successfully used terrain as a force multiplier to repel a numerically superior army. Without prior knowledge of Robb's plan or clear instructions to remain inside the castle, this was a much better decision than letting the Lannisters pass unchallenged, either to return to the Westerlands and attack Robb's rear, or to besiege Riverrun, which would leave Edmure penned in and with limited strategic options to break the siege.
@@sparklespets adding the word vaguely is funny , that was in the book was it? Rob vaguely told Edmure to hold Riverrun .
u guys should make a video on how the hero of kvatch becomes the new sheogorath and the lore between him jyggalag in elder scrolls
Edumure gets a bad rap based on his actions this episode he’s the 2nd most competent character next to Grey Wind
All he did was try and prevent a hostile invasion of his land and people. He's a right proper lad.
@@jonbaxter2254 Edmure Tully is man whom protects his people, even when it would handicap him.
And it's in no way his fault that Robb failed to inform him that his secret plan hinged on a very specific course of action by Edmure.
@@Oxtocoatl13 where does this myth come from? Ser Edmure was informed. he just went overboard and did not do what he was told.
Another brilliantly fabulous and exquisitely fabulous video on one of the most decisive moments of the war. A video that should have been more correctly entitled how Edmure Tully disobeyed orders and defended the riverlands and unknowingly saved the lannister's from destruction.
Edmure actually saved Robb from destruction.
@@maxtomlinson8134 No he didn't as that is a completely wrong reading of the situation. As Robb's plan was all about drawing Tywin back into the westerlands, to defend his lands under the impression that he would catch the young wolf off guard, when Robb was banking on exactly that and use it to allow him to ambush and destroy the enemy in one decisive battle.
@@wedgeantillies66 He can't ambush Tywin, it's his land he knows it better than Robb, the people living there are just gonna tell where Robb is, six thousand men on horseback are not exactly invisible, Tywin has local support.
@@maxtomlinson8134 Westerlands has been scoured clean of men and troops by Tywin for war effort and remains destroyed at Oxcross. Remaining local people and soldiers are sheltering inside castles and keeps escaping the rape and pillage of the lands. Plus as Robb's forces are detached and striking out all over the region, scattered reports would filter in, leaving Tywin confused as to where the real enemy strength was concentrated. Giving Robb element of surprise after he reconcentrates quickly when he hits him with his ambush and catch's twin's 20,000 strong army stretched out over long line of march, vulnerable to being destroyed in part or in detail with multiple strikes.
@@wedgeantillies66 Your are talking bullshit, the guy has around six thousand men large on horseback, it's gonna be pretty obvious where the army is, there wouldn't be conflicting rumors, there wouldn't be and not everyone in the countryside is hiding, some would be untouched or just tell Tywin where Robb's army is, six thousand is nothing to hide.
I only came across these recently as I subscribe to kings and generals channel which sound like same narrator. Liking the idea of looking at battles from fiction books and interesting to see in contrast to historical ones. Subscribed and enjoying it, keep it up
This was King Robb blunder here. Though he didn't know it at the time but not informing Edmure of the bigger plan cost The Young Wolf the war. If he honestly had concerns about Edmure leading capabilities, he should've gvae him clearer orders or put someone like Tytos Blackwood in charge of Riverrun's defense.
Man i really wish Robb hadnt betrayed the Freys.. he was serving the Lannisters L's left, right and every which way!
Wonderful video the troop movements they made the battle of the stone mill seem like a smaller event in the show. It sounded like they only wanted to trap the mountain in the show not twins whole army. Which would have left the starks in a better position to gather more support promisesing independence for those who helped against stannis after twins defeat.
Its too bad that Game of Thrones didn't have the budget to show this battle
Whoever of the Crag defenders that fired the arrow at Robb basicly won the war for the Lannisters..
Robb should have made Edmure aware of his plans instead he left Edmure to protect Riverrun, and when the Lannister army marched Edmure had two choice
1. Let the Lannister army March through Riverlands and plunder it in the process killing everyone they can find
2. Protect his land lords and small folk from the enemy who would kill them all
"If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the generals in the blame. But if his order are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." -Sun Tzu.
Robb's orders were clear, but not distinct nor did he ensure Edmure thoroughly grasped them.
Robb was a good man, but a little stubborn. It wouldn't have killed him to tell Tully his plans.
@@geoffreyedgson7875 agreed but if you think your most powerful ally is a little incompetent you must explain your plans throughly, and I say Edmure was only little incompetent because he didn't ran away from the fight, he did what is expected from a High Lord he protected his vassal lords interests, had he let Lannister army cross the red fork unchallenged they would have destroyed Riverlands throughly as vengeance for Jaime's capture.
IMO if you are a leader for Multi-state army/factions like Robb then atleast make your important lords aware of the plan, he did that during battles of Green Fork and Wishpering Woods, had he not told Rosse Bolton of his plan to delay Tywin and prevent him from aiding Jaime the Northern army would have been destroyed at Green Fork since houses Karstark Tallharts etc would have preferred to fight to the end without retreating in orderly fashion like they did as per the plan
The Lannister was already doing that to the river lands for months, while Edmure hid in the castle, and he received strict and CLEAR orders to not leave the castle.
@@amardeep_singh_chauhan Exactly. Robb did not ensure his intensions and vision were thoroughly established, before departing from an ally whom could act semi-independently of his full oversight.
Plus in combat (large or small scale), individuals have to be acting, never reacting; or remain passive deliberately for a larger plan. Edmure was not informed of the larger plan and he followed this fundamental tenant for war.
THE KING IN THE NORTH 🐺❄️⚔️!!!!!!!
The King who lost the North with his naivety, shortsight and stupidity
@@ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ-β7μ The wars not over yet
@@gfilmer7150 indeed. But it already gives signs that the war will turn against the Starks.
What was Robb thinking by sending theon to his father; Theoretically, theon was the only thing that kept balon from attacking the North. And now Robb is like telling him:"oh balon, please. I want you to f..k me in the arse while I can't deal with you"
And as for edmure...he may not be the sharpest tool around, but he's still the Lord paramount of the riverlands. Of course he's to be included in war meetings and the overall strategy. Especially since the warfront is on his territory. Robb and brynden have absolutely no right to chastise edmure for acting on circumstances he didn't know. Let alone step in to clean up the mess Robb made by refusing to honour his promise to the freys
@@ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣΑΜΑΝΑΤΙΔΗΣ-β7μ Even after Robb dies, many Stark Loyalists still continue the fight
@@gfilmer7150 true. But they'll never be this close to end the Lannister regime as they were under Robb
I am in awe at how comprehensive and detailed these are. I don't think anyone can touch the level of accuracy, attention to detail, and politics of GOT. I read the books twice and I seen details here I missed. The animated map with detailed fighting groups makes understanding this stuff little bit easier. Great job. I seen the last one and was awaiting these. Thank you.
One of my few gripes with GOT was that they didn't have the budget to depict several of the battles mentioned in the book.
@@theawesomeman9821 yes. I love just going back and just dwell in the dialogue. I wonder how one person could write such a huge, complex, world. In that world is its own unique people, problems, languages, races, and on and on. The dialogue is just amazing. Like on here and elsewhere in print and tv, people literally talk about this like it's some parallel world. I think it's astonishing.
The Lannisters were surrounded on all sides and effectively doomed. But somehow they still won on all counts.
Nothing pissess me off more.
They won the war (except for Stannis), but they're clearly losing the peace.
They’re on their last legs currently. Aegon Targaryen will bring them down and avenge the fallen.
They had the cash to outlast everyone.
@@catmonarchist8920 What good is it if they’re not using it to hire mercenaries or bride Lords
@@gfilmer7150 they were hiring mercenaries throughout to supplement their forces and replace losses.
The location of Casterly Rock is off as it's supposed to be right on the coast. If it's a problem with the mapping I'll understand.
The critical error beside all the Robb's blunders was Edmures withdrawing of the Stark garrison in Twins who were left to keep the Freys in check
No that was Rouse Bolton’s doing
The Young Wolf never lost a battle.
Would have very easily, if Edmure followed his orders.
This is was a good video man, thanks.
WE NEED THE YOUNG DRAGON DAERON’S CONQUEST OF DORNE 🐉
Basically, all the River Lords are straight up badasses. The Mallisters, in particular, absolutely fuck shit up.
Commenting as a sacrifice to the UA-cam Algorithm
I’m sure Robb and Stannis will win the war! Right?…….right?
Robb will win the war, marry his true love and will live happily as the King of the North :)
@@nicinat0r King in the North and of the Trident :')
Oh, my sweet summer child...
In my heart Stannis wins...
@@jonbaxter2254 same .
So what are you going to do when you run out of GoT battles and events
"General Luck" he says. The Lannisters had the luck of a leprechaun in that war. Martin is so bad writing wars and battles that he had Tywin invading the Riverlands in three weeks and taking keeps without any casualties. To put this into perspective, the Riverlands is about the size of France. The German Blitzkrieg took them six weeks. Tywin OUTPACED the Blitzkrieg!!! That's not how medieval warfare works
Because he was rich nad he is tywin
Fantastic. Thanks for posting
These animations are so creepy. Real uncanny valley shit
Nobody wants to acknowledge edmure tully was the only man to defeat tywin lanister in battle.
Nobody wants to acknowledge if he followed his orders, Robb would have died.
Are you planning to cover the chronicles of Narnia? Would definitely be an interesting topic
Babe wake up, a new Wizards And Warriors video just dropped
I just wanna point out that Rob Stark never lost a battle.
And someone else in these comments called him the worst military strategist in Westeros lol
@@Handsome_Black cause he was. he was an excellent tactician, never loosing a battle but he was an awful strategist. everything that happened with the Freys, giving Roose Bolton enough control to throw northerners on sucide missions, not informing one of his most important commanders about his plans, sending theon back north etc. one of the best tacticians in all of westeros, also one of its worst strategists and politciains
True, but would have if Edmure just held Riverun, and let Tywin cross the Red Fork.
@@maxtomlinson8134 doesn't matter cause it never happened. Rob Stark will remain the only king without a losing streak in Westros history
@@theawesomeman9821 yeah thanks to edmure
Say what you will about Edmure and his mishaps, but he was a great tactician at the fords and deserves more respect.
If knights of the Vale joined with Robb the result will be different. Dorne may also use this opportunity to avenge the Lannisters.
They should have but they didn’t
No one talks about that lol. Why didn’t Dorbe jump in right around here
@@ckthegreat100 Dorne was planning on backing Young Griff or Dany, so they wanted to conserve their forces.
Also Doran is way too patient, they might have backed Renly but their animosity to the Tyrells made them hesitate and then whoops he's dead. Then Stannis, they probably would have backed him had he taken KL, but he didn't so they didn't.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul and Robb? I’m just saying, if you’ve been waiting literal decades to get revenge, the early stages of the WOTFK would have been perfect timing. Lannisters looked all but defeated until they allied with the Tyrells
Have you ever considered tipping your toes into Warhammer content? I would love to see this type of content for a few Warhammer 40k battles, or even Warhammer Fantasy/AoS content.
They already have. Check out their Warhammer Fantasy playlist.
Maybe focus on the history of the Primarchs and the eventual Horus Heresy.
Causing a horse panic is probably one of the hardest things to do in warfare, especially if the horses are well trained. BUT, if you can pull it off, as only a few have been able to do in either history or fiction, it is DEVASTATING to any army with any reliance on cavalry or horse drawn supply wagons.
The "space opera" world I mentioned in an earlier video, especially SPACE PATROL, both the TV and radio versions, were the basis of atompunk and retro-future. From the forties to the late nineties, when interest in these shows waxed, along with interest in the culture of the fifteis, "space opera" was a derogatory term, meaning low quality , overly fantastic writing
Since channel creation I held this banner up high so I feel like still mentioning it from time to time: the 3D graphics don't look too great.
I think without the help of House Tyrell and the betrayal of House Frey, House Stark and Tully would’ve won this war
Small correction Stannis wasn't a pretender king... he was the heir especially because Cersei's children are not legitimate, you could say smallest army of the 5 potential kings
Otherwise great video
Considering they called Stannis a pretender, said he got Dragonstone because of Robert's spite, and that Ned refused to help Renly because of honor, I sense a slight bias.
Stannis was the brother of a usurper, so he is by association a pretender.
@@theawesomeman9821 The Targaryens lost The Throne when they began burning their subjects out of delusions of becoming a dragon.
@@theawesomeman9821 Targaryans broke the feudal contract by their behaviour towards their vassals
@@theawesomeman9821 How are the Targaryens more legit? The Targaryens and Baratheons both won the throne by right of conquest.
The Battle of Remus Nine
Would be cool to see some stories from Blizzard's Warcraft universe.
How are your maps made? Do you have a program you use or artists whom you pay? They look amazing!
Looks to be made using a map creating program called Wonderdraft.
Great video! ⚔
Starting 2:10 whats the name of the music?
It hurts to see my boy Edmure called incompetent. He was very much competent and a good leader of the Riverlands in his father's stead. Of course he was a bit naive and took too many "bad" decisions, like allowing the common folk inside Riverrun, but he did those things out of duty to defend his people. From his point of view, he tried to protect his nephew from getting surrounded in enemy territory by denying Tywin passege back to the Westerlands. It was really not his fault he did not know of Robb's strategy. He did the best thing he could with the information and forces that were present to him. And after all that "blunder", he willingly went and tried to make amends for Robb's mistake by agreeing to the Frey wedding. He was truly done dirty by everyone. He is one of the best characters, in my opinion, in the whole series, certainly one of the most honorable and dutiful.
Wasn't this exact video on the Kings and General channel.
Again.....neat new animaiton style but classic KaG is best. Thought admittedly this CGI is better than the watercolor painting style you tried with the recent Mongol video. Interested to see what is next
Are there videos going over how Lanister came to power? I know the books and show cover it but these videos have a slight jump in time. It’s a great series but feels like it’s missing important details for those who haven’t seen/read the series.
We need to see more stuff on Anime wars
Great ninja wars wars
Marine Ford wars
Code geas wars
Much more
Night’s Watch Ned Stark would’ve been something, man
Great as always, but only one thing;
Although I appreciate the time and resources you guys spend on designing those characters accurate with the books, please use the face of the actors🙏🏼
Thanks for your amazing videos again
no, bad. you need to be spanked. no. just no. book canon should hve its own aesthetic, cuz.... well it does!
Given that they wouldn't be paying the actors, using their likeness may be slightly illegal...
I never knew edmure achieved such a great victory over Tywin. Perhaps it wasent in the show? In the show Robb yelled at him for defeating the mountain.
Exactly, never mentioned in the show except for Rob yelling about his plans having been ruined. I in the show thought it was about a skirmish/small battle Edmure won, but with great strategical consequences, instead it turns out it was a pretty large scale battle where he was actually very succesful.
In the show, Edmure fought The Moutain because Tywin was too busy talking with Arya.
@@MDP1702 Well, while large, the Battle of the Fords in the books was pretty indecisive. The Lannisters did not suffer that much casualties(as they were able to arrive back at KL with the Tyrells to lift the siege), yet Edmure succesfully defended the Red Fork and beat off Tywin.
It's akin to the Battle of the Green Fork for the Lannisters, an indecisive tactical victory but a strategic defeat.
cmon hurry up I can't wait for the afterwards battles cmoooooopn
Will you include battles such as the fist of the first men?
very good videos!
Love these game of thrones videos! Have you done any battles from the dance of the dragons? Like the battles tumbleton?
Does this video explain the war according to the books or what happened in the show?
Books
cant wait for more :)
Edmure did everything he was ordered to. He prevented Tywin from crossing to what would seem optimal place to start sieging Riverrun. Had he not Edmures forces would be trapped in Riverrun and Robb would need to come to the rescue, against larger and better prepared force. So Edmures choosing of a location better suited to victory was a sound strategy.
@@KumeRevla Well both Stark and Lannister forces were not aware of Baratheon progress in the south, so Tywin would've most likely marched to the Rock to fight Robb. Which was a sound strategy, but Robb didn't order Edmure to allow passage for Tywins forces. Edmure prevented as I said any destruction of Riverrun and inflicted large casualties to Tywin, also unaware of Robb's strategy, Edmure prevented Tywin from stopping Robb's raid of the Rock. Robb was brilliant on battlefield, but his court skills were lacking, that's what costed his reign the most.
@@KumeRevla As we can see in this video, the series didn't potray that accurately, there it shows as if Edmure attacked a position of a part of Lannister forces, plus we don't see Robb's raid of the Rock. There it is potrayed as if the Robb's goal was just to capture and kill the Mountain. While the Lannister army wouldn't march to the west at all if they knew they were needed in the south, Tywin got the word about Stannis after his failed attempt to cross the river.
Tywin’s goal wasn’t to take Riverrun, he said he was moving West to beat Robb Stark. If Edmure knew this and were smart, he could’ve feigned a defense, conceal his real strength in Riverrun while sending a splinter force to lightly harass Tywin’s vanguard and then fake a defeat.
@@gfilmer7150 Well it is easy for us to know Tywin's intentions, but Edmure couldn't have known that. From his point of view he defended Riverrun and inflicted have casualties to Tywin. So my opinion is that Edmure didn't do anything out of order or wrong, had his orders been to allow Tywin passage, he would have done it. I mean strategy you describe is a good one, but we are allowed way more informations, then commanders in such situations would.
@@nikolaoneill198 True, maybe if Blackfish were holding Riverrun instead.
To be honest dude, I like the old video making style and the way simpler one style better then this one it feels dry
great vid
When will you continue your Star Wars series?
Stannis wasn't a pretender. He was the legitimate heir of his brother Robert, since Cerci's children were revealed to be bastards. Renly had no right to the throne so long as Stannis lived.
Yep, this series is biased. Proof of this is in how Robert is called a usurper. They also said Ned turned down Renly’s proposal because of honor and not because of Renly stealing The Iron Throne.
Who would in the right mind let an army as large as Tywin's (around 20k or so) to pass across one of the best defensive positions in the Riverlands ( The Red fork) to hunt your ally's minor cavalry force (around 6k).
Tywin even had more cavalry then Robb. Robb's plan of running along the coast until he tires Tywin's forces would have failed, because
1.Tywin had more Cavalry
2. Tywin could have left his infantry at strategic points or stronghold to prevent Robb's forces from turning back.
This would have trapped Robb between the coast, Tywin's army and some other major castle (example the Crag).
So really the Execution of Ned Stark, the Battles of OxCross and the Fords (along with Robb Stark razing the Westerlands), the Siege of Storm’s End, the fighting at Bitterbridge and the murder of Renly Baratheon are covered here. At this point Wizards and Warriors will cover the events of ASOIAF before the Winds of Winter comes out.
Great episode but So the map of the westerlands are wrong in the placements of towns in castles especially the Rock
Awesomeness!!!
can you make a video from battles from the eragon books or the percy jackson books they are really detailed😁😁😁
Harrenhal is not easily defended
I like how many people keep saying "Robb was incompetent" as they show themselves masters of politics in some Paradox game, while talking about a story they watched. Never lived, just watched.
It's mainly because of the TV show
Robb's mistakes aren't ones you can make in paradox games.
Great video as always, a shame ASoIaF is absolutely dead to me...
Legend of the Galactic Heroes Series please! or Arslan Senki!
Are you following the book or the series?
In most aspect they follow the books. I mean you never get these tactical details from the films, and it leads towards Robb marrying the Westerling-girl (like in the books). The Westerlings at least were a family with history and nobility (to marry her was of course stupid still). But it is not this even much more stupid version in the films where he married that dumb lowborn from across the sea (if I remember her right).
Edmure wasn't incompetent. Robb ordered him to hold Riverrun and holding the fords and not letting Riverrun be besieged was arguably the best way to do it.
Tywin had no intention of sieging Riverun, and if Edmure didn't disobey his orders and take the fight to Tywin, Robb would have lost the war, far sooner.
@@maxtomlinson8134 Is it really stated in the books what was Tywin's intention? Robb assumed that Tywin would withdraw from the Riverlands back to the West, but he could have just as well tried to besiege Riverrun to make Robb withdraw from the West back to the Riverlands, after all Tywin knew that his army may be soon needed in King's Landing to defend the city.
@@faramir3466 To some extent it was needed, it's just Tyrells had the larger army to do the job really.
@@faramir3466 robbs plan was to disloge Tywin from harrenhall. he could not lay seige to it because its a big castle and leaves them vulnerable to attack and the lannisters were mustering another host.
Robb sent Catelyn to deal with Renly as a way to get twin to move from harrenhall since she rerfused to go back to Winterfell
he sends theon as envoy to Balon recognising him as a king and theon a prince. with an agreement to be allies.
and by edmures insistance he releases the riverlords to go reclaim their lands. with this understanding ser Edmure was tasked with holding Riverrun while he went west to deal with ser Stafford's host.
tywin only had three options. defend the lannister held Kingslanding or defend his homeland or stay put in Harrenhal. with renly thretening the capital Tywins options become 2. now robb having destroyed the lannister host and raiding the westerlands kinda forces the option for Tywin. he moves out to defend his homeland. why not seige riverrun? he could have but well that takes time and his reinforrcing army is not coming to assist. i think its fairly logical to assume Tywins motivvation is head back into the Westerlands. if he lays seige. perhaps Bolton's men come down while they are vulnerable, building seige equipment.
the battle of the fords delays Tywin and message reaches him and he heads to defend kingslanding as Renly has fallen and the tyrells have joined Joffrey. Stannis is now the biggest threat and he is on the move.
Good video . My understanding was that Rob told Edmure to wait at Riverrun , which he didn't . You are too generous to Edmure in the video. This implies he did something good and it Was Robs fault for not telling him , that's not how i read it. And Edmure's opinion is really insignificant as Rob was in charge.
Robb did not tell Edmure to "wait in Riverrun" he told Edmure to hold Riverrun and holding the fords and not letting Tywin to besiege the castle was arguably the best way to do it, so it really was Robb's fault for not telling Edmure his plan.
@@faramir3466 Good communication (rather lack thereof) once again fails to save the day.
Do battletech plz. amazing space opera.
edmure clearly played total war games