Hi, I'm Will and I've had to dodge lots of bullets my whole life. I have to stay away from public shooting ranges because I always get shot at when the rangemasters say FIRE AT WILL! 🙃
Cavitation is what happens in a wound track, what you were pointing at is known as “back face deformation,” for which the NIJ also has a measurement and a standard to pass the armor tests. The reason for this is if the armor deforms too much the force of catching the bullet can kill you anyway, for example if it crushes your ribs into your heart and lungs.
@jonboy9734 I think both front and back, with the plastic type plates. But someone else is welcome to correct me. I think their main benefit is weight, possibly multi hit. But the drawback is huge rear deformation with higher power rounds.
I wondered if because the plate was already compromised by the earlier hit, if it would perform better on the half inch mark if it were the first hit. Must test, shoot more body armor Mr Poet!
There is always a trade off ! The bottom line is train hard - train smart ! And BE HARD TO KILL ! With or without the armor ! And that is what John teaches !! Great stuff !
Video suggestion: I’d personally really like a “meet the team” series. Like each instructor and team member of WPS gets a video on they’re background and why they gravitated to this community. (Including John). Because I get the basics of their history, but a more in-depth “where have you been and what have you done” would be super interesting. Use this comment as a petition to get that going🇺🇸
John - love you and everything you do. Please comment on the ShotStop failure to be certified by NIJ and dissolution of the company. I own several sets of their products I bought from them. Thank you
Glad to see videos like this are coming back. I've never been a huge fan of podcast style videos, especially panel based ones. That intro by the way, was hilarious.
Thanks for this video. I carry Poly plates for the sake of the weight but always wondered how it compares to other plates. Seeing this put gives me more confidence in my equipment
Now I believe even more about what Clint Smith said about armor. "It's great if you have someone who can actually hit it." But then again like Clint all we had were those damn flak jackets in my day too.
Helariously his statement is accurate. Body armor generally only helps in ambush, explosives, or sniper scenarios. In a typical face to face gunfight injuries to the torso are normally only 10-22%, but they are immensely more fatal. So your chance of being shot outside of a 10x12 plate is extremely high. 20% of cqb injuries are headshots. The rest are limb and lower body regions
I think it also depends on brand. Some of these ultra thin poly plates seem to be on the ragged edge of working where some of the thicker ones seem fine. Also the comparison of steel to ceramic was a little off. I dont know of a pure steel level 4 plate but only know of lvl 4 ceramics. Meaning the ceramic can still stop more than the steel. Plus theres some pretty lightweight ceramic plates available. Good stuff and thanks for sharing.
Larger 3a or 3a+ soft armor backer to a smaller 3, 3+ plate eliminates much of the edge impact concern FWIW, say 11x14 backer to 10x12. Doesn't necessarily solve the throat concern, but does bottom and to the sides. Your duritium 3+ plate also looks to have a ceramic face, not just "dust" and "paint" as you reference...
Thanks John , I’m in my mid 60s 285# (+,-) 6’5” . That has been my main complaint about body armor . I feel more coverage in the speedo my wife insist on me wearing . 🤦🤷🏻♂🤮
A few weeks ago one of our local SWAT guys (former FBI SWAT and Chief of Police in town) was leading a stack into a home and got clipped right above his plates and straight into the suprasternal notch, and it killed him instantly. It’s always a roll of the dice when it comes to gun fighting.
If everyone does their own research into body armor & manufacturers, you'll quickly realize that UHMWPE & ceramic armor plates don't have full edge-to-edge protection like alloy armor does (steel, titanium, composite, etc). I would suggest that if you don't like the idea of 9"x11" Level IV, get an 11"x14" ceramic plate AND put a IIIA soft panel behind that (and if you can, a trauma pad behind that).
I bought the Shot stop Duritium IV-HA LEVEL 4 stand alone plates in 2021, then I see VSO put out a video saying Shot stop got raided for using Chinese material…. It sounds to me that they basically they compromised their customers lives for $$, what are your thoughts on this?
Makes you really think how useful armor really is. Really just seems that unless your plates are lightweight it's almost pointless. I feel like a longer discussion on civilian/prepared citizen armor choice would be quite awesome. Especially if some parallels are drawn from the Ukraine war. Modern wars it seems are very different to fighting Taliban. Different story in Ukraine however, you see guys dressed in IIIa protection (against artillery/drone dropped nades shrapnel) and they cover *their entire body* like torso, stomach, helmet, and even leg armor. Some even have what looks like 3a neck guards. Makes sense for rear-echelon troops when your biggest threat is shrapnel. (unless it's a direct hit or a sabotage team sneak in of course)
If you are in shape, they are worth the weight. I will carry the weight vs a sucking chest wound. If people are obese and are lazy, of course people make excuses why they are "pointless"
This also varies by manufacturer and how far they extend the strike face. Some companies use the last inch to add protective barriers. When I talked to shot stop they said theirs were not technically edge to edge. Others do fairly well with shots to the edge. Companies like DFNDR and others likely can still handle multi hits in that area (obviously just depends on how they make their plates). Just a factor to consider when deciding what you require and value in a plate. I personally went with DFNDR as their plates are fantastic and the weight compared to threat level is surprisingly light. But they are definitely chonky at 1.1in and have also been heavily considering picking up a set of shot stops due to the amount of movement and impact those things can withstand while maintaining their structural integrity and ability to do their job and are one of only maybe 5 companies I'd truly trust to wear.
Talking a guy recently who has never really worn body armor and he wanted all the armors, and I asked the same question have you ever ran around with that stuff on, which is why I was explaining my somewhat minimalist approach.
Try the same test using a plate made of fiberglass clothe and resin, 1 inch thick, that should cost less than $75 and you can make at home with a few basic tools and a little elbow grease.
As a civilian who doesn't have any plans of long distance rucking with armor the thing that sold me on steel armor is the idea of resupply. I'm not going to be given new plates every five years. I have to buy them if they are available. If I do get shot then steel plates can take more hits than the alternatives so i can use the plates again in the next fight assuming that I can't buy a new plate.
I have ceramic plates that are well over 10 years old. I had them inspected and they tested like new. Steel playes are great till the rounds shatter and hit you in the neck. Even with the coatings I dont like them, but you are right they will last a very long time along with ceramic plates
5.56 is the most common US rifle round. We need to see more testing on 3A+ or 4A plates in a more budget range. I have a wife and 7 kids to buy armor for and can't afford to drop 1000 bucks for everybody. $doesn't necessarily equal quality.
For special forces and recce i guess poly does make a lot of sense. If you man the trench or assaulting, i would go with steel or ceramic for better protection. Lot of bullets and shrapnels fly in UA and it would suck to die on hit that could have been stopped by different armor type.
Hi, thx fir that. What about home made body Armour? Saw a Fiberglas version which seemed pretty good for any handgun... Greetings from South Africa and if you do come past this side, say high at ksb Mission, Josh L😎
The only part about ShotStop thats shady, is their initial lack of openness on their GT2 plates. 1) it doesnt stop m855a1 at all 2) its not edge to edge protection on the green tip rating. If you wear a medium plate, youre only getting small plate sized coverage against green tip- which can be tricky when youre trying to size the plate proportionally to your body structure. To get appropriate coverage, you may have to wear your plate higher than recommended, or go a size up to cover your vitals which can lead to other issues. They have recently started being a little more open about the lack of edge to edge protection but a couple years ago it was just left to independent reviewers to disprove their claims straight from their site. Still a decent plate. Light as can be, and super thin, but maybe not for you ( the individual potential buyer). For me, I buy green tip to stock up on. Its good factory military ammunition, it has penetrating capability, has decent accuracy and ballistics out of my 1/7 twist guns, and is CHEAP AND READILY AVAILABLE. With how prevalent it is, I just dont want to take the gamble on whether my plate will actually stop it or if Im gonna have to pull out a ruler to see whether or not Im gonna live despite it impacting my plate.
Just a thought 💭 but couldn’t you make a plate that has a edge protector made of steel just around the perimeter of the plate about a inch or half inch then use your normal polycarbonate protection??? This way you get the best of the both worlds. An honestly how much extra weight could that actually be. Personally for the added edge protection I’d take the smidgen of extra weight. If any company takes my idea 💡 I’ll need to be compensated lmao 🤣 hahahah. Great video as usual guys !!!
@@MB-jg4trSo it can with these plates and ceramic. They are only designed to stop one round and the back face deformation can still kill you with ease. If you get hit with one your not likely going to live, bad guys dont just shoot one round.
@@zack9912000 they're actually designed and rated to stop more than one high caliber round with acceptable blackface deformation. Yes it's gonna hurt. And if you get hit in the exact same spot with two the second will penetrate, but if you stick around for the second you're doing something wrong. Plus steel fragments bullets and "spall" injury happens, and they're very heavy. They don't issue steel plates to military for food reason. Steel with a good coating is alright, but I'd only consider them as a backup.
Are you using a Hogue knife, are you using a Hogue knife Johnny?? I had a lot of Hogue grips in the past and I remember just seeing a Hogue knife here and there even on their site and now I'm seeing them all over. I'm kidding I didn't see if your knife was or not, but it's funny how it's "the adopted" knife now all over and all the gun shops, at least in Vegas that's how it is. I stopped collecting before those went mainstream but I'll get one soon enough.
Hi, I'm Will and I've had to dodge lots of bullets my whole life. I have to stay away from public shooting ranges because I always get shot at when the rangemasters say FIRE AT WILL! 🙃
Public ranges are a no go😂
Glad none of my rounds hit you. Will, keep on dodging.
Lmao, good dad joke @Minuteman4Jesus !!
😂 Fantastic dad joke mixed with range humor. Thank you for that laugh.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Cavitation is what happens in a wound track, what you were pointing at is known as “back face deformation,” for which the NIJ also has a measurement and a standard to pass the armor tests. The reason for this is if the armor deforms too much the force of catching the bullet can kill you anyway, for example if it crushes your ribs into your heart and lungs.
Kentucky ballistics did a test using a 4 Bore rifle. The Kevlar caught the round…but the Kevlar was firmly punched into the gelatin dummy’s abdomen
I wonder what acceptable deformation is. Those hits that caught looked like 1-2 inches.
Cavitation by definition is a deformation. He may not be using the exact term the NIJ is using, but his Grammer is perfectly fine
Does a cavity form on the front?
@jonboy9734 I think both front and back, with the plastic type plates. But someone else is welcome to correct me. I think their main benefit is weight, possibly multi hit. But the drawback is huge rear deformation with higher power rounds.
I wondered if because the plate was already compromised by the earlier hit, if it would perform better on the half inch mark if it were the first hit. Must test, shoot more body armor Mr Poet!
and vice versa.
There is always a trade off !
The bottom line is train hard - train smart ! And BE HARD TO KILL ! With or without the armor !
And that is what John teaches !! Great stuff !
You Tactical TImmys and Lovell hero-worshipers are pathetic. Lovell is a pandering, hypocritical, alt-right shill and for-profit patriot.
Yes! Be the baddest dude in your suburb.
Video suggestion:
I’d personally really like a “meet the team” series. Like each instructor and team member of WPS gets a video on they’re background and why they gravitated to this community. (Including John). Because I get the basics of their history, but a more in-depth “where have you been and what have you done” would be super interesting.
Use this comment as a petition to get that going🇺🇸
John - love you and everything you do. Please comment on the ShotStop failure to be certified by NIJ and dissolution of the company. I own several sets of their products I bought from them. Thank you
Glad to see videos like this are coming back. I've never been a huge fan of podcast style videos, especially panel based ones. That intro by the way, was hilarious.
Love y’all’s videos even the simple ones like these. Looking forward for what’s to come!
Thanks for this video. I carry Poly plates for the sake of the weight but always wondered how it compares to other plates. Seeing this put gives me more confidence in my equipment
now this is content. i love body armor related test videos
Love this kind of stuff. I hope to see more like it !
Hey, at least they were kind enough to provide the ear protection. 🤣
You are all awesome, thank you
Bob is a very brave Dummy. I watched him closely and didn't even see him move at all when that bullet nipped his side. He deserves a 🍩🍩 or two.
Bob's going to go home and brag to his Real Doll Mrs. how badass he is.
Didn't even flinch
You should test one of the personal body shields that they use in the movie Dune. I want to know how good they really are.
The Spacing Guild is having some great 4th of July sales right now on Holtzman shields.
Thank you John for that elegant explanation of how to train more tactics not to get shoot
All kidding aside great content
LOVE body armor TESTS!
Awesome intro. Great info. Thanks
Thanks for the info John!
That opening skit made my day. Thanks
Love the intro!!!! Great job man keep it up!!!!!
loved the beginning!
Best intro in June. Don't be a target, use good tactics. Work on the 50yrd dash.
Great vid. Bless your family and friends.
Good stuff as always. Love the intro. 😆😆😆
Now I believe even more about what Clint Smith said about armor. "It's great if you have someone who can actually hit it."
But then again like Clint all we had were those damn flak jackets in my day too.
Helariously his statement is accurate.
Body armor generally only helps in ambush, explosives, or sniper scenarios.
In a typical face to face gunfight injuries to the torso are normally only 10-22%, but they are immensely more fatal.
So your chance of being shot outside of a 10x12 plate is extremely high. 20% of cqb injuries are headshots. The rest are limb and lower body regions
Thanks guys
HAHAHAHA.....I'm dying 🤣
That intro is vid of the year
“But, what about Bob?!” 😂
Cheap, light, and strong….pick any 2
I think it also depends on brand. Some of these ultra thin poly plates seem to be on the ragged edge of working where some of the thicker ones seem fine. Also the comparison of steel to ceramic was a little off. I dont know of a pure steel level 4 plate but only know of lvl 4 ceramics. Meaning the ceramic can still stop more than the steel. Plus theres some pretty lightweight ceramic plates available. Good stuff and thanks for sharing.
So do they make slightly larger poly plates to still give you the same coverage as the steal?
Another great video. Laugh and learn. Good stuff.
Larger 3a or 3a+ soft armor backer to a smaller 3, 3+ plate eliminates much of the edge impact concern FWIW, say 11x14 backer to 10x12. Doesn't necessarily solve the throat concern, but does bottom and to the sides.
Your duritium 3+ plate also looks to have a ceramic face, not just "dust" and "paint" as you reference...
That was a spectacular intro 😂
Thanks John , I’m in my mid 60s 285# (+,-) 6’5” . That has been my main complaint about body armor . I feel more coverage in the speedo my wife insist on me wearing .
🤦🤷🏻♂🤮
Spear/balcs appropriately sized to your body for the win.
I'm a hair under 6'6. 240. Have 11×14 plates with xl side plates. It covers pretty dang well what needs to be covered.
We got a yes!!
Neat. Would be cool to see you shoot steel and ceramic plates
I’m bucking the trend here. But I have to say it anyway. I don’t like the idea of body protection dependent on the enemy being a great marksman.
Or go for a head shot.
A few weeks ago one of our local SWAT guys (former FBI SWAT and Chief of Police in town) was leading a stack into a home and got clipped right above his plates and straight into the suprasternal notch, and it killed him instantly.
It’s always a roll of the dice when it comes to gun fighting.
Knights armor was NOT heavy & slow. They were quiet nimble for such a huge level of protection.
If everyone does their own research into body armor & manufacturers, you'll quickly realize that UHMWPE & ceramic armor plates don't have full edge-to-edge protection like alloy armor does (steel, titanium, composite, etc). I would suggest that if you don't like the idea of 9"x11" Level IV, get an 11"x14" ceramic plate AND put a IIIA soft panel behind that (and if you can, a trauma pad behind that).
Hoplite makes some pretty good stuff. Want to order more from them.
good stuff man
I bought the Shot stop Duritium IV-HA LEVEL 4 stand alone plates in 2021, then I see VSO put out a video saying Shot stop got raided for using Chinese material…. It sounds to me that they basically they compromised their customers lives for $$, what are your thoughts on this?
Makes you really think how useful armor really is.
Really just seems that unless your plates are lightweight it's almost pointless.
I feel like a longer discussion on civilian/prepared citizen armor choice would be quite awesome.
Especially if some parallels are drawn from the Ukraine war. Modern wars it seems are very different to fighting Taliban.
Different story in Ukraine however, you see guys dressed in IIIa protection (against artillery/drone dropped nades shrapnel)
and they cover *their entire body* like torso, stomach, helmet, and even leg armor. Some even have what looks like 3a neck guards.
Makes sense for rear-echelon troops when your biggest threat is shrapnel. (unless it's a direct hit or a sabotage team sneak in of course)
If you are in shape, they are worth the weight. I will carry the weight vs a sucking chest wound. If people are obese and are lazy, of course people make excuses why they are "pointless"
@@zack9912000 That's a good summary yes. But a deeper discussion on level of protection, armor selection etc. would be better.
This also varies by manufacturer and how far they extend the strike face. Some companies use the last inch to add protective barriers. When I talked to shot stop they said theirs were not technically edge to edge. Others do fairly well with shots to the edge. Companies like DFNDR and others likely can still handle multi hits in that area (obviously just depends on how they make their plates). Just a factor to consider when deciding what you require and value in a plate.
I personally went with DFNDR as their plates are fantastic and the weight compared to threat level is surprisingly light. But they are definitely chonky at 1.1in and have also been heavily considering picking up a set of shot stops due to the amount of movement and impact those things can withstand while maintaining their structural integrity and ability to do their job and are one of only maybe 5 companies I'd truly trust to wear.
Talking a guy recently who has never really worn body armor and he wanted all the armors, and I asked the same question have you ever ran around with that stuff on, which is why I was explaining my somewhat minimalist approach.
Idea !
Maybe the plate could be designed where the edge material is cylindrical (molded in).
Im not sure why but i have a sense that could help ?
Love the content
Great video. Quick question what ever happened to Evan?
Been noticing the same thing 😢
Like to see a Bob made of ballistic gel to see the impact effects on both stopped rounds and pass throughs.
Bob has heart! True warrior 😂
Try the same test using a plate made of fiberglass clothe and resin, 1 inch thick, that should cost less than $75 and you can make at home with a few basic tools and a little elbow grease.
As a civilian who doesn't have any plans of long distance rucking with armor the thing that sold me on steel armor is the idea of resupply. I'm not going to be given new plates every five years. I have to buy them if they are available. If I do get shot then steel plates can take more hits than the alternatives so i can use the plates again in the next fight assuming that I can't buy a new plate.
I have ceramic plates that are well over 10 years old. I had them inspected and they tested like new. Steel playes are great till the rounds shatter and hit you in the neck. Even with the coatings I dont like them, but you are right they will last a very long time along with ceramic plates
@@zack9912000 I added a spall catching sleeve to mine for added ease of mind.
A garand thumb collab would be sick
5.56 is the most common US rifle round. We need to see more testing on 3A+ or 4A plates in a more budget range. I have a wife and 7 kids to buy armor for and can't afford to drop 1000 bucks for everybody. $doesn't necessarily equal quality.
great as usual
For special forces and recce i guess poly does make a lot of sense. If you man the trench or assaulting, i would go with steel or ceramic for better protection. Lot of bullets and shrapnels fly in UA and it would suck to die on hit that could have been stopped by different armor type.
Game. Take a shot of lukewarm fireball every time John says cavitation lol
Fun intro!
5:25 remember you have an arm too. Either way, that looks like plate failure to me. That was the 1in mark, where it's certified to stop it.
Gimme a lvl4 LW ceramic over a 100% PE plate any day of the week and twice on sundays. That backface deformation with PE will be a mofo as well.
The prime armor hybrid plates look really cool let us know what you think of thier srt plate. Pleaseeee sir!
The term you are looking for is "back face deformation" instead of "cavitation"
"You keep saying that word"
HARD pass on Shot Stop armor
Hi, thx fir that. What about home made body Armour? Saw a Fiberglas version which seemed pretty good for any handgun... Greetings from South Africa and if you do come past this side, say high at ksb Mission, Josh L😎
The only part about ShotStop thats shady, is their initial lack of openness on their GT2 plates. 1) it doesnt stop m855a1 at all 2) its not edge to edge protection on the green tip rating. If you wear a medium plate, youre only getting small plate sized coverage against green tip- which can be tricky when youre trying to size the plate proportionally to your body structure. To get appropriate coverage, you may have to wear your plate higher than recommended, or go a size up to cover your vitals which can lead to other issues. They have recently started being a little more open about the lack of edge to edge protection but a couple years ago it was just left to independent reviewers to disprove their claims straight from their site. Still a decent plate. Light as can be, and super thin, but maybe not for you ( the individual potential buyer). For me, I buy green tip to stock up on. Its good factory military ammunition, it has penetrating capability, has decent accuracy and ballistics out of my 1/7 twist guns, and is CHEAP AND READILY AVAILABLE. With how prevalent it is, I just dont want to take the gamble on whether my plate will actually stop it or if Im gonna have to pull out a ruler to see whether or not Im gonna live despite it impacting my plate.
Poor Bob. Great video. Thanks. 😂😂
Finally, a body armor test where the shooter actually hits the mark- good shooting man
Please reupload everyone knows pain video. Thank you for posting.
John, hit me up I’ll be your human target! 😂
Just a thought 💭 but couldn’t you make a plate that has a edge protector made of steel just around the perimeter of the plate about a inch or half inch then use your normal polycarbonate protection??? This way you get the best of the both worlds. An honestly how much extra weight could that actually be. Personally for the added edge protection I’d take the smidgen of extra weight. If any company takes my idea 💡 I’ll need to be compensated lmao 🤣 hahahah. Great video as usual guys !!!
So funny John 😅! Good information too.
Perform this test with RMA Defense level 4 plates 😁
RMA overbuilds their plates around the edges, give those a try.
Fun intro!
Amazing sermon at grace city church. I loved it.
Being that Poly plates are so light, not a bad idea to plus up the protection and have a Kevlar Sleeve or Backing for them too.
Definitely not what cavitation means
What happened to the poly plates on your website?
Keep it up sir
What plate would you recommend that stops 308 or 3006?
I do not, nor have I ever, served. But, I'm wondering why body armor plates don't have a 20-30% larger surface area?
Could they reinforce the edges of those poly plates with steel to prevent that pass through?
Without additional structure I would be concerned it would turn the steel into fragmentation.
This is interesting to see. My plates are poly.
Why are the plates so narrow compared to the width of the torso? Why not plates on the sides also? I agree with the idea of not being a target…
Steel is always best. I did tried m193 with 10 yards away with 3 shots at 1/2 inche side of corner it’s still save and not throwing the plates.
30-06 will slide through that like butter
@@MB-jg4trSo it can with these plates and ceramic. They are only designed to stop one round and the back face deformation can still kill you with ease. If you get hit with one your not likely going to live, bad guys dont just shoot one round.
@@zack9912000 they're actually designed and rated to stop more than one high caliber round with acceptable blackface deformation. Yes it's gonna hurt. And if you get hit in the exact same spot with two the second will penetrate, but if you stick around for the second you're doing something wrong. Plus steel fragments bullets and "spall" injury happens, and they're very heavy. They don't issue steel plates to military for food reason. Steel with a good coating is alright, but I'd only consider them as a backup.
De 50c
Would love to watch but I use steel, not plastic
Are you using a Hogue knife, are you using a Hogue knife Johnny??
I had a lot of Hogue grips in the past and I remember just seeing a Hogue knife here and there even on their site and now I'm seeing them all over. I'm kidding I didn't see if your knife was or not, but it's funny how it's "the adopted" knife now all over and all the gun shops, at least in Vegas that's how it is. I stopped collecting before those went mainstream but I'll get one soon enough.
Educational.
Someone should make a hybrid poly/steel plate with steel on the edges.
Now I just wanna know how many times I can get shot with a low caliber like a .22 on level 4 plates
Where can I get those plates?
So, steel in the winter and ceramic or poly in the warmer months ?
Imma stick with steel plates!
What if mine has all three
But do you get a Purple Heart for being a heat casualty?
Everyone's talking about the armor, I just want to know what kind of knife that is 🤔
I bought SafeLife FRAS and will never wear anything else.