Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Tywin Lannister | The Machiavelli of Westeros | Part 5
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Part 5 of our character profile of Tywin Lannister.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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I just want to say that Charles D's performance as Tywin is absolute gold.
Perfect. If he didn't win whatever awards they have to these things than it was a crime.
Pure talent in those scenes.
the only bad thing about Joffrey dying is it deprived us of more confrontations between Joffrey and Tywin.
so true! how hilarious was that exchange???
jay446944 with all my heart.. I feel the same and agreed
The issue is this would have most likely drawn unwanted suspicion to himself, to avoid direct conflict with the target is vital to a successful plot, if he dies without there being any major obvious conflict between him and Joffrey, he gets to rid himself of suspicion, yet be the most benefited.
Imagine if Tywin actually groomed Tyrion to be his heir its unlikely but that team up like damn.
"be quiet, Cersei", the asoiaf version of "Shut up, Meg" :P
I honestly never suspected Tywin had an angle in the purple wedding but after this video, of course he did. It makes so much sense. When you mentioned Jamie I immediately remembered from the show how Twyin -without hesitation- agreed to Jamie's proposal of going back to Casterly Rock in exchange to save Tyrion.
the whole situation worked out too perfectly for Tywin for him to have not had a role in it
How would the conversation between him and Queen of Thorns go? How do you ask a person to help you kill your grandson, the king?? lol
@@spacekoalalove Queen of Thorns had much to gain from the same any way, and Tywin is a smart man. He doesn't come to people who actually hold some power with wishes of his own, but with how that would benefit them
You're easily convinced. Think for yourself buddy. 😂
This was a marvellous assessment of Tywin's character. He was brilliant and ruthless.
In the end, I think one of the most important lessons that Tywin forgot was 'better to be feared, than loved yet never to be HATED'. In the end, his hate of Tyrion eventually made Tyrion get over his fear of Tywin and replaced it with hate. Hence his execution via crossbow.
"Any man who must say, 'I am the King,' is no true king. I'll make sure you understand that when I've won your war for you." -Tywin Lannister
I never thought of Tywin as a suspect for killing Joffrey but thinking about it he probably has better motivations than anybody, had he had the time to shape Tommen into a king he would have been pretty formidable.
Also, I think that statement Tywin made about 10 men at dinner is more bravado than actual truth. The red wedding also involved slaughtering all of Rob's army that wasn't already loyal to the Freys and Bolton's.
They killed all their men at the Freys too though. So it wasn't just 7 men lol
probably my favorite line from tywin any man who has to say he's king is no true king
What a well written character he was.. This series represents his legacy and I have a feeling he would have been satisfied with it. He is my favorite character to this day and with that being said, my only regret is that I didn't leave a comment worth featuring at the end of the video, because I haven't seen it before today.
Tywinism #5
It was at that moment Joffrey knew he fucked up.
Oh gosh this is such a awesome Theory! It actually makes sense. He has Joffrey gone. But in a way that's no way traced back to him. He gets rid of Tyrion like he always wanted. And it all falls into place. It really shows how truly intelligent Tywin was. And how he was willing to look at the bigger picture in any situation to secure his family is legacy.
thank you so much...Tywin has incredible foresight...its what makes him so good at the game...he's like a master chess player playing against amateurs
Look at how Tywin responded when Tyrion was taken,and he didn't like Tyrion! Yet when his GRANDSON/KING dies he says the boy is gone Cersei coldly and did nothing. Knowing him he would amass an army and strike back in a manner that would shame what he did to house Reyne but NOPE!!!! I think that STRONGLY supports your theory of him being in CAHOOTS with Lady Olenna.
Fools have yet to realize I didn't create gold on the privy. I spun it out of straw. The problem is that the price of gold began to fall so I had start creating food instead. Why do you think the Tyrells were so quick to ally with me? They didn't want me to drive down food prices...
I still can't see what Tywin did with Tyrion's wife (gf?) being anything more than unnecessary cruelty. great vid as usual
I don’t understand the ‘dozen at dinner’ comment, because the Red Wedding didn’t just kill the Starks at the wedding. The entire Stark army was annihilated. So they didn’t spare those thousands of other people. But then I suppose Tywin wouldn’t count the army it’s mostly made up of the small folk?
I also love the fact that Tywin spent his entire life fighting for his family’s reputation, based on fear of him, yet his death will make House Lannister a laughingstock for generations!
I am vivaciously executing the Happy Dance! Delighting in this wonderful series. Tywin = Profound Genius = Despicable and I Love it! Epic series Green Hand! 👍👍
Thank you so much! He's the man, had a great time making it. His lines in that scene we read were just awesome.
Utterly concur!
There was no taster at the Purple Wedding. For Joffrey not to take that precaution is logical given how careless he was, but not Tyrion, whom neither ate nor drank. He hardly eats or drinks only like in very private settings like in his office. Obviously to help avoid poisoning etc.
shame we thought the Young Wolf would actually defeat the Great Lion of the Rock
just not cunning enough for the likes of the lion. :)
Cassio Costa he would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that meddling mother!
Cassio Costa F
in the books he marries jane westerling, so - no he would not...
War is a means to a political end, Tywin understood this but Rob didn't.
Great video! The only problem I see with the “better to kill a dozen at dinner than 10,000 in battle” is that it does not include the vast amount of deaths resulting from the precedent of violating guest right in the utilitarian calculation.
Can't wait for your analysis on the Purple Wedding, so many questions!! That and white walkers, have been what I've looked forward to your thoughts on the most. You guys have quickly become my favorite channel for ASOIAF/GOT theories. You guys go so in depth and it's very much appreciated, definitely makes my day when you upload, and so often! Thank you.
thank you so much
Out of all your theories I've watched so far this series on Tywin is my favourite because it actually seems like much of what you've brought up probably did happen as it makes a lot of sense, and you highlighted things that I've not seen anyone else bring up in videos before like Tywin & Rhaegar conspiring to depose Aerys, well done on this one Order of the Green Hand.
thank you Jeremiah
Best series ever. Tywin was already my favorite character in GOT and this series furthers my belief.
Thank you
Tywin's only mistake was thinking Tyrion was like tytos instead of himself
I wonder how long the war inside GRRM's head lasted, the one to decide whether Tywin should be a POV character or not.
Surely he considered it.
And what a ride it would've been for us, inside THAT mind. Though I do think it was the right decision to only ever see or hear about Tywin's exploits from others' POVs.
Nevermind the shock and surprise we experienced at the Red Wedding being impossible to achieve, it would have removed a lot of the awe of, and respect for, his mental prowess.
I thoroughly enjoyed this series. I always felt like the red wedding was planned in ACOK, though I'm sure it was probably much sooner. In Catelyn 5, Edmure tells Catelyn that Roose Bolton was going to marry a Frey daughter. Then in Catelyn 6, Roose Bolton sent a letter to Cat saying Ramsay had died, and he felt lucky to be rid of him. This was an obvious lie because Ramsay was very much still living. And if I'm not mistaken, in a Tyrion chapter from ACOK, he notes that the Frey hostages had been ransomed, but none of the others were. So that told me that Tywin and Walder Frey had been communicating as well, pretty far back. All these little hints made me cringe during my reread haha.
Great points!
Steve Wilkinson Thanks! I also suspect Tywin and Balon Greyjoy might have been in communication as well, but admittedly I didn't pay the closest attention to those details so I can't say it for certainty.
That one was probably all Euron
I loved Oberyn Martel
I think the Red Wedding shows Tywin at his most foolish, it would stain House Lannister's reputation if it played out perfectly and pretty much assures quiet alliances will be made for mutual defence agaist House Lannister and undermines the existing and future diplomatic efforts due to a lack of trust and general dishonor of the event. It also demonstrates quite clearly that Tywin lacked confidence in his military capability to defeat the North weakening any fear the Lannister army would inspire to prevent future rebellions, fightimg the war to a military end may have weakened that army but it would have kept a great deal of its deterrence factor.
Unless the Lannisters lost the war.
Corey Micallef but it makes him a terrifying foe. And once The North is dealt with, who is left? Just the Targaryen girl rising in the East. How do you think he’d finally get her?
Awesome job as always guys. Such an interesting and fastinating character. OMG LOVE the Tywinisums I find the black and white view that Tywin is bad Tryion is good maddening. Tywin is far more complex and Tryion is NOT all good. Seven Blessings
I personally find Tywin to be one of the greatest characters ever created...there is so much depth to his character that most people don't take the time to see...they simply hate him because he is mean to Tyrion, and a few other people have written to us that they hate him because he's rich...people need to get their heads out of their asses and "look with their eyes"...Seven Blessings
I completely agree. The more you read of him, the more fascinating he gets. I think people want the charaters they like to be "loveable" so why the hell do they like Tyrion so much!!!!!
I have to admit that I'm a big fan of Tyrion as a character, but I also see that he is largely to blame for the way his relationship is with Tywin...don't get me wrong, Tywin's hatred for Tyrion existed before Tyrion started deliberately acting in a manor that would irritate him, but Tyrion's actions compounded the hatred...Tywin already hated him a little for killing Joanna when he was born, and hates him even more because he isn't sure if he's even his, but Tyrion acting like a horny drunken circus dwarf was the last thing that was going to help the situaion
The Order of the Green Hand I actually think he is one of 5he most tragic characters in the story! The Mann who is probably the greatest ruler in ASOIAF, leaves a legacy that is immediately destroyed by his children! I think if his wife had survived tyrions birth, his children would have become normal people, and the lannisters would be the dominant power for decades to come!
It's an interesting theory about Tywin helping to bump off Joffrey. Clearly it does benefit Tywin if Tommen rules instead of Joffrey although I have a few issues with that particular theory (unlike most of your others) as (1) Joffrey is a Lannister and Tywin is seriously opposed to anything done against his family (e.g. Cat abducting Tyrion), (2) Tywin says that Joffrey requires a sharp lesson, which is very far removed from actually killing him, (3) Tywin says he's only 13 and there's time, (4) It would mean that there's no backup if anything were to happen to Tommen, (5) All Joffrey did in that scenes was insult Tywin (admittedly he'd screwed up at other times) - Aerys, who wasn't a relative, did rather worse, over a long period of time, (6) Tywin also got Joffrey a sword, which would seem to be a waste if he was going to kill him, (7) even though Tywin likely can't stand Joffrey he'd be very much indirectly hurting his daughter Cersei by killing her son. I'm also a little dubious over Tyrion really being Tywin's 2nd least favourite person given he entrusted him with Hand of the King and often consulted with him such as after this scene. I would have thought Tywin would have preferred to keep Tyrion close, as he was a useful asset (Tywin acknowledges he was helpful in defending against Stanns) and it would give him more opportunity to humiliate him, which he seems to enjoy. He can't do that if Tyrion is at the Wall. And Olenna/LF seem to provide a pretty complete picture on how the Purple Wedding was carried out, I'm not sure how Tywin could have provided assistance.
But also if Tywin viewed Joffrey as being a danger to his vision of Lannisters sitting on the throne and to the prosperity of his family because of his despicable antics, he may have believed he had to get rid of Joffrey in order to accomplish that vision
Gosh, did I just see my username? I never thought my comment would even come close worth a mention. You just boosted my ego by 10 points! Damn, I'm not used to that feeling.
I don't like long videos or series, but I do love your quality content. Keep up the good work!
it was a great comment and thank you
Always click like before the video even starts. Love you guys so much
Thank you good ser! :)
True, Tywin is the apex of being a man that most men secretly wants to be. Powerful, wealthy, handsome, strong-minded, calculating, commanding, and able-bodied.
I would say a lot of men don't even make it a secret...he's pretty much good at everything except being a single dad
Ned Dayne of the young lord of starfall tells Arya that Ned stark and his aunt lady ashara fell in love at harrenhal. He then says Jon's mother is wylla and that he and Jon are milk brothers. The common belif is that a stark dishonored ashara at harrenhall.
She last danced with Ned stark who she danced with twice. It's common knowledge lady ashara was pregnant before the end of Robert's rebellion. However they say she commited suicide by jumping into the ocean when Ned returned dawn. They also say she had a still born girl. Now most wetnurses are lactating because they just had a child.
So with that in mind allow me to clarify the truth about Jon snow and young Griff.
Young Griff Is rhegar and lyannas child at the tower of joy.
Septa Lemoore who is with young Griff in essos is ashara Dayne
Wylla the wetnurse had a still born daughter which is why she was a wetnurse in the first place. She was at the tower of joy to help with the birth.
Sometime Atfer harrenhal Ned got ashara pregnant and promptly married her, just like rob did
Ashara gave birth to Jon snow just before the events at the tower of joy
Arthur Dayne tells Ned that she had a son when they meet at the tower
Ned returns dawn to starfall accompanied by Wylla, her stillborn daughter,and young Griff with his targ features.
Ashara shows Jon to Ned, Ned shows her young Griff who is being nursed by Wylla.
To keep his promise to lyanna and to hide the marriage between him and Ashara,(he has already married cat by now ) ashara takes young Griff into hiding.
Next the news is spread that ashara had a still born girl and they used wyllas still born girl
Ashara Dayne fakes her death (they never found her body) heads to essos with young Griff with the help of varys who some how finds out about what happened.
Wylla stays with Ned nurses baby Jon back to winterfell (when rob and cat get to winterfell Jon and his wetnurse are already there. And Jon grew up in winterfell so Wylla had to be there for a while as well
This all fits the Robert's. Rebellion time line as well with 9 to 11 months from Ned and the fisherman's daughter at sisterton to Ned returning dawn to starfall.
Wylla tells Cait about ashara Dayne and Ned sends her back to starfall. This happens 3 years into the marriage cat even remembers it this would also be 2 years before eldric Dayne is born allowing for travel time back to starfall . Meaning it fits the timelines and explains why her name was nver said again in winterfell
The half maester with young griff was winter fells maester the bastard son of arch maester walgrave from the patent chapter. Hence the name half maester
Thus making Jon Ned's only true born son, able to be the sword of the morning (Which Is in lyannas t
Crypt statue), and the rightfull lord of winterfell
When Jon joins the watch and Ned goes south there's no stark in winter fell rob and Rickon are snows. This also marks the point when everything went shifty for the starks specificly all the snows. Jon got off easy compared to the rest of his siblings
I'm anxious to see someone shoot this down...
Dude nice theory. I can also feel your pain, that you went through so much brain racking to come up with this and no one replied. But keep it up.
I think GRRM is beaming with pride by these vids!
i got 65/100 on the test. I knew there was a reason why i respected Tywin so much.
I'm a firm believer everyone should have a touch of Tywin/Machiavelli in them
Too bad Tywin never heard that line from Cicero: "We are all mortal". Tywin always talked of only having a few years left. But he did so in a manner as if to suggest that he was the one who . would determine exactly WHEN his final day would be. Even the Lion doesn't have that kind of power.
Hit the nail on the head again; Tywin was no doubt disgusted with Joffery's disposition, and Cersei's by proxy. He had a hand in the purple wedding, and I can't wait for it to somehow be revealed - possibly by LittleFinger. A man like Tywin didn't believe in half-measures (just like Gus Fring :) I'm really looking forward to the next installment of the old powers are rising series.
Omg Gus!! I love that line when Mike tells Walter, no more half measures.
I could go on for hours about the symbolism in Breaking Bad and Sons of Anarchy. You may or may not have seen it, one of the best TV series ever. GOT, BB, SoA - just three of the best shows ever. Tywin Lannister is beyond compare though as the ultimate Machiavellian long-game plotter.
PBR. I am a SOA junkie. I have seen every episode atleast 3-4 times. I am in love with that show. I watch it randomly just because. The writing was phenomenal, and characters so authentic. Dave and I argue constantly about Clay, with me defending him (this is Lady Green Hand), and him telling me he was the worst, but great, great show. Gemma is the gatekeeper, she knows every truth behind every lie inside every secret. Incredible. Katey Sagal did such a great job playing Gemma that I found myself actually liking her, and feeling bad when she got raped. I didn't even get that emotional when Sansa was raped by Ramsay. hahaha I could go on and on, that is one of my all time favorites.
also huge fan of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. The writing on both of those shows is incredible too. I have a soft spot for Jesse, and LOVE Mike. I'm the one who knocks.
The Order of the Green Hand better call Saul is doing such a great job for a spinoff. I just got done watching the latest episode.
The scene between Tywin and Joff wasn’t the only time Tywin got really pissed.
He was also furious at the meeting with his lords after Jaime was captured and also when Tyrion chose trial by combat instead of taking the black.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel that Tywin is rather overrated. I can give him credit for administrative skills, as well as creating a dreadful reputation, yet his accomplishments are questionable at least. Yes, he crushed Reynes and Tarbecks, though he had both the numbers and the backing of the king. And, taking into consideration the cruelty of that, I wonder noone calls him the Bloody Lion at least. He served Aerys, but it was during summer, which means little challenges for a Hand. He failed to achieve either death of Aerys or Cersei/Rgaegar marriage. More than that he had openly defied his king, by showing little regard wether he lived or dead. He waited out the Rebellion, though he had little option since his son was with King. However, Tywin was lucky that Robert won, since otherwise Aerys would demand explanation for Tywin not responding to his pleas. He wed Cersei to Robert, yet failed to secure Joffrey as a sane and stable heir. His family affairs were a disaster - especially after Joanna's death. His only confidant was his brother Kevan, the rest he saw a disappointment (except of Tygett, maybe). In feudal society it was crucial for a ruler to groom an heir and establish a clear successiorn And Tywin failed both. Neither has he chosen an heir to West, nor did he took time to put some sence into any of his children or grandchildren right untill Joffrey died.
As a military commander, he has been beaten whenever he had not an overwhelming advantage and there is someone he could take credit from, (Blackwater) or his opponents were a bunch of peasants.
As a player, he hardly was one, since his goal was to restore the statys quo. Littlefinger arranged rivalry between Starks and Lannisters, effectviely provoking Tywin into attacking Riverlands. And if Robert was not killed by a boar, Tywin would be in trouble for breaking kings peace. It was Littlefinger, who betrayed Ned and then arranged the Tyrell alliance, which saved Joffery from the rightfull king. In the end, Tywin was used as a counter to Robb and Stannis and when the first attended a wedding and latter was beaten and sailed to the Wall, the real players saw no need to keep Tywin alive.
In the end, his legacy began to crumble the moment he took a crossbow bolt. And with Kevan's death there is little hope for house Lannister.
This is gonna be long, but hear me out.
I think Tywin, being the pragmatic that he was, should have found himself a new wife to sire more children with, since men don't have an age limit on fertility (except in cases of medical conditions). His affections for Joanna be damned. She was dead now, and he was officially eligible for a new marriage. He could have very well married a Tyrrell. Maybe not Margery, but I'm sure she has plenty of cousins to choose from. By doing so he would also get to consolidate an alliance with the Reach. That would mean lots of food for his army, too. And you know what they say, that soldiers march on a full stomach.
Plenty of old kings with young wives, it wasn't unusual for the time. But that does bring forth the speculations and fan theories that he might have been infertile, at least in his later years in life.
It's true that with children born of different mothers fratricide is common in nobility, but from my understanding of the books and Westeros lore, fratricide and regicide was heavily frowned upon. That and if Tywin only cared about, and invested his time in his flesh family more, then things could have turned out very differently, and we might have gotten a dinasty of lions.
Let Jaime be a foot soldier if he wants. He'd be an excellent choice to be a guard to a Lannister heir (surely he'd try extra hard to keep his blood safe). Cersei would need to be dealt with, as she'd surely try to push her children forth before accepting children born from a different mother other than her own, even if that would benefit the Lannister name more (different priorities and most importantly horrible with power as opposed to Tywin).
Tyrion could make an excellent advisor and army general if only Tywin looked past his exterior and actually raised him as his own son, regardless of his paternity.
For a man as focused on getting his blood on the throne and maintaining the power and prestige of his family as Tywin, he's too emotionally invested (that's right, the stone cold man has somehow managed to drop his rationality and failed to look beyond his emotions at a critical point) in his family members to see them for who he thinks (and wants) them to be, instead of who they are.
Admittedly he wasn't the warm and fatherly type, but he could have at least tried to be more attentive and invested in his children and grandchildren's lives. Case in point even his enemies respected, admired and learned from him more than his family did.
GRRM seems to be a fan of the classical Greek tragedy, writing tragic and almost unavoidable yet ironic endings to his characters as result of their personality flaws (think Ned, Daenerys, Vyseris, Robb, Catelyn, Cersei and Jaime etc.).
IMHO Tywin was running a charade. I would guess that he has more skeletons in his closet than any other character in the series. Cersei and Jamie aren't his kids and his only real son is the one he never wanted. Maybe I am crazy but I draw parallels between the act of Tyrion killing Joanna during birth to Victarion killing his wife after being impregnated by Euron. Tywin isn't as savage as an ironborn, so he wouldn't beat Joanna to death, but his act of impregnating her with his only TRUE son who in turn killed his cheating wife in childbirth could be highly symbolic. Tywin, like Victarion, was deeply pained by the loss of his wife, and also like Victarion, shied away from women for the rest of his life.
The problem with Tywin's comment about the Red Wedding is that he didn't kill a dozen people. He killed most of Robb's host, which numbered in the thousands. His comment to Tyrion is an out-right lie.
I do not think it is a hypocrisy, inasmuch as Shay is concerned:
"It's no crime for officers to do as they please
As long as they're discreet and keep clear of disease
We ignore, we disregard
But once they allow a bit on the side
To move to the center where she's not qualified
We are forced be on our guard" :)
"DON'T HATE US" you say????
The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep, y'all. Good job.
i know right! :D!! thank you
Personal favorite Tywin Quote: "You don't need to make formal alliances with people you trust."
i wish you guys could be in contact with GRR and the directors of the spinoffs. clearly nothing gets past you two and you guys make some amazing distinctions that really are thought provoking and with so many quotes from the book, unlike so many others who post videos for views and content
it would probably be the coolest thing ever if we could...we'd make ourselves available
Tywinn was one shrewd dude... perhaps the best planner in Westeros?
very true!
Tywin understands abstract concepts but not people. He values "family" but not _family_ .
sad to see another good series end! I really enjoyed these, you two did him justice. what part of the series do you plan on tackling next?
Tywin was fun but we wanted to finish him up so we can really get into the gods and the role we think they play in the magical abilities people have in the story
Nice! Very interesting take on the Purple Wedding, first time I heard this theory and I can ship it. Could you two possibly do a video about the scheming Tyrells Garlan and Willas or maybe my favourite character Roose Bolton? I think there is more to the Dreadfort than we know yet! Anyways, awesome as always, keep it up :)
My 3 favorite characters in the show
3. Roose Bolton
2. Tywin Lannister
1. Littelfinger
All because they saw the world for what it was if Robb listened to boltons war advice they might have won he only betrayed him cause Robb wouldn't listen. Tywin would be first but his major flaw is only thinking of his family legacy and not seeing the true threat in littlefinger. That's why little ginger is my favorite cause he is so behind the scenes even varys is scared of him. I know the show is going in a way different story than the books but I think the books will show more of his plans cause right now he is in control of the biggest and strongest army
I still think that Jamie and Cersei are Aerys children and Tyrion is and was Tywin's only true heir
Great videos. Have you guys thought about doing another, why blank sucks series, maybe about Dany.
yea we can't figure out who to do it on though. !
and thank you!
The Order of the Green Hand Doran Martell
The Order of the Green Hand Please do Dany
"The man will fight to the bitter end, and then some" ...
Stannis becomes an other?
HBO shud make a series out of Tywin entitled The Lion of Casterly Rock
One subtle plot point I love, not related to Tywin but brought him in the chapter extract, is that Joffrey really did look up to Robert as a father. Cersei was right in saying Robert ignored him but rather than making Joffrey hate Robert, it actually made him crave affection. That's why he tried to get Bran murdered, he thought it would make Robert respect him purely based on an off the cuff remark the Robert made when alone with his family.
Heh. Just finished binge watching this series a few hours ago and wondered when you would make another video. Oh well, let's do this *que the theme song
exactly! haha
The thing i hate is when people say tywin beat robb he didint poor writing did robb was beating tywin left and right beacuse tywin isint a general every battle we know he won was won via numbers or tricks not strategy tywin is a politician and i think a massive psychopath with how he treated tysha witch i find sick and he also doomed himself with porley raising his kids
Mark Hayes True but tearing your enemy apart from the inside is far more effective than fighting the head on.
Good point about the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding was brutal, yes. But if I was in Tywin's position, I'd give the go-ahead as well, no matter how deplorable I considered such an act. Killing a dozen people and ending a war, seems like a pretty good outcome when you look at it from Tywin's perspective.
reefa2931 They didn't kill just a dozen people though. They also killed all of Robb's forces camped outside the Twins, a number in the thousands.
Peace was not an option and surrender wasn't on the table either. In circumstances like that, the war ends only when the other side is killed. Someone's army is dying. Robb's men all killed vs a protracted war that will kill multiple times that number. Still seems like a no-brainer to me.
EDIT: In fact, I think I'm not even sure that it is a despicable move. If you can decisively and quickly end a war that is destroying the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, aren't you morally obligated to do so?
The statement isn't logical ethically, it's short sighted.
It would only be true in an isolated event, not in a real living breathing world where consequences echo throughout the years.
Killing a dozen at dinner is worse because you've just made war worse. In the past war was brutal, but you could at least rest comfortable knowing that there were certain times you were safe, there were certain safeguards in place that might prevent you from easily killing your enemies, but which also protect you.
Tywin ruined that, and the effects are clearly shown throughout the books, after the red wedding, all bets are off, it's mentioned several times that since the red wedding, you can no longer expect anything.
It's the same reason we don't use certain weapons in our world, even if they might cut short a war, because we know that there will be more conflicts, and in the end, it's not worth it.
The statement isn't clever, it's stupid, and not worth a Tywinism.
You talk about ending a war as if there will be no future wars, but there will be, and they will be worse because of what Tywin did.
No offence, but you're response just seems like vapid pontificating.
1) You have to prove that both or all sides in the war have an equal understanding and *need* of these "safeguards" that will be broken.
2) "all bets are off, it's mentioned several times that since the red wedding, you can no longer expect anything." This is a pretty worthless statement. It's just a fancy way of saying that you don't know what these disastrous future consequences will be, but ooooooooo you know they will be bad. Please.
3) "It's the same reason we don't use certain weapons in our world, even if they might cut short a war" The reason why we don't use weapons like nukes (for example) is because we have *seen* their power and the devastation they're capable of. If no-one knew what a nuke could do, they would be far quicker to fling them at their enemies, but since we do, we don't. Thus far, the only consequences of slaughtering Robb's forces that you have cited are that "all bets are off" and that we "can expect anything". Hardly a valid comparison, wouldn't you agree.
4) "You talk about ending a war as if there will be no future wars, but there will be, and they will be worse because of what Tywin did." Wars have been ended in similar ways to what Tywin did (Daeron's Dornish War for example) and future wars haven't been "worse" in any marked way as a result. Again, you've made a nebulous statement about the oh-so-terrible consequences, but have neglected to mention what they actually are.
Tywin didn't break Guest Right, blame Frey & Bolton for that.
Wtf I fucking love Tywin now
That whole series was absolutely brilliant! After this, I truly believe that Tywin also had a hand in Joffrey's death. He rids himself of an insullent little turd who will never take council from his wiser elders, secures Tommen, who will easily be Tywin's pawn, rids himself of Tyrion, and has a thumb over Olenna Tyrrell and Littlefinger. However, looks like Tyrion bested him. It's unfortunate that Tywin & Tyrion couldn't play nice together. They'd have really been able to get things accomplished! I'd love to take time to ponder what other events he's had his hands in. Fantastic series!
Got 65/100 on the Machivallie test, but I dunno if I trust the result...
So sad this amazing series had to come to an end & have to relive the loss of one of the best players of the great game...RIP Tywin
sorry to disappoint, but we needed to end a few series so we could keep moving forward with LF, the Faceless Men, the Wars to Come and the Gods without feeling like Tywin was hanging over our heads unfinished...he does so much that we probably could have turned it into a 10 video series, but how much Tywin can we really expect people to watch
The Order of the Green Hand Oh, I'm not disappointed! I can't wait for the upcoming projects from you guys! Especially LF & COTF...I was just trying to express how great of a job you did on this amazing character by way of it being hard to say goodbye
This serie about Tywin Lannister is awesome!Well done!
thank you
Great video as usual!! Hadn't even considered Tywin being involved in the purple wedding. Shatters my theory that Tyrion was the intended target and Joff only died because he eat Tyrions slice of pie. I noticed after Tyrion gets the chalice and serves him, Joff had Two long drinks of wine and some of Tyrions pie before he feels the effects of the poison and cant drink a third(he has time to answer Margaery and remark the pie is dry and needs washing down.Whereas Cressen, feels the effect instantly and cant reply to Melisandre after just a small drink.) I was angling at the Lemon cream that was spooned onto the pigeon pie when it was served to Tyrion. ahh well back to the drawing board. Great series !!!!
Honestly, I never saw Tywin as a monster or evil person. Just a man that was quite brilliant with what he did...Looked upon by others as a brilliant leader, cunning strategist, and superior to others.
Only in the end to be killed by the son he hated. Showing that he was only a man like the rest.
Bishop Thomas, He got the short end of the stick when it comes to competent allies
Poor Tywin. If only he lived in an age that had DNA tests and the Jerry Springer show, he would know for sure if Tyrion was his son or not.
I want to ask you same questions, about which you didn´t spoke in this series:
1. Why do you think Tywin said whore the second time?
2. Do you think Tywin was poisoned? If so, who do you think did it?
3: What do you think was Tywin´s plan with promising Joy Hill to both, the Frey´s and the Westerling´s?
1) because he had zero fear of Tyrion
2) no, because I can't see how he would have been poisoned, and he never showed even the slightest hint that he was
3) not sure
2) But Tyrion describes him more than once as looking like he has been poisoned and there are also this bizarre smell and smile of Tywin´s corpse. There are other hints as well, besides them.
Machiavelli Personality Test:
Your score was 68 of 100.
This puts you in the category of the high Machs, people who do not belive in the goodness of the world and that because that it must be manipulated, people who Machiavelli would approve of.
Really interesting series! I love how Martin intertwines history with the series. I appreciate the academic approach you guys took in examing the text. I would be interested to see some other videos on possible historical references in ASOIAF
This series was awesome, Lord Tywin has always been one of my favorite characters. Imagine if he had POV chapters of his own, we would be able to know so much more about him
I loved this series. I like the theory that tywinn was poisoned already and that explained his foul odor. But by whom?????? Maybe a future video.
Actually, just because Littlefinger told Sansa something, doesn't mean he told the truth. Anyways, another great vid.
I always viewed tywins character pretty straight forwardly. hes that harshly judging expecting too much and loving too little father figure. i absolutely love your work. im a firm believer in your kings guard north of the wall order of the greenhand theories it was eye opening to me especially when i thought of the story with tormund and the she -bear. i think your val is jon snows twin is a stretch. i dont see the point in the narrative for that to be true. but i do think youre aegon 6 is the tower of joy baby is very compelling as ive never been a fan of RLJ. red herring. have you ever read the wheel of time series? its absolutely epic in scope and it was actually just picked up for a tv series.
Tywin was one of the best charakters. The realm prospoured under him. Tywin is a truly good man!
"We can arrange to have you carried."
hahaha exactly.
Thank you! I've argued Tywin was totally behind Joff's death for a million years!
And from now on, instead of just repeating how grateful I am that you both make these videos.. I am going to start commenting at my potential. I'm smart enough, but my excitement just throws me in a loop lol
hahahaha, that's great, you know we love us some gaming with a white guy
Tywin dislike Tyrion's behavior as it brings mockery to House Lannister. Well, so much for "A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of a sheep." Perhaps Tywin had to use so much half-truths and lies that he doesn't know which words to abide by. Besides, he is a practical man. If he have to bend and/or break a few words to gain an advantage that cannot be obtained by more honorable ways, why not?
Very true. I hate the red wedding but also seem to agree with Tywin.
i know its hard to deny that his statement lacks any semblance of logic...:)
yay my day is better with another fine video from the order of the green hand
perfect!
The statement isn't logical ethically, it's short sighted.
It would only be true in an isolated event, not in a real living breathing world where consequences echo throughout the years.
Killing a dozen at dinner is worse because you've just made war worse. In the past war was brutal, but you could at least rest comfortable knowing that there were certain times you were safe, there were certain safeguards in place that might prevent you from easily killing your enemies, but which also protect you.
Tywin ruined that, and the effects are clearly shown throughout the books, after the red wedding, all bets are off, it's mentioned several times that since the red wedding, you can no longer expect anything.
It's the same reason we don't use certain weapons in our world, even if they might cut short a war, because we know that there will be more conflicts, and in the end, it's not worth it.
The statement isn't clever, it's stupid, and not worth a Tywinism.
"Thats right... im a Humanitarian" Tywin Lannister xD
Problem with Tywin having anything to do with Joffrey's murder: he is extremely conservative. Kinslaying is portrayed as perhaps the worst taboo in Westeros - with good reason, we hear of almost no case of fraticide.
Also, a Lannister openly being poisoned? He could have Pycelle poison him much easier, and it would look as if Joffrey died in his sleep. Occam's Razor. It just doesn't fit.
Tywin’s “golden eyes”… a curious description by GRRM, esp given the children’s golden eyes. I always thought, in the show, that when they zoomed in on the children making the first white Walker, that it looked like a younger Tywin in the face. I’m not saying he’s that, but I found that curious nonetheless. 🤔
About the quote "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner" That's not the entire truth, most of Robb's 3500 men were slaughtered unarmed while feasting. I don't understand why this is overlooked by Tywin and Tyrion and even by you guys. Sure it still probably resulted in less deaths than if the war between the Stark's and Lannister's had continued, and I'm not here to say what was right and wrong because I don't know, but surely those 3500 deaths is something worth taking in to consideration when discussing this topic?
Anyways, great video as allways :), I'm learning so much from them
Joffery was so insane that if he hadn't died at the purple wedding. That he would have tried to have Tywin murdered. Then it would have really gotten interesting. Tywin would have strangled him in the throne room.
How many times Cersei and Joffrey have been compared to Arys, I am more and more sure that actually Cersei and Jaime are Arys's children! And wouldnlt that be such poetic justice by George? He did say many times Tyrion is his favourite character. Imagine if Tyrion was Tywin's only child :D
The thing is, in that scene with Joffrey, there is a sense that if Joffrey had properly asserted himself he could have pushed back and remained at the table. Tywin was implicitly showing Joffrey exactly the sort of power a king should demand, but Joffrey was too stupid to see the lesson. He looked at the lesson as a child being punished, not a sitting monarch in a lesson on power.
Ultimately Tywin is not petty. He has exacting standards but he was not personally offended by joffrey's remarks. He was just flabbergasted at his grandson's ignorance and used the opportunity to try and teach his grandson a lesson, but Joffrey was too stupid to absorb the lesson.
The satisfaction of having Joffrey dragged away and drugged on a whim is a consolation prize. What he really wanted was for Joffrey to stand up to Tywin and be correct. He wanted the king to have the balls to actually be kingly.
It's also worth noting that Tywin treats Tyrion in a similar way that Machiavelli says Cesare treated Remirro de Orco when Cesare took over Romagna. Tywin attributes a bunch of new Taxes to Tyrion (such as a brothel tax) and then has Tyrion punished, this allows him to distance himself from the Taxes while still benifiting from them and when Tyrion is exiled the people will be happy while still being taxed the same
Your score was 68 of 100.
This puts you in the category of the high Machs, people who do not belive in the goodness of the world and that because that it must be manipulated, people who Machiavelli would approve of.
A graph of how others who have taken this have scores is below. These scores should not be taken as population norms though, the people who seek out tests of machivellianism on the internet are most likely not representative.
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Well ye URL & IRL thughts and actions differ :P
Tywin should have killed Cersei with Joffery.
89/ 100. I blame some of it on my Asperger's Syndrome. I blame the rest on having insanely optimistic parents who believe in the mythical goodness of humanity
and tywin liked whores, when tyrion first comes to alayaya, and walks trough the tunnel, varys tells him it was built for the Hand who's honour did not permit him to be viewed publicly enter a whorehouse. Now, who likes honour? Ned and Tywin - but Ned was to shortly a hand...
There's a Tupac joke just waiting to be made.
I aint mad at ya
Very detailed character assessment. If your thoughts on Tywin's role in Joff's murder are correct and it was to be the perfect means of achieving his goal of a worthy Lannister on the throne, getting rid of Tyrion, and forcing Jamie's hand in taking his rightful position, then it would seem Tywin blew it by miscalculating and allowing Shae to be called as a witness in Tyrion's trial. Because he never took a real interest in his children's lives, he failed to see that this betrayal would be too much for Tyrion to handle, and he would not stick to the plan orchestrated by Tywin and Jamie. Tywin had everything within his reach, but he shot himself in the foot and lost it all.
I always kinda hated tywin by how ruthless and cold he was to everyone, but I realized it was because ultimately he was a victim of circumstance, or more so was a witness to it. Growing up, he saw how shitty his father was treated and died with no worthy legacy behind. Realizing this, he knew not to let it happen to him so he makes it his life's work to put himself in a "fuck you" position in westeros. A position where he can do damn near whatever he wants to whoever and still say "fuck you."
It's just a shame though, his own ambition and determination is what made him flawed as a father figure which in a way caused his own problems.
But I will definitely say he was the most powerful character and probably should have been king. I can't knock his hustle, he's someone you want on your side, with more loyalty of course
13:55 he's not so much at the finish line. It's more like he's doing a family relay race -being the front runner by far-, but the next one up is still tying their shoe laces and being generally distracted (his kids), and those after that are even picking their nose and smoking a joint (Joffrey). Essentially undoing allll of his effort.
Jamie never agrees to leave his position with the kings guard in the books.
Who did your Lord & Lady of the Green Hand drawings? Is one of you an artist?
hello! do you mean the order of the green hand intro photo? :)
Yes - the one with the knight on one side and the lady with the blonde braid on the other.
That is a knight of the green hand on the left from the role playing game (I think) and the right is Wylla Manderly. She's a character in ADWD. :) I really would love if we made them
Ourselves! Are you an artist?
I'm a writer. I've just started learning drawing & painting, and it's opened up a new world.