Intro: (0:00) Part 1 - Of Mice and Murder: (8:52) Part 2 - All the Regent's Men: (27:52) Part 2.1 - High Overseer Campbell: (29:28) Part 2.2 - Morgan & Custis Pendleton: (50:00) Part 2.3 - Anton Sokolov: (1:11:24) Part 2.4 - Lady Boyle: (1:23:40) Part 2.5 - Lord Regent Hiram Burrows: (1:39:48) Part 3 - The Difference Between Treason and Patriotism: (1:54:23) Part 3.1 - Daud the Assassin: (2:01:52) Part 3.2 - The Loyalists: (2:22:37) Part 4 - A Knife in the Dark: (2:47:30)
I think it's interesting how you find permanently scarring someone and leaving them to become infected with the plague and lose their humanity, is not too far, having the pendleton twins sold into slavery, and that's not even mentioning the truly excessive and grotesque execution animations, but having Lady Boyle delivered to her creepy stalker for a similar fate is the point where it becomes truly morally objectionable. However, other than that, your alternative suggestions and critiques are well thought out, and interesting alternatives! Worth the time spent watching :)
@@AlyssMa7rin I personally looked at whether the nonlethal solution "fits" the supposed crime. Both the high overseerer and the pendleton twins' fate fit more or less their crimes, particularly with the high overseerer. Lady Boyle's does not though based on the information we receive. It is purely shock value and has no relation to her involvement (her funding the Lord Regent). It's thoughtless and doesn't even fit with what the concept of the non-lethals are supposed to be. People focus on the "fate worse than death" but not the "poetic justice that fits the crime" part. I believe if more people critically looked at it through that lens they would see that. Instead, because it's associated with many people's favorite level it frequently gets a pass. It's also disappointing in my opinion that in a 3 hour video filled with contentious points, many people are most upset with the fact that I think being an accessory to kidnap, r*pe, and emotional/mental violence (as implied by the Outsider) shouldn't have been in the game.
@@kaldini That's what Lady Boyle herself was, though. She was perpetuating the tyrannical state of the Lord Regent with her funding, and her approval by action. The Lord Regent does far worse to Dunwall, and without her it could be argued that his whole state falls apart, as he'd need to seize funding from the nobility, and thus alienate them. Plus, I'd point out that your disagreement with Boyle's fate also is a detail that doesn't strike people as outrageous due to the time period the game is set in. This is the time period where Marriage without assent was almost more common than marriage with it. By our standards today it's morally outrageous, but then so is submission to a totalitarian dictator like the Lord Regent, or even the Empress herself who ruled with (presumably) absolute authority, benevolent as she was. Edit: Also, another point I'd like to point out regarding Daud. I believe he put Corvo in that box, and left his weapons unprotected, was because he /wanted/ Corvo to attack him, and kill him. He's wracked by guilt, and seemingly a broken man. If he dies, then he gets the justice he believes, if he lives, he either proves his old ideology right by killing Corvo, or has a new perspective granted by being spared.
Come across a three hour Dishonored analysis/critique is like finding a fifty dollar bill on the ground on your daily walk. I am stupid excited for this dude.
On low chaos Emily makes a drawing of Corvo titled "Daddy", and there's a hidden room in Dunwall Tower where the empress tells Emily to be careful with her secret. So yeah, she knows. It is addressed.
It was obvious by just those 2 details, and I came to the conslusion by myself during one of my first runs of the game, so late 2012 (the hidden room is easy to find with dark vision), then in the 2nd game, it was blatantly said from the start. About the drawing, I did a high chaos run last week (but only killing hostiles) and still got the drawing.
@@thejirenplayerofalltime8981 It's true for the drawing on the wall, but not for the drawing she leaves on the desk behing Corvo's bed. And my memory is fresh, I did a run on the game last week, that gave me this exact configuration. (Yes I got the mask drawing on the wall, because I did a high chaos run, but I also got the "daddy" drawing on the little desk). I basically did a run with few civilian casualties, and choosing non-lethal for the main targets (even Daud or the lord regent) except for Pendleton brothers and Lady Boyle, I decapitated one of the brother and exploded the other one with a greanade. I killed the only real lady Boyle and kept her sisters alive.
One my favorite things about the hidden room, is that, should you look for it in Dishonored 2, there's a path straight to Delilah, through the secret path you escape from in the beginning of the game, which is extremely useful.
For the nonlethal option on the weepers - if you take them out nonlethally, you get a note form Piero in your room thanking you for not killing them, as it'll help his research.
For the lack of choice you mention in part 2, you mention that poisoning the distillery has no effect - it does actually cause a Weeper outbreak once you turn in the safe code to Slackjaw, and they'll fight the thugs, so you need to either sneak past them or wait for the thugs to kill them. There'll also be weepers in the reserve room, making it harder to access the supplies inside.
@@rorysmistakes I think my points still stand. For the note from Piero, it still doesn't answer the base question of what happens to those Weepers. Sure it'll help Piero but does that mean he killed them? Did he keep them caged up to study? If it's the former than it just moves the goal posts because Piero kills them instead of us. If it's the later I think this could've actually been a really cool thing for us to *see* in his lab or somewhere at the Pits. It would've actually indicated some small significance to the choice. For the second point on the poisoned distillery, I think I would hesitate to call it a "outbreak" when the 3-4 Weepers run into the distillery to attack the thugs. In my footage you can actually see this encounter happening and it makes no significant impact on the scenario - the Weepers actually kill the thugs in my footage. I wouldn't consider this meaningful in any regard, and it is the same window dressing of the Weepers under the bridge near Granny's hideout - addition of enemies to make it look like things have changed when really it plays out very similar regardless of your choice. Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comment too.
Just finished the video (or close to it - there's about ten minutes left). This is a great critique that encapsulates a lot of my issues with a game that I otherwise really adore. Ever since picking up Prey and playing through that I've gained a fascination with Arkane, and playing through Dishonored 1 and 2 has only made me appreciate the devs more. Do you have a twitter/twitch or any other socials I can follow? You clearly put a lot of effort into your content, and I'd love to follow you elsewhere, you deserve much, much more in the way of attention than you have (only 50 subs???)
@@kaldini It would totally have been awesome to see Piero's lab for the Weepers. Would've been cool to paint him as a foil to Sokolov in how he treats his patients, to be honest - him treating Weepers with more respect than Sokolov treats infected, but sane victims would be cool - maybe that could even change depending on the chaos you're in. As for the weeper outbreak, I do think that it should've been more noticeable, but it was something that I realized was a direct consequence of my actions when I played through the game. It would've been an awesome setpiece to see these thugs having to keep a defensible position versus a horde of Weepers, but I suppose that's probably a bit too far of a scope for a one-off thing.
@@rorysmistakes Appreciate the feedback! This is currently my own social media I have as I'm just kind of working on videos when I have time on the side. I don't think I could be consistent enough for twitter or anything haha. Maybe one day in the future though!
14:17 - Of course, Hiram Burrows sent him away because having the bodyguard there is a bad idea when you're planning an assassination. But the Empress agrees to it because Corvo has a special designation. He's a gift from Serkonos, a powerful warrior sent to aid the Empress. I think the idea was that Corvo would have an edge when trying to ask the Serkonans for help. Plus, him being an important person in the court and well being of the ruler shows how serious they are about the situation.
15:35 to be fair, when you meet the spymaster he says you were supposed to get back two days later, after the assassination. What I assume happened wasn’t so much a plan as just trying to improvise with an unexpected variable, which you also see when right after being accused the spymaster looks around as if on edge to make sure no one saw what happened actually and can contradict him
@@dudeist_priest Also also, when Corvo is tortured in the opening cutscene of the "Escape from Prison" mission, the spymaster tells him that he was at the wrong place at the right time. So, yes, the assassination was partly improvised and went actually better than planned as the traitors now had Corvo to blame, and not Daud. EDIT: I wonder what was the initial assassination plan before Corvo arrived two days earlier. Is it detailed in the game? Perhaps, Daud kills the Empress, then the spymaster manipulates/convinces Corvo into going after Daud instead of protecting Emily. Probably, the spymaster hoped Daud and his assassins would kill Corvo as well. Or Daud dies. Or both. I think he had contingency plans for all three outcomes. Emily becomes ruler and would be influenced by the spymaster, granting him escalating powers and so on until he would size all the power, leaving Emily as empress only in name.
Yeah, in the Royal Spymaster's safe with the audiograph there's a note from Daud saying the cost increased because Corvo wasn't supposed to be there@@dudeist_priest
I love playing on high chaos runs. It makes me feel both like I'm misbehaving and also like I'm the monster in a horror movie picking off people. Killing Samuel broke my heart, But him betraying me when I'm standing right there with a loaded gun still makes me giggle. Like, what did he think would happen? Also the world is atmospheric and deep without being annoying with it's worldbuilding. There's no eager academic explaining the uses of whale oil for you, you just infer it from the technology around you. I consider it a flawless game but I'm happy to hear anyone talk about it.
Did he tho? Did he really betray us, or did WE betray him. His trust and faith in us, didn't we betray that? As we "forced" him to be apart of our killing rampage. No mater how bad we did, not mater the horrible things we did to others, to the world. He still believed we were the lesser of two evils. Or maybe he just has a stander of seeing things through to the end, no mater what. And, even if you don't kill him, he dies later. As he setts out to the middle of the sea, pushed by his guilt over helping us, and drowned by the horrors he helped us committee. Maybe? I mean what the hell do I really know xD I semi "can't" believe people killed Sam, his disappointment and rage at me in the end broke my fucking heart. I, just apologized to him as he drove off.. :/ And yeah, in high chaos we are truly the kind of monster that goes down in legends and is remembered in one way or a other :p
I believe that high chaos is how game is meant to be played. Low chaos is for story purposes and it makes us feel good about beeing Goody two shoes, but ultimately we all know what's really fun
you know, while low chaos does have a better ending, i didn't feel like high chaos was a "bad" ending. however, the THOUGHT that it would give a bad ending for playing the fun way is quite a deterrent and is bad.
49:10 Pierro will leave a letter and a few sleepdarts in your room, thanking you for the live specimens and ensuring you that this contribution to the cure will not be wasted. 1:02:10 Those are all triggered by you poisioning the brew or not, branding the high overseer or not. ...while those tipically go hand in hand, its not technically tied to low or high chaos. If you did not poision the elixir there will be no weepers in bottlestreet. 2:07:30 This is again, a missunderstanding of the games triggers. There is a lot more variety than you assume, and these events exist in all kinds of combinations
When I first played dishonored I was too impatient and would screw everything up. After watching this I realize I wasn't utilizing the creative opportunities give to me by the developers. Makes me wanna whip out the ps4 and try again. Thanks Kaldini, you're the best!
To answer the question of consequence in deciding whether to spare or kill the weepers (49:01) there is a dialogue with Piero who thanks Corvo for leaving him live specimens to test his plague elixirs. This is a great critique so far of a game I so dearly love and I'm enjoying it highly so far. Very nice!
I had no idea you could battle and then spare Daud, the game tells you the nonlethal route is to grab his stuff and get out so that's just what I did. Thank you for showcasing his speech here instead of glossing over it, some essayists would just assume familiarity with details like that and it makes your points land stronger presenting the proper context!
Oh man, the throwaway line near the last minute about not being able to plan a build because of the randomized bone charms unsealed some dormant frustration in me. In my first playthrough where I was just messing around, I got the quick-choke charm as one of the first ones in my run, but when I tried a no-power no-kill run, it took multiple missions for me to get it.
A fair point to the fight right after the empress is killed, only to tell you to be stealthy right after. At least for the story. I would assume that as the empresses bodyguard this is just how Corvo would be in any fight, sword and gun blazing, but after he's imprisoned and escapes he needs to keep a low profile and be stealthy.
Only thing I would say, is there’s a lot of hate around Piero but I really like him. I think he talks weirdly and acts weirdly because he’s supposed to be this introverted weirdo who doesn’t interact with people much. Hes a genius touched by the outsider, he doesn’t sleep because he spends his nights inventing and thinking about things. Of course he’s gonna be a bit of a creep. He’s not written to be a morally good guy, he’s a pervert, probably because he never interacted with women much, which makes his attempts at flirting with Callista really amusing because he has no clue what to say. Piero has the crime of being a creepy perv, but I find him remarkably human. Compared with Sokolov who is supposed to be a literal psychopath, he locks people in cages to experiment on them. He develops military technology and refuses help to work on the plague elixir because he wants the glory. There are rumours you can over hear of Sokolov constantly using prostitutes and being morally bankrupt. He is responsible for removing Piero from college because he grows so quickly it scares him. The series seems to forget this about Sokolov in the second game and death of the outsider. He is treated like a hero while Piero is forgotten, probably because Arkane thought he wasn’t as popular Despite the bad blood between the two, Sokolov and Piero develop each other when they are in contact. Sokolov regrets his actions and accepts help from Piero, they both go on to create the plague elixir collaboratively in the prologue. Also if you knock out the weepers, you get a note next to your bed from Piero that he’s going to use them as test subjects for a plague cure
I understand your point about the chaos system, and while I agree that it's not perfect, I don't entirely see it the same way you do. High chaos and low chaos does NOT necessarily mean lethal vs non-lethal. High chaos is not essentially about how wrong killing somebody is, it's about excessive use of violence to achieve your goals, it's about killing too much. You can choose the lethal approach on every target and still remain low chaos because you chose to spare all the random guards in your way by knocking them out or stealthily avoiding them. You can also choose the non-lethal approach on every target and still go high chaos if you're making piles of bodies along the way. So the game is basically saying to you: Killing is fine if you think it's the way to go about it, but if you go too far and indulge in a bloody rampage during every mission then expect consequences. Yeah, maybe some of those targets do deserve to die or are better off dead, but murdering dozens of random guards just because you feel like it is obviously going to bring more chaos to the world. You're making wives widows and children orphans everytime you viciously stick your blade into some poor city watch guy's throat instead of just choking him out or shooting a sleeping dart at him. Anyway, just my 2 cents on the subject. Great video btw. You've earned a sub.
Man I'm glad I was recommended this video I love listening to lenghty video game critiques, and I really liked Dishonored when I played it through last summer You've actually made me want to reinstall Dishonored and replay it Great job, I hope this gets recommended to more people
Haha, I just finished my first run, full chaos, not sparing anyone, and started a full ghost non lethal run, i love the game, and it sure has my 1st place medal
A pretty in depth video. I always appreciate when people enthusiastically describe their love for a game while still being willing to listen to criticism of it and acknowledge the game's objective faults. And as someone greatly interested in RPGs and choice in games your section about the Chaos system was quite good
Thanks for watching! I'm currently working on the follow up video focused on the Daud DLCs. A large part of that video is discussing the Slaughterhouse and Draper's Ward levels, both of which feature the most complex choices in the series, in my opinion.
The Slackjaw deal has never made sense to me for such a high stakes endeavor. Here is a list of some of the many points of failure: 1. Engaging with Slackjaw at all is a huge risk to Corvo because of the bounty on his head. He could be walking into an ambush. 2. Trusting Slackjaw on his word alone is a hell of a leap of faith when Emily's seat on the throne is on the line. Killing the twins when you have the chance is the obvious move instead of hoping and praying someone else will do it for you. 3. Slackjaw might actually do what he said he would, but fail in the attempt. The Pendleton twins would go into hiding and the Loyalists would never get a second chance to secure the needed parliamentary votes for Emily. 4. The game has a cartoonish quirk where it lets you betray Slackjaw and rob the safe before he can get to it, but he still decides to help you anyway. Oh yeah, that's totally how people think, especially heads of criminal organizations. "Well, the deal was technically for the code to the safe, not the contents therein." I'm sure Slackjaw would see it that way and definitely not hold a grudge. There should have been a cutscene where Havelock chews you out for being a dumbass if you try the non-lethal option, then an awkward silent boat ride with Samuel as you go back to the mission area to actually complete it. It's what would really happen given the context of the game's events.
I don't have to worry about that, because after Slackjaw gives me a key to the neighboring buiding that allows me to infiltrate the Golden Cat more easily, I simply release the weepers on his men, and stab him like a pig. Sorry, not sorry Pendleton. I'm not gonna work with criminals. The rune and the Pendletons belong to me and my blade. And the streets of Dunwall, once the plague is gone, will be safer with one less gang in the world.
Slackjjaw asked the code to the safe, he never stated anything about its content. Huge, HUGE mistake from Slackjaw, you NEVER leave a gray zone for this kind of deal 😂 What would do Slackjaw after that ? He already couldn't do anything against granny rag and ended miserably at her mercy, who wasn't even a trainned "professional" in the 1st place, so his life expectancy against Corvo, with henchmen on his side or not, would be in the stop-time range. That shows up the difference between the marked by the outsider, and the common thug: the commoner stands zero chances (even a Predator's Yautja would not stand a chance 1v1: stop-time, springrazor, done), and that's the point of the whole series.
If you steal the stuff in the safe Slackjaw Will mention It during the confrontation with Granny Riggs He Will Say something like "you tricked but please save my ass"
@@Ale-dd3ek Good observation. That also necessarily means that he voluntarily decided to risk the lives of his men and go through with his plan to help you deal with the twins even after he realized you betrayed him. Either that, or he opted to try robbing the safe only after that, which doesn't make sense to me either. That would mean passing up the art dealer's house on the way there and ignoring it long enough that the dealer may have come home by the time he wanted to finally get to the safe. We can headcanon Slackjaw as being kind of stupid, but that is less satisfying than having a narrative with characters who are competent and acting in a believable way.
apologies for the 1 yr late comment but i adore this video! just found it and in particular what stands out to me is how detailed, thoughtout and multifaceted your suggestions are, even if you acknowledge that they could be unrealistic; i can really feel how much you love this game and how charmed you are by the world-building and story, which as someone who agrees i can really appreciate. your ideas are also just very interesting and good brain food to chew on. thank you so much for sharing ^_^
Love this video and am so ready to listen to it during work tomorrow. I agree; Dishonored should be talked about more. It deserves more retrospectives and dissection video essays.
Dishonored is my favourite game series, from gameplay to design. Just the detail the artists went into engineering the lights and stuff for example blows my mind. Also, this came up on my algorithm recommendation. Imagine a switch port of this. A good one. Goodness me. Beautiful content. Commenting to feed the algorithm. This is Joseph Anderson level content. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! Dishonored is a special game series for me too. And thank you for the Joseph Anderson comparison - that is probably the highest compliment I could hope for, as he was my original inspiration to begin making my own videos.
this video is incredibly underrated! i've only recently played the dishonored games and while i love them you were able to voice a lot of the similar criticisms i personally had while playing very well! i love long video essays about my interests and this hit all the right spots, it was really well put together!!! :) i really hope you'll talk more about these games!!
I played this game not long after release and then replayed it about a dozen times. Having replayed it again recently, this video really opened my eyes, I never noticed a lot of things, especially with the plot. This video is extremely well done!
Severely underrated video, I might not have agreed with all of your points, but they always come across as being thoughtful and your insight on the game made the video a breeze to get through. After I’ve finished watching it, I can say I appreciate the game even more now. I’d like to see what you have to say on the expansion for the first game. You’ve earned a new subscriber.
I cannot wait for your Dishonored 2 review. This is easily the best review of Dishonored on all of YT. You're insightful and you aren't afraid to be critical while also offering alternatives. Keep up the good work
I've always loved Prey's solution to the concept of a "chaos system". In Prey the ending is based on how you treated people and your interactions with the survivors on Talos 1. It's not about how many hostiles you kill, like it is in Dishonored. I wish the Dishonored chaos system had a greater focus on how you treat civilians rather than hostiles. We've seen interactions in the games where you can stop civilians from being executed, or give money to a homeless man. I think the games being peppered with more of these interactions and having those contribute to chaos rather than just lethality to enemies would've been better
I think this comes down to the fact that gamers can pretty easily conceptualize the difference between characters the game labels as enemies vs civilians/allies. If I went through a level mowing down civilians and the game spat out a bad ending I would understand that. But when I go through using these powerful systems and tools that the game gives me and it punishes me for that in the narrative it just feels bad
Very well said. I also like that Prey had this additional system of how much Typhon material you had injected. It came with the cost of turrets registering you as an enemy *but* you had ways around that through hacking. Consequences for your actions while offering ways around even though consequences. It was excellent.
I’m pretty sure many of those incidents do actually contribute to chaos! Like being nice and helping lowers your chaos level. For example, in one of the games when you prevent a guy from being pushed into a wall of light, it lowers your chaos a bit as well as freeing Sokolov’s prisoners in dishonored 1. I could be wrong tho. Anyway, I do still agree that civilian interactions would’ve been amazing and a more concrete way of lowering chaos and worldbuilding.
Using the heart on the civilians really serves to highlight how horrid most of these people are. From child abusers, murderers, to petty thieves, there aren't many "good" citizens around
As a big fan of Joseph Anderson, this video was such a treat to watch! You really went the extra mile with how thorough everything was and it doesn't go unnoticed! I'll definitely stick around for more, it was a really impressive critique 🙌
It *is* explained what happens to the weepers under the Hounds Pit Pub. Pierro thanks you for bringing them to him alive as it will help in developing a cure.
Damn dude, 3 hours long and you somehow manage to avoid sounding pretentious. And on top of that, I have to say you have some really good points. One of the best video essays I've seen, and I don't think that's only because this is one of my favorite games.
Thanks for the comment and the compliment, it's appreciated, especially for a small channel like mine. Any points in the video that you disagree with? I like discussing this game.
@@kaldini One point I'd put forward is this: While I agree that having the relationship between the gameplay (specifically the nonlethal/lethal actions) and the Chaos system be so rigid is not the ideal implementation, I don't know if your proposed solution, at least on its own, is quite ideal either. The real issue (as you say) is that the Chaos system is based on morality. But more specifically, just one moral: Killing=Bad. While it would make more sense to assign chaos level on a per-scenario basis (i.e., which action would logically result in more chaos) this would ultimately exert a similar restriction, or at least pressure, on the player; the low chaos outcome would still be locked behind specific choices. The only difference is that the low chaos choice (still easily equatable with the "right" choice) would be unique (and predetermined) to each situation rather than consistently being: No killing. Again, this would make more sense, but the other side of the issue would remain. The player, or at least many players, would feel incentivized to make each choice in accordance with the game's estimation of what is less damaging, rather than their own personal feelings or opinions. These two things may diverge, after all. Now, this would still achieve what I think is the main point of the Chaos system---that being, making to the player weigh their actions--but might eventually fall into some of the same problems as the current implementation. Something that might help would be giving the player more actions to lower chaos--in the current game, low chaos is essentially achieved through abstinence, the inhibition of certain actions. Abstinence from killing, for example. These are largely passive and can create the feeling of being snubbed by the game (so many negative reviews share the sentiment that the game tells you one thing--Look at all these ways to kill guys!--and then punishes you for using said tools) or at least of missing out. If there were specific side objectives or even side targets (corrupt slum lords, etc) readily available which had the potential to lower chaos instead of merely not raising it, the player could choose to actively lower their chaos level, giving them more freedom in how they approach the main objectives. You could even integrate this into said main objectives: Maybe you kill such-and-such, but you'll also set up a more moral successor. That way only players who truly desire a High Chaos ending would receive one. Obviously an expanded nonlethal toolkit would complement this as well, as proved by Dishonored 2. Although I've always felt the Chaos system in that game isn't quite right either, probably because expanded nonlethal options are about the only changes it makes to the complexly problematic formula. I hope that wasn't too long! Or if it was, you at least found it bearable. Maybe I should've put a warning at the beginning...
@Gaius Fulmen I want to clarify my stance a bit: I do think the chaos system needs to be separated from morality and this would be done in two ways: the story "choices" as well as through gameplay. However I think the biggest factor in all of this is the "consequences." I'd actually argue that I'd be perfectly fine with the chaos = morality system *if* it meant that we got actual differences in levels. Different possible world states similar to what the final mission does. This would encourage replaying the game to play through these differences. Unfortunately, the game doesn't do this so it leads to this roadmap: no real differences outside of ending -> want good ending -> can't kill people -> can't use most of kit. A good contrast to this for me is the Fallout series (specifically 3 and New Vegas). Fallout 3 uses a morality system but I played through the game multiple times to see the differences, which were often substantial. New Vegas doesn't use the morality system and unless it was overtly evil it was sometimes hard to tell what was morally right in that situation. I enjoyed New Vegas more but I don't think that makes the Fallout 3 system inherently worse. They both accomplish what they are trying to do. The chaos system is at its core a morality system, but the problem is that it's a bad one. Because Arkane didn't create enough genuine choices for players and differences to go along with them, the chaos system *had* to be tied to gameplay/players using lethality because there was no other realistic measurement for the system in-game. So by creating more choices they would be able to dial back how much your actions (i.e. playing with the toolkit) impacts your chaos levels. For actual choices I think Arkane could've done two potential routes - one of them I detail in the video in the Sokolov section. Having more options that are morally wrong but low chaos as well as the inverse. This would at the very least have players think about what feels morally right vs what is best for Dunwall. Alternatively they could go the Witcher 3 route where for many of the choices you don't see any potential consequences until 10+ hours later, which makes it hard to save scum haha. Your idea about ways of lowering chaos is interesting and something I want to think on a bit more. My upfront concern would be that it would end up creating the DOTO contract system where (in my opinion) it pulls focus away from what you're supposed to be doing narratively for what I considered not really meaningful side content. I agree with your take on Dishonored 2 as well - I think outside of the Dust District big choice, the game all but jettisons any attempts to provide complex choices. Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I enjoyed reading it and it's given me things to consider as I begin making my next video on the Daud DLCs.
Ive always been annoyed by the chaos issue. Not because i dont like the chaos system, i actually really like it. In low chaos you go through spilling poetic justice (except for lady boyle, that ones fucked) whereas in high you go through gutting city guards and heads of state, which already would put the local government on the backfoot, but add in any extremist action inspired by the masked vigilante (like cops who flock to the punisher logo) and its gonna mess some stuff up. All on top of the fact that Emily is seeing you do all of this, and you are setting this example for her as a parent. She watched her mom die, then got kidnapped, and then watched her dad gut everyone between the two of them and his name. Sorta sets the precedent that its kill or be killed. Then, you have this gutted guard and government placed in her screwed up hands, and viola, cycles of violence. Its a great little theme imo. Could the endings be a little less heavy handed? Maybe. But i just dont get why so many people get in such a twist over a game ending when they can just hit new game. Ive done every type of run from high to clean hands+ghost. Theyre all fun
I reference the idea you're talking about with vigilante justice during my section on the Lord Regent mission. I also really like the chaos system, and kind of felt like DOTO wasn't true Dishonored without it. I just wish it was expanded upon in game. I think the Lord Regent's nonlethal would've actually been a perfect high chaos alternative, and taking him out as the low chaos. I mean look at the what is happening in the US political space right now to confirm this unfortunately (not saying people should be taken out, but that their misinformation and radicalization occurring).
@@kaldini I don't care if it's the low or high chaos option. Truth must be upheld. And if the government falls because of truth, then it's its own fault.
I don't watch videos that are longer than one hour but, hearing your thoughts in the first 8 minutes made me actually want to watch the whole thing. It's clear how passionate you are about the game just from listening to those first few minutes. I'll definitely try to watch it in chunks!
Really appreciate this comment - pretty much the greatest compliment I could ask for. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts once you've finished or throughout.
@@kaldini bro its 3hrs long though, couldnt you have trimmed the fat? cant possibly expect people to finish it. I watch it to go to sleep though, thats what I usually use these long videos for
@@dripfoe_3307 Lol, this is the style of video I like and so it's the style I want to make. If it's not for you, I just wouldn't click the video as you're clearly not the type of person this video is intended for. Thanks for increasing my views and minutes watched though! Especially if you did fall asleep to it! You likely got me a 3 hours of watch time :)
Just... the rats are so overpowered that is makes fighting everyone hilariously easy. Pair it whatever build you want and it becomes a glorious cake walk as the rat lord.
@@twinzzlers It always make me laugh to see Corvo as the duke during the final cutscene, keeping his mask on 😂, on a high chaos run on D2 (if you kill both Paolo and Byrne, and don't swap the duke and his decoy, indeed).
Great video, thoroughly enjoyed listening to you talk about Dishonored for the full 3 hours, definately earned my subscribtion though I must say it's sad I never managed to fully get into it.
Is the Spymaster making an oblique reference to Half-Life when torturing Corvo in the prison? Him saying to Corvo that he was "in the wrong place at the right time" is very similar to the iconic G-Man quote "the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world". Just something that occurred to me while watching this video.
this is a masterful essay on issues and thoughts i also had while still loving the game, that i couldn't gave proper words to. also, i'm so glad to see someone talking about this series again, i feel like there is a lot of interesting things that this game brought to the table, but barely anyone talk about it anymore. Watching this really kind of made me sad there arkane seems so uninterested in making games like these again. i've yet to play pery, but still. redfall. why.
Thanks for watching! I tentatively agree on Arkane's current direction but who knows: maybe Redfall will be fantastic. Or it'll push them back towards their roots. I highly recommend Prey since you said you haven't play it. I also recommend Deathloop if you haven't played it. It's not as good as Dishonored or Prey but is still worth playing in my opinion.
@@kaldini I will definitely check out prey as soon as I have the mind for it. Redfall...I don't know. I hope arkane the best, but I really wish they'll do something different after that.
If you look in your room in the mission after you sleep dart the weepers in the basement, Piero leaves a note saying thank you, because he is now going to use them as test subjects. I don't really think that disputes what you said but I thought I'd mention it. They don't just get left down there or killed if you don't kill them.
Yeah honestly in spite of finishing the game a couple times, finishing their other games, and even watching dozens of essays on the game, I only found out about this and about the music thing.
I disagree with a lot in this video lol, but I do agree that some non lethal options couldve been high chaos, sokolovs house is cool but completely skippable, and sokolov is as bad as the others and coudvle been a target after being interrogated (atltho they probably want him for their gain), the lady boyle non leathal (which arkane said was in poor taste) and that she isnt that bad for her to be killed AndI do like your idea of posessing ppl in lady boyle mansion and acting as them, and that chaos couldve been used more effectively (altho I feel then there would be a few bigger things that change, rather than every level having something minor) But if I may give a critique back, I feel a lot of these points end up being nitpicking, well outside of range of what the studio couldve done*, or something that you personally like more, but someone else would not, so its a point of whose choice matters more * eg boyle mansion compared to hitman, in D2 time travel is only 1 mechanic, honestly not too hard to implement I dont think, whereas for hitman style gameplay its the choice that matters, along side multiple mechanics/stories, which is harder to impletment than 1 really cool mechanic All in all I did enjoy the video, cuz I had to look at dishonored under someone elses perspective and see why and how I personally like it
Thanks for watching! I appreciate it. And thanks for the feedback. I think specifically for the Lady Boyle/Hitman comparison I tried to use it more as a show of how basic the mechanics are in the Lady Boyle mission and how if Arkane had deepened them just a bit, it could've been even better (I prefer Dishonored to Hitman myself but giving credit to that series for something it does better). The comparison to the D2 time travel was to merely reinforce this: show that all Arkane needed would've been one special mechanic for the party level that was unique, similar to the time piece. This could've been possessing targets for more hidden interactions between the guests or more in-mansion methods of killing the target to make it look like an accident. Or something else entirely. Just a way of increasing what is ultimately a pretty shallow experience after the original playthrough of the level. Your thoughts on the chaos changes are also likely correct. I imagine we would've gotten less bigger changes instead of more smaller ones. For me personally, I think I would take this as the smaller ones they did were often insignificant. Also please know that despite my critique, this game (and series) is one of my all time favorites! I know I say it at the beginning of the video but after three hours of criticisms it can be easily forgotten. This series is likely only beaten by the Zelda series for me as my all time favorite.
Damn dude. I have never met or seen another person who fails to understand almost ALL of the core tenants of a work of art who is confident enough to go on record for 3 hours and be mostly incorrect about the subject matter. Great job. 10/10. You're a clown lol.
@@kaldiniThat being said, even though Dishonored isn't your game, and you clearly only have an approximately 60% complete understanding of its themes: "Of Mice and Murder" is an incredible chapter/sub-title. Who'd you steal that from?
Thankfully Arkane realized the problem with Timothy Brisby and even had him get his just deserts in one of the books. this information is taken from the Dishonoured Wiki [In Dishonored: The Corroded Man Waverly Boyle is revealed to be the canonical subject of Brisby's obsession. It is made public that it was him who kidnapped her in 1837 and took her to his old family estate on an island somewhere. A few years later, on a journey to Gristol, he disappeared, never getting off of the boat he got on. Waverly then took charge of his estate, and his fortune]
Dude I just realised you have just 454 subs. That's criminal for the quality of your video. This thing had to take ages to scriot, record and edit. I hope you'll get tens of thousands of subs and make an even longer Dishonored 2 video
3 hours of actually quality video and comentation, no Idea how you can only have 71 subs. Like you were probably working on this video for months Bravo
Haha about 6 months. I enjoyed the process - it's been cool to see how much I've improved in making these videos since my very first one (which is awful). Thanks for watching!
Loved your video and the commitment to nuance! I personally think things like the fact that you never solve the mystery of the plague if you played high chaos and you dont get to utilize everything the game has to offer on low chaos incentivizes many playthroughs of the game but i certainly get why those things are frustrating
Thank you! This game is about exploring from multiple angles. I mean, I discovered new content when I decided to to a playthrough where I stayed on street level for most of the game!
You can play a lethal stealth run and still get low chaos though... Dishonored 2 limited the chaos system by making it that you had to be nonlethal to keep chaos low
Great game. Lots of technical issues, such as counterintuitive controls. Examples being when you try to drag a person after choking them out. You can only walk backwards continuously because anytime you stop walking backwards you drop them and you can’t walk forwards or sideways with them. It’s very clunky. The game has lots of these issues with controls
48:55 I'm pretty sure in Corvo's room Piero leaves you a note and a reward thanking you for acquiring live Weepers for him to send to his colleagues for research.
100%! I totally forgot that when writing the script and missed it on my pre-watch before uploading. Still would've liked a bit more explanation of the how the transport worked, but that's even further a nitpick at that point. Thanks for mentioning it!
Dishonored was & still is the shit. I played through it too many times to count. I knew during my first experience this was something special. Really enjoyed the Doud expansions, as well. Love this game. Great video
I can say for certainty this is high quality content and it's a shame there's barely any comments or views on this, and it feels strange to be the 4th person commenting on this video. May the Algorithm send this video around.
Big fan of the game, so it was fun making the video! As long as other fans found it thoughtful and an overall positive watch, that's about all I can ask for. Thanks for commenting!
I love this video. Not everything I agree with, but I still enjoyed watching this critique over the last two days. It's well put together and I liked the calm tone as you go over each point. You should probably bait your videos a little bit more I think. I read Plagued with Problems in recommended and thought this was gonna be a 3 hour hate session and left it until I watched other Dishonored commentaries on YT, but you do give a lot of valid criticism and you still enjoy the game. You mention at the end the power of the fairytale vibe combined with the art style and I think the video could've done with a bit more praise with what the game does do well. I think there's room to compliment the game even if you have a lengthy list of gripes with it. Not saying you didn't give the game any credit, but it would probably be more enjoyable if the video had like a 40/60 ratio for praise/criticism respectively rather than the 20/80 I feel it has now. That's just my experience anyway. In any case, can't wait for the DS2 video as I'm also in a Dishonored mindset lately!
Thanks for watching! And thanks for the feedback - I do worry that I come across more negative then I actually am. Dishonored as a whole is probably my favorite series, second to maybe only Zelda. If you haven't started it yet, I also have a video on the Daud DLCs on my channel as well!
I'm currently about a third of the way through the script for the Daud DLC which will be the next video. Afterwards I'll start scripting the video for the second game but I'm going to try and release a smaller non-dishonored video in-between, so the second game might be a little ways off still. If you're interested I have a couple other critiques on my channel - one for the new Ratchet and Clank game as well as one on Red Dead Redemption 2. Thanks for watching this video, I really appreciate it!
@@kaldini awesome to hear. First saw your post about this video on the dishonored subreddit. Honestly the best in depth review i've watched/heard about dishonored 1. Keep it up!
You had 123 subscribers and I love that . Though I hate to tarnish the 123 meme or, whatever, you now have 124 subscribers. Keep up the good work my dude.
It's a shame that not only does the chaos system force you into a stealth playthrough, but it forces you into a nonlethal one. Meaning that your entire run will consist of choking guards out, and when thing get a bit hairy, you can rely on your sleeping darts. I rarely felt like I need to do something creative since sleep darts were a silver bullet solution to everything (That and most of the creative/satisfying ways to deal with enemies were lethal anyway). I really think I would have had more fun with the game is sleep darts weren't as good as they are. While I like the idea of having a tool to sleep someone who's otherwise to hard to choke out, they were way too good at taking out enemies both quickly and soundless. If you wait till the right moment you can take out a group of 3 guard fairly easily from a distance without having to put yourself in any danger (and that's not including _bend time_). While the developers already went a step in the right direction in the sequel by lowering the sleep dart capacity to 5, They really nailed in _death of the outsider_ where they made it so that enemies hit by an electric dart scream when they're hit. Now they're good for dealing with a lone enemy (or the last one in a group) but no longer can you take out entire groups of them.
Agreed. I think an alternative solution could've been to remove the combat sleep dart upgrade which makes them instant. Having it be about 3-5 seconds before they collapse would make timing and understanding enemy routes more important because you would have to plan for where they would be 5 seconds from now and if you could move the body or other guards by then in order to avoid detection.
After watching this whole thing, I pretty much agree with everything. The chaos system does make sense in the story though. Every guard, overseer, noble, and overseer is still our citizens. I think you should have included that, but the Empress rebuked the spy master at the very start saying she wanted to save everyone of her citizens. The guards don't know any better. They think you killed the Empress and are a traitor. Of course they are going to attack you. By murdering your own citizens, it doesn't really matter if you killed the Empress or not, because you are violating her belief structure. In most games, the enemies are enemies of a foreign power, a terrorist group, or something that justifies killing them. In this case, corvo has no justification for killing anyone because these aren't random baddies. From a roleplay perspective, non lethal ghost is the only playthrough you should be doing really. However, that makes it much worse that the game throws so many gadgets and powers meant for killing and so many resources that I have completely full. I do agree that calling it a high chaos vs low chaos is a bit of a misnomer. It makes me wish they went all in on stealth instead of doing both. I did like a lot of your suggestions for making the chaos system matter more.
@@ShadeofGaz Agreed. I wish they had been able to expand the last part of the game with missions to kill Martin and then Pendleton separately but I also like the altered states of the final mission a lot.
Aside from the fact that its supposed to be the "good" option I actually like the low chaos outcome to the lady boyle mission. The fact that so many people are completely repulsed that its even an option shows that Arkane succeeded in portraying the games world as being dark, depraved and all around corrupt.
Funny enough I used the steam trick to get the achievement and then had to give Slackjaw the code before he asked for it for the art of the steal achievement. Because I did this, the pendleton twins were actually neutralized and not killed even though I killed both of them with the steam. Trevor thanked me for not killing them but I guess they came back to life to work in the mines.
@@kaldini So I tried to replicate it and it didn't work so it must've been a glitch or something. However, Slackjaw does mention that he appreciates the combination even if you do kill the twins. Weird. Also I do have a question about bodies disappearing, most of the time I knock someone out and then when I come back the body is gone. Is this normal?
@@milliuhn I believe it happens when there's too many unconscious bodies in a zone, some of them disappear in order to help the game run or something technical (don't quote me). It shouldn't impact any mission stats.
awesome video! one small note at 2:46:00; on low chaos the drawing you find in corvo's room is a picture of corvo with daddy written on it, so she does know already. it is weird that it's not so explicit, though.
The thing with chaos is you only need to keep I think 80% of the enemy's you encounter alive so you can do a mixed playthrough including killing all targets
I watched the whole thing! Love all of your suggestions to make the game better and agree with how flawed the Chaos system is. They should consult you for the next game 😂❤
Coming back to this video to bring up Lady Boyle's Last Party and the fact that Anthony Huso is the main level designer of that one in particular. He is the creator of a Thief: The Dark Project fan mission back in 2000, Calendra's Cistern, and a lot of it takes its cues from there. Including the part of signing the guest book, it being a party and that the main organizer is a woman who sleeps around, I guess. I wonder if its horrific "nonlethal" outcome is just really awkwardly trying to keep that awful early 2000s writing (and treatment of women, it's complete with a girlfriend for Garrett with big polygonal Lara Crofts and them bedding at the end and many strange custom texture artpieces) and tie it to Dishonored's thematic nonlethal punishments. That's about as much explanation I can really give for the mission. *Saw his books, too, and they're... really bad...
@@ellisleft4dead249 the bones of the mission are actually really cool - a masked party is actually a really neat idea. The execution (imo) is just a little off. Interesting info about Anthony Huso though. Thanks for sharing!
I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the game, I even did the no kill, no detection run. I could be remembering wrong, but I I'm not sure if it counted to knock out an enemy then place them where the rats can eat them. That could have also been the kill everyone run though.
Something that really struck a nerve with me about the chaos system when I first played the game is that it doesn't matter what type of enemy you kill. I remember being very confused after killing a bunch of the assassins in the Flooded District that my chaos increased. I remember thinking "how does removing a bunch of paid killers from the world make it a worse place?" I get why ventilating a bunch of watchmen might not be a good idea, since flawed as they are, Dunwall still presumably needs some sort of police or public security force, but that killing assassins or witches (two groups that I think are more black than gray morally) counts just the same as killing the Watch or Overseers reminds me of the joke about Batman's "kill a killer" line: what if I kill more than one killer? Then we're in the positive.
Haven't watched yet, because I don't currently have 3 hours, but here's my up front opinion. I think the game plays well if you treat it as an open world driven story, rather than a sandbox. It gives you the implied freedom of a game like Skyrim with the structure of a Telltales game like the walking dead. There's plenty of room to be creative in your approach, but at the end of the day, the game is designed for you to follow a some train of logic. It trusts you to read hints and clues from your environment to discover that path, but you do need to follow them to get the most out of the game. In the end, the game asks for your cooperation, and to suspend your disbelief just a little bit. If you're willing to let it tell it's story, and if you'll make an effort to think like the characters might, it will reward you, and the game will be much more enjoyable than treating it as an open sandbox slasher.
People forget that you CAN kill people and still keep low chaos, it just means you cant kill everyone because duh, theres consequences to that. People who complain about how difficult the game gets after killing everything that moves dont want to accept that their actions do matter in the world as a whole. Yeah, you do get achievments for not killing anyone because its EASY to kill everything in your way, you have to actively make the choice to not be just a murderer. Some of the non-lethal options require you to seek out other people and actually work for it. Of course, you're not gonna be rewarded for being a murder hobo, its the easy way out, you dont get a participation trophy for doing the same thing you do in every game ever. You can go to literally any other game and do that. Non-lethal options and complete stealth wasnt even including when development first started, it was an afterthought. The game wasnt made to be complete stealth at the beginning, it was a bonus.
I personally don't think people forgot that that they can kill people, it's that the game strongly encouraged choosing a gameplay style and then sticking to it. Then on top of that there are only consequences for playing in high chaos.
I much prefer the first game over the second. I like the art style more than the second, I think the characters we meet are more memorable, and Corvo’s mask is scarier in the first one
I agree - it just has a quality or atmosphere that the second doesn't. Although I think the level design in the sequel is far greater in almost every regard
Funny thing is there's no reason to explore the Clockwork Mansion either. First time I played it I immediately found a path behind the walls that led straight to Jindosh with the only obstacles being two guards and one wall of light.
to be fair, it makes alot of sense for the high chaos to be the "bad" ending of the game. you have to remember, Corvo is NOT a murderer, he is simply the former empresses bodyguard. Sure, you CAN go ahead and kill everyone you come across feeling as though you've been betrayed by your country, but at the end of the game, this leads to Dunwall collapsing from the plague and corruption created by Corvo's rampage the people feeling they've been betrayed by their country for putting Corvo in an area of power. HOWEVER if you choose to go low chaos you get the better ending of the game where the plague is cured by Sokolov and Pierro and Emily sits on the throne as a ruler and not a figure head. The people feeling as though they were betrayed by the regent and not Corvo himself. Corvo is a citizen of Dunwall with exceptional swordsmanship and marksmanship at the end of the day, the chaos system follows the main narrative in the way of tying your streaks of blood and death to the ending of the game. It's a very nice concept although I do have to agree that it IS limiting severely on how players can and will play the game.
Intro: (0:00)
Part 1 - Of Mice and Murder: (8:52)
Part 2 - All the Regent's Men: (27:52)
Part 2.1 - High Overseer Campbell: (29:28)
Part 2.2 - Morgan & Custis Pendleton: (50:00)
Part 2.3 - Anton Sokolov: (1:11:24)
Part 2.4 - Lady Boyle: (1:23:40)
Part 2.5 - Lord Regent Hiram Burrows: (1:39:48)
Part 3 - The Difference Between Treason and Patriotism: (1:54:23)
Part 3.1 - Daud the Assassin: (2:01:52)
Part 3.2 - The Loyalists: (2:22:37)
Part 4 - A Knife in the Dark: (2:47:30)
I think it's interesting how you find permanently scarring someone and leaving them to become infected with the plague and lose their humanity, is not too far, having the pendleton twins sold into slavery, and that's not even mentioning the truly excessive and grotesque execution animations, but having Lady Boyle delivered to her creepy stalker for a similar fate is the point where it becomes truly morally objectionable.
However, other than that, your alternative suggestions and critiques are well thought out, and interesting alternatives! Worth the time spent watching :)
@@AlyssMa7rin I personally looked at whether the nonlethal solution "fits" the supposed crime. Both the high overseerer and the pendleton twins' fate fit more or less their crimes, particularly with the high overseerer. Lady Boyle's does not though based on the information we receive. It is purely shock value and has no relation to her involvement (her funding the Lord Regent). It's thoughtless and doesn't even fit with what the concept of the non-lethals are supposed to be. People focus on the "fate worse than death" but not the "poetic justice that fits the crime" part. I believe if more people critically looked at it through that lens they would see that. Instead, because it's associated with many people's favorite level it frequently gets a pass.
It's also disappointing in my opinion that in a 3 hour video filled with contentious points, many people are most upset with the fact that I think being an accessory to kidnap, r*pe, and emotional/mental violence (as implied by the Outsider) shouldn't have been in the game.
@@kaldini That's what Lady Boyle herself was, though. She was perpetuating the tyrannical state of the Lord Regent with her funding, and her approval by action. The Lord Regent does far worse to Dunwall, and without her it could be argued that his whole state falls apart, as he'd need to seize funding from the nobility, and thus alienate them.
Plus, I'd point out that your disagreement with Boyle's fate also is a detail that doesn't strike people as outrageous due to the time period the game is set in. This is the time period where Marriage without assent was almost more common than marriage with it. By our standards today it's morally outrageous, but then so is submission to a totalitarian dictator like the Lord Regent, or even the Empress herself who ruled with (presumably) absolute authority, benevolent as she was.
Edit: Also, another point I'd like to point out regarding Daud. I believe he put Corvo in that box, and left his weapons unprotected, was because he /wanted/ Corvo to attack him, and kill him. He's wracked by guilt, and seemingly a broken man. If he dies, then he gets the justice he believes, if he lives, he either proves his old ideology right by killing Corvo, or has a new perspective granted by being spared.
Come across a three hour Dishonored analysis/critique is like finding a fifty dollar bill on the ground on your daily walk. I am stupid excited for this dude.
Right?
On low chaos Emily makes a drawing of Corvo titled "Daddy", and there's a hidden room in Dunwall Tower where the empress tells Emily to be careful with her secret. So yeah, she knows. It is addressed.
It was obvious by just those 2 details, and I came to the conslusion by myself during one of my first runs of the game, so late 2012 (the hidden room is easy to find with dark vision), then in the 2nd game, it was blatantly said from the start.
About the drawing, I did a high chaos run last week (but only killing hostiles) and still got the drawing.
@@Jean-Denis_R_R_Loret the drawing she does on high chaos is the mask i believe and the low chaos one is corvos actual face
@@thejirenplayerofalltime8981 It's true for the drawing on the wall, but not for the drawing she leaves on the desk behing Corvo's bed.
And my memory is fresh, I did a run on the game last week, that gave me this exact configuration. (Yes I got the mask drawing on the wall, because I did a high chaos run, but I also got the "daddy" drawing on the little desk).
I basically did a run with few civilian casualties, and choosing non-lethal for the main targets (even Daud or the lord regent) except for Pendleton brothers and Lady Boyle, I decapitated one of the brother and exploded the other one with a greanade. I killed the only real lady Boyle and kept her sisters alive.
Never found the secret room before! Going on a nonlethal play through now and I’ll definitely have to check it
One my favorite things about the hidden room, is that, should you look for it in Dishonored 2, there's a path straight to Delilah, through the secret path you escape from in the beginning of the game, which is extremely useful.
For the nonlethal option on the weepers - if you take them out nonlethally, you get a note form Piero in your room thanking you for not killing them, as it'll help his research.
For the lack of choice you mention in part 2, you mention that poisoning the distillery has no effect - it does actually cause a Weeper outbreak once you turn in the safe code to Slackjaw, and they'll fight the thugs, so you need to either sneak past them or wait for the thugs to kill them. There'll also be weepers in the reserve room, making it harder to access the supplies inside.
@@rorysmistakes I think my points still stand. For the note from Piero, it still doesn't answer the base question of what happens to those Weepers. Sure it'll help Piero but does that mean he killed them? Did he keep them caged up to study? If it's the former than it just moves the goal posts because Piero kills them instead of us. If it's the later I think this could've actually been a really cool thing for us to *see* in his lab or somewhere at the Pits. It would've actually indicated some small significance to the choice.
For the second point on the poisoned distillery, I think I would hesitate to call it a "outbreak" when the 3-4 Weepers run into the distillery to attack the thugs. In my footage you can actually see this encounter happening and it makes no significant impact on the scenario - the Weepers actually kill the thugs in my footage. I wouldn't consider this meaningful in any regard, and it is the same window dressing of the Weepers under the bridge near Granny's hideout - addition of enemies to make it look like things have changed when really it plays out very similar regardless of your choice.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comment too.
Just finished the video (or close to it - there's about ten minutes left). This is a great critique that encapsulates a lot of my issues with a game that I otherwise really adore. Ever since picking up Prey and playing through that I've gained a fascination with Arkane, and playing through Dishonored 1 and 2 has only made me appreciate the devs more. Do you have a twitter/twitch or any other socials I can follow? You clearly put a lot of effort into your content, and I'd love to follow you elsewhere, you deserve much, much more in the way of attention than you have (only 50 subs???)
@@kaldini It would totally have been awesome to see Piero's lab for the Weepers. Would've been cool to paint him as a foil to Sokolov in how he treats his patients, to be honest - him treating Weepers with more respect than Sokolov treats infected, but sane victims would be cool - maybe that could even change depending on the chaos you're in.
As for the weeper outbreak, I do think that it should've been more noticeable, but it was something that I realized was a direct consequence of my actions when I played through the game. It would've been an awesome setpiece to see these thugs having to keep a defensible position versus a horde of Weepers, but I suppose that's probably a bit too far of a scope for a one-off thing.
@@rorysmistakes Appreciate the feedback! This is currently my own social media I have as I'm just kind of working on videos when I have time on the side. I don't think I could be consistent enough for twitter or anything haha. Maybe one day in the future though!
14:17 - Of course, Hiram Burrows sent him away because having the bodyguard there is a bad idea when you're planning an assassination. But the Empress agrees to it because Corvo has a special designation. He's a gift from Serkonos, a powerful warrior sent to aid the Empress. I think the idea was that Corvo would have an edge when trying to ask the Serkonans for help. Plus, him being an important person in the court and well being of the ruler shows how serious they are about the situation.
15:35 to be fair, when you meet the spymaster he says you were supposed to get back two days later, after the assassination. What I assume happened wasn’t so much a plan as just trying to improvise with an unexpected variable, which you also see when right after being accused the spymaster looks around as if on edge to make sure no one saw what happened actually and can contradict him
There's also a note that confirms this iirc.
@@dudeist_priest Also also, when Corvo is tortured in the opening cutscene of the "Escape from Prison" mission, the spymaster tells him that he was at the wrong place at the right time. So, yes, the assassination was partly improvised and went actually better than planned as the traitors now had Corvo to blame, and not Daud.
EDIT: I wonder what was the initial assassination plan before Corvo arrived two days earlier. Is it detailed in the game? Perhaps, Daud kills the Empress, then the spymaster manipulates/convinces Corvo into going after Daud instead of protecting Emily. Probably, the spymaster hoped Daud and his assassins would kill Corvo as well. Or Daud dies. Or both. I think he had contingency plans for all three outcomes. Emily becomes ruler and would be influenced by the spymaster, granting him escalating powers and so on until he would size all the power, leaving Emily as empress only in name.
Yeah, in the Royal Spymaster's safe with the audiograph there's a note from Daud saying the cost increased because Corvo wasn't supposed to be there@@dudeist_priest
I love playing on high chaos runs. It makes me feel both like I'm misbehaving and also like I'm the monster in a horror movie picking off people. Killing Samuel broke my heart, But him betraying me when I'm standing right there with a loaded gun still makes me giggle. Like, what did he think would happen? Also the world is atmospheric and deep without being annoying with it's worldbuilding. There's no eager academic explaining the uses of whale oil for you, you just infer it from the technology around you. I consider it a flawless game but I'm happy to hear anyone talk about it.
Did he tho? Did he really betray us, or did WE betray him.
His trust and faith in us, didn't we betray that? As we "forced" him to be apart of our killing rampage.
No mater how bad we did, not mater the horrible things we did to others, to the world.
He still believed we were the lesser of two evils. Or maybe he just has a stander of seeing things through to the end, no mater what.
And, even if you don't kill him, he dies later. As he setts out to the middle of the sea, pushed by his guilt over helping us, and drowned by the horrors he helped us committee.
Maybe? I mean what the hell do I really know xD I semi "can't" believe people killed Sam, his disappointment and rage at me in the end broke my fucking heart. I, just apologized to him as he drove off.. :/
And yeah, in high chaos we are truly the kind of monster that goes down in legends and is remembered in one way or a other :p
he alerted guards. He wanted you dead even at a cost of his life
I believe that high chaos is how game is meant to be played. Low chaos is for story purposes and it makes us feel good about beeing Goody two shoes, but ultimately we all know what's really fun
@@TrigonAZRikr I don’t like being punished because I like to have fun. Which the game is extremely fun when playing High chaos
you know, while low chaos does have a better ending, i didn't feel like high chaos was a "bad" ending. however, the THOUGHT that it would give a bad ending for playing the fun way is quite a deterrent and is bad.
49:10 Pierro will leave a letter and a few sleepdarts in your room, thanking you for the live specimens and ensuring you that this contribution to the cure will not be wasted.
1:02:10 Those are all triggered by you poisioning the brew or not, branding the high overseer or not. ...while those tipically go hand in hand, its not technically tied to low or high chaos. If you did not poision the elixir there will be no weepers in bottlestreet.
2:07:30 This is again, a missunderstanding of the games triggers. There is a lot more variety than you assume, and these events exist in all kinds of combinations
Now I feel so bad for not having spared the weepers. It was so short sighted of me to not at least spare one, given we have a scientist in our group.
Ah, the Lord Regent's big brained plan to deal with Dunwall's poor was effectively the same as the Dead Kennedys song
Dude the idea of the Golden Cat being Weeper-infested if you poison the Bottlestreet supply is genius.
When I first played dishonored I was too impatient and would screw everything up. After watching this I realize I wasn't utilizing the creative opportunities give to me by the developers. Makes me wanna whip out the ps4 and try again. Thanks Kaldini, you're the best!
Appreciate you watching the video!
What do you mean, first?
You don't have 50+ hours of playing it like "everyone" els?? :O :O
You poor soul! You missed out on so much fun!
To answer the question of consequence in deciding whether to spare or kill the weepers (49:01) there is a dialogue with Piero who thanks Corvo for leaving him live specimens to test his plague elixirs. This is a great critique so far of a game I so dearly love and I'm enjoying it highly so far. Very nice!
I had no idea you could battle and then spare Daud, the game tells you the nonlethal route is to grab his stuff and get out so that's just what I did. Thank you for showcasing his speech here instead of glossing over it, some essayists would just assume familiarity with details like that and it makes your points land stronger presenting the proper context!
For sure - it's a cool speech.
Thanks for watching!
Oh man, the throwaway line near the last minute about not being able to plan a build because of the randomized bone charms unsealed some dormant frustration in me. In my first playthrough where I was just messing around, I got the quick-choke charm as one of the first ones in my run, but when I tried a no-power no-kill run, it took multiple missions for me to get it.
One of the best improvements made for the sequel imo
A fair point to the fight right after the empress is killed, only to tell you to be stealthy right after. At least for the story.
I would assume that as the empresses bodyguard this is just how Corvo would be in any fight, sword and gun blazing, but after he's imprisoned and escapes he needs to keep a low profile and be stealthy.
Only thing I would say, is there’s a lot of hate around Piero but I really like him.
I think he talks weirdly and acts weirdly because he’s supposed to be this introverted weirdo who doesn’t interact with people much. Hes a genius touched by the outsider, he doesn’t sleep because he spends his nights inventing and thinking about things. Of course he’s gonna be a bit of a creep. He’s not written to be a morally good guy, he’s a pervert, probably because he never interacted with women much, which makes his attempts at flirting with Callista really amusing because he has no clue what to say. Piero has the crime of being a creepy perv, but I find him remarkably human.
Compared with Sokolov who is supposed to be a literal psychopath, he locks people in cages to experiment on them. He develops military technology and refuses help to work on the plague elixir because he wants the glory. There are rumours you can over hear of Sokolov constantly using prostitutes and being morally bankrupt. He is responsible for removing Piero from college because he grows so quickly it scares him. The series seems to forget this about Sokolov in the second game and death of the outsider. He is treated like a hero while Piero is forgotten, probably because Arkane thought he wasn’t as popular
Despite the bad blood between the two, Sokolov and Piero develop each other when they are in contact. Sokolov regrets his actions and accepts help from Piero, they both go on to create the plague elixir collaboratively in the prologue.
Also if you knock out the weepers, you get a note next to your bed from Piero that he’s going to use them as test subjects for a plague cure
Tbh I find the low chaos dialogue beetween the oversire with the plague beautiful
I understand your point about the chaos system, and while I agree that it's not perfect, I don't entirely see it the same way you do. High chaos and low chaos does NOT necessarily mean lethal vs non-lethal. High chaos is not essentially about how wrong killing somebody is, it's about excessive use of violence to achieve your goals, it's about killing too much. You can choose the lethal approach on every target and still remain low chaos because you chose to spare all the random guards in your way by knocking them out or stealthily avoiding them. You can also choose the non-lethal approach on every target and still go high chaos if you're making piles of bodies along the way. So the game is basically saying to you: Killing is fine if you think it's the way to go about it, but if you go too far and indulge in a bloody rampage during every mission then expect consequences. Yeah, maybe some of those targets do deserve to die or are better off dead, but murdering dozens of random guards just because you feel like it is obviously going to bring more chaos to the world. You're making wives widows and children orphans everytime you viciously stick your blade into some poor city watch guy's throat instead of just choking him out or shooting a sleeping dart at him. Anyway, just my 2 cents on the subject. Great video btw. You've earned a sub.
I was looking for this comment!
Man I'm glad I was recommended this video
I love listening to lenghty video game critiques, and I really liked Dishonored when I played it through last summer
You've actually made me want to reinstall Dishonored and replay it
Great job, I hope this gets recommended to more people
Haha, I just finished my first run, full chaos, not sparing anyone, and started a full ghost non lethal run, i love the game, and it sure has my 1st place medal
A pretty in depth video. I always appreciate when people enthusiastically describe their love for a game while still being willing to listen to criticism of it and acknowledge the game's objective faults. And as someone greatly interested in RPGs and choice in games your section about the Chaos system was quite good
Thanks for watching! I'm currently working on the follow up video focused on the Daud DLCs. A large part of that video is discussing the Slaughterhouse and Draper's Ward levels, both of which feature the most complex choices in the series, in my opinion.
The Slackjaw deal has never made sense to me for such a high stakes endeavor. Here is a list of some of the many points of failure:
1. Engaging with Slackjaw at all is a huge risk to Corvo because of the bounty on his head. He could be walking into an ambush.
2. Trusting Slackjaw on his word alone is a hell of a leap of faith when Emily's seat on the throne is on the line. Killing the twins when you have the chance is the obvious move instead of hoping and praying someone else will do it for you.
3. Slackjaw might actually do what he said he would, but fail in the attempt. The Pendleton twins would go into hiding and the Loyalists would never get a second chance to secure the needed parliamentary votes for Emily.
4. The game has a cartoonish quirk where it lets you betray Slackjaw and rob the safe before he can get to it, but he still decides to help you anyway. Oh yeah, that's totally how people think, especially heads of criminal organizations. "Well, the deal was technically for the code to the safe, not the contents therein." I'm sure Slackjaw would see it that way and definitely not hold a grudge.
There should have been a cutscene where Havelock chews you out for being a dumbass if you try the non-lethal option, then an awkward silent boat ride with Samuel as you go back to the mission area to actually complete it. It's what would really happen given the context of the game's events.
I don't have to worry about that, because after Slackjaw gives me a key to the neighboring buiding that allows me to infiltrate the Golden Cat more easily, I simply release the weepers on his men, and stab him like a pig.
Sorry, not sorry Pendleton. I'm not gonna work with criminals. The rune and the Pendletons belong to me and my blade. And the streets of Dunwall, once the plague is gone, will be safer with one less gang in the world.
Slackjjaw asked the code to the safe, he never stated anything about its content. Huge, HUGE mistake from Slackjaw, you NEVER leave a gray zone for this kind of deal 😂
What would do Slackjaw after that ? He already couldn't do anything against granny rag and ended miserably at her mercy, who wasn't even a trainned "professional" in the 1st place, so his life expectancy against Corvo, with henchmen on his side or not, would be in the stop-time range. That shows up the difference between the marked by the outsider, and the common thug: the commoner stands zero chances (even a Predator's Yautja would not stand a chance 1v1: stop-time, springrazor, done), and that's the point of the whole series.
If you steal the stuff in the safe Slackjaw Will mention It during the confrontation with Granny Riggs
He Will Say something like "you tricked but please save my ass"
@@Ale-dd3ek Good observation. That also necessarily means that he voluntarily decided to risk the lives of his men and go through with his plan to help you deal with the twins even after he realized you betrayed him.
Either that, or he opted to try robbing the safe only after that, which doesn't make sense to me either. That would mean passing up the art dealer's house on the way there and ignoring it long enough that the dealer may have come home by the time he wanted to finally get to the safe. We can headcanon Slackjaw as being kind of stupid, but that is less satisfying than having a narrative with characters who are competent and acting in a believable way.
apologies for the 1 yr late comment but i adore this video! just found it and in particular what stands out to me is how detailed, thoughtout and multifaceted your suggestions are, even if you acknowledge that they could be unrealistic; i can really feel how much you love this game and how charmed you are by the world-building and story, which as someone who agrees i can really appreciate. your ideas are also just very interesting and good brain food to chew on. thank you so much for sharing ^_^
Love this video and am so ready to listen to it during work tomorrow.
I agree; Dishonored should be talked about more. It deserves more retrospectives and dissection video essays.
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@kaldini I did! Thank you for making it! 🙌🏻
I appreciate the editing trick when you blink in one location and then jump into some other footage. You blink into another level :D
Dishonored is my favourite game series, from gameplay to design. Just the detail the artists went into engineering the lights and stuff for example blows my mind.
Also, this came up on my algorithm recommendation.
Imagine a switch port of this. A good one. Goodness me.
Beautiful content. Commenting to feed the algorithm. This is Joseph Anderson level content. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! Dishonored is a special game series for me too.
And thank you for the Joseph Anderson comparison - that is probably the highest compliment I could hope for, as he was my original inspiration to begin making my own videos.
*dishonored*
@johnwerner6445 thanks king.
This was an excellent video! Despite the length it's still very well structured and easy to follow. You deserve way more subs.
this video is incredibly underrated! i've only recently played the dishonored games and while i love them you were able to voice a lot of the similar criticisms i personally had while playing very well!
i love long video essays about my interests and this hit all the right spots, it was really well put together!!! :)
i really hope you'll talk more about these games!!
Thank you so much for the compliment! It's appreciated
Chances are very good.
Ive sunk HOURS of my life into Dishonored 1, it was one of my fave games of all time... played it to death now. Great vid!
I played this game not long after release and then replayed it about a dozen times. Having replayed it again recently, this video really opened my eyes, I never noticed a lot of things, especially with the plot. This video is extremely well done!
Severely underrated video, I might not have agreed with all of your points, but they always come across as being thoughtful and your insight on the game made the video a breeze to get through. After I’ve finished watching it, I can say I appreciate the game even more now. I’d like to see what you have to say on the expansion for the first game. You’ve earned a new subscriber.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
one of the best videos i've seen on dishonored, and i thoroughly enjoyed all the title sections
Damn you articulated my thoughts on the chaos system perfectly
I cannot wait for your Dishonored 2 review. This is easily the best review of Dishonored on all of YT. You're insightful and you aren't afraid to be critical while also offering alternatives. Keep up the good work
I've always loved Prey's solution to the concept of a "chaos system". In Prey the ending is based on how you treated people and your interactions with the survivors on Talos 1. It's not about how many hostiles you kill, like it is in Dishonored. I wish the Dishonored chaos system had a greater focus on how you treat civilians rather than hostiles. We've seen interactions in the games where you can stop civilians from being executed, or give money to a homeless man. I think the games being peppered with more of these interactions and having those contribute to chaos rather than just lethality to enemies would've been better
I think this comes down to the fact that gamers can pretty easily conceptualize the difference between characters the game labels as enemies vs civilians/allies. If I went through a level mowing down civilians and the game spat out a bad ending I would understand that. But when I go through using these powerful systems and tools that the game gives me and it punishes me for that in the narrative it just feels bad
Very well said. I also like that Prey had this additional system of how much Typhon material you had injected. It came with the cost of turrets registering you as an enemy *but* you had ways around that through hacking. Consequences for your actions while offering ways around even though consequences. It was excellent.
I’m pretty sure many of those incidents do actually contribute to chaos! Like being nice and helping lowers your chaos level. For example, in one of the games when you prevent a guy from being pushed into a wall of light, it lowers your chaos a bit as well as freeing Sokolov’s prisoners in dishonored 1. I could be wrong tho. Anyway, I do still agree that civilian interactions would’ve been amazing and a more concrete way of lowering chaos and worldbuilding.
Using the heart on the civilians really serves to highlight how horrid most of these people are. From child abusers, murderers, to petty thieves, there aren't many "good" citizens around
It’s almost like most of the enemies you face in dishonored aren’t inherently evil lol
Great video dude! I've played the whole series a few times over and its a favorite for sure, but I always enjoy a new perspective on it
Thanks for watching, I appreciate it! Dishonored is definitely a special franchise - hopefully Arkane continues with it at some point
Yeah that would be cool to see, the atmosphere these games have is so surreal, and I've yet to find another game that captures this same style!
As a big fan of Joseph Anderson, this video was such a treat to watch! You really went the extra mile with how thorough everything was and it doesn't go unnoticed! I'll definitely stick around for more, it was a really impressive critique 🙌
It *is* explained what happens to the weepers under the Hounds Pit Pub. Pierro thanks you for bringing them to him alive as it will help in developing a cure.
Damn dude, 3 hours long and you somehow manage to avoid sounding pretentious. And on top of that, I have to say you have some really good points. One of the best video essays I've seen, and I don't think that's only because this is one of my favorite games.
Thanks for the comment and the compliment, it's appreciated, especially for a small channel like mine. Any points in the video that you disagree with? I like discussing this game.
@@kaldini One point I'd put forward is this: While I agree that having the relationship between the gameplay (specifically the nonlethal/lethal actions) and the Chaos system be so rigid is not the ideal implementation, I don't know if your proposed solution, at least on its own, is quite ideal either. The real issue (as you say) is that the Chaos system is based on morality. But more specifically, just one moral: Killing=Bad. While it would make more sense to assign chaos level on a per-scenario basis (i.e., which action would logically result in more chaos) this would ultimately exert a similar restriction, or at least pressure, on the player; the low chaos outcome would still be locked behind specific choices. The only difference is that the low chaos choice (still easily equatable with the "right" choice) would be unique (and predetermined) to each situation rather than consistently being: No killing.
Again, this would make more sense, but the other side of the issue would remain. The player, or at least many players, would feel incentivized to make each choice in accordance with the game's estimation of what is less damaging, rather than their own personal feelings or opinions. These two things may diverge, after all. Now, this would still achieve what I think is the main point of the Chaos system---that being, making to the player weigh their actions--but might eventually fall into some of the same problems as the current implementation.
Something that might help would be giving the player more actions to lower chaos--in the current game, low chaos is essentially achieved through abstinence, the inhibition of certain actions. Abstinence from killing, for example. These are largely passive and can create the feeling of being snubbed by the game (so many negative reviews share the sentiment that the game tells you one thing--Look at all these ways to kill guys!--and then punishes you for using said tools) or at least of missing out. If there were specific side objectives or even side targets (corrupt slum lords, etc) readily available which had the potential to lower chaos instead of merely not raising it, the player could choose to actively lower their chaos level, giving them more freedom in how they approach the main objectives. You could even integrate this into said main objectives: Maybe you kill such-and-such, but you'll also set up a more moral successor. That way only players who truly desire a High Chaos ending would receive one. Obviously an expanded nonlethal toolkit would complement this as well, as proved by Dishonored 2. Although I've always felt the Chaos system in that game isn't quite right either, probably because expanded nonlethal options are about the only changes it makes to the complexly problematic formula.
I hope that wasn't too long! Or if it was, you at least found it bearable. Maybe I should've put a warning at the beginning...
@Gaius Fulmen I want to clarify my stance a bit: I do think the chaos system needs to be separated from morality and this would be done in two ways: the story "choices" as well as through gameplay. However I think the biggest factor in all of this is the "consequences." I'd actually argue that I'd be perfectly fine with the chaos = morality system *if* it meant that we got actual differences in levels. Different possible world states similar to what the final mission does. This would encourage replaying the game to play through these differences. Unfortunately, the game doesn't do this so it leads to this roadmap: no real differences outside of ending -> want good ending -> can't kill people -> can't use most of kit.
A good contrast to this for me is the Fallout series (specifically 3 and New Vegas). Fallout 3 uses a morality system but I played through the game multiple times to see the differences, which were often substantial. New Vegas doesn't use the morality system and unless it was overtly evil it was sometimes hard to tell what was morally right in that situation. I enjoyed New Vegas more but I don't think that makes the Fallout 3 system inherently worse. They both accomplish what they are trying to do. The chaos system is at its core a morality system, but the problem is that it's a bad one. Because Arkane didn't create enough genuine choices for players and differences to go along with them, the chaos system *had* to be tied to gameplay/players using lethality because there was no other realistic measurement for the system in-game. So by creating more choices they would be able to dial back how much your actions (i.e. playing with the toolkit) impacts your chaos levels.
For actual choices I think Arkane could've done two potential routes - one of them I detail in the video in the Sokolov section. Having more options that are morally wrong but low chaos as well as the inverse. This would at the very least have players think about what feels morally right vs what is best for Dunwall. Alternatively they could go the Witcher 3 route where for many of the choices you don't see any potential consequences until 10+ hours later, which makes it hard to save scum haha.
Your idea about ways of lowering chaos is interesting and something I want to think on a bit more. My upfront concern would be that it would end up creating the DOTO contract system where (in my opinion) it pulls focus away from what you're supposed to be doing narratively for what I considered not really meaningful side content. I agree with your take on Dishonored 2 as well - I think outside of the Dust District big choice, the game all but jettisons any attempts to provide complex choices.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I enjoyed reading it and it's given me things to consider as I begin making my next video on the Daud DLCs.
Ive always been annoyed by the chaos issue. Not because i dont like the chaos system, i actually really like it. In low chaos you go through spilling poetic justice (except for lady boyle, that ones fucked) whereas in high you go through gutting city guards and heads of state, which already would put the local government on the backfoot, but add in any extremist action inspired by the masked vigilante (like cops who flock to the punisher logo) and its gonna mess some stuff up.
All on top of the fact that Emily is seeing you do all of this, and you are setting this example for her as a parent. She watched her mom die, then got kidnapped, and then watched her dad gut everyone between the two of them and his name. Sorta sets the precedent that its kill or be killed. Then, you have this gutted guard and government placed in her screwed up hands, and viola, cycles of violence. Its a great little theme imo. Could the endings be a little less heavy handed? Maybe. But i just dont get why so many people get in such a twist over a game ending when they can just hit new game. Ive done every type of run from high to clean hands+ghost. Theyre all fun
I reference the idea you're talking about with vigilante justice during my section on the Lord Regent mission.
I also really like the chaos system, and kind of felt like DOTO wasn't true Dishonored without it. I just wish it was expanded upon in game. I think the Lord Regent's nonlethal would've actually been a perfect high chaos alternative, and taking him out as the low chaos. I mean look at the what is happening in the US political space right now to confirm this unfortunately (not saying people should be taken out, but that their misinformation and radicalization occurring).
@@kaldini I don't care if it's the low or high chaos option. Truth must be upheld. And if the government falls because of truth, then it's its own fault.
I don't watch videos that are longer than one hour but, hearing your thoughts in the first 8 minutes made me actually want to watch the whole thing. It's clear how passionate you are about the game just from listening to those first few minutes. I'll definitely try to watch it in chunks!
Really appreciate this comment - pretty much the greatest compliment I could ask for. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts once you've finished or throughout.
@@kaldini bro its 3hrs long though, couldnt you have trimmed the fat? cant possibly expect people to finish it. I watch it to go to sleep though, thats what I usually use these long videos for
@@dripfoe_3307 Lol, this is the style of video I like and so it's the style I want to make. If it's not for you, I just wouldn't click the video as you're clearly not the type of person this video is intended for. Thanks for increasing my views and minutes watched though! Especially if you did fall asleep to it! You likely got me a 3 hours of watch time :)
@@kaldini I probably did but I can't remember a thing because I was sleep. Your video cured my insomnia, thanks mayne.
@@dripfoe_3307 Watch it in bits. It isn't Kaldini's fault you don't understand that UA-cam videos stick around...
Ive watched both videos you made on dishonored. As a dishonored fan your observations were spot on! Cant wait for your dishonored2 review
Thanks for the kind words! Dishonored definitely a special series for me as well.
Happy to be your 816th sub, this is excellent content
Your content is truly High quality, please make more of these
Thanks for the compliment. The video critique of the Daud expansions is in the final stages and should be out in the next couple weeks.
Just... the rats are so overpowered that is makes fighting everyone hilariously easy. Pair it whatever build you want and it becomes a glorious cake walk as the rat lord.
Corvo "The Rat Lord" Attano, Duke of Karnacha
@@twinzzlers It always make me laugh to see Corvo as the duke during the final cutscene, keeping his mask on 😂, on a high chaos run on D2 (if you kill both Paolo and Byrne, and don't swap the duke and his decoy, indeed).
2:46:51 I think there is a drawin Emily made, which is in Corvos sleeping area, and Corvo is labeled as "daddy" or something, so I think Emily knows
Great video, thoroughly enjoyed listening to you talk about Dishonored for the full 3 hours, definately earned my subscribtion though I must say it's sad I never managed to fully get into it.
I appreciate the watch! What turned you off from the game if you don't mind me asking?
Can't get enough of Dishonored analysis.
Is the Spymaster making an oblique reference to Half-Life when torturing Corvo in the prison? Him saying to Corvo that he was "in the wrong place at the right time" is very similar to the iconic G-Man quote "the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world". Just something that occurred to me while watching this video.
this is a masterful essay on issues and thoughts i also had while still loving the game, that i couldn't gave proper words to. also, i'm so glad to see someone talking about this series again, i feel like there is a lot of interesting things that this game brought to the table, but barely anyone talk about it anymore.
Watching this really kind of made me sad there arkane seems so uninterested in making games like these again. i've yet to play pery, but still. redfall. why.
Thanks for watching! I tentatively agree on Arkane's current direction but who knows: maybe Redfall will be fantastic. Or it'll push them back towards their roots.
I highly recommend Prey since you said you haven't play it. I also recommend Deathloop if you haven't played it. It's not as good as Dishonored or Prey but is still worth playing in my opinion.
@@kaldini I will definitely check out prey as soon as I have the mind for it. Redfall...I don't know. I hope arkane the best, but I really wish they'll do something different after that.
This video is fantastic your channel is criminally underrated
Thanks for watching and for the kind words! They are appreciated
If you look in your room in the mission after you sleep dart the weepers in the basement, Piero leaves a note saying thank you, because he is now going to use them as test subjects. I don't really think that disputes what you said but I thought I'd mention it. They don't just get left down there or killed if you don't kill them.
excellent, excellent video!
eagerly looking forward to the discussions on the DLCs
Thanks for watching!
I cant get enough dishonored deepdives! Great video man!
Ngl Curnow drawing his pistol on Campbell is not something I knew could happen and looked surprisingly badass.
Yeah honestly in spite of finishing the game a couple times, finishing their other games, and even watching dozens of essays on the game, I only found out about this and about the music thing.
I disagree with a lot in this video lol, but I do agree that some non lethal options couldve been high chaos, sokolovs house is cool but completely skippable, and sokolov is as bad as the others and coudvle been a target after being interrogated (atltho they probably want him for their gain), the lady boyle non leathal (which arkane said was in poor taste) and that she isnt that bad for her to be killed
AndI do like your idea of posessing ppl in lady boyle mansion and acting as them, and that chaos couldve been used more effectively (altho I feel then there would be a few bigger things that change, rather than every level having something minor)
But if I may give a critique back, I feel a lot of these points end up being nitpicking, well outside of range of what the studio couldve done*, or something that you personally like more, but someone else would not, so its a point of whose choice matters more
* eg boyle mansion compared to hitman, in D2 time travel is only 1 mechanic, honestly not too hard to implement I dont think, whereas for hitman style gameplay its the choice that matters, along side multiple mechanics/stories, which is harder to impletment than 1 really cool mechanic
All in all I did enjoy the video, cuz I had to look at dishonored under someone elses perspective and see why and how I personally like it
Thanks for watching! I appreciate it.
And thanks for the feedback. I think specifically for the Lady Boyle/Hitman comparison I tried to use it more as a show of how basic the mechanics are in the Lady Boyle mission and how if Arkane had deepened them just a bit, it could've been even better (I prefer Dishonored to Hitman myself but giving credit to that series for something it does better). The comparison to the D2 time travel was to merely reinforce this: show that all Arkane needed would've been one special mechanic for the party level that was unique, similar to the time piece. This could've been possessing targets for more hidden interactions between the guests or more in-mansion methods of killing the target to make it look like an accident. Or something else entirely. Just a way of increasing what is ultimately a pretty shallow experience after the original playthrough of the level.
Your thoughts on the chaos changes are also likely correct. I imagine we would've gotten less bigger changes instead of more smaller ones. For me personally, I think I would take this as the smaller ones they did were often insignificant.
Also please know that despite my critique, this game (and series) is one of my all time favorites! I know I say it at the beginning of the video but after three hours of criticisms it can be easily forgotten. This series is likely only beaten by the Zelda series for me as my all time favorite.
@@kaldini I personally adore the franchise, so apologies if anything came off too strong, I know to make a 3 hour video you must love the game lol
Damn dude. I have never met or seen another person who fails to understand almost ALL of the core tenants of a work of art who is confident enough to go on record for 3 hours and be mostly incorrect about the subject matter.
Great job. 10/10. You're a clown lol.
@@tylerthompson3075 sounds like it wasn't for you, but thanks for watching anyways
@@kaldini Yeah. Seems like Dishonored isn't for you either.
@@kaldiniThat being said, even though Dishonored isn't your game, and you clearly only have an approximately 60% complete understanding of its themes: "Of Mice and Murder" is an incredible chapter/sub-title.
Who'd you steal that from?
Playing this before and after covid gave it a whole new meaning.
Thankfully Arkane realized the problem with Timothy Brisby and even had him get his just deserts in one of the books. this information is taken from the Dishonoured Wiki [In Dishonored: The Corroded Man Waverly Boyle is revealed to be the canonical subject of Brisby's obsession. It is made public that it was him who kidnapped her in 1837 and took her to his old family estate on an island somewhere. A few years later, on a journey to Gristol, he disappeared, never getting off of the boat he got on. Waverly then took charge of his estate, and his fortune]
Dude I just realised you have just 454 subs. That's criminal for the quality of your video. This thing had to take ages to scriot, record and edit. I hope you'll get tens of thousands of subs and make an even longer Dishonored 2 video
3 hours of actually quality video and comentation, no Idea how you can only have 71 subs. Like you were probably working on this video for months
Bravo
Haha about 6 months. I enjoyed the process - it's been cool to see how much I've improved in making these videos since my very first one (which is awful). Thanks for watching!
Loved your video and the commitment to nuance! I personally think things like the fact that you never solve the mystery of the plague if you played high chaos and you dont get to utilize everything the game has to offer on low chaos incentivizes many playthroughs of the game but i certainly get why those things are frustrating
Thank you! This game is about exploring from multiple angles. I mean, I discovered new content when I decided to to a playthrough where I stayed on street level for most of the game!
You can play a lethal stealth run and still get low chaos though... Dishonored 2 limited the chaos system by making it that you had to be nonlethal to keep chaos low
You're so right about kaldwins bridge but I actually love the mission and straying off the path
Great game. Lots of technical issues, such as counterintuitive controls. Examples being when you try to drag a person after choking them out. You can only walk backwards continuously because anytime you stop walking backwards you drop them and you can’t walk forwards or sideways with them. It’s very clunky. The game has lots of these issues with controls
Joseph Anderson type content is my favourite
48:55 I'm pretty sure in Corvo's room Piero leaves you a note and a reward thanking you for acquiring live Weepers for him to send to his colleagues for research.
100%! I totally forgot that when writing the script and missed it on my pre-watch before uploading. Still would've liked a bit more explanation of the how the transport worked, but that's even further a nitpick at that point. Thanks for mentioning it!
@@kaldini Tbh It's super easy to miss. I think I found it on accident, actually.
Dishonored was & still is the shit. I played through it too many times to count. I knew during my first experience this was something special. Really enjoyed the Doud expansions, as well. Love this game.
Great video
100% agree. It's one of just a few games I go back to replay every year.
I can say for certainty this is high quality content and it's a shame there's barely any comments or views on this, and it feels strange to be the 4th person commenting on this video. May the Algorithm send this video around.
Big fan of the game, so it was fun making the video! As long as other fans found it thoughtful and an overall positive watch, that's about all I can ask for. Thanks for commenting!
Indeed. I believe so.
@@kaldini Never doubt it.
Piero gives you a reward for giving him a live weeper/sleep darting them.
I love this video. Not everything I agree with, but I still enjoyed watching this critique over the last two days. It's well put together and I liked the calm tone as you go over each point.
You should probably bait your videos a little bit more I think. I read Plagued with Problems in recommended and thought this was gonna be a 3 hour hate session and left it until I watched other Dishonored commentaries on YT, but you do give a lot of valid criticism and you still enjoy the game.
You mention at the end the power of the fairytale vibe combined with the art style and I think the video could've done with a bit more praise with what the game does do well. I think there's room to compliment the game even if you have a lengthy list of gripes with it. Not saying you didn't give the game any credit, but it would probably be more enjoyable if the video had like a 40/60 ratio for praise/criticism respectively rather than the 20/80 I feel it has now. That's just my experience anyway.
In any case, can't wait for the DS2 video as I'm also in a Dishonored mindset lately!
Thanks for watching! And thanks for the feedback - I do worry that I come across more negative then I actually am. Dishonored as a whole is probably my favorite series, second to maybe only Zelda.
If you haven't started it yet, I also have a video on the Daud DLCs on my channel as well!
I can not wait till you talk about dishonored 2 and then death of the outsider.
I'm currently about a third of the way through the script for the Daud DLC which will be the next video. Afterwards I'll start scripting the video for the second game but I'm going to try and release a smaller non-dishonored video in-between, so the second game might be a little ways off still. If you're interested I have a couple other critiques on my channel - one for the new Ratchet and Clank game as well as one on Red Dead Redemption 2. Thanks for watching this video, I really appreciate it!
@@kaldini awesome to hear. First saw your post about this video on the dishonored subreddit. Honestly the best in depth review i've watched/heard about dishonored 1. Keep it up!
You had 123 subscribers and I love that . Though I hate to tarnish the 123 meme or, whatever, you now have 124 subscribers. Keep up the good work my dude.
Thanks for subscribing!
A 3hr dishonored a analysis?! LETS GOOOO
ONLY 5K VIEWS AND 100 SUBS? YOU NEED MOOORE
Hope it was worth your time!
Can’t believe you have so few subscribers, this is fantastic
Thanks for watching!
It's a shame that not only does the chaos system force you into a stealth playthrough, but it forces you into a nonlethal one.
Meaning that your entire run will consist of choking guards out, and when thing get a bit hairy, you can rely on your sleeping darts.
I rarely felt like I need to do something creative since sleep darts were a silver bullet solution to everything (That and most of the creative/satisfying ways to deal with enemies were lethal anyway).
I really think I would have had more fun with the game is sleep darts weren't as good as they are.
While I like the idea of having a tool to sleep someone who's otherwise to hard to choke out, they were way too good at taking out enemies both quickly and soundless. If you wait till the right moment you can take out a group of 3 guard fairly easily from a distance without having to put yourself in any danger (and that's not including _bend time_).
While the developers already went a step in the right direction in the sequel by lowering the sleep dart capacity to 5, They really nailed in _death of the outsider_ where they made it so that enemies hit by an electric dart scream when they're hit. Now they're good for dealing with a lone enemy (or the last one in a group) but no longer can you take out entire groups of them.
Agreed. I think an alternative solution could've been to remove the combat sleep dart upgrade which makes them instant. Having it be about 3-5 seconds before they collapse would make timing and understanding enemy routes more important because you would have to plan for where they would be 5 seconds from now and if you could move the body or other guards by then in order to avoid detection.
@@kaldiniDishonored 2 allows you to go for a loud gamestyle and still be non lethal, it improved.
You don't have to go nonlethal. You can kill up to 20 percent of the level without going high chaos.
After watching this whole thing, I pretty much agree with everything. The chaos system does make sense in the story though. Every guard, overseer, noble, and overseer is still our citizens. I think you should have included that, but the Empress rebuked the spy master at the very start saying she wanted to save everyone of her citizens. The guards don't know any better. They think you killed the Empress and are a traitor. Of course they are going to attack you. By murdering your own citizens, it doesn't really matter if you killed the Empress or not, because you are violating her belief structure. In most games, the enemies are enemies of a foreign power, a terrorist group, or something that justifies killing them. In this case, corvo has no justification for killing anyone because these aren't random baddies. From a roleplay perspective, non lethal ghost is the only playthrough you should be doing really. However, that makes it much worse that the game throws so many gadgets and powers meant for killing and so many resources that I have completely full. I do agree that calling it a high chaos vs low chaos is a bit of a misnomer. It makes me wish they went all in on stealth instead of doing both. I did like a lot of your suggestions for making the chaos system matter more.
I always loved the betrayal aspect since you thought you knew who was the enemy
@@ShadeofGaz Agreed. I wish they had been able to expand the last part of the game with missions to kill Martin and then Pendleton separately but I also like the altered states of the final mission a lot.
The finale needed something else. Something more but I'm not sure what @@kaldini
Aside from the fact that its supposed to be the "good" option I actually like the low chaos outcome to the lady boyle mission. The fact that so many people are completely repulsed that its even an option shows that Arkane succeeded in portraying the games world as being dark, depraved and all around corrupt.
Funny enough I used the steam trick to get the achievement and then had to give Slackjaw the code before he asked for it for the art of the steal achievement. Because I did this, the pendleton twins were actually neutralized and not killed even though I killed both of them with the steam. Trevor thanked me for not killing them but I guess they came back to life to work in the mines.
Whoa that's an interesting outcome. I never even thought to talk to them after handing the code over to Slackjaw. Thanks for sharing
@@kaldini So I tried to replicate it and it didn't work so it must've been a glitch or something. However, Slackjaw does mention that he appreciates the combination even if you do kill the twins. Weird. Also I do have a question about bodies disappearing, most of the time I knock someone out and then when I come back the body is gone. Is this normal?
@@milliuhn I believe it happens when there's too many unconscious bodies in a zone, some of them disappear in order to help the game run or something technical (don't quote me). It shouldn't impact any mission stats.
awesome video! one small note at 2:46:00; on low chaos the drawing you find in corvo's room is a picture of corvo with daddy written on it, so she does know already. it is weird that it's not so explicit, though.
That blink transition you did at 1:04:40 was brilliant
That Ludacris reference
Well thought out critique, you make good cases for your points 👍🏼
Thanks for taking the time to watch it and comment afterwards! Appreciate you.
The thing with chaos is you only need to keep I think 80% of the enemy's you encounter alive so you can do a mixed playthrough including killing all targets
Thank you for this. ✊💯😁👍
Thank you for watching! I really appreciate it
I watched the whole thing! Love all of your suggestions to make the game better and agree with how flawed the Chaos system is. They should consult you for the next game 😂❤
Thanks for taking the time to watch my exceptionally long video. I also have a follow up one on my channel about the Daud DLCs if you're interested!
Dishonored is a masterpiece
Coming back to this video to bring up Lady Boyle's Last Party and the fact that Anthony Huso is the main level designer of that one in particular. He is the creator of a Thief: The Dark Project fan mission back in 2000, Calendra's Cistern, and a lot of it takes its cues from there. Including the part of signing the guest book, it being a party and that the main organizer is a woman who sleeps around, I guess. I wonder if its horrific "nonlethal" outcome is just really awkwardly trying to keep that awful early 2000s writing (and treatment of women, it's complete with a girlfriend for Garrett with big polygonal Lara Crofts and them bedding at the end and many strange custom texture artpieces) and tie it to Dishonored's thematic nonlethal punishments. That's about as much explanation I can really give for the mission.
*Saw his books, too, and they're... really bad...
@@ellisleft4dead249 the bones of the mission are actually really cool - a masked party is actually a really neat idea. The execution (imo) is just a little off.
Interesting info about Anthony Huso though. Thanks for sharing!
I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the game, I even did the no kill, no detection run.
I could be remembering wrong, but I I'm not sure if it counted to knock out an enemy then place them where the rats can eat them.
That could have also been the kill everyone run though.
Something that really struck a nerve with me about the chaos system when I first played the game is that it doesn't matter what type of enemy you kill. I remember being very confused after killing a bunch of the assassins in the Flooded District that my chaos increased. I remember thinking "how does removing a bunch of paid killers from the world make it a worse place?" I get why ventilating a bunch of watchmen might not be a good idea, since flawed as they are, Dunwall still presumably needs some sort of police or public security force, but that killing assassins or witches (two groups that I think are more black than gray morally) counts just the same as killing the Watch or Overseers reminds me of the joke about Batman's "kill a killer" line: what if I kill more than one killer? Then we're in the positive.
Haven't watched yet, because I don't currently have 3 hours, but here's my up front opinion. I think the game plays well if you treat it as an open world driven story, rather than a sandbox. It gives you the implied freedom of a game like Skyrim with the structure of a Telltales game like the walking dead. There's plenty of room to be creative in your approach, but at the end of the day, the game is designed for you to follow a some train of logic. It trusts you to read hints and clues from your environment to discover that path, but you do need to follow them to get the most out of the game. In the end, the game asks for your cooperation, and to suspend your disbelief just a little bit. If you're willing to let it tell it's story, and if you'll make an effort to think like the characters might, it will reward you, and the game will be much more enjoyable than treating it as an open sandbox slasher.
My critique:
7/10 can stop time and that makes me feel cool
People forget that you CAN kill people and still keep low chaos, it just means you cant kill everyone because duh, theres consequences to that. People who complain about how difficult the game gets after killing everything that moves dont want to accept that their actions do matter in the world as a whole. Yeah, you do get achievments for not killing anyone because its EASY to kill everything in your way, you have to actively make the choice to not be just a murderer. Some of the non-lethal options require you to seek out other people and actually work for it. Of course, you're not gonna be rewarded for being a murder hobo, its the easy way out, you dont get a participation trophy for doing the same thing you do in every game ever. You can go to literally any other game and do that.
Non-lethal options and complete stealth wasnt even including when development first started, it was an afterthought. The game wasnt made to be complete stealth at the beginning, it was a bonus.
I personally don't think people forgot that that they can kill people, it's that the game strongly encouraged choosing a gameplay style and then sticking to it. Then on top of that there are only consequences for playing in high chaos.
I blame the UA-cam algorithm for your low subscriber count. The video is just great.
Hopefully this blows up ur channel man, ur in recommended, I just subbed
Appreciate it!
Excellent video! Great discussion - even better than your video on Red Dead Redemption 2
Thanks for watching!
lmao, why is this channel so underrated :'(
Thanks for watching!
I much prefer the first game over the second. I like the art style more than the second, I think the characters we meet are more memorable, and Corvo’s mask is scarier in the first one
I agree - it just has a quality or atmosphere that the second doesn't. Although I think the level design in the sequel is far greater in almost every regard
Funny thing is there's no reason to explore the Clockwork Mansion either. First time I played it I immediately found a path behind the walls that led straight to Jindosh with the only obstacles being two guards and one wall of light.
Funny thing I realised there's no point in playing at all because i can finish the game even faster by downloading a completed save file
to be fair, it makes alot of sense for the high chaos to be the "bad" ending of the game.
you have to remember, Corvo is NOT a murderer, he is simply the former empresses bodyguard.
Sure, you CAN go ahead and kill everyone you come across feeling as though you've been betrayed by your country, but at the end of the game, this leads to Dunwall collapsing from the plague and corruption created by Corvo's rampage the people feeling they've been betrayed by their country for putting Corvo in an area of power.
HOWEVER if you choose to go low chaos you get the better ending of the game where the plague is cured by Sokolov and Pierro and Emily sits on the throne as a ruler and not a figure head. The people feeling as though they were betrayed by the regent and not Corvo himself.
Corvo is a citizen of Dunwall with exceptional swordsmanship and marksmanship at the end of the day, the chaos system follows the main narrative in the way of tying your streaks of blood and death to the ending of the game. It's a very nice concept although I do have to agree that it IS limiting severely on how players can and will play the game.