🦸♂ Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy68 ⚡ Kickstart your EFI Tuning knowledge. Get 50% OFF your first online course: hpcdmy.co/offery68 TIME STAMPS: 0:00 - High-end Motorsport 0:10 - 'Conventional' Gearbox: Syncromesh 1:09 - Faster Way: Dog Gears 1:53 - Shifting Speed 2:14 - No Clutch! 2:38 - H Pattern OR Sequential 2:58 - Sequential Gearbox Setup 3:28 - Free Stuff
Great video explaining things. I used to have a car with a CAT engagement gearbox so it would only go into the right gear when it felt like it and sometimes it was taking a nap and would not respond. DOG's are better and tend to be better at following instructions :)
Hey, anyone here can tell me the reason no car manufacturer opts for this type of gearbox and integrates it with engine like the bike engine. so that the structure of engine suppresses the noise made by the dog gears.
@@JohnKickboxingFirst of all, integrating the transmission with the engine will have no effect on noise. To drown out the dog engagement sound, the engine will have to be made much louder, via intake, exhaust, engine mounts, etc, and while I along with most other enthusiasts wouldn't care, in reality, us enthusiasts are an extremely small proportion of car buyers. The other significant issue with a dog engagement transmission is the greatly reduced wear life. For fast shifting, yet good wear life, and even low noise, there is already an option on the market: the dual clutch transmission. Yes, it's heavier than a manual, and has less driver engagement, but it shifts faster than any dog engagement manual and can be tuned to always shift perfectly, unlike a human, so it is the optimal choice for performance. Dual clutch transmissions can also handle much more power with stock clutches than a manual.
Dog boxes work well in motorcycles because they only weight about 200 kg and don’t put out a huge amount of torque, so they are able to last for a few hundred thousand kms without significant wear and tear. For cars that you sell to the general public and weigh 1500 kg and produce 500 hp, you want something VERY reliable.
Thank you for this video and clear vision into dogboxes! I'd like to ask what gear selector is preferred for a transmission like this, for street and track driving since it will be a actuated off a switch?
Synchros are super simple - the synchro is a cone on cone fit (causing it to smoothly jam into the main gear). It has the same set of dogs on it that the gear does, so then the shift fork pushes the collar into it, it syncs up to the collar. Then it slides into the cone of the intended gear, which is the momentary "stop" you feel, where friction syncs up the gear to collar or collar to gear. Then the force on the dogs eases amd the collar can slide in. If you bash it in and there's no time for the cones to engage (or if you overpower the friction that's preventing the collar from sliding past the synchro ring), you will grind the dogs on the gear against the collar. Not exactly what you want in that situation 🤔
No. The torque reversal that occurs between coast and drive only lasts a split second. The gear will rotate about 20º in relation to the dogring, and then the gear/dogring will be locked together again. If you are pulling on the gearstick during the transition between coast and drive, you can snatch the dogring away from the gear - but you kinda have to try to make it happen. It's the same with a synched transmission - I'm sure you've ever noticed you can pull the trans out of gear during a transition between coast and drive - but again, you must do it on purpose. That said, there are highly specialized drag racing gear boxes that have the raked face on the engagement dogs for keeping the gear and dogring locked together while under load - but the back side of the engagement dog is ramped to specifically push the dogring away - unselecting the gear. In these transmissions, each dogring is dedicated to a single gear, unlike the transmission shown in this video where each dogring serves two gears. Anyway, the point of the specialized drag racing dogbox is so you can select the next higher gear WITHOUT having taking the previous gear out of engagement. As the shaft speed increases on account of the higher gear being selected, the previous gear overruns the dogring, the dogring hits the ramp, and gets kicked out of gear. The obvious advantage being a shorter overall amount of time for the shift. Disadvantage being you can't engine brake at all. Hope that explanation helped.
If that's a issue you're having, it usually means the bearings are worn and allowing the helical gear to physically pull it out of engagement, the bearings are moving in the housing/on the shaft for ditto, and/ or the indent spring is damaged or broken. With some front wheel drive vehicles, broken engine mounts can allow the engine-transmission assembly to move enough to pull it out of gear. In either internal or external cases, you will probably see excess gear lever movement.
@@dataminetk correct. But for a manual dog box it provides for the possibility to drive or race like a two pedal car. In our Danish DTC car we had a G-force 4-speed dog box, and our driver left foot braked and drove like a two pedal car, and only used the clutch pedal for setting off.
if the free valve had been a thing, the idea of simply opening the exhaust earlier would maintain boost and give torque cut... ignition cut? what, all that nice fuel going out the exhaust cold and unburnt? may as well light it up and keep the turbo toasty. almost has me tempted to stuff around with the decomp lever on my diesel... now, if it were cam operated to only act on the power/exhaust strokes...
@@paradiselost9946I may be wrong but isn't ignition cutting used to keep the turbo running? Letting the unburned fuel ignite in the hot headers and turbo resulting in flames coming out the exhaust and and the boost staying high
@@denimpantz not really. NASCAR gearboxes deal with WAY more torque output than most race cars ever do. 700 lb-ft of constant torque at WOT for hours at a time isn't something you find in ANY other discipline of motorsport. Add to that the fact that there were no paddle shifters until very recently, and those gearboxes take an absolute beating.
Dogbox is non sense on streetcars cause it ruins quickly.. as far as racecars, dogbox is much less effective than sequential box.. more, lots of racecars use synchrmesh with straightcut gears or less pitch gears to split forces. Transmission style cannot beat huge engine horsepower!
@nospeedlimits7777 forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe that syncromesh in transmissions are almost always used for only street applications since it's a more comfortable way of gear engagement and synchronization. Dogboxes don't use syncromesh. They use dog mesh or dog gears, so they allow the driver to just rip it into the gear without the use of a clutch. "Sequential" is just how the gear is selected, like a sequential gear selector. The transmission and the gear selector are two different things. I think you're referring to how the gears are selected instead of the gearbox itself, which is H-pattern or sequential lever/paddle shifters, and the lack of H pattern gear selectors in racing. And yes, the use of dog gears is super inconvenient on the street, but you will almost always see them on the racetrack, not syncromesh. I don't mean to spread misinformation, though.
@@cornedbeef4332and you're right when you say dog gears are much more faster shifting than synchromesh ones simply because in dogbox there's nothing between a gear and next. But it is sure synchromesh lasts way more than dog. Many brands provide dogbox for professional racing and synchromesh less pitch beefier gears for amateur racing demanding low cost. Not a matter with your correct explanation. Only I add one more option for those not allowing to go higher price and wear out dogbox. Thanks mate for all big racing info!
@nospeedlimits7777 oh yeah syncromesh lasts way longer, 100%. No doubt about that. No problem man, I didn't wanna sound dumb, I just wanted to make sure about what i was saying.
🦸♂ Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy68
⚡ Kickstart your EFI Tuning knowledge. Get 50% OFF your first online course: hpcdmy.co/offery68
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - High-end Motorsport
0:10 - 'Conventional' Gearbox: Syncromesh
1:09 - Faster Way: Dog Gears
1:53 - Shifting Speed
2:14 - No Clutch!
2:38 - H Pattern OR Sequential
2:58 - Sequential Gearbox Setup
3:28 - Free Stuff
Great video explaining things.
I used to have a car with a CAT engagement gearbox so it would only go into the right gear when it felt like it and sometimes it was taking a nap and would not respond.
DOG's are better and tend to be better at following instructions :)
Hey, anyone here can tell me the reason no car manufacturer opts for this type of gearbox and integrates it with engine like the bike engine. so that the structure of engine suppresses the noise made by the dog gears.
@@JohnKickboxingFirst of all, integrating the transmission with the engine will have no effect on noise. To drown out the dog engagement sound, the engine will have to be made much louder, via intake, exhaust, engine mounts, etc, and while I along with most other enthusiasts wouldn't care, in reality, us enthusiasts are an extremely small proportion of car buyers. The other significant issue with a dog engagement transmission is the greatly reduced wear life. For fast shifting, yet good wear life, and even low noise, there is already an option on the market: the dual clutch transmission. Yes, it's heavier than a manual, and has less driver engagement, but it shifts faster than any dog engagement manual and can be tuned to always shift perfectly, unlike a human, so it is the optimal choice for performance. Dual clutch transmissions can also handle much more power with stock clutches than a manual.
Dog boxes work well in motorcycles because they only weight about 200 kg and don’t put out a huge amount of torque, so they are able to last for a few hundred thousand kms without significant wear and tear.
For cars that you sell to the general public and weigh 1500 kg and produce 500 hp, you want something VERY reliable.
I always wondered but never actually looked it up, thank you for the short informative video!
Dream transaxle there!
Another excellent video guys! Thank you for all your hard work!!
Great video! I've never 100% understood how dogs work, got it straight away here.
Fantastic video! Clear and informative! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for this video and clear vision into dogboxes! I'd like to ask what gear selector is preferred for a transmission like this, for street and track driving since it will be a actuated off a switch?
Another excellent video!
Same as a motorcycle transmission shifter forks and gears.
1 down 5 up
I would love to see an in depth video of the Hollinger factory. Not a lot about them on the internet.
Dogboxes makeva lot of sense to me, because it's how basically all motorcycles work. Synchros are still mysterious to me.
Synchros are super simple - the synchro is a cone on cone fit (causing it to smoothly jam into the main gear). It has the same set of dogs on it that the gear does, so then the shift fork pushes the collar into it, it syncs up to the collar. Then it slides into the cone of the intended gear, which is the momentary "stop" you feel, where friction syncs up the gear to collar or collar to gear. Then the force on the dogs eases amd the collar can slide in.
If you bash it in and there's no time for the cones to engage (or if you overpower the friction that's preventing the collar from sliding past the synchro ring), you will grind the dogs on the gear against the collar. Not exactly what you want in that situation 🤔
Is it common for the selector ring to pop out when you go from full to 0 load?
No. The torque reversal that occurs between coast and drive only lasts a split second. The gear will rotate about 20º in relation to the dogring, and then the gear/dogring will be locked together again. If you are pulling on the gearstick during the transition between coast and drive, you can snatch the dogring away from the gear - but you kinda have to try to make it happen. It's the same with a synched transmission - I'm sure you've ever noticed you can pull the trans out of gear during a transition between coast and drive - but again, you must do it on purpose.
That said, there are highly specialized drag racing gear boxes that have the raked face on the engagement dogs for keeping the gear and dogring locked together while under load - but the back side of the engagement dog is ramped to specifically push the dogring away - unselecting the gear. In these transmissions, each dogring is dedicated to a single gear, unlike the transmission shown in this video where each dogring serves two gears. Anyway, the point of the specialized drag racing dogbox is so you can select the next higher gear WITHOUT having taking the previous gear out of engagement. As the shaft speed increases on account of the higher gear being selected, the previous gear overruns the dogring, the dogring hits the ramp, and gets kicked out of gear. The obvious advantage being a shorter overall amount of time for the shift. Disadvantage being you can't engine brake at all.
Hope that explanation helped.
If that's a issue you're having, it usually means the bearings are worn and allowing the helical gear to physically pull it out of engagement, the bearings are moving in the housing/on the shaft for ditto, and/ or the indent spring is damaged or broken.
With some front wheel drive vehicles, broken engine mounts can allow the engine-transmission assembly to move enough to pull it out of gear.
In either internal or external cases, you will probably see excess gear lever movement.
Damn guys thanks those are great answers.
Might sound like a stupid question, but can chipped teeth on dog gears be repaired, or are the gear kits knackery after that point?
You don’t need an ECU controlled torque cut, a lift of the throttle pedal should suffice.
true, but that could cause a loss of boost (on a turbo engine) so will be slower than a momentary ignition cut.
@@dataminetk correct. But for a manual dog box it provides for the possibility to drive or race like a two pedal car. In our Danish DTC car we had a G-force 4-speed dog box, and our driver left foot braked and drove like a two pedal car, and only used the clutch pedal for setting off.
if the free valve had been a thing, the idea of simply opening the exhaust earlier would maintain boost and give torque cut...
ignition cut? what, all that nice fuel going out the exhaust cold and unburnt? may as well light it up and keep the turbo toasty.
almost has me tempted to stuff around with the decomp lever on my diesel... now, if it were cam operated to only act on the power/exhaust strokes...
No, but it's a LOT nicer (and more repeatable) as well as less harsh on the drivetrain.
@@paradiselost9946I may be wrong but isn't ignition cutting used to keep the turbo running? Letting the unburned fuel ignite in the hot headers and turbo resulting in flames coming out the exhaust and and the boost staying high
what about straight cut syncromesh gears? I heard they're not as noisy
The straight cut is what makes them noisy. Synchro or dog engagement won't affect the noise because they only lock together once.
You don't need to use the clutch when you upshifting but you have to use it when downshiftibg
Not necessarily. You can rev match a dogbox as well. You just rev in neutral instead of clutch down.
You know, it always interested me how drivers in NASCAR shifted the H pattern without the clutch. Now I know why.
And now you also know why NASCAR gearboxes are INSANELY overbuilt lol.
@@spdcrzy That’s just race cars in general lmao
@@denimpantz not really. NASCAR gearboxes deal with WAY more torque output than most race cars ever do. 700 lb-ft of constant torque at WOT for hours at a time isn't something you find in ANY other discipline of motorsport. Add to that the fact that there were no paddle shifters until very recently, and those gearboxes take an absolute beating.
Which is faster Sequential or DCT?
In a tiny nutshell, sequential dog box/'manual'. Lighter & more efficient power delivery too. Trade off is NVH & more maintenance - Taz
You have a regular manual gearbox without Synchromesh. The so-called non-synchronized manual gearbox that was used in the 70s in f1
they should remove the synchros from sport manual cars
People who put a dogbox in a street car seem to regret it. It would be cool though and I'd prefer a new dog to a worn synchro
Dogbox is non sense on streetcars cause it ruins quickly.. as far as racecars, dogbox is much less effective than sequential box.. more, lots of racecars use synchrmesh with straightcut gears or less pitch gears to split forces. Transmission style cannot beat huge engine horsepower!
@nospeedlimits7777 forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe that syncromesh in transmissions are almost always used for only street applications since it's a more comfortable way of gear engagement and synchronization. Dogboxes don't use syncromesh. They use dog mesh or dog gears, so they allow the driver to just rip it into the gear without the use of a clutch. "Sequential" is just how the gear is selected, like a sequential gear selector. The transmission and the gear selector are two different things. I think you're referring to how the gears are selected instead of the gearbox itself, which is H-pattern or sequential lever/paddle shifters, and the lack of H pattern gear selectors in racing. And yes, the use of dog gears is super inconvenient on the street, but you will almost always see them on the racetrack, not syncromesh. I don't mean to spread misinformation, though.
@@cornedbeef4332and you're right when you say dog gears are much more faster shifting than synchromesh ones simply because in dogbox there's nothing between a gear and next. But it is sure synchromesh lasts way more than dog. Many brands provide dogbox for professional racing and synchromesh less pitch beefier gears for amateur racing demanding low cost. Not a matter with your correct explanation. Only I add one more option for those not allowing to go higher price and wear out dogbox. Thanks mate for all big racing info!
@nospeedlimits7777 oh yeah syncromesh lasts way longer, 100%. No doubt about that. No problem man, I didn't wanna sound dumb, I just wanted to make sure about what i was saying.