Surviving a Toxic Church: Victims of IHOP Speak Out
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Join Remnant Radio as we delve into a profound and heart-wrenching conversation with Shari Hall, Elizabeth Herder, and Jen Roberts, who share their personal experiences of abuse and manipulation at the International House of Prayer (IHOP). This in-depth interview reveals the systemic issues and toxic culture that pervaded IHOP, highlighting stories of exploitation, favoritism, and the emotional and spiritual toll on those involved. Each woman offers a unique perspective on their journey, the impact on their lives, and their courageous steps toward healing and raising awareness. This episode is a crucial narrative for anyone seeking to understand the dark undercurrents within religious institutions and the resilience of those who speak out against them.
If you missed Part 1, you can watch it here: • Behind the Scenes at I...
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The LORD is purifying His bride. It's painful to watch 😔 but so very necessary. May we all be wiser and more humble for what is happening all around us.
@@suechristy363 i
If that’s true the Lord is sure taking his time. This has been going on for hundreds of years and so far the church hasn’t learned a thing. When this blows over Mike Bickle will pop up somewhere else all with the support of his worshippers and “Gods Blessing.”
Unfortunately, most of the leaders in the Body are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They aren’t part of the bride, they are wounding the sheep and causing them to fall away. This is the fruit of apostasy not purification. For those who are His, it will ultimately be for their good. For those who aren’t His, it will be His judgement. How so many “Spirit-filled” people (including major leaders) totally lack discernment about these issues and individuals it is mind-boggling. This isn’t refinement but Him vomiting 🤮 people out of His mouth. More to come…
I was in consecutive different churches where these scenarios happened to me repeatedly. Newly on the worship team, then suddenly, with no explanation, off. Second guessing my own motives & rending my own heart repeatedly. Healing some, then hurting again. Getting hurt again. Trying to communicate with leadership & having it turned on me alone. “You have Daddy issues.” said by my pastor in response to me coming to do the difficult task of airing out what’s really going on. Bc this has happened in many ministries I’ve been in, I don’t attend church anymore. I know it’s Biblical to be in fellowship & I keep my real Christian friends who I trust in my circle & give them encouragement too. I’ve had to re-navigate how to pray, worship, & relate to others transparently. I so often felt & still feel, guilty. I am healing listening to you today! In prayer today, before listening I was just sharing how thankful I am to God for what He’s done & is doing. I’m launching out in a new business & seeing new relationships develop in my life that are enriching & encouraging me in my strengths & creative endeavors that were given by God to use to encourage others too! I felt something break open my hard heart. Softening & melting it. Then I listened to this right after. I’ve grieved over this for years. No one has said anything to me to ask what happened. Sometimes I’ve felt invisible in the world, & more importantly, in the body of Christ. Even invisible to God! I am coming back to the truth that I am seen & heard by God.
Thank you for sharing this. I can completely relate. I've been out of church for years also.
God bless you sister ❤
💓💔💓
This resonates strongly with me. Of course, I don't share your exact history, but the way you've had to navigate the harmful dysfunction you were exposed to is so relatable. I never stopped loving God or the church, but there is a stigma on those who've had to set such boundaries with the general institutions (I won't say it's necessarily the true Body; God will reveal in his timing). In my case, it has been a relief and joy that He has given back to us some of our formerly scattered community. This gives me real hope for the corporate Church to which it seems you and I both belong. I pray that he glorifies his Name by establishing his Bride in truth, love, and godly fear, which is the beginning of real wisdom ❤ Shalom, friend.
@@cathyulrichify
50 years ago, the same thing happened to me and my family. We met with the Pastor and his wife to talk about our disturbing experiences in church (Many were very similar as the ones described by the women in this podcast.) Why are all of our experiences the same? 50 years apart and in a different town and a different church. I agree it’s systemic..During the meeting we were met with Indignant denial. After the meeting we left the church. We were labeled as heretics and and in rebellion. People were told to stay away from us. And they did.
Within 6 months it was exposed that the Pastor had been preying on and having sex with multiple women in the church. We’re we vindicated? No. No one ever came and apologized. We were never Restored. We didn’t get any counseling. We didn’t get to go on a sabbatical at an undisclosed location all expenses paid. We didn’t get to take off work and “Seek the Lord”. We didn’t get offered a position in another church in a “Better part of the Country”. We didn’t get to move up and move on and prosper on the Payroll. We were left in our home town isolated and alone. With no where to go and no one we could go to for help. These pastors and these systems stick together… the roots and the tentacles ore far reaching. 50 years later and now it’s all covered over and labeled as “His Ministry Failure”. We are still not allowed to speak of it as it would be gossip, slander, unforgivness and God Forbid, BITTERNESS on our part. His faithful followers continued on in the church he left behind. They now hold all the positions he and his wife and family did. The legacy continues. The paid vacations, travel, salaries, connections within the body have grown and prospered. Meanwhile many are left outside the camp. Forgotten.
Is IHOPKC Special? Unfortunately NO….How can these women’s Stories match so close to yours and mine and thousands of others?
Is Mike Bickle some gifted genius able to Trick Thousands of people into blindly following him? Did he Mastermind this all by himself! NO! He’s had a lot of help…
He’s a garden variety Narcissist drawn to the same Man Made Machine by his desire to be famous and have power over people.
These churches are not churches.
Until this is dealt with, there will continue to be thousands of wounded and destroyed Christian’s left to wander by themselves. I wish someone would go after the Lost Sheep.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Totally understand why you or anyone doesn't want to attend church anymore. We are the Church, menbers of the Body , but it can be so diffocult to find genuine,loving connection and fellowship.. and we get told 'no church is perfect..'
It is NOT too much to expect to be treated lovingly and with integrity! Too many abusive leaders in my life as well, and I see them thriving, no matter how they took advantage of people's pain and sensitivity.. I do forgive my former pastors, but trust is another thing. Forgiveness does not equal trust.
No church to go at the moment, as I don't want to be treated as invisible and an oddball again.
May the Father if all comfort send real fellowship your way, and may He make Himself known to you deeply.
I was a worship singer in a small church that operated like IHOP. If we sang too well, the pastor would publicly admonish us for putting on a performance. Sick shaming was rampant. If I had an illness, a smug person would rave about how they were delivered of it when they got saved! If we felt hurt or left out, it’s because we were selfish. It was horrible and peaked during the pandemic. We left just about a week before shutdowns. I really have not felt comfortable in a church since. If I am honest, since doing home church, I feel closer to Christ and we are not apologizing for it. A lot more happened. I feel badly for those that stayed. It was really a terrible place. Thank you for sharing your experiences and for also taking some ownership. It’s not all on you, but we who were in these types of situations often participated in the evil ways without trying. I also repent for believing lies about people in my old church and for anything that I did to hurt others.
"The prayer room is an idol." 🎯
My husband and I were at IHOP 2001-2007. My husband was Full Time Staff & I towards the end of our time was prayer room staff. We had 4 little kids and we survived on barely any money. I had no idea that any of this was going on while we were apart of this ministry!! Or else we would have left IHOP ! I have struggled & been SHOCKED with hearing so much of the behind the scenes of what actually happened! Thank you so much for bringing all this to the light!!!I really appreciate you all inviting these ladies to speak the REAL truth! Although it’s hard to hear, it’s so necessary in our own healing process.
You are speaking truth and truth DOES set us free. Thank you
I know someone who went through the ihop school and fasted so much they developed gastrointestinal problems. They were encouraged to fast as much as possible and stay up all night in the prayer room. Meanwhile they had a job during the day. They lived at poverty level while they were there.
😢🙏
Wow that’s terrible. God bless your friend ❤
It is sad that personal discernment wasn’t cultivated. Pushing people to the point of hurting themselves is not of God.
@@experimentalbaker It’s sad that THESE STORIES are not investigated and restitution and restoration brought to all people destroyed by this place.
It is abuse
Thank you so much for talking about this again and again🙏🏻🤍
I am from Germany and part of an evangelical church and it shocks me, that they never once talked about this issue here... there are churches that are directly linked to the teaching of the prayer movement and it would be so very important to reflect apon possible abusive structures within the very DNA of their own tradition.
Gateway church really operates the same way when it comes to hiring and repositioning people. Please look into this. I used to work there and it was very cultish.
Yep, completely
Jimmy Evans stated that he left Gateway because leadership was dishonest and toxic.
@@larrybateman1738I missed this. Any articles or videos about it?
I don’t know any real believers who have not been wounded.
75 y.o. Saved 1971 (truly met Yeshua and it changed my life forever). 2010 left the building, my faith in tact but done with churchianity. It felt like some kind of high school social club. Superficial. All the real relationships I had had in almost 40 years in the building (and we had many) were made by just investing in relationships. Can barely remember (well maybe one) person I felt may have been a real pastor to us.
I left desiring the real deal. That’s been about 14+ years ago. Foraged for fellowship for about 5 years then found a home-group. Now I would say I have more of the real deal.
All I miss in Sunday morning churchianity is corporate worship (I was a worship leader for about 15 years and loved it).
Seems Doug Perry in that area had been saying for a while things were not right at IHOP.
I’m looking on from a distance so I don’t know enough about him either.
There is a pruning going on. This is sad. Disgusting. But the Lord and the Body are real. So is Satan. I pray people survive and press in to the real deal.
Everyone is a discerning expert now. Where was the gift when it mattered. Its a little embarrassing. Its like a Disney movie where a spell was cast over the village and it wasn't broken until the "bad guy" dies.
I just started watching this.. You make a great point. I tried to warn people often about several ministries but no one wanted to listen.
@@lizzygerard4373
The ones that were discerning have been long gone. Run off and destroyed by the thousands and these women didn’t care until it happened to them. Sometimes that is the only way you find out. What they do with it now that they “know” will be the test to see if they really care or not. I truly hope they can use their positions, platforms and leadership abilities to help all the ones destroyed who discerned it years before them.
I came here to say this
Thank you all for being vulnerable and honest! Healing is a process and you have chosen to start it !
I really appreciate the bravery of these women. Thank you, sisters!
I agree!! The Prayer room is absolutely an Idol!! Thank you for speaking that truth!
Ladies - this is so good. You communicate so well and Jenn -you clearly spoke what worship leaders and worship teams felt continually .
Saying someone's way of praying is a dime a dozen! That's disgusting.
“Disgusting” is the perfect description!
This is heart wrenching. I don’t know what to say. You have learned a lot. We are all learning a lot.
Thank you all for talking about this for others who have experienced church hurt or cult like churches. This is far too common and walking through the hurt is painful but possible! So many truths shared here. Thx for the wisdom and perspectives
This is the most important conversation! Thank you for having it.
Just finished last week’s episode two minutes ago. These are hard and heavy things to hear, but there is a lot to learn about how we operate in the church.
Thank you for sharing difficult truth that so many have experienced.
This is depressing and horrifying....thank you ladies!!!!
This literally feels like a Psy Op…and/or a full length movie or show. My gosh, the levels of twisting to maintain the narrative are so extremely diabolical! Just wow. 😳🤦♀️
Let this be a lesson learned for Remnant Radio and everyone else. Don't just believe anyone who says they have seen Jesus or and Angel, and they told them whatever. You need to spend time and get to know the person to see if there is true fruit in their lives and if there are any red flags. If you feel there are red flags, there probably are.
I greatly respect you guys acknowledging and admitting your wrong about the prophetic history. I hate how people have slandered you for taking the videos down, it shows their true motives are not in the right place
I honor all five of you for your tender hearts and devotion to God. This was a superb video
It was certainly good to hear the explanation, but it also felt shady when the (I believe it was 15 videos) were pulled and a prior video on Bickle's allegations had the comments locked in relative (public) silence. I can understand that they may have prioritized explaining to supporters, but this was something that may have been better served getting ahead of the cascade, since the videos had people singing Mike's praises and calling those who spoke against him as "reprehensible".
I guess I don’t understand why they still promote Sam Storms after all that.
Mike bottling lightning. Endless inspiring everyone that his grand vision was the greatest. People want to feel important.
I think anytime you're asked to leave a church, you are walking with the Lord! It's a badge of honor!
That is an insanely arrogant and self righteous generalization. Does that apply, then, to Mike Bickle? Carl Lentz? Mark Driscoll?
@@deployeddadtv699 It applies to me.
My heart was absolutely crushed when I heard that a wonderful young lady who has been somewhat sheltered is going to be going to YWAM. 😭💔
@@MsKati30
IMO all these “Ministries” like YWAM are stepping stones for people to further their educations, careers and desire to be in ministry themselves. Who wouldn’t? The perks are great! Plus it’s a way to travel and live in other counties paid for by the working stiffs they are trained to fleece to pay for it all. Master Commissions, YWAM etc are all the same thing. Taught to trade their labor for a chance to travel and experience the life of a leader. All while being supported by the working class back at Podunk.
The abuses are many in these ministries also. Depending on your rank and position you can be used up and destroyed right along with the Churches they are connected to. Or you could be promoted and rise to the top. Same system. Same results. It just depends on who you talk to.
1:13:15 - I experienced this. It’s so dirty on the part of the pastor. And Michael Miller, my “pastor” hired someone to “mow his lawn,” too when he let me go via a phone call to my spouse. The immaturity and filth that goes into treating people like this is sick. I’m sorry your families have experienced this, and I THANK you for speaking out!
You may want to clarify which "Michael Miller" you are referring to! 😉
@@michaelmiller5024 Oh, you’re right! You have a popular name, and Upper Room Dallas is pastored by a “Michael Miller.”
Michael Miller (Remnant Radio), I was letting you know that my pastor (who was neither you nor that Michael Miller) did the very same thing you mentioned in the interview. He had someone else “mow the lawn” for him.
I wish I wasn't nodding my head emphatically so much while watching this. I went to a small church that idolized Bethel, Morning Star and IHOP and it sounds like my former pastors took lessons from IHOP on how they both practiced their abuse. I too have cried so much in repentance that I was a part of believing that those who left were demons. I've also repented over and over for never asking questions of the people who left and why they left. We were given a story at the alter, and if you didn't believe it, then there was something wrong with you. And how could the good girl in me be ostrisized by my community and friends who I held so dear?
I know I'm not alone. This verifies that once again. Listening to these stories of the exact same thing I lived through in a small church in western NY, helps me somehow know that I wasn't just an idiot that fell for it. I was an empathetic person who always wanted to do the right thing - until that "right thing" was abusing myself at the hand of the cult leader. I feel for you all - because your stories are our stories - and it happened all over the place. I truly believe that the next great awakening, is waking up to the abuse so that we can get back to worshipping the ONE AND ONLY true God, and not a system who claims to do that for us.
I'm an IHOPU alumni. Thank you so much for having these interviews. I'm afraid it's going to take me years to untangle the valid vs abusive things I learned, and these vids have been very healing. Will there be a part 3?
I am grateful that you guys are doing these videos because they are sorely needed. I do want to speak a word of caution, though. Be careful that your necessary reaction to this tragedy doesn't stray into the realm of over-reaction. I wouldn't want viewers to come away from your podcast with the idea that the call to be "whole-hearted" or "all-in" is extra-biblical. The first and greatest commandment is still first and greatest. Rather than viewing wholeheartedness as a weakness or vulnerability, we need to strengthen the church in such a way that abusive leaders are unable to exploit wholeheartedness in individual believers. Also, there are still gossiping and decisive people in the church, and not all leaders who address and discipline such issues are narcissistic. I get what you guys are saying, and as someone who spent a portion of her young adult years at IHOP, I appreciate you taking time to address these issues. But I think you need to be cautious about how the tone comes across to listeners. I am concerned that the body of Christ in general is in danger of pushing the pendulum too far in the other direction as a result of this crisis. Wholeheartedness is beautiful and necessary in believers. We cannot erase that.
Mowing the lawn is straight from Macchiavelli. Concerning that those tactics are used in churches...terrible
Thank you for this. This answers a lot of questions. Done with true humility and grace.
Thank you for this interview, concerns I’ve expressed about the ihop style prayer movement and was misjudged for were said here. So it’s a comfort and I feel hopeful.
I believe I had heard 2 people were so offended in what happened to them at IHOP, they left the church.
1 became gay the other trans & never wanted to enter any church again in their lifetime. They were so hurt by what had happened to them.
@@sarahs.9340 I was there (12-year former staff) during an exodus of sorts of those lifestyles from IHOPKC. I know a staff member who left their spouse to marry another gender, and also a worship leader who embraced that lifestyle and also left IHOP, for instance.
And there was a strong “push” by a number of such IHOPpers for IHOP to EMBRACE their lifestyles and make room for it even at IHOPU etc.
But IHOPKC, instead, confronted those issues directly in the normative Christian way and those doing that “push” were left to choose to stay in a place with opposing practice and doctrine (to LG..), or to leave.
And my impression was that this “push” was a “progressive Christianity” movement gaining strong traction at IHOP amongst some staff, students, and interns, etc, and that IHOP just endeavored to confront it, necessarily. Therefore, MANY of the pro LG.. people left (some very vocal) and were quite offended.
Even today, podcasts like that one with “Bent” in the title (I forget) has some of those who left during that time. One of the men who left, who embraces LG now, seemed to indicate his belief that IHOP is wrong in that area and is stifling people and causing hurt.
So I wonder if your examples are in that sense, that they were hurt by IHOP effectively “kicking them out” or their not tolerating certain things in that realm about them at that time.
Similarly, there was a relatively large contingent of people who left IHOP over IHOP not making room for “Jewish roots” teaching. IHOP openly confronted it and people left, some quite upset and hurt, of course.
I'm curious: What is Mike doing now? Does he have a real job? Did he retire? Is he on a beach in Hawaii? I ask because about a zillion of us want to know.
I hope he is somewhere far far away..
I hope and pray he is in a posture of godly humility, deep healing and purification. 🙏🏼
1 hour into this and it’s evident that over spiritualizing things leads to many people leaving but also many fresh bodies coming into the ministry… turnover is massive at IHOPKC
Sheri was my mentor for a season at ihop. Thank you for sharing your testimonies and vulnerability. Thank you, ladies!
These media stories hit hard. Thank you ladies for being so vulnerable.
The radicalism, all or nothing, is exactly what Mike exploited. And yes, that's heady wine for young people.
Simple solution for incredibly complex problems.
Ugh this is all so hard.
Thank you everyone for talking about this and thank you for the pastoring!
1:21:45 I worked at a church that was so leadership focused that people would call it “[first part of the name] Leadership Church” behind the scenes. The pastor would love to use the idea that there was “grace” for a season of time there. And if the grace lifted then it was time for the staff member to find out where the grace moved, and go there. It was his twisted “spiritual” way of manipulating people either to leave when he didn’t want them or to make it look like God was leading them away instead of him firing them. Our churches are so sick - incredibly unwell.
so sorry for all the pain you have been through, dear sisters, God bless you and keep you
This was so helpful to listen to. I wish I could hang out with these people and just hear them talk more align these lines. So many times I related to what they were saying
Thank you for speaking out
good point that Michael made from the book - it is a narcissistic community, not just the leaader, have not thought about it that way. God bless you and keep you
The enemy loves to cause a spirit of rejection to cause a mental stronghold in peaple make sure this never happens to any of you seeing this comment I pray that God will give you all the gift of discernment ❤
I have been through similar things, but I was young and isolated in a foreign country and had just recommited my life to God after losing my bff to drugs, so I just ended up losing my faith and 20 years later, I have just now come back to faith, and I see this, these ppl were close to ihop and I was always sad bc I didn't exist anymore to them, they had the prayer room and prophetic conferences to attend. Living in Israel can be extremely disillusioning. Someday I will share my story too maybe. I just pray these ppl realize the pain they have cost. What a wake up call to the church, the Fathers heart is for His children, Jesus life is our example and he did not hide in a prayer room, but was obedient to His Father. I would love to hide, trust me, I am an introvert, but loving others and the way we treat one another is what it is all about. As a mother, if you want to win my heart, or please me, then help, or bless my children, bc how you treat them means everything. Period.
Churches aren't businesses. They are a living Body. Business models are Bravo Sierra and is evidence of getting off track
Nothing wrong with typing ‘bullshit’ my friend ❤
Started going to a Greek Orthodox Church. It has been eye opening in the best possible way. Praying for y’all
I love my Greek Orthodox brothers and sisters ❤
I live on the west coast and I remember going to missions camp and the Lord calling intercessors in the mid 90’s . I think God was calling the church to prayer! I had a hunger. I also remember this minister I can’t remember what his name was but encouraging people to pray for an hour. What I realized I kept watching the clock, like it was making me feel good about myself and my relationship with the Lord. But what I found was I just needed to concentrate on my relationship with the Lord not how much time I was spending in prayer. Going back I do think the Lord was calling us into prayer.
Having watched this though now. It’s interesting that I see many of these behaviours in the large global financial institution that I work in. No surprise you get this when a church copies CEO models.
What an important conversation. What a call to corporate repentance. Maybe a national call to fill stadiums and repent is in order. Corruption so deep. “We never go public!” A code that lives in the highest places.
Yep. And we have the OBLIGATION to be proactive and "GO BACK AND CLEAN IT UP!"
@@adamslater1634
The OBLIGATION should be to go out and find the 16 Thousand who got ground up in that machine and Make RESTITUTION to them…SMH
@@maryestes9584 only The Word can do that. There is no restitution for this only restoration through the ministry of reconciliation... Again that's the Word of God.
@@adamslater1634
Then we can all live without the community of believers and these institutions of men and be on our way..ta ta
I am finally getting back on to finish this. This is spot on concerning allegations of abusive behavior. We had an incident, where people under the influence of this sort of theology (ihop) rallied around the abuser- we had clear and compelling evidence against a man who was demonstrating abusive and dangerous behavior towards our son. When our son who works in construction made the decision to not go on the short term YWAM HOH trip down to Mexico because he did not feel safe with this individual, the woman coordinating everything turned it back around on us. She told us that they were only praying for healing and reconciliation and that our divisive attitude was not beneficial to the HOH team or the church. Those in leadership who we have had a relationship with for quite some time had known of our concerns, seemed concerned themselves and supposedly spoken with this woman… to be honest, this hurt us as much as the concerning incidents! We did not return to church there again.
This all happened around March, and the mission trip took place in April with the person we felt was dangerous included. It was a tough pill to swallow to see him smiling and all of the picture and being handed a microphone to give his trip testimony in front of the church when he returned.
I feel like these types of organizations, as discussed in the video, are very very easy targets for predatory people because they will never be held accountable. The emphasis will always be on the response of those who have been hurt/victimized or abused.
Thanking and praying for you ladies and your families!!!
Peace and blessing be yours...
It’s interesting how intelligent people can disengage from critical thought almost easily. I have had to ask this of myself in recent years. Thank you all for a very helpful conversation.
I went to the first 8 or 10 "One Thing" conferences, and it was always something I looked forward to every year. The worship and Alan Hood's classes were usually my favorites. (Oh, and the bookstore was AWESOME.) Never would have thought something like this was going on, but in hindsight I guess there were a few odd comments spoken from the stage that I just thought were part of the (MB's) personality.
Lots of emotional triggers for me in this episode. And then she said they were accused of trying to take over ihop and the dam that was holding back the tears broke.
This was so good. Thank you for this conversation. Any idea when this will hit the podcast feed?
In the morning
Joshua, I take issue with the percentage you chose when you said that a pastor’s work with regard to “teaching the Word as most important function” ends up being 10% of what he does because of hospital visits and other one on one care. I would say it’s far more than 10% and MUST be far more than 10%. Obviously, only a portion is given out from the pulpit. Another big percentage must go to discipleship. BUT first and foremost, a big big chunk must go to studying the Scriptures (far more than study to prep for Sunday preaching), reading books, praying over it and for the congregation, and simply giving time to think about it - letting it roll over and over in one’s mind and heart. (Pattern seen in Acts 6:4).
My husband has been church planting, ministering the Word, pastoring etc for over 50 years. He ALWAYS gives time to personal prayer, personal study (outside of preaching prep), etc alongside one on one ministry. He never preaches or teaches a passage/message without completely studying it again - looking up the original language meanings, good commentaries, then praying/meditating over it. A pastor needs to guard time for these things even if the people are outside the study door demanding time (and yes, your flesh will be pulled hard by such demands. Such demands will also steal from family time which also must be heavily guarded). There is a time & place for it all but blocking out time to “give yourself” to prayer and study of the Word will equip, empower and enlarge what you have to give in one on one ministry. Read that sentence again. Will empower and enlarge! Words of wisdom etc don’t come out of the air. In fact, all the gifts are evaluated and judged by agreement with the Word. We find abuses of the gifts and errors in doctrine most often are a result of lack of continual foundation in the Word of God. The pastor and elders are the guardians at the door. If they don’t really know the Word and are continually studying & memorizing it, etc, they will let things be said, taught and done which will be the little foxes that ruin the vineyard.
If abusive leaders only knew that we, the rejected ones, are here to help them become more like Christ. I could, & will listen to this over & over & glean something new every time.
These are standard protocol dynamics of many Charismatic church structures, thank you for detailing them so clearly here in the more severe setting of IHOP. For context, I was connected to most of this in my upbringing, also did multiple ministries, seminary etc… finally needed to leave it all, become a therapist and find healing separate from the church. The layers of use and abuse of humans as well as moral injury built into church structures, as well as unsafe theology is endemic. Some theology contributes to stunting human development as well as stunting empathy. Once you see the interplay damage of structure, power and theology it’s impossible to unsee it.
50 years charismatic here. Moved a lot and have been part of various churches. Can someone tell us what a healthy church is supposed to look like? I don't think I have ever been in one that was healthy. Does one actually exist? Also, was all this manipulation on Mike's part actually intentional and planned or just ignorance with a type A driven personality?
Healthy churches look like healthy marriages. That's the best way I can say it.
There's children born, raised, sent out and they go do the same. Replication, maturation, etc.
The opposite also applies.
I am convinced MB is a narcissist (you should read up on it if you aren't familiar with narcissism) and everything he did was intentional and strategic. Ignorance and a Type A personality doesn't make someone set up a system that allows you to prey on girls and young women.
50 years charismatic?? LOL WHY? 🙃
Does healthy individuals exist in these "churches" in leadership ?? Nope! They are not welcome to help to fix the things which are broken
@@lavieenrose5954 Because of the difference between getting saved and joining a social club and being born again and growing in a personal relationship with Jesus. Just read the Bible without all the study guides and devotionals. One will be amazed at how magnificent God really is. It is a journey and sometimes there are some rather large pot holes but the Bible teaches how to navigate the pot holes if one wants to take the time to seek God on the issues that come up. Its a journey, not an event. Blessing to you in Jesus' name.
Good news is former Sr. Pastor, Michael Broduer, from San Francisco Vineyard Fellowship has been denied leadership at Bethel. Broduer ran when VCF leadership tried to address abuse surrounded by Associate Pastor "Yes Men"
Thank you 🌹⭐🌹
All of this is so upsetting. This is the definition of spiritual abuse. There are things that make a lot of sense to me now that have been baffling. I now see the connection between YWAM and ihop and understand the source of my frustration with certain people who speak this type of spiritual nonsense
I'm glad RR is able to admit they were wrong, but there were people calling out MB and IHOP that were just blown off as heresy hunters. Idk if there's a better way to say this, but it's one thing to admit we are wrong and another (perhaps more difficult) thing to say someone else was right.
An apology is nice but no where near restoring the hundreds of innocent people who were ground up in their Celebrity Machine.
Exactly, I remember they were depending ihop right up until this all came out.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
Søren Kierkegaard
At least the folks that went to ihop see things now they didn't before ❤❤
54:00 Moral injury is no joke. Great job bringing it up Elizabeth 👍
I love the honesty of this 😢
I would suggest you guys read or re-read Ken Blue's book on Healing from Spiritual Abuse. I have taken my core leaders through this book and it has helped us heal, along with proactive steps to prevent it from ever happening in the church I lead.
As a person who had been wronged by abusive leaders I want to ask the lady who apologized for taking part on the abuse, to please go and contact directly and personally to each one of the people who was hurt. This will show a total repentance and bring massive healing on both.
Absolutely!! Each one individually! 💯
Because of the lack of accountability it sounds like leaders did things so others couldn't find out what they were doing or they didn't want people to pattern their actions, very paranoic
Being a Christian makes us vulnerable to psychological/spiritual predators who have a manual on how to manipulate us. It is becoming more and more urgent, that we as sheep - even in the context of the communities that we serve in, become dependant on THE Good Shepherd to protect us from the many wolves out there in sheep’s clothing. Jesus, open our eyes to see and give us the courage and wisdom to act. Thank you everyone for giving us important information to be able to recognize the imposters.
This is heartbreaking. Just because people know the Bible, take communion, worship, pray and fast does not make you legit. If they still have a divided heart, divided soul, divided mind etc you will still have issues. It is like IHOP was putting bandaids on the issues to hide what was going on....white washed walls. I am so very grateful to Remnant for doing these interviews and revealing the truth from the darkness of IHOP. Blessings to you guys.
Good stuff!
Building a body without the Head.
Bless your heart Elizabeth!
I went through the same situation... it took me years... to heal my soul from hurt. Nurcisis Leader quick me put of the church...like I was a false prophet. It doesn't matter how much I questioned, "Why?" . The Lord helped me and brought me to His Light and recovering. I forgive them and pray for their lives.
God bless you my friend ❤
this "narcissistic community" surely does not apply to all church members in an abusive environment
So how does Ihop still keep going even after Julie Roys followed up on it?
because julie Roys cant be there 24/7 in person brain washing the people like these women and bickle.
An inner core of very loyal, believing, followers of the "IHOP" ways and teachings.
when the roots is corrupt the tree will never bear the right fruits.
May the Lord bring real actual justice and real actual healing
@TheRemnantRadio do you mind unpacking the concept of “grooming”? Especially in relation to Biblical discipleship, modern day discipleship, and even how it’s “buzzing” in secular media as well. Thank you, I’m really trying to wrap my mind around it as a whole, how it plays out, and examples of that that actually looks like. Ty!
I wish yall could have specifically named the book about parenting. Was it “To Train up a Child” by the Pearls? It was pretty bad and I was impacted by it.
Do you guys believe in the 5 fold ministry? Or other tongues, prophecy? Just curious
what that have to do with ABUSE ????
15:41 This is frankly a bizarre take on why people go to hell. In some sense this may be a result of people being sent to hell but there's no indication in Scripture that hell is a holding place to keep us protected from sinful people or something like that. I don't know what view of hell is being expressed here but if you hold to eternal torment it's very clearly the case that none of the suffering in question helps protect anyone.
I noticed that too, but I don't think his intention was to start a new doctrine. He was just talking, and thinking out loud.....
Very strange.
Thank you Remnant radio. Men of God and leaders of your household... to use a worldly phrase...- inspect what your expect- in the Heart of Jesus and His Word.
I think those who are annoyed that you took down the prophetic history videos are mad because they can not use them for their heresy hunting channels. Sorry, I meant discernment ministries.
Considering that the prophetic history was almost certainly made up by 3 sexual predators claiming to be prophets, I don't think this is the right issue to knock heresy hunters on.
I say this as a continuationist who believes a lot of the heresy hunters go overboard and who think RR did the right thing by taking down the videos and letting us know why.
@cestmoi5687 My point is that the heresy hunters want to go after RR for platforming Bickle and the prophetic history and are probably upset they can't use the clips from those videos to do so. I think we're in agreement that RR did the right thing and need not be target by those guys.
Vindication is a gift the Lord sometimes allows but it can also go too far in one's own heart.
4:10 When the guests finally get to speak.
Good Stuff!
it is like Jen said, the prayer room is an idol. This is shown also in the fact that people who are still there, think they need a mediator to talk to former good friends! I understand how, especially young people can get caught up in the idea that they are doing something great, but the Lord never told us that we are to usher His return. All such things happen when the authority of the Word of God is not establlished, but supposed revelations of men are set up as guiding principles of faith. God bless you all and ereryone here
RR calling balls and strikes…. Even on themselves. Just wondering if there are any men joining. Men process things differently.
Is the church in Denver you are referring to HOUSE? My wife and I have visited there once since we moved last week and are weary of getting connected based on all that has happened and their connections to Bickle/ihop. Definitely don’t want to gossip but we want to make the wise decision before going through anything like this.
All one need to do is ask how many elders have resigned and/or left in the last year.
This sounds like an episode of Sister Wives…and I don’t say that because I don’t understand.. I was in the same kind of church 50 years ago. I’m from Podunk and these women’s stories are word for word the same ones myself and many others can recite about our own experiences in churches with Abusive Leadership.
It sickens me that this is STILL going on..let me know if you come up with any answers… until then I’m not going back. It’s not that I haven’t tried… but this is confirmation that this has never been addressed and leaves little hope for change.
44:00 oh my Lord do i have stories
good content