What Everyone Missed About Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- Is Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within still worth watching? Mike and Casen have taken it upon themselves to analyze this most interesting piece of history. We talk about the Gaia Hypothesis by James Lovelock, and how it fits into the story of this film. The movie is deeply misunderstood, but that is of course its own fault. Enjoy this analysis of a pretty average movie, with an extremely thought provoking spirit hiding deep within.
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. History (3:54)
3. Movie (1:00:54)
4. VFX (1:54:38)
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Gonna send this to my dad, for some reason he REALLY likes this movie. Doesn't even know what Final Fantasy is
Maybe he was feeling these themes intuitively. Haha
Must be one of those things that are so uncanny, he can't help but be enthralled by it.
This is Max Caulfield's favorite podcast now.
She doesn't care what anybody says, that's one of the best sci-fi films ever made.
The older I get the more I realize hironobu sakaguchi has influenced tons of media that I consumed growing up and I hope as time goes on he gets a credit he deserves for the work he has done.
I mean he definitely does. His name is synonymous with one of the biggest and most influential franchises in gaming. It’s not like he’s some little known behind the scenes figure.
I hope Sakaguchi and co are getting their royalties from Mass Effect sales.
I need to Find myself a friend I can have a 2 hour conversation with about Final Fantasy The Spirits Within.
plenty of people here are happy to :)
Me but Xenoblade.
What do you have to say friend? I wanna hear it
My bestie and I forged our bond doing that with Babylon 5
Yeah I’m so jealous of this
"I think Aki's hot." - Casen Sperry, 2024
For real though, love that you guys are covering this. Curious if either of you have ever watched Final Fantasy Unlimited.
For the algorithm.
Long live Resonant Arc.
I remember the advertisement tagline being "Fantasy becomes reality". I had a poster with that in my room for years.
Phenomenal trailers too. "Fire in the hole!"
I love how high concept the movie is. It had a lot of big ideas, from its lore to its big ideas about CGI film making, digital actors, etc...
I still like modern Square but now they JUST feel like a great software company.
The Square of the late 90's felt a finger snapping juggernaut with complete chad energy with insane creative ambition you couldn't help but laugh admire/remember fondly.😂
The setting of FFX is totally unique in fiction nevermind gaming. Square was Playstation in ways, symbolised a lot of the other wild creativity coming out, even the demo disc music and menus/backgrounds bleed tripiness.
all settings in ff are unique and while ffx holds a special place in my heart it was the beginning of the end. ffix was the last true final fantasy.
the setting of ffviii was also more unique than ffx. both are a cluster fucks but ffviii sells you so much better the illusion of a huge world. ffx was the first ff where the world felt like one long dungeon consisting of one way. they also kinda failed with the antagonist. seymour is very forgettable and therefore the whole climax suffers. doesn't even come close to a Sephiroth or Edea.
The idea of The planet being a living organism really resonated with Sakaguchi. It made its way into his initial plans for the the Lifestream in Final Fantasy VII, and he revisited the concepts in Final Fantasy IX and Spirits within. Chrono Trigger used this concept as well. On that note I'd probably say that Final Fantasy IX encapsulates Sakaguchi's true vision this idea. Gosh I want you to do FF9 so bad lol.
Yes well said I was about to comment the same. I don't understand the naysayers about the title of the movie. This film is not good but otherwise it is dripping in the same obsessive themes of Sagakuchi era Final Fantasy games. He's like Cezanne of video game art, painting again and again the same perspective of Mont Saint-Victoire
Oh and great podcast guys, you have an infectious optimism for taking seriously even this lesser work from Sagakuchi's back catalogue. Love it
At this point I'd say that this should be treated as permanent final Fantasy lore. Something each game should incorporate in some way, like Malboros, chocobos, ifrit, bahamut, etc...
@@JarlBarbossa it would get boring really fast
This movie has a special place in my heart. It's not a great movie by any means, but the fact that they made a big budget movie, with all of that high end actor talent tied to the voices, and with Final Fantasy in the title was a big deal to me back in high school.
The Gaia hypothesis is utterly captivating. A rabbit hole I keep falling down.
Regardless whether it is fact or misconception, it is so enchanting to think of our planet as a self-regulating - "Living" - organism.
In Lovelock's first book on the Gaia Hypothesis, he does lean into what is now referred to as "hard Gaia", a strong version of the theory that suggests Earth acts as a living thing.
He backed away from this later, as it was trashed by most scientists. Some work is still being done on weaker versions of the theory which have merit.
Been looking into it all recently myself, what a huge coincidence that this episode comes out.
I really enjoyed the brief VFX segment at the end, it didn't overstay its welcome, it was brief and informative. I know it's not the primary focus of the podcast but I wouldn't mind if you guys did it more with games or movies where it's pertinent, especially when something is done particularly well or bad by your estimations.
For single episode podcasts I recommend Papers Please and Return of the Obra Dinn by Lucas Pope, they are short games and both can be finished in 1 sitting (a couple of hours or less if you know what to do). Although they are not that heavy either thematically or in terms of writing, as they lean more into fictional history and a serviceable "basic" plot. But I still think they are worth talking about in a short format
I saw this movie in theaters when it first came out. I thought it was quite good at the time and I wasn't that familiar with Final Fantasy. Then years later I hear it was a financial bomb and reviewed poorly.
There's no way to tell what movies are going to become popular, unpopular, or popular for the wrong reasons. Hindsight is completely different from what you experience in the moment
You should make one of this about Lost Odissey, the last great Final Fantasy.
I watched it in theaters, and yeah, I stand by it. It’s good enough for me to own it on Blu-ray.
I did too and the CGI looks better than a lot of sci-fi anime 20 years later (Ghost in the Shell SAC 2045, Blade Runner Black Lotus, Blame!, Appleseed etc.). Trigun Stampede looks great though.
i got the 4k its a good update
Going to see AC this week?
I remember when I heard they were making a final fantasy movie. All I could think about was a final fantasy 7 movie. Little did I know that would come later.
I always wonder if they got Nomura's help on this whether it would still be such a flop. I feel like Nomura's style flare and mysticism coupled with Sakaguchi's down to earth storytelling were a match made in heaven and one is often lacking the additions of the other. Take Advent Children, popular but often criticised by fans for being too action focused and obtuse with the characters. AC and Spirits Within seem to be two polar extremes of many of the things we like about Final Fantasy
Casen: this movie isn't good
Also Casen: this movie is great!
Amazing what a deep discussion with someone can do to change your mind. :)
I was at the exclusive premiere in Germany, it was the first time i saw a movie with a fully digital projector, that alone blew my mind.
I agree, they shoulda just titled it Spirits Within or Gaia: Spirits Within
Damn, this was a happy surprise. Great Episode. Anytime you guys talk about production struggles and all the interview stuff its nice. You scrounge a bunch of info i never knew about it. Much appreciated
This is a video by you guys i always wanted but never thought about! Im sooo excited to dive in!!!! Keep winning kings
The Mass Effect connection is wild to hear, because every time I play an ME game, I name my Shepard after "Gray" from Spirits Within. For no reason in particular other than I liked the name and Shepard just kind of reminded me of that character from a design standpoint, and I like that particular "generic scifi soldier man" aesthetic.
I would like to vote for a Paddington 2 episode.
Fascinating as always fellas, I too, came away with very little from this film.
You guys really hit your stride towards the back end there with all this tying together with philosophy and symbolism, it made me start appreciating the film vicariously!
You've actively made me want to give it another spin.
you guys should try the front mission series
I haven't watched this movie in a long time, but I remember loving it. And yes it was the Gaia part, which grab by very deeply. I did knew about it before hand. I found out after playing FF7. But i remember wishing it to be more FF7 like getting deeper withing the real plot that is related to Gaia and the spirits.
"Hang on, they're covering WHAT?!"
"Excuse me Doc, but...what friggin relationship!?"
Awesome thank you guys excited for what’s next
I didn't realize Elliot Goldenthal composed the score for this! I know him for doing the Alien 3 score, which is the best part of that movie and honestly my favorite score of that franchise by far.
i kept rewatching this when i finally got a copy years ago. i just liked the look of the army dudes. Hearing you guys' talk about it is a pleasant surprise.
This was a fun episode. The excitement towards the end is priceless.
Hey. I discovered your channel in 2019 for final fantasy content. Thank you for making a video for final fantasy the spirits within. I loved this movie as a kid for its ground breaking animation at the time.
Squaresoft building their own movie studio to make one movie is just so emblematic of one of their biggest self-imposed problems. It's a mindset that they seem to feel like they always have to start from scratch and build everything themselves from scratch rather than ever make use of resources that already exist that would reduce production time or costs. And a lot of the time, they won't even re-use THEIR OWN assets. It's insanity. They recently said that doing a remake of FF6 would take them 15-20 *years.* Good grief, these guys need to get a grip and learn when to dial back ffs.
The episode I didn't know I needed. Thanks for reviewing this guys! A couple of episodes I'd like to see if possible would be Never ending story and Akira.
NO WAY- it's cool that you guys covered this
Love this movie and seems to be largely forgotten, or as forgotten as something can get in this Information Age,.
Could not wait to sit and watch this when it was first recommended to me the other day, now I can’t wait for y’all and Max Derrat to collaborate on planescape. I am slowly going through ffx along side y’all’s podcast, I may just jump ship and do planescape as episodes come out.
This movie reminds me of my favorite book, Last Dream: The Soul Inside.
Just got notified, can't watch this fast enough.😊
Thanks guys for another insightful podcast.
Great analysis!
I had never played the game that you guys were about to cover so I was pleasantly suprised to see this 😊. I may still check the game out but now I have some time lol
Take all the time you need, Planescape is 100% the game that can push you guys the way Xenogears did, At least for RPGs pre 2018.
I was obsessed with this film when it came out. I had it on DVD and would watch it constantly. I loved the sci-fi combined with spirituality but also... Steve Buscemi! Going to have to dig it out.
I was so hyped for this film. I was a recent convert to the whole Final Fantasy phenomenon. Had played 7, 8 & 9, knew everything about the first 6 thru the nascent internet, and was looking forward to 10. Made my parent take me.
And if I came out of it befuddled, God only knows what they thought.
I don’t hate it tho. I’ll take a failure that wears its hearts on its sleeve like this over pandering nothings like Advent Children and Kingsglaive. Despite being a box office bomb, I think this film has subtly influenced cinema, especially in its visual design. And as you go through the film, I keep thinking of Death Stranding!
Film was also cool for having Steve Busemi, Ving Rhames and Peri Gilpin from Frasier in it!
And Elliot Goldenthal’s music is amazing, as it always is
this will be interesting. I haven't seen Spirits Within since I saw it in the theater when it released. Such a significant event in SE's history.
I am so hyped for this video
I didn't realise I needed this in my life.
It may be important to note that Uematsu was pretty burnt out after the masterpiece that was FFIX's soundtrack. This is a huge reason contributing to why Uematsu worked with other composers for FFX's soundtrack, and their different styles are very apparent in-game.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was also another factor in Uematsu not composing for this film.
FFIX might have been Uematsu's best work, so the break was deserved.
Hearing you mention Planescape: Torment just makes me think how much you would probably enjoy Disco Elysium! I would love so much to hear your thoughts and analysis for that one too.
To be frank this channel and almost every video is so well crafted and prepared I feel at home as a millenial who grew up with these games. Glad to see normal, healthy adults have genuine conversations about the intellectual, philosophical and psychological aspects of said games while reminiscing in nostalgia and trying to be objective about the subject at hand.
Often these days you get dissed by Gen Z for not enjoying shallow content. For instance I get regularly bashed online on a specific topic: for preferring the Zelda Classic formula to the New Breath of the Wild formula of the last two games, because story suffered due to linearity being eliminated, and god do I ride with story over gameplay. This is not something I think will happen on this channel. Nobody will overzealously defend FF15, FF16 or whatever is new and around the corner. People will generally try to look beyond the hill and the qualities of what made media great and not be subjective just because something is trendy and new.
So I am thankful a channel like this exists where deeper things are analyzed and where a search for meaning actually is the point. So thanks for the videos guys!😊
I remember seeing this movie in theaters when I was 11 and it scared the hell out of me lol. Coming off of FFIX, the movie was not at all what I expected, the horror elements especially took me off guard and at the time I reacted negatively to horror.
There was a short movie included in the Animatrix short film compilation that was produced by Square Film studio. Other than that and the Spirits Within I don't think they produced anything else.
I know this isn't your typical thing, but I'd love to see you guys take on some old school anime films.
I have an obvious bias with Leiji Matsumoto, who informed so much of what you guys discuss on the channel with regards to Japanese scifi storytelling. He puts the Opera in Space Opera!
Ghost in the Shell would be a good film to analyze.
Hey, since you will be talking about other stuff until the Planescape podcast, which I'm very excited about, a fascinating movie you could take a look at is the 2008 Speed Racer live action. Even though it's not a "filosofficial movie", more like a fun kids movie, it is a amazing work of art and it would be really interesting to see your view of it.
I thought that Square's involvement in The Animatrix went further and that they were responsible for the "Final Flight of the Osiris" segment.
FFVII Remake players: “Plot ghosts are ruining Final Fantasy!”
Spirits Within viewers: “First time?”
I think they hate the hate of parallel universes COMBINED with spirits, if it was just spirits alone, it would be easier to accept.
With how many games square had in the works all at once, it's really amazing how well they all turned out. FF 9 and 10 are pretty universally loved, 8 is a bit polarizing but I think the overall feeling on it is still mostly positive, 11 I've never played but people who did seem to like it, and the I felt the ports of their old games to PS1 game out reasonably well. Really the movie is the only thing that went poorly.
Spirits Within is legit quite go-... well, it isn't bad. I like it, but I know it isn't amazing and it doesn't need to be. Yes, the money and corporate drama and the overall reputation, but there's something about it. I honestly find it quite watchable. The music though, is stunning. I unironically listen to the soundtrack every now and then. I'd almost like to see some kind of remake that irons out more of the basic film-making issues, but keeps much of it the same perhaps.
The idea is there if they just worked out some kinks in the story and maybe didn't try to crunch it into an hour and a half or whatever it'd be alright
I love this movie because the design of the movie it’s basically a game where you find the spirits and at the end you fight the final boss and Aki becomes a final summon to fight the last boos
I would LOVE to hear a discussion on The Last Story.
love this Channel
You guys are great. Love all of your videos and I appreciate all of the dedication and effort you put into your work.
Would you guys consider covering the Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind manga? I realize you two have previously analyzed the film, however the manga is another beast entirely, with a different story, characters and ending. It would be amazing to see you two cover the manga in its seven volume entirety!
I remember exactly the same thing with this Film that you experienced. I knew about FF7 & FF8, and i remember seeing it being mentioned more and more in the gaming magazines. Somehow, even as a kid, I had some 6th sense that I wouldn't like it, and it would'nt be for me. And actually i've never seen it to this day haha.
Also it reminded me how in the UK we used to get games so much later than you guys in the US back then when you were talking about game release dates. Typically if a JP game came out in january, you guys would get it that Summer, then the PAL release would be in winter sometime like November. It honestly sucked so much knowing a game was out there but you couldn't get your hands on it and had to make do with re-reading game magazine articles over and over. But then at least we would often get a few extras in the game by the time of the PAL release.
This video is a return to form. Im so happy to see you doing deep analysis again.
They always do
Even the Hyperdimension Neptunia games Square-Enix insert has her whole character arc based on the assumption that the movie killed Squaresoft and Enix had to step in, which I still find very funny.
I’ll never forget walking out of this movie in the theatres to go watch starship troopers instead. What a fantastic decision
The Tuscon wasteland line really is the very best part of this movie
This was a very interesting view on the movie, and indeed what's behind the scenes explains a lot of things better and the possible intention for it. It kinda makes want you guys to approach the Final Fantasy Unlimited anime, it had a lot of issues too and was unsuccessful but it did carry a lot of core elements from final fantasy that I found amusing. It even got a couple of novels to expand the story too.
I've been meaning to revisit this movie forever. I watched it when I was way too young to gleam anything from it I think.
When I was 12 I was fresh out of FF7, so I was looking for things that hinted at a lifestream, I kinda saw the ending as a FF7 prequel because the new Gaia formed from the balance between Earth's spirit and the spirit on the shard of that alien world, that resulting Gaia seemed to be more present and more able to influence the material world.
And on the idea of balance between the wave of Earth spirits and alien spirits, I saw it as a way to make it fit in a non-destructive way, not really destroying the alien spirits, but I think even the characters in the movie don't think that they are reaching a merge instead of anihilation.
And I don't know if you guys would ever do this, but a joke episode about the lore of Palworld would be interesting.
You guys should cover more games/movies that were poorly received, but had a really good premise. This made me appreciate the movie more. What else did I miss out on by only judging things surface level? I've enjoyed some really average to bad games/movies where I knew it could've been a better experience if they just tweaked some things. I'd like to hear what games or movies you guys enjoyed that could be considered mediocre to bad.
I am so excited
When I first saw the film I was definitely in that group of being disappointed how little it tied to the series, and that if it were named something else it might've done much better. The marketing really hurt it. Now I think slightly better of it, as a somewhat entertaining CG stepping stone. I also think the concept of the spirits was... quite terrifying? Ghosts that can go through walls that RIP OUT AND DEVOUR YOUR SOUL just by touching you? Overpowered nightmare fuel.
The Spirits Within was my first Final Fantasy
I only watched this movie shortly after it came out when I was barely a teenager. I remember not liking it that much (at the time I was already very much into FF) but haven't seen it since and haven't really thought much of it either.
Reading the vid description it seems like you agree that it isn't that good but made the effort to engage with it and found something worth discussing despite its faults. That's pretty much my favorite type of analysis to listen to so I'm looking forward to this!
Also, I've never been interested in Planescape Torment despite owning it for years but your pitch is just... You are trying to match the depth of your Xenogears series AND will have Max Derrat over????? At least give me a choice lol there's no way I'm not playing it now!
I never played the final fantasy games till 12 and the reason i played it was this movie 😊
This was a great episode! I love these one-off film analyses you guys do and I think they're great to drop in between series of game episodes or even more! I don't consider this to be "filler" at all
I saw this back then in the theaters and it was so good despite not being really final fantasy. And it still looks good til this day.
Welp. You convinced me that I need to watch the movie so I went out and bought it. Haha. So kudos to you for that!
Hmm. In terms of recommendations for one offs, maybe childhoods end?
I still love this movie to this day.
I still love you. To this day
Made it to the end of the video, my initial thoughts on suggestions for some quick episodes going forward lean into some of the more thoughtful, shorter horror games like Amnesia and Signalis, or "lesser known" ones like Haunting Ground or Rule of Rose. Something like Baroque would be interesting, which seriously feels like what would happen if you could make a game out of pure symbolism.
Valentine's day is coming up. Catherine?
As for movies, you could pick a Ghibli one out of a hat, or do something else classic like Ghost in the Shell.
Really, what I'd be most interested in seeing is just whatever is inspiring you guys or making you feel passionate lately, I'm curious to hear your perspectives on pretty much anything.
I actually rewatched this movie some 3 or so months back. Part way through the movie I kinda forgot I was watching something final fantasy until more toward the end of the movie when the Gaia stuff starts to really come to forefront.
I have a friend who was told by his dad that this movie was related to VII and upon rewatching the movie I see how his dad could think that lol
The Gutch was used as a scapegoat after the bombing of the movie, so sad.
Hey guys! Since you are about to tackkle Planescape:Torment, consider playing it with the Unfinished Business mod installed, since it replaces many things that modders found in the games files, but that the devs hadn't managed to incorporate into the final game due to their deadlines. Love from Greece!
Loved this video, also I think is awesome that you are bringing Max Derrat to the show.
His videos are some of the best in regards to VG Analysis. Dude's a self-proclaimed alchemist.
Here’s an interesting tidbit/connection: The first ever fully CG full length movie (Toy Story) and the first ever fully CG full length photo-realistic movie (The Spirits Within) both contain a character named and spelled “Sid”.
If I were to suggest something to cover I'd recommend the 1982 Rankin/Bass animated film The Flight of Dragons. I know you guys are big LotR heads and by extension fans of fantasy. This might be purely nostalgia bias but I personally think Flight of Dragons is FAR better than the Rankin/Bass-made LotR movies. Part of that is just me never connecting with The Hobbit or Return of the King even as a kid and finding the art of those movies to be quite fugly by comparison. It's still a kids movie mind you that is far from flawless and it deviates quite a bit from its source material but I still really like watching it to this day.
The main reason I'm making this suggestion is because of some concepts Casen brought up during the FF6 podcast. Specifically the stuff about elemental-based mysticism, something about the relationship between earth, water, air, and fire. Well this movie's plot is driven by four wizards representing each element coming together to try and preserve the world of magic in the wake of scientific progress. Suffice to say the fire wizard, voiced by the incomparable James Earl Jones, takes issue with their solution and has something else in mind. Just something to think about, I'm sure your more dedicated fans have better suggestions than this to consider. Thanks and keep up the great work.
I went to the cinemas to watch this. I also love the music video Larc en Ciel made for the movie. I remember all the normies enjoying the movie. Only the people who were FF fans hated it because it didn't look like FF.
I saw it in cinemas too! It was also one of my first DVDs.
Could you guys ever share your notes from these movies at some point? I’m trying to start a movie book club with my friends but honestly not sure how to take notes or how to make this work well!
I want to see the different timeline where this film inspired lifelike adult animation to hit the cinema big beyond Pixar and Dreamworks fare. The Marvel craze doesn't count. Its very Eastern and beyond its time still in terms of what it expects from the audience.
Also, speaking of preparation, it's absolutely bizarre to me that it got released for and plays half decently on the Switch.
I love this movie. It’s not amazing, but I love it.
Btw, the character model for Aki Ross was still used in the Animatrix for The Final Flight of the Osiris segment because they did still do the animation for it.
Oh man, commentary with Max Derrat? Great stuff! Absolutely can't wait for it. His Silent Hill commentary is fantastic too.
Will be skipping this week since I haven't seen this movie, but I'm sure I'll come back to it someday once I have. Some of your videos (ex. Nier Replicant) I've waited years until viewing for the first time after finally playing the game.
Planescape Torment is a game I bought 5+ years ago and didn't get far in. I'll view this as an opportunity to hopefully finally start it up for real. May be the first of your games that I will be able to truly follow in the book club format playing along at the same rate you get through it.
Funnily enough, while there are spoilers in the podcast, it might be worth watching this before the movie.
During the podcast Mike & Casen helped each other find some meaning in the story they initially missed, which even the DVD commentators said would be difficult to know just by watching the movie alone. Casen at least plans to rewatch after the episode with a new frame of reference.