20 Advantages to an ICF Building
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- I compare the advantages of ICF construction against conventional building methods. ICF (Insulated Concrete Form) is a monolithic system that supplies continuous insulation and greatly reduces thermal bridging and air infiltration. Eco-friendly and sustainable is our favorite feature. Watch to learn the advantages to an ICF building.
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I'm Kody Horvey, owner of Up To Kode; a full service carpentry, contracting and consulting company that proudly serves Red Deer and all of Central Alberta.
We are committed to being Central Alberta’s most sustainable and energy efficient builder with a strong focus on quality and innovation.
Our vision is to continually implement and increase the use of high efficient building practices and products to create sustainable, multi generation structures.
Here on UA-cam, we hope to share our work, get you inspired, and give you the knowledge to plan and execute your own projects.
Questions? Just ask! Email kody@uptokode.com
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Thx Kody , I have been working in the industry for years (1975) and still going strong, I have never used ICF but iam sold on the idea.
It’s great to see someone that use the product to explains it.
Thank you for such a detailed and well done video.
Thank you very much, great video. It would be interesting to know the cost difference to make a wall of icf vs just concrete or block, say 12' x 40' x 1'. Just looking at it, I'm going to assume you save on materials, labor, and days to build just wonder what it would be.
good one!!!!.. for a masonry facade from outside.. how do you attach it.. foxblock makes one sided foam and outside being wood.. is that a better way to attach stone veneer or do you recommend any other ways to do it
Check out the Helix "rebar" for concrete.
How effective is the ICF system in a warm drier climate (Southern California)? Are there forms that can make the roof? Is it possible or worthwhile to do room additions with this, or would I have to fully encompass the perimeter to make it effective? Thanks for the informative video.
Kode,
is the ICF form block is open cell or close cell ? if it is one side open cell and the other side close cell, it will be so much better.. that's means moisture or is it only water won't go into the close cell insulation , hence concrete is dry always.. but close cell styrofoam is more expensive then conventional white styrofoam.
I was wondering what is the life expectancy of the plastic ties that everything is screwed to? Thanks
Hi - No Mention of Bautex? Please give a comparison to that product.
I would like to use icf to build a 3/1.5 triplets is it possible??
What type of concrete mixture works with this process of building
Hello friend, I'm a builder in Brazil and I also have a channel, I wanted to know what the dimensions of these blocks are?
+JR- Construção These blocks are 16" high X 48" long. Wall thickness is 11 3/4".
+JR- Construção the block in this video is a Logix. We have also used Nudura and their size is 18" high X 96" long. Wall thickness is 11 1/4" and blocks are collapsed upon delivery. Nudura blocks also click together when stacking which reduces chance of lifting or settling while pouring. Cheers!
+JR- Construção I believe I responded to this but don't see it right now. Did you receive a response about this? If not try me again.
I'll contact you when the time comes, great presentation Thanks for educating the people
My pleasure, thanks for watching
Icf cost per metre or foot vs traditional?
very informative
+Kenzo El Negrito Thank you.
Hi Kody videos are great what dimension are your footings with 6 inch icf /10 ft walls .just would like your opinion. Thanks
I always go 24” wide footing. 8-9” deep. 3 rows of 15mm rebar on chairs for proper placement and avoid rebar laying on the ground. Dowels too of course.
Thank you
You’re welcome! I have tons more ICF videos as well.
Hello, i wanted to ask you if this construction system works and if is resistant to seismic activity? I am in a very seismic country, would it be strong enough to stand seismic movement through the years... and possibly strong ones?
Yes anything built with reinforced concrete is more resistant to seismic activity than wood, probably more so than steel alone. but with the facts it is a insulated form itself offers its own strength and if concrete breaks inside it remains hidden and not an issue.
Kody, I am still puzzled about building full-height walls for multi-story house with ICF walls all the way to the roof. Is it possible to do a multi-story (e.g. basement, 1st and 2d story) ICF concrete placement at one time (obviously in mfg'r recommended 3' or 4' lifts), to avoid having cold joints between stories, or must they be done as separate pours and just accept the cold joints? If the latter, are there special tips or techniques to avoid excessively compromising the strength of the walls due to the cold joints (e.g., by extra vertical rebar dowels and/or a formed "keyway" at the top of each story, or other tricks)? I am concerned about very strong hurricane force winds and tornadoes, and I want the walls as strong as reasonably possible.
as reasonably possible! At Each level rebar is added the same way you cold joint and reinforce off the footer. And if that doesn't convince you can just look at multi-level ICF houses that survive hurricanes and Tornados that have erased entire neighbourhoods leaving them as the only thing standing. it's not just the rebar that strengthens the house but as he said its a monolith rebarred concrete box. Not a free-standing wall to be failed at a cold joint.
I've done a few ICF homes in the last few years,your a good salesman, and make valid points.Very strong energy efficient hom, but u will never recover the extra costs incurred. All the subs are charging more to do their jobs, it's very time consuming. I would never worry about it breaking down if u get it covered up and water tight. My opinion is if the foundation is straight forward it's not bad, but I did a house that was planned for SIPs and then changed to ICF and dimensions didn't work as well as it should've, but that's just poor planning. The more turns in a house the tougher it is to keep plumb. I'm 30 years as a concrete contractor if u are questioning my background. It would benefit me to push this system, but I probably wouldn't take it above the basement walls.
I’m the opposite. I think it easier once you get above the 1st floor. I do agree that it’s tricky to maintain plumb with multiple corners. Also the trades I use don’t charge extra for portion of the job. The biggest impact is to the electrician and once they know a few tricks it’s just as easy as anything else. The way we do things is different. We are carpenters so there’s no extra coordination between ICF guys and framers. We do both which makes it easy. Thanks for your response! Valid points for sure.
I do both too, if the house is multiple stories se the floor systems in and stairs, even if the walls aren't poured, then I can plumb up walls and brace them without much of a fight. Definitely more of a carpenter type system. I see the benefits of this house, I just typically have customers who want this, thinking it's cheaper less work and will save them money in the long run. Only if u live a hundred years. U need to look at these not for economical reasons, but for strength and quality reasons
What state do you run out of?
could you place precast concrete on top to make your roof out of? in other ways could it support the weight
+Thomas Arismendez Of course it would need to be engineered but I don't see why not.
I think ICF co construction is amazing. Look at how the ancients built using stone and how long those structures last! I think that says something. I do wonder about the plastics and foam longevity though. Any thoughts?
The biggest enemy of plastic is UV . Since these plastic components are encased in styrofoam, which is itself encased by waterproofing membranes, which are encased by finishing materials and/or dirt ( if sublevel), its very likely that these plastics will outlast all of us. Just make sure to follow instructions on what kind of screws to use.
Hi Kody, do you have info regarding pouring concrete for ICF walls over 11ft? Can you do it in two different pour to make it easier? For example, do the blocks up to 6' and pour the concrete and then stack up another 5' and pour again. Is that doable or recommended?!
For 11’ high I would pour all at once. Sometime we block the shields up from the bottom so the top of the brace is at the top of the ICF.
Great questions from you!
Hello! I was wandering if you build ICF homes around Ottawa? We are planning to build a house in 1 year or so. Thanks
+Vlad Siloci I'm in Alberta to that's a negative.
go nudura
thanks!!!
i personally believe this icf system is very good. good insulation, that's one thing i believe..
how expensive is it ?
i am at germany, is it available in Germany ?
Germany pioneered the use of ICF construction after WWII......Most of the reconstruction was performed using this method.
I was wondering in our imperfect world how would you see if any of your walls were cracking, chipping, bending and bowing before it was to late with total failure. Don't get me wrong, I would love to use icf's in my next new home. Please get back to me asap. What about the ones where the insulation is in the middle of the concrete?
Good question. It’s all in the prep work and knowing and appreciating the force of Concrete. One tip is string all your lines before pouring so that once you’re done it’s quick and easy to straighten your walls. If it’s a big pour you can also add delay set to the Concrete to buy more time to pour and straighten. As for voids if you vibrate that solves most of that. You can tell if there’s a void by the way the vibrator feels as it moves inside the wall. Never had a problem with voids unless it’s less than a 12” space down a column or something. If you use the rebar that the block companies suggest you shouldn’t have cracking issues. Make darn sure to use hook dowels to attach your footing to the wall. That way they can’t separate and it makes the entire assembly one unit. Be aware of high backfill areas and if you do consult an engineer.
As for systems with insulation in the middle. Not a fan. Most common is precast Concrete. You will have expansion and contraction difference from inside temperature vs. Outside temperature. Not a monolithic wall like ICF. The wall is only as good as the weakest point and on precast that is a bead a caulking between panels. You have to trust your roof to hold the walls up. If a disaster happens and the roof is gone then those walls can fall down. ICF is the only wall assembly that doesn’t need a roof or floor to support the walls. They stand on their own. Hope that’s helps!!
I can find a lot on ICF exterior walls, but not too much on how the interior walls are subsequently completed. I've seen both ICF throughout, as well as hybrid designs using stick-frame interior with ICF exterior. Could someone let me know if there is a list of pros/cons to both methods? Maybe costs, ease of running plumbing/electrical, speed of installation, etc? Just the considerations one should think about.
My wife and I are currently in our planning phase for an ICF home in northeast U.S. Ranch style with a basement, 5000 sq/ft including finished basement.
Kody, your videos are excellent. You should be a teacher.
I appreciate your comment at the end. It means a lot. In my business we always just stick frame our interior walls. Here's a few reasons why: More versatility and ability to make changes down the road. Faster because you don't have to pre-plan vent lines, air returns and other items that go in the walls. Cheaper for sure! A rough per sq ft price of ICF based on wall area is around $15 (that's 6" concrete) where as a framed wall would be around $3-4/sq ft of wall area. Wood walls take up less area.
The one thing I like about ICF interior walls would be the thermal mass factor. Just more "storage" for heat or cold depending on winter or summer.
If you need anything else let me know. Kody@uptokode.com is my email. If there's some info you would like to see on my channel please let me know as well.
1GoblinGreen I
Can you do ICF construction on pilings?
+Richard Poulin Jr Yes you bet. Very versatile product. Most likely need to be engineered.
If there is condensation in the concrete (inside the ICF), is there a construction technique for collecting this water at the bottom of the ICF and helping it flow away from the building?
That’s a fantastic question!! The dew point of condensation is in the centre of the wall. I would like to think that this moisture should get dissipated to the outside environment and thus the reason for using breathable membranes for house wrap.
Certain systems, like EIFS stucco, require a drainage plane for water to escape and installed in a way that it runs out of the flashings.
I’m am studying more building science items such as this and find it very interesting.
The condensation point is always where the insulation ends. These dew point calculations are useless and only for laboratories. If you want to learn about these things, study Joseph Lstiburek and buildingscience.com
When your done are the outside of the walls foam?
Yes. The foam stays inside and out. The black plastic snap ties are what hold it all together while you pour concrete. Those ties are 8” on Center, they also serve for attachment of drywall on interior and rock, siding, stucco on the outside.
@@uptokode Could you put brick on the outside?
@@robertbrandywine Yes, Nudura and other ICF mfg'rs make special blocks with a "brick ledge" so that when filled with concrete and rebar they are designed to support the weight of brick, stone veneer or similar exterior finish.
Can you use ICF on radius walls and if not what is the remedies?
Yes you sure can!
I have checked out many homes made of ICF showing during construction the application of curved walls from minor to more extreme.
What is the cost material of icf a Lineal Ft. For 8" wall
+Justin Walls Square foot price of just the block is around $4.00. That's what we pay in Canada.
Kody Horvey
That's expensive Styrofoam
Do you have plans/kits! I am interested in building a single car garage
Thanks
What do you do when the styrofoam turns to dust and the plastic gets old and brittle in say 30 years? Do your walls just fall off and you are left with an ugly concrete wall with bits of plastic and insulation sticking out of it? This stuff looks great for the first owner but a nightmare to keep up or remodel for future generations.
Concrete if done right can last for 1,000 years. I can see your fear. After all the wooden homes fall apart it will still be fine.
kody, im going to build an ICF house, any way i can call you or send e mail questions? thanks
+Warren Wright Ya sure. Find my info on my website. www.uptokode.com
What the cost
Are these walls bullet proof? Another added bonus would be to live in a house that cannot be penetrated by small arms fire.
Joe Stubbernubbensteingenson Not totally sure if they are. Is 6" of concrete bullet proof? I would hate to assume that it is but isn't it?
Not sure... I saw a vid where 7" blocks were stopping a .300 Win-Mag (very high powered rifle). It'd be in interesting test, and a damn good selling point if they proved to actually be bullet proof. I, for one, would absolutely love to live in a house that is not able to be penetrated by small arms fire.
Pistols sure. 5.56 most likely. .308.....thats getting harder to predict. Brick veneer or full brick exterior would help alot while it lasted vs regular rifle calibers
.50 forget about it with 6" concrete.
I wouldnt want to depend on 6" of concrete alone. I am sure you could find military specs on what they would consider proof vs various calibers. Note....mil spec concrete involves alot more iron.
Joe Stubbernubbensteingenson Man if you need a bullet proof house your are living wrong, Lol but I see the advantage and wouldn't mind that myself. I'm just saying. But to be honest to make it better capable of stoping a bullet place a sheet of steel in between each of the dividers. You can go as far as cutting them to have complete cover or leave the 1/4" gap on top and bottom. It would work and the stopping capability would depend on what mil you chose. Now this will increase your cost exponentially obviously. Maybe just use this method on the front and one side or which ever side you expect the SWAT Team or EL CHAPO'S hit man to come from. If you do it I would use no less than 5/8" that would stand up to a 50 BMG from 100 yards away for at least 3-4 shots. But they would have to hit the exact spot every time. Must of the time it would just be non controlled spray from a 9 mil or 5.56 so you would be good.
The water proof system? You call one thing some people call it elephant skin, what is it called if I wanted to buy it. Sorry if I missed it.
Yes some call it elephant skin. Some call it colphene. Soprema is one brand name i know for a fact and a very good brand as we have used it quite a bit. Or call an ICF supplier and see what they use.
Not sure if you touch on this in another video, but I've heard that the "thermal mass" benefit of ICF construction is overrated for the following reason:
The concrete walls are insulated on the interior of the house, so all that heating/cooling you are doing is not reaching those 100,000lbs of concrete. I've heard that only the concrete floor (that is exposed) adds to the thermal mass of ICF construction.
That is false. Insulation doesn't work like that . Insulation will only slow heat and cold transfer; it doesn't block it. The thermal mass of ICF wall stores the heat or cold better than any wood frame insulated system and so the temperature in the home is more consistent which means your hvac system doesn't have to work as much. It even gets better when air draft affects are calculated such as external wind pressure,, the ICF wall dominates the wood frame systems. Overall costs with the ICF system like this one shown even beat 2x12 construction using R38! when tested in 3 test homes in 3 different climates cities in U.s. ICF walls dominate.
Great question and great answer below!
Thanks for a great answer Scott. If you know of any data like that I would appreciate a link or website. Any info that I can market for ICF the better for the whole industry!
the concrete is pulling up heat from the ground which I believe is 54 degrees, so it's not fluctuating like a wood wall
Do you know if you can bathroom baths out of ICF?
I don't see why not. There may be better alternatives but hey if you can make it happen who can fault you on that.
How about how these turn into napalm in any form of fire?
?? No they don't. They melt
What about gasses given off by the foam? Isn't this dangerous?
The light given off by the SUN is much more dangerous. The electricity in the walls is pretty dangerous too. Just to scare you.... after this is done it will be water tight. You could drown if the building fills up with water. Water is kindo dangerous too.... Wow... I guess everything is dangerous if used incorrectly.
ttraderjim yes, regardless of what the smart-asses above have to say, the off-gassing from the foam is definitely toxic.
And very dangerous if it is eaten or used in cooking !!!
No it isn't dangerous I haven't had any problems with my home it actually improves air quality
why is the cost so high on ICF when there's less labor ?
+Mike Murphy Mostly the cost of concrete.
The quality of the build
btw, last question Kode,
everything gives out poisonous gas slowly as it degrading.. that's why there is a saying that our home is killing us slowly - slow murdering us.
hence i hate to have styrofoam or any type of cheap plastic in the interior of house. i rather all the styrofoam panel insulation only at the outside of the house, hence our whole cement wall will be warm , which will act like thermal battery when we turn on the heater ..
i am right. ?
where i sleep in, i make the whole sleep room almost empty, not carpet, or plastic tile, not Styrofoam... at least i kept it to the minimum.. :=) i don't want to kill myself slowly.
i hope there might be system such like ICF, but no styrofoam on one side of it , which i can use it as interior.
anybody have more knowledge, pls correct me. thank you.
Thats a good point andrew ysk.
From what I have been looking at since finding ICF 10 years ago is some of companies offer a one side knock down system which is just plywood or other similar wood board that can be removed once the concrete is hardened enough. Thus if you want to insulate just the outside, the knockdown is great for this as the plastic ties keep the styrofoam side in place and offer fastening strips inside still for what ever exterior finish work. True that concrete makes a great thermal mass that once heated it can provide ambient warmth throughout the night, but then again the temp can drop drastically at night and thus one can install a floor heating system for added heating at night when required and once warmed up to set tmep it uses less energy to maintain the warmth.
In my opinion, having the inside bare is great for many situations succh as needing that extra interior space and for example in a Province of Canada they require a R22 value for new construction and thus those wo go traditional formwork know have to install an interior two by six inch framing for insulation. In that situation having that R22+ on the outside keeps the interior clear of that intrusive insulation for more interior space. Then again with bare concrete you now have to drill holes where you plan to mount something that requires anchoring, thus I rather go with thicker exterior insulation and standard 2 inch for interior and with the built in fastening strips I can just screw anything to the wall where those strips are. Not sure a stud finder can detect plastic fastenings.
Warehouses and those built for store use like Lowes/Walmarts would greatly benefit using ICF. as it reduces AC an Heating requirements and thus further reduces those running costs, Even more so in COld Storage warehouses with some offering Thicker concrete walls and thicker or deeper insulation for even less Refrigeration running costs.
That's why I am laying rock walls.
Would a fantastic HVAC system make a difference? get that Gas out as it forms and replace it with fresh air
Andrew, maybe it's a slow release, it looks like it takes 500 to a million years for Styrofoam to decompose. Throw some mud on inside of wall: ) Should worry more about fluoride in water, mercury in silver fillings and vaccines, preservatives, processed food, GMO's, MSG's, additives, aspartame in diet foods and drinks, ect.
The concrete is sandwiched and insulated between layers of foam.. The heat or cold from the concrete cannot enter the room to heat or cool it.
I would think that the two inches of foam on the inside of the ICF would not be thick enough to completely stop heat transfer from the cement to the inside of the home.
Not completely. But the main thing is insulation on the exterior of the main wall to stop the wall getting hot in the first place.
wrong. read my response to the guy above. insulation only slows heat or cold transfer. It doesn't stop it. That is precisely why ICF homes have more consistant temps inside because heat or cool air on the inside transfers slower to the outside or vice versa.
The insulation slows the heat travel, so the heat flows very slow. The concrete acts as a battery for the heat. Whichever side is cold is where the heat flows, it offsets the cold or heat by several hours so it can be hot outside during the day, but inside you have the night time temperature. By the end of the day the heat begins to soak thru and it warms the house at night. It never gets too hot/cold because the insulation does not permit the heat/cold to get extreme.
Well said! Thanks for commenting everyone!
Would be much better to use hot knife for carving lines for electrict wires instead chainsaw.
Is that a question or a statement? Just wondering your experience and what you prefer. Always multiple ways to achieve the same result.
Hot knife or carver is better since it produces no off cuts or static waste compared to using a saw of any kind, but better to use a sharp utility knife or heat knife instead of some saw which creates a bit of environmental mess. But the shaped heat knife is best since it creates a channel in one cut, and if your creative enough and got time can reuse the cut pieces as plugs but would still want to use adhesive foam spray fill.
Joshua79C C I have been building complete ICF homes for nearly 20 years. The hot knife which is most commonly suggested tool, creates a clean channel for building mechanical systems however it does produce considerable harmful fumes. I personally use a small electric chain saw fitted with a depth guide. It does produce some of a “snow” mess but easily cleaned up with a good shop vac.
Rebar holds concrete in tension. It does not provide tensile strength.
+Andrew Rouse Additionally, rebar is not sized in millimeters in the US. ICF typically uses #3 and #5 bar.
+Andrew Rouse Good way to put it!
Icf weather
Wow.. you can tell the trolls are out in force. There are only 2 or 3 smart comments per 10 - 12 posts. Geez... education is your friend, read a book.
Q: About ICF's in our imperfect world how would I see if, any cracks are forming, chipping, bending and bowing? What about the ones with insulation in the middle? I love the idea of the ICF's. Please get back with me and let me know.
They are also termite-proof. Carpenter ants can't eat them either. Bugs, mice and air pollution can't enter as easily either.
Thank you!!!
Ants in our area love to eat the foam
its like an ant farm in the foam after a few years
@@nigelm4273 are you spraying the foundation?
Logix sells a treated block. Not much more than standard block. We did the first three courses with this block. Been in our home three years and have had no bug issues at all.
Your point regarding fire proof isn't valid. If you have your roof or wall systems burning then the fire temperature is going to reach a point where the concrete starts spalling when the fire department tries to put out the fire making your concrete useless.
It is easy to limit fire load through controlling what you have inside the building (furniture, flooring, etc.). Applying one layer of 5/8" Type X sheetrock inside provides a one hour fire resistance before the foam is involved. Two layers yields a 2 hour firewall. Most houses become completely involved BECAUSE of the wooden structure. Recent history in California shows that shrubbery planted close to the building created the source of fuel to burn down the structure. Traditional stucco finishes provide additional fire resistance. BTW, the use of properly treated cellulose fiber has proved to be effective in limiting fire damage, actually containing it sufficiently to prevent buildings from becoming fully involved. Factually, nothing is fire proof. Only varying degrees of fire resistance. If it is really important to you sprinkler systems are the best way to limit fire damage. That and not engaging in careless living practices.
John Fitzgerald
Not terribly convincing: 1) footings are about the same for wood framing as for your ICF wall. 2) The wall itself is likely flammable so long as a source of heat is applied; I don't know if the fumes generated are toxic or not; 3) Yup, you have a lot of rebar in the walls. Why is it that the State of Michigan has discontinued the use of rebar and replaced it with fiberglass other than the expansion rate of rebar is different from the concrete?; 4) drainage systems do differ but on the house I built, I put down 4" to 6" of gravel, 6" schedule 35 perforated pipe, silting cloth and 6" of pea stone and another layer of silting cloth before backfill. Gutters and down spouts are connected to schedule 35 solid pipe and lead to an open area away from the hose; 5) the vapor barrier is applied over the OSB sheathing to the OUTSIDE of the house, followed by a layer of 5/8" Dow Board and another layer of vapor barrier. Siding of any kind can be applied over the surface. 6) I look at ICF construction as excess cost. My gas/electric bill for the last month with steady 90 degree temps on 2,300 sf. was about $120. In the winter I have yet to exceed $100. So there is no cost savings.
John Gritman
Not terribly convincing.
WOW, it must have been late at night when I wrote that comment. I actually spoke to a foreman working on the highway from Jackson MI to Ann Arbor MI because I only saw rebar on the cold joints (where they stop at night and restart in the morning). They carefully cut the new concrete to get a nice sharp vertical edge, drilled horizontal holes into the cured concrete, added solid 1" or more connecting rod and continued pouring. That was the answer I got - rebar expands/ contracts at a different rate than concrete. My concern was/is that Jesse needs to create an inverted "V" drain on the hill side of his house using 6" perforated pipe about 6" below the surface and lead the water around the house by connecting the perforated "V" to solid pipe that "runs to daylight. Using 6" pipe he can connect the gutter downspouts. The cost differential is very small when compared to 4" and a good rain storm will flush out any 6" pipe. I also don't understand the drain pipe in the cellar of the house.
big problem is the ants love the stuf and will eat your home,mine is being eaten at the moment.
I think your builder did something wrong my home is performing way above what I expected and I'm in Florida with multiple species of ants and I'm issues
ok? ... ok ... so
Your house is only as good as you're windows