Hey, everyone! I know many of you were expecting Xenosaga Ep.III to start this week, but the AC has been out and the studio space is absolutely miserable. It's like a million degrees. That should be getting fixed today, so hopefully we'll be back on track for next week. In the meantime, please enjoy this analysis of a movie that changed our lives growing up!
@@SaintBoot There was at least one LOTR Patreon episode, maybe two he released a very long time back covering just the book on his own, I assume that's what he's referring to. I think all subsequent episodes were in this format with Casen focusing on the movie.
1:19:47 I love the analysis guys and can’t wait to see the rest of the trilogy. I do have to push back a bit on the resilience of Frodo and Bilbo. I don’t think you guys gave Frodo enough credit. Yes, Bilbo had the ring for many decades. But for most of that time, it was an era of peace. Bilbo and the ring shared a symbiotic relationship. The ring was mostly resting dormant and wasn’t threatened. Bilbo wasn’t tested nearly as much as Frodo’s time with the ring. When Frodo had the ring. The ring was at its most vulnerable and most active. It was at its peak power, constantly trying to lead Frodo to temptation. And it reaches its climax when Frodo finally reaches Mount Doom. The ring was at peak desperation and literally fighting for its own survival. To the point Frodo finally cracks and succumbs to the temptation. Frodo and Bilbo had vastly different experiences/relationships with the ring. And if Bilbo was put into the same position. I believe Bilbo would fall to temptation as well.
Another impactful part of the scene where Bilbo drops the ring is the fact that the ring hits the ground and stops, signifying the weight of the ring and the responsibility that Bilbo has let go. Usually when you drop a ring it bounces all over the place, however in this scene it almost stops instantly on the ground as if its being held by an extreme gravity, which is a powerful allegory for the power of the ring and the weight it imparts on his soul.
One of the best movies ever made, an adaptation of one of the best works of fiction ever written. I can't tell you how many times I've watched this movie and just instantly felt the immense scale of Tolkien's world. Peter Jackson's efforts as well as those of the costume designers, make-up artists, sound directors, editors, prop makers, musicians, and all the actors and extras involved should go down in history as one of the most incredible feats of human collaboration ever seen.
My first thought: "I should rewatch _The Lord of the Rings!"_ My second thought: "Who am I kidding? I already committed the entire Extended Edition to memory, down to every visual shot and every line of dialogue..."
Love the point made about the fire. There's a quote that's very apt in Unfinished Tales about Gandalf - "Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress..." Looking forward to the rest!
When I was in college in the early 2000s we had an anthropology professor who had LOTR as a subject for us to study. He said that Tolkien was a great anthropologist, he created cultures, a world, languages. It was really interesting studying the culture of hobbits, the anthropomorphism of the ring, etc.
Fark… now I need to watch the extended version again… Similar to you guys, I’ve also got to experience Tolkien’s work by inadvertently watching the Fellowship of the Ring, not even on cinema, but at an English class… it was so impactful that I begged my mom to buy me the books on the following week, i devoured the books in about 3 weeks and since then read it many times. Definitely a life changing experience… ❤
A key difference between Bilbo letting go of the ring and Frodo being unable to let it go is that for Bilbo, letting it go was temporary. The ring would still exist, and he may be able to get it back. For Frodo...he has to let it go....forever.
Fantastic discussion. I'm not even halfway through and have so many thoughts, but one here: I have always read the line about celebrating a "simple life" as being in contrast to celebrating a heroic life. Of course you would celebrate the lives of heroes who have done great deeds but the line about celebrating a simple life makes perfect sense in the context of establishing the culture of hobbits (who value their simplicity). But it also hints at another famous line: "even the smallest person can change the course of the future." It suggests that even those who live simple lives can still be heroic and do great things, which is one of the core themes of the story. But to take it one step further, the hobbits-Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin (and all the others who stand up to the black riders or help with recapturing the Shire at the end)-are capable of changing the course of the future precisely because it is their simplicity-part of which is their lack of concern for power or dominion-that insulates them from being corrupted by the ring as fast as other races and makes them the most suitable and the most likely to be able to destroy the One Ring (or at least get it to the point where that "other force" can finally intervene).
2:00:00 Damn the parallels or contrasts to Bilbo Smaug are SO interesting!! Its so nice to see you guys peel back the layers of the characters! You guys seriously love art!!
Fellowship of the Ring and the Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole was so important to me during my childhood. I watched all of them in theaters when they were originally released and the first one released when I was 6! Obviously I was very young and could not appreciate all the finer details, but I remember being glued to all of these movies at such a young age. I think it helps too I grew up watching the 1950s epics like Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur, so I was very used to large scales movies, but most importantly I watched it and I knew I wanted to make movies. It’s a part of me.
Me and my friends made the cover of the local paper queuing up for the first film, we were there all night and in the morning we got our tickets. You could buy 8 tickets per person and soon most of the great seats were gone after us :D I gave my grandfather a ticket since he loved the books, but hadn't seen many films in his life. The premiere was at midnight and I remember being SUPER tired by the end lol. Unforgettable. Great times.
Tolkien lived through and fought in the Great War; he was there in the trenches, watching as his brothers-in-arms died to the proverbial meatgringer at the whims of callous generals. Both sides were fighting a senseless war, and those who lived had to find a way to continue living; thus, it’s quite fitting that he relates more to the little Hobbits than to the Kings, to the Dwarf Lords or the Elves…
It is more than that. It was the fact he grew up in the places the hobbits lived and watched as everything around him got ruined. And then the war happened. And like the Hobbits he had to.
It’s worth saying, it isn’t just that Tolkien and Lewis were Christian, Lewis was an atheist when they met and Tolkien is part of the reason Lewis converted
I don't know how much you're gonna discuss the soundtrack, but the musical key of Concerning Hobbits is important: it's in D major. Normally you'd compose in C major if you wanted to convey innocence, whereas D major is a key for glory and heroism. It's a nice touch I think. Oh and the Rohan motif is in A minor, the relative minor to C major. They've long lost their innocence.
Too funny, while you two were discussing the difference in what the ring did to Gollum and Bilbo, I noticed the ineffectiveness of the "scarecrow". Never noticed it till now
This is an equally monumental movie for me aswell so thank you so very much for sharing this episode in UA-cam guys. I hope you continue to release other episodes of it that are available on patreon as well. Such a good podcast about a topic you are so invested in deserves to be seen.
Talk about synchronicity! I decided on a whim to rewatch Fellowship this week. Couldn't finish the movie then, and stopped exactly at the point you guys end the episode on.
The ending of third age is a tragedy. The magic that was still alive in the world is undone. The power of the elves and dwarves is fading and in decline. Only the hope born through the destruction of the one remains. All else is a ruin or a memory an impartial remembering of a grander story. It’s beautiful and sad.
I just finished a reread, the timing really is insanely perfect. This time I decided to finally read silmarillion and unfinished tales before tlotr and all that extra context really added a lot, such a wonderful experience.
About the moment where Bilbo uses the ring at the party: The main difference between the book and the movie is that in the book (if my memory is right) Gandalf and Frodo know that Bilbo has a magic ring that turns him invisible, Gandalf just doesn't know yet that it is the One Ring, wich is one of reasons Frodo spends so many years in the Shire after Bilbo's departure. In the movie they kept the ring a secret as reason for Gandalf's panic and Frodo's rushed departure, wich brought a bit of action to the movie where in the book is a slow development. Wich, considering the different medias, I personally think was a good decision.
Loved the way you opened this discussion. I too was around that age when the films were out in theaters. Definitely left an impression. Wish I completed the books ..I recall I wasn't enjoying of the way Tolkien wrote things. I did read the Hobbit in it's entirety and noticed a major difference in how it was written. That one was more to my liking.
I like the idea of the ring betraying Sauron. The ring represents ones capacity for evil and in the end evil betrays everyone. Theres a reason Sauron or Morgoth before him failed, because following the path of evil, never works out in the end.
Coincidentally I just finished reading the first book and I enjoyed it very much, but there were a few points throughout where I felt like there was no sense of urgency to match the situation the characters found themselves in. I found myself relieved to have the Tom Bombadil stuff finished. I found the cultural stuff with hobbits and other races to be delightful and/or fascinating, but Ol Tom felt like a whimsical bedtime story character and I did not expect such a sizable portion of that book to involve so much singing TOooMBooOMBAaaaDIiiLLOoooo
For me it would have been great to at least include a single ballad from what Tom sang. And the film did have songs just not any of -his songs. I don't know, I would've liked to have had that walking song for example sung by some of the characters during a calming part of the film. I don't mind Tom's character removal but it broke my heart being curious about how folks would adapt his songs then the audience got nothing. Missed opportunity imo.
ahhh, I'm so glad you guys are finally covering this movie like this! Since the Dark Pixel days with Brandon, I've been aware of how much you guys love this trilogy! I'm the same age as u guys so I completley resonate with the affection towards this movie at that time in our lives. Looking forward to this one guys! Thanks as always for the content.
1:39:55 In the book Sauron was defeated by the combined effort of Gil-Galad and Elendil, who both died as a result of that, and then Isildur takes the broken hilt-shard of Narsil and cuts the ring from Sauron's "dead" body.
I would just like to say you have punted me right down a rabbit hole. I haven't watched the films since i was a kid, and never really delved into the books. now the audio books make up most of my work commute and im planning watch-alongs with my friends, I eagerly look forward to part 2 (assuming i dont bite the bullet and sub to the Patreon) if only because i want to play Xenosaga myself after finishing the Blade trilogy last year.
58:10 it occurs to me only just now that the power of the Great Rings to preserve, held by bilbo successfully as long as he did helped preserve Hobbiton in some fashion as well. As soon as Frodo departs with the ring the Shire gets scoured.
I can not overstate how thankful I am that you chads upload your patreon exclusive episodes at later dates. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to be able to support via donations. If I ever do, you guys will be the first people I support. I see so many youtubers that just keep their exclusive content on patreon, and thats it. It seems you truly care about us that you would put in the effort to do this. Again, thank you!
The quote about allegory is as follows: I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author. (If anyone wants to really really grasp the essence of the death of the author in criticism, it's that quote)
Ah yes. The story that indirectly laid the groundwork for pretty much every RPG in existence. Can't think of a more befitting film series for you guys to tackle! Almost surprised it wasn't the first non-video game content you went for, but as they say: "A podcast is never late..nor is it early. It arrives precisely when it means to.." ;)
The best adaptation of a book I've ever seen in my entire life is Polanski's Rosemary's Baby. It's equally as good as Ira Levin's novella and is so utterly reverent to the original prose that it actually boggles my mind.
Definately hyped up myself too much for your first episode of Xenosaga III as now I have to wait another week for it, lol. Re: internet in the old days, I too experienced the days of 56k dial up or whatever it was. Of my father yelling at my sister or I to get off the internet as he didn't want to miss any incoming calls. The days of waiting a minute or more for an image to download. As with so many things technology-wise these days we're so spoiled compared to the way it used to be for us 90s kids.
I've not counted the number of times I've read Fellowship. It's probably my favorite book. There is something so appealing about it's slow and small start all the way to it's epic and tragic end. When the movie came out I had probably read the book at least a half dozen times. While I had nitpicks about some of the choices they made in the movie, it was better than I could have possibilty hoped for in an adaptation.
Tolkien's religious allegory is there to see. It just has to be interpreted over the course of the whole series. Gandalf, as introduced, is allegorical to Woden, the norse pagan god. While the fellowship is in the depths of Moria, he fights the Balrog (the devil, on the nose) and falls to him in battle. Later, with a new sense of vigor and purpose (much like western christendom just after the viking age) Gandalf is reborn as "the White" and is basically Jesus like in character, guiding the world of men to defeat evil, as a benevolent force, like a totem. Christian Gandalf leads men victory in a way pagan Gandalf couldn't.
The opening narration by Galadriel always struck me as speaking NOT to the audience in the theatre, but rather to someone else (perhaps Frodo in Lothlorien, or Gandalf at some earlier moment before he was presumed lost in Moria, or perhaps to her son-in-law Elrond at some point -- or even perhaps simply to herself). Though surely, she and Gandalf and Elrond are indeed old enough to remember the things she alludes to .... so when she says "none now live who remember it" she's presumably excluding herself.
The last known possessor of THE ring, was Dick Clark but after many years it passed to someone else which is evidenced by Clarks rapid decline all at once
Great video. I remember about a week after seeing it in theater, someone shared a dvd-screener copy of Fellowship on one of the infamous p2p programs. I think it was Kazaa. And it's funny you went into a little mini-tangent about download times because I remember it took a full *week* to download lol. Luckily those p2p programs let you pause downloads because this was on dialup. The amount of passion that went into the original trilogy is likely why it still holds up (especially compared to The Hobbit). You probably get into it later how they went out of their way to hire super knowledgeable fans as consultants to help work out the languages and visual design. iirc, even the Elvish languages weren't fleshed out enough by Tolkien for the extent that they needed for use in the film. And we probably owe it to this trilogy for the current trend of con-langs in other fantasy adaptations like Game of Thrones. They genuinely cared about keeping it authentic despite making some changes. And like you guys, I agree (most) of the changes they made in the films. Having Arwen be the one to rescue Frodo to Rivendell was such a badass scene for her. 🙂 It was great that they were able to even keep the authenticity of the characters smoking their pipes even at a time when it was largely being erased from movies. It's been a while since I watched the commentaries but I think they had geared to put up a fight over keeping it but no fights or arguments from the studio ever came haha. And then they even went on to sell replicas of the pipes along with the various swords and trinkets. 😂
1:26:50 But is the power/addiction of the ring not stronger in the Mountain where Frodo was about to throw it in? I think I read something like that somewhere.
The film version of how Isildur acquires the Ring (and how Sauron is defeated) is one of the most disappointing deviations from the book. It turns the whole event into an accident. Elendil and Gil-galad defeated Sauron in physical combat, an utterly incredible feat, and they both die in the effort. It was very deflating for me to see the way they changed it.
They changed it to get the important information across in the least amount of time possible. It’s not necessarily important how the ring was taken from Sauron only that it was and by who. It’s not important to the story the film is going to tell how Elendil and Gil-galad kill Sauron and die in the act themselves, which is why it’s not included. There’s also the implications of showing the main antagonist being defeated by two people whilst having the ring. To the casual viewer who doesn’t understand the strength of Elves and Numenoreans, seeing Sauron defeated in this way completely undermines the threat of both Sauron and the supposed power of the ring and destroys any stakes and tension in the scenes following.
@@ItsSVO Yes, of course there are reasons. There are always reasons, but I'm not buying it. It severely undermines the context, and the Legendarium is all about the wider context. Too bad for the films that it puts them in an impossible situation in which they can never not be essentially failures at adaptation. They're good, entertaining, 3-star films, but I've never once felt that they were the masterpieces that so many laud them to be.
@@jameshitt3263 you won’t buy it because your bias for the book doesn’t allow it, that much is very clear. The trilogy is a masterpiece in film making and adaptation and regardless of your opinion the academy awards the films obtained speak for themselves objectively. I am interested how you feel it “severely undermines the context” though. What context are you referring to?
It's worth considering that the nature of evil in Tolkien's work is the desire for domination and control over others. The first evil is Morgoth attempting to seize control of the music of creation and make himself the centre of it, and that's what the power and temptation of the Ring is to the mighty and ambitious. What could you accomplish if you could *make* everyone do what you wanted?
And the trick is that it can tempt you with good intentions too: what if you could end all wars and hunger and environment exploitation... just dominating the will of all humans and making things go according to your "more sensible and good" desires? Can the ends justify the means?
You guys need to play shadow of war and Mordor while it’s not canon elements of it are and the conversation of the ring betraying Sauron is discussed in a way . Celebrimbor the elven lord is the actual creator of the rings and at least in the games lore it just seems like Sauron’s idea and potentially maybe had an additional hand in corrupting the ring. But this may explain the why the ring betrays him it could be celbrimbors influence or the fact the ring has been associated with betrayal since inception
I concur with Ben Reinhard and Peter Kreeft that Jackson and co. made functional movies but utterly missed or misunderstood Tolkien's philosophy. They began a process that reaches its apotheosis in Amazon's atrocious show, where complex, abstract, religious ideas are flattened, subverted, 'deconstructed' and 'reimagined' until you get some mechanistic, materialistic, shallow and relativistic thing that bears scant relation to the source material. As Tolkien noted in a similar context in one of his letters, they have not perceived where the core of the original lies.
Casen's idea about the Ring betraying Sauron is an interesting one, but I don't think it holds up except possibly in the metaphorical sense that Sauron's lust for power leads him to over-reach. - Sauron created the Ring as a tool for control. Creating it with the potential to turn on him would be like creating a knife which is all blade and no handle... - The Ring is Sauron in a very real way. Its ongoing existence sustains his, while its destruction, if it doesn't entirely end him, at least destroys his power, ruins his armies, and undoes many things made or sustained through the other Rings. The two being so tightly linked makes it unlikely that it could ever seek to betray him.
Two things if I had to compare the ring to rule them all with something it would probably be the Soul Eater Rune of life and death from suikoden, also interesting notes Bilbo is played by the same guy who played Jack the Ripper in the Johnny Depp movie From Hell
Hey, everyone! I know many of you were expecting Xenosaga Ep.III to start this week, but the AC has been out and the studio space is absolutely miserable. It's like a million degrees. That should be getting fixed today, so hopefully we'll be back on track for next week. In the meantime, please enjoy this analysis of a movie that changed our lives growing up!
An episode is never late, it arrives precisely when it means to
@@SaintBootId also like to know Mike's Twitter which ive been trying to find for a while 😆 Perhaps he wants to keep it more private.
Always interested in anything you both discuss, can't wait for Xenosaga 3 but this will tide me over. Great job as always!
@@SaintBoot There was at least one LOTR Patreon episode, maybe two he released a very long time back covering just the book on his own, I assume that's what he's referring to. I think all subsequent episodes were in this format with Casen focusing on the movie.
As excited as I am for Xenosaga episode 3, I don’t mind waiting an extra week for because Lord of the Rings is one of the best trilogies ever.
I love Casen accidentally calling the Hobbit non-fiction.
Haha! Accidentally, of course....
@@CasenSperry What do you know that you aren't telling us?
You have not meet a hobbit? lol
We just haven't seen that far back into the history of the earth yet. Can't wait for us to unearth some giant spider fossils.
Finally, an excuse to rewatch the trilogy.
One does not need an excuse; one just watches.
Will be doing that myself.
1:19:47 I love the analysis guys and can’t wait to see the rest of the trilogy. I do have to push back a bit on the resilience of Frodo and Bilbo.
I don’t think you guys gave Frodo enough credit. Yes, Bilbo had the ring for many decades. But for most of that time, it was an era of peace. Bilbo and the ring shared a symbiotic relationship. The ring was mostly resting dormant and wasn’t threatened. Bilbo wasn’t tested nearly as much as Frodo’s time with the ring.
When Frodo had the ring. The ring was at its most vulnerable and most active. It was at its peak power, constantly trying to lead Frodo to temptation. And it reaches its climax when Frodo finally reaches Mount Doom. The ring was at peak desperation and literally fighting for its own survival. To the point Frodo finally cracks and succumbs to the temptation.
Frodo and Bilbo had vastly different experiences/relationships with the ring. And if Bilbo was put into the same position. I believe Bilbo would fall to temptation as well.
Another impactful part of the scene where Bilbo drops the ring is the fact that the ring hits the ground and stops, signifying the weight of the ring and the responsibility that Bilbo has let go. Usually when you drop a ring it bounces all over the place, however in this scene it almost stops instantly on the ground as if its being held by an extreme gravity, which is a powerful allegory for the power of the ring and the weight it imparts on his soul.
My favorite part was when Jr wrestled with Albedo and ended up dropping a kirschwasser into the fires of mt doom
‘The ring was put on the mantle’
over a fire
FORSHADOWING!
This episode arrived precisely when it meant to.
Underrated comment!
One of the best movies ever made, an adaptation of one of the best works of fiction ever written. I can't tell you how many times I've watched this movie and just instantly felt the immense scale of Tolkien's world. Peter Jackson's efforts as well as those of the costume designers, make-up artists, sound directors, editors, prop makers, musicians, and all the actors and extras involved should go down in history as one of the most incredible feats of human collaboration ever seen.
My first thought: "I should rewatch _The Lord of the Rings!"_
My second thought: "Who am I kidding? I already committed the entire Extended Edition to memory, down to every visual shot and every line of dialogue..."
You too, eh.
"A Wizard is never late nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to!"
Reread the books, much harder to fully memorize those :D
@@SNWWRNNGAll Tolkien's bookfans out there: "Hold my pipe".
Love the point made about the fire. There's a quote that's very apt in Unfinished Tales about Gandalf - "Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress..."
Looking forward to the rest!
Oh, that's an awesome line!
Peak just dropped
When I was in college in the early 2000s we had an anthropology professor who had LOTR as a subject for us to study. He said that Tolkien was a great anthropologist, he created cultures, a world, languages. It was really interesting studying the culture of hobbits, the anthropomorphism of the ring, etc.
The Triology of our generation. They had Star Wars, we have this. And the first Matrix, of course. Classics.
How fitting. They had something completely new that changed everything. We got an adaptation.
@@mrbubbles6468 a very great adaptation. And Matrix is brand new
Fark… now I need to watch the extended version again…
Similar to you guys, I’ve also got to experience Tolkien’s work by inadvertently watching the Fellowship of the Ring, not even on cinema, but at an English class… it was so impactful that I begged my mom to buy me the books on the following week, i devoured the books in about 3 weeks and since then read it many times. Definitely a life changing experience… ❤
A key difference between Bilbo letting go of the ring and Frodo being unable to let it go is that for Bilbo, letting it go was temporary. The ring would still exist, and he may be able to get it back. For Frodo...he has to let it go....forever.
Fantastic discussion. I'm not even halfway through and have so many thoughts, but one here: I have always read the line about celebrating a "simple life" as being in contrast to celebrating a heroic life. Of course you would celebrate the lives of heroes who have done great deeds but the line about celebrating a simple life makes perfect sense in the context of establishing the culture of hobbits (who value their simplicity). But it also hints at another famous line: "even the smallest person can change the course of the future." It suggests that even those who live simple lives can still be heroic and do great things, which is one of the core themes of the story. But to take it one step further, the hobbits-Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin (and all the others who stand up to the black riders or help with recapturing the Shire at the end)-are capable of changing the course of the future precisely because it is their simplicity-part of which is their lack of concern for power or dominion-that insulates them from being corrupted by the ring as fast as other races and makes them the most suitable and the most likely to be able to destroy the One Ring (or at least get it to the point where that "other force" can finally intervene).
2:00:00 Damn the parallels or contrasts to Bilbo Smaug are SO interesting!! Its so nice to see you guys peel back the layers of the characters! You guys seriously love art!!
1:45:40 - "I only gave your uncle a little nudge out of the door" - Gandalf to Frodo
Fellowship of the Ring and the Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole was so important to me during my childhood. I watched all of them in theaters when they were originally released and the first one released when I was 6! Obviously I was very young and could not appreciate all the finer details, but I remember being glued to all of these movies at such a young age. I think it helps too I grew up watching the 1950s epics like Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur, so I was very used to large scales movies, but most importantly I watched it and I knew I wanted to make movies. It’s a part of me.
Me and my friends made the cover of the local paper queuing up for the first film, we were there all night and in the morning we got our tickets. You could buy 8 tickets per person and soon most of the great seats were gone after us :D I gave my grandfather a ticket since he loved the books, but hadn't seen many films in his life. The premiere was at midnight and I remember being SUPER tired by the end lol. Unforgettable. Great times.
Tolkien lived through and fought in the Great War; he was there in the trenches, watching as his brothers-in-arms died to the proverbial meatgringer at the whims of callous generals. Both sides were fighting a senseless war, and those who lived had to find a way to continue living; thus, it’s quite fitting that he relates more to the little Hobbits than to the Kings, to the Dwarf Lords or the Elves…
It is more than that. It was the fact he grew up in the places the hobbits lived and watched as everything around him got ruined. And then the war happened. And like the Hobbits he had to.
WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE!!!
It’s worth saying, it isn’t just that Tolkien and Lewis were Christian, Lewis was an atheist when they met and Tolkien is part of the reason Lewis converted
I don't know how much you're gonna discuss the soundtrack, but the musical key of Concerning Hobbits is important: it's in D major. Normally you'd compose in C major if you wanted to convey innocence, whereas D major is a key for glory and heroism.
It's a nice touch I think.
Oh and the Rohan motif is in A minor, the relative minor to C major. They've long lost their innocence.
Too funny, while you two were discussing the difference in what the ring did to Gollum and Bilbo, I noticed the ineffectiveness of the "scarecrow". Never noticed it till now
This is an equally monumental movie for me aswell so thank you so very much for sharing this episode in UA-cam guys. I hope you continue to release other episodes of it that are available on patreon as well. Such a good podcast about a topic you are so invested in deserves to be seen.
Took my son to watch these a few weeks back when they were in theaters. Pure magic!
I love that everyone online is talking about these films and books again!! The 2000s were awesome when these movies came out.
Thank you for this sustained subtle, attentive and thoughtful reading of Tolkien's text.
Talk about synchronicity! I decided on a whim to rewatch Fellowship this week. Couldn't finish the movie then, and stopped exactly at the point you guys end the episode on.
Oh man this is gonna be so fun to listen to!
Cool I am watching these with my teenage niece. They are such great movies and very good adaptations of the books.
The ending of third age is a tragedy. The magic that was still alive in the world is undone. The power of the elves and dwarves is fading and in decline. Only the hope born through the destruction of the one remains. All else is a ruin or a memory an impartial remembering of a grander story. It’s beautiful and sad.
I'm currently re-reading them, great timing. Love your podcast. Your FFX analysis hooked me. Keep up the good work
I just finished a reread, the timing really is insanely perfect. This time I decided to finally read silmarillion and unfinished tales before tlotr and all that extra context really added a lot, such a wonderful experience.
Oh, this video just made my week!!!
This is simply amazing gents. Well done! I’m in the middle of my rereads of the silmarilion, Hobbit , and LOTR, so this hit home .
About the moment where Bilbo uses the ring at the party:
The main difference between the book and the movie is that in the book (if my memory is right) Gandalf and Frodo know that Bilbo has a magic ring that turns him invisible, Gandalf just doesn't know yet that it is the One Ring, wich is one of reasons Frodo spends so many years in the Shire after Bilbo's departure. In the movie they kept the ring a secret as reason for Gandalf's panic and Frodo's rushed departure, wich brought a bit of action to the movie where in the book is a slow development. Wich, considering the different medias, I personally think was a good decision.
been a while since i watched you guys!! i’m excited for this, i’ve been wanting to rewatch this trilogy for a while!!
Welcome back!
Loved the way you opened this discussion. I too was around that age when the films were out in theaters. Definitely left an impression.
Wish I completed the books ..I recall I wasn't enjoying of the way Tolkien wrote things. I did read the Hobbit in it's entirety and noticed a major difference in how it was written. That one was more to my liking.
Finally 🔥🔥🔥 the media we owe everything too.. without LOTR we wouldn't have videogames in general.
I like the idea of the ring betraying Sauron. The ring represents ones capacity for evil and in the end evil betrays everyone. Theres a reason Sauron or Morgoth before him failed, because following the path of evil, never works out in the end.
I just recently watched this with the cast commentary on which ive never done before. Pretty entertaining!
My body is ready.
Coincidentally I just finished reading the first book and I enjoyed it very much, but there were a few points throughout where I felt like there was no sense of urgency to match the situation the characters found themselves in. I found myself relieved to have the Tom Bombadil stuff finished. I found the cultural stuff with hobbits and other races to be delightful and/or fascinating, but Ol Tom felt like a whimsical bedtime story character and I did not expect such a sizable portion of that book to involve so much singing TOooMBooOMBAaaaDIiiLLOoooo
For me it would have been great to at least include a single ballad from what Tom sang. And the film did have songs just not any of -his songs.
I don't know, I would've liked to have had that walking song for example sung by some of the characters during a calming part of the film. I don't mind Tom's character removal but it broke my heart being curious about how folks would adapt his songs then the audience got nothing. Missed opportunity imo.
ahhh, I'm so glad you guys are finally covering this movie like this! Since the Dark Pixel days with Brandon, I've been aware of how much you guys love this trilogy! I'm the same age as u guys so I completley resonate with the affection towards this movie at that time in our lives. Looking forward to this one guys! Thanks as always for the content.
1:39:55 In the book Sauron was defeated by the combined effort of Gil-Galad and Elendil, who both died as a result of that, and then Isildur takes the broken hilt-shard of Narsil and cuts the ring from Sauron's "dead" body.
One of the most disappointing changes from book to film.
I would just like to say you have punted me right down a rabbit hole. I haven't watched the films since i was a kid, and never really delved into the books. now the audio books make up most of my work commute and im planning watch-alongs with my friends, I eagerly look forward to part 2 (assuming i dont bite the bullet and sub to the Patreon) if only because i want to play Xenosaga myself after finishing the Blade trilogy last year.
Yay! Thank you guys for this!!
58:10 it occurs to me only just now that the power of the Great Rings to preserve, held by bilbo successfully as long as he did helped preserve Hobbiton in some fashion as well. As soon as Frodo departs with the ring the Shire gets scoured.
Oh, that's good.
I can not overstate how thankful I am that you chads upload your patreon exclusive episodes at later dates. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to be able to support via donations. If I ever do, you guys will be the first people I support.
I see so many youtubers that just keep their exclusive content on patreon, and thats it. It seems you truly care about us that you would put in the effort to do this.
Again, thank you!
The quote about allegory is as follows:
I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
(If anyone wants to really really grasp the essence of the death of the author in criticism, it's that quote)
Just listening to this, I feel like, I am 13 years old again.
First time seeing this channel and watched the whole thing through at once, a great analysis.
Perfect timing, my friends and I were about to do a re-watch.
Damn and this is right after hearing MSNBC saying LOTR is only appealing to the "Far Right"... perfect episode to debunk those trying to drag Tolkien.
Jesus here we go
Missed you guys, im not into xenosaga so its like we've been on a break, nice to chill with you fellas again
Just went through the fan-made color restoration Blu-rays of the trilogy with directors commentary. Man i love these films
“This place needs to be protected”
Why do you think the ending of ROTK left me in tears?
Was expecting my favorite game of all time (ffix). Took instead my favorite movie of all time. Ill take it. Love you guys.
Love it I am so excited for next episode.
Ah yes. The story that indirectly laid the groundwork for pretty much every RPG in existence. Can't think of a more befitting film series for you guys to tackle! Almost surprised it wasn't the first non-video game content you went for, but as they say: "A podcast is never late..nor is it early. It arrives precisely when it means to.." ;)
You don't start out by painting the Sistine Chapel. You build up to the big one.
The old studio 😊😍nice to see it and thank you again as always for the top teir content. You guys are the best 🤙🤙
Actually Gandalf is technically a ring bearer just not of the one ring he has an elven ring that was gifted to him that has a power of its own.
The Ring: It is my nature to sting 🦂
There's nothing wrong with being an average Joe. I was thinking about this recently. It has many advantages.
Boromir the GOATED
Hey, Mike, loving the podcast!!!
Can you please link us to your other channel where you analyse the book? :)
@michaelcoraybrown
The best adaptation of a book I've ever seen in my entire life is Polanski's Rosemary's Baby. It's equally as good as Ira Levin's novella and is so utterly reverent to the original prose that it actually boggles my mind.
Definately hyped up myself too much for your first episode of Xenosaga III as now I have to wait another week for it, lol.
Re: internet in the old days, I too experienced the days of 56k dial up or whatever it was. Of my father yelling at my sister or I to get off the internet as he didn't want to miss any incoming calls. The days of waiting a minute or more for an image to download. As with so many things technology-wise these days we're so spoiled compared to the way it used to be for us 90s kids.
I didnt expect it too end like this
now THIS is content
Not many people know, but that fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman was inspired by a fight between Sandy Petersen and John Romero.
I am in awe of you guys.
Great job, as always, guys
Brilliant. I've been waiting for this.
I've not counted the number of times I've read Fellowship. It's probably my favorite book. There is something so appealing about it's slow and small start all the way to it's epic and tragic end. When the movie came out I had probably read the book at least a half dozen times. While I had nitpicks about some of the choices they made in the movie, it was better than I could have possibilty hoped for in an adaptation.
Tolkien's religious allegory is there to see. It just has to be interpreted over the course of the whole series. Gandalf, as introduced, is allegorical to Woden, the norse pagan god. While the fellowship is in the depths of Moria, he fights the Balrog (the devil, on the nose) and falls to him in battle.
Later, with a new sense of vigor and purpose (much like western christendom just after the viking age) Gandalf is reborn as "the White" and is basically Jesus like in character, guiding the world of men to defeat evil, as a benevolent force, like a totem. Christian Gandalf leads men victory in a way pagan Gandalf couldn't.
The opening narration by Galadriel always struck me as speaking NOT to the audience in the theatre, but rather to someone else (perhaps Frodo in Lothlorien, or Gandalf at some earlier moment before he was presumed lost in Moria, or perhaps to her son-in-law Elrond at some point -- or even perhaps simply to herself). Though surely, she and Gandalf and Elrond are indeed old enough to remember the things she alludes to .... so when she says "none now live who remember it" she's presumably excluding herself.
The last known possessor of THE ring, was Dick Clark but after many years it passed to someone else which is evidenced by Clarks rapid decline all at once
Great video. I remember about a week after seeing it in theater, someone shared a dvd-screener copy of Fellowship on one of the infamous p2p programs. I think it was Kazaa. And it's funny you went into a little mini-tangent about download times because I remember it took a full *week* to download lol. Luckily those p2p programs let you pause downloads because this was on dialup.
The amount of passion that went into the original trilogy is likely why it still holds up (especially compared to The Hobbit). You probably get into it later how they went out of their way to hire super knowledgeable fans as consultants to help work out the languages and visual design. iirc, even the Elvish languages weren't fleshed out enough by Tolkien for the extent that they needed for use in the film. And we probably owe it to this trilogy for the current trend of con-langs in other fantasy adaptations like Game of Thrones. They genuinely cared about keeping it authentic despite making some changes. And like you guys, I agree (most) of the changes they made in the films. Having Arwen be the one to rescue Frodo to Rivendell was such a badass scene for her. 🙂 It was great that they were able to even keep the authenticity of the characters smoking their pipes even at a time when it was largely being erased from movies. It's been a while since I watched the commentaries but I think they had geared to put up a fight over keeping it but no fights or arguments from the studio ever came haha. And then they even went on to sell replicas of the pipes along with the various swords and trinkets. 😂
Time for my yearly rewatch
1:26:50 But is the power/addiction of the ring not stronger in the Mountain where Frodo was about to throw it in? I think I read something like that somewhere.
It absolutely was, yes.
If you watch the commentaries you can tell everyone involved read the books so many times.
Oooh this'll be a good one!
Oh? A Resonant Arc deep analysis about one of my most favorite and beloved movie of all time? Well thats just.....PRECIOUSSSS. heheheheh
Im already at 1 hr mark and just realized that this is more than 2 hrs of this podcast. Is there an extended version of this as well😅
2:24:00
You’re thinking of weathertop
For the next thumbnail, could you edit a pic of mike or casen as a character from Rohan
The film version of how Isildur acquires the Ring (and how Sauron is defeated) is one of the most disappointing deviations from the book. It turns the whole event into an accident. Elendil and Gil-galad defeated Sauron in physical combat, an utterly incredible feat, and they both die in the effort. It was very deflating for me to see the way they changed it.
They changed it to get the important information across in the least amount of time possible. It’s not necessarily important how the ring was taken from Sauron only that it was and by who. It’s not important to the story the film is going to tell how Elendil and Gil-galad kill Sauron and die in the act themselves, which is why it’s not included. There’s also the implications of showing the main antagonist being defeated by two people whilst having the ring. To the casual viewer who doesn’t understand the strength of Elves and Numenoreans, seeing Sauron defeated in this way completely undermines the threat of both Sauron and the supposed power of the ring and destroys any stakes and tension in the scenes following.
@@ItsSVO Yes, of course there are reasons. There are always reasons, but I'm not buying it. It severely undermines the context, and the Legendarium is all about the wider context. Too bad for the films that it puts them in an impossible situation in which they can never not be essentially failures at adaptation. They're good, entertaining, 3-star films, but I've never once felt that they were the masterpieces that so many laud them to be.
@@jameshitt3263 you won’t buy it because your bias for the book doesn’t allow it, that much is very clear. The trilogy is a masterpiece in film making and adaptation and regardless of your opinion the academy awards the films obtained speak for themselves objectively.
I am interested how you feel it “severely undermines the context” though. What context are you referring to?
Nice vid
It's worth considering that the nature of evil in Tolkien's work is the desire for domination and control over others. The first evil is Morgoth attempting to seize control of the music of creation and make himself the centre of it, and that's what the power and temptation of the Ring is to the mighty and ambitious. What could you accomplish if you could *make* everyone do what you wanted?
And the trick is that it can tempt you with good intentions too: what if you could end all wars and hunger and environment exploitation... just dominating the will of all humans and making things go according to your "more sensible and good" desires? Can the ends justify the means?
Really odd choice to allow us to see Mike's eyes. Not sure why but I guess I'll live with it.
I rewatch the extended cuts of the trilogy each 1 or 2 years.
oh boy...so you're saying i need to rewatch the extended cut of the movies now...
You guys need to play shadow of war and Mordor while it’s not canon elements of it are and the conversation of the ring betraying Sauron is discussed in a way . Celebrimbor the elven lord is the actual creator of the rings and at least in the games lore it just seems like Sauron’s idea and potentially maybe had an additional hand in corrupting the ring. But this may explain the why the ring betrays him it could be celbrimbors influence or the fact the ring has been associated with betrayal since inception
I concur with Ben Reinhard and Peter Kreeft that Jackson and co. made functional movies but utterly missed or misunderstood Tolkien's philosophy. They began a process that reaches its apotheosis in Amazon's atrocious show, where complex, abstract, religious ideas are flattened, subverted, 'deconstructed' and 'reimagined' until you get some mechanistic, materialistic, shallow and relativistic thing that bears scant relation to the source material. As Tolkien noted in a similar context in one of his letters, they have not perceived where the core of the original lies.
Casen's idea about the Ring betraying Sauron is an interesting one, but I don't think it holds up except possibly in the metaphorical sense that Sauron's lust for power leads him to over-reach.
- Sauron created the Ring as a tool for control. Creating it with the potential to turn on him would be like creating a knife which is all blade and no handle...
- The Ring is Sauron in a very real way. Its ongoing existence sustains his, while its destruction, if it doesn't entirely end him, at least destroys his power, ruins his armies, and undoes many things made or sustained through the other Rings. The two being so tightly linked makes it unlikely that it could ever seek to betray him.
Two things if I had to compare the ring to rule them all with something it would probably be the Soul Eater Rune of life and death from suikoden, also interesting notes Bilbo is played by the same guy who played Jack the Ripper in the Johnny Depp movie From Hell