Roundtable Review: Storms & Brown VS Osman & Peters
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- Опубліковано 12 бер 2024
- We will review American Gospel's Roundtable with Justin Peters, Jim Osman, Michael Brown, and Sam Storms. A four-hour roundtable discussion, the AG episode addresses the disagreements over the biblical definitions of false teachers, false prophets, and the work of the Holy Spirit. You can watch the AG Roundtable here: www.watchagtv.com/roundtable-...
Join us as we unpack the arguments presented by each side and share our insights.
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Cessationism is a first world luxury.
Lol sounds about right
Could not agree more.
Great definition yes absolutely 😊
Amen
Good line!
I am a retired RN- worked in a hospice inpatient unit for 5 years. Witnessed hundreds of deaths. There were less than a handful of times that God made Himself SO clearly seen and known in these sacred moments- “healing” in the final hours. We cling to this world too much- it’s not our home.
Great questions! I would like to know her opinion, too. Seems very interesting, what she witnessed.
I'm curious to know if you were born again while working with Hospice? If so, were you able to minister to any of your patients?
If you were not born again then, did your experience in dealing with death frequently bring you to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
Thank you and may the Lord richly bless you!
Interesting because my little 93 year old Southern Baptist Mammaw as she was going through the death process had some powerful encounters with the Lord, and would lay there telling us in detail what she was seeing. It would happen every time she would have a number of strokes, and there was always a specific nurse that would come in the room when it would happen like the Lord was trying to reach out to her through it. Even the doctor said it was real what was happening to her. It was one of the best gifts she could have ever given me, telling us all the things she was seeing.
@@paulral no apologies needed! Not intrusive! Because I had personally experienced the power of prayer, I had faith to pray for my patients. I would sometimes lay hands on them and pray God would reveal Himself and lead them to Him through the work of the cross. (especially unconscious patients) The Lord undeniably showed me He answered. Two times dramatically. One account below. I believe they went to Heaven. Just like the thief on the cross- who didn’t clean up his act first…He is merciful and desires that none should perish. He is Spirit and works even in the unconscious person giving them a choice based on my experiences only.
@@llowery1276 ☝🏼❤️
I am a believer from Ethiopia living in Canada now. I wish I can tell you how I prayed and get filled with the Holy Spirt as I prayed together along with other believers. I wish I can tell you how during my time in Yemen ( country in middle east) demons in a neighboring houses would scream and people that know we are praying would come begging us not to pray. I know and aware there is chaos and mess in the name of the Holy Sprit, but He is still at work! Just like the Father has promised.
What clarity on an often confusing topic! When Joshua said "We place our trust in the one who wills us all to be healed and not in the healing itself," wow!! Perfect! Thank you!
If somebody who never knew a thing about Christianity found a Bible and read it, zero chance they think the miraculous gifts have ceased.
don't think Cessationist camp thinks miracle ss have ceased, not Contin camp.
i was that somebody. That is why I turned out a tongue speaking, sick healing (really Jesus is the healer but you know what I mean) demon rebuking charismatic.
If someone finds a Bible and reads just the book of Acts, there is a good chance they would become a Modalist.
That is why they need an honest preacher because gifts are no longer available/ happening
Nobody just finding a Bible and reading it would believe that Gibberish is now tongues , leg lengthening is on par with raising
the dead , curing the lame ,and blind and that what God said by the prophets always came true 100% of the time , and was more accurate than a lucky 8 ball
I still believe in all the gifts… God is the same yesterday and forever!!!
As a theologian for 60 years, in the Baptist denomination, reformed theologian; I have come to the point that those who believe in the gospel , scripture, the Trinity and the foundational doctrines, there is room to disagree on certain interpretations not conflicting with historical biblical authority. Let us major on what we agree with and give grace to the few issues we disagree. ie eschatology, gifts, etc. I enjoy your pod cast and enjoy your faith .
When I asked someone to pray for me in my healing - that the cyst in my throat would not be the lymph node development of another cancer upon having my thyroid removed and treatment for thyroid cancer - I asked for them to join me in the same heart that the leper prayed - "Lord, I know You can heal me if You will." I wasn't hedging, I KNEW my God knows much more than I do about what can be accomplished through my healing anywhere along the line - immediately, along the line, or upon death. This discussion is an emphasis that ignores our deficit to actually TRUST Him and it divides us!!! Later on in my worship, I heard Jesus through the Holy Spirit tell me, "I WILL heal you." I still don't know what that's going to look like, but I trust Him and any low-lying fruit of the enemy of worry or anxiety is no longer an issue.
0:03 I've been healed of horrible headaches for over 25 years. I used to take a prescription and twice got Novocaine shots in my neck. Those headaches have been gone since I sang in a choir at a huge healing service and he called out headaches! And that someone was a questionable person who helped create an atmosphere that opened us up to increasing my faith--Benny Hinn! I don't follow him today, but I was healed at his service all those years ago.
And what I always heard from Cessationists was that if someone got healed at a Benny Hinn or Oral Roberts miracle crusade, they were getting healed by God IN SPITE of these heretical men
I was blessed to be part of a community in the 70's that Believers that were Charismatic Catholics, folk singing Presbyterians, Baptists (me) Lutherans etc. all worshipped together. Loved attending John JOHN! Osteen's church at times. Special times.
In Brazil there's a huge community of charismatic catholic, so that the word "charismatic" is linked to catholicism. Evangelicals that believe in the gifts are known as pentecostals or renewed.
So glad to hear that intro from Peter’s. I appreciate his critiques. Felt they have been over generalizations at times. Unity is important
Me too because I stopped listening to him because I felt he believed all who are charismatic as not saved or are heretics.
I think he only said that because he's being confronted to his face.
He says CRAZY stuff about continuationists in general as a core feature of his ministry.
Oh shoot, I think I agree more with the cessationists. LOL. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think what it means is God is bringing unity and there really is a remnant emerging: Believers who have the humility to accept that the Bible never negates the continuation of the gifts, and also have the humility not to invent all kinds of wacky theologies and invite witchcraft into the church under the guise of spiritual gifts. That is my hope, anyway.
Regarding Bethel, I did three years there and literally got into big trouble at the end of First Year for telling them our teachings were confusing and needed to be clarified, because the students were super confused and into errors. The leader who interviewed me was so enraged, he denied me entrance to Second Year, and my revival group pastor had to go to bat for me and fight for me to be let into Second Year. The ambiguity in Bethel's teaching is INTENTIONAL. What I don't know is why they think that is a good idea. I'm really concerned about it.
Okay, so, I’m definitely charismatic, but I really appreciate this comment. I love when we can all come together as believers and admit that we don’t know everything, but we are believers in Christ. I also agree bethel is very problematic.
Mark avoid Bethel...serious advice from a Christian brother...
I’m sorry to hear that about Bethel. I have not attended the school but from a distance I could see the value of different teachings from various guests but it can be very challenging for students who have no foundation to start with : (
I think you're right in the sense that God is not answering prayers because you ask him for them it's because they fit his purpose. It's hard to say that God will just do something because you asked him for it that doesn't mean that he won't that just means that it must fit the plan God is not changing the outcome of all of humanity because you asked him for some specific outcome like that movie Bruce Almighty where he just allowed everybody to win the lottery
We only need the gifts and offices until we are all mature, perfect, and fully representing the image of God as the spotless, sinless body of Christ. When we are there, we will ALL be cessationists!
I totally can say I believe because of the Grace on me after Jesus rose me from dead in 1988. I stay humbled with my physical issues. But I pray for lots of people and healings and miracles happen with documentation.
Please pray for me brother!!!!
I just finished “Follow the Healer” by Stephen Seamands (Asbury University). It addresses so much of this in a very balanced and Biblical way that is also very pastoral. Highly highly recommend, and I think he would be a great interview for you guys!
I especially appreciated the way he addressed the question of whether it is always God’s will to heal. Honestly, the way he answered brought healing to my own mind and heart.
I'm pentecostal, but let's be real, our movement went out of control when prosperity gospel sneak into it. Early pentecostals were POOR. In the beginning, pentecostals were from poor churches and neighborhoods. We've become wealthy and lost our humble roots. Time to stop pursing prosperity, and pursuing GOD's presence.
where can I find that in the Bible that the early church was poor?
@@Elizabeth_DeB
Read the gospels buddy
How far do we take that. How much money in the bank is too much How much money in retirement is too much?? How do you raise your kids telling them only make so much in life rather then go to school get good grads so you can get into a good college. why do so many non prosperity Christians tell there kids they are better off the more money you make why are so many anti prosperity Christians want their kids to go to college why is that???
@@Elizabeth_DeBseriously? Most of em were poor, not saying it’s more godly to be poor or rich but there is a massive influence that money plays a role in our lives and can quickly become an idol. It might be merciful for God to let some be poor to keep them from idolatry
I don't see a problem in saying that God's will is for us all to be healthy and at the same time not all of us are healed when someone prays for them. God's will is that no one be lost, but thousands are lost every day.
In the present evil age we do not see the will of God fully exercised on earth
If you're a determinist it's a problem.
@@ravissary79 expand your replying to my comment please
I would humbly add, it doesn’t state in scripture that it’s always His will. Because of the effects of sin, there is much suffering. The will of the Lord is that all may be saved. If they are only healed outwardly, but are not changed inwardly, what benefit is it to men’s souls? Preach the gospel and let men believe in the One who is able to save and heal!
@@lisaonofrey6947 I've never seen healing and provision preached at the expense of salvation.
This is not a correct representation of what happened in the debate. Why are you calling this review of the debate?
I think I heard them at the beginning say this was a four hour debate, and that they were just gonna touch a few of some of the points. I I hope that answers your question or concern.
Do you guys still have the Sam Storms and Mike Bickle videos where SS swears up and down that Bickle is a sound preacher and a man of high moral integrity?
I believe they deleted about four or five of those videos
@@thewestwoodhome Thank you, I couldn’t find them when I was searching. Now I know why.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I hope this scripture does not apply to what/why you are looking for these. Maybe they just want others not to be lead wrongly into Bickles web???
Do you guys ever read A.W Tozer? Where is that heaviness of heart even when you refute other's theology or mode of prayer?
21min Justin Peters is misrepresented. Peters was NOT saying that it's God's will to not heal, and then making it a protocol for all. There is actually more agreement than disagreement.
Both Cessationists believe God can heal and often does, but according to God's will. They believe in praying for the sick, calling elders, ... Peters was pointing out that there were some who were not healed in the NT, and it was documented as such. So, he questions the theology and teaching the expectation that God will heal you now, on demand, esp when peddled by someone promoted with a "gift of healing", and told it's in the atonement.
-Interesting that Remnant is saying that God will heal - but maybe not in this life. Then that is in agreement with Peters and Osman. It is according to God's will. Hence, the burden is lifted from the sick.
- The question is, WHAT IS THE POSITION of Brown and Storms? It wasn't clear at all/mushy. Storms actually says something like - when it is God's will, He gives you the gift to pray for someone and you know that they are healed, for that moment.
- SO, what is the issue? Both agreed: according to God's will. Both agree the healing was a provision/gift from God - when God wills it. So maybe the Cess group are not as Cess as you think.
Maybe the Contin group are not as Contin as often painted.
- This part of the discussion was inconsistent from the Contin camp - and would be good to flesh out in a segment on your show. Look at the whole segment though.
- Frankly, unfortunately, I think some use healing as a marketing tool, to tickle ears and or a scam to raise money.
I know an older lady who bought a prayer shoal from Benny Hinn ministry hoping to heal her dying husband (a lot of money, and she was poor on a pension). He died. She told me that she couldn't handle it if she hadn't done everything she could, this might have been the answer. THIS is what Peters is calling out - the false hope being peddled. eg. Hinn.
- Where is the marking of Hinn to protect the widow, the sheep from these predators? Brown, Storms and other significant leaders have been "not noticing" for years and seem to care more about the ministry or leader when challenged, than the carnage these false teachers or wolves cause. It is a direct biblical instruction to call out and mark the predators. That means names. The point of the discussion.
21m42s Suggesting Peters would dismiss the Lord and Apostles if he had the same skepticism as he has today? Argue with what Peters is saying, not what you imagine he might do. Peters and Osman both believe God heals and does miracles today, no question. Benny Hinn is not the Lord nor Apostle, and Peters skepticism of Hinn is validated. It's not apples and apples.
It's either they don't have enough faith, or they have unrepented sins, or that its his time to die. But if you ask God by faith, ask for forgiveness then God will heal you. If you only ask it by faith in Jesus' Name. And it's part of the atonement. The atonement brings salvation, healing, Sanctification, deliverance, Spirit Baptism, Spiritual Gifts, etc.
I think the comment was that peters said healing was immediate and at the same time the will of God whether to heal is a mystery. You can’t maintain both of those or else the apostles would have to say if it be your will at the same time it was happening immediately.
Hinn repented for the prosperity Gospel. Do you want God to hold your sins against you and hold records of wrong against you like you're doing to Benny Hinn?
You'll be shocked when he is in heaven.
@@jgilbert8432 right, cessationists has no right to discern because they're not Spirit-baptized, they don't accept the book of Acts, they are anti-supernatural in their experience, though in theology they may accept that God can heal but in experience they don't witness it, why? Because of unbelief. That's why there no Spiritual gifts in their churches, because they are perfectionists. God can't give His gifts to those who don't have faith for the miraculous. This is the age and dispensation of the Holy Ghost, God is still doing His works in our lives. Everything about Christianity is supernatural. We don't talk with eloquence of wisdom but with power according to Paul.
Amen Josh @48:00 ! Been saying that for years!
Maranatha
Only 15 mins in so far. Excellent discussion on healing. Beyond what one person says here or another says over there, it’s the truth that’s more important than anything and wrestling with these difficult topics is important.
Thank you for doing this and roundtable with all the views and opinions and thoughts and beliefs laid out without judgment. God bless you all. You are answering questions for me and making me think through why I am thinking the way I am…and I can see where I am in error, and I can see where I need to ask more questions of my Father for revelation to get to the bottom line regarding healing, which is His love for all, and his overall desire for us to be healed, whether it’s here Or Not? Thank you..
I can see why Sam and Michael were good people to have in that roundtable, but you 3 would have been just as good, if not better. Thanks again for your content.
That was a good word about trusting in a person not the outcome. Amen brother.
Great episode. Thank you!
A stand out of this round table is how Brown and Storms totally vouch for the integrity of Mike Bickle, they know his heart as a godly man. I feel sorry for Sam - they were besties. One of the main arguments from the Continueist camp is they can vouch (read the hearts) for certain leaders - ones raised by Peters, incl Bickle, Copeland, Hinn, Syd Roth. Sam and Brown were not going call them out, name them as false teachers because they cant read their heart and condemn them to hell. So, heart readers to vouch for Bickle, but can't heart read when it came to call out/mark.
Sam later says if what Peters is saying is true, then Hinn should be marked as a false teacher. Note this argument by Sam and Brown is not theological, but rather their personal opinion, view, feeling, discernment.
People seem to conflate colloquial expressions like "I know his heart" and "I looked into his eyes and saw his soul" with "the Spirit revealed this to me." I believe Storms and Brown were speaking colloquially, the way any person would. If we are close friends with someone for years, we feel we "know their heart." We are less likely to say that about people we know only from some distance. Gifts of the Spirit, including prophetic revelatory gifts, aren't activated by our will and choice. If the Spirit never spoke to them about Mike, they wouldn't know.
@@Norrin777Radd Agree, it is reasonable they didn't know their heart. However, they used this argument to not call out someone in error or a false teacher. We are called to examine what is said/their practice. Overseers have biblical qualifications/standards.
In what I expected to be a more theological discussion, I found it amazing they used the colloquial as an argument... making it sound a little more spiritual than what it actually was.
@@BeatriceLillian It seems reasonable to me. Storms and Brown do not know the names you listed on much of a close level. There are degrees of separation. They know what friends and friends of friends have stated about those people. They hold to the stance that "false teacher," as scripture uses term, refers to those who are not simply teaching serious error, but those who are not saved AND teaching serious error that is damnable. I understand their caution of using the label "false teacher" in the liberal manner that heresy hunters do. In contrast to the people they don't know on much of a personal level, Mike Brown spent some time with Bickle in person on multiple occasions. So Mike is speaking from what Bickle displayed to him on those occasions. I don't see that as a strike against Brown. The most discerning of Christians can be deceived by people at times. And Mike Brown has been clear and open that he didn't know that side of Bickle.
And across the span of 10 years, I've heard Mike Brown clearly and unabashedly call out the dangerous teachings from the likes of Hinn and Copeland in very strong and denouncing terms. So this is not a matter of Brown soft-balling the dangerous teachings coming from those in the Charismatic camp.
@@trenton9 Did Brown actually name Copeland and Hinn for their dangerous teachings? Or, just highlight the bad doctrine?
@@trenton9 The issue I had was that Brown and Storms said they could know/judge the hearts of teachers to vouch for them, but they could not know or judge the hearts of those they already recognised as in serious or even heretical error. Bickle showed they could not know the heart, fullstop. However, Scripture says to call out the wolves.... and the sheep need protecting. The carnage to the sheep in the meantime, does not seem to get priority. I am pleased Michael Brown has highlighted some of the excesses. He did say he was hesitant/did not want to name names. It wasn't his lane.
What do you guys believe this passage points to? I’ve understood this to mean that Faith is very important when pursuing to pray for the sick and casting out demon.
”Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”“
Matthew 17:19-20 ESV
Sounds an awful lot like faith is integral in receiving what God intends
What about being impressed or given insight that there is power to heal in a specific instance, rather than a blanket formula. Corinthians says the Spirit distributes as the Spirit wills, meaning, under the Spirit’s guidance and direction. That goes for all gifts.
I watched/listened to the entire 4 hr plus video, I highly recommend it. Well worth watching
4:02 maybe he ignores brown bc he’s not a Calvinist. Piper thinks the doctrines of TULIP are “glorious gospel truths” 🤔
I was thinkin same thing .. "Calvie Club"
Just on your closing comments regarding the will of God to heal and the perseverance of prayer for healing: I’m sure that you are very aware of Justin’s disability/condition. Justin has prayed and asked God to heal him on many, many occasions (only Justin and God know how many) + Justin has had thousands of faithful brothers and sisters pray for him over the years. Justin had also earlier on gone to charismatic meetings and sought prayer there earlier in his life. If that’s not persevering, I don’t know what is? Yet, Justin is not healed. Many others are in Justin’s position (and worse). I worked with a severely disabled young person- who often prayed and was prayed for (and continues to this day) - yet she goes on living her life without healing.
So, I don’t understand your take on perseverance prayer leading to healing in this life in the case of Justin and the girl I mentioned. People in these cases (and there are many throughout the world) have perseverance in prayer but are not healed. This (I think) is where Justin is coming from.
Regarding the healing theology that Bethel is known for, I’ve never heard it articulated better than by Pastor Dan Mohler. He also believes it’s always Gods will to heal and also leaves some mystery but does put the responsibility essentially on the person praying, not the sick person. I’d love you guys to do an episode on his teaching about healing - there are few people more eloquent about the theology of healing and the gospel of the Kingdom than Dan Mohler!
So why couldn’t Jesus do miracles in his home town?
@@KristenFamularocoz of unbelief
@@kellentiaI know that, that’s my point. I’m making the point that Dan Mohler is wrong. Jesus had enough faith, and was the one praying soooo…
@@KristenFamularoI think that passage has more to do with the people's lack of faith in Jesus as Lord and cannot be used to say today that healings don't occur because of recipients lack of faith of being healed. I think the people's lack of faith was in Jesus himself as their saviour and actually their downright rejection of him. That's very different to those people today who DO believe in Christ but are struggling with doubt that God will heal them. It's really unhelpful and unbiblical to put all this pressure on those people and just say they need more faith. We don't need in faith in Jesus to heal. We just need faith in Jesus himself.
Agreed! Love Dan’s teaching on healing
Even Kenneth hagin the so-called founder of Word of Faith, rejected the idea of indwelling gifts of healing to use on demand. He taught people not to command healing as if the gift was inside of them at all times and instead wait for the unction or manifestation or leading of the spirit before acting upon a gift of the spirit including healing on command.
That said, I don't think the gift of healing is limited to a command, I think the gift of healing can work through anyone willing to pray for and/or lay hands on the sick.
That's true.
I don't think it's the gift that's indwelling to use on command. The Holy Spirit clearly is indwelling, but he's a person and probably doesn't like to be ordered around even it's within the will of God, the way you go about things matters in scripture also.
That is exactly true re Kenneth Hagin
@@MsBellsandy exactly. It's as the Spirit wills. Meaning the Spirit of God will lead us when to lay hands and command..other than that, pray the pray of faith like commanded in James.
But Kenneth Hagin also taught that whether or not the Gifts were in manifestation, you can stand on the Word of God in Faith for healing
According to James 5, it can be the person praying who has sin which prevents the healing. “Therefore, confess your sins and pray for one another that you may be healed.” So that’s another possibility other than the faith of the recipient.
I want to suggest a question and it hit me awhile back, can a doctor have the gift of healing combined with the gift of knowledge? I tend to think that the Spirit of God works through natural and the supernatural. Also in being an empath in reasoning, I keep thinking Peters relies too much in his reasoning in having his disability of cerebral palsy never healed by a faith healer. In watching the movie Breakthrough, there is another struggle if you are miraculously healed. John A Smith in the movie had to deal with the question why others weren't healed near the end of it.
I wish the American Gospel guys had chosen a name whose abbreviation could not be so easily confused with Assemblies of God.
Amen!
That, and as I've seen discussion on Mike Buckle and IHOPKC, the Advocate Group is referred to as AG as well.
Is it wrong to believe that, it is Always God's desire to heal but due reasons known only to Him, not all are healed just like in 1 Tim 2:4 He desires all to be saved but we clearly see not all are saved? Can this be true without there being any antinomy?
I don't necessarily believe it's God's will to heal EVERYONE but certainly most if not most all. So yea I think you're on to something.
If you're a calvinist/ baptist etc. than anything in the Bible that shows that God's will is not ALWAYS accomplished 100% of the time is a "glitch" of sorts however.
No it’s not, God wounds and heals He makes the blind and the def, He kills and makes alive.
It is wrong to believe that because God wounds and heals, God kills and makes alive, God makes the def the mute and the blind.
@@saved6655 I don't necessarily disagree with you entirely and I do believe this is a complicated issue but how does your opinion stated above comport with Acts 10:38 which says that Jesus healed all who were oppressed of the devil (not all who were oppressed by God the Father).
@@ModernMozart1104 yea maybe help me out here a little, Jesus tells Peter “Peter Peter satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat” so obviously satan had to have permission. Like with job God says to satan have you thought of my servant job. Satans response is no you have a hedge of protection around him. Then when he took his children job says God gives life and takes life. And when job gets sick he tells his wife how shall we not accept good and bad from God. And Paul gets a messenger of (not from) satan to keep him from exulting himself. I’d say God have him that messenger.
Well dang, now I'm going to have to make sure I signed that "Prophetic Standards" statement. Having Rosey call me a heretic is on my bucket list.
Hey Remnant Team. Please do a cast on discussing the difference between Faith and Believe / Belief. This subject is the missing link as to explaining healing from God.
I get that people don’t get healed, I don’t ever think that’s cause it’s not Gods will, he already said it’s His will and He had healing as part of the atonement. I think this world has sufferings because we’re not fully redeemed yet. The issue I have with the two will of God thing, is how in the world can you really believe someone can be healed when you’re praying for them? Faith isn’t always why we don’t get healed but scripturally it’s a part of it! I love these kind of convos!
I love using our minds and love the Holy Spirit- I get the different sides. We have to be careful too not be too koo koo but always not to overthink ourselves to death. Lord Help!
I’m happily learning a lot lately about Christianity from channels like this. So I’m genuinely asking in here. I see a lot of intelligent insight, so bare with me but I have a question:
So let’s say a father has a child who is extremely sick and dying. That father discovers a cure for his child. No side effects, pure healing. Healed and it never happened. So he announces, “It’s not my will to heal my child I’ve chosen not to administer the cure because….” Now what would be a reason he could give that we would all say yeah that checks out I can respect that? How would we answer this question to non believers without mental gymnastics or recycled responses about the mysteries of Gods will? Something concrete and pragmatic?
I completely agree. This is a warped religious view of our heavenly Father because we do not understand Him or spiritual matters. I think there are spiritual laws (like faith vs unbelief, sin vs repentance, coming into agreement with people and ideas, etc.) that we don't fully understand and that open doors for spiritual attack. Then we blame God because he is "unwilling to heal." Like sticking our hands in the light socket and blaming the electric company. I highly recommend books by Watchman Nee. Also, Brian Fenimore has very good teachings on these things.
Ultimately I don’t think anyone can answer a specific instance with 100% knowledge of what’s happening spiritually. Idk. In the book of Daniel it says the archangel was delayed getting to him to answer his prayer. IDK, something’s we have to walk by faith
The continued gifts of healings and the miraculous are rooted in God's nature! He is Healer, and for the other gifts, he has always desired to do his work in a partnership with his people. His nature hasn't changed, so why would he cease to give these gifts to and through his people?
Way to go guys. Keep sharing ALL the relevant scriptures, not just cherry picked ones
If you remove all of the mysteries of God and replace it with logic, is there any need for faith?
The mystery of God was revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. The mystery that the Bible speaks of was the old testament prophecies that the Messiah would come. Once the Messiah came and was revealed to be Jesus Christ of Nazareth, there is no more mysteries that Christians have to wrestle with.
God isn’t out to confuse us with riddles.
So, according to Michael, Jesus is prayer in the garden is meant to teach us to pray for the impossible? Where is he getting the stuff from?
No, I do not believe that is what he meant at all...I believe he may have been looking at Jesus' prayer can be seen in deeper level...
Great episode and commentary.
We debate so much as Christians there's always a hint of selfishness, us wanting to be right about a belief we hold.
All I know is this
God can heal
God has not stopped healing ( He can still heal a broken heart, and set a captive free)
God does not always heal
God does not always work in our timing
The most importantly, sometimes we just don't understand.
And guess what, we have to live with that. We don't always get the answers, and that's okay
He is God
We are not
And he is in by no means obligated to let us in on what he's doing...
It's all about faith
Will you trust him whether someone's healed or not?
Because trusting in Him not the outcome is all that matters
This is the best answer, I was healed very slowly over the course of 3.5 years. I was always asking why, what are you doing Lord, why cant I just be instantly healed. He has a purpose for it (that he later revealed) that work to glorify his name to a greater magnitude than if he had just instantly healed it.
I have doubts about anyone that attaches some additional adjective to themselves in describing themself as a follower of Jesus Christ: "Evangelical Christian", "Charismatic Christian", "Spirit Filled Christian", Pentecostal Christian"...
I’m a cessationist but I enjoyed watching the round table
For clarification (since the chat limits the number of characters), in the final comment of mine that you responded to, I was trying to explain the implications of Bethel's position; if it's always God's will to heal, and if he's already done everything possible for your healing 2,000 years ago, and any lack of healing is a lack on our end of the equation... then their view of the gift of healing is no longer dependent on the sovereignty of God and His will. It's now all about what we do to get that breakthrough, and suggests that the gift of healing is now in our hands and authority. Bethel teaches that God has given us the authority (dominion) to speak miracles (since we're created in God's image, we have the same creative power with our words), and do the same or greater works than Jesus did. This is the version of continuationism that Justin Peters is most often responding to when he makes comments about a person's ability to heal someone via the gift of healing. In practice, both sides of this debate believe the same thing about healing (it's up to God's sovereign will), but one calls it a gift, the other calls it an answer to prayer.
yeah... pretty much agree with you on all the above. Those are the things that infuriate me about Bethel. They don't represent me. I'd go a step further and say that their spiritual abuses tend towards protecting the powerful rather than the weak.
@@michaelmiller5024 thank you for stating this. I truly appreciate and respect the way you walk out your faith on this show. We really do need more people to speak on this.
Yeah but they do represent a lot of people that remnant defends. just so sad. It represents a lot of the people remnant hosts. Heidy? Diga? Really?@@michaelmiller5024
As a Pentecostal Christian I agree with you about bethel they preach a super anointed type faith that in a way puts people on a pedestal rather than glorifying the Lord,,I believe it’s heretical but that’s just my opinion I also don’t believe that God heals on demand He’s not a genie so it’s truly a touchy subject I personally believe He heals because I’ve personally experienced It and I’ve seen it in others lives but I do understand why cessationists may be so against it as well after listening to Peter’s I see his pov now and I’m glad we can have a conversation about God and His glory 🙏
Sickness is in the family of Death--sickness being a precursor--death being the product of sin.
Excellent conversation. Bottom line, God wants us to ask him for healing. We don't have to tack on "if it be your will" if our heart is already submissive to his will. And God will show us if or when the time comes to stop asking. So, the frequency of asking is a case by case basis.
"Thy will be done" is part of the Lord's prayer...
Agreed Jesus says that when we pray we should pray this.
Odd even when he knows he adds “thy will be done” he just contradicts himself there
Even Benny Hinn said I don't know why God doesn't heal everyone.
Benny Hinn doesn’t know a lot of things.
That’s cuz Benny should’ve had them on the take.
There is a mystery which does exceed understanding
36:43 Justin using the Lords prayer for his main example is like you using Job for your main example. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think there is scripture to support that God not only allows but creates affliction. Am I wrong in this?
It's God's will that non perish not that all be healed physically only spiritually
I was told at Bethel that it was my fault I wasn't being healed while I was there AT BETHEL. I had a swollen finger and the doctors didn't know why it was swollen. I went to Bethel for prayer and wasn't healed ....but I was absolutely gaslite.
Is that the belief and teaching of bethel church/Bill Johnson OR single individuals acting independently. Because thos is NOT the teaching of Pastor Bill Johnson.
11:49 yet the same content still remains on his platform
Great points presented and tons of issues on both sides of the healing argument.
//on both sides of the argument and tons of issues//.Having several sides to an argument as vitally important as healing is not helpful at all.If were crystal clear what Gods will was for healing then there would be no need for these debates.
Faith in the person of Jesus Christ, not the outcome. Love that!
IF the Charis camp called out the rubbish (eg. grave soaking) and made a proper category distinction, then the discussion would already have nuance (which Remnant had an issue with). I think the main argument by Cessationists camp is that Contin generally do not called out/separated from the wolves or heretics. Their point was why are the Contin camp so hesitant to call out false teachers or heresy or abuse by name in the discussion? Remnant folk are content to separate themselves from more extreme (eg. grave soaking, tarot cards) - saying they are not the rest of Charismatic world. Then why not mark those who practice extreme/heresy - and make a category/nuance distinction yourselves?
Preach it Josh!!
I just can't understand a christian arguing against praying for God's will to be done.... It's not just one prayer in the Bible. It's the overarching message: The tree of life vs. the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Isaac vs. Ishmael, grace vs. the law. Each of these is trusting God's will vs. trying to do it ourselves (our own will). Though we don't hear Jesus's prayers when he heals, we do know he is walking in full submission to the will of the Father: John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38, 8:26, 10:18, 12:49-50, 14:30-31, and 15:10.
Calling the "continuationist position" a "serious issue" as though it were a "serious error" that only causes significant damage to the body of Christ is truly incredible. The cessessionist position isn't doubly as harmful?
Cessationism is extremely serious. They are denying the gifts/work of the Holy Spirit.
So, is it better having people buying prayer shoals from Benny Hinn for healing? Or give $$$ to show you are serious with God and have faith for God to heal you by the person with the gift of healing on the stage?
@@User_Happy35 So the Holy Spirit does not work for a Cess, even though promised as our seal, comfort, guide, strength, .... gives us faith, repentance, ... Maybe they are not as Cessationist as you imagine.
@@BeatriceLillian That's not continuationism. That's disgusting spiritual abuse that the strong majority of continuationists think is abhorrent.
I'm not trying to be mean-spirited on the internet but what you are presenting is a straw-man argument as it entirely misrepresents my position.
@@ModernMozart1104 Peters made a distinction about who he was critiquing. It is the more extreme NAR and WoF - like Hinn, Copeland. So my prayer shawl example was not such a straw man for what he was illustrating. When I lived in Nth America, televangelists were flogging healing miracles on cable TV 24/7, in Africa churches and self appointed apostles were flogging miracles. Poor people in need are asked to give to show God they are serious if they wanted their miracle, Phil Pringle of C3 Australia is an example. I am grateful for the many Charis churches that are not like that, but there are many that are. I've been to them.
This AG7 discussion review was limited to healing (gift) where there ended up being a lot in common (esp after hearing Sam Storms case).
- Both camps believe God heals, and He does miracles today. It is a work of the Holy Spirit.
- Both camps believe in praying for the sick. .
- Both camps know God doesn't heal everyone when prayed for, even after iterations of prayer.
- Both camps believe the person is healed according to God's will - however:
- -- Cess camp prays saying, at the start, IF it is God's will.
- -- Cont camp prays saying, at the start, it IS God's will, and whether healed or not, then say it is according to God's will (according to Storms).
- Cont camp (Storms) says the gift can come on someone to pray for a sick person, for that circumstance, when God wants to heal that person. Then is goes.
- Both camps agree God doesn't give someone a gift of healing permanently that the person can turn on and off like at will.
(Is Storms presenting the majority position?)
So there's not so much disagreement. However, it is a serious issue (relating to Contin position):
a. When incorrect teaching - if ppl think they are at fault or God that doesn't love them or they haven't proved themselves enough to God for Him to heal, haven't been to the miracle meeting, didn't have enough faith, haven't given enough, should have bought the prayer shawl, not mature enough as a Christian, too carnal thinking and not spirit minded enough, ...
b. When incorrect practice - Hinn, miracle healing rallies, buy your miracle... saying God will heal you, when it is not promised now, though God can heal you now.
Can you state the Contin position on the gift of healing for me please? Is it different to above? How is the Cess position extra harmful?
I see you would probably like to disassociate from a portion of Charis NAR and WoF abuse types or theology. The portion size of the heretical or abusive group can be argued, but it is not insignificant.
Having gone from Cont churches to Cess churches, I am impressed by the faith and trust some Cess bros and sisters have in the provision of God and how much He does heal. Contrary to what I expected, I didn't see much difference in outcome. I also experienced Contin churches mocking trad churches as dead religion, religious, lacking the Holy Spirit, carnal Christians, boring, immature, dying... That's also very divisive and can fuel wrong ideas.
And you are not being mean spirited. Glad you are happy to call out the abhorrent too. Cheers
Almost all discussions concerning the gifts of the Spirit usually surround the gift of healing or prophesy. What about the other gifts of the Spirit like word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits. What about tongues and interpretation of tongues. I would like to hear how cessationist view these gifts. I know they also reject tongues and prophesy but what about the others? I do agree however that it is not always God's will to heal, I do believe that God will allow or even cause sickness to bring about another outcome. Sometimes He uses it to bring correction or as judgment as in the case of Jezebel in the book of Revelation, and even in the case of Job, or in the case of Moses' sister who was struck with leprosy for her attack on Moses. God healed her when Moses prayed but she was judged by God in that way. Bill Johnson and other charismatics teach that God never causes or uses sickness. Josh I also agree with you about many in the Charismatic world going astray in these days. Many are biting the dust and I believe God is cleaning his house.
When anybody points to Paul's thorn in the flesh as to why somebody isn't healed I think the FIRST question needs to be WHAT GREAT REVELATIONS they have been given that they needed God to keep them humble. Because that is what happened to Paul correct?
I used to be afraid of getting sick because I might not have enough faith in God to heal me. That was a result of the theology/teaching.
Wow. And it's mostly from the continuist camp unvetted practices which step out of sound doctrine very easily. Which push much mystical ideas away from text in the name of God and Jesus. It's scary because it can deceive anyone into a damnable hope in such things resulting in a road to hell. Our hope is Christ and that's it even if in this life we don't receive healing ALL OF US STILL DIE. but what is the hope over all into eternal life, it's in Christ the path which is narrow and only few find it. Examine yourself whether you are in the faith. Set your heart on things above. Men are like grass or the flower in the field. Pray In love that you're better or by God's will get healing but also hope in Christ more than anything
No That was a result of Fear
Fear is the Devil trying to keep us from faith
Healing at what expense? Do all who get healed, receive Christ? Not even some in the Bible turned to give God thanks. Also, there were many who turned away from Jesus. What do you think we should be truly seeking after?
If Dr. Brown likes them, then they are not a false preacher. If Dr. Brown likes them, then their false prophecies shouldn’t even matter.
What does “believe that you receive, and it will be yours” mean? I mean healing and anything else in biblical promises is predicated on believing you receive- no? So the responsibility is on us… no mystery.
That kind of turns faith into a work and diminishes grace.
It also ignores the fact that in this age we have the "first fruits" and "down payment," not the full benefits.
Finally, that promise in context is linked to the "mountain-moving faith" promise, and so brings up an uncomfortable tension in Scripture: In the mountain-moving (or tree-moving) passages in the Gospels, the promises seem to be available to all believers, basically at the will of the believers themselves; but 1 Cor. 12-13 suggest that "mountain-moving faith" is a gift of the Spirit, and so that kind of faith is only at our disposal when the Spirit wills it.
Nice neon sign Miller!!!!!
I recently finished the Cessationist review (episode 2, particularly) and at the end, Rowntree implies that a lack of faith is the reason for a low level of healing in Western Christianity. Yet it seems that’s not the stance he/you all are claiming at the beginning of this video. Can you help me understand the discrepancy?
Here's a really big problem for me, is that say with bethel we can't trust what's coming from the pulpit, so how in the world is it that they rule the world of Christian music that has amplified they're bad teachings across the globe.
SOMEONE NEEDS TO PUT A STOP TO IT!!
Hot Take: 47:40 through 48: 35
God is not the author of confusion. I believe it's up to each individual believer to pray for healing(Jehovah Rapha), James 5, but also recognize God is Sovereign. Don't forget that Jesus also taught about praying while fasting.
I always think of King Hezekiah. Jacob walked with a limp the rest of his life. God always has reasons for healing or not. Some things take a lot of persistent prayer to move the Father's heart. Love Josh's quote of placing trust in the one who can above the actual event. Whether it's healing, provision, etc.
You’re not gonna get a good sense of what this conversation was by watching this review. one of the most disappointing things was the inability of either side to call someone a heretic when they are obviously a heretic for instance not calling Hinn or Copeland a heretic and not calling Luther a heretic for promoting the death of Jews.
A historical record from a time period in which you have not fleshed out the context is an extremely unscholarly approach to a quote. It is much easier for us to understand a quote from someone today and what they meant than someone hundreds of years ago. That does not excuse Luther in any sense but the comparison is apples and oranges. Just as is comparing someone who is LONG passed vs someone still speaking today. Only one of those can be confronted, as Luther rightfully was heavily in his time by many.
I share your disappointment with the inability to call balls and strikes against their own teams, however. Dr. Brown phrased it in such a way (as unfairly as I thought it was) that should have been easy for Peters camp to be against and it goes without saying the defense of Bickle and others by Storms camp was sad to watch. Of course these guys (RR) aren't going to "review" those other sections. Very convenient for them.
Dan Mohler is an excellent teacher on healing among other stuff.
I honestly don't know who we will see in heaven. I don't think the purpose of judging people is to determine who will be there or not. I think the purpose is to discern the truth from the lies so rhat we stay on the path of truth.
Send me the link for that sign. I'm a hermit also.
Amen on the Bethel statements
.
So much giggling on this episode? Then It can’t be such a serious topic for these 3 guys.
This comment and like proofs the internet sucks.
You obviously do not follow them...if you did you would understand the value of their friendship...and having fun is not opposite of being serious
@@ChadGrindstaff Chad, this isn’t a motorcycle or a Saturday night life type of channel , it’s called REMNANT RADIO.
C H A D…now that’s funny
@@c.wilke7649 why would I follow clowns who discuss in laughter serious life and death topics such as false pastors who lead astray people seeking the life in the true God ? If you had a possible cancer diagnosis would you visit a doctor who is known to laugh throughout reviewing their patient’s diagnosis ?
Let’s think through this for a moment. Storms and Brown supported Mike Bickle for decades claiming that they were using the gift of discernment to know that what MB was claiming to do was the product of a true prophetic word. Storms and Brown were found to be massively deceived.
Peters and Osman (which some claim are devoid of the Holy Spirit) examined the Scriptures and stood on the Scriptures and strongly proclaimed that based on Scriptural evidence that MB was a false prophet, and his ministry should not be followed or trusted.
The Christian world is now again, seeing the value of searching the Scriptures, and standing firmly on the word of God over any kind of feeling or hunch, or someone, claiming to have a prophetic word. And there has been a progressive devaluing of the Bible by charismatics for several decades now. And we are now seeing the evidence in the product of devaluing scripture.
What is you guys view of John Lake ministries/Curry Blake, when it comes to healing?
Healing comes in many forms, we can believe God can heal but sometimes it’s in this life and sometimes it’s in the life to come, but grant it both are healings, think we forget that when we expect it to be here and now
Praying for healing appears to miss the point. In Acts 9:39-41, Peter prayed for himself, and then spoke in authority and rose the dead.
Appreciate all that you guys do week in and week out - thank you.
Thoughts below from today’s podcast and my view on healing:
Trophimus and Epaphroditus were “left sick”, but that doesn’t mean they were never healed, it just means they weren’t healed at the time Paul departed.
It’s highly unlikely, given that the word “thorn”referred to persecutions and hardships in the OT, that Paul’s “thorn” was a physical malady.
As you guys referenced, people can limit the will and desires of God, including healing, through sin and unbelief.
Agree and great points on the “if it be your will” words of Jesus.
There is such a thing as sickness unto death (as you already know) and no amount of faith, anointing, or gifting seems to heal the “sickness unto death”.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever and he healed all who came to him.
As such, I believe that unless it is a sickness unto death, it is the will of Jesus to heal all sickness and infirmity.
Lastly, am in full pursuit of a ministry that looks like the ministry of Jesus.
You guys are the best!
22:50 ...did Roundtree just paraphrase Furtick's controversy about "God broke the law"? ❤😊
I read all the ref to prayer in the NT. Only 2x did scripture say. To pray for healing. James 5, Acts 28. There are other times that the apostles prayed to God before they healed. We’re they praying for themselves? For faith? For God’s will? After they prayed, they “Spoke” to the condition and it changed.
So it appears to me healing happens on a few levels: the person believing in Jesus, the healer’s gift and faith, God’s perfect and permissive will.
We can’t force God to heal anyone it is completely up to God in every case I do agree with Peter’s on this,,I may not look eye to eye with the doctrines of men that divide us but who God is and what His nature is I will always be willing to agree with and understand a cessationists point of view about the healing,,I believe it’s a very touchy subject and shouldn’t be mishandled by pastors especially when speaking to younger believers 🙏💯
I think it’s odd how we refuse to assume any blame on our end for not being healed. Like we are offended that we could be the problem. While I don’t think we should condemn people we should also be honest and honestly scripture does testify to our all things being possible to him who believes.
The Charis theology is often healing is in the atonement, and it's about faith and God's love. How else does someone think when they are sick, not healed over years, and those on the stage boast and testify to healing, good health, the love of God and faith in Him to heal? Those on stage regularly boast a gift of healing or at healing events - but if the person doesn't get healed, often they have to deal with the burden of why God doesn't heal them. It can't be God, because He can and healing is in the atonement. So it must be me.
Or the person who is praying.
I'm exhausted from this diabolical suffering and don't want to do it anymore! I have no answers or help .... 💔😩😵😭
Matthew 8:16!
I thought “by His stripes were healed” was a promise to the believer. We don’t always get healed just like we don’t all get saved. It’s still God’s will that “none shall perish”.
There is always 'healing,' but there may not be a 'cure' on this side of the eschaton.
The gift of healing is talked about every time I'm with the Bethel folks. That's not a true statement. They teach and preach that individuals have the gift of healing.
Something I think that's missing from the discussion about the first clip... people mistakenly assume the will of God is always automatically accomplished. (And this isn't a calvinist/arminian issue). There are multiple layers to the will of God. And the will of God is not always accomplished.
For instance, it is the will of God concerning you that you abstain from fornication, it is the will of God that you rejoice always, it is Jesus will that the church strive together in unity pursuing peace with one another and holiness. But the will of God does not always come to pass in this degree. People (even saved christians) die outside of this aspect of the will of God all the time.
So, to say that it is always God's will to heal all the time is not a false statement nor is it a cause for shame to those who do not receive healing. There are many factors that hinder healing. But even "not having enough faith" is not something that we should shame people for being victim to. It certainly can be the factor for not receiving. But we by mercy and grace seek to restore that unbelieving brother to turn to faith in the living God who's name is Healing and who has healing in his wings, who answered the centurion (a Pagan heathen), I WILL.
It is always God's will to heal because it is his nature to heal, restore, redeem, and issue life to the dead.
Admittedly most charismatic pentecostals don't have the circumference of language to describe and articulate the various aspects of the will of God, which is why we need people endowed with teaching gifts (people like Peters and MacArthur) to embrace the current realities of the Spirit - so that the saints may be better equipped to do the work ofnthe ministry; which is to destroy the works of the devil (death, disease, destruction, etc), and restore all things to the subjection under the headship of Christ.
Exactly! There are many factors that can prevent healing. And also its important to define faith. Because many times people think that they have ( had) faith but in fact it was not faith, but hope or feelings. So what IS faith and how does it work?
It's knowing, believing and applying the scriptures ( promises about healing for example)in your life. And not so much with your mind but from the heart.
And faith can come from the person who ministers healing, or from the person who need healing or even from a third person who is present. We have examples of all 3 in the bible. But faith is the key, without faith it's impossible to please God.
Then there is a difference between an instant healing and a gradual healing. And sometimes healing takes place after a long time, can even be years. Why? We often don't know, but the person who is healed wont bother about it. But is happy and grateful.
When healing is not happening we should never blame God or doubt His will to heal, because there are more than enough scriptures that proof that's His will to heal.
But instead we should ask ourselves where we missed it and keep growing and become more and more Christlike. Then we will see more and more the results that He had in healing the people: healing ALL that came to Him!
Blessings from the Netherlands.
@@margreethakkerman4026 amen. Saving faith vs living faith. "All things for life and godliness"
is michael rountree a calvinist?!
Yup
The day healing ministries admit that God doesn't always heal is the day they cut their $$$. That's why they don't preach it because they are in it only for the money.
Lots of healing ministers refuse to take money from people.
@@rhoadesian I am speaking of the ones who do.
Name three ..
Lots??@@rhoadesian
sure, Curry Blake, Shawn Hurley, Randy Clarke - I mean there are so many people out there who minister healing just in house churches, Wednesday night services, get togethers. I think it's easy to think that everyone is like the few negative examples that we've seen but it's not the case. Some people minister the gifts of the Spirit with great character and for that I am grateful. @@kevinlarkin2696