Fantastic job , I see the flow coat for artwork or stripes but as you showed the halo effect could happen to a cut threw area of the flow coat, I tend to stack
I think the thought process for most is flow coating allows you to flatten the previous layers of paints. Then by reducing the next two coats of clear you will end up with less trash and peel which means less cutting and buffing for the final finish.
Or buy a devilbiss pro lite with 1.3 tip and t110 aircap and get a slicker then a fresh sucked pickle finish without any of these tactics by actually clearing it 1 time. True i promise
@AdamOutlaw87 i prefer a Devilbiss DV1-C or Ani 200 black both with 1.2mm as I use High Solids Clear and 1.2mm breaks up the solids better for a finer atomization
You basically have created a blend line on a modern thermoset clear coat. That’s why it’s not recommended to try to “burn in” clear on a repair. The edge will show up sooner or later. Guys that are old enough to have used lacquer were able to melt in a blend within a panel because it would re-wet the under layer of lacquer paint and you could buff the hazy edge away. Catalyzed clears and single stage urethane won’t do that. The new layers lay on top of what has set up with hardened/catalyzed paint. I enjoyed your demonstration. I can tell you take a lot of pride in your craft👍
I have tried stacking clear in the past. Maybe the HS euro clear didn’t like the millage but I noticed it framed the edges alot . I walk the side when I spray too. Anything that I want flat I flow coat, much cleaner finish.
Honestly, that was an extreme test, valid, but extreme. I think it's safe to say under a normal and careful cut and buff like one would in a 2-3 coat clear job, flow coating is relatively safe. It took a lot to break through that side plus the addition of thinners. The next question would be the suggested clear to use. Same or supposedly better? Reduced or unreduced?
Well said i'd agree with careful cut and buff flow coating would be fine. It made more sense to me to just put 4-5 coats on while you're already in the booth IF you're going to be doing some serious cut / buffing anyways. If I had some heavy peal or trash to get rid of and didn't really need a serious cut / polish a flow coat would probably be easier for sure. As far a reducer / no reduced, it would have to depend on what clear you're shooting. This particular clear is Sikkens HS plus which doesn't really need a reducer. The slow version lays out great.
I used to work in a bodyshop that did a lot of drag race cars and collision work ......most jobs got 3 to 4 good coats of clear and the cut with 100 1500 200 2500 and sometimes 3000 and buffed......and the shop was known in the area for slick paint jobs ....that being said ....when I painted my personal truck a 96 s 10 with a core swap 2000 front end.....I did 3 coats clear....came in 12 hrs. Later 800 water sanded then put on 3 more coats .....cut and buffed it and it looked amazing ....and was easier to cut and buff ...idk ....but definitely be careful not to sand threw the clear if you flow coat
That was a great way to demonstrate this debate. There is pros and cons either way, but generally i think it boils down to painter/buffer skillset and condtions in the paint environment. The stacking of excess layers of clear will tend to look very heavy around bodylines etc and need more aggressive cut and buff methods to get a nice look. Faster in paint slower in buff, but the flow coat way allows you to paint production style, sand away texture or defects easy and reclear for a sweet topcoat that is easy to buff. if done right this is a better way imo but time is money so depends on the situation. As a guy who has done tons of paint/buffing in my trade you have plenty of time to notice details that most others wouldnt....
I wonder if it would be better to use a intercoat for the first couple coats of the flow coat. Would help speed up process for sure. Just sayin. Great video
If you risk stacking clear without Solvent pop last coats will have to be so dry your just laying over them anyway unless you reducer the clear too melt together and then risk dye back.
@@RedHammerBodyShop I ordered some from amazon earlier. It had some good reviews too. Always looking to branch out and try new things!! Thanks for the recommendation.
After you have been painting cars long enough you will understand when and where to flow, when and where to stack. Neither one is right all the time. I personally flow coat the next day, never untape, and have never had an issue, but 75% of what I flow coat is a disassembled part, so washed off clear isn't in the cracks.
I flow coat every show car I do. It's what I've always done and will continue to do. To me honestly so many things can go wrong when stacking, you're asking for trouble when you stack clear. Also Stacking defeats the whole purpose of why we flow coat. We flow coat to give us an extremely flat surface to work off of. It sounds like more work, and is more work, but compare Flow Coating to Trying to flatten 5 coats of Stacked clear and see which takes longer. Also Flow Coats give that unmatched Depth and Shine that you will never get Stacking clear. You know the look like you could just fall into the paint.
@@lowcountrylowdown9000 I still just to be safe I go ahead and flow coat because I have the time to do it I feel safer doing 2 coats let it set 800 then 2 more coats
This seems pretty definitive to favor stacking. But my concern for anyone taking these results to DIY, flow coating let's you catch any trash/nibs that might get buried too deep to work out on a stacked job. So stacking is a great way to gain durability IF you have a very good paint area. But flow coating is a way to get good looking results under less than perfect working conditions/ability/knowledge. But this is really only an issue for an out-the-door job. Technically a stacked job can be fixed by a sand and re-clear, and that's what a flow coat is. So why not stack n buff your heart out, and only bother doing a flow coat if serious issues need it? I would never flow coat as a process policy, I would only use it to address defects. Very good experiment! So much great raw data to make good choices for the real world! Thanks!
Similar concept to a smart repair. I did it on my daily and every 6 months or so I have to buff a halo out. It was meant to be a temporary repair so I am fine with 10 minutes of work ever 6 months. But for a $10,000+ full paint job I wouldn’t be a happy camper. I am still contemplating a flow coat on my corvette I am about to repaint. I think it has benefits for those of us without a paint booth. Let’s me 800 grit all of the trash out and then I only need to worry about trash in my last 2 coats of clear while buffing.
It's really not a problem. As you saw, it took thinner to reveal the different layers, but disbonding would mainly come from breaking through the clear. A flow coat is a full panel coat. Even with 2 coats you'd be used pressed to burn through unless being careless
You started with 1000 grit and itvwas ready to buff. You went to 800 to break through and went to 320 to actually get through. I think you are safe to flowcoat.
Your not wrong at all this video shows you how to waste clear and throw away💵💵 a simple paint gun can change the game and your tactics instantly and since people want to throw money away in clearcoat/sandpaper etc then why not buy a real paint gun and do the job 1 time
flow coat will leave a ring over time if you break threw the "flow coat " layers... there is a mechanical bond vrs a chemical bond... we stack clear 6 to 8 coats... but start cutting with 600... i dont car what anyone says... you can not cut urethane wave out with 1000 grit paper... you will have a high gloss ripple paint job if you cut with 1000.... arcylic blocks ...start at 600... finish grit is another argument.... cut compound leaves more coarse scratch then 3000 or 5000 .. so no need to sand that fine....
Thank you for this, flow coating has seemed to be a fad that took off, had a professional painter tell me exactly what you proved and it is twice as much work, so unless you are burying art work, graphics that are done on top of a clear coat … why do it ? Burn thru is not worth it.
flow coat has a much better flatter finish off the gun. If you are getting paid by the hour on the job might as well stack the clear and cut and buff it.
It's been sitting behind my shot, I used the fender for another video; however, I still think the test areas are fine, so I will go check and see. I doubt the sun did anything in that short of a time period.
5 coats of any clear especially some of these high solid clear. The painter really better be paying attention. Very easily turn into a big prob. And I mean wet coats not well dust first one then little more 2and and so on lol
Id rather cut and buff that way you have more control of the look, you are looking for. It takes patience for sure but nothing beats knocking all the clear flat and polishing out
Absolutely no one that flowcoats is going to sand a hillside slope from bare metal to the hill top. Absolutely no one that flow coats is going to apply lacquer thinker on the panel after buffing. The only thing this video proves is paint and clear dry in layers. Not to bring up a fault in your method without a solution; if you’re that worried about the quality of your clear job, instead of wasting 5 coats of material to get a nice finish, invest in a gun that lays it down in 3 coats, cut and buff. You only proved that cutting and buffing only takes about 1 mill for a mirror glass polish. That is the only good point I took from this video
I flow coat every show car. I also believe in cutting and buffing every show car I do no matter how good it looks. Flow coating will give you a cleaner finish than stacking. You are also not going to burn through wet sanding by hand with 600grit, a sanding block, and water prior to flow coating. Mill thickness is not why you flow coat. Its to get a cleaner finish
Flow coating in my opinion is for show cars only less Orange peel and will weather better in the long term and will always look better and you couldn’t rub through unless you had a big night the night before 😂
Flow Coating is what the pros do for show cars and has been done for decades. You tried way too hard to look for this failure which is really unrealistic in properly done paint jobs. Im going to keep flow coating. It also gives a deeper gloss and shine to a paint job.
I saw the flow coat. In the image. Just before u buffed and polished. Before u add solvent. Watch vid. Easier to see on film. It’s 1” back from stack coat line
You're supposed to wait a couple of months for the clear to cure properly before spraying a flow coat. Otherwise because the original clear isn't cured properly it absorbs the flow coat and can look "cloudy".
wow, I've never had that issue before and I've scuffed and recleared things the next day (not for flow coating but collision work screw up or too many runs on a collision job). I might have to research this one.
The ring is so subtle, I’m not sure you would see it unless the finish was mirror like the right side. Your lack of prep before buffing the left side may well have hidden the layer interfaces given how subtle they are.
@@LTVoyager It is very subtle yes. I guess my concern is longevity if, and only if, one was to break through the top flow coat layer of clear during buffing operations. The approprate mil build isn't there if someone cuts it down too much. Most of the time guys who do this are knowledgable enough not to break or cut too much off. This situation would be similar to a "smart repair" burn in which isn't an advised practice.
@@LTVoyager Agree, I wanted to do 5 to exagerate the situation and also I wanted to see how my clear performed with stacking. Sikkens HS+ handled it like a boss with no solvent pops (even with the runs). On a basic paintjob we would normally do 3 which leaves room for cutting / buffing. Maybe 4 depending on situation or customer.
Awesome video! I paint in my garage and flow coat has saved my paint jobs. It's really hard to buff out stacked clear with dust in it
I use an inner coat clear 1st ! Can sand next day & carry on with a true flow coat !!Ppg dbc clear great for a real flow coat
im going to flow coat today ,i do every job this way
The whole idea of a flow coat is you end up with a flat finish(no orange peel) so you only need to denib the last paint, not flat and polish it .
Fantastic job , I see the flow coat for artwork or stripes but as you showed the halo effect could happen to a cut threw area of the flow coat, I tend to stack
I think the thought process for most is flow coating allows you to flatten the previous layers of paints. Then by reducing the next two coats of clear you will end up with less trash and peel which means less cutting and buffing for the final finish.
Or buy a devilbiss pro lite with 1.3 tip and t110 aircap and get a slicker then a fresh sucked pickle finish without any of these tactics by actually clearing it 1 time. True i promise
@@AdamOutlaw87 That’s the exact set up I use but the clears only as flat as what it on top of. The T110 is great but it’s a cloud maker.
@AdamOutlaw87 i prefer a Devilbiss DV1-C or Ani 200 black both with 1.2mm as I use High Solids Clear and 1.2mm breaks up the solids better for a finer atomization
You basically have created a blend line on a modern thermoset clear coat. That’s why it’s not recommended to try to “burn in” clear on a repair. The edge will show up sooner or later. Guys that are old enough to have used lacquer were able to melt in a blend within a panel because it would re-wet the under layer of lacquer paint and you could buff the hazy edge away. Catalyzed clears and single stage urethane won’t do that. The new layers lay on top of what has set up with hardened/catalyzed paint. I enjoyed your demonstration. I can tell you take a lot of pride in your craft👍
Exactly...Thank you!
I have tried stacking clear in the past. Maybe the HS euro clear didn’t like the millage but I noticed it framed the edges alot . I walk the side when I spray too.
Anything that I want flat I flow coat, much cleaner finish.
yes sir all clears will be different.
Honestly, that was an extreme test, valid, but extreme. I think it's safe to say under a normal and careful cut and buff like one would in a 2-3 coat clear job, flow coating is relatively safe. It took a lot to break through that side plus the addition of thinners.
The next question would be the suggested clear to use. Same or supposedly better? Reduced or unreduced?
Well said i'd agree with careful cut and buff flow coating would be fine. It made more sense to me to just put 4-5 coats on while you're already in the booth IF you're going to be doing some serious cut / buffing anyways. If I had some heavy peal or trash to get rid of and didn't really need a serious cut / polish a flow coat would probably be easier for sure. As far a reducer / no reduced, it would have to depend on what clear you're shooting. This particular clear is Sikkens HS plus which doesn't really need a reducer. The slow version lays out great.
With most clears, you can use a 20-24 hour flash time. No sanding and still melts with the previous layer.
So I’m flow coating my square body truck , I just did the last clear spray on my tailgate and back side of doors . When I sanded the tail gate
Been there many times thinking I can live with stacked clear and wasn't happy until I knocked it down and flow coated.
I used to work in a bodyshop that did a lot of drag race cars and collision work ......most jobs got 3 to 4 good coats of clear and the cut with 100 1500 200 2500 and sometimes 3000 and buffed......and the shop was known in the area for slick paint jobs ....that being said ....when I painted my personal truck a 96 s 10 with a core swap 2000 front end.....I did 3 coats clear....came in 12 hrs. Later 800 water sanded then put on 3 more coats .....cut and buffed it and it looked amazing ....and was easier to cut and buff ...idk ....but definitely be careful not to sand threw the clear if you flow coat
Sweet ,stacked for the win agreed 👍
That was a great way to demonstrate this debate. There is pros and cons either way, but generally i think it boils down to painter/buffer skillset and condtions in the paint environment. The stacking of excess layers of clear will tend to look very heavy around bodylines etc and need more aggressive cut and buff methods to get a nice look. Faster in paint slower in buff, but the flow coat way allows you to paint production style, sand away texture or defects easy and reclear for a sweet topcoat that is easy to buff. if done right this is a better way imo but time is money so depends on the situation. As a guy who has done tons of paint/buffing in my trade you have plenty of time to notice details that most others wouldnt....
Well said sir! Both ways work just depends on the painter's preference and skillset. I've done both and had success with both.
I wonder if it would be better to use a intercoat for the first couple coats of the flow coat. Would help speed up process for sure. Just sayin. Great video
When you have to bare down with 320 to prove a point you already have.
If you risk stacking clear without Solvent pop last coats will have to be so dry your just laying over them anyway unless you reducer the clear too melt together and then risk dye back.
Let me suggest something, Fare'cla G3 Premium Compound. Stage 1+2 then stage 3. I cut with 1500 then buff from there. Even on black, no swirls.
That sounds like some good stuff...I will have to give it a try for sure. Thanks!
@@lowcountrylowdown9000 its the best I've ever used by far. Cuts super fast, and leaves no swirls. Shouldn't be possible but it works.
@@RedHammerBodyShop I ordered some from amazon earlier. It had some good reviews too. Always looking to branch out and try new things!! Thanks for the recommendation.
@@lowcountrylowdown9000 please let me know what you think of it. It's not cheap, but it lasts a good while.
@@RedHammerBodyShop yes sir....nothing is cheap anymore..LOL
After you have been painting cars long enough you will understand when and where to flow, when and where to stack. Neither one is right all the time. I personally flow coat the next day, never untape, and have never had an issue, but 75% of what I flow coat is a disassembled part, so washed off clear isn't in the cracks.
I flow coat every show car I do. It's what I've always done and will continue to do. To me honestly so many things can go wrong when stacking, you're asking for trouble when you stack clear. Also Stacking defeats the whole purpose of why we flow coat. We flow coat to give us an extremely flat surface to work off of. It sounds like more work, and is more work, but compare Flow Coating to Trying to flatten 5 coats of Stacked clear and see which takes longer. Also Flow Coats give that unmatched Depth and Shine that you will never get Stacking clear. You know the look like you could just fall into the paint.
When I stack clear I use ad 10 minutes more time to the flash time so I will do like 15,25,35,45
Yes sir that makes sense...gotta let those solvents get out.
@@lowcountrylowdown9000 I still just to be safe I go ahead and flow coat because I have the time to do it I feel safer doing 2 coats let it set 800 then 2 more coats
@@rongamble9884 I've done it both ways myself. All depends on situation for me and what customer is looking for.
@@lowcountrylowdown9000 ya I don't do any collision side work unless it's on older streetrods classics no newer stuff
I am not a painter .this is a very interesting project! I think it is good to know.
Thank you for your support!
This seems pretty definitive to favor stacking. But my concern for anyone taking these results to DIY, flow coating let's you catch any trash/nibs that might get buried too deep to work out on a stacked job.
So stacking is a great way to gain durability IF you have a very good paint area. But flow coating is a way to get good looking results under less than perfect working conditions/ability/knowledge.
But this is really only an issue for an out-the-door job. Technically a stacked job can be fixed by a sand and re-clear, and that's what a flow coat is.
So why not stack n buff your heart out, and only bother doing a flow coat if serious issues need it? I would never flow coat as a process policy, I would only use it to address defects.
Very good experiment! So much great raw data to make good choices for the real world! Thanks!
Similar concept to a smart repair. I did it on my daily and every 6 months or so I have to buff a halo out. It was meant to be a temporary repair so I am fine with 10 minutes of work ever 6 months. But for a $10,000+ full paint job I wouldn’t be a happy camper. I am still contemplating a flow coat on my corvette I am about to repaint. I think it has benefits for those of us without a paint booth. Let’s me 800 grit all of the trash out and then I only need to worry about trash in my last 2 coats of clear while buffing.
It's really not a problem. As you saw, it took thinner to reveal the different layers, but disbonding would mainly come from breaking through the clear. A flow coat is a full panel coat. Even with 2 coats you'd be used pressed to burn through unless being careless
You started with 1000 grit and itvwas ready to buff. You went to 800 to break through and went to 320 to actually get through. I think you are safe to flowcoat.
A lazer flat cut and polish takes time regardlessly, you don't want to be in a rush
Flow coat always seemed unnecessary to me, because you’re going to buff it at the end anyway. 🤷🏽♂️ I’m no pro though so maybe I’m wrong!
Your not wrong at all this video shows you how to waste clear and throw away💵💵 a simple paint gun can change the game and your tactics instantly and since people want to throw money away in clearcoat/sandpaper etc then why not buy a real paint gun and do the job 1 time
There has to be the second coat somewhere it didn't melt into the first
both look pretty good from here
Nice. What clear is this u used
Sikkens HS+.....very good clear
flow coat will leave a ring over time if you break threw the "flow coat " layers... there is a mechanical bond vrs a chemical bond... we stack clear 6 to 8 coats... but start cutting with 600... i dont car what anyone says... you can not cut urethane wave out with 1000 grit paper... you will have a high gloss ripple paint job if you cut with 1000.... arcylic blocks ...start at 600... finish grit is another argument.... cut compound leaves more coarse scratch then 3000 or 5000 .. so no need to sand that fine....
Thank you for this, flow coating has seemed to be a fad that took off, had a professional painter tell me exactly what you proved and it is twice as much work, so unless you are burying art work, graphics that are done on top of a clear coat … why do it ? Burn thru is not worth it.
Exactly! 100% agree with doing it burying graphics or something.
Thank you for this test
Where is your shop located? Are younin yhe Charleston, SC area?
yes moncks corner area
Really enjoyed this video. Thank you.
Thank you!
Bro next time take it outside the booth so we can see it with the sun light. Just a suggestion. Thank you for the Information.
good idea, I will make sure to do that next time.
Great video
I’m pretty sure that there is a much greater time between coats when stacking. If not each layer just melts into the last which is why you have runs.
flow coat has a much better flatter finish off the gun. If you are getting paid by the hour on the job might as well stack the clear and cut and buff it.
Did you ever put it out in the sun and see what happened?
It's been sitting behind my shot, I used the fender for another video; however, I still think the test areas are fine, so I will go check and see. I doubt the sun did anything in that short of a time period.
Flow coating is also a secondary go if you’re a shit painter and get sags and runs ..
5 coats of any clear especially some of these high solid clear. The painter really better be paying attention. Very easily turn into a big prob. And I mean wet coats not well dust first one then little more 2and and so on lol
agreed 100%
low country, so are you in SC
yes sir born and raised.
So your probably better off reducing first flow coat to melt into first spray and then don't reduce last coat of flow
Ill stack it slowly 3xs n cut n buff
Damn still both have a lot of thickness you only need 2 mill for protection
Id rather cut and buff that way you have more control of the look, you are looking for. It takes patience for sure but nothing beats knocking all the clear flat and polishing out
Absolutely no one that flowcoats is going to sand a hillside slope from bare metal to the hill top. Absolutely no one that flow coats is going to apply lacquer thinker on the panel after buffing.
The only thing this video proves is paint and clear dry in layers.
Not to bring up a fault in your method without a solution; if you’re that worried about the quality of your clear job, instead of wasting 5 coats of material to get a nice finish, invest in a gun that lays it down in 3 coats, cut and buff. You only proved that cutting and buffing only takes about 1 mill for a mirror glass polish.
That is the only good point I took from this video
Cool video
Thanks
I flow coat every show car. I also believe in cutting and buffing every show car I do no matter how good it looks. Flow coating will give you a cleaner finish than stacking. You are also not going to burn through wet sanding by hand with 600grit, a sanding block, and water prior to flow coating. Mill thickness is not why you flow coat. Its to get a cleaner finish
Interesting..
For a show car paint it gives an optical illusion of depth the more flattens and flows layers you do. Flow coating has a place but also has a co$t 😂
Flow coating in my opinion is for show cars only less Orange peel and will weather better in the long term and will always look better and you couldn’t rub through unless you had a big night the night before 😂
Absolute waste of time. Do a extra coat and cut it flat with 1000 and buff it after you get back to 3000
I was gonna tell you to use a whool pad n try to burn it lol
There all together
How stupid is that hoping for a result
AFFA angels never die nffn HMS council
Pretty sure I heard you eating candy there...
LOL..thats funny. I wasn't eating anything, but I guess I do need to work on my speaking.😃
You need to either eat or do video not both .
What?🤣
Why? He can do what he wants, who are you?!
Flow Coating is what the pros do for show cars and has been done for decades. You tried way too hard to look for this failure which is really unrealistic in properly done paint jobs. Im going to keep flow coating. It also gives a deeper gloss and shine to a paint job.
I saw the flow coat. In the image. Just before u buffed and polished. Before u add solvent. Watch vid. Easier to see on film. It’s 1” back from stack coat line
You're supposed to wait a couple of months for the clear to cure properly before spraying a flow coat.
Otherwise because the original clear isn't cured properly it absorbs the flow coat and can look "cloudy".
wow, I've never had that issue before and I've scuffed and recleared things the next day (not for flow coating but collision work screw up or too many runs on a collision job). I might have to research this one.
The ring is so subtle, I’m not sure you would see it unless the finish was mirror like the right side. Your lack of prep before buffing the left side may well have hidden the layer interfaces given how subtle they are.
I don’t think you need 5 coats unless you have really bad orange peel. Three coats should be enough for a normal cut and buff.
@@LTVoyager It is very subtle yes. I guess my concern is longevity if, and only if, one was to break through the top flow coat layer of clear during buffing operations. The approprate mil build isn't there if someone cuts it down too much. Most of the time guys who do this are knowledgable enough not to break or cut too much off. This situation would be similar to a "smart repair" burn in which isn't an advised practice.
@@LTVoyager Agree, I wanted to do 5 to exagerate the situation and also I wanted to see how my clear performed with stacking. Sikkens HS+ handled it like a boss with no solvent pops (even with the runs). On a basic paintjob we would normally do 3 which leaves room for cutting / buffing. Maybe 4 depending on situation or customer.