Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy32 50% OFF your first engine building course. Enrol now: hpcdmy.co/offery32 TIME STAMPS: 0:00 - Welcome 1:25 - Common myths 7:35 - What are we trying to achieve? 16:45 - Considerations 19:35 - Camshaft break in issues 25:05 - ZDDP 27:30 - HPA break in process 39:00 - Questions
Wow what a world we live in. Being able to get a professional engine builder to give us a "how to " on fresh engine break-in with a few taps on your phone is priceless. Thank you so much Andre, much appreciated.
Newzealander for beginners: "Beer ring" = A mechanical element used allow rotational movement and reduce friction between two parts. "Heed" = The upper part of an engine, bolted to the engine block. Usually houses the combustion chambers. "In gin" = The mechanical powerplant of a vehicle. "Beed in" = To wear mechanical parts together accurately through use. :D
No you got it all wrong mate. A Beer Ring is the mark your Fosters can leaves on the coffee table from sweat because you couldn't bring yourself to take another sip of the nasty stuff. Heed - that's what my wife gives me. In gin - that's when you drank so much gin you can't walk straight. Beed in - That's what it's called when people catch beads at a Mardi Gras parade.
I work at an OEM'er building big diesel engines. Every engine is tested for 15 minutes. 5 minutes of heating up, making sure all pressures are correct, nothing is leaking etc. Then after 5 minutes its full throttle all the way. Cold oil, somewhat warm coolant. The last few minutes are for cooling down. Those engines don't burn a drop of oil. Nothing even remotely in the manual about 'breaking in'. Its full send from the factory and it works.
High load on rings at idle due to CR and no throttle plate I do almost the same when I build with moly rings, 20 -50 miles in town, check for leaks, beat on it a bit and gtg, cycle 2 -3 times if iron rings.
My grandfather builds dirt track engines out of his garage for a lot of the guys running in the vintage class at the local dirt track. This is after he was building them for his own car and beating (badly) the guys that paid big money for local shops to build them only for them to blow up halfway through the race season. Needless to say for the first few races every year they are constantly accusing him of cheating and the tech guy is always making him tear the engine down there at the track for inspection. I’m not sure the specs he builds them to but he assembles them. Starts them up, let’s them run for 15-20 min slowly running it up from idle to around 3500-4000 and back again. Just before he shuts it off gives it a few good redline whacks. Takes them off the stand puts them in the car and takes them to the track for qualifying. One of his engines finishes top 3 every race (at the very least 10, usually 15 or more cars are in the class) and outside of the random rocker failure or other failure that can happen to any engine being raced (incorrect fueling, timing etc) his engines usually last the whole season. Then when torn down at the end of the season usually just get a mild refresh for security but they usually look like they could easily go another season. One of the guys there is still running one of his engines never rebuilt on his 3rd season and he’s still competitive.
Excellent. The same is for motorcycles. I know of at least 1 manufacturer who puts every single brand new bike through a full dyno run before it leaves the factory.
We do the same thing for our Tugs at work running EMD's and Caterpillar 3516's, Fresh Rebuild- Top off fluids, Start the engines idle for 5 minutes then hook the engines up to 900 RPMs (for the EMD's) and 1600 for the Cats and let her sit for 10 minutes, Then bring it back down to an idle, Then we'll cast off and actually put a load on the engine and WOT on a push test for 2 hours.
As a person who has manufactured both pistons and rings (Repco) the recommended 'run in' was loading the cylinder by using top gear at low speed and running up to medium speed. Then close the throttle (to re-oil the cylinder) and repeat 10 times. Job done!
@@jhndijkman for small engines they want you to run at peak torque, so running the engine at low speed high gear would do the same. I personally do WOT high gear pulls (keeping RPMs low) for new cars that I get granted they already have some miles but my cars never burn oil.
i fill engine hot water till holds 180 degres start then do drags up to 3 then 4 by the time i get to 11 or 12 times i am takin it till valves float or rev limiter sometimes shut the engine off slow down do it again then let get cold so gaskets set check as many bolts as possible then fine tune cars motorcycles n snowmobils tracktor whatever
Great up to date info.! The same is for motorcycle manufacturers as told to me by factory techs, engineers and race team people. In fact some motorcycle manufacturers put every bike through a dyno run before it ever leaves for a dealership. In fact old style break-ins can damage a modern engine via for example glazing the rings and cylinders. The materials used in engines today are much different than used in years gone by. Even a Toyota dealer told me there is no break-in and mine runs perfectly after 5 years.
Yeah, I'm here because I bought my first new motorcycle, and I can't imagine having to go 600 miles under 4000 rpm, and 1200 under 6000, not exceeding 50mph. My brain tells me to trust the engineers, but my gut tells me that it probably isn't worth it and I should just ride.
Way more info than most! Once again. Thank you. BUT. There is always one, or two. What impresses me most, is your honesty. "no, I haven't used 'that'" or "no I haven't tried that" INTEGRITY IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS. ALONG WITH :Hard work. Knowledge. Experiance and..... and..... and..... Thank you for sharing your experience, time, knowledge and, and, and... with us. I learn every time! G. B. U. Remember Where your gifts come from! Thank you.
Yep, If you set the clearances correct, Do the Correct honing procedure aka Torque plate honing and or even better bringing the block up to temp while honing, use the correct rings and the correct cross hatch for the rings then in my experience my engines are all sealed up in about 15-20 minutes run time and we start making dyno pulls right after that initial run in, this guy is telling the truth 100%
I've watched videos on youtube of Pakistani dudes building engines with bricks and a welding stick. All jokes aside, building an engine can be as complex as you want it to be for maximum performance and longevity. Of course all of those techniques you suggest be applied come with a cost that most enthusiasts would rather cut costs on. I do feel like machine shops are starting to make it more of a standard though and part of the natural cost of building an engine.
something we always do after an engine build, is turn the oil filter a few turns loose and crank the engine (without spark plugs in it) and als soon as oil comes out of the filter you fasten the filter while you keep cranking, this makes it more easy for the oil pump to get rid of air and you are 100% positive the oil pump is actually working. Especially on bike engines this will speed up the process of bleeding air out of the channels and the pump. This also helps a lot on yamaha's, who dont have an oil pressure sensor but an oil level sensor... when you only depend on the oil light this may end in tears. Great vid! Cheers!
I've always pre-primed the oil pump, did a first-start and made sure all pressures are good while it comes up to temp and the fans come on, shut it down, change the oil, and possibly do a retorque pass on certain fasteners... Then off to the dyno it goes. Build a base tune and flash it in, then start doing pulls and getting VE and fuel dialed in. Within 15 minutes, it's getting the BEANS 🤣 Get the tune dialed in, then fine-tune things like IAC, tip-in, and part throttle drivability... Then it comes off the rollers and onto pavement for a little tune refinement and collecting data. Do another oil change, check lash if it's a solid-roller, and start beating the snot out of it.
I would like to thank you for actually explaining for everything. I feel like my stress about my first break in ever had dropped a lot now that I know what is going on for each step. So often when trying to learn how to rebuild this 289 and 65 Mustang I have just had to hope the grammar less sentence on a forum is what I need to do. Even these manuals I have skip over so much information. Thank you.
I broke in my engine before watching this video, and I regret doing so very much. I had a tremendous amount of blow by for the first two hours of idle after first startup. The moment I started driving it and seating the rings, that blow by went mostly away, but now I get some crankcase pressure. If I had known then what I know now, I definitely would have started driving it earlier. Absolutely top-notch and invaluable information. Cheers.
Better late than never and at least you have a better idea for next time. It's hard to get everything perfect first time around when you're learning, and we're all always learning. Most important fact is that you're out there doing it, seeing what you can do better in the future, and taking it on board. If you ever feel like you know it all and have nothing left to learn, that's when you should worry 😅 - Taz.
now i have built Hundreds of motors and just ran them to see if any leaks maybe a few miles and gave it to the customer and always been lucky i guess never really had a great problem... i think as soon as you start it up and run it for a few mins it is a good one... and after a month of running it i think it is going to be a winner...
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I’m a Chevrolet technician and I have replace dozens of pistons on many engines. After each replacement I take the car for a 5-10 mile drive with a few 10-15 second WOT pulls. I’ve never had one come back with any issues. So all I can say is SEND IT!
@@mikeeagle2653 nobody said anything about breaking in a piston… when you replace a piston do you do so without changing rings? Also… where are the bearings located on your pistons dude?
@@mikeeagle2653 what does "breaking in a bearing" look like? As explained in the video, the bearings don't break in. There's a film of oil between them and the rotating part be it the crank or rods. The bearings should never touch the crank or rods because of this.
warm it up to operating temps, check for leaks, top off coolant, full send. change the oil at 100 miles and cut the filter open and inspect. No brass, keep smashing the gas.
-Clearance the bearings and rings -build it -add cheap oil -start it and run for about 10-15 mins whilst checking for leaks -drive it for about 50-100 miles with alot of sub 5000rpm wot and deceleration in gear -do this over 2-3 heat cycles -change oil with correct spec This is what I've always done without problems and on my high comp b20vtec
Yep, I break in my own engine after I rebuild it and I warm it up, check vitals and cycle from low to high rpm for five times each, check vitals and re- torque the bottom end and all external fasteners and put it on the street. No failures or serious problems other than leaky valve cover gaskets, oil filter leak couple if times but no other problems . Straight and round bores are a rings best friend and after that ,run it normally. All of my engines were big block Mopar and sportbike engines which were and are daily drivers. Good engine cleanliness, correct assembly and a good machinist are the key to good ring seal.
Maybe engines failing to break in is not that common. If someone installed a rebuilt engine in a vehicle and went out driving on city streets immediately, with all the stops, accelerations, decelerations, and idling at stop lights and stop signs, the engine probably would break in properly. The only way you could create a problem is driving at a sustained speed for a long period of time such that the rings heated up and scuffed the cylinder walls. With a cast iron engine and conventional oil, I think it would break in eventually no matter what you did as long as you did some varied speeds early in the break in cycle. Nevertheless, I would follow the recommended break in protocols if I ever installed a rebuilt engine.
@@anonymike8280 there are definitely some does and don't to break in. 1. Prime the oil pump and or pump oil through the engine 2. Do not use synthetic oils. Use "break in oil". Synthetic oils will not allow the rings to seat (found this out myself).
Stats are already out there. No car manufacturer does a ritual break-in...need more evidence? All engines come from the factory with full synthetic oil in the crankcase and had that same oil in it from the very first start...kind of blows that theory out of the water about ring seating doesn't it?
@@justanobserver530I wonder how all of the new Corvette’s ever break in their engines since they come from the factory with Mobil 1? Ah, you have succumbed to yet another myth. Engines will break in just fine with synthetic oil.
@@LTVoyager spoken from someone who's never rebuilt a single engine, so anyone who reads your comment can know you're an idiot. All of the engines today that run on synthetic....do some research before you respond with asinine comments...better yet YOU rebuild a 50s, 60s or 70s engine and break it in on synthetic oil and THEN tell me how I'm wrong, dip shit
I bought a new 2019 370Z with the VQ37VHR engine and was careful in the break-in process. I have used the recommended Nissan Ester oil, high in Molybdenum, throughout with a Fram Ultra synthetic filter, both changed every 3K miles. I did an early oil and filter change at 200 mi, 600 mi and 1800 mi. After that, I went to a normal oil change interval. For the first 1K miles I kept engine revs below 3500 and only used gentle acceleration, with varying engine speeds and loads for periods that didn't exceed 1/2 hour. I waited until the oil temp would get to 140 degrees F before taking off and keeping the revs not over 2K until the temp would get to 180 deg F. Between 1K and 2K miles I gradually increased acceleration levels and allowed engine rpm to max at 4K for brief periods. I continued to baby the engine until I got to about 5K miles. Now at 15K miles I use barely 1 oz of oil per 1K miles.
A couple of things I'll mention here. Your technique is probably similar to how the majority of people treat break-in - maybe in your case you've taken things a bit further with additional oil changes (which I'd say are a great idea). This technique isn't necessarily going to end up with terrible results, or an engine that consumes oil. The saving grace is that modern ring materials and honing techniques make it very difficult to actually make a mess of bedding the rings. That being said, in my opinion you've basically spent around 4800-4900 miles unnecessarily breaking in your engine when you could have been enjoying it instead. It's never a bad idea however to keep the rpm and load low during engine warm up though. Being a little more aggressive on the break in process also has the potential for improved ring seal which can result in improved power, not just a reduction in oil consumption - Andre
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The car has about 57K miles on it now and shows no discernable oil usage on the dipstick at the end of my 3K mile oil change intervals; I'm using the same oil, filter and warm up practices. One thing I did do is to go with a taller filter that offers about 50% more filtration area, as an attempt to reduce the slightly greater pressure drop that occurs with this particular filter because of its higher than normal filtration efficiency. My exhaust tips show minimal amounts of soot or any other kind of deposits on the insides of the pipes, indicating to me that the engine is burning cleanly. One thing I do that may be helping is that I run a mixture of Redline SI-1 complete fuel system cleaner in the ratio of ⅓ oz per gallon of gas. This is for additional cleaning and lubrication of the upper cylinder area. I did pull one of the spark plugs and dropped a borescope into the cylinder to inspect the top of the piston, which was devoid of any deposits except for a darkening of the aluminum surface. The spark plug looked good, despite the richer fuel/air mixture that I'm running. Taking off one of the throttle bodies, which I had to do to get access to the spark plugs on one of the banks, showed very little gunk downstream of the butterfly valve. I think this is a testament to the improved materials and techniques you mentioned that modern engine builders use as opposed to what I was familiar with back in the 60s and 70s. @@hpa101
On new engine builds I take the oil cap off, pull the timing belt, hook a hand drill up to the oil pump, and spin it til I see oil in the head for about 5 minutes. Then timing belt on and fire engine.
Only just come to this video after pondering about certain procedures and uncertainties I followed on my 4G63. The engine was built by a reputable tuner. You're right that, really, there's a lot of common sense for the customer to apply here. I'm not an engineer or engine builder, but I always found the 1000 mile + run-in to sound like nonsense.
Anyone wishing to understand more about the piston ring, cylinder liner and lubricant interface should read these academic papers. They may not tell you exactly how to run your particular unit in, as all unit specs will be different, but they will give you a better understanding of what is involved. These are pier reviewed by some of the worlds experts in the field of piston ring, cylinder liner coatings and lubricant specialists so they hold a lot more credence than many so called tuners word of mouth mutterings. Remember, these experts are the people contracted by, and who advise OEM's, Tier One Motorsport Organisations, and many others on how to build and use their recip units. Remember that any recip unit "running in" relies on many factors, such as ring coatings/materials, liner coatings/material, lubricant, temperature, cylinder pressure, texturing, static ring tension, bore out of roundness and others. As a thirty year veteran engine builder with countless hours of static dyno and chassis dyno running and as a researcher I can tell you that some of the greatest myths are fostered by some of the so called engine building/tuning specialists and should be taken with a pinch of salt. This subject is far more complex than you think. journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1468087413519783 journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1350650111431028 www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000055 www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261919318161 asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/IDETC-CIE/proceedings-abstract/IDETC-CIE2011/54846/401/351819 journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0954407016686249 www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X18305474 www.jstor.org/stable/44724334?seq=1 www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/921453/
I have lot of respect for OEM engineers and they are the best in what they do and study various subjects to very great detail. As oem cars have to run reliably and cost effectively. An oem bearing expert might know a lot about bearings , but he may be layman when it comes to any other aspect of the car. Reputed after market tuners might be spreading a few misinformation out there and may not know the nth polynomial equation for bearing lubrication but he knows what works with his experience of building aftermarket cars. That is the requirement of the industry. The kind of power levels they churn out if it has to be done the OEM way with OEM reliability then every build will be more expensive than a Bugatti Veyron. Even if the ordinary engine builder is to read all the links you put out there he might be stupider than he started. Each industry has its requirements , I would rather you had some respect for the after market engine builders.
Care to actually cite any of those mostly irrelevant and paywalled papers? Anyone who understands the subject knows PEER-reviewed papers are great, but most are not reproducible, and most quantitive and qualitive testing is never published when performed by OEMS. All the aftermarket gets is empirical data. Go try to sound smart somewhere else.
Oil. When I worked a John Deere dealership, a rebuilt engine would be hung a couple feet above it's oil pan and a pressure bottle would force oil thru the galleys. What you thought was sterile would put pieces of gasket, adhesive, metal and whatnot into the pan before cleaning and assembly. As a Triumph motorcycle mechanic we would run a motor around the block and change oil, run a couple miles, change oil, then maybe 100, and the oil was always showing metal dust, but they didn't have filters either. Hearing of ramrodding fresh engines for mega power, I had doubts. Many thanks to this video for showing the middle and safer road for that!!!
46:30 It's also worth noting with old American pushrod V8s, you can remove the distributor and drive the oil pump directly using an electric drill to prime the engine. There are tools made exactly for this purpose.
I don't trust the cheap Amazon ones. Junkyard 4.3 or any size small block distributor cut open works and it's made for our motors so I like them better.
Until I saw this, I thought I knew what I was doing. Thank you for the clear and thorough education. I have my own You Tube Channel and will take inspiration from you methods.
Breaking-in removes the tops of the hone peaks as the rings bed-in, and cylinder rings, cam shafts, lifters, and valve guides 'lap-in'. I've seen engines torn down with high mileage that still have significant hone marks, as the honing also provides valleys where oil lubricates long after break-in. Yes moderate loads and varying the rpm is the best approach for break-in for the first several hundred miles. Yes, an engine breaking in generates more heat from all the friction of new parts 'bedding-in'. Avoid breaking in at highway speeds on very hot days. Could over-whelm your cooling system, and your oil's ability to lubricate. With all modern engines having much tighter tolerances than older motors, it's always wisest to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for break-in. Early first oil changes are a controversy. Some see it as cheap insurance to ensure minimal oil contamination from break in. Others see it as the premature removal of the manufacturer's break-in oil, to a waste of time and money. I think changing after the first 3000-miles as not harmful, and cheap insurance. Oil doesn't break down, the additives do. OEM oil filters should be able to remove any particles that could cause wear, so there's minimal risk. As to not using synthetic oils for break-in, I believe Corvette engines come from the factory with synthetic oil, but I'm not sure if they are a synthetic break-in oil... GM has used a lot of racing R&D and experience on their premier brand so they should know what does and does not work... I think it's a mistake to put your credence on anyone's 'personal experience'. No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. 'What has been shown to work' for one builder could be different than 'what has been shown to work' for another builder, so all advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
"No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. " You are right, but Toyota for example built your 2jz for 200hp or so in a road car, not 600, 1000, 2000hp or more for circuit, drift or drag etc using aftermarket parts like your local independent builder will have done 100's if not 1000's of times (depending on the specific shop and engine). Modern engines are certainly coming from the OEM with less headroom than older ones for sure however, and the gain or salt comment is bang on noting that also applies to the OEM if you are not keeping within their specifications and parts lists... ;) - Taz.
Nice to know I've allways done it the correct manner, and most good engine builders use this technique, as I've understand. Only addition, is that when running in NiSiC ("Nikasil") coatings, you really need to be even quicker and more brutal from the get-go. Also if possible, if the engine coolant can be circulated and heated and oil can be heated, so the engine is at working temp faster, this will also aid the rings to seat to the bore in its form where its mostly going to opperate, from the get go, especially if the block is bored and honed at operating temperature.
I build race engines, have probably built over 250 in 10 years. I would really say you need to break it in for at least 250-500 miles, especially before you take it to a race. If all your doing is a street car, maybe you can get away with less. That being said you don’t wanna baby it, you want to get to about 3/4 to 7/8 max rpm sustained. You touch red line but just don’t hold it there for longer than 2-3 second. Last of all after break in, PLEASE get an oil change, plus filter AND spark plug change, fine metallic material, mostly from the rings will coat and stick to the ceramic porcelain of the spark plug and can and usually cause less than ideal spark and combustion.
I think one of the most overlooked things is the very first oil change I feel like the engine should be run for just a few miles and then get an oil change to get rid of all of the metal and other contaminants that happened to be there during the engine building process
Use a good quality oil filter, replace it immediately, as you replace the oil, after that initial break-in. It's imperative, that the filter be a fine enough mesh, that it filters particles larger than the film thickness of the oil.
Great video, methodical. Had to let mine idle for 2 minutes to check for leaks and dial in the fuel pressure regulator, top up coolant etc before I go out on the road. Next start (after lockdown) will be on the way to the dyno 5 miles away and 1hr run in as suggested! Great video, thanks!
Great info Andre. I recently bought my first new car, an 86. Never dreamed I would buy new but have spent _my entire life_ thinking about exactly how I would break in a new engine if ever I had the chance! I logged oil temp, manifold etc. from the first drive to know exactly what to do. Used most vacuum possible, little load. Revved it out fully when appropriate very early on. It hasn't used a drop of oil and a relative has had two Subarus in a row with the FA20 that have gone on schedule at the dealer due to losing litres per few thousand k's.
I just did a rebuilt on my 5.9l magnum heads and I didn't do anything on my cam & lifters Or crank and so on. When I put the Lifters back in I did put 105 part lubricant grease on them and on the camshaft and on the distributor gears and on the Rockers as well. My question is can I just get by with just dumping 5 quarts of oil and zinc all over the Rockers camshaft and down the oil galleys and let it drain down to crankshaft before I button everything up and then start it without having to Prime the oil with the distributor which I'm not looking forward to. Thank you much for your time love to video thanks for your patience and help
We'd break in 14:1 race engines for about 30 minutes. never had an issue. Of course they only had to last a month. Basically just a single heat cycle and then some brake loading cycles when back to temp.
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I have been saying the same for years. Still HUGELY controversial topic for the vast majority including so called experts and engineers. This process is very methodical and falls into the "hard break in" for most, but so many fail to understand the details involved.
FYI, it's been my experience that most engine builders are using way to much oil on piston rings. For my NASCAR and aircraft performance racing engines, I use 3 drops of oil on each ring and very thin film on the cylinder, piston skirts, and oiling pin, using rubber gloves. Then to dyno
turnin wrenches on leaf blowers for mommies garden is different than modern day high performance engines. shut the fuck up if you don't know shit and stick to garden duty
I worked at volvo in sweden building engines. And as soon as the engines come of the production line they go on dynos for about 40 minutes. During this period they are hooked upp to an external fuel/coolant/oil loop. Let it come upp to temp. Look for leaks etc. I thought this was only for quality controll. But probably they are doing that break in thing with the piston rings that you talked about because they do rev them to about 3000rpm and go upp and down abit during that period.
It might still be for quality reasons, but they simply have to bed the rings to run it up like that. You only have a small window of time to do that correctly within. Interesting insight, cheers for sharing! - Taz.
@@hpa101 yea. They talked alot about quality controll. Once in a great while we had some truly spectacular result when something came loose in the bottom end and sploded the engine in an instant XD. Better there than on the road i supose.
One of the biggest factors modern break-in is so brief vs "Old School" is lack of Leaded Fuel. Leaded fuel drastically impacted Ring bed-in during the Muscle car days. a long gentle break-in was warranted. Also very short oil change cycles were in order. Old School methods are todays myths. Now I'm off to have an argument with an older family member as to why you don't have to warm your modern car up for 10 minutes before driving it...
I have new cylinders and new gapless piston ring sets for my engine. I plan on a 2 step break in with oil from DRIVEN specifically made for break in. One batch is a 15W50 and the other is a 5W30. Which one shall I use for the first 100km and which for the next 200km before going to a synthetic oil. Btw. the camshaft are original in good condition with 100 thousand miles on them and look like new.
I found that in most cases where the flattappet camshafts dont bed-in right is because theres some that use the thicker assembly lube to lube up the whole lifter sides and all and that can become so sticky the lifters cant rotate correctly. I apply ZDDP additive with 10/w/30 in a small handheld oilcan to the lifter bodys and put the assembly lube only on the bottom of the lifter and the camshaft lobes only.I also lube the camshaft bearings and cam journals with ZDDP additive and 10w/30 motor oil as I always prime my oil pumps before start up and use a Moroso dry start eliminator pressurized oil can at start-up....
I feel better watching your video. Being a little anxious and amatuer i bought my 406 SBC n/a as a longblock and installed myself. #1 should I have used break-in oil even though Tri-Star engines recommended conventional 10w/40? (I'm fine there... engine oil is perfect) #2 I did prime the pump with a drill so I'm fine there with 70 p.s.i. #3 I TOOK IT OUT AND DID A FEW BURNOUTS, but it's a 2,850 lbs S10 pickup with a 4:10 gear so it spins super east on the street, I drove it about 15-20 minutes circling Telegraph Rd and Eureka on open headers yesterday. Fun as shit! I'm going to take it easy and cruise it varying between 2000-4000 rpm in 3rd gear and let the rings seat some more...
after a rebuilt and right before the very first engine start , I always use pressure remote oil feed , using the oil pressure port. I usually inject 2.5 ltr of oil , this will prime all the engine , oil pump included. on tha first start the engine will have instant pressure. the tool I used is an DIY one from an water filter. is equipped with manometer , air pressure regulator , air trigger controll and for oil fittings I use the ones for a oil pressure test kit.
Yes, that's a valid option and one that many use. If you run a dry sump pump then you're even better off as you can remove the belt and drive the pump manually to achieve oil pressure prior to startup. The reality for most people though is that removing the spark plugs and cranking the engine on the starter is absolutely fine and you won't do any damage provided the engine was properly lubricated during assembly.
@@hpa101 This doesnt apply to rebuilds or engines modified for high performance ce use but production engines are tested in cells for oil pressure, ignition timing, cam sensors if any, vacuum etc. All drilled oil passages are washed with high pressure. Plus on aluminum blocks and heads oil passages are gun drilled using a high pressure coolant. If the coolant flow is interrupted at all during the gun drill process the gun drill will seize in the hole. These holes can be drilled 300mm deep or more in around 20 seconds. The odds of machining debris inside a production engine is extremely low today. In the past with cast iron engines that's a different story.
On the idling note. There is a diesel mechanic on YT that found that the trucks that spend the most time idling have polished cylinders allowing lots of blow by. He had a costumer bring in a very clean low mileage dump truck that was consuming huge amounts of oil. The guy he had bough it from said it was is good condition because it sat idling (more than usual apparently) while waiting for loads to hual. Basically the outside of the truck was great, but the engine had to be rebuild.
Yes, that's very true. There still seems to be misconception in the diesel world that idling is acceptable and even desirable which has never been true. Just don't beat on it or put significant load on it until your oil and coolant are up to temperature
Only break in I've ever done was a short run at about 2500rpm, not idle, when using solid lifters, hydraulic non-roller, and that's only because it's recommended for lifter seating on the camshaft... roller lifters don't have such a recommendation... outside that, I only changed oil after about 300-500 miles, then ran the engine as I desired......
Nothing more stressful than a new cam break-in on an all new setup motor back in the carby days. Better hope your jetting/valve/spring guesses were close enough for you to dial in 6 different screws while trying to constantly vary RPM
I have very little knowledge mechanically and this is exactly what I did breaking in a new motorbike I brought in 2015. Read that sitting at the same rpm was the worst so used a “hard break in” method used on race dirt bikes. Used varying loads with acceleration and de- acceleration over a range of gears and rmps progressively increasing the throttle. Not practical to do on the road out of the shop as your rolling on and off the throttle but I did this for the sole reason of maximum compression by seating the rings to the cylinder bore wall.
Nikasil has been around since the 1960's, Mahle developed it for Porsche. Only recommendation I've ever seen was from Kawasaki motocross bilks, use 400 grit wetordry.
when built mine the rebuild company (PAI) told me to load the engine straight away. when i asked them how they told me to use a dyno and break (well i dont have that) so they suggested hooking another car or large trailer up and dragging it under heavy throttle for a couple miles... not sure if 'seating rings' really matters but i borrowed a friends trailer with a loader on it and drove around with that when i pulled it out of the garage for hte first time
well that was a long watch but very good info.. obviously a lot of experience with fresh motors.. So much bad info on the web about this subject and nice to hit one that pretty much knocks it out of the park for accuracy.. A couple side notes on "flat tappet" cams... "flat" is relative, lifters are actually "convex" ground so refacing is a process that is really "iffy".. buy new.. Cam is also bathed in a lot of "splash" from crankshaft and drain down from engine valley.. (this is in fact a problem on the new "Hemi" motors from Mopar.. cams are running too dry and self destructing... Is the main reason for the 2000-3000 RPM process.. get oil up there... "most" racing oils are high in ZDDP additive package but lack detergent packages.. I like them for break in before going synthetics... You do know that the "authorities" will be here and then bring up Cr and DLC coatings.. blah blah blah... more things change, the more it stays the same... find info specific for your build..
I went to school with a kid from the McMillen racing family. He told my autoshop teacher that they hard break in all their engines for about 15-20 minutes.
Excellent and thorough explanation of a process with tons of hearsay and misconception floating around out there. Your method is pretty much my method, and it has served very well for both an Alusil bore Porsche 944 engine I did (with only a homebrew DIY cylinder deglazing/re-lapping process to boot...Alusil can be super finnicky with surface prep for new rings), and a more conventional Honda B20Z2, both of which broke in perfectly with no smoke or oil consumption. I have a Honda D15B VTEC to break in tomorrow, actually, and a Hyundai Delta V6 engine in a couple of weeks that has reground cams, so also put me at ease on how to balance cam versus ring break in.
I've always wondered about full synthetic oil and engine break in. On quite a few of its cars, GM recommends Mobil 1 full synthetic. Do we think that GM is using mineral oil for it's initial fill? Or, is GM installing mineral oil and then running the engines on a break-in dyno before, then removing and refilling with M1 before installing the engine's in a vehicle? Not just GM - GT 500's require synthetic and I think also Mustang GT's with the Coyote engine. What do you think?
If you disagree with any of this, you need to go back and think again. Only components to bed in are rings to bore, cam to follower and some times oil pump drives. If you have a radical cam profile lifting over 15 thou/deg you need 4000 rpm the moment it starts. Only way to run that type of engine in, is on a engine dyno, I've tryed on a chassis dyno, over the past 30 or so years with mixed results.
i was agreeing right up to 9 mins or so , ive seen engines with 200k on them that still have the original hone pattern on the bore , so where does the wears off relatively quickly part start.
Hi Tom, I think perhaps the terminology being used can be a bit of a red herring with what predominantly occurs during that early period of unit running. Like I have said in a previous comment it is a very complex area. The way that most people look at running in is a one method catches all. Different materials, lubricants, temperatures, pressures, etc, all play a part in how you go about running an engine in. An analogy here is, take the engine as a meal and the procedure as an oven. .........Hey mate, how do I run in my "roast lamb and spuds"....common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins". Hey mate how do I run in my "egg chips and beans"...common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins". Hey mate how do I run in my "apple pie and custard"...common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins". Each engine is different, especially hand built engines, and a running in procedure for them needs a lot of consideration. But reputable OEM's spend a lot of time and money with their Tribologists, Metallurgists and Lubricant Specialists to work out the best running in procedure for their units, so my advise, for what it is worth, would be to stick to what they say. If after that, all goes teats up, that's what warranties are for, and believe me OEM's don't like paying for mistakes after acting on advise from Jim Chipchop Racing's running in method. I can maybe answer your question a bit better if you are interested but it may get a bit boring and technical.
@@mdf113 yes i'm always interested ..its always good to learn new things .. i've built many many engines . Granted not to the performance levels here .. but I don't expect to see my work back for many many miles . T
Hi again Tom, Here we go, it may get boring but I will try to keep it short, don't forget this is a potted overview of a complicated subject with many aspects simplified. First off lets set some pentameters. We will consider our hypothetical engine uses a FeMo (Ferro Molybdenum) liner/bore surface (common in most iron block engines without liners), a CI (Cast Iron) ring and using a PAO or Ester base lubricant with no anti friction or anti wear additives. Look at the materials first. We need to look at the NANO scale topography of the material, so 1E-9m.....pretty small. The material surface under a high power microscope looks like the Himalayas with peaks and troughs covering the surface, and this is on the top of the texturing ridges (honing ). These peaks are know as "asperities" and have plastic and elastic properties. Now for the lubricant regimes, these are, "boundary" regime, where the asperities often come into contact with each other, "hydrodynamic" regime where a film of lubricant separates the two sliding materials and a "mixed" regime where some touch and some don't, we will ignore EHL for simplicity. Now, the asperities when prior to initial start up are predominantly in the elastic state and parts of them during the initial running will "shake down" and become plastic and this will reduce the height of the asperity, which is often confused as wear ,when in fact it is simply material deformation. Think of squashing chewing gum, when you release it some of it springs back but some stays flattened, this happens on those initial fired cycles, which have far greater pressure in the cylinder than that which occurs during manufacture. The "shakedown" period to compress the plastic properties of the asperities is relative to all of the conditions I have mentioned in the past. Example a TiN coated ring on a NiSiC liner surface may take longer to "shakedown" than say a CI ring on a FeMo liner..... this is why running in is not a one size fits all, my analogy of the meal and oven in my previous post holds. All of the little valleys between the asperities are what en-train the lubricant in an effort to prevent asperity contact. When the piston approaches TDC it reaches the reversal point and at this point and for a short period after this, where the pressure of the ring on the liner is at its highest, due to the pressure from the compressed and ignited gasses, it will possibly be in the boundary lubrication region where the oil film is at its thinnest and asperity contact often occurs. This is where bore wear is most prominent and is sometimes seen as a very shiny area at the top of the bore. This also happens at the BDC changeover area, but to a lesser extent due to a much lower contact pressure of the ring to the liner. Remember the surface texturing is often at micro scale and we are in nano scale on top of the texture ridges which also contain a small amount of lubricant. However as the piston recedes down the liner, ignoring piston rock as that can complicate things, be it firing or inducting, a film of lubricant that was sprayed onto the liner via jets or by windage forms a barrier that separates the liner asperities from the ring asperities and the system is now in the hydrodynamic regime of lubrication where no, or very little, if any, asperity contact occurs. This is why when a correctly, and well lubricated unit with correctly sized components, (ring gap, piston bore clearances, ring grove dimensions, correct thrust angles etc), will suffer only pico scale liner upper, mid and lower stroke wear, if at all any, (but not in the changeover areas) and appears, and often is, in good condition because simply put, the piston ring and piston are floating on a nano scale thickness film of oil separating them from the liner as the pressure in the cylinder dissipates. If you are getting even a small amount of mid stroke bore wear, (other than bad thrust fitment), you have got something seriously wrong. We haven't got to the lubricant side of things yet, and that's another thing to throw into the mix.....!!! This is one of the many reasons why thermal properties of the liner, ring, piston etc, must be considered when clearancing is done. A low thermal expansion piston fitted to a high radial expansion block/liner can promote blowby, lubricant consumption, piston slap and low power. On the other hand a high expanding piston on a low expanding block/liner can create mixed or even boundary conditions and the piston may seize. Remember this is a very simplified explanation and if anyone else wants to have a crack at it in half a dozen paragraphs, feel free.
i built a 1994 GSR-B18C1 turbo with 16 PSI boost WITH no break-in just ran it no break-in on the new crower cams or crower valve train from Bruce Crower here in san diego, now this 1993 Honda Civic is crazy fast never lost a race in san diego yet, has ASAB Steel insert removeable insert cylinder liners 81MM i can pull them out and replace them in hours... and honda 2000 high vol low presser oil pump.. and adjustable skunk 2 cam gears with 60 K coil..and a stand alone ECM . no porting of heads at all. dyno lost trackion at 500 Horsepower which i never could understand why they could not strap it down tight...
All engine oils still contain ZDDP. The limit is 800ppm for both Zinc and Phosphorus, as part of the SN spec. Personal opinion to follow: I'm convinced that there are metallurgical issues causing American flat tappet cams going flat. As this never seems to be an issue with classic Japanese flat tappet eninges.
The current specification for maximum zinc levels is much lower than what we saw 20-30 years ago and as a result we don't see the same level of protection. This is why there is now a market for ZDTP additives or special break in oils with a high ZDTP level.
When ever I hear some of this stuff, I always think back to a few documentaries I watched in the past where they toured an automotive/motorcycle plant. I believe it was Kawasaki or Honda motorcycles as well as Honda and Ford performance cars. What was their break in? Turn the vehicle on, rev it a couple times to get the temp needle to move, then give it a few fat rips before strapping it to a dyno and doing a full pull. I think I can trust Honda and their methods considering they are some of the most reliable cars ever.
A little suggestion/advice regarding priming: it would make a lot of sense to use a pressurized oil priming tool. That way pressure would be there basically immediately. The engine won’t show the difference on the first 50k kilometers, but the last ones!
it sounds like rotaries may need the break in due to all the different seals and whatnot that they have relative to a piston engine. the vargas brothers seem to think so although im not sure how well acquainted with the science they are and that could likely be wrong.
ZDDP was reduced because of effects on catalytic converters and as oils became better with lubrication on their own reducing wear, ZDDP became less needed. It also requires higher heat and pressure to actually work which with modern oils is reduced unless high power output is achieved. Racing oils still use high levels as well as gear oils, but Boron and other additives are actually better but more expensive. Engine assembly lube is another myth. Use the intended run in oil, prime components before hand and that's it. Assembly lube is only used when you build an engine that may be sitting around for a long time, but even then you can hand prime/turn an engine. Heat cycling is required for certain head gaskets/studs/valves for re-tensioning.
very weird 1st of april video... everything seems sound and true haha would you check head studs torque after some heat cycles on high boost racing engine?
No jokes here! Yes it's not uncommon to re-torque the head after a heat cycle. This is less critical with MLS gaskets than the older composite gaskets but we still did this with our high boost drag engines.
Thank you for these awesome videos. Super informative and good info. Assuming apex seals = compression rings, Do you use the same procedure for a rotary engine break in?
I don't build rotary engines so I can't advise you from experience. There isn't a hone pattern as such on a rotor housing but I would still expect the apex seals and side seals to seat or bed over the first hour or so of operation. If in doubt then I'd consult a rotary engine specialist.
I have a theory about oil usage on Honda engines. I've done a lot of work on Honda B and K series engines over the years and some will use maybe 1 litre of oil per 1000 miles and some won't use a drop. Both can be used the same, on the same oil and have similar mileage. Both can make similar power. Both types are really common. My theory is that the ones that use oil, followed the manufacturer break in period of however many thousands of miles, and the ones that don't use any were beasted from day one. I can't prove it but it makes sense. It's almost always ring failure when they start smoking too, usually gummed up oil rings.
Another serious question here although it does not concern me personally. If you are breaking in a turbocharged engine, do you run it with a mineral (dino) oil to break it in? My thought is, for the static break in, yes. Over the road, no. What does the Academy teach?
@@Boz1211111 With a new vehicle, fresh out of the dealership, undoubtedly true. With a rebuilt engine, I am not sure. I am never going to actually rebuild a contemporary engine. I am just collecting information. And trying to destroying misinformation. There are different mechanical theories, but with break in the theories can be tested by tearing down engines and doing precise measurements. Especially, with laser scanning it would be very easy to determine how well the different parts lapped in and whether one method or another did any damage however infinitesimal to the turbo. I seriously doubt that doing the static phase of the break in on a turbo engine with mineral or Group III synthetic would harm either the turbo or any of the sensors. Another issue though is that for some weights of oil, only synthetic is available. Of course, there are synthetic break in oils available. If I had just spent thousands to buy a replacement engine whole or whatever you have to spend to rebuild it yourself, I think I would pay for synthetic break in oil. With a cast iron block engine, life is a little simpler.
Yes we use good quality mineral oil. If you plan to switch to synthetic we'd still run mineral up to around 200kms of engine use even though the majority of the break-in process is complete by 20-50kms. Note that's not to say you do the first oil change at 200kms... It is tricky as there are many opinions on this and even speciality break-in oils, so note we only advise what we have had proven success with rather than stating what we are doing is the ONLY way it can be done. This is covered in more detail in the Engine Building Fundamentals course (direct module link below in case you own it), and also on the HPA members forums. There is a short thread here amongst others: www.hpacademy.com/forum/general-engine-building-discussion/show/recommended-break-in-oil Hope that is of some help - Taz. www.hpacademy.com/dashboard/courses/engine-building-fundamentals/engine-break-in-engine-break-in?
I'm confused, should I use a break-in oil for my engine that uses AAC in direct contact on buckets? or minéral oil is ok ? :) sorry i'm french and my english comprehension is perfectible
So after the first ~100km of driving you do an oil change (to get rid of debris). Do you refill with a full synthetic at that point or refill with break-in oil again ? then move over to full synthetic at the next oil change ?
I break in on average almost one more a week. Roller cam, so start and very rpm from 1500 to 2500 to maybe 140 degrees. Shut down, check for leaks and fluids. Then I serialize the motor before it gets really hot. Then I run it from 2000 to 4000 rpm until it gets to 170. Calibrate the computer temp sensor and then it WOT. The motor will start to make more vacuum in the first 15 to 20 min. Run motors 30 to 90 minutes dialing it in before its customer ready. They can run it as they please once it's got some heat in it.
I had a question - I started an engine rebuild and life got in the way (had to do a job move, etc), the engine has been on my engine stand for a couple years now. I used a permatex assembly lube back then, should I disassemble the engine again now and start over with the crank, etc to re apply the assembly lube??? I haven't put the rods and pistons in yet. Just the cam and crank and the crank is torqued down. Engine is old school Ford 352 FE bored .030 over. Going into a 1967 F100. Not a race truck but I don't want to hurt it at start up either. Thanks, love the videos. Clay
IMO, at least, do to mandatory oil changes; the fist one within the first few minutes of startup and the second one about 20 minutes in. Will remove lots of gunk, assembly lube, fine metal particles from the breakin.
I remember many years ago old guy (actually quite a well known engineer) reckoned if he had issues with rings not seating, bit of Brasso down the carb, reckoned it worked a treat and never experienced any negative results. Just telling the story. Someone else used to handhone with 600 wet&dry. He actually was a big name in the aftermarket performance industry. Tried it myself once, worked well. Have used garden sprayer with a barb fitting at the end of the hose and just screwed it into the oil pressure switch location. Turn it over by hand, have seen forty pounds, certainly pretty lubed.
![Piston Ring Gaps | How They DESTROY Your Engine [GOLD WEBINAR]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/y3nqpZF9wa0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Piston Ring Gaps | How They DESTROY Your Engine [GOLD WEBINAR]](/img/tr.png)
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Welcome
1:25 - Common myths
7:35 - What are we trying to achieve?
16:45 - Considerations
19:35 - Camshaft break in issues
25:05 - ZDDP
27:30 - HPA break in process
39:00 - Questions
Wow what a world we live in. Being able to get a professional engine builder to give us a "how to " on fresh engine break-in with a few taps on your phone is priceless. Thank you so much Andre, much appreciated.
It wasn't priceless
Was to me.
@@jooba67 AYE.....but I spent thousands for those classes over the years. They are excellent.
@@bobbywalter5320 well how much did this guy charge you to watch his video? You may have fell victim to a scammer!
@@tkostang I have a membership at hpa. There is a price... A lot of stuff that is free now was behind a paywall. It's well done
Newzealander for beginners:
"Beer ring" = A mechanical element used allow rotational movement and reduce friction between two parts.
"Heed" = The upper part of an engine, bolted to the engine block. Usually houses the combustion chambers.
"In gin" = The mechanical powerplant of a vehicle.
"Beed in" = To wear mechanical parts together accurately through use.
:D
No you got it all wrong mate. A Beer Ring is the mark your Fosters can leaves on the coffee table from sweat because you couldn't bring yourself to take another sip of the nasty stuff. Heed - that's what my wife gives me. In gin - that's when you drank so much gin you can't walk straight. Beed in - That's what it's called when people catch beads at a Mardi Gras parade.
LOL. Thanx for the dictionary!
@@DivergentDroid Correct... 👌
🍻
you forgot “manurel oil” :)
I thought the beer ring was the mark that the Foster's leaves on your upper lip when you are guzzling it from a big mug🍺
I work at an OEM'er building big diesel engines. Every engine is tested for 15 minutes. 5 minutes of heating up, making sure all pressures are correct, nothing is leaking etc. Then after 5 minutes its full throttle all the way. Cold oil, somewhat warm coolant. The last few minutes are for cooling down. Those engines don't burn a drop of oil. Nothing even remotely in the manual about 'breaking in'.
Its full send from the factory and it works.
High load on rings at idle due to CR and no throttle plate
I do almost the same when I build with moly rings, 20 -50 miles in town, check for leaks, beat on it a bit and gtg, cycle 2 -3 times if iron rings.
My grandfather builds dirt track engines out of his garage for a lot of the guys running in the vintage class at the local dirt track. This is after he was building them for his own car and beating (badly) the guys that paid big money for local shops to build them only for them to blow up halfway through the race season. Needless to say for the first few races every year they are constantly accusing him of cheating and the tech guy is always making him tear the engine down there at the track for inspection.
I’m not sure the specs he builds them to but he assembles them. Starts them up, let’s them run for 15-20 min slowly running it up from idle to around 3500-4000 and back again. Just before he shuts it off gives it a few good redline whacks. Takes them off the stand puts them in the car and takes them to the track for qualifying.
One of his engines finishes top 3 every race (at the very least 10, usually 15 or more cars are in the class) and outside of the random rocker failure or other failure that can happen to any engine being raced (incorrect fueling, timing etc) his engines usually last the whole season. Then when torn down at the end of the season usually just get a mild refresh for security but they usually look like they could easily go another season. One of the guys there is still running one of his engines never rebuilt on his 3rd season and he’s still competitive.
Excellent.
The same is for motorcycles. I know of at least 1 manufacturer who puts every single brand new bike through a full dyno run before it leaves the factory.
We do the same thing for our Tugs at work running EMD's and Caterpillar 3516's, Fresh Rebuild- Top off fluids, Start the engines idle for 5 minutes then hook the engines up to 900 RPMs (for the EMD's) and 1600 for the Cats and let her sit for 10 minutes, Then bring it back down to an idle, Then we'll cast off and actually put a load on the engine and WOT on a push test for 2 hours.
@@human1513 yes, mv agusta !
Reliable, accurate, information!
why that thumbnail? why???
As a person who has manufactured both pistons and rings (Repco) the recommended 'run in' was loading the cylinder by using top gear at low speed and running up to medium speed. Then close the throttle (to re-oil the cylinder) and repeat 10 times. Job done!
This is exactly what I was taught by a tech school teacher. Have done this every time, no failures so far.
Top gear may lug the engine. Depends on the speeds you are talking about.
@@jhndijkman that's what I was thinking. Mid gear mid load seems better. Lugging is bad for all gas engines.
@@jhndijkman for small engines they want you to run at peak torque, so running the engine at low speed high gear would do the same. I personally do WOT high gear pulls (keeping RPMs low) for new cars that I get granted they already have some miles but my cars never burn oil.
i fill engine hot water till holds 180 degres start then do drags up to 3 then 4 by the time i get to 11 or 12 times i am takin it till valves float or rev limiter sometimes shut the engine off slow down do it again then let get cold so gaskets set check as many bolts as possible then fine tune cars motorcycles n snowmobils tracktor whatever
Great up to date info.!
The same is for motorcycle manufacturers as told to me by factory techs, engineers and race team people.
In fact some motorcycle manufacturers put every bike through a dyno run before it ever leaves for a dealership.
In fact old style break-ins can damage a modern engine via for example glazing the rings and cylinders.
The materials used in engines today are much different than used in years gone by.
Even a Toyota dealer told me there is no break-in and mine runs perfectly after 5 years.
Yeah, I'm here because I bought my first new motorcycle, and I can't imagine having to go 600 miles under 4000 rpm, and 1200 under 6000, not exceeding 50mph. My brain tells me to trust the engineers, but my gut tells me that it probably isn't worth it and I should just ride.
Way more info than most! Once again.
Thank you.
BUT. There is always one, or two.
What impresses me most, is your honesty. "no, I haven't used 'that'" or "no I haven't tried that"
INTEGRITY IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS.
ALONG WITH :Hard work. Knowledge. Experiance and..... and..... and.....
Thank you for sharing your experience, time, knowledge and, and, and... with us.
I learn every time! G. B. U.
Remember Where your gifts come from!
Thank you.
Thanks mate! Appreciate the support!
Yep, If you set the clearances correct, Do the Correct honing procedure aka Torque plate honing and or even better bringing the block up to temp while honing, use the correct rings and the correct cross hatch for the rings then in my experience my engines are all sealed up in about 15-20 minutes run time and we start making dyno pulls right after that initial run in, this guy is telling the truth 100%
I've watched videos on youtube of Pakistani dudes building engines with bricks and a welding stick.
All jokes aside, building an engine can be as complex as you want it to be for maximum performance and longevity. Of course all of those techniques you suggest be applied come with a cost that most enthusiasts would rather cut costs on.
I do feel like machine shops are starting to make it more of a standard though and part of the natural cost of building an engine.
something we always do after an engine build, is turn the oil filter a few turns loose and crank the engine (without spark plugs in it) and als soon as oil comes out of the filter you fasten the filter while you keep cranking, this makes it more easy for the oil pump to get rid of air and you are 100% positive the oil pump is actually working.
Especially on bike engines this will speed up the process of bleeding air out of the channels and the pump.
This also helps a lot on yamaha's, who dont have an oil pressure sensor but an oil level sensor... when you only depend on the oil light this may end in tears.
Great vid! Cheers!
Pre fill the oil filter!
Yes!
I've always pre-primed the oil pump, did a first-start and made sure all pressures are good while it comes up to temp and the fans come on, shut it down, change the oil, and possibly do a retorque pass on certain fasteners... Then off to the dyno it goes. Build a base tune and flash it in, then start doing pulls and getting VE and fuel dialed in. Within 15 minutes, it's getting the BEANS 🤣 Get the tune dialed in, then fine-tune things like IAC, tip-in, and part throttle drivability... Then it comes off the rollers and onto pavement for a little tune refinement and collecting data. Do another oil change, check lash if it's a solid-roller, and start beating the snot out of it.
yeah +1 for pre priming oil pump
I would like to thank you for actually explaining for everything. I feel like my stress about my first break in ever had dropped a lot now that I know what is going on for each step. So often when trying to learn how to rebuild this 289 and 65 Mustang I have just had to hope the grammar less sentence on a forum is what I need to do. Even these manuals I have skip over so much information. Thank you.
I broke in my engine before watching this video, and I regret doing so very much. I had a tremendous amount of blow by for the first two hours of idle after first startup. The moment I started driving it and seating the rings, that blow by went mostly away, but now I get some crankcase pressure. If I had known then what I know now, I definitely would have started driving it earlier. Absolutely top-notch and invaluable information. Cheers.
Better late than never and at least you have a better idea for next time. It's hard to get everything perfect first time around when you're learning, and we're all always learning. Most important fact is that you're out there doing it, seeing what you can do better in the future, and taking it on board.
If you ever feel like you know it all and have nothing left to learn, that's when you should worry 😅 - Taz.
now i have built Hundreds of motors and just ran them to see if any leaks maybe a few miles and gave it to the customer and always been lucky i guess never really had a great problem... i think as soon as you start it up and run it for a few mins it is a good one... and after a month of running it i think it is going to be a winner...
This came out just in time for my build. Thanks for putting great info out there. Especially from a true engine builder and not just some UA-camr.
Good video we appreciate your advice and time
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I’m a Chevrolet technician and I have replace dozens of pistons on many engines. After each replacement I take the car for a 5-10 mile drive with a few 10-15 second WOT pulls. I’ve never had one come back with any issues. So all I can say is SEND IT!
@@mikeeagle2653 nobody said anything about breaking in a piston… when you replace a piston do you do so without changing rings? Also… where are the bearings located on your pistons dude?
@@mikeeagle2653 what does "breaking in a bearing" look like? As explained in the video, the bearings don't break in. There's a film of oil between them and the rotating part be it the crank or rods. The bearings should never touch the crank or rods because of this.
@@mikeeagle2653 please don't break in any bearings and never tell this nonsense again!
Useless Chevrolet technician. What gives you the right to wot someone's car smh
warm it up to operating temps, check for leaks, top off coolant, full send. change the oil at 100 miles and cut the filter open and inspect. No brass, keep smashing the gas.
-Clearance the bearings and rings
-build it
-add cheap oil
-start it and run for about 10-15 mins whilst checking for leaks
-drive it for about 50-100 miles with alot of sub 5000rpm wot and deceleration in gear
-do this over 2-3 heat cycles
-change oil with correct spec
This is what I've always done without problems and on my high comp b20vtec
I break in very similar. Although i beat on it much sooner than that. Heavy emphasis on the decel in gear!
Without knowing a method this is exactly how I already began breaking in my new 406sbc
Thanks for this. I've been searching for a detailed explanation on this topic for weeks. Beautifully explained
Glad it was helpful and thanks for the support ☺️
Yep, I break in my own engine after I rebuild it and I warm it up, check vitals and cycle from low to high rpm for five times each, check vitals and re- torque the bottom end and all external fasteners and put it on the street. No failures or serious problems other than leaky valve cover gaskets, oil filter leak couple if times but no other problems . Straight and round bores are a rings best friend and after that ,run it normally. All of my engines were big block Mopar and sportbike engines which were and are daily drivers. Good engine cleanliness, correct assembly and a good machinist are the key to good ring seal.
It would be interesting to gather stats on repair costs and lifetimes of cars that were broken in vs. ones that were not - for example, demos.
Maybe engines failing to break in is not that common. If someone installed a rebuilt engine in a vehicle and went out driving on city streets immediately, with all the stops, accelerations, decelerations, and idling at stop lights and stop signs, the engine probably would break in properly.
The only way you could create a problem is driving at a sustained speed for a long period of time such that the rings heated up and scuffed the cylinder walls. With a cast iron engine and conventional oil, I think it would break in eventually no matter what you did as long as you did some varied speeds early in the break in cycle.
Nevertheless, I would follow the recommended break in protocols if I ever installed a rebuilt engine.
@@anonymike8280 there are definitely some does and don't to break in. 1. Prime the oil pump and or pump oil through the engine 2. Do not use synthetic oils. Use "break in oil". Synthetic oils will not allow the rings to seat (found this out myself).
Stats are already out there. No car manufacturer does a ritual break-in...need more evidence? All engines come from the factory with full synthetic oil in the crankcase and had that same oil in it from the very first start...kind of blows that theory out of the water about ring seating doesn't it?
@@justanobserver530I wonder how all of the new Corvette’s ever break in their engines since they come from the factory with Mobil 1? Ah, you have succumbed to yet another myth. Engines will break in just fine with synthetic oil.
@@LTVoyager spoken from someone who's never rebuilt a single engine, so anyone who reads your comment can know you're an idiot. All of the engines today that run on synthetic....do some research before you respond with asinine comments...better yet YOU rebuild a 50s, 60s or 70s engine and break it in on synthetic oil and THEN tell me how I'm wrong, dip shit
I bought a new 2019 370Z with the VQ37VHR engine and was careful in the break-in process. I have used the recommended Nissan Ester oil, high in Molybdenum, throughout with a Fram Ultra synthetic filter, both changed every 3K miles. I did an early oil and filter change at 200 mi, 600 mi and 1800 mi. After that, I went to a normal oil change interval. For the first 1K miles I kept engine revs below 3500 and only used gentle acceleration, with varying engine speeds and loads for periods that didn't exceed 1/2 hour. I waited until the oil temp would get to 140 degrees F before taking off and keeping the revs not over 2K until the temp would get to 180 deg F. Between 1K and 2K miles I gradually increased acceleration levels and allowed engine rpm to max at 4K for brief periods. I continued to baby the engine until I got to about 5K miles. Now at 15K miles I use barely 1 oz of oil per 1K miles.
A couple of things I'll mention here. Your technique is probably similar to how the majority of people treat break-in - maybe in your case you've taken things a bit further with additional oil changes (which I'd say are a great idea). This technique isn't necessarily going to end up with terrible results, or an engine that consumes oil. The saving grace is that modern ring materials and honing techniques make it very difficult to actually make a mess of bedding the rings. That being said, in my opinion you've basically spent around 4800-4900 miles unnecessarily breaking in your engine when you could have been enjoying it instead. It's never a bad idea however to keep the rpm and load low during engine warm up though. Being a little more aggressive on the break in process also has the potential for improved ring seal which can result in improved power, not just a reduction in oil consumption - Andre
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
The car has about 57K miles on it now and shows no discernable oil usage on the dipstick at the end of my 3K mile oil change intervals; I'm using the same oil, filter and warm up practices. One thing I did do is to go with a taller filter that offers about 50% more filtration area, as an attempt to reduce the slightly greater pressure drop that occurs with this particular filter because of its higher than normal filtration efficiency.
My exhaust tips show minimal amounts of soot or any other kind of deposits on the insides of the pipes, indicating to me that the engine is burning cleanly. One thing I do that may be helping is that I run a mixture of Redline SI-1 complete fuel system cleaner in the ratio of ⅓ oz per gallon of gas. This is for additional cleaning and lubrication of the upper cylinder area. I did pull one of the spark plugs and dropped a borescope into the cylinder to inspect the top of the piston, which was devoid of any deposits except for a darkening of the aluminum surface. The spark plug looked good, despite the richer fuel/air mixture that I'm running. Taking off one of the throttle bodies, which I had to do to get access to the spark plugs on one of the banks, showed very little gunk downstream of the butterfly valve.
I think this is a testament to the improved materials and techniques you mentioned that modern engine builders use as opposed to what I was familiar with back in the 60s and 70s. @@hpa101
On new engine builds I take the oil cap off, pull the timing belt, hook a hand drill up to the oil pump, and spin it til I see oil in the head for about 5 minutes. Then timing belt on and fire engine.
Only just come to this video after pondering about certain procedures and uncertainties I followed on my 4G63. The engine was built by a reputable tuner. You're right that, really, there's a lot of common sense for the customer to apply here. I'm not an engineer or engine builder, but I always found the 1000 mile + run-in to sound like nonsense.
Anyone wishing to understand more about the piston ring, cylinder liner and lubricant interface should read these academic papers. They may not tell you exactly how to run your particular unit in, as all unit specs will be different, but they will give you a better understanding of what is involved. These are pier reviewed by some of the worlds experts in the field of piston ring, cylinder liner coatings and lubricant specialists so they hold a lot more credence than many so called tuners word of mouth mutterings. Remember, these experts are the people contracted by, and who advise OEM's, Tier One Motorsport Organisations, and many others on how to build and use their recip units. Remember that any recip unit "running in" relies on many factors, such as ring coatings/materials, liner coatings/material, lubricant, temperature, cylinder pressure, texturing, static ring tension, bore out of roundness and others. As a thirty year veteran engine builder with countless hours of static dyno and chassis dyno running and as a researcher I can tell you that some of the greatest myths are fostered by some of the so called engine building/tuning specialists and should be taken with a pinch of salt. This subject is far more complex than you think.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1468087413519783
journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1350650111431028
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000055
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261919318161
asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/IDETC-CIE/proceedings-abstract/IDETC-CIE2011/54846/401/351819
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0954407016686249
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X18305474
www.jstor.org/stable/44724334?seq=1
www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/921453/
I have lot of respect for OEM engineers and they are the best in what they do and study various subjects to very great detail. As oem cars have to run reliably and cost effectively. An oem bearing expert might know a lot about bearings , but he may be layman when it comes to any other aspect of the car. Reputed after market tuners might be spreading a few misinformation out there and may not know the nth polynomial equation for bearing lubrication but he knows what works with his experience of building aftermarket cars. That is the requirement of the industry. The kind of power levels they churn out if it has to be done the OEM way with OEM reliability then every build will be more expensive than a Bugatti Veyron. Even if the ordinary engine builder is to read all the links you put out there he might be stupider than he started. Each industry has its requirements , I would rather you had some respect for the after market engine builders.
Thank for the references.
So what parts of this video do you agree and or disagree with?
Care to actually cite any of those mostly irrelevant and paywalled papers? Anyone who understands the subject knows PEER-reviewed papers are great, but most are not reproducible, and most quantitive and qualitive testing is never published when performed by OEMS. All the aftermarket gets is empirical data. Go try to sound smart somewhere else.
awesome video, I just wished the people asking the questions watched it too
Oil.
When I worked a John Deere dealership, a rebuilt engine would be hung a couple feet above it's oil pan and a pressure bottle would force oil thru the galleys. What you thought was sterile would put pieces of gasket, adhesive, metal and whatnot into the pan before cleaning and assembly.
As a Triumph motorcycle mechanic we would run a motor around the block and change oil, run a couple miles, change oil, then maybe 100, and the oil was always showing metal dust, but they didn't have filters either.
Hearing of ramrodding fresh engines for mega power, I had doubts. Many thanks to this video for showing the middle and safer road for that!!!
I remember a friend telling me he would lucky if he could get the guy to take it easy for a lap .That was in the late 80,s on a bike
Vlavoline VR-1 is very high in ZDDP and is a mineral oil! my VR6 loved it for 10k miles.
46:30 It's also worth noting with old American pushrod V8s, you can remove the distributor and drive the oil pump directly using an electric drill to prime the engine. There are tools made exactly for this purpose.
I don't trust the cheap Amazon ones. Junkyard 4.3 or any size small block distributor cut open works and it's made for our motors so I like them better.
@@406MenaceRacecar I bought a proper tool from Jegs for my Windsor. It's made by Melling Engine Parts.
Andre is the GOAT tons of helpful info 👌
That's his goal! Glad you found this and gained some help from it too 😎 - Taz.
This literally answered all of my questions. Thank you, thank you, thank you! ❤
Until I saw this, I thought I knew what I was doing. Thank you for the clear and thorough education. I have my own You Tube Channel and will take inspiration from you methods.
Well articulated. Excellent video. Well done for taking on a difficult subject. I've learnt something. Thank you
Thanks Phil! That's our goal, appreciate your taking the time to comment 😎 -Taz.
Andrea i love it mate, NOT RUN IN, IT'S RUNNING OUT. SO TRUE.
Breaking-in removes the tops of the hone peaks as the rings bed-in, and cylinder rings, cam shafts, lifters, and valve guides 'lap-in'. I've seen engines torn down with high mileage that still have significant hone marks, as the honing also provides valleys where oil lubricates long after break-in. Yes moderate loads and varying the rpm is the best approach for break-in for the first several hundred miles. Yes, an engine breaking in generates more heat from all the friction of new parts 'bedding-in'. Avoid breaking in at highway speeds on very hot days. Could over-whelm your cooling system, and your oil's ability to lubricate.
With all modern engines having much tighter tolerances than older motors, it's always wisest to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for break-in. Early first oil changes are a controversy. Some see it as cheap insurance to ensure minimal oil contamination from break in. Others see it as the premature removal of the manufacturer's break-in oil, to a waste of time and money. I think changing after the first 3000-miles as not harmful, and cheap insurance. Oil doesn't break down, the additives do. OEM oil filters should be able to remove any particles that could cause wear, so there's minimal risk.
As to not using synthetic oils for break-in, I believe Corvette engines come from the factory with synthetic oil, but I'm not sure if they are a synthetic break-in oil... GM has used a lot of racing R&D and experience on their premier brand so they should know what does and does not work...
I think it's a mistake to put your credence on anyone's 'personal experience'. No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. 'What has been shown to work' for one builder could be different than 'what has been shown to work' for another builder, so all advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
"No independent builder has the resources or even the equipment and expertise to evaluate the results of their procedures better than a manufacturer. "
You are right, but Toyota for example built your 2jz for 200hp or so in a road car, not 600, 1000, 2000hp or more for circuit, drift or drag etc using aftermarket parts like your local independent builder will have done 100's if not 1000's of times (depending on the specific shop and engine).
Modern engines are certainly coming from the OEM with less headroom than older ones for sure however, and the gain or salt comment is bang on noting that also applies to the OEM if you are not keeping within their specifications and parts lists... ;) - Taz.
Nice to know I've allways done it the correct manner, and most good engine builders use this technique, as I've understand. Only addition, is that when running in NiSiC ("Nikasil") coatings, you really need to be even quicker and more brutal from the get-go. Also if possible, if the engine coolant can be circulated and heated and oil can be heated, so the engine is at working temp faster, this will also aid the rings to seat to the bore in its form where its mostly going to opperate, from the get go, especially if the block is bored and honed at operating temperature.
I haven't had the pleasure of working with nikasil coatings which I'm not unhappy about :)
Excellent information! I've been using very similar techniques for 40 years with very good results.
HARD break in. It’s either gonna break or live forever this isn’t the 50s
I build race engines, have probably built over 250 in 10 years. I would really say you need to break it in for at least 250-500 miles, especially before you take it to a race. If all your doing is a street car, maybe you can get away with less. That being said you don’t wanna baby it, you want to get to about 3/4 to 7/8 max rpm sustained. You touch red line but just don’t hold it there for longer than 2-3 second.
Last of all after break in, PLEASE get an oil change, plus filter AND spark plug change, fine metallic material, mostly from the rings will coat and stick to the ceramic porcelain of the spark plug and can and usually cause less than ideal spark and combustion.
I think one of the most overlooked things is the very first oil change I feel like the engine should be run for just a few miles and then get an oil change to get rid of all of the metal and other contaminants that happened to be there during the engine building process
I'd agree, and this is covered in the webinar.
that's why god created oil filters
@@AnissaEx All engines I've seen have some type of filter bypass, the filter doesn't catch everything.
@@jeffreydurham5342 Probably why they don't want high revving until that first oil change.
Use a good quality oil filter, replace it immediately, as you replace the oil, after that initial break-in. It's imperative, that the filter be a fine enough mesh, that it filters particles larger than the film thickness of the oil.
Great video, methodical. Had to let mine idle for 2 minutes to check for leaks and dial in the fuel pressure regulator, top up coolant etc before I go out on the road. Next start (after lockdown) will be on the way to the dyno 5 miles away and 1hr run in as suggested! Great video, thanks!
Great info Andre.
I recently bought my first new car, an 86. Never dreamed I would buy new but have spent _my entire life_ thinking about exactly how I would break in a new engine if ever I had the chance!
I logged oil temp, manifold etc. from the first drive to know exactly what to do. Used most vacuum possible, little load. Revved it out fully when appropriate very early on.
It hasn't used a drop of oil and a relative has had two Subarus in a row with the FA20 that have gone on schedule at the dealer due to losing litres per few thousand k's.
I have BRZ, what oil do you use?
@@saulespino2510 Castrol Edge. Test results have come back very good.
Excellent. I decided to do my own building (engine, transmission, and tuning)
I just did a rebuilt on my 5.9l magnum heads and I didn't do anything on my cam & lifters
Or crank and so on. When I put the
Lifters back in I did put 105 part lubricant grease on them and on the camshaft and on the distributor gears and on the Rockers as well. My question is can I just get by with just dumping 5 quarts of oil and zinc all over the Rockers camshaft and down the oil galleys and let it drain down to crankshaft before I button everything up and then start it without having to Prime the oil with the distributor which I'm not looking forward to. Thank you much for your time love to video thanks for your patience and help
We'd break in 14:1 race engines for about 30 minutes. never had an issue. Of course they only had to last a month.
Basically just a single heat cycle and then some brake loading cycles when back to temp.
Can you make a video about spinning g bearings
Excellent, excellent, excellent! I have been saying the same for years. Still HUGELY controversial topic for the vast majority including so called experts and engineers. This process is very methodical and falls into the "hard break in" for most, but so many fail to understand the details involved.
Pretty good.
But the zddp issue is with the catalytic converter.
Yes. Eats cats like crazy. That’s why the 80’s engines ran so long with exceptional mpg until the cats clogged
FYI, it's been my experience that most engine builders are using way to much oil on piston rings. For my NASCAR and aircraft performance racing engines, I use 3 drops of oil on each ring and very thin film on the cylinder, piston skirts, and oiling pin, using rubber gloves. Then to dyno
turnin wrenches on leaf blowers for mommies garden is different than modern day high performance engines. shut the fuck up if you don't know shit and stick to garden duty
I worked at volvo in sweden building engines. And as soon as the engines come of the production line they go on dynos for about 40 minutes.
During this period they are hooked upp to an external fuel/coolant/oil loop.
Let it come upp to temp. Look for leaks etc.
I thought this was only for quality controll. But probably they are doing that break in thing with the piston rings that you talked about because they do rev them to about 3000rpm and go upp and down abit during that period.
It might still be for quality reasons, but they simply have to bed the rings to run it up like that. You only have a small window of time to do that correctly within.
Interesting insight, cheers for sharing! - Taz.
@@hpa101 yea. They talked alot about quality controll. Once in a great while we had some truly spectacular result when something came loose in the bottom end and sploded the engine in an instant XD.
Better there than on the road i supose.
One of the biggest factors modern break-in is so brief vs "Old School" is lack of Leaded Fuel. Leaded fuel drastically impacted Ring bed-in during the Muscle car days. a long gentle break-in was warranted. Also very short oil change cycles were in order. Old School methods are todays myths. Now I'm off to have an argument with an older family member as to why you don't have to warm your modern car up for 10 minutes before driving it...
I have new cylinders and new gapless piston ring sets for my engine.
I plan on a 2 step break in with oil from DRIVEN specifically made for break in. One batch is a
15W50 and the other is a 5W30. Which one shall I use for the first 100km and which for the next 200km before going to a synthetic oil.
Btw. the camshaft are original in good condition with 100 thousand miles on them and look like new.
Thank you for all the information you put in this video, very helpful, keep you the great work 👍
I found that in most cases where the flattappet camshafts dont bed-in right is because theres some that use the thicker assembly lube to lube up the whole lifter sides and all and that can become so sticky the lifters cant rotate correctly. I apply ZDDP additive with 10/w/30 in a small handheld oilcan to the lifter bodys and put the assembly lube only on the bottom of the lifter and the camshaft lobes only.I also lube the camshaft bearings and cam journals with ZDDP additive and 10w/30 motor oil as I always prime my oil pumps before start up and use a Moroso dry start eliminator pressurized oil can at start-up....
I feel better watching your video. Being a little anxious and amatuer i bought my 406 SBC n/a as a longblock and installed myself.
#1 should I have used break-in oil even though Tri-Star engines recommended conventional 10w/40? (I'm fine there... engine oil is perfect)
#2 I did prime the pump with a drill so I'm fine there with 70 p.s.i.
#3 I TOOK IT OUT AND DID A FEW BURNOUTS, but it's a 2,850 lbs S10 pickup with a 4:10 gear so it spins super east on the street, I drove it about 15-20 minutes circling Telegraph Rd and Eureka on open headers yesterday. Fun as shit!
I'm going to take it easy and cruise it varying between 2000-4000 rpm in 3rd gear and let the rings seat some more...
39:08 Epic time of this Webinar, But this Video is wonderful and full of gold informations.
Thanks so much for all the informations guys.
after a rebuilt and right before the very first engine start , I always use pressure remote oil feed , using the oil pressure port. I usually inject 2.5 ltr of oil , this will prime all the engine , oil pump included. on tha first start the engine will have instant pressure. the tool I used is an DIY one from an water filter. is equipped with manometer , air pressure regulator , air trigger controll and for oil fittings I use the ones for a oil pressure test kit.
Yes, that's a valid option and one that many use. If you run a dry sump pump then you're even better off as you can remove the belt and drive the pump manually to achieve oil pressure prior to startup. The reality for most people though is that removing the spark plugs and cranking the engine on the starter is absolutely fine and you won't do any damage provided the engine was properly lubricated during assembly.
@@hpa101
This doesnt apply to rebuilds or engines modified for high performance ce use but production engines are tested in cells for oil pressure, ignition timing, cam sensors if any, vacuum etc. All drilled oil passages are washed with high pressure. Plus on aluminum blocks and heads oil passages are gun drilled using a high pressure coolant. If the coolant flow is interrupted at all during the gun drill process the gun drill will seize in the hole. These holes can be drilled 300mm deep or more in around 20 seconds. The odds of machining debris inside a production engine is extremely low today. In the past with cast iron engines that's a different story.
Motul 300v for the win. I run that stuff in my regular motorcycles
On the idling note. There is a diesel mechanic on YT that found that the trucks that spend the most time idling have polished cylinders allowing lots of blow by. He had a costumer bring in a very clean low mileage dump truck that was consuming huge amounts of oil. The guy he had bough it from said it was is good condition because it sat idling (more than usual apparently) while waiting for loads to hual. Basically the outside of the truck was great, but the engine had to be rebuild.
Yes, that's very true. There still seems to be misconception in the diesel world that idling is acceptable and even desirable which has never been true. Just don't beat on it or put significant load on it until your oil and coolant are up to temperature
Why does the oil filter not filter out the ring debris before it gets into sump and so back round through the oil system.?
i just built an engine and im glad i stumbled on this, makes me feel better cause im gonna go out and beat it lol
Outstanding best detailed explanation I have heard yet. Excellent presentation. Thank you so much.
You're very welcome, hope it helped/helps and thanks for the encouragement 😎 - Taz.
Only break in I've ever done was a short run at about 2500rpm, not idle, when using solid lifters, hydraulic non-roller, and that's only because it's recommended for lifter seating on the camshaft... roller lifters don't have such a recommendation... outside that, I only changed oil after about 300-500 miles, then ran the engine as I desired......
interesting, I may need to revise my break in procedures for rotary engines.
🤣
Nothing more stressful than a new cam break-in on an all new setup motor back in the carby days.
Better hope your jetting/valve/spring guesses were close enough for you to dial in 6 different screws while trying to constantly vary RPM
Not something I have had to personally bite my nails over but I can appreciate the work! - Taz.
I have very little knowledge mechanically and this is exactly what I did breaking in a new motorbike I brought in 2015. Read that sitting at the same rpm was the worst so used a “hard break in” method used on race dirt bikes. Used varying loads with acceleration and de- acceleration over a range of gears and rmps progressively increasing the throttle. Not practical to do on the road out of the shop as your rolling on and off the throttle but I did this for the sole reason of maximum compression by seating the rings to the cylinder bore wall.
Nikasil has been around since the 1960's, Mahle developed it for Porsche. Only recommendation I've ever seen was from Kawasaki motocross bilks, use 400 grit wetordry.
when built mine the rebuild company (PAI) told me to load the engine straight away. when i asked them how they told me to use a dyno and break (well i dont have that) so they suggested hooking another car or large trailer up and dragging it under heavy throttle for a couple miles... not sure if 'seating rings' really matters but i borrowed a friends trailer with a loader on it and drove around with that when i pulled it out of the garage for hte first time
well that was a long watch but very good info.. obviously a lot of experience with fresh motors.. So much bad info on the web about this subject and nice to hit one that pretty much knocks it out of the park for accuracy..
A couple side notes on "flat tappet" cams... "flat" is relative, lifters are actually "convex" ground so refacing is a process that is really "iffy".. buy new.. Cam is also bathed in a lot of "splash" from crankshaft and drain down from engine valley.. (this is in fact a problem on the new "Hemi" motors from Mopar.. cams are running too dry and self destructing... Is the main reason for the 2000-3000 RPM process.. get oil up there...
"most" racing oils are high in ZDDP additive package but lack detergent packages.. I like them for break in before going synthetics...
You do know that the "authorities" will be here and then bring up Cr and DLC coatings.. blah blah blah... more things change, the more it stays the same... find info specific for your build..
I went to school with a kid from the McMillen racing family. He told my autoshop teacher that they hard break in all their engines for about 15-20 minutes.
Excellent and thorough explanation of a process with tons of hearsay and misconception floating around out there. Your method is pretty much my method, and it has served very well for both an Alusil bore Porsche 944 engine I did (with only a homebrew DIY cylinder deglazing/re-lapping process to boot...Alusil can be super finnicky with surface prep for new rings), and a more conventional Honda B20Z2, both of which broke in perfectly with no smoke or oil consumption. I have a Honda D15B VTEC to break in tomorrow, actually, and a Hyundai Delta V6 engine in a couple of weeks that has reground cams, so also put me at ease on how to balance cam versus ring break in.
I've always wondered about full synthetic oil and engine break in. On quite a few of its cars, GM recommends Mobil 1 full synthetic. Do we think that GM is using mineral oil for it's initial fill? Or, is GM installing mineral oil and then running the engines on a break-in dyno before, then removing and refilling with M1 before installing the engine's in a vehicle? Not just GM - GT 500's require synthetic and I think also Mustang GT's with the Coyote engine. What do you think?
If you disagree with any of this, you need to go back and think again.
Only components to bed in are rings to bore, cam to follower and some times oil pump drives.
If you have a radical cam profile lifting over 15 thou/deg you need 4000 rpm the moment it starts. Only way to run that type of engine in, is on a engine dyno, I've tryed on a chassis dyno, over the past 30 or so years with mixed results.
i was agreeing right up to 9 mins or so , ive seen engines with 200k on them that still have the original hone pattern on the bore , so where does the wears off relatively quickly part start.
You're seeing the valleys, not the peaks.
@@jeffreydurham5342 lol .... the oil won't sit on the peaks ... still ... a good come back ...
Hi Tom,
I think perhaps the terminology being used can be a bit of a red herring with what predominantly occurs during that early period of unit running. Like I have said in a previous comment it is a very complex area. The way that most people look at running in is a one method catches all. Different materials, lubricants, temperatures, pressures, etc, all play a part in how you go about running an engine in. An analogy here is, take the engine as a meal and the procedure as an oven.
.........Hey mate, how do I run in my "roast lamb and spuds"....common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins". Hey mate how do I run in my "egg chips and beans"...common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins". Hey mate how do I run in my "apple pie and custard"...common answer, easy, "Gas Mark 5 for 30 mins".
Each engine is different, especially hand built engines, and a running in procedure for them needs a lot of consideration. But reputable OEM's spend a lot of time and money with their Tribologists, Metallurgists and Lubricant Specialists to work out the best running in procedure for their units, so my advise, for what it is worth, would be to stick to what they say. If after that, all goes teats up, that's what warranties are for, and believe me OEM's don't like paying for mistakes after acting on advise from Jim Chipchop Racing's running in method.
I can maybe answer your question a bit better if you are interested but it may get a bit boring and technical.
@@mdf113 yes i'm always interested ..its always good to learn new things .. i've built many many engines . Granted not to the performance levels here .. but I don't expect to see my work back for many many miles .
T
Hi again Tom,
Here we go, it may get boring but I will try to keep it short, don't forget this is a potted overview of a complicated subject with many aspects simplified.
First off lets set some pentameters. We will consider our hypothetical engine uses a FeMo (Ferro Molybdenum) liner/bore surface (common in most iron block engines without liners), a CI (Cast Iron) ring and using a PAO or Ester base lubricant with no anti friction or anti wear additives.
Look at the materials first. We need to look at the NANO scale topography of the material, so 1E-9m.....pretty small. The material surface under a high power microscope looks like the Himalayas with peaks and troughs covering the surface, and this is on the top of the texturing ridges (honing ). These peaks are know as "asperities" and have plastic and elastic properties. Now for the lubricant regimes, these are, "boundary" regime, where the asperities often come into contact with each other, "hydrodynamic" regime where a film of lubricant separates the two sliding materials and a "mixed" regime where some touch and some don't, we will ignore EHL for simplicity.
Now, the asperities when prior to initial start up are predominantly in the elastic state and parts of them during the initial running will "shake down" and become plastic and this will reduce the height of the asperity, which is often confused as wear ,when in fact it is simply material deformation. Think of squashing chewing gum, when you release it some of it springs back but some stays flattened, this happens on those initial fired cycles, which have far greater pressure in the cylinder than that which occurs during manufacture. The "shakedown" period to compress the plastic properties of the asperities is relative to all of the conditions I have mentioned in the past. Example a TiN coated ring on a NiSiC liner surface may take longer to "shakedown" than say a CI ring on a FeMo liner..... this is why running in is not a one size fits all, my analogy of the meal and oven in my previous post holds.
All of the little valleys between the asperities are what en-train the lubricant in an effort to prevent asperity contact.
When the piston approaches TDC it reaches the reversal point and at this point and for a short period after this, where the pressure of the ring on the liner is at its highest, due to the pressure from the compressed and ignited gasses, it will possibly be in the boundary lubrication region where the oil film is at its thinnest and asperity contact often occurs. This is where bore wear is most prominent and is sometimes seen as a very shiny area at the top of the bore. This also happens at the BDC changeover area, but to a lesser extent due to a much lower contact pressure of the ring to the liner. Remember the surface texturing is often at micro scale and we are in nano scale on top of the texture ridges which also contain a small amount of lubricant.
However as the piston recedes down the liner, ignoring piston rock as that can complicate things, be it firing or inducting, a film of lubricant that was sprayed onto the liner via jets or by windage forms a barrier that separates the liner asperities from the ring asperities and the system is now in the hydrodynamic regime of lubrication where no, or very little, if any, asperity contact occurs.
This is why when a correctly, and well lubricated unit with correctly sized components, (ring gap, piston bore clearances, ring grove dimensions, correct thrust angles etc), will suffer only pico scale liner upper, mid and lower stroke wear, if at all any, (but not in the changeover areas) and appears, and often is, in good condition because simply put, the piston ring and piston are floating on a nano scale thickness film of oil separating them from the liner as the pressure in the cylinder dissipates. If you are getting even a small amount of mid stroke bore wear, (other than bad thrust fitment), you have got something seriously wrong.
We haven't got to the lubricant side of things yet, and that's another thing to throw into the mix.....!!!
This is one of the many reasons why thermal properties of the liner, ring, piston etc, must be considered when clearancing is done.
A low thermal expansion piston fitted to a high radial expansion block/liner can promote blowby, lubricant consumption, piston slap and low power. On the other hand a high expanding piston on a low expanding block/liner can create mixed or even boundary conditions and the piston may seize.
Remember this is a very simplified explanation and if anyone else wants to have a crack at it in half a dozen paragraphs, feel free.
i built a 1994 GSR-B18C1 turbo with 16 PSI boost WITH no break-in just ran it no break-in on the new crower cams or crower valve train from Bruce Crower here in san diego, now this 1993 Honda Civic is crazy fast never lost a race in san diego yet, has ASAB Steel insert removeable insert cylinder liners 81MM i can pull them out and replace them in hours... and honda 2000 high vol low presser oil pump.. and adjustable skunk 2 cam gears with 60 K coil..and a stand alone ECM . no porting of heads at all. dyno lost trackion at 500 Horsepower which i never could understand why they could not strap it down tight...
Always informative and interesting content. It does depend on you speak to. HPA always offer you great content 👍 Aussie Fan 💯🇦🇺💯
All engine oils still contain ZDDP. The limit is 800ppm for both Zinc and Phosphorus, as part of the SN spec.
Personal opinion to follow: I'm convinced that there are metallurgical issues causing American flat tappet cams going flat. As this never seems to be an issue with classic Japanese flat tappet eninges.
The current specification for maximum zinc levels is much lower than what we saw 20-30 years ago and as a result we don't see the same level of protection. This is why there is now a market for ZDTP additives or special break in oils with a high ZDTP level.
I run REDLINE full synthetic in my 2 newer vehicles. They have a lot of ZDDP and phosphate over “ the limit”
When ever I hear some of this stuff, I always think back to a few documentaries I watched in the past where they toured an automotive/motorcycle plant. I believe it was Kawasaki or Honda motorcycles as well as Honda and Ford performance cars. What was their break in? Turn the vehicle on, rev it a couple times to get the temp needle to move, then give it a few fat rips before strapping it to a dyno and doing a full pull.
I think I can trust Honda and their methods considering they are some of the most reliable cars ever.
Least reliable *
@@justinrawlings9354 You are in the extreme minority my friend.
Extremely realist*
@@justinrawlings9354 ok. again, in the minority
@@justinrawlings9354 show me on the doll where the honda boi touched you
A little suggestion/advice regarding priming: it would make a lot of sense to use a pressurized oil priming tool. That way pressure would be there basically immediately. The engine won’t show the difference on the first 50k kilometers, but the last ones!
Loooo
Man I didn’t get this update.. glad this came up.
Awesome video, the only time I change my break in process is in ring material black steel vs chromemoley
This was really great, with there was more information about rotaries and break in but I understand that we are far and few.
We're working on more rotary content. Building won't be this year, but tuning will - Taz
it sounds like rotaries may need the break in due to all the different seals and whatnot that they have relative to a piston engine. the vargas brothers seem to think so although im not sure how well acquainted with the science they are and that could likely be wrong.
Driven brand break in oil is excellent
Thank you I recently had oil mixing with my coolant mls gasket I retorqued the head and has seem to went away
You may want to change it soon
ZDDP was reduced because of effects on catalytic converters and as oils became better with lubrication on their own reducing wear, ZDDP became less needed. It also requires higher heat and pressure to actually work which with modern oils is reduced unless high power output is achieved. Racing oils still use high levels as well as gear oils, but Boron and other additives are actually better but more expensive. Engine assembly lube is another myth. Use the intended run in oil, prime components before hand and that's it. Assembly lube is only used when you build an engine that may be sitting around for a long time, but even then you can hand prime/turn an engine. Heat cycling is required for certain head gaskets/studs/valves for re-tensioning.
EXCELLENT video. Thanks man
very weird 1st of april video... everything seems sound and true haha
would you check head studs torque after some heat cycles on high boost racing engine?
No jokes here! Yes it's not uncommon to re-torque the head after a heat cycle. This is less critical with MLS gaskets than the older composite gaskets but we still did this with our high boost drag engines.
Im building a basic 7age 20v would i want to re torque the arp head studs after the first heat cycle. Im using a trd MLS gasket.
Thank you for these awesome videos. Super informative and good info.
Assuming apex seals = compression rings, Do you use the same procedure for a rotary engine break in?
I don't build rotary engines so I can't advise you from experience. There isn't a hone pattern as such on a rotor housing but I would still expect the apex seals and side seals to seat or bed over the first hour or so of operation. If in doubt then I'd consult a rotary engine specialist.
I have a theory about oil usage on Honda engines.
I've done a lot of work on Honda B and K series engines over the years and some will use maybe 1 litre of oil per 1000 miles and some won't use a drop. Both can be used the same, on the same oil and have similar mileage. Both can make similar power. Both types are really common.
My theory is that the ones that use oil, followed the manufacturer break in period of however many thousands of miles, and the ones that don't use any were beasted from day one. I can't prove it but it makes sense. It's almost always ring failure when they start smoking too, usually gummed up oil rings.
Older flat tappet camshaft needs 20 minutes at 2000 rpm, break in oil then drive it below full throttle with breaks of up and then coast.
Another serious question here although it does not concern me personally. If you are breaking in a turbocharged engine, do you run it with a mineral (dino) oil to break it in? My thought is, for the static break in, yes. Over the road, no. What does the Academy teach?
No reason to use mineral
@@Boz1211111 With a new vehicle, fresh out of the dealership, undoubtedly true. With a rebuilt engine, I am not sure. I am never going to actually rebuild a contemporary engine. I am just collecting information. And trying to destroying misinformation.
There are different mechanical theories, but with break in the theories can be tested by tearing down engines and doing precise measurements. Especially, with laser scanning it would be very easy to determine how well the different parts lapped in and whether one method or another did any damage however infinitesimal to the turbo.
I seriously doubt that doing the static phase of the break in on a turbo engine with mineral or Group III synthetic would harm either the turbo or any of the sensors. Another issue though is that for some weights of oil, only synthetic is available.
Of course, there are synthetic break in oils available. If I had just spent thousands to buy a replacement engine whole or whatever you have to spend to rebuild it yourself, I think I would pay for synthetic break in oil. With a cast iron block engine, life is a little simpler.
Yes we use good quality mineral oil. If you plan to switch to synthetic we'd still run mineral up to around 200kms of engine use even though the majority of the break-in process is complete by 20-50kms. Note that's not to say you do the first oil change at 200kms...
It is tricky as there are many opinions on this and even speciality break-in oils, so note we only advise what we have had proven success with rather than stating what we are doing is the ONLY way it can be done.
This is covered in more detail in the Engine Building Fundamentals course (direct module link below in case you own it), and also on the HPA members forums.
There is a short thread here amongst others: www.hpacademy.com/forum/general-engine-building-discussion/show/recommended-break-in-oil
Hope that is of some help - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/dashboard/courses/engine-building-fundamentals/engine-break-in-engine-break-in?
excellent information, thank you for the time.
Our pleasure mate - Taz.
I'm confused, should I use a break-in oil for my engine that uses AAC in direct contact on buckets? or minéral oil is ok ? :) sorry i'm french and my english comprehension is perfectible
So after the first ~100km of driving you do an oil change (to get rid of debris). Do you refill with a full synthetic at that point or refill with break-in oil again ? then move over to full synthetic at the next oil change ?
I break in on average almost one more a week. Roller cam, so start and very rpm from 1500 to 2500 to maybe 140 degrees. Shut down, check for leaks and fluids. Then I serialize the motor before it gets really hot. Then I run it from 2000 to 4000 rpm until it gets to 170. Calibrate the computer temp sensor and then it WOT. The motor will start to make more vacuum in the first 15 to 20 min. Run motors 30 to 90 minutes dialing it in before its customer ready. They can run it as they please once it's got some heat in it.
@stoeger 2 We give each motor a number so we can track it's build info and date.
I had a question - I started an engine rebuild and life got in the way (had to do a job move, etc), the engine has been on my engine stand for a couple years now. I used a permatex assembly lube back then, should I disassemble the engine again now and start over with the crank, etc to re apply the assembly lube??? I haven't put the rods and pistons in yet. Just the cam and crank and the crank is torqued down. Engine is old school Ford 352 FE bored .030 over. Going into a 1967 F100. Not a race truck but I don't want to hurt it at start up either. Thanks, love the videos. Clay
IMO, at least, do to mandatory oil changes; the fist one within the first few minutes of startup and the second one about 20 minutes in. Will remove lots of gunk, assembly lube, fine metal particles from the breakin.
Switch to synthetic after first 100kms? Or reload with break in oil and switch to synthetic on 3rd oil fill?
If you've "done it right", by 100km's you've done the majority of the abrasive break-in. The rings aren't really going to seat anymore.
I remember many years ago old guy (actually quite a well known engineer) reckoned if he had issues with rings not seating, bit of Brasso down the carb, reckoned it worked a treat and never experienced any negative results. Just telling the story.
Someone else used to handhone with 600 wet&dry. He actually was a big name in the aftermarket performance industry. Tried it myself once, worked well.
Have used garden sprayer with a barb fitting at the end of the hose and just screwed it into the oil pressure switch location. Turn it over by hand, have seen forty pounds, certainly pretty lubed.